Elephant in the Room: Falsely accusing black men of rape is an old tactic, especially in the South

[EffieBlack]

That's not to say that every black man accused of sexual assault is innocent or that every accusation is false. Certainly that's not the case.

But we can't consider the Justin Fairfax accusation, especially with its flimsy support and curious timing, in a vacuum without understanding the history and dynamic of innocent black men being taken down and destroyed because a woman pointed at him and said "he did it."

I can't help but wonder if this accusation against Fairfax is being brought forward at this time with an assumption that some people - especially those who dismiss and defend proven past racist behavior as no big deal that can be overcome by just not doing it again - would be receptive to an uncorroborated sexual assault charge when leveled at a black man.

[Sneederbunk]

1. At this time a man does not get the benefit of the doubt.

Both Northam and Fairfax should resign.

[EffieBlack]

2. Why should Fairfax resign?

Because a woman put a post on Facebook accusing him of something?

[Sneederbunk]

7. That is all it takes these days.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

51. Totally hear you though - horrors of history of wrongful accusations of black men.

But, isn't it possible that in this case, it is just a "He said, She said deal?" He admits sleeping with her. She said he got violent. No way to prove one way or the other. It totally sucks, but it's true, unless there's a video, unless she told someone, took pics, we will never know. Just like we will never know with 100% certainty if Kavenaugh was guilty either - so unless more comes out, we can only be 99% sure

The Post also said that "Fairfax and the woman told different versions of what happened in the hotel room with no one else present."

"The Washington Post could not find anyone who could corroborate either version. The Post did not find 'significant red flags and inconsistencies within the allegations,' as the Fairfax statement incorrectly said."

The newspaper detailed the woman's claims of a sexual encounter with Fairfax "that left her crying and shaken."

Fairfax told the newspaper the encounter was consensual, according to The Post.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/04/virginia-lt-gov-justin-fairfax-denies-assault-allegation-as-ralph-northam-mulls-quitting.html

[bpj62]

73. Oral sex

He did not have intercourse with her. He said she willing preformed oral sex on him, she alleged that he forced his penis into her mouth. Lets keep things factual.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

150. My bad

[pnwmom]

137. But with Kavanaugh, there was a pattern of poor drunken behavior. So far nothing like that

has come out about Fairfax.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

149. Very true. Since no one will ever know, you have

To just take all the information in and decide on a probability it happened or didn't. From my perspective only, absence of any evidence that the accuser may have a monetary incentive or an extreme political agenda, it's more likely than not, the woman is telling the truth. Most women would shun the humiliation of it all.

[pnwmom]

151. And, as Effie wrote below, what if a woman had come out like this

when Barack Obama was running? Should an accusation backed up by no evidence at all have been allowed to derail his career? Because he was a man and she was a woman?

I'm deeply uncomfortable with the idea that, in the absence of any evidence at all (which it's too early to know about in this case), we should always believe the woman over the man.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

156. No evidence to speak of with Kavenaugh was there?

So you believed him?

You and I and everyone else can believe anyone they want. And that's the way it works when there are no tapes or recordings or confessions. But none of us will ever know the real truth.

[pnwmom]

158. But there WAS evidence with Kavanaugh. Christine had told people years before she went public

and there were other corroborating witnesses. (The woman at Yale, for example, who talked about his drunken behavior, shoving his penis in her face -- in front of other people, who corroborated her story.)

So far we have no corroborating evidence with Fairfax -- even though the WA Post went out and looked for it. They couldn't find anyone she'd told her story to, and they couldn't find any other woman he'd assaulted.

It still could happen, but right now there's nothing.

(But aside from all that, this isn't a lifetime appointment to the Supreme Court. This is a fill-in appt to being Governor. After 3 years he'd have to be elected by the people of the state. So I don't think the bar needs to be set quite as high.)

[Laura PourMeADrink]

159. What about how he said WaPo found

holes and inconsistencies in her story? They said that wasn't true?

I don't know if it's "evidence" per se, but totally agree it's more likely that Kavenaugh is guilty than Fairfax.

[pnwmom]

160. Maybe he assumed that because they decided not to pursue it. I doubt he purposefully lied,

because it would be so easy to be contradicted on that -- and he was. So I think he misunderstood. Maybe the reporter who talked to him about the story said something he misinterpreted.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

164. Oops another woman

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211795173

[pnwmom]

165. Yeah, this changes everything. n/t

[Laura PourMeADrink]

166. Wow. You are really pretty cool ! Thanks

[pnwmom]

167. Thank you! I said I was reserving judgment, and I was.

My theory was that most of the guys who could do something like this to one woman would be likely to assault more than one. So I was waiting for some woman or women to come forward before I made up my mind. Or some kind of further evidence.

And that happened.

I do feel sorry for his family. This is going to hurt all of them.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

168. Yes. My college roommate worked for government

In VA so i asked her opinion. The only one she really vouched for was the DA. She said it continues to amaze her how these people who want to get into the government limelight haven't figured out that they have to get in the fish bowl.

[pnwmom]

170. Yeah, it's hard to understand that, isn't it?

Maybe it's because you need to have a pretty big ego to seek a job like that, and that same big ego might think it can get away with stuff. Or maybe he convinced himself over the years that he didn't ever do anything like that. Hard to believe, though.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

171. Isn't it funny (not haha funny) that I can't think of

Any public figure who just had one accusation?

[pnwmom]

172. Well, I think it takes a "special" kind of person to behave like that.

The men I have been close to would literally shrink from the idea of hurting a woman. But the ones who don't think of anybody but themselves, well, they keep on thinking of nobody but themselves.

I heard them talking on one of the cable shows tonight about the possibility of staggering the resignations, so they can replace the Dems with squeaky clean Dems (I'm thinking they could use a woman in at least one of those spots). Hope they figure out how to do this and move forward.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

163. oops! Another woman

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211795173

[fleur-de-lisa]

8. Several news organizations have looked into the Fairfax allegation and have found nothing.

I haven't heard if the woman filed a complaint with the police.

So far, there is only a vague rumor. Not nearly enough for Fairfax to resign.

[atreides1]

13. Not quite

They've found no corroboration that will support the accusation, no witnesses...just he said/she said!

The woman who claims Virginia Lt. Gov. Justin Fairfax (D) sexually assaulted her has hired the same law firm that represented Dr. Christine Blasey Ford in her claims against Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh, NPR reported.

Washington, D.C.-based Katz, Marshall and Banks is representing Dr. Vanessa Tyson, who says Fairfax forced her to perform oral sex on him in his hotel room at the 2004 Democratic National Convention in Boston.

https://casbs.stanford.edu/people/vanessa-tyson

[njhoneybadger]

55. You can't be serious

[EffieBlack]

61. At least you're consistent

and didn't do the "Northam should be given the benefit of the doubt and not be forced out by the GOP, no matter WHAT he did" to "That allegation makes Fairfax too much of a liability, so he needs to go" pivot ...

[blueinredohio]

107. No way should they both resign. The proof may be there on Northam

but it's he said, she said on Fairfax. I'm tired of democrats backing down because of an accusation. Bring the proof or shut up.

[a kennedy]

3. Curious, who's next in line for the Governorship if both are gone??

Who actually benefits if both the Governor and Mr Fairfax are gone?!

[Sneederbunk]

5. Mark Herring Dem Attorney General.

He has plans to run for Gov in 2021. Dems benefit because this would be cleaned up.

