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Tue Mar 12, 2019, 09:26 PM

It looks like trump's government shutdown may have some culpability for the 737 max 8 crash.

The software fix for the nose down issue was delayed for 5 weeks because of the shutdown.

This from the Rachel Maddow show tonight. Good job pres....good job.

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Reply It looks like trump's government shutdown may have some culpability for the 737 max 8 crash. (Original post)
Augiedog Mar 12 OP
Chin music Mar 12 #1
2naSalit Mar 12 #3
Doreen Mar 13 #16
2naSalit Mar 13 #23
RockRaven Mar 12 #2
2naSalit Mar 12 #4
still_one Mar 12 #5
uponit7771 Mar 12 #7
lostnfound Mar 13 #18
Demovictory9 Mar 12 #6
Leith Mar 12 #8
tinrobot Mar 12 #10
mahatmakanejeeves Mar 13 #27
haele Mar 13 #39
tinrobot Tuesday #44
lostnfound Mar 13 #19
watoos Mar 12 #9
sdfernando Mar 12 #12
Sherman A1 Mar 13 #33
sdfernando Mar 13 #37
Sgent Mar 13 #17
PoliticAverse Mar 13 #21
Tipperary Mar 13 #22
donkeypoofed Mar 13 #26
AZ8theist Mar 13 #38
benld74 Mar 12 #11
Ilsa Mar 12 #14
mr_lebowski Mar 13 #15
Doodley Mar 12 #13
lostnfound Mar 13 #25
Doodley Mar 15 #43
malaise Mar 13 #20
Paladin Mar 13 #24
Turbineguy Mar 13 #28
zaj Mar 13 #29
barbtries Mar 13 #35
zaj Mar 13 #36
barbtries Mar 13 #40
Honeycombe8 Mar 13 #30
calimary Mar 13 #31
MicaelS Mar 13 #32
Sherman A1 Mar 13 #34
Mopar151 Mar 13 #41
James48 Mar 13 #42

Response to Augiedog (Original post)

Tue Mar 12, 2019, 09:28 PM

1. So now people ARE dying.....

didn't guiliani say..."Hey..nobodies died."??

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Response to Chin music (Reply #1)

Tue Mar 12, 2019, 09:37 PM

3. I think he did.

Notice how he's, thankfully, disappeared from our screens?

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Response to 2naSalit (Reply #3)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 01:11 AM

16. Problem is he always shows back up just when he is needed to

take attention of of a current crappy issue. People just died and that is not crappy enough for him to show his ratty face. He wants to be around for living people who will suffer.

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Response to Doreen (Reply #16)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:31 AM

23. Good point...nt

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Response to Augiedog (Original post)

Tue Mar 12, 2019, 09:37 PM

2. Not to mention the apparent corruption of doing what is best for cronies' profits instead of

public safety. Why have all these other governments grounded these planes but the US FAA hasn't? Hmm?

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Response to RockRaven (Reply #2)

Tue Mar 12, 2019, 09:39 PM

4. Also the Sec of Transportation...

You now, McTurtle's wife, Elaine Chao.

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Response to Augiedog (Original post)

Tue Mar 12, 2019, 09:53 PM

5. Perhaps, but this is in the FAA and Boeing. They have a known issue and they both knew about it

for some time.

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Response to still_one (Reply #5)

Tue Mar 12, 2019, 09:58 PM

7. +1

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Response to still_one (Reply #5)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 07:18 AM

18. Horrifying and NOT normal. Rachel framed issue correctly..FAA has been gold standard

FAA has been the gold standard in the world
So upsetting to see this
Yet another decline in American leadership

I suspect that having an experienced FAA leader, and one of the previous CEOs at Boeing, would have made it likely that the fix would have been implemented in January no matter what.

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Response to Augiedog (Original post)

Tue Mar 12, 2019, 09:57 PM

6. kick

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Response to Augiedog (Original post)

Tue Mar 12, 2019, 10:12 PM

8. What prevented Boeing from looking into it?

This is not just a government or FAA thing. People have died because of a software glitch.

Somewhere there is a team of software engineers and testers who worked on this. Maybe because I used to be part of such a team (though we worked on accounting applications, not life-or-death matters), but I can't help but wonder what they have been thinking since the news came out of sudden nosedives and crashes that killed all on board.

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Response to Leith (Reply #8)

Tue Mar 12, 2019, 11:03 PM

10. They were, but whatever fix Boeing creates must meet FAA standards and approval.

The FAA dropped the ball during the shutdown, delaying progress on the fix.

