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Mon Feb 4, 2019, 10:17 AM

How did the man on Ralph Northam's yearbook page get his Klan outfit?

As one of the speakers on MSNBC said, you just can't buy one at a costume store, not in 2019 or 1984.

Did someone, cough, know someone in a domestic terrorist organization?

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Reply How did the man on Ralph Northam's yearbook page get his Klan outfit? (Original post)
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 OP
Soxfan58 Feb 2019 #1
Empowerer Feb 2019 #9
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #14
Empowerer Feb 2019 #19
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #23
Empowerer Feb 2019 #24
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #25
jberryhill Feb 2019 #33
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #36
jberryhill Feb 2019 #38
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #40
jberryhill Feb 2019 #43
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #47
jberryhill Feb 2019 #57
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #58
jberryhill Feb 2019 #60
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #61
jberryhill Feb 2019 #62
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #63
jberryhill Feb 2019 #70
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #73
jberryhill Feb 2019 #75
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #77
jberryhill Feb 2019 #79
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #81
jberryhill Feb 2019 #84
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #85
jberryhill Feb 2019 #87
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #88
jberryhill Feb 2019 #89
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #92
jberryhill Feb 2019 #93
mcar Feb 2019 #71
jberryhill Feb 2019 #72
mcar Feb 2019 #74
jberryhill Feb 2019 #76
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #78
jberryhill Feb 2019 #80
mopinko Feb 2019 #46
Cracklin Charlie Feb 2019 #34
Empowerer Feb 2019 #35
Cracklin Charlie Feb 2019 #37
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #42
Mariana Feb 2019 #49
marble falls Feb 2019 #2
TheCowsCameHome Feb 2019 #3
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #4
Cracklin Charlie Feb 2019 #39
LongtimeAZDem Feb 2019 #5
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #7
Rorey Feb 2019 #6
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #8
Rorey Feb 2019 #11
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #20
Rorey Feb 2019 #29
Rorey Feb 2019 #13
jberryhill Feb 2019 #10
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #12
jberryhill Feb 2019 #15
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #17
jberryhill Feb 2019 #31
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #32
yardwork Feb 2019 #64
sprinkleeninow Feb 2019 #82
yardwork Feb 2019 #90
PeeJ52 Feb 2019 #16
Decoy of Fenris Feb 2019 #18
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #26
Decoy of Fenris Feb 2019 #28
sprinkleeninow Feb 2019 #86
ret5hd Feb 2019 #21
Polybius Feb 2019 #22
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #27
Polybius Feb 2019 #103
rampartc Feb 2019 #30
Mariana Feb 2019 #41
jberryhill Feb 2019 #45
yardwork Feb 2019 #65
Mariana Feb 2019 #94
jberryhill Feb 2019 #96
yardwork Feb 2019 #98
jberryhill Feb 2019 #99
d_r Feb 2019 #44
Sneederbunk Feb 2019 #48
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #51
lostnfound Feb 2019 #50
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #52
lostnfound Feb 2019 #54
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #56
cwydro Feb 2019 #59
Mariana Feb 2019 #67
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #69
yardwork Feb 2019 #66
Gothmog Feb 2019 #53
JCMach1 Feb 2019 #55
EffieBlack Feb 2019 #68
Mr. Quackers Feb 2019 #83
Mariana Feb 2019 #95
JustABozoOnThisBus Feb 2019 #91
jberryhill Feb 2019 #97
Hekate Feb 2019 #100
jberryhill Feb 2019 #102
TwistOneUp Feb 2019 #101

Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 10:24 AM

1. A sheet, cardboard, and a pair of scissors.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Reply #1)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 10:34 AM

9. It's a pretty elaborate costume

Pointy sleeves, etc.