[Demsrule86]

39. The GOP legislature can and will force a vote on a new Lt Governor...in the hopes of taking the

the seat in 20. No doubt many anonymous women will come forward blah blah...it is a GOP shit show.

[Sneederbunk]

62. Won't matter if Northam and Fairfax simultaneously resign.

Opens way for Herring. No election until 23.

[Demsrule86]

162. yeah and surprise surprise...Herring is now under attack. I stated that this is all GOP and

possibly Russian ratfucking and I was correct. NO ONE RESIGNS... and we circle the wagons...go on the offensive.

[EffieBlack]

6. The Democratic AG

I don't think the GOP wants Northam gone. They want him right where he is - so that he can be their shield, their punching bag, their Exhibit A that they'll whip out whenever a Democrat tries to call Trump or the GOP out for their racism. It's in their best interest to have a completely useless, discredited governor whom the most important members of the base can't stand and who won't be able to do a thing to turn the legislature back to the Democrats this fall or to deliver the state to the Democrats in 2020.

I think the point of the Fairfax allegation is to frighten Virginians into keeping Northam, not to clear the decks in hopes that they can get a Republican governor from somewhere down the line of succession.

[WeekiWater]

4. "especially in the South"

There is really no difference to this tactic regionally. Even historically.

[temporary311]

9. Is his accuser white?

Because that's usually been the color of this particular elephant.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. Here is the information you requested

https://heavy.com/news/2019/02/vanessa-tyson/

[njhoneybadger]

68. Holy shit, she seems ligit to me. I don't see why she would make this up

[DemocratSinceBirth]

74. My thoughts

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11777456

[EffieBlack]

78. I don't see why either

I also don't see why a young man with no history of sexual assault would assault this woman on this one occasion for the one and only time in his life.

Both of them are in terrible circumstances. If she's telling the truth, it must be enormously frustrating not to be able to prove it beyond telling what happened in the room 15 years ago between the two of them with no witnesses or evidence, hoping someone believes her or that he admits it.

And if he is telling the truth, but can't prove a negative, imagine how frustrating - and frightening - for him to be living every black man's worst nightmare: being wrongfully accused of rape.

[atreides1]

14. Dr. Vanessa Tyson

Center for Advanced Study
in the Behavioral Sciences
at Stanford University


https://casbs.stanford.edu/people/vanessa-tyson

[EffieBlack]

20. No - the operative color is the color of the accused.

And in this instance, if this is a ratf@ucking operation designed to remove an up-and-coming black man, how better to do it than for a black woman to make the accusation?

[Ms. Toad]

33. Because women of color,

especially liberal, educated women of color who have spent a significant proportion of their professional careers working on issues of sexual ause, are easily manipulated into taking down black men.

Especially black men who have demonstrably lied about third party evaluation of the allegation.

Fairfax: After being presented with facts consistent with the Lt. Governor's denial of the accusation, the absence of any evidence corroborating the allegations, and significant red flags and inconsistencies within the allegations, the Post madet the considered decision not to publish the story

Washington Post: The Post did not find “significant red flags and inconsistencies within the allegations,” as the Fairfax statement incorrectly said.

. . .

“Lt. Gov. Fairfax is a public official who may well rise to the position of governor,” Baron said in a statement. “He began the morning by issuing a statement regarding allegations against him, making specific representations about Post reporting that had not resulted in publication. We then had an obligation to clarify the nature of both the allegations and our reporting.”

I'm actually shocked to see you throw woman of color under the bus on this one. I could understand taking a neutral position on this one - especially at this early stage. I don't understand coming out with both barrels blasting against this woman of color who alleges she was sexually assaulted by Fairfax, by accusing her essentially of being a right wing tool.

[EffieBlack]

37. You're treading waters far away from your pond, my dear

First of all, where did I come out "with both barrels blasting" at this woman or accuse her of being a "right wing tool?"

Secondly, you're in no position to give me nor am I interested in receiving from you a lecture about the behavior or motivations of women of color, professional or otherwise, or my views. I suggest you direct your sociological and psychological analysis elsewhere.

[Ms. Toad]

56. Until specifically called on it,

you were completely silent as to the inconvenient race of the accuser.

When it was expressly pointed out you carefully framed the implications about the woman with the word "if," - after numerous posts which left no doubt that "if" was a mere formality - like "alleged" in front of the word rape - tossed in to protect the speaker from being legally liable for defamation.

E.g.:

I think the point of the Fairfax allegation is to frighten Virginians into keeping Northam, not to clear the decks in hopes that they can get a Republican governor from somewhere down the line of succession.

Funny how it just happened to come out this weekend in the middle of Northam's meltdown. And how it came out, not with a woman coming forward and making a point blank allegation, but of her posting a cryptic post on her Facebook page, not naming names, and a "friend" screenshotting it and sending it to the outlet that spilled the beans on Northam.

This is all a little too raggedy for me to believe it's all a coincidence. This makes it clear you don't believe the allegation - and you believe it is a right wing hit job.

You finally make you implications about the woman clearer - (albeit qualified by "if" ), after your other comments in the thread have already made it clear you believe it is a ratfucking operation:

if this is a ratf@ucking operation designed to remove an up-and-coming black man, how better to do it than for a black woman to make the accusation?

The only fair reading of the collection of comments in this thread is that you believe the woman to be a right wing tool being used to take down Fairfax. And that truly surprises me coming from you.

[EffieBlack]

59. The race of the accuser is irrelevant to the point I'm making, so there was no need to focus on it

Her race is really much more important to those who want to say, "his accuser is black, so race can't be a factor in any of this."

And none of the excerpts you so carefully culled from my posts obviates my point. But it's nice to know you pay such close attention to what I'm writing.

[theboss]

63. Her race and her status have to be taken into account

What you are saying (without saying it) is that this woman is a tool of a right-wing smear machine.

You need to posit why this highly credentialed woman of color with a seemingly spotless resume is doing this.

Or does she have no agency here?

[EffieBlack]

65. Since that's not what I said, there's no point in responding to the rest of your post

I'm not going to waste my time knocking down strawmen.

[theboss]

69. Can be rat-fucking without her involvement?

That's not a strawman question.

[EffieBlack]

75. Yes, it can be

But, as I stated elsewhere, there are only a couple of possible alternatives here:

1. She's telling the truth and Fairfax raped her
2. Fairfax didn't rape her and she's lying to help frame him
3. Fairfax didn't rape her and she's lying for another reason
4. Fairfax didn't rape her but she genuinely believes he did (whether because of mental illness, stupidity or something else)

If you take out #2, that leaves 1) Fairfax is a rapist, 2) she's lying, or 3) she's confused.

Interestingly, people here have no problem considering the possibility that Fairfax is a rapist but even a mention of the possibility that she could be lying is met with "How DARE you accuse her of ...!""

None of us know what is going on here, both parties, at this point are credible, reputable people. Being a rapist seems as far away from his persona as being a liar is from hers. I'm simply troubled by people's willingness to accept that he engaged in behavior so far away from what could be expected from him while refusing to believe that it's possible that she could be engaging in behavior that seems completely inconsistent with what would be expected from her.

And I do believe that some (but not all) of this willingness is based on a long-standing negative societal (and often unconscious) view of black men.

[jberryhill]

97. Has she even made a public accusation?

I may have missed a step or two here, but this revolves around a facebook message which she sent to another party who has publicized its contents, is that correct?

And I do believe that some (but not all) of this willingness is based on a long-standing negative societal (and often unconscious) view of black men.

Unless their name is Herman Cain or Clarence Thomas.

