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Sun Feb 10, 2019, 12:49 AM

Guilty before tried.

Its 2019 and when the past comes out; we all quickly judge and sentence without even have a trial.

For instance, has the yearbook in question actually been check to see if authentic? Most people give their photos back then to the yearbook staff and never get the yearbook. Considering his profession as a doctor, doubt he had time to actually review it once it came out mouths after graduation.

35 years ago, one has to stop and remember what grade, job, your residence was; let alone what party they may of been.

Without hard evidence, for all we can really know, that could be a bad prank from a yearbook staffer or it could be him. For now; innocent until proven guilty. That is our legal system. No criminal law was broken; but moral law may of been if indeed was him.

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Arrow 17 replies Author Time Post
Reply Guilty before tried. (Original post)
Smackdown2019 Feb 10 OP
Fuzzpope Feb 10 #1
Hortensis Feb 10 #2
Hortensis Feb 10 #3
Demsrule86 Feb 10 #4
Smackdown2019 Feb 10 #5
Hortensis Feb 10 #6
Demsrule86 Monday #7
Hortensis Monday #8
Demsrule86 Monday #10
Hortensis Monday #13
Demsrule86 Monday #14
WeekiWater Monday #9
Demsrule86 Monday #11
WeekiWater Monday #12
Demsrule86 Monday #15
WeekiWater Monday #16
Hortensis Monday #17

Response to Smackdown2019 (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 05:31 AM

1. Has anybody even..

Cross referenced this specific yearbook containing the offensive image against other yearbooks?

To make sure that the one being cited as evidence is actually legit and not a tweaked copy?

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Response to Smackdown2019 (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 06:06 AM

2. Beats me, but the shift of discussions to principles

has turned this forum's attitudes somewhat. Perhaps that's only a natural progression after the initial very emotional reactions, but it's a good one that might, who knows, "take" and affect reactions next time? There will be next times, of course.

If the same were to be happening "out there" in the homes of enough Democrats, it might just seriously damage the efficacy of these Republican attacks, including the devastating she says/he says ones.

I suspect the Nasty Inquirer attack on Bezos may have done Democrats a lot of good by heightening awareness of viciously partisan attacks on individuals. People who pride themselves on their cleverness in despising both parties have extremely slow learning curves, to put it mildly, but the Bezos's pecker story will have grabbed attention even from those types.

As for whether anyone's examined the yearbooks, I think we should assume it's not a fake. Lots of people have one, the school will have them, the ones journalists examine will be different from the one the Big League Politics group used. Plus, journalists have been mining years of them for things to point out, and that's in their reporting.

The rest? The photo could be miscaptioned, but corroboration should have come out by now. Northam's denied it's him etcetera, created delay by refusing to resign, been meeting with black legislators and groups -- apparently still calling for him to resign, and is trying to move the discussion to making racial equality a focus for the rest of his term. He says he now understands that white privilege has always included getting the kind of second chances denied to POC...

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Response to Smackdown2019 (Original post)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 07:31 AM

3. Lt. Gov. Fairfax is requesting FBI investigation now.

Anyone know what factors would call for the FBI to get involved?

Don't understand this, but from the WaPo regarding the issue of investigation,

"In a second tweet, he said that because the alleged sexual assaults occurred in Massachusetts and North Carolina, “the impeachment process is the only way for Virginia to have the investigation that LG Fairfax has demanded.”

***

Among those calling for resignation, apparently believing investigation could not provide the necessary degree of exoneration or confidence in innocence:

The Democratic Party of Virginia said Saturday morning that the credible nature of the allegations against Fairfax mean he can no longer do his job. “While the Lieutenant Governor deserves due process in this matter, it is in the best interest of the Commonwealth that he goes through this process as a private citizen,” party chairwoman Susan Swecker said in a statement.

