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Sun Feb 10, 2019, 09:09 AM

If Fairfax were accused of any crime but rape, would he be forced to resign with no investigation?

Last edited Sun Feb 10, 2019, 09:43 AM - Edit history (1)

What if someone came forward and accused Gov. Northam of a hate crime in medical school, alleging that he picked him up in his car one night, took him to a field, tied a rope around his neck, threatened to lynch him and tormented him for hours with racial epithets and threats at gunpoint before dropping him off back in town and telling him he would kill him of he ever reported it. Northam said he did nothing of the kind but, instead he and the man went for a drive and sat out in a field drinking and talking before going their separate ways.

Would you assume, without more information that the accuser, a respected doctor, was telling the truth and that Northam must resign? If the statue of limitations had not yet run, would you want the accuser to press charges or would you say he didn't need to try to prosecute the crime but, instead, his word is enough because so much time had passed?

Rape is different than any other crime in its impact and trauma on the victim, so it must be treated differently in some respects. But must it be treated differently in ALL respects, particularly in terms of suspending all due process?

And should the fact that a crime has a unique impact on a victim - like a hate crime - change the due process rights of the person accused of committing it?

I say no.

I've seen people here insist that, although Dr. Tyson has publicly Lt. Gov. Fairfax of a crime, she has no responsibility for charging him but, instead, is well within her rights to simply make the public accusation and not go any further.

And some people are also saying that, now that the allegation has been made, Fairfax must bear all of the consequences he would have incurred had he actually been convicted of a crime short of being incarcerated and being legally declared a felon. He must relinquish his job, lose his political career and forever be stigmatized as a sexual predator and a criminal, without ever having an opportunity to defend himself or require his accuser to be held to her
proof, as other persons in this country who are accused of any other crime are entitled to do.

Sexual assault victims advocates have fought to change the way victims are viewed and treated in the judicial system and society. But they did not create a new and separate extra-judicial process for charging and punishing individuals for crimes without any opportunity to defend themselves.

I don't know whether Fairfax raped Tyson. And neither, at this point, does anyone else other than the two of them. We can try to weigh their credibility but, in truth, we don't know these people. Tyson could be as honest as the day is long. She could also be a stone-cold liar. Fairfax could be an honest young man who would never and has never harmed any woman. He could also be a rapist. I don't know and neither do you. Claiming we can judge the credibility of either of these people at this stage because of what they do for a living, how educated they are, or what we read about them is foolish.

But I do know it is wrong to assume an allegation, especially one as serious as rape, should be treated as a conviction is wrong. People may think it's justified in this case. But the next time, it could be YOUR husband or son or brother or friend who's accused and I am very sure you would not want them to be treated as Fairfax is.

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Reply If Fairfax were accused of any crime but rape, would he be forced to resign with no investigation? (Original post)
Empowerer Sunday OP
njhoneybadger Sunday #1
marble falls Sunday #2
Empowerer Sunday #4
marble falls Sunday #6
kcr Sunday #17
bdamomma Sunday #20
Squinch Sunday #3
Empowerer Sunday #5
boston bean Sunday #7
Empowerer Sunday #8
Squinch Sunday #11
Empowerer Sunday #12
EffieBlack Sunday #13
bdamomma Sunday #21
Squinch Sunday #23
Beakybird Sunday #9
Baltimike Sunday #10
PTWB Sunday #14
EffieBlack Sunday #15
PTWB Sunday #16
EffieBlack Sunday #18
PTWB Sunday #19
bdamomma Sunday #22
PTWB Sunday #25
peggysue2 Sunday #24
Fresh_Start Sunday #26
Empowerer Sunday #27
Fresh_Start Sunday #28
Empowerer Sunday #29
Fresh_Start Sunday #30
Empowerer Sunday #31
Fresh_Start Sunday #32
Empowerer Sunday #33
Fresh_Start Sunday #34
Ms. Toad Sunday #35
Cold War Spook Sunday #36

Response to Empowerer (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 09:13 AM

1. Would the people calling for him to resign do the same

If it were their father, husband, son or brother

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Response to Empowerer (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 09:17 AM

2. Murder? Embezzlement? DUI?

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Response to marble falls (Reply #2)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 09:21 AM

4. If he were accused of any of those crimes, would you just take the accuser's word with no investigat

or evidence that a crime had been committed or that he committed it other than the accuser's word?