But, please correct me if I have missed a public statement of ANY kind made by the alleged victim in question.

[EffieBlack]

102. No, she hasn't

And she didn't send the Facebook post to the publication. Someone took a screenshot of it and (with her permission) sent it to the publication. Which is an odd way to do this.

But interestingly, it doesn't matter at this point if she made a public statement. The accusation is now out there and the damage is being done.

[jberryhill]

105. Then much of this discussion is premature IMHO

"Someone took a screenshot of it and (with her permission)"

Has she stated it was done "with her permission"? Or is that also a third-party claim?

In other words where you say the screenshot was taken "with her permission", who is the source of that claim? Her, or someone else?

Has she made any public statement of any kind in this matter?

I fully appreciate the problem of "false accusations". What I fail to see - in any of this - is an accusation. Period. She does not appear to have made any accusation at all thus far.

[EffieBlack]

111. The "with her permission" was claimed by the website that published it

And you make a good point. So far, she has made no accusation.

[jberryhill]

115. Okay, so....

All of the statements about "she" seem premature:

1. She's telling the truth and Fairfax raped her
2. Fairfax didn't rape her and she's lying to help frame him
3. Fairfax didn't rape her and she's lying for another reason
4. Fairfax didn't rape her but she genuinely believes he did (whether because of mental illness, stupidity or something else)

We have no direct evidence that "she" has intended any statement to be made in public on her behalf.

[EffieBlack]

117. She has made the allegation - she just hasn't made it in public

[irresistable]

120. why would she do more? She saw how things worked out for the accusers of Kavanaugh.

[Drunken Irishman]

176. You see how even liberals treat her...

I wouldn't, either. I mean, even places like DU have suggested she had it coming because she went up into his hotel room. At the end of the day, liberals aren't much better than conservatives when it comes to dismissing rape. They just like to pretend they're wholly on board with protecting women...until it's one of their own. Then they go off the rails.

Just search: Monica Lewinsky.

[jberryhill]

124. What do you think of the further info

According to an update here, she gave "permission to share" to someone else.

So, here's my question:

1. Abel writes something defamatory about Baker in a private communication which does not harm to Baker. Charlie says that she would like to share what Abel wrote and asks Abel. Abel says, "You can share it if you want to." Charlie proceeds to publish the communication in a way which harms Baker.

(a) Can Baker be solely liable for publication of the defamatory communication, and Abel avoid liability, if Abel can show that she did not intend Charlie to publish the information by saying "You can share it if you want to"?

(b) Is Abel's intent relevant?

[EffieBlack]

138. This is an interesting question

I think it would be difficult to sustain a defamation charge for a couple of reasons.

If, as in this instance, the private communication didn't actually name Baker, just described him in a way that could apply to many other men, could Baker even claim harm? I think so because, under these circumstances, it was clear who Abel was describing.

But Abel didn't share it themselves, but allowed someone else to share it, so there are a couple of degrees of separation here.

Abel's intent is relevant but it could also be argued that allowing it to be shared showed reckless disregard, regardless of intent.

What do you think?

[jberryhill]

140. I think the chain of events is odd

If I had information like that about someone, or an accusation like that about someone, I wouldn't write it privately and say to someone else that they can hold the bag for publishing it.

It's like that guy at the bank who keeps making two cash withdrawals of $9,999 at the end of every month like clockwork. Someone is structuring something to avoid a potential liability.

Now I realize the fundamental fallacy of "if it was me", which everyone is prone to making, since the only person who is me is me, and I'm certainly not her. So, I have to leave as just a matter of curiosity, or a quirk of personality, that to have an accusation as potentially explosive as that and simply say to someone else that they can do "whatever" with it....

It strikes me as an intentionally defensive tactic, but that may be simply because that's the way it strikes me, because I have paranoid tendencies.

Clearly circumstances will evolve. But she seems to be a fairly passive "accuser" at this point.


Abel's intent is relevant but it could also be argued that allowing it to be shared showed reckless disregard, regardless of intent.

Put it on an exam and see what the consensus is, lol. I love "it could be argued". That is great on exams, but clients tend to ask, "but will it win?"

I haven't a clue.

[OilemFirchen]

121. "Has she stated it was done 'with her permission'?"

It would appear so:

Link to tweet

[jberryhill]

122. Ah, well, there you go

Seems like a weak technical dodge to a potential defamation claim.

She didn't publish the item, but she said someone else could publish it if they want to.

So the defamation question becomes a matter of who intended it to be published if the accuser merely gave "permission to share".

[OilemFirchen]

126. I'm not following this story closely.

Has Fairfax alleged that she defamed him?

[jberryhill]

128. Not yet

But one would certainly seek to have a viable defense if one is going to make a false accusation of rape.

[OilemFirchen]

134. I see.

But she did approach the Post with the same accusation. That would seem evidentiary.

I don't anticipate him suing her, at any rate. For that matter, and despite his earlier proclamation that he would pursue a tort, I don't see that happening either. It would be self-defeating.

[jberryhill]

135. It usually is

But if you are potentially on the other side, you have to look ahead.

I'm not familiar with who-shot-who in the first Act of the show.

[pnwmom]

152. It just occurred to me, based on your posts,

that she might have hired the legal firm for self-defense. Is there a possibility he could sue her for defamation? If she couldn't prove rape, then what?

He has threatened to sue the website.

https://www.newsadvance.com/news/state/updated-lt-gov-justin-fairfax-threatens-legal-action-against-conservative/article_1c7447b8-7f0a-51d0-98c2-03fc0901e457.html

[atreides1]

10. Good point

But, that old southern tactic you speak of, more often then not involved a black man accused of raping a white woman, so this is something a little different!

The difference here, is the alleged victim is described as a professional African American woman.

At this rate Virginia will have Mark Herring as governor, providing some long forgotten secret is suddenly remembered!!!

[EffieBlack]

17. This is an African American woman, yes. But the operative fact is that the accused is a black man

And the idea of destroying this black man because a woman - I don't care what race she is - posted on Facebook that he assaulted her after she went to his room 15 years ago, he denies it and there's no proof supporting her claim and this only comes up when he was running for office and then again now in the midst of a white governor's history of blatant racism being exposed should cause all of us some real concern.

[pnwmom]

67. According to reports she's an intelligent, professional woman so I don't understand

why she is doing it this way, assuming she is.

If she's going to accuse him, why doesn't she?

[EffieBlack]

76. I also find interesting how many people are willing to give her more credibility because she's

intelligent, accomplished and professional - which belies a startling degree of classism.

Would she be less credible if she were uneducated, working class or poor?

[pnwmom]

79. I wasn't referring to her credibility. I was referring to her ability to judge the consequences

of her actions. Of course working class people or poor people are often intelligent. But a professor at a University should definitely be -- right? As an intelligent person, I would think she would be more capable of thinking through something she was doing -- not letting it all play out through whispers on Facebook.

But all this might be moot soon. She has apparently come forward. She's no longer anonymous and I assume she'll have a story to tell.

This just makes me ill.

[EffieBlack]

81. I understand - and don't think that's what you were doing

I was referring to others who are making that judgment

[pnwmom]

84. I just can't see any clear end to this now.

If it is true she never told anyone before going to the Post -- and he's never misbehaved with anyone else -- and it happened 14 years ago with no witnesses at all. Then obviously this would never stand up in a court of law.

But it could damn him forever in the court of public opinion.