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Response to Empowerer (Reply #9)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 10:40 AM

14. Doe this look like something one could put together on the fly?

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #14)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 10:50 AM

19. No. It's not a sheet they just threw on. It's a full-on Klan outfit.

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Response to Empowerer (Reply #19)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 10:52 AM

23. There's a lot of detail. That's for sure.

Whoever put it together really cared.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #23)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 10:53 AM

24. And they didn't don't go online to get it. They had to go through some effort.

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Response to Empowerer (Reply #24)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 10:56 AM

25. No internet in 1984 either.

Either it's a Klan outfit or Ralph or one of his friends took a significant amount of time to put it together.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #25)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 11:19 AM

33. When did mouth holes become a thing in Klan outfits?

 


I can't seem to find an image of any Klan outfits where the hood is that round and conical, instead of pleated, and I can't find any with mouth holes in the front. Do you have a reference image you are using?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #33)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 11:28 AM

36. It looks like a Klan outfit to me.

Let's say I saw four men beating a black man and I called the police, and the assailants looked like the man in the sheet and hood on Ralph Northam's yearbook page. The police would ask me what they were wearing and I would say, Officer, it looked like they were wearing Klan outfits. That would be my honest recollection.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #36)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 11:34 AM

38. So you don't have an answer to either question

 

Going from:

1. it is a genuine Klan outfit, to

2. It is something that someone might think looks like a Klan outfit,

Are two different statements.

So, if I show you a ring with a rock in it, and say "this is a diamond ring" then what matters are the similarities, instead of the differences? Like, it's a ring, and it has a rock. So does a diamond ring - end of story.

Your question was about "Is this a genuine Klan outfit", not "does it look like a Klan image to me".

Usually, if the question is "Is this a genuine X", then you compare the sample to known exemplars of X, and look for differences, not similarities. Unless, of course, you are trying to force a predetermined result.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #38)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 11:41 AM

40. I have testified under oath before.

If I was asked what that outfit looks like to me I would say it looks like a Klan outfit to me. If I was asked to testify to its provenance or authenticity I would say I don't know.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #40)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 11:54 AM

43. "How did the man on Ralph Northam's yearbook page get his Klan outfit?"

 


Okay, I misunderstood the point of this thread. I had believed it to be a question about whether or not the robe may be a genuine Klan robe, based on the subject line of the OP, since there is usually not much of a reason to ask other people "What do I think?"

Carry on.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #43)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 12:06 PM

47. If I said I could vouch for its authenticity or provenance I would be lying.

I was using idiomatic English. It looked like a Klan outfit to me so I called it a Klan outfit. Do I know if he borrowed it from David Duke or it's an artifact from Nathan Bedford Forrest's garage, if he had one, or he sewed himself I don't know.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #47)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 01:39 PM

57. Okay, well perhaps there might be a way to figure out if it is a real Klan outfit

 


By, for example, determining whether there are any significant differences between the outfit in the photo and actual Klan outfits.

One question that might inform such an inquiry - as the OP is posed as a question - is "Do Klan outfits have mouth holes?"

Another might be "What sort of belt is worn with a Klan outfit?"

Or one can simply pretend one is blind, and insist that the answer is unknowable.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #57)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 01:42 PM

58. Is there official Klan regalia that is de rigueur for anybody who dons one?

I was looking at Klan depictions in movies including Blazing Saddles and Django Unchained. I can't link them because the dialogue might get me a hide. Anybody can google them. They look very much like the outfits Mr. Northam or his partner are alleged to have worn.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #58)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 01:56 PM

60. Your question assumes there is

 


Otherwise, what is the point of asking?

Having made the mistake of taking your question seriously, i've looked at a bunch of Klan outfits and capirotas on Google images. Not a single one with an ordinary belt or mouth hole, and none of the Klan outfits were that tall and conical.

You want to believe that the person in the picture is a Klan member, so far be it from me to get in between someone and their dreams.

The answer to the question "Do Klan outfits have mouth holes" is, I suppose, as fundamentally unknowable as the distinction posed by your question between a "real Klan outfit" and something that someone cocked up with an ordinary robe, cardboard, fabric and glue. However, in the event you had a genuine interest in looking at many exemplars of actual Klan outfits, Google Images is a click away. If one assumes that the overwhelming run of Google Images searches reflects an objective reality, then it is pretty obvious that either (a) it is not an actual Klan outfit, or (b) it is an extremely unusual one in failing to resemble many actual Klan outfits in fairly significant and apparent ways.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #60)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 02:04 PM

61. At the risk of an appeal to popularity fallacy

You want to believe that the person in the picture is a Klan member,


Nowhere in this entire thread have I said the person in the photo is a Klansman. What I have suggested is the person in the photo might have borrowed it from a Klansman.