Virginia House of Delegates Speaker Kirk Cox (R-Colonial Heights) joined the chorus of voices calling for Fairfax to resign. “I deeply respect the principle of due process and believe that the gravity of this situation demands prudence and deliberation,” he said in a statement. “But the Lt. Governor has clearly lost the trust and confidence of the people of Virginia. His ability to serve has been permanently impaired and, at this point, it is in the best interests of the Commonwealth for him to resign.”

Also Friday, the Democratic Lieutenant Governors Association released a statement saying Fairfax had been replaced as chairman before his term was up. The organization did not return calls seeking comment on how it arrived at that decision.

By Saturday night, national Democrats with presidential aspirations, as well as the legislature’s Democratic caucuses in the House and Senate, the influential Virginia Legislative Black Caucus, six of the state’s seven Democratic members of Congress and Sen. Tim Kaine (D), called for Fairfax to step down.

Rep. Robert C. “Bobby” Scott (D-Va.), the dean of the congressional delegation, and Sen. Mark R. Warner (D-Va.) stopped short of calling on Fairfax to resign but said he must if the allegations are true.

***

Attorney General Mark R. Herring (D) revealed he dressed in blackface in college. He has escaped calls to resign from leaders who credit him with coming forward and taking responsibility for the behavior.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #3)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 07:44 AM

4. I am inclined to vote for somone else in a primay than those clamoring for Fairfax's resignation

without an investigation. I do not know the truth and neither do they. I want a Democratic president who will fight the GOP not cave to what I think are GOP dirty tricks. I am also going to have to' resign' from the me too movement if it means that every accusation will be believed without question or investigation...the GOP are amazing dirty tricksters and no doubt will have help from their Russian friends. Time to circle the wagons and fight back.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #4)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 08:56 AM

5. Here here

My exact thoughts!

Rushing to quickly condemn someones political career on the basis of evidence that has not been proven quilty is not what a true Democrat is. A statement to condone the evidence is necessary, but not the person accused, for his has process until proven guilty.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #4)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 10:57 AM

6. With you, though I see acting fast to neutralize these

as fighting off attacks, not caving. We need better ways of defusing these attacks, of course, but the angry people were our own, not Republicans, and their demands must be responded to promptly and simply cannot be ignored -- that could be disastrous, falling right into the death traps the GOP keeps setting for our party.

They've always relied heavily on dirty tricks; but over the past 30 years as they've increasingly had to fight for their survival, they've abandoned all limits on what they will do to win.

So far there's been little cost to them -- their voters are proud of their dirty operations. All costs are being levied on us by us and to their benefit no matter what action we take, or don't.

We can't attack in kind against any of hundreds of very deserving racist and rapist Republicans, of course. We'd not only repel our own people, but they'd end up bragging about what superior beasts their men are and promising to elect more. "Never try to play chess with a pigeon..."

It's encouraging, though, to see many here moving fairly quickly from righteous outrage to reaction against injustice. Perhaps that's happening among many other observers too; and perhaps like what #metoo signifies, society will become better for it, and, specifically, decent voters harder to manipulate and exploit.

With you on #metoo also. Probably we're seeing some evolution away from extremism there also? While the offenses of oppressing groups are huge and tragic, and ongoing, the only just consequences for individuals are proportional to their own offenses.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #6)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:45 AM

7. One of my brother's friends had a an ex-girl friend call his employer and claim he committed

some sort of sexual misconduct. This woman has been calling and texting wanting to get back together for over a year. The man was fired. It is ridiculous to assume women never lie about these matters. The friend is heading to civil court, and I hope he wins... those sort of suits are tricky. Our side has to do a better job in fighting back against the GOP...and I will consider that in an primary vote. I will of course vote for the Democrat in the general. And can I just add off topic. Schultz is a liar. He is trying to re-elect Trump and the idea that Starbucks pays decent wages and offer insurance to part time employees is a lie. He changed the insurance in 16 so employees could pick only the insurance they 'need'...like buying a car don't you know And my furture daughter in law works there. She started at $9.00 per hour and is kept at around 20 hours a week so she can't afford to buy the insurance. I am in the process of getting her on Medicaid. I wish the media would expose the truth about Starbucks.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #7)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:07 AM

8. Huh! If Schultz stays in, Starbucks will be exposed.

That sounds so sadly typical. These are very mean times, and exploitation the virtue of power.