[EffieBlack]

94. Exactly.

[still_one]

141. According to NPR she has hired the law firm that represented Chistine Ford

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/05/691530607/woman-alleging-sexual-assault-by-virginias-lt-gov-hires-washington-law-firm

[pnwmom]

142. I'm waiting for some corroborating witnesses. The WA Post couldn't find any,

but time will tell.

In the meantime, Wohl is offering bribes for women to come forward . . .

[still_one]

147. It is purely political now, whether that was intended or not by the accuser, it is too late, it has

legs of its own.

[melman]

85. lol

You're just throwing everything at the wall now.

[EffieBlack]

95. How do you figure that?

Do you think she's more credible because she's educated?

I work with abused and trafficked women and one of their biggest frustrations is that they feel invisible because people think they're ignorant and unworthy. They also know that if they had money and education, were more articulate and "worthy" they'd be taken seriously as victims.

I'm not questioning this woman's credibility. I'm simply pointing out that her education and profession don't necessarily make her more credible than someone with less education or earning capacity.

Some of the most batshit crazy people I know are well-educated professionals with plenty of money - just sayin ... Having a good job and education doesn't mean she's more likely to be telling the truth than if she had a high school education and worked at Popeye's.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. I hope and pray the allegations aren't true.

What a thicket.

[irresistable]

27. This does not look good.

Dr. Tyson looks like a very unlikely false accuser.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

41. All I will say is if we truly want to be the party of the good guys it comes with a price.

I'm not asking for moral perfection from my leaders, only that they be fundamentally decent people.

[irresistable]

43. You are right. It is much, much harder to be the good guys.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

48. The argument

The argument that Republicans accept aberrant behavior from their leaders and we are at a disadvantage if we don't is not persuasive. "Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster."

As to the topic I will await more information before passing judgement. I have empathy for the accuser and the accused, both hold themselves out as progressives.

[pnwmom]

91. If he did something like that to her, wouldn't you expect that it was part of a pattern?

Do men who behave like that only do it once, to a single woman?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

100. I don't know.

They both deserve to be heard.

[pnwmom]

89. And he looks like an unlikely rapist. How can you tell by looking?

[irresistable]

118. her choice of study, work, and volunteering is connected to sexual abuse

For a person to devote her life to helping in that area and then falsely accuse is almost unthinkable.

[pnwmom]

123. She teaches political science and sexual abuse has not been her focus, much less her whole life.

Yes, she has worked as an advocate for sexual violence awareness.

But what about his whole life? What in his life indicates to you that he would be capable of rape?

Biography
Tyson’s first book manuscript Twists of Fate: Multiracial Coalitions and Minority Representation in the U.S. House (under contract with Oxford University Press) explores structural inequality in the United States and how members of Congress have formed multiracial coalitions as a strategy to provide for their diverse constituencies. Having worked on political campaigns since she was 12 years old, she carefully considers how political dynamics affect policy formulation and consequent outcomes. Tyson also spent years working as an advocate for sexual violence awareness and prevention.

[EffieBlack]

96. What does a false accuser look like?

[irresistable]

119. That is irrelevant. When a woman makes an accusation like this, she should be believed.

Ask yourself why she devoted herself to helping people who have been sexually abused.

[pnwmom]

125. Why should she be believed over him in the absence of any evidence?

The fact that she volunteered to help people could have meant lots of things: maybe he assaulted her. Or maybe someone else assaulted her. Or maybe someone assaulted someone she was close to. Or maybe she just has a lot of empathy and compassion. But the fact that she volunteered to help victims doesn't mean that this particular man abused her.

Let's wait and see how this plays out before we rush to judgment.

I still remember the rush to judge the Central Park 5, and later the Duke students. The theory that women never lie isn't true -- it's rare, but it can happen.

[EffieBlack]

131. That's not what you said

You said she didn't look like a false accuser. I simply asked you what a false accuser looks like since you seem to know.

Are you saying that any woman who accuses a man of rape must be believed?

[madville]

15. His accuser is a long time Democratic supporter

And seems is equally as credible as him at the moment. She has retained the same law firm that represented Dr. Ford.

The Washington Post stated that they found nothing wrong with her story, just that both her and Fairfax's versions were equally unprovable because there are no other witnesses or evidence.

[Fresh_Start]

16. Remember also she came forward before Blasey Ford

I'm sure her seeing Blasey Ford being acknowledged as credible while she was largely ignored must have been painful.

Maybe she should have a lie detector test like Blasey Ford.

I seem to recall that we were quite vocal about believing victims when it was Blasey Ford versus Kavanaugh...

Women rarely lie about sexual assault.

[EffieBlack]

19. Blasey Ford had lots of corroborating evidence

Moreover, Kavanaugh had a pattern of drunken abusive behavior that was witnessed by others.

This woman, so far, has produced nothing other than her saying so, which is no more credible than his denial. And there is absolutely no evidence that Fairfax has ever behaved this way with any other woman in his life.

And, yes, women rarely lie about sexual assault. But sometimes women DO lie about it. And, unfortunately, when that lie is directed at a black man, people are more likely to believe it.

Suppose this isn't true. Suppose Justin Fairfax did not do what she accused him of. What if he's spent his life being extraordinarily careful NOT to ever set a foot wrong. But now that he's poised to possibly become governor, a woman floats a veiled accusation on her Facebook page and he faces ruin if he can't prove he DIDN'T do it. What is he supposed to do with that?

[Fresh_Start]

44. I was raped...until I had therapy 20 years later...

I had no evidence either.

Yes, I don't think either Northam or Fairfax should step down.
Northam's actions weren't criminal and Fairfax actions aren't proven

I guess Fairfax could take a lie detector test, would you advise he do that?

[EffieBlack]

47. I'm so sorry

As you know, every case is different.

I don't think the lack of corroborating evidence means it didn't happen. It just means that it's difficult, if not impossible to prove that it did happen. And, by the same token, it makes it very difficult for Fairfax to prove that he DIDN'T do it, a terrible position to be in.

As for the lie detector test, I really don't know. As a lawyer, I'm wary of advising a person in danger of legal jeopardy (I don't know if the statute of limitations has run or not) to take a lie detector test administered by law enforcement or the opposing party because they are not always reliable and can implicate even an innocent person.

If I were his lawyer, I would likely suggest that he take a private test administered by a reputable, independent firm and, if the results were favorable, release them.

[Fresh_Start]

53. thank you for your sympathy

perhaps

the fact that I had to forgive my rapists
the fact that I had to forgive my father for abandoning us
the fact that I had to forgive my parents and grandparents for their racism and anti-semitism
the fact that I had to forgive my christian relatives for their intolerance

makes it easier for you to understand that I can forgive Northam for his ugly actions without being a racist myself and I can have empathy for the pain and disgust felt by you and others

I can acknowledge that the claim against Fairfax has not risen to the level where he should resign without being a promoter of rape culture myself

I believe in forgiveness

[EffieBlack]

57. I, too, believe in forgiveness.

I've spent most of my life forgiving. But forgiveness doesn't mean not expecting atonement. In Northam's case, people are more than ready to forgive. But that doesn't mean that he gets to skip along with his life and career without any consequences at all as if nothing had ever happened. I think that's the sticking point for many people - the notion that because he fessed up (kind of) on Friday, but Saturday morning we should all be singing Kumbaya and saying "no harm no foul""

[Fresh_Start]

132. Did you not see the parade of DU posts

well...I was only 3 in 1984 and I knew it was wrong....
So many people saying they didn't see that type if behavior when I well know that behavior was not uncommon. And we find out that his medical school continued having racially charged images until it discontinued producing yearbook in 2013.