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Response to tinrobot (Reply #10)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:45 AM

27. If you're upgrading the software of an Ethiopian-owned aircraft, why is the FAA involved?

Boeing can supply the upgrade to aircraft used outside the US without any need for the FAA to get involved, can't it?

I'm asking because I don't know the answer, not because I'm cleverly setting a trap.

Full disclosures: I am not an aeronautical engineer. I also cannot write code.

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Response to mahatmakanejeeves (Reply #27)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 05:16 PM

39. International Aviation Standards Certifications and Standards.

If a U.S. aircraft company developing fixes - or any modification to hardware or software on an airframe or airframe system, they need to be approved by the FAA before they can test the fixes on a live, flying aircraft. Same rules for aircraft companies in other countries. Fixes on anything that affects the operation of an aircraft cannot be modeled and sent out like a Windows 10 code update. The fix must be certified and the certification is published by the FAA.

If anyone accepts a modification on an aircraft system before it's certified by an acknowledged authorizing agency, they're fools.

Haele

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Response to mahatmakanejeeves (Reply #27)

Tue Mar 19, 2019, 10:21 AM

44. The exact same planes fly in the US and all over the world.

Boeing isn't just upgrading for Ethiopia. Any fixes they create will also be applied to US planes.

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Response to Leith (Reply #8)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 07:23 AM

19. True, but Software changes, flight tests...require major FAA participation

FAA approves the fixes, the schedule, the implementation plan, the test plan

Not a lot of hours compared to what OEM invests. But sort of like a red light/green light.

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Response to Augiedog (Original post)

Tue Mar 12, 2019, 10:53 PM

9. Trump was actually telling the truth,

in his mumbo jumbo Tweet about not wanting Einstein to fly his plane. Sometimes engineers go too far with their bells and whistles. The software problem is that the plane is making a correction and automatically dropping the nose after take-off. The pilots can switch to manual and bypass the computer. Looks like a case of over-engineering.

Daughter bought a car that if it rains the wipers come on automatically. Her husband took it to an automatic car wash and the wipers came on and he didn't know where to shut them off. It tore off one of the wiper blades.

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Response to watoos (Reply #9)

Tue Mar 12, 2019, 11:06 PM

12. I actually have a car like that

But you still actually have to turn the wipers on for the feature to work.

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Response to sdfernando (Reply #12)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 04:14 PM

33. We got a new Nissan Rogue this past year

and the radio starts automatically with the ignition. Drives me absolutely nuts as I don't want extra noise when I am getting settled in to drive and back up. Nissan says this is a Feature and not a Defect. We have different opinions about that and had I realized it when I bought the damn thing I would have gotten something else.

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Response to Sherman A1 (Reply #33)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 05:04 PM

37. I have a VW GTI and what I like about it

is that it remembers the state of things when you turn it off. For instance, on really cold mornings I'll turn on the heated seat and side mirror heaters...along with the radio. I often stop off for coffee, will leave everything alone and just turn off the car. When I return and turn on the ignition, its like I never turned it off. So if I turn off the radio before I shut off the car, it doen't come on automatically when I turn the car on again.

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Response to watoos (Reply #9)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 02:49 AM

17. Its not that simple

the airplane in question is inherently unstable in flight and tends to go nose up -- the fix to that is to use a fly by wire system which is used on modern airplanes.

The problem is that the 737 is an old, old design, and uses mechanical controls everywhere else, so Boeing bolted on this system (MCAS) to automatically nose down the airplane if certain conditions are met. They never bothered to put this in the manuals or tell any of the pilots about this system. Earlier 737's had a similar system that was not as critical, and even if activated would disengage by the pilot grabbing the stick and pulling -- on the new system you have to flip two switches.

The Lion air crash happened, and they told everyone about this new system, etc... but claimed that the Lion air crash was caused by poor maintenance (probably true somewhat) and training.

Ethiopia crashed, and they are generally known as a Tier 2 airline -- not necessarily American Airlines, Delta, British Airways, or Lufthansa, but just below that upper tier. Now everyone is freaking out.

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Response to Sgent (Reply #17)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:24 AM

21. The Max is different than the older 737's as the Max has different engines and this results...

in different stability of the resulting configuration.