At the risk of an appeal to popularity fallacy almost everybody who has seen the photo assumes the photo is a photo of a man in blackface and photo of a man in a Klan uniform or I have imagined this whole controversy?

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #61)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 02:19 PM

62. Do you think one of the people in the photograph is black?

 


At the risk of an appeal to popularity fallacy almost everybody who has seen the photo assumes the photo is a photo of a man in blackface and photo of a man in a Klan uniform or I have imagined this whole controversy?


The discussion has become silly. Obviously, it is someone dressed in a way as to suggest they are a Klan member. Just as obviously, this person's impression of a Klan outfit, on which they premised their costume, was mistaken in several details. However, for the purpose of a costume, as opposed to an actual uniform, it clearly serves the purpose.

Let's see if this can be made clearer...



Do you suppose this person is a soldier? Or is it someone wearing a costume that is supposed to sufficiently resemble a soldier for the purpose of wearing a costume?

I'm not sure, but I'm going to guess that your position would be that it is impossible to tell, so reality essentially becomes a "choose your own adventure" proposition, despite the numerous differences between what that person is wearing, and the regular issue clothing for soldiers in any identifiable fighting force on the planet.

The "mouth hole" KKK units are obviously a select and elite group, because outside of this particular photograph, there is no trace of their existence in any documented photograph of actual klansmen that can be found.

In answer to your question, I do not believe as you do that the "whole controversy" revolves around whether someone is wearing an actual Klan outfit as opposed to a costume designed to resemble one in a superficial way. Because I don't think the offensiveness of the image depends on the Klan outfit being real.

If you believe the "whole controversy" is about this being an actual Klan outfit, I would charitably suggest that you do not understand why it is offensive to dress that way, regardless of whether the outfit is in any sense "real", as this one is obviously not.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #62)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 02:27 PM

63. That so grossly

If you believe the "whole controversy" is about this being an actual Klan outfit, I would charitably suggest that you do not understand why it is offensive to dress that way, regardless of whether the outfit is in any sense "real", as this one is obviously not.



Let me preface my remarks by saying I have always been civil to you. That is such a gross mischaracterization of my views on the topic that I have to believe they were intended to demean me, and done with actual malice.

It's a guy in blackface and a guy in a Klan outfit or a facsimile of one. Both images are extraordinarily offensive, regardless of the provenance or authenticity of the latter.

That being said I will be the bigger poster, take the high road, and not respond in kind.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #63)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 02:47 PM

70. Was this a sincere question:

 

At the risk of an appeal to popularity fallacy almost everybody who has seen the photo assumes the photo is a photo of a man in blackface and photo of a man in a Klan uniform or I have imagined this whole controversy?


You want to believe it is a 'real' Klan outfit, whatever that may mean, because you want to advance the hypothesis that Northam and/or the person in the picture was a member of the Klan. That is the only way to understand the OP. After having pointed out distinctions between the costume in the photograph and literally thousands of pictures of actual Klan members you can conjure up on Google Images just as readily as anyone else, you pose the question above, suggesting that the whole controversy revolves around whether it is a Klan uniform, or something that someone put together in order to resemble one.

Both images are extraordinarily offensive, regardless of the provenance or authenticity of the latter.


Indeed. So perhaps I have misunderstood the point of the question which is the premise of this thread, in which you advance the proposition - in the form of a question - that the Klan outfit is 'authentic' in some sense. It is obviously not, but that bothers you for reasons I could not begin to guess.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #70)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 02:54 PM

73. Nowhere

You want to believe it is a 'real' Klan outfit, whatever that may mean, because you want to advance the hypothesis that Northam and/or the person in the picture was a member of the Klan.



Nowhere in this entire conversation did I suggest either man in the photo was a member of the Klan or that the righteous anger and outrage the photo provoked is contingent on either person in the photo being an actual member of the Klan. It's the mere image that inflames. Any dispassionate reader can see that. What I did suggest is perhaps he borrowed it from an actual member:


"Did someone, cough, know someone in a domestic terrorist organization?"



It seems the implication as well as the logical inference one would make is I was suggesting he borrowed it.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #73)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 03:01 PM

75. "What I did suggest is perhaps he borrowed it from an actual member."

 


Which brings us back to whether the costume in question is a "genuine Klan outfit".