People unfortunately tend to act badly when they are in a group of other people acting badly.
They are too weak to do the right thing even when they know what the right thing is.

So he was another idiot in a time of many idiots.
But from what I can tell he's actually become a better person.
Although he clearly has a way to go.

Full disclosure: my stepfather and grandparents were racists and antisemites.
And I lived in Trump country where c**n wasn't used but the n-word still was.
Although the s-word was more common because there were more hispanics than blacks.

I've been a bleeding heart since I was a tiny child.
I would never have done that. but I know people who might have.

I also think that there is a benefit to the democratic party for forgiving people and letting them back into the fold.
And I'm not talking just felons...I think we need to say, hey if you were an idiot in the 1980s...and are now ready to join this century, you are still welcome.

We need to heal this divide before it destroys us.
I'm not saying we need to include current racists...but there better be room for people who have become better people.

[EffieBlack]

139. Forgiveness isn't a one way street. And it takes more than an apology to earn it and the slate isn't

wiped clean just because you said you're sorry.

And saying "You were an idiot in the 1980s and are now ready to join the century, you are still welcome" is very different than saying "Here, let's give you our highest honors and positions." There's a difference between forgiving someone and not expecting them to incur any consequences for their behavior.

And, in this instance, having a rough couple of days of being publicly embarrassed - after information comes out through no effort on your part - is NOT sufficient to allow someone to just pick up and start back up from exactly where they were.

You mentioned felons - but felons are felons not because they committed a crime, but because they were caught, arrested, charged, tried, convicted and served jail time. Only THEN are they "forgiven." They don't get caught and say, "Wow. You caught me. I'm sorry. I won't do it any more" and then go right back to what they were doing before they got caught. They have to deal with a whole lot of serious consequences - far more serious than Northam is expected to deal with. No one's suggesting he go on trial or go to jail or lose his voting rights or ability to make a living. He just shouldn't be governor any more - especially since he would never have been elected governor in the first place if this information had come out 18 months ago.

[Fresh_Start]

148. Forgiveness is not a two way street

Forgiveness is something we can do all by ourselves.

I had to forgive my father since hating him was hurting me.
He didn't have to do a single thing.

Yes, he could have chosen to atone for his actions and then I could have had a two way street to forgive him....but I knew he wasn't capable of it...so I forgave and moved on.

You are looking more for atonement than forgiveness.
And you have the right to want it.
But you can't expect everyone to agree with you or with what you think is the right way to atone.

Your answer is not the only answer although it is the right answer for you. But you can't expect other people to agree with you since this is your answer not a universal truth.

I've never been subjected to racism...although my family has.
But I've been subjected to religious bigotry and bigotry against immigrants.
And I've been subjected to misogyny.


I know that none of those are as bad as racism...though when you are a small child it still leaves scars.
So I'm not ignorant of how everyday events can still ring the bell and make you retreat into how you were feeling years ago when you were helpless.

And I am very sorry that Northum was able to hurt you that way.

You should understand that rape allegations hurt me that way so hearing about Fairfax to me is like seeing the blackface is to you.

I come from a long line of rape victims.
My grandmother was raped by a german guard while she was in a concentration camp. My aunt still feels she is not a real member of the family because she discovered she was the child of rape.

My mother was essentially raped by my father since she was forced into marriage with someone she did not know when she was 13.

I feel womens victimization in every cell of my body and every neuron in my brain.

But its not Fairfax's fault that I feel that, its a lifetime of experiences not him specifically.
So I don't expect him to atone. I don't know if he needs forgiveness though the odds are that she is honest about her experience. AND, he can also be honest about his experience...but the results are different for both of them. She suffered, he was not impacted

[EffieBlack]

154. Of course we can forgive him

But, as I said, forgiveness doesn't mean that we don't have to expect him to atone and make amends. He doesn't just get to behave the way he did, go along with his life with no consequences, then when the truth comes out - through no effort on his part - say, "Sorry" and then continue moving along with his life as if nothing ever happened.

When Dylan Roof slaughtered those poor people at Mother Emmanuel in South Carolina, many of the victims' families told him they forgave him. But that didn't mean the charges were dropped or that he got to escape punishment.

Forgiveness is a gift, an act of grace. It's not a get out of jail free card.

And black folk are tired of being asked to forgive everyone for every wrong, but when we ask them to atone for or own up to the consequences of their behavior - or even go through a little inconvenience - we're told that WE are being unfair, WE are trying to destroy their lives, WE must let bygones be bygones.

No. It's time for people who actually do the bad deeds to actually share the burden of this process. And asking him to step down from the seat that black folk put him in and that he wouldn't have come close to getting if it weren't for the black folk who are now supposed to forgive and forget is not a heavy burden for him to bear.

[Fresh_Start]

155. I understand you want that

He did not commit a crime so he doesn't need a get out of jail free card.

Forgiveness is a gift...we give ourselves...We free ourselves from the burden of the need for vengeance

I fully understand that POC have been asked to suffer disproportionately pretty much in every dimension in our world.

But he did not do something to make you suffer. As far as we know, he did not do anything specifically to make anyone suffer. He was an idiot.

I didn't tell you that you are being unfair.
You have every right to feel the way you do and want what you want.

I just disagree about what appropriate response is because I think stupid isn't the same as criminal.

You have righteous anger about the history of racial injustice in our country.

But its not clear to me that Northum is really the perpetrator of racial injustice.
If however you showed me that he didn't hire someone because of that persons color.
Or if he gave inferior medical care to children of color.
I would be right there with you screaming for his head.

[EffieBlack]

157. "He did not do something to make you suffer." That's not true

The photo at issue here and the behavior it depicted invoked pain in many people, including me. Even he acknowledged that.

Suppose the photo were of him simulating a gang rape with his buddies, including one dressed up like a drunk victim dressed in what they thought was slutty clothing? Would you say that this was harmless and he did not do anything to make anyone suffer? Would you think that it was sufficient for him to say he was sorry and then go on to continuing to be a governor of the state you lived in? Would you be quick to forgive that just because he said he was sorry and it had happened a long time ago?

Racial injustice - just like anti-woman, anti-LGBTQ, anti-Muslim injustice - is more than individual acts of discrimination. Perpetuating hateful racist stereotypes and glorifying racist terrorism is very dangerous and his gleeful participation in that perpetuation makes him deeply complicit in racial injustice.

[Fresh_Start]

161. Northum, did not make you suffer

he is reminding you of suffering you experienced at the hands of others.

Blasey Ford:Kavanaugh reminded me of the suffering I experienced at the hands of others
Tyson: Fairfax reminded me of the suffering I experienced at the hands of others
But Kavanaugh and Fairfax themselves did not harm me.

[EffieBlack]

18. They found nothing wrong with her story but they also found nothing to prove it

I don't care if she's a Democratic supporter or not. Her allegation, as it stands now, is NOT anywhere close to being sufficient to push Fairfax out of office.

[JCanete]

21. its being claimed as dirty tricks by Northam's office. Clearly no love lost between those two. I

certainly won't cast judgement on him based on this accusation unless facts emerge that are more solid. I'll hold my judgement on Northam's involvement as well.

[EffieBlack]

22. Northam's team was surely aware of the allegation since she shopped it to the Washington Post during

the campaign. Certainly this came to the attention of the Northam campaign.

