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Thu Feb 7, 2019, 10:20 AM

Can the Democratic Party disapprove of something/someone and also not give up power?


Handing the leadership of a state over the GOP does a lot more harm to the cause of oppressed people in that state than acknowledging some flaw in the human(s) that represent the party. We aren't likely to find a lot of people without mistakes or flaws.

Could we, for example, officially rebuke or sanction them? Pledge not to support them in the next primary? Have them really meet and talk with representatives of the groups they have wronged? Demand a full investigation? Demand that the person involved step down but retain the power of the successful election, so as not to shaft all of the voters who came out for Democrats?

I'll say it again - Democrats would rather be beyond reproach than in power. And Republicans would _much_ rather be in power than be beyond reproach.

Giving up power doesn't always mean that we value the people harmed - especially if it leads to more harm. Blackface and KKK costumes definitely cross _way_ over lines. But is the result that we have to empower the VA GOP?

The position seems to be "well, you got us. Our politician is a flawed human being. Therefore we are going to throw away all of the work, money, and time spent getting them elected. And be sure to vote for Democrats next time, it's totally worth it."

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Reply Can the Democratic Party disapprove of something/someone and also not give up power? (Original post)
ProfessorPlum Feb 2019 OP
LongtimeAZDem Feb 2019 #1
ProfessorPlum Feb 2019 #3
Texin Feb 2019 #41
ProfessorPlum Feb 2019 #52
EveHammond13 Feb 2019 #76
HopeAgain Feb 2019 #2
LongtimeAZDem Feb 2019 #6
HopeAgain Feb 2019 #13
LongtimeAZDem Feb 2019 #20
EveHammond13 Feb 2019 #78
LanternWaste Feb 2019 #123
ProfessorPlum Feb 2019 #129
LAS14 Feb 2019 #7
HopeAgain Feb 2019 #15
LAS14 Feb 2019 #21
LongtimeAZDem Feb 2019 #53
LAS14 Feb 2019 #65
ProfessorPlum Feb 2019 #8
HopeAgain Feb 2019 #16
uponit7771 Feb 2019 #9
HopeAgain Feb 2019 #17
uponit7771 Feb 2019 #19
HopeAgain Feb 2019 #24
ProfessorPlum Feb 2019 #27
HopeAgain Feb 2019 #28
ProfessorPlum Feb 2019 #31
treestar Feb 2019 #92
idahoblue Feb 2019 #127
HopeAgain Feb 2019 #132
theboss Feb 2019 #45
HopeAgain Feb 2019 #133
uponit7771 Feb 2019 #32
EveHammond13 Feb 2019 #80
MadDAsHell Feb 2019 #138
ProfessorPlum Feb 2019 #25
HopeAgain Feb 2019 #37
ProfessorPlum Feb 2019 #38
HopeAgain Feb 2019 #39
LongtimeAZDem Feb 2019 #56
HopeAgain Feb 2019 #58
LongtimeAZDem Feb 2019 #62
treestar Feb 2019 #94
ProfessorPlum Feb 2019 #96
doompatrol39 Feb 2019 #4
ProfessorPlum Feb 2019 #10
rpannier Feb 2019 #44
ProfessorPlum Feb 2019 #12
LAS14 Feb 2019 #5
dalton99a Feb 2019 #11
ProfessorPlum Feb 2019 #33
spooky3 Feb 2019 #98
NCChomskyan Feb 2019 #14
jberryhill Feb 2019 #18
LAS14 Feb 2019 #22
jberryhill Feb 2019 #49
Johnny2X2X Feb 2019 #23
CTAtheist Feb 2019 #137
Skinner Feb 2019 #26
ProfessorPlum Feb 2019 #29
jberryhill Feb 2019 #50
awesomerwb1 Feb 2019 #30
In It to Win It Feb 2019 #34
treestar Feb 2019 #99
In It to Win It Feb 2019 #107
treestar Feb 2019 #112
spooky3 Feb 2019 #101
ProfessorPlum Feb 2019 #108
spooky3 Feb 2019 #110
ProfessorPlum Feb 2019 #113
ProfessorPlum Feb 2019 #114
spooky3 Feb 2019 #118
bigtree Feb 2019 #35
ProfessorPlum Feb 2019 #36
bigtree Feb 2019 #42
ProfessorPlum Feb 2019 #51
bigtree Feb 2019 #57
ProfessorPlum Feb 2019 #67
bigtree Feb 2019 #73
DirtEdonE Feb 2019 #46
bigtree Feb 2019 #47
ProfessorPlum Feb 2019 #54
bigtree Feb 2019 #61
ProfessorPlum Feb 2019 #64
bigtree Feb 2019 #68
ProfessorPlum Feb 2019 #79
treestar Feb 2019 #102
bigtree Feb 2019 #109
treestar Feb 2019 #111
bigtree Feb 2019 #115
treestar Feb 2019 #116
bigtree Feb 2019 #117
DirtEdonE Feb 2019 #59
bigtree Feb 2019 #63
ProfessorPlum Feb 2019 #66
DirtEdonE Feb 2019 #69
bigtree Feb 2019 #71
DirtEdonE Feb 2019 #93
bigtree Feb 2019 #106
DirtEdonE Feb 2019 #120
bigtree Feb 2019 #121
DirtEdonE Feb 2019 #122
bigtree Feb 2019 #124
DirtEdonE Feb 2019 #126
bigtree Feb 2019 #70
ProfessorPlum Feb 2019 #75
bigtree Feb 2019 #81
ProfessorPlum Feb 2019 #86
bigtree Feb 2019 #91
ProfessorPlum Feb 2019 #95
bigtree Feb 2019 #105
DirtEdonE Feb 2019 #97
treestar Feb 2019 #103
treestar Feb 2019 #100
DirtEdonE Feb 2019 #40
ZeroSomeBrains Feb 2019 #43
Honeycombe8 Feb 2019 #48
brooklynite Feb 2019 #55
defacto7 Feb 2019 #77
spooky3 Feb 2019 #119
questionseverything Feb 2019 #128
Baltimike Feb 2019 #60
EveHammond13 Feb 2019 #72
EveHammond13 Feb 2019 #74
ProfessorPlum Feb 2019 #83
EveHammond13 Feb 2019 #85
jberryhill Feb 2019 #82
ProfessorPlum Feb 2019 #89
Honeycombe8 Feb 2019 #136
treestar Feb 2019 #84
shanny Feb 2019 #87
ProfessorPlum Feb 2019 #90
LongtimeAZDem Feb 2019 #104
lancelyons Feb 2019 #88
DirtEdonE Feb 2019 #125
dflprincess Feb 2019 #130
Duppers Feb 2019 #131
TheRealNorth Feb 2019 #134
Honeycombe8 Feb 2019 #135

Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 10:29 AM

1. Exactly

If we're uncomfortable with a Democrat who might be racist, what is to be gained by handing the office over to the Republicans?

Politics is not, sadly, a place for the pure.

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Reply #1)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 10:32 AM

3. Right?

the GOP alternative probably was in blackface last year.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #3)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 11:50 AM

41. Hell, professor, it was last week!

I don't know whether someone can be forced to resign a seat that was legitimately won unless there is a legislative move to impeach and remove him/them. These men were duly elected by the voters. The people of Virginia - or any other state in which something like this happens - can usually have a recall election if there is enough popular consensus to make that happen, and the process is defined by state statute in most instances. Wisconsin went through that back in, what was it, 2008 or so. They successfully initiated a recall election, but Walker won that round too. If the people of Virginia feel strongly enough about it, they can make that happen. And it might be a way that the rethugs could retake both political offices (i.e., governor and lt. governor - or whatever office Fairfax holds), but it should be up to the constituents of Virginia. I think those that have been urging/demanding Northam resign have done all they should do. At the end of the day, it's as likely that any replacement of Northam would be as racist as he must have been. It's ingrained in the population there. I know that sounds like a sweeping indictment of the entire state's population, but the South is steeped in it. And the average Caucasian person running for high office (governor, senate, etc.), is usually an attorney (unless they're a rethug, who are typically former business execs these days), are going to have come from middle to affluent families and gone to more "elite" universities, i.e., the southern equivalent of the Ivy League.

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Response to Texin (Reply #41)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 12:25 PM

52. good point, sadly

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #3)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:11 PM

76. +1

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 10:31 AM

2. I'm just not a fan of hypocrisy

Should I be?

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #2)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 10:34 AM

6. Neither am I. When you find a political system that allows for the drafting of perfect candidates

I'm on board.

Until then, the planet is heating up, and the oil is running out.

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Reply #6)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 10:44 AM

13. So that goes for Republicans too?

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #13)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 10:52 AM

20. Actually, yes. But, again, this is not about candidates for cannonization.

This is about making laws, and setting policy, and directing the future of the country.

Because the planet is heating up, and the oil is running out.

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Reply #20)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:12 PM

78. Rs are much more savvy about strategy, while "good guys finish last" Dems keep getting trampled on

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Reply #6)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 04:58 PM

123. Asking that our candidates have no history of overt racism or misogyny is not asking for perfection.

Asking that our candidates have no history of overt racism or misogyny is not asking for perfection. It's simply requiring them to be, and to have been good people who make, and have consistently made good decisions in favor of idiot decisions.

It's not asking for unicorns. Just for good people.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #123)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 05:28 PM

129. i agree, for the most part

this is a particularly bad case. And also handled poorly. How do we deal with it while also not helping the Republicans?

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #2)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 10:37 AM

7. Did the OP suggest that we should be hypocrites? There have been times...

... when Republicans have faced similar challenges and I didn't blame them for taking consequences into account. I doubt the OP would say, "but just for Democrats."