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Response to Empowerer (Reply #4)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 09:37 AM

6. This isn't my interest. Its the interest of VA voters. I was answering your question ...

My feelings about this is complicated and not jelled. I think ignoring women and the crimes and violence committed against them is a big chicken coming home to roost.

I question the timing of the accusations but I also know how being raped is not something any woman wants made public until it starts to tear them apart. If we as a society had started taking women as seriously as we should have a long time ago, we'd not be in this fix. I think that the literally tens of thousands of unprocessed rape kits in this country even years after the scandal of unprocessed rape kits was exposed only show we still haven't dealt with it.

A white guy basically accused of the same thing withstood a confirmation hearing in Congress and got put on the SCOTUS.

I'm afraid we will see more of this. A lot more. And there is no easy for justice. For either party.

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Response to marble falls (Reply #6)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 01:23 PM

17. But their actions in this matter affect us all, though.

The extreme view that the accused should immediately resign is bait for political weaponization. If they force him out with no investigation, it just makes that weapon all the more attractive. The Right plays dirty and they're only getting worse.

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Response to kcr (Reply #17)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 01:30 PM

20. It does affect us all.

Investigations are needed in these kind of cases. Due process of the law. But then again, we see how the right doesn't believe in the practice of law.

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Response to Empowerer (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 09:19 AM

3. Yes. Happens all the time. I support having an investigation

but this is a silly question.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #3)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 09:26 AM

5. Can you give an example of anyone forced to resign based on one allegation of a crime

with no corroboration or other evidence and no investigation?

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Response to Empowerer (Reply #5)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 09:40 AM

7. There are two. Not one allegation.

As a matter of fact there were no calls for his resignation from any democrat until the second accuser came forward.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #7)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 09:44 AM

8. Ok, can you name anyone else forced to resign based on two uncorroborated allegations

with no investigation?

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Response to Empowerer (Reply #8)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 12:16 PM

11. I'll let you pick through these to find some:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_political_sex_scandals_in_the_United_States

Many were based only on an accuser's allegations. Some ended political careers, some did not.

The concept of "dead girl or live boy" is as old as the Constitution.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #11)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 01:04 PM

12. You made an assertion, you should support it

It's not on me to "pick through" some Wikipedia page on "Sex Scandals."

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Response to Squinch (Reply #11)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 01:07 PM

13. Since it's YOUR source, why don't YOU "pick through" and select a few for us to discuss?

For example, which of the 50 or so sex scandals listed on this Wikiepedia page resulted in resignations based solely on an accusation (and not an admission or investigation or other corroboration or evidence)?

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Response to Squinch (Reply #11)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 03:30 PM

21. Wow

unbelievable list of sexual scandals. The ones most hypocritical were those who called for others to resign ended up resigning due to themselves committing sexual misconduct.

I often think would there be a long list like this for women?????

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Response to bdamomma (Reply #21)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 03:34 PM

23. And that's just Federal level. State would be a whole nother list, much longer.

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Response to Empowerer (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 09:59 AM

9. "He murdered me in college. I'm a zombie."

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Response to Empowerer (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 10:04 AM

10. I support an investigation. nt

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Response to Empowerer (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 01:13 PM

14. Assuming the statute of limitations has expired whose job is it to conduct this investigation?

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Response to PTWB (Reply #14)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 01:14 PM

15. The statute of limitations hasn't expired in either case

The 15-year statute of limitations in Massachusetts is still running. North Carolina doesn't have a statute of limitations.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #15)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 01:21 PM

16. If it isn't expired is the investigation being conducted?

Or are the police ignoring it ?

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Response to PTWB (Reply #16)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 01:24 PM

18. Police aren't ignoring it. They can't start an investigation without a complaint from the accuser

And, so far, neither woman has gone to the police and pressed charges, even though they have publicly accused him of committing the crime.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #18)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 01:26 PM

19. Well as credible as they are if they're not willing to report it...

I donít think Lt Gov Fairfax should be run through the ringer. If there can be a process there should be a process.

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Response to PTWB (Reply #19)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 03:32 PM

22. Welcome to DU!

I agree the process for investigation is being shoved under the rug.

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Response to bdamomma (Reply #22)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 04:57 PM

25. Thank you!

It is nice to have a place to fit in. Seems like really good people here.

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Response to Empowerer (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 04:04 PM

24. One of the questions I'm curious about in the rape allegation is . . .

Watson claims that she and Justin Fairfax were friends at Duke but not romantically involved. We know the woman made a rape complaint against a Duke basketball player. From the reported story the school's Dean dismissed that allegation or refused to follow the complaint up.