Funny how it just happened to come out this weekend in the middle of Northam's meltdown. And how it came out, not with a woman coming forward and making a point blank allegation, but of her posting a cryptic post on her Facebook page, not naming names, and a "friend" screenshotting it and sending it to the outlet that spilled the beans on Northam.

This is all a little too raggedy for me to believe it's all a coincidence.

And it's pretty sickening to see many of the same people who circled the wagons around Northam in the face of uncontrovertible, documented and admitted proof of racist behavior, insisting that he should be protected and keep his job, so quick accept an accusation against Fairfax with exponentially less evidence.

[JCanete]

23. That is pretty sickening. Of course, if this is Northam or his team behind it, it seems vindictive

and not self-serving at all(at least intelligently), because jesus, if he's tied to this he's got no path of redemption. This would be, regarding direct racist consequences towards a person of color, exponentially worse than even his yearbook photo.

That said, it could just as easily be Republicans going after both men. I wont speculate because I'm really just learning about all of this.

[EffieBlack]

25. You're right. It could be the Republicans going after both men

If so, I think it's proof that they don't want Northam out of there. They're smearing Fairfax so that Democrats are afraid to push Northam out. They want him to stay in the job because he's a great buffer for any Democratic allegations against Trump.

However, I suspect that Northam is part of - or at least is encouraging - the Fairfax smear and he's using it to desperately hold on to his job.

[Fresh_Start]

45. it's offensive to call it "shopping"

she wasn't selling her story

[Empowerer]

24. What bothers me about this is how quick some people were to defend Northam

and, even though there was conclusive proof of his racist conduct, trash the whole thing as a dirty trick that we should overlook and stand up to by not making Northam leave office, but when it comes to Fairfax, a situation that not only smacks of ratfu##ing, but has racism smeared all over it (black male brute, etc.), some of those people are now all "well, you, know, it COULD be true so we'd better not take any chances. Maybe Fairfax should step aside so he doesn't cause any more damage to the party."

[EffieBlack]

26. Exactly!

[redstatebluegirl]

28. I tend to believe the woman, but in this case the timing is interesting to say the least.

[EffieBlack]

29. I tend to believe women in these situations, but that doesn't mean I believe the woman in EVERY

situation.

And this situation seems verrry shaky so far.

And I'm really not happy about people refusing to believe their own eyes and ears when it comes to clear proof of acts of racism by a white man but being quick to believe a very suspicious, uncorroborated allegation against a black man.

[redstatebluegirl]

30. I agree.

I dated a Black man for 4 years. The amount of times we were stopped by police because he drove a luxury car, the times we were put in the back of a restaurant because we were interracial I an't even count. The nasty stuff I saw up close was scary to me and life changing. A few years ago he was accused by a woman of sexual assault, it came to pass that it was about him getting tenure at his university and she did not. I testified on his behalf.

I agree with you, when it involves a Black man the rules are different.

[irresistable]

31. Does this sound like the bio of someone who would make a false accusation?

https://casbs.stanford.edu/people/vanessa-tyson

Vanessa Tyson will use her fellowship year to research the politics and policies surrounding sexual violence against women and children in the United States. More specifically, she will explore political discourse surrounding sexual assault, corresponding policies, and the unique identities of sexual assault survivors.


Tyson spent years volunteering as an advocate for sexual violence awareness and prevention, serving as one of the founding members of the Boston Area Rape Crisis Center Survivor Speakers’ Bureau, and starting a self-esteem/self-awareness program for female juvenile offenders through the Department of Youth Services in the State of Massachusetts.

[EffieBlack]

34. All manner of people can make false accusations notwithstanding their bio.

Just like all manner of people, even those with outstanding bios, can assault women.

Or would you accept it if someone argued that Justin Fairfax's stellar professional and personal bio proves he couldn't have committed sexual assault?

[irresistable]

35. It isn't merely outstanding....most of her bio is about helping sexual abuse victims....

and researching sexual abuse.

I wonder if there was a particular event in her life that influenced her choice.

[MosheFeingold]

40. "I wonder if there was a particular event in her life that influenced her choice."

I had the same immediate thought.

I've been very involved with veterans jobs issues for 50 years -- mainly because I came back from war and considered myself lucky to stumble into a job.

People do what they can relate to.

[pnwmom]

133. Her book is about politics -- that's what most of her career has been related to. n/t

[njhoneybadger]

72. No it doesn't. I don't how she could be more credible

[peggysue2]

32. In some quarters the allegation is all it takes

I've read some pretty appalling posts today (not here specifically) with just that tilt. Which makes me all the more convinced we need to hold the line on the Justin Fairfax story.

At this moment, this is an allegation. But that's all it is. Unless or until there are details that tip the scale against a Fairfax denial, the man deserves to be supported and welcomed into the Governor's mansion once Northam vacates. This isn't a Kavanaugh situation where those additional details were, in fact, exposed, where we had testimony from both parties, etc. Right now, this is 50/50 proposition, a classic he said/she said situation.

I'm guessing we will to get additional details because I've read the young woman has hired the law firm that represented Dr. Ford. Whether those details will be convincing, who knows? But until then, Fairfax should not be prejudged or torn into pieces. He won his election fair and square and should be considered the next in line.

Btw, what I've read about this story is that the hookup was consensual, the foreplay was consensual until at some point the young woman was uncomfortable with where the sex play was going. She wanted to stop. So, the argument appears to be either Fairfax didn't get the signal or he deliberately refused to stop.

Which is why these cases are so difficult unless you're a fly on the wall or manage mind-meld with each individual at that particular moment in time.

There's probably more to roll out. But I find the timing of this second go-around wa-a-ay too convenient.

[EffieBlack]

36. I agree

And I, too, am troubled by much of what I'm reading - especially from those who just a couple of days ago were all about not jumping to conclusions, not punishing someone for something that happened years ago, bending over backwards to give the benefit of the doubt, being willing to look the other way in order to protect a Democrat even if they did something awful, etc. - at least if that terrible awful was racism.

But now, all of a sudden, where a young black man with no history of any such behavior is accused of sexual assault without any evidence supporting the claim, these same folks have pivoted back to zero tolerance.

It's disgusting. And very transparent. And it makes me fear for my party and my country because it's obvious there are some real issues here that haven't been recognized, much less addressed.

[MosheFeingold]

38. Concur a little

You are right it is an old tactic -- but mainly from white women.

This appears to be a well-credentialed, professional, black female of similar political stripes:

http://vanessactyson.com/bio/

"A social scientist by training, Vanessa Tyson currently teaches in the Department of Politics at Scripps College in Claremont, CA. Her courses include Black Americans and the Political System; Women and Public Policy; Introduction to Public Policy; Research Design; and Environmental Policy in the US.

Dr. Tyson’s first book, Twists of Fate: Multiracial Coalitions and Minority Representation in the US House of Representatives (Oxford University Press, 2016), explores structural inequality in the United States, and how members of Congress have formed multiracial coalitions as a strategy to provide for their diverse constituencies.

As an expert on US Congress, policy formulation, race, gender, and social justice, Dr. Tyson has an extensive background in both US and California politics. Having worked on political campaigns since she was a teenager, including three Presidential campaigns, two US Senate campaigns, and numerous state and local campaigns, she carefully considers how political dynamics affect policy formulation and consequent outcomes. Tyson has been featured in US News and World Report, the Sacramento Bee, NPR, The Huffington Post, and The Bryan Callen Show.