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Response to LAS14 (Reply #7)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 10:46 AM

15. Funny, I never saw a post like that

When a Republican had a similar issue.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #15)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 10:53 AM

21. I refrain from posting anything to suggest that Republicans...

.... deserve the same standards in matters like these as Dems, since I'll almost certainly get alerted for posting a right-wing talking point. (Sorry, can't find the exact wording for that rule.) So I didn't say I'd posted about it. I said that's my opinion.

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Response to LAS14 (Reply #21)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 12:26 PM

53. THIS!

Posts that point out that we might be treating the other side unfairly have a lifespan of about four minutes.

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Reply #53)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 12:47 PM

65. Thanks! Glad to hear from you!!

I've always felt that refraining from prejudice (pre-judging) is a strength of the left.... But it is often under attack.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #2)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 10:37 AM

8. if the alternative is to richly reward a group of ultra-hypocritical ratfuckers

who hate minorities and women, then perhaps we had better weight hypocrisy against harm.

We have a coalition of flawed people who really are working to make things better for everyone. And we should hold them to account for their actions as elected Democrats. It beats the alternatives.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #8)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 10:48 AM

16. Ratfuckers who specialize in whataboutism

Lets not give the fuel.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #2)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 10:38 AM

9. Hypocrisy isn't taking a sledge hammer to fruit flies. There's wisdom in moderation

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #9)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 10:49 AM

17. Moderation or

acceptance of white male privilege?

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #17)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 10:51 AM

19. Moderation here would be an investigation by the DNC like Ellison. White privilege wouldn't exist

... if there was a standard process for these kinds of things politically.

I'm thinking Nancy should speak up here

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #19)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 11:08 AM

24. Investigation by the Party?

Couple thoughts:

This is about a Governor, and the Party isn't in charge of that.

If the Party did an investigation and some Dems disagreed with the outcome, they shouldn't speak their mind?

I'm afraid that it is just harder sometimes to be principled. If it gives the other side some sdvsntage, I am willing to accept that.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #24)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 11:14 AM

27. all of the minorities in VA you would hand into the tender mercies of the GOP

thank you for your principles.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #27)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 11:17 AM

28. That's crap

If we don't follow principles we are going to become just as bad. It's also the definition of rationalization.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #28)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 11:20 AM

31. "we are going to become just as bad" - evidence for that?

It seems like a slippery slope fallacy.

I didn't say we shouldn't follow principles and accept without consequence what our politicians do and say. Or did and said.

And yeah, I am rationalizing by trying to think what is better for the society of VA? That Democrats exercise the power they were granted in the election, or that the Democratic Party as a whole is "pure"?

I think it is worth thinking about.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #28)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:25 PM

92. Not to 100% perfection

If we demand that, we just lose. Not all things are harshly black and white or either/or.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #28)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 05:27 PM

127. Balcony.

If we purge every democrat with a past, the cons will rule forever. They never purge, they never punish. They let them have their come to Jesus moment and move on with complete support.

Judge what they are doing now, allow forgiveness for past mistakes. We cannot allow a right wing coup so we can claim purity.

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Response to idahoblue (Reply #127)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 06:35 PM

132. These are arguments for political expediency

There is no other characterization.

Everyone on here goes crazy about people who see no difference between the parties, but how far do we go with "forgiveness" before that starts to look true? I do think there is a slippery slope in these arguments, and I do believe white privilege plays a part.

I find the word "purity" offensive since racism, sexual predation and misogyny are not little things and are not tolerable to a huge portion of our constituency.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #27)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 11:56 AM

45. We're handing over the minorities to the GOP?

 

Good god. It sounds like you should be wearing Colonel Sanders' suit while you say that.

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Response to theboss (Reply #45)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 06:37 PM

133. I know, right?

White male privilege includes white men thinking they speak for everyone.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #24)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 11:25 AM

32. Of course it's harder to be principled but principled doesn't mean taking a sledge hammer to fruit

... flies to enforce those principles

Zero tolerance doesn't mean political homicide, that sounds like a path to FUD in a political context.

If the Party did an investigation and some Dems disagreed with the outcome, they shouldn't speak their mind?


Of course

I don't see anyone asking decent to be muted

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #32)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:15 PM

80. +1

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #19)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 09:53 PM

138. Nancy has no business meddling in a state government issue. nt

 

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #17)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 11:12 AM

25. that's an interesting way to frame it

especially if you are getting ready to reward the party of white male privilege.

How about "acceptance of the will of VA voters, who want Democrats to be in charge"

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #25)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 11:37 AM

37. White male privilege

exists because actions by white males get tisk, tisked rather than suffer the consequences of racism and misogyny. Both sides are capable of it because it is so common, we don't even realize we are engaging in it. Rationalizations have to stop, and yes, we are going to see some pretty uncomfortable things if it is to be vanquished.

Nobody ever said getting rid of white male privilege would be easy.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #37)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 11:43 AM

38. Again, all of the black people in VA who would get hosed because of this

will surely understand.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #38)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 11:47 AM

39. Like I said

change is hard, but someone has to take the lead. Maybe we can avoid just watering down these systemic issues. Nobody but offenders themselves caused this.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #39)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 12:29 PM

56. And by the time we accomplish that change, my daughter will be facing a world in which

her children are starving.