So, I asked "When did mouth holes become a thing in Klan outfits?" because even a casual search and comparison of news photographs of persons wearing Klan outfits strongly indicates that Klan outfits don't seem to have mouth holes as a matter of course.

From there, you went to statements along the line of "it looks like one to me", and being offended at the suggestion that comparison with actual Klan outfits suggests this one differs from others in several respects. This leads me to the conclusion that there is some problem in acknowledging that this costume seems to be significantly different from news photographs of actual Klansmen, and that you find this disappointing or offensive in some way.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #75)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 03:07 PM

77. Believing

Believing it is not an official Klan outfit and believing wearing a reasonable facsimile of one and putting it your med school yearbook is inherently offensive are not mutually exclusive. Some posters seem to believe that outfit is something you can just throw together. That doesn't seem likely to me.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #77)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 03:13 PM

79. That it is offensive is not subject to debate, nor the point of the OP

 


The OP is not asking if it is offensive. The OP is asking if the robe is real.

It is offensive either way. I'm not the one who suggested the "whole controversy" revolves around whether it is real.

That doesn't seem likely to me.

Okay, on what facts do you base your opinion of whether it is likely an actual Klan robe or not, and how do you address the several facts suggesting it is not?

That's a typical way of sorting out what might be "true" in the event one subscribes to an objective reality - by considering facts.

If you want to say "I just believe that way", that's fine. In my experience, asking questions invites answers. Fact-based answers may conflict with faith-based beliefs.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #79)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 03:20 PM

81. Nowhere

"It is offensive either way. I'm not the one who suggested the "whole controversy" revolves around whether it is real."


Nowhere in my myriad posts on this topic did I suggest the controversy is contingent on the provenance or authenticity of the outfit. That was a a little chestnut you introduced. What we are discussing is if there is an official Klan outfit.

Okay, on what facts do you base your opinion of whether it is likely an actual Klan robe or not, and how do you address the several facts suggesting it is not?


Because it has the general appearance of a Klan outfit and I'm not convinced an official Klan outfit exists. Wouldn't we need expert witnesses to ascertain that?


We could get David Duke or Jeff Sessions.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #81)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 03:45 PM

84. Lol

 

Your point is about whether Northam and his circle associated with KKK members, such that one of Northam's associates would have been able to casually borrow a KKK member's outfit. Because, yeah, sure, Klansman loan them out all of the time because they're friendly like that.


Wouldn't we need expert witnesses to ascertain that.


You need an expert witness to answer the question:

"If you do a Google Image search for 'KKK outfit' and compare actual news and other photographs of actual KKK members (and sorting out ones which clearly aren't, like that light purple number), do you see any with mouth holes?"

That doesn't require expertise of any kind.

As to the existence of "official" ones, yes, there certainly used to be:



https://www.buzzfeed.com/copyranter/your-official-ku-klux-klan-robe-catalog

But in the game of "One of these things is not like the others" I don't recall Sesame Street calling in expert witnesses for what is a fairly simple one-to-many comparison.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #84)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 03:52 PM

85. That catalog is from 1925.

The photo we are discussing is from 1984. Do you have a more recent catalog and not one that was nearly sixty years old when the photo was taken?

And how does a nearly one hundred year old official catalog that was sixty years old at the time establish what was and wasn't an official Klan outfit in 1984?

Wouldn't it be appropriate to use a catalog of the same vintage of the outfit of which we are trying to divine its provenance and authenticity?



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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #85)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 04:04 PM

87. I am sorry you find Google difficult to use

 


However, it is clear that you are no longer even bothering to read the words I am writing.

I do not believe there is an "official Klan uniform". I do believe the various Klan groups are surprising consistent, despite that fact.

As to the existence of "official" ones, yes, there certainly used to be:

Let me explain the meaning of the phrase "used to be", since it seems to have passed you by. When someone says there "used to be" something, they are intending to indicate that the "something" in question existed at some time in the past, but no longer exists in the present.

Hence, your reply: "And how does a nearly one hundred year old official catalog that was sixty years old at the time establish what was and wasn't an official catalog in 1984?" is what is called a non sequitur. In the course of Googling this subject, which you refuse to do for reasons only known to you, I saw that old catalog, and included the tangential observation that apparently there used to be one - using that apparently unfamiliar phrase to indicate that it was something that existed in a past time, but no longer does.