Dr. Tyson spent years working as an advocate for sexual violence awareness and prevention, serving as one of the founding members of the Boston Area Rape Crisis Center Survivor Speakers’ Bureau, and starting a self-esteem/self-awareness program for female juvenile offenders through the Department of Youth Services in the State of Massachusetts.

Dr. Tyson has a bachelor’s degree from Princeton University in politics, coupled with a certificate in African American Studies, and a M.A. and Ph.D. from the University of Chicago in political science. She has won numerous awards for teaching excellence."

Seems to take both political motivation AND racism out of the equation.

[EffieBlack]

42. Let's be clear - I'm certainly not suggesting her accusation is based on racism

But I do think the right wing smear machine is bringing this forward now and taking full advantage of it because they know how people react to a black man being accused of rape. Many people are much more likely to believe it and use it against him because it simply confirms negative stereotypes they already harbor about black men.

We can't look at this situation without that context.

THAT's my point.

[melman]

46. But you are accusing her of being part of a ratfucking operation

you said it right here----> https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11776608

[EffieBlack]

50. I didn't say what you claimed I said

I said IF this is a ratf*cking operation. I didn't accuse her of anything.

But there are only a few possible truths here:

She is telling the truth and Fairfax is a rapist
Fairfax is telling the truth and she is lying as part of a plan to frame him
Fairfax is telling the truth and she is lying for another reason
Fairfax is telling the truth but she honestly believes he raped her

So, since you think the possibility that she is part of a ratf*cking operation should not even be mentioned, you must assume either that she is lying for another reason, that she is confused, or that Fairfax is a rapist. Which of three alternatives do you think it is?

[MosheFeingold]

52. Oh, absolutely.

No doubt polticos of all stripes will use whatever to their advantage.

But, as it doesn't change the underlying allegation, which is what matters.

If she was a fire-breathing MAGA women, I'd have more doubts.

That said, I am not a "believe all women zealot". I'm a lawyer and dabbled a bit in family court (aka "liars court" ). I know, from indisputable video evidence (and other things) that many women (and men) lie all the time about all sorts of things, including rape and molestation. Give some people a motive, and they will say whatever the hell you want.

That said, she doesn't -- unlike a bitter spouse, scorned lover, or a bitter political rival -- have a particular motive to lie that I see.

But, in yet anther hand, I also am, as an old lawyer, a firm believer in statutes of limitations, because the passage of time destroys memories, evidence, and the ability to defend yourself.

So, I'd file this under the same file as Kavenaugh -- may be something there, but you should have said something 15+ years ago.

As it sits now, it's neither provable, nor disprovable.

[RockaFowler]

49. And right on cue - Jacob Wohl's stench is all over this

Link to tweet

Right-wing operatives Jacob Wohl and Jack Burkman are promising a $15,000 cash reward to anyone who gives them info that leads to the resignation of VA Lt. Gov. Justin Fairfax.

Wohl and Burkman's last attempt at something like this backfired horribly.

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/right-wing-hucksters-offer-bounty-for-information-leading-justin-fairfaxs-resignation/

Last year, Wohl and Burkman attempted to push an unsubstantiated claim that Robert Mueller, the special prosecutor appointed to investigate Russian interference in the 2016 election, had sexually assaulted a woman in 2010. By the end of the press conference, their story had so completely fallen apart that they dodged reporters as they exited the building. The source of their claims was a fake research firm called Surefire Intelligence, for which Wohl appeared to have created online profiles for ahead of the attempted smear. Surefire Intelligence, Wohl said, will be partly responsible for the promised payout.

[EffieBlack]

54. Here we go

The sad part is that, even if the rape allegation goes nowhere, the damage has been done. A black man accused of rape has a very difficult time getting the kinds of second chances given to, say, a white man with a proven history of blatant racism ...

[theboss]

60. A black woman taking money from a RW grifter would probably have a hard time too

I mean, you seem pretty good at accusing her of being a tool of right-wing grifters without actually accusing her of being a tool of right-wing grifters. I suppose the alternative is that she is just mentally ill or really stupid.

[EffieBlack]

64. Since I haven't accused her of anything, I shouldn't even waste my time responding

But consider this:

There are really only four possibilities here:

1. She's telling the truth and Fairfax raped her
2. Fairfax didn't rape her and she's lying to help frame him
3. Fairfax didn't rape her and she's lying for another reason
4. Fairfax didn't rape her but she genuinely believes he did (whether because of mental illness, stupidity or something else)

Do you think that any of these alternatives is impossible? If so, why?

[theboss]

70. I think they are all possible

I think those 4 are still all possible for a multitude of recent situations, and we aren't being consistent at all with how we are approaching this.

[njhoneybadger]

83. 2+3 she needs a motive and Fairfax would probably know that motive

4 seems unlikely given her education

[EffieBlack]

93. Educated women aren't any less likely to have emotional issues than uneducated ones

Please don't advance classism. There seems to be an assumption that her education and class make her more credible, which is kind of a backslap at poor, less-educated women.

I'm not suggesting that she should be seen as less credible than you think she is - but it's not her education or job that makes woman credible in cases like this.

[njhoneybadger]

153. Yes of course, I was referring to the stupidity, anyone can have a mental illness

[pnwmom]

136. Effie has never implied that the woman was a tool of right-wing grifters.

We know very little about the woman now except that she teaches political science and has been an advocate for victims of sexual violence. Maybe the assault actually happened (though we don't have an official statement from her yet) or maybe it didn't.

We know the Post couldn't find anything to confirm her story, anyone she had told her story to in all those years of volunteering, or anyone else who confirmed that he had behaved badly.

Why the rush to judgment? Why can't we wait to see what this woman has to say, if she's actually hired a law firm?

[theboss]

58. So a decorated college professor decided that $15K from Jacob Freakin Wohl was too tempting

Let me get this straight. Graduate Princeton. Graduate U of C. Become a professor. Become a fellow at Stanford. Make a career out of advocating for sexual assault. All apparently as a cover to get enough money for a used Ford Focus from a 20 year old grifter.

I have to say, your story checks out.

[EffieBlack]

66. Jacob Wohl isn't offering the money to her, nor did RockaFowler suggest he did

She's already come forward. The tweet and story are clear: Wohl is trolling for other people to come forward.

At least he's being honest that this has nothing to do with seeking justice - he wants Fairfax ousted.

[theboss]

71. So you disagree with #49 that this has Wohl's stench on it?

Maybe I misread your response.

[EffieBlack]

80. I think it does have Wohl's stench all over it

Not that I think he's responsible for the allegation. But his eagerness to jump into it and use it to his own ends turns it into a filthy, political mess.

[theboss]

88. What does that even mean?

He would jump into any allegation against a Democrat.

Does that make the accuser less credible?

[EffieBlack]

98. Ii explained myself in very plain English that should be easy to understand

And I didn't say Wohl's involvement made the accuser less credible. In fact, I made clear I WASN'T saying that.

[theboss]

110. Then why bring him up?

Or comment on someone else bringing him up since you are going to say, "I didn't bring him up?"

[EffieBlack]

112. Maybe for the same reason you're commenting on my comment on someone else bringing him up ...

[pnwmom]

130. LOL

[pnwmom]

129. If any woman comes forward who was paid by him, her claim would have zero credibility.

And any other woman would be more suspect, simply because of the thought that there could be a hidden financial motive.

[lark]

77. Not believing women is also a time honored tactic.

[EffieBlack]

90. True. But that's an issue that has been discussed and highlighted and our entire society is

grappling to address (e.g., #MeToo).