Because the planet is heating up, and the oil is running out.

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Reply #56)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 12:34 PM

58. Hopefully

Not that many Democrats molested women or acted overtly racist.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #58)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 12:39 PM

62. You don't get it; McCarthyist purity witch-hunts never stop with the bad cases

they always expand to the mainstream until somebody says "enough".

Look what happened to Franken, then look at what's already happening to Warren.

Enough.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #37)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:26 PM

94. Why does the consequence always have to be lose the office?

Surely there are consequences less than that.

It is up to VA voters anyway.

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Response to treestar (Reply #94)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:29 PM

96. You've hit it. Lesser consequences. That's what I'm saying

Is there a way to punish this guy and not punish all of the rest of us by empowering the GOP?

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 10:33 AM

4. It is a matter of how it is handled.....

 

For years Robert Byrd was a leading Democrat, despite having literally been in the KKK. But he was open about it, talked about it honestly when asked, and spent the rest of his life actively making up for it.

Northham has earned no such respect or benefit of the doubt.

So yes, to answer your question it is absolutely possible if and when it is handled correctly and addressed honestly. Which is why if somehow the Virginia Democratic AG gained power I would have no problem with him. He admitted it, spoke what I thought was fairly eloquently on why it was wrong and he felt bad about it and there's no other evidence that he's being anything less than honest.

In short, the exact opposite of how the Governor has handled this.

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Response to doompatrol39 (Reply #4)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 10:39 AM

10. I agree, the governor really handled it badly.

especially suggesting that he wasn't in the picture after apologizing for being in the picture.

that was moronic.

The Democratic Party needs to consider what to do about that - without necessarily going to defenestration as the first move.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #10)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 11:53 AM

44. His press conference was the very definition of cringeworthy

If it were up to me, the AG would be governor
Fairfax is denying it and I was uncertain. But given that Rep Bobby Scott knows her and knew about it a year ago, I give her more credibility


https://www.democraticunderground.com/10142260857

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Response to doompatrol39 (Reply #4)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 10:42 AM

12. Byrd is a perfect example

God, the GOP never shut up about him, as if they weren't the party of the modern KKK. But as a party, we decided it was better to have Byrd in place, even with his regrets, because power can mean the power to make things better.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 10:34 AM

5. Absolutely!!! Very well stated. And we'd better start doing it! Loss of job for any ...

... misconduct, no matter... how old and no matter what the consequences to the public is not rational. There's a word for what it is, but, of course, I can't think of it. Can someone help me so I can call out "Let's stay away from xxxxxxxxxxxxxx?"

As the OP stated, there are other ways of registering our negative opinion than calling for resignation.

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Response to LAS14 (Reply #5)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 10:41 AM

11. +1. Why must the penalty be death for every offense?

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Response to LAS14 (Reply #5)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 11:28 AM

33. "zero tolerance"?

may be the phrase you are looking for

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Response to LAS14 (Reply #5)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:30 PM

98. Proportional to the "crime"? Nt

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)


Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 10:49 AM

18. No we can't. Social media has conditioned us otherwise


We are cortisol junkies.

I don't think most people are going to wrap their head around what is the actual point of outrage amplification carried out on social media.

It's not about getting you to agree or disagree with any particular proposition, candidate, agenda, or anything else. People don't understand why, for example, during the 2016 elections there was foreign influence pushing completely different and opposing sides of issues.

Because it's not about having people come to rational, measured or proportional conclusions about anything.

The outrage is, itself, the point.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #18)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 10:54 AM

22. Excellent useful term, "outrage amplification." Did you come up with it? nt

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Response to LAS14 (Reply #22)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 12:21 PM

49. I dunno


Maybe I read it elsewhere, but don't know that I've seen it anywhere in particular. Seemed appropriate.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 11:03 AM

23. I believe the Fairfax accuser

But he should not give up power, the people of Virginia want Democrats in charge. If all 3 of these Dems resign the GOP takes over.

15 years ago a disputed event happened, the woman's version seems more believable to me. But the event is not clear enough to me to hand over the state to fascists.

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Response to Johnny2X2X (Reply #23)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 08:16 PM

137. For me, it's the opposite, I believe him, not her

 

Her account (specifically, the details) does not sound credible at all. I would go so far as to say it's "impossible", but I think it would lead to a detailed, gross discussion no one here would really want to have.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 11:13 AM

26. It looks to me like that might be exactly what is happening.

Every prominent Democrat has condemned Ralph Northam, and called on him to resign. And rightly so.

And yet, so far Ralph Northam has not given up power.

For better or worse, I think there is a good chance that this is how things are going to stay. Especially because the Lieutenant Governor and Attorney General are also compromised.

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Response to Skinner (Reply #26)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 11:17 AM

29. I'm actually surprised he has held out this long.

I hope they are actually thinking about this strategically, with both the interests of their constituents and the consequences of his actions both taken into account.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #29)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 12:22 PM

50. It's not as if it requires any effort

Actually resigning would require affirmative steps on his part.