If this young woman and Fairfax were friends, I'd be curious about his opinion on the original allegation: Did he support her at the time? Or not?

I'm curious about that answer because her other claim is that Fairfax ridiculed/taunted her after he allegedly raped her, saying he knew he could get away with it because of the first allegation had been rebuffed.

I don't know but there's something very strange about this whole thing. In addition to the timing.

We really need testimony and additional details to sort these charges out before any resignations. Justin Fairfax is scheduled to make a public statement tomorrow.

Btw, what other charge/crime would be equally damaging? Child molestation.

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Response to Empowerer (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 05:08 PM

26. Northam was being pressured to resign without any crime

so yes, I believe accusations of a different crimes even without an investigation could lead to being forced to resign.

Senator Franken was not accused of rape and was forced to resign.




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Response to Fresh_Start (Reply #26)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 05:16 PM

27. Pressure on northam to resign is not based on an accusation

There was clear evidence and he even admitted to the wrongdoing. There was no need for an investigation.

But that wasn't my question. Can you answer the question I asked?

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Response to Empowerer (Reply #27)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 05:24 PM

28. I did answer your question.

I said I believed that accusation of other crimes would lead to being forced to resign.

My support,
Franken was forced to resign without any rape accusations.
Northam was being forced to resign without any crime.


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Response to Fresh_Start (Reply #28)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 05:29 PM

29. If someone claimed that Northam had committed a brutal hate crimes against him

that uncorroborated accusation would be enough for you to want him to step down?

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Response to Empowerer (Reply #29)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 05:33 PM

30. most probably yes

only reason for qualification is I'm not sure what precisely is meant by a brutal hate crime

btw, I don't view the accusations against Fairfax as unsubstantiated.

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Response to Fresh_Start (Reply #30)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 05:34 PM

31. I explicitly describef the hypothetical hate crime in my OP

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Response to Empowerer (Reply #31)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 05:37 PM

32. for that hate crime

with the same amount of supporting evidence that Fairfax accusers have provided, i would definitely want him out of office

no hesitation

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Response to Fresh_Start (Reply #32)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 05:53 PM

33. Thanks

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Response to Empowerer (Reply #33)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 05:58 PM

34. I think the bar for losing a job is far lower than the bar for being imprisoned

I think the woman who gave trump the finger when he was on a motorcade to Mar-a-lago lost her job.
There is the cartoonist who lost his job because he made cartoons critical of Trump.

....

I could lose my job most likely for yelling at my coworkers or making inappropriate remarks at work.

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Response to Empowerer (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 06:37 PM

35. This is essentially Kavanaugh's cry,

and the conservative meme that kept popping up on my facebook feed during the Kavanaugh hearings:

Think of the innocent boys, your husand, son, brother, etc.



How many times, before #MeToo did you hear - think of the survivors - it could be your wife, your daughter, your sister? Not very often. It is only when rapists who have always been getting away with rape because women are perceived as inherently untrustworthy start to be held accountable that they, and their defenders, are desperately trying to claw back every inch that #MeToo and #WhyIDidNotReport gained.

Stop conflating a survivor's right to speak out about what she endured - or to remain silent - or any combination thereof - with how society, in a non-criminal contect, responds.

The survivor has an absolute right to speak out - or not - in whatever forum she chooses. If Fairfax believes he has been defamed, his remedies are to counter her statement - or to sue her for defamation. Both are likely to result in more survivors coming forward - but he is certainly free to pursue either remedy.

If he is impeached he will have the due process you are so concerned about. As Lt. Governor, he has the right to due process via an impeachment hearing before he is involuntarily removed from office.

Short of that you, and everyone else are free to take sides and suggest he should voluntarily resign - or not. Just as he is free to take your advice, or not. There are no due process rights associated with voluntarily resigning from your job. Period.

But NONE of this creates an obligation on the survivor of this brutal rape to pursue criminal charges, speak to journalists, etc. Once the rape ended, she has the absolute right to say, "No more. I am done. Having been raped does not mean being under control of the rapist (or others doing his bidding). Period,

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Response to Empowerer (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 06:50 PM

36. I don't care if a man wore blackface or was accused of committing rape.

One is not a crime and it is up to the people in the state or district to decide what should be done. The other is a crime and should be investigated. Until the investigation shows that the person probably committed the crime I want a guilty verdict before he is removed. Until it is changed, do what the Constitution tells us to do.

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