This of course comes down the familiar problem (to some.. I won't guess) of "proving a negative". I have tried, through diligent effort in an earnest inquiry based on your question in the OP, to find a documented actual KKK person in news photographs through recent decades - a single one - with a mouth hole in their hood, an ordinary belt instead of a rope or sash, and a hood that tall and pointy. I cannot show you the absence of those things, because an actual klan outfit looking like the one in the Northam photograph does not appear to exist.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #87)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 04:10 PM

88. For the sake of discussion let's say it isn't an official Klan outfit

How does that mitigate the horror the imagery it conveys?

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #88)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 04:38 PM

89. Okay, for the sake of discussion, may I ask you to read what I have written?

 



What does this suggest to you:


"That it is offensive is not subject to debate, nor the point of the OP"


Do you understand the first clause of that sentence? "That it is offensive is not subject to debate"

That post, just up from this one, goes on to say:

"The OP is not asking if it is offensive. The OP is asking if the robe is real.

It is offensive either way."


For the sake of "discussion", it is helpful when the participants are each actually considering what the other one is saying.

I don't believe it mitigates Jack Shit, and if you had read my post above you would know that.

The OP appears to suggest that the outfit was obtained through the generous loan of a big-hearted KKK member, as they are prone to renting out their regalia like tuxedos and such, with the point being, I guess, that someone in Northam's social circle was a KKK member so-inclined, and of a handy suit size.

Since it is your OP, and I would imagine you would be the best person to explain why it is important to you to maintain that it is a genuine article, instead of asking me. I did not post the OP, so I don't know why it is important to you to insist the robe is genuine, in the sense that it is actual KKK apparel used by a member thereof.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #89)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 05:08 PM

92. All this obscurantism about whether or not the outfit is official obfuscates...

All this obscurantism about whether or not the outfit is official obfuscates the horror of the imagery.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #92)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 05:34 PM

93. Okay, then what was the point of the OP?

 

Obviously, I misunderstood whatever point you were trying to make in the OP. Could you perhaps rephrase and restate your question?

Based on the fact that you were led to post an OP proposing that it was a genuine Klan outfit, perhaps obtained from someone in Northam's social circle, I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that this question was important to you in some way - important enough to solicit the opinions of thousands of strangers as to whether it is or is not a genuine item.

Under the mistaken impression that the OP was posted for the purpose of discussing possible answers to the question it posed, I did an image search to get an idea of what "real" ones look like, in order to compare them to the one in the Northam picture, to advance what I believed to have been the purpose of your questions posed in the OP. The results strongly suggest that the outfit in the Northam picture is quite unlike any actual news photographs of actual klan persons.

You have taken great exception and offense to my stating that the image search results suggest it is not a genuine klan robe.

As I pointed out, I don't see why it matters, but then again I am not the one who posted an OP posing the question in the first place, or got upset at the suggestion that it does not resemble any news photographs of actual klan persons in recent decades.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #60)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 02:48 PM

71. I'm not sure where you are going with this or why

Are you trying to say that the outfit in the photo isn't an "official" Klan outfit? Why is that significant? You seem to have gone to a lot of research to prove your point, but I don't see why it matters.

Seems to me DSB pointed out that the outfit doesn't look like a thrown together pillowcase and bedsheet costume. Thus, someone went to some work to produce it.

In 1984.

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Response to mcar (Reply #71)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 02:52 PM

72. I'm seeking to answer the question which is the subject line of the OP

 

This thread is premised by a question about whether the depicted outfit came form an actual member of the KKK. If there is some other way to understand the inquiry in the OP, then feel free to explain it.


Did someone, cough, know someone in a domestic terrorist organization?

Perhaps I'm inordinately dense and this question means something else. If so, please explain what this question is trying to ask. The question is not about the effort involved or the degree of elaboration in the costume. The question is whether it came from an actual member of the KKK.

(and, yes, from the unusual branch of the KKK which has mouth holes in the front flap, and who have hitherto avoided being photographed)

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #72)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 02:56 PM

74. OP is asking how the weather got the uniform

The fact that there is a mouthhole and does not, therefore, confirm with you definition of proper KKK garb, does not take away from the question.