Simply remaining the governor doesn't require any particular action.

It's also not as if there is any way to force him to quit.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 11:19 AM

30. I agree

There aren't any perfect politicians. You can't be in order to become one.

I'd rather have a Dem who made a mistake many years ago than one of the current russiapublicans. Any day.

Anyone who thinks the KGOP guy will be an improvement over Northan or the next two in line is not being realistic.

Bite the bullet and move on.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 11:28 AM

34. I've been avoiding having any opinion of the Virginia situation

Because itís conflicting (and I also donít live in Virginia and itís Virginiansí opinions that really matter).

I believe that in the current political climate, you canít disapprove of something and remain in power without appearing hypocritical.

If Northam was a Republican, Iíd have no problem calling for his resignation... but we need all the governorships we can get.

Iím not familiar with Virginiaís laws and their lines of succession after Lt. Governor. If Northam and Fairfax could resign and Virginiaís governorship still goes to a Democrat, do it.

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Response to In It to Win It (Reply #34)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:35 PM

99. A slight hypocrisy compared to the

outlandish hypocrisy of Repubs. They have no problem with it. That's why the Orange Menace is in office.

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Response to treestar (Reply #99)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:56 PM

107. Agreed. However, I don't think their hypocrisy justifies our hypocrisy.

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Response to In It to Win It (Reply #107)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 02:02 PM

112. It's got to be weighed

with some practicality. If he were a current KKK member, it would weigh a lot more against him.

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Response to In It to Win It (Reply #34)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:38 PM

101. A big difference that I think has been overlooked

Is that Democratsí policy positions, initiatives, voting records, etc., have been much more favorable toward women, people of color, disabled persons, the poor and lower income Americans, etc., than have Republicansí. Northam is no exception since he has been in office.

These good acts can not justify wrongdoing, obviously. But there is a world of difference between a politician who recently and without remorse engaged in wrongdoing, and who has worked to benefit the privileged, etc., vs. someone who recognized a past bad act, has not done it recently, and has worked consistently for good. And in this case, we do not even know for certain whether Northam was in the photo or was aware it had been placed on his page.

As a VA voter, I want us to slow down, investigate, then address what we find.

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Response to spooky3 (Reply #101)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:57 PM

108. I think it has been proven that students chose the pictures for their page

Again, not a good move on his part, and I don't like the way he has handled this.

But making good policy and fighting the GOP go a long way. We can punish this guy without rewarding the GOP.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #108)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:58 PM

110. Where is this proof? I have not seen any re:Northam. Thx.

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Response to spooky3 (Reply #110)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 02:03 PM

113. I'll dig it up - supposedly the editor of the yearbook described the process

about each of the students submitting their pictures in an envelope with their name on it.

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Response to spooky3 (Reply #110)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 02:05 PM

114. here's one story on it

https://wtvr.com/2019/02/05/yearbook-staffer-racist-photo/


Again, I want to emphasize that the smart thing is to have the guy make it up to us- for not revealing this earlier, for not fessing up, for not telling the truth about it and his bungled handling. But without rewarding the GOP

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #114)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 02:17 PM

118. Thank you; I had not seen the comments

from the editor. Strange that the editor did not know whether there were any faculty oversight of the process. But this should be investigated.

I agree with your other comments.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 11:30 AM

35. sure, republicans do that regularly to hold power

 

...it perpetuates problems in our democratic institutions like racism, sexism, homophobia, and creates space for cretins in that party to operate with impunity.

But hey, we can do that, right? We can compromise on core values in an effort to maintain power ,and still hold true to the Democratic principles we espouse, still remain true to the people who elect our leaders?

In what universe? This is what breeds cynicism in politics, compromising on basic values, rationalizing them into little more than fine words.

Is there going to be some sort of overt effort on issues of race from these political leaders, in return for our comity and forgiveness? What's the real value in these flawed public officials?

What else are we prepared to compromise on?

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Response to bigtree (Reply #35)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 11:33 AM

36. your attitude takes a huge dump on the will of the voters

especially if the results involve handing power over to the GOP. And especially if it makes situations much worse for the people we care about.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #36)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 11:52 AM

42. your 'attitude' immediately disregards that constituency

 

...and assumes that flawed leadership is sufficient and inviolable by virtue of their Democratic affiliation alone.

It's not even a Hobsen's choice you're offering, it's an ultimatum. Where's the line? What else are you willing to compromise to hold power?

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Response to bigtree (Reply #42)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 12:24 PM

51. I'm fine with having a better/perfect person inhabit a Democratic governorship in VA

if that person can be found. Having the GOP end up with more power because of this would be to disregard the constituency.

Especially ironic, since the GOP would actually _approve_ of the yearbook picture.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #51)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 12:31 PM

57. that would be a consequence of the pols behavior

 

...assume I'm a Va. voter in this discussion, because I'm not personally affecting anything there, despite your characterization of my 'attitude.'