From https://www.businessinsider.com/boeing-737-max-receive-updated-control-software-2019-3

At the heart of the controversy surrounding the 737 Max is MCAS, the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System. To fit the Max's larger, more fuel-efficient engines, Boeing had to redesign the way it mounts engines on the 737. This change disrupted the plane's center of gravity and caused the Max to have a tendency to tip its nose upward during flight, increasing the likelihood of a stall. MCAS is designed to automatically counteract that tendency and point the nose of the plane downward.

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Response to watoos (Reply #9)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:31 AM

22. He didn't know how to turn them off?

Lol, that made me laugh.

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Response to watoos (Reply #9)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:43 AM

26. The way he worded it though made it sound like he wants dumber pilots

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Response to watoos (Reply #9)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 05:12 PM

38. Sorry, wrong.

If Doturds lips were moving, or tiny fingers twitching, he was lying.

No matter what was said. There's a lie in there somewhere.

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Response to Augiedog (Original post)

Tue Mar 12, 2019, 11:04 PM

11. CEO Boeing called tRump to hold off on the

Grounding
Sarah told all
Too early to ground

From corporation mouth
To our safety concerns

tRump has all in control

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Response to benld74 (Reply #11)

Tue Mar 12, 2019, 11:26 PM

14. It's time to fly

Trump's Chao's, Sanders', and the Boeing CEO's kids only on that aircraft. See how they feel about that.

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Response to benld74 (Reply #11)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 12:29 AM

15. Whoa ... was that a haiku? (nt)

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Response to Augiedog (Original post)

Tue Mar 12, 2019, 11:16 PM

13. Bit premature when there is no report on the cause.

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Response to Doodley (Reply #13)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:40 AM

25. Phrase we AREN'T hearing: "out of an abundance of caution"

Boeing and US airlines may be 100% technically correct, but sometimes you do stuff to maintain confidence in the system and public perception.

Now, Europe, China, and others have taken the lead away. Boeing’s inaction created a vacuum.

Two new planes on takeoff and several complaints from pilots was enough to justify “an abundance of caution”.

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Response to lostnfound (Reply #25)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 02:54 AM

43. I was talking about the title of the thread.

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Response to Augiedog (Original post)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:36 AM

24. Great reporting by Rachel.

I hope there are a couple of massive class action suits in the works---one against Boeing, and another against trump.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #24)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:51 AM

28. Trump can blame it on the Mexicans

for refusing to pay for his wall.

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Response to Augiedog (Original post)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 12:40 PM

29. Sorry, but Boeing didn't shut down

The planes didn't stop flying.

I saw her segment, and it doesn't explain how the fix had to be stopped for 5 weeks.

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Response to zaj (Reply #29)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 04:23 PM

35. Boeing was working with FDA on it.

They were furloughed.

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Response to barbtries (Reply #35)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 04:31 PM

36. So Boeing and airlines stopped repairs to all...

... of their aircraft during the shutdown? Software changes are repairs. Updates are like swapping out parts. Does the FAA he save to approve all repairs like that?

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Response to zaj (Reply #36)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 05:56 PM

40. i don't think a software update

would be applied before it was tested and retested and it is my understanding that FAA had to sign off on it. According to Boeing, work stopped while the government was shut down. my impression is that the software was not in a ready state. i don't think it's been applied yet.

other than that, i don't know.

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Response to Augiedog (Original post)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 01:00 PM

30. How so? The planes are made by Boeing. Not the govt. nt

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Response to Augiedog (Original post)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 03:43 PM

31. All the crooked roads lead to trump.

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Response to Augiedog (Original post)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 04:04 PM

32. Not this time.

The FAA does not control the west of the world's aviation. Boeing is the one to blame here. They could have published an immediate fix and directive. Instead they stalled and people died. Boeing should get sued bigly.

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Response to MicaelS (Reply #32)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 04:16 PM

34. I agree

hope they are sued into the dirt.

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Response to MicaelS (Reply #32)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 06:41 PM

41. Wrong!!!

If the FAA has not approved the fix, it does not yet exist!

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Response to Augiedog (Original post)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 08:36 PM

42. The delay

Is because there has to be consensus between Boeing and the FAA over:

1. The scope of the problem
2. The root cause of the problem
3. The approach to fix the problem
4. The design of the software to address the problem
5. The actual production of a prototype fix software.
6. The verification of the software fix
7. Coordination and consensus of how the fix should be distributed.
8. Review and approval of publications associated with the fix
9. The actual distribution of the fix.
10. Verification that the fix resolved the problem, and does not cause any new problems.

At this moment, Boeing and the FAA are at step 4. The processes was delayed by about six weeks, because the furlough interrupted consensus on Steps 1,2 and 3.

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