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Response to mcar (Reply #74)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 03:03 PM

76. So the question is unanswerable, I guess

 


I don't know what you mean by "take away from the question" if by "take away" you mean "pose a suggested answer based on verifiable facts."

It's an eternal mystery, like whether the moon is made of cheese or rocks. There is just no way to know.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #76)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 03:11 PM

78. Do you really believe you have established

Do you really believe you have established that there is such a thing as an official Klan outfit to your own satisfaction?

I'm not an expert on the Klan but were they or are that much of a regimented organization?

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #78)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 03:18 PM

80. No, and it is clear that you have an emotional attachment to an answer

 


I doubt there is a single "official Klan outfit".

In a Google search of the many and varied news photographs taken of Klansmen - who may be of various splinter and competing organizations - there is a complete absence of outfits with mouth holes. The front flap appears to be, for the most part, removable, since if you were interested in facts you would no doubt see in quite a number of such news photographs.

So, no, I don't think there is an "official Klan outfit".

There is a marked absence of actual Klan outfits of any sort which have mouth holes, use regular belts, or are that tall and conical. Those are simply observations of the vast quantity of actual news photographs of Klansmen in recent decades. They are facts.

It is a highly unusual Klan outfit, virtually unique to this picture. So, it was a very small troop, or brigade, or whatever they call themselves in groups, possibly limited to one member who, by amazing happenstance, was a friend-of-a-friend of Northam.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #33)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 11:58 AM

46. i think it is white make up on the face.

a little joke, white face, black face.

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Response to Empowerer (Reply #19)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 11:20 AM

34. Authentic.

Looks like the genuine article.

Probably why the governor won’t claim to be either of the people in the photograph.

Both outfits are disgusting.

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Response to Cracklin Charlie (Reply #34)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 11:22 AM

35. Even if he weren't in blackface, kind of hard to explain why he's posing with a Klansman

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Response to Empowerer (Reply #35)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 11:34 AM

37. Why do you think his friends called him that name?

They all know why.

I grew up in the south, a few years before Northam. I went to lots of parties, and I never saw these characters at any of them.

My friends and I did refuse to don blackface for a high school event in 1975. No one from my school ever blacked their face for that event, or any other, again.

Ps...I almost find the name they called him more offensive than any other slur. I’m not sure exactly why, but I hate it. I won’t type it.

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Response to Cracklin Charlie (Reply #37)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 11:47 AM

42. I lived in FL from 1970-2012.

The only time I saw blackface or a Klan outfit was on tv.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #14)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 12:41 PM

49. It looks like a plain white robe.

Plain white robes aren't hard to find, and they weren't hard to find in 1984.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 10:24 AM

2. Or pissed off his mom by cutting eyeholes in a perfectly good pillow case?

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 10:26 AM

3. Sewing/Crafts 101

it's as basic as it gets...

This isn't exactly from the wardrobe department at Downton Abbey.

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Response to TheCowsCameHome (Reply #3)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 10:28 AM

4. I picture some older man or woman in a cabin in the woods knitting them.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #4)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 11:39 AM

39. They're stored safely away in the cedar chest.

Likely to this very day.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 10:28 AM

5. YGBFKM

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Reply #5)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 10:30 AM

7. I admit to my ignorance on the subject as I never thought of wearing one.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 10:29 AM

6. Good question.

I don't know much about hate apparel, but it looks like more than just a sheet.

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Response to Rorey (Reply #6)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 10:32 AM

8. Res ipsa loqutur

I don't know much about hate apparel, but it looks like more than just a sheet.




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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #8)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 10:35 AM

11. He had the gall to suggest it isn't him

A decent human being would have raised a big fuss if that photo was included under his name in a yearbook.

It's him.

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Response to Rorey (Reply #11)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 10:50 AM

20. Arguing in the alternative let's say he made it himself.

The level of detail suggests he knew that photo would be preserved for perpetuity. Ditto for the man in blackface.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #20)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 11:03 AM

29. Given his height, I don't think there's a question about which one is him

Not that one is better than the other.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #8)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 10:39 AM

13. Northam is 6' tall

The person in blackface is significantly taller than the person in the klan costume. That should answer Northam's stupid question about which one is him.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 10:35 AM

10. Depends on whether they were in Spain during Holy Week

 

The typical Klan hood looks more like the "pointy" part is supported by pleats:



...not to be confused with the capirote - a traditional robe worn during Easter processions in some parts of Spain, which is much longer and more conical:

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #10)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 10:36 AM

12. Northam should have said the man in blackface was a penitent and the man in the sheet was a priest.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #12)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 10:42 AM

15. heh

 


The hat is fairly conical for a Klan hood. My bet would be cardboard and a pillow case.