The pols' behavior either matters to me or it doesn't. Compromising/rationalizing objections based on political calculations about the power balance in Virginia isn't some noble stance. It's the essence of political expediency, no matter how you dress it up.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #57)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 12:50 PM

67. imagine you are a VA voter, and you have to vote between two white guys

who probably have some racism in their past, based on them being white guys in VA. One is a Democrat, the other a Republican.

It's not a great choice, but the people in VA made (what I think is ) the best choice available.

Let's press our politicians on their policies.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #67)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:10 PM

73. all I see is a whitewash

 

...dress it up any way that makes you feel better about it.

This is how racism, sexism, etc. are institutionalized in our democratic system. Consider that as you make your compromises.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #35)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 12:00 PM

46. What breeds true cynicism in politics

 

Is when one party capitulates continually to traitors that run the other party.

Like the man said, "The position seems to be "well, you got us. Our politician is a flawed human being. Therefore we are going to throw away all of the work, money, and time spent getting them elected. And be sure to vote for Democrats next time, it's totally worth it."

Why bother if we're going to purge our own winners after every election based on pubican ratfcking?

No human is perfect. Staying true to our values doesn't mean creating the perfect human being because if it does, we might as well hand over control to the gop right now. They're concerned with winning not values or perfection. And I'm sure you can see the results of allowing them to cheat their way to power. Those results from pubican policies put in place after they cheated their way to power are far more offensive to women and minorities than the allegations against our own.

What outcome are you looking for? Where is the righteous outrage against gop politicians? We're losing seats we've already won!
They're cheating their way to more power. This will not end well but hey, you'll still have your values.

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Response to DirtEdonE (Reply #46)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 12:07 PM

47. keeping bad people in our party in power won't change the republican party

 

...it will just ensure racist, misogynistic, homophobic, xenophobic government.

But hey, you'll still have your party.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #47)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 12:27 PM

54. Neither will defenestrating every Democratic politician who has ever made a bad decision

but you'll still have your (extremely small) party.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #54)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 12:37 PM

61. we seem to have held up so far to the values people are demanding in Va. out of the elected Dems

 

...unless you view our party as already institutionally compromised, you'd have to admit we've held closely to these standards I describe in the people we elect and allow to serve.

Where we haven't, we are justifiably chastised and challenged.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #61)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 12:46 PM

64. Have we?

i can't honestly say i know exactly how many of our current Democratic leaders ever did or said something racist in their past.

Can you? Or are you reacting to this one because it is the only one we are hearing about.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #64)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 12:57 PM

68. either you think our party is morally compromised or not

 

...your argument is that Democrats we elect are similarly flawed?

The lengths. Just amazing.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #68)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:15 PM

79. uh, no. I'm saying you don't know how flawed they are or not

unless you have personally done all the vetting of all of our elected officials. To assume that they are all as pure as the driven snow may lead to similar surprises as what is coming out of VA.

I'll vote for better candidates! Hell, I support better candidates in the primaries (IMHO). I vote for the better candidate in the general. I'm not averse to the argument for better candidates.

I'm also not wild about voluntarily giving the GOP more power. Let's try to balance those things, is all I'm saying.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #68)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:39 PM

102. If he is currently voting as a non-racist

why does he have to be kicked out for the past? No one should ever change their minds to become more progressive, since you still can't be in the party.

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Response to treestar (Reply #102)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:57 PM

109. 'voting as a non-racist'

 

...lol.

The lengths.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #109)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 02:01 PM

111. What has he done in the past year?

or two? I don't get your sneering here. You seem to be alleging he is still a racist today and would vote accordingly? Proof please.

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Response to treestar (Reply #111)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 02:08 PM

115. lol

 

...done.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #115)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 02:13 PM

116. what?

that does not prove anything.

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Response to treestar (Reply #116)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 02:14 PM

117. I'm not interested in discussing this with you

 

...done.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #47)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 12:35 PM

59. Handing power over to the TRULY evil pubicans

 

Will only serve to totally destroy whatever chance we have of effecting true change. But hey, you'll still have trump and the rest of his traitors.

Totalitarian government doesn't allow protest so you'd better enjoy this while you can.

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Response to DirtEdonE (Reply #59)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 12:46 PM

63. that would be a consequence of these pols' behaviors

 

...voters shouldn't be expected to automatically dismiss those out of some cold political calculation about keeping Democrats in power.

Who knows, maybe most Va. voters will agree with you. That doesn't erase the ugliness behind all of the political expediency. Expecting that not to permeate the democratic process and decision-making is wish and a prayer. Where will the compromising on basic values of decency and humanity stop? Where does our party draw the line after deciding power is more important than values?

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Response to bigtree (Reply #63)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 12:47 PM

66. It's not "cold"!

It's a very hot reflection on the harm to actual people's lives that happens when Republicans are in power.