There has been much less consideration of the history of black men being falsely accused of rape in this country. And it's one of the reasons that many black women I know, while supportive of the #MeToo movement, also look at it a bit askance given how often white women were complicit in the destruction and deaths of black men through false allegations of rape.

I'm certainly not saying that's what's happening here. But it does still occur and our society still suffers the remnants of that ugly history when it was much more prevalent. And one of those remnants is a tendency of some to be much more likely to presume (consciously or unconsciously) a black man to be capable of sexual violence (whether the victim is white or black) and a reluctance to give them the same benefit of the doubt they'd unhesitatingly give to a white man in the same situation.

[lark]

104. I understand that ugly sordid history.

There were way too many black men lynched when someone's white daughter turned up pregnant and pointed the finger at one of them instead of the real dad. It is a totally shameful, sickening and heinous part of our history. Unfortunately the true history of men raping or assaulting women is multi-cultural, and yes, people often side with the man, regardless of ethnicity, especially when he has money.

[pnwmom]

92. Remember when the woman was accusing the Duke students? And she was lying.

A certain, small percent of these accusations are false.

The difficulty is figuring out when.

[lark]

99. Such a sore subject.

I want to believe all women, but unfortunately, some of them do lie - like the Duke accuser. I know for sure there are many more real victims who aren't believed or who fail to come forward to the police or a hospital than there are women who lie about this topic. It's so personally painful lots women just never tell anyone, it hurts too much.

I used to work as a rape counselor, so this is really hitting me hard.

[pnwmom]

101. I think most women are probably torn. But I'm uncomfortable with a new standard

that -- in the absence of any other evidence -- any woman's word matters more than any man's word.

[theboss]

103. Then we on the Left need to figure this out

Either we "Believe All Women" or we don't.

Question. I'm guessing that - like me - you couldn't have named Virginia's Lt Governor until this week (and I'm a landlord in Virginia).

Would you have been as torn if he had an R after his name?

[pnwmom]

108. I don't think we should "believe all women" over all men in the absence of any evidence.

It's not a matter of a D or an R to me. I am married to a man I love and have sons and a brother I love. Should I put all women above them, no matter what?

The fact that for far too long, real victims were disregarded, or blamed for what was done to them doesn't mean we can go to the opposite extreme.

It is UNLIKELY that a woman who is reporting a sexual assault is lying. But it is possible. And there is a long history of black men being falsely accused of sexual assault. Remember the Central Park non-rapists? The ones Trump took out a full page ad against, calling for the death penalty?

So, based on the limited information we have now, I am torn. If we never learn anything more than we know today, I'll remain torn.

But if he behaved as she said he did, then he's probably the kind of man who did this with other women, too. If they come forward, things may be clearer.

[EffieBlack]

143. Imagine how history would have changed if Barack Obama was accused of assaulting a woman

under these circumstances.

What if, in 2007, a woman said that Barack Obama had assaulted her in his apartment in 1991 when he was a student at Harvard. There were no witnesses, and she had nothing to corroborate her claim, but she was a highly educated woman with a prestigious job. He denied it, but had no proof that he didn't do it.

Should Sen. Obama have been presumed to be a rapist based on this allegation? Would the fact that he had an impeccable reputation and no history at all of abusing or assaulting women matter? Is there any reason that he should have been given the benefit of the doubt? Is there anything he could have done to prove that he wasn't a rapist?

[pnwmom]

145. So, the MeToo movement, with all the good it has done,

has a potential dark side -- people like Jacob Wohl deciding to use it for their purposes.

And, if they do it often enough, there will be a general backlash against women claiming to be victims.

Great. We lose, no matter what we do.

[lark]

106. Its not that way in the courts.

Courts often side with men, way more often than they side with the woman. They often attack the woman for daring to bring charges against some well-heeled ass.

I am very torn on this subject. I know Leeann Tweeden is a rw liar, but what about Fairfax's accuser? She doesn't seem to fit that mold. What do you do when you have 2 credible people making diametrically opposite claims?

[pnwmom]

109. If there is no other evidence then there is reasonable doubt.

But a cloud will remain no matter what -- which cannot be satisfying to anyone.

[EffieBlack]

113. Well, it's satisfying to some people ...

[pnwmom]

114. Right -- I did forget for a moment.

If it helped them reach a goal, some people would be happy to throw a permanent cloud over an innocent person's life.

[EffieBlack]

116. At this point, it doesn't matter if it's true or not

JBerryHill made an interesting point - that she hasn't actually made a public accusation. But it's out there anyway.

[pnwmom]

127. Now the story is that she's hired a law firm. And her name is out there.

But I don't know what lawyers can do if there really is no evidence. Do they try cases from 14 years ago with nothing but he said, he said?

[Hekate]

82. Yep

[Caliman73]

86. A seriously complicated issue.

With the advent of the MeToo movement there has been a push to not dismiss allegations so there is that pressure not to jump to accusing women of lying.

As you astutely pointed out, there is also a history of accusing Black men of rape, then killing those Black men. That was the spark that set off the Tulsa Riots and what lost Emmet Till his life (the woman confessing that she made the story up decades later).

When you pit two historically marginalized groups against each other it becomes an overall tragedy. The worst part is that unlike the Northam situation which we also know was instigated by Right Wing bastards, Northam basically sunk himself with his really stupid response. Fairfax is fighting this the only way he really can, which presents as a man trying to silence a woman from reporting an assault.

I think that at this time, as you said, given the nature of the allegation and the source, time and more information is needed to come to a conclusion on this issue.

[Loki Liesmith]

87. A good standard

Corroboration and evidence.

Absent that I don’t see how one can draw any conclusion.

[still_one]

144. You are right, but regardless they will

[MaryMagdaline]

146. For those who wonder about the timing

When opposition research uncovers bad stuff, it will always come out when it can do the maximum harm. That’s the whole point. Northam was holding strong for abortion rights. The RW went after him. No reason for them to hold back any longer. He might have even motivated some RWer who went to med school with him to point someone to a yearbook. Doesn’t mean that he isn’t a racist, just because it’s coming out now.

Fairfax is on the verge of becoming governor. If the RW can develop dirt on him, they will do it now. THEIR motivation is not the same as HER motivation. She could have come forward when he was running for Lt Governor because she was shocked that he might attain a position of great power and to do her civic duty OR to exact the most revenge possible. OR she could be lying. The almost certain harm to her own life and reputation by coming forward makes me tend to believe her. If I put value on her education, it is because I know that someone With that education is LIKELY although not conclusively likely to understand she is putting herself in harm’s way by coming forward.

If I’m in the Fairfax camp for now it is simply a sort of “say it isn’t so, Joe” moment. On an emotional level, I want it not to be true. With Northam, the evidence was so conclusive that he had been a racist, an annoyingly insistent racist at that, that my emotional response was anger that he would contaminate our party. Couldn’t give him the benefit of the doubt when I saw the yearbook.

[LexVegas]

169. ...

[pault420]

173. You need to take your concerns to all the presidential candidates calling for resignations

Corey Booker a black guy being one of them. I'm totally in agreement with you, but the damage is being done is by our candidates who seemingly need to up each other and constantly be ahead of the news cycle before ONE SHRED of evidence!

[jberryhill]

174. As someone on DU once said....

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211634134#post9

Too many in the black community, conditioned by decades of injustice against black men, irrationally defended and protected this black man who deserved no defense or protection. And the white community just didn't care about these black girls.

[Jose Garcia]

175. Correction:

Falsely accusing black men of raping white women is an old tactic, especially in the South