A girlfriend of our son attacked him physically during an argument and then maliciously called the police to claim he attacked her. She basically hoped to have him prosecuted and jailed to win the argument, a degree of viciousness I still can't get around. He called me to come because he was afraid of what was going to happen, but the police arrested her for attacking him. She was trying to pretend he'd injured her wrist, but he was the one who was scratched and bleeding and needed stitches in the ER where she'd torn his mouth while he was trying to hold her off.

This was actually the second time she'd tried to get him charged with assault and jail time when she became angry-mean, the first was in another county. She was extremely pretty and charming (as you can imagine she must have been!) and after some time had coaxed him into trying again. This time he was more than glad to see the last of her, though she took with her some of their common friends who believed her tearful stories of his abuse.

I even had one tell me to my face how our son attacked her (he felt I should know), and the fact that I was a witness and being told that our son was still friends with a number of past girlfriends cut no ice with him whatsoever. I did hope my warning to him to nevertheless be careful around her wasn't so completely dismissed.

Just had a moment of satisfaction that our son is unlikely to ever run for public office. Good thing.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #8)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:31 AM

10. Dear God...how awful for you. The fact is both sexes lie at times...and to ruin a career

based on an accusation is wrong. I have no idea who is telling the truth. Even Sherrod Brown has been attacked in this way because during a divorce from his first wife there were allegations of spousal abuse...the GOP has tried to use it against him unsuccessfully numerous times but his ex-wife says it isn't true...

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #10)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:50 AM

13. We can't allow "the accusation establishes the guilt" to continue

to be such a powerful weapon. Overdoing its use hopefully will eventually weaken it by educating even those sectors of the public who resist understanding.

May be happening now. I'm overall not just entertained ( ) but hopeful about the contribution Bezos's pecker has inadvertently made to the national dialogue.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #13)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:04 PM

14. Haha... you are right. The accusation establishes guilt is an excellent way to explain it.

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Response to Smackdown2019 (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:20 AM

9. Your op attempts to attach two things that cannot be attached.

The court of public opinion and the legal system.

Innocent until proven guilty is a legal construct and is not and should not be a part of public opinion. Both the legal system and the court of public opinion can result in punitive measures but one does not abide by "until proven guilty". I know of no one who holds that standard with respect to their own opinion on matters.

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Response to WeekiWater (Reply #9)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:34 AM

11. There is no such thing as the 'court of public opinion' . period end of story.

And no one should have his/her reputation besmirched and then be told...ah well the polls show that public opinion is against you so we are going to punish you. You can't be serious. The true irony here is that sort of thing led to beatings, lynchings and other horrific acts .

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #11)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:42 AM

12. When a concept is understood by everyone.

Then it stands.

There sure is a court of public opinion. It's a concept understood by all and has its own ramifications. Every bit of it is real.

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Response to WeekiWater (Reply #12)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:06 PM

15. That is totally wrong. The public is often wrong. Another poster said this

An accusation does not establish guilt.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #15)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 01:02 PM

16. An accusation does not establish guilt in a court of law.

It can, to an extent, in the court of public opinion. That is dependent on enough opinions of individuals.

I don't see it as a major problem. Sometimes it is unfair, sometimes it is not. There have been many times where the court of public opinion has gotten it right when the court system has gotten it wrong.

They are two separate things.

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Response to WeekiWater (Reply #12)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 03:26 PM

17. Yes. Many "courts of public opinion" spring up initially,

some principled and thoughtful,
some carried away by partisan passions and focused on prevailing regardless of principle, and
some merely personal indulgences that should not have been indulged without consideration of principle.

In the end, one has its way. Or not.

When things go right, the first is joined by others. I think we may be seeing that develop. And this is where good people meet and agree.

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