As flawed as Democratic politicians may be /have been in their personal lives, at least we can try to push them on actual policy.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #66)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 12:59 PM

69. This is exactly how pootin and trump stole the last election

 

And it's going to be exactly how they're going to steal the next one if we don't wake up soon.

DIVIDE AND CONQUER.

pootin and trump had bots sewing discord among Democrats for the entire 2016 campaign. Playing one faction against the other until Democrats were so divided many didn't even bother to vote, many wasted votes on third party shills like Jill Stein who it is now known was DIRECTLY involved with pootin. Some didn't bother to vote for president!

Listen, all of you who are demanding so much more of the Democratic Party while you allow the pubicans to serially abuse democracy, if you don't want four more years (and quite possibly the last four years of any presidency) you'd better wake up to the fact that YOU'RE BEING PLAYED AGAIN.

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Response to DirtEdonE (Reply #69)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:05 PM

71. nonsense

 

...Putin and Trump stole the election. Period.

It had nothing to do with Democrats supporting objectionable politicians to maintain power.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #71)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:26 PM

93. It had to do with divide and conquer

 

And this is nothing more than divide and conquer. This is NO different. They use any issue they can find and this one is no different.

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Response to DirtEdonE (Reply #93)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:55 PM

106. you have to make your own determination about what's important to you

 

...it's wrong to suggest people should stifle their objections because Putin might like the squabbling.

It's absurd, but you go with that.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #106)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 04:14 PM

120. Thanks for the advice

 

Like I really need you to give me clearance. LOFL

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Response to DirtEdonE (Reply #120)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 04:37 PM

121. you jumped into the middle of this discussion

 

...lecturing me about 'capitulating' to republicans.

Lol, indeed.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #121)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 04:53 PM

122. So did everyone else

 

Your capitalist underpants are showing.

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Response to DirtEdonE (Reply #122)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 05:00 PM

124. 'my capitalist underpants?'

 

...enjoy your stay.

I'm going to respectfully decline to view your posts anymore.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #124)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 05:02 PM

126. yeah, thanks again

 

I knew you'd never get the joke. But I had a feeling I'd get threats.

Enjoy your stay indeed. What are you doing now? Reporting me like a good citizen?

Good citizen. LOFL

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #66)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:03 PM

70. cause and effect

 

...it's escaping you why we'd need to 'push' these folks on policy.

Once you begin compromising on basic values to maintain power, where does it end? What else are you prepared to compromise on to maintain power?

It's a cold calculation, if your values include supporting 'flawed' politicians. Wrapping it up in political expediency doesn't make it any less cold.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #70)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:11 PM

75. Ok then, find me some non-flawed politicians and I'll get right on it

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #75)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:16 PM

81. amazing how concerns are reduced to political calculations

 

...and we wonder why these problems persist without redress by our government, by the people we elect.

Our government is a reflection of everything we choose to neglect, and also every cynical impulse we project.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #81)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:21 PM

86. uh. Duh. Political calculations are rather important

Politics is a fight over resources, and I want my policies implemented sometimes, whether it is done by the "right" people or not.

Lyndon Johnson wouldn't have survived this scrutiny. And he did more for the cause of equality than nearly any president before or since.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #86)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:24 PM

91. and you must wonder why those policies don't get implemented

 

...why the problems persist, even with Democratic representation at many levels.

Duh.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #91)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:27 PM

95. Was Northam implementing the New Jim Crow in VA or something?

As far as I can tell, his official actions and policies were fine, including supporting medically necessary abortions.

I'm _talking_ about judging policies. you are the one who wants to know the contents of their hearts.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #95)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:52 PM

105. Northam has an issue with truthfulness

 

...not a 'fine' characteristic in our elected officials.

You know well I've said nothing about 'judging the contents of their hearts.'

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #75)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:29 PM

97. +1

 

Democrats demanding perfection are going to wind up with hell.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #63)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:40 PM

103. There's always a balance

Weigh each side.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #35)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:36 PM

100. What are their current positions on the issues?

Like Byrd, if Northam is voting the right way, where is the hypocrisy. We're only talking about punishing him for a past act.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 11:49 AM

40. I do believe it is time

 

for what has been termed in more normal times "proportional response" - a political death sentence seems a bit harsh particularly when the pubicans are taking exactly ZERO casualties in the entire process.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 11:53 AM

43. I agree

I would also like it to apply to Elizabeth Warren who has already apologized to the Native American community. This purity test that one must never be allowed to make a mistake is foolish. I got arrested once for a weed sale and it is now expunged off my record. Does that make me not pure enough by the current standard. I guess my question is where is the line and maybe we should be a little more forgiving at times.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 12:09 PM

48. It's up to Virginia and the voters there.

It's unconscionable that politicians seeking attention immediately climbed on the bandwagon to interfere in a state's elected officials. No matter who it is. They could express an opinion but make it clear it's up to Virginia.

They have opened a can of worms, making it the rule that party members and politicians all over the country can come down to oust any state elected official. That's outrageous, to me. What hte person did is not the issue. The state is responsible for handling its own elections and elected officials. Virginia is quite capable of doing just that.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #48)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 12:27 PM

55. Which politicians did more than "express an opinion"?

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #48)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:12 PM

77. You can thank the advent of social media for that.

It's the present society we have now, and also because of it the politics of VA as well as every state affects all of us to one degree or another. Whether that's good or not is still out for debate. VA will still decide it's fate and affect our's in the end.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #48)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 02:24 PM

119. Thank you. One of the things that bothered me about the

immediate outcry was that some people with little knowledge of the state, of Northamís actions as an elected official (eg pro choice, expand Medicaid, pro jobs), or even of his very firmly anti-Trump campaign at a time when other politicians were tiptoeing, were calling him a DINO, etc.

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Response to spooky3 (Reply #119)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 05:28 PM

128. medicaid expansion was huge and it took northham to do it

yes he bumbled his apology but his record shows him to be a very progressive politician

if I was someone that now had healthcare (because of Medicaid expansion) I could easily forgive him for a mistake over 30 years ago

I seem to be in the minority @ du but I think the sexual assault accusations are many times worse than the old pictures

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 12:36 PM

60. this. nt

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:06 PM

72. Nailed it. "Democrats would rather be beyond reproach than in power."

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:10 PM

74. What needs to happen? Tom Perez needs to declare an approach - a fighting approach? I say yes.

He needs to provide guidance for how we handle the tanker truck of ratf*cking that is coming our way.

And it can't be "collapse at every turn."

Because of exactly what you said -- people gave up their time, their family time, their soccer game time, to canvass for our people. They gave up $30 they needed for shoes for their kids so our candidates could run ads and pay for staff. We CANNOT just throw their hard work in the trash.

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Response to EveHammond13 (Reply #74)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:18 PM

83. Well said. yeah, I worry that that kind of waste in pursuit of purity

also breeds cynicism in the electorate. What's the point of working for/supporting the Democratic candidate? We might find out he had bad judgement in his 20s, after all.

That point was driven home to me when the Democratic party allowed Franken to be thrown overboard. The voters from MN who had worked so hard to get him there were PISSED. And rightfully so.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #83)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:20 PM

85. I fully agree.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:18 PM

82. Walk AND chew gum? Are you mad?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #82)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:22 PM

89. lol

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #82)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 07:16 PM

136. LOL! nt

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:19 PM

84. Yes! There has to be some other way to punish them!

And their voters!

Then be more careful next time. Vet, vet, vet and use it against them in the primary.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:21 PM

87. Yes it can, or should.

 

If someone like Northam has transgressed in the past I think we ought to give him a chance to MAKE IT UP TO US--bigly--instead of throwing him under the bus and running over him with a repuke. Were his actions out of bounds? Then take responsibility and ATONE for them. That goes for Herring also. Fairfax? I dunno how to resolve that...but I really don't want to see a rush to judgment a la Franken.

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Response to shanny (Reply #87)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:23 PM

90. well said.

this is similar to other thoughts I was having but you articulated it really well. Make it up to us. We can do that without helping the GOP.

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Response to shanny (Reply #87)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:50 PM

104. +1

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 01:21 PM

88. I would not be surprised if the Dems just let the GOP have the state even with Gerrymandering discus

 

I would not be surprised if the Dems just let the GOP have the state even with Gerrymandering discussions coming up.

This is how the DEMS destroy themselves from within.

Just give the keys to the VA government to the Republican speaker and call it a lost so you can walk on the high road.

Walking the high road is I guess worth having the GOP gerry mander in VA and prevent African American voting.


Dems can be so STUPID some times... only to keep the high road.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 05:01 PM

125. IMO this can be pretty much boiled down to

 

Win first. Clean house later.

Zero tolerance is great when you're in a position to apply it equally. Otherwise, you always lose.

Then, we'll all have to face a permanent pubican majority. Think about that before you insist the next imperfect (and we're ALL imperfect) Democrat is ratfcked into resigning while they seat another justice on the Supreme Court like kavanaugh, the blackout drunk serial sex abuser whom no one seems to be insisting he resign. Or trump the serial sex abuser in the White House.

Where's the hue and cry for them?

I'm sick and tired of losing. And it's worse when we do it to ourselves.

Win first. Then clean house.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 05:39 PM

130. I trust the Democrats are digging into Kirk Cox's past

And the past of every other Virginia Republican.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 05:40 PM

131. There's ratfucking, hard core racism, then there's

Last edited Thu Feb 7, 2019, 08:58 PM - Edit history (1)

a Greater Good.



It's like fighting a defensive war; you may vehemently disapprove of taking a life but you're fighting to save more lives (WWI and WWII were defensive wars; there have been none since that I know of).

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 06:40 PM

134. Bill Clinton was a flawed person too

But we (Democrats) didn't all capitulate to the Republicans and impeach Bill for lying about cheating on his wife while in office.

Or were we wrong back then for not impeaching/convicting Bill Clinton?

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Response to TheRealNorth (Reply #134)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 07:15 PM

135. +1. nt

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