If it is an actual Klan hood, then someone didn't want to use it anymore, since Klan hoods don't have mouth holes.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #15)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 10:46 AM

17. As an attorney...

As an attorney who has to evaluate whether your clients and other litigants are telling you the truth what do you make of the fact he said one of the men in the yearbook photo was him on Friday and then said it wasn't him on Saturday?

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #17)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 11:08 AM

31. Not much really

 

You can make a liar out of anyone, because of fairly common habits of mind that people have - particularly doctors and engineers. Doctors and engineers are ripe for this, because they are used to making inferences based on facts all of the time, and relying on those inferences.

He may have initially assumed it was him for the obvious reason that it is in a section with his name and other pictures around it, even if he had no specific recollection of the photograph being taken, because people tend to make reasonable inferences and weave them into their "memories" - which are no more reliable than anything else that goes on in people's minds. Memory is much more malleable than most people tend to believe it is.

Having no specific recollection of the event, and then later finding out that other pictures in the book are mis-assigned and mislabeled, then the basis for the initial inference may no longer be reasonable.

People say contradictory things all of the time without "lying" - intentionally making a false statement. That's one of the reasons why, when a client is going to be deposed, it is extremely important to get them to understand the difference between something they can specifically recall, and something they would infer. For example, if the witness usually parks his car in his garage at night, and the witness is asked "Did you park your car in your garage on Wednesday of last week?", then most people who usually park their car in their garage will say "yes" even if they have no specific recollection of parking their car in their garage last Wednesday night. Later, when reminded that their kid's band was rehearsing in the garage that evening, they'll change the story to not having parked the car in the garage - which still might be an inference.

But, seriously, most people are really shitty with facts - much more than they believe. That's pretty consistent, and has nothing to do with "lying".

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #31)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 11:11 AM

32. TY

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #31)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 02:37 PM

64. The problem for Northam is that he thought it was him at first.

The inference that can be drawn from his apology is that he had dressed up in this manner on some occasions. He's just not sure if he did this time or not. And, in fact, he immediately supports that inference by mentioning the Michael Jackson masquerade in 1984.

It sounds defensive and it's never good for politicians to sound defensive.

The photo is on his yearbook page. That looks very bad. His apology followed by non-apology made it worse. Big mess, poor leadership, ineffective politics.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #64)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 03:42 PM

82. I never did any of this in the 50's, 60's 70's, 80's or to date.

I would have fracken remembered if I had.

I remember what I dressed up as on halloween.

Never even entered my mind to do this.

25 yr. old. "It's me. It's not me. It's me, but I dint do it."

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Response to sprinkleeninow (Reply #82)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 04:48 PM

90. Exactly. I'm about the same age as Northam.

I did some very stupid things in my 20s but I didn't accidentally dress up to mock black people. And if a photo suggesting that I did was on my yearbook page I sure as hell would have noticed.

His excuses aren't believable. And that's a huge problem, as it calls into question his integrity and credibility, not just 35 years ago but right now.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 10:45 AM

16. Oh yeah... You can get them from Hobby Lobby. Why do you think the Supreme Court favored them?

 

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 10:50 AM

18. Apparently you can buy custom jobs for anywhere from 100 to 150 bucks depending on mats.

That said, patterns are freely available online and it's not exactly like the costume is a hard one to make. Hell, this happened just earlier last year in San Francisco.


Student wears Ku Klux Klan costume to school for history project

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/ku-klux-klan-kkk-costume-los-angeles-harbor-teacher-preparation-academy-a8401511.html

I found a site selling them bulk in stacks of 20 for around a hundred bucks a robe. The internet is a strange and fickle place, where everything can be bought and sold if you know where to look. (Tangentially, if you have an interest, I know where you can buy a mail-order pallet of 500 skinks for a buck a head.)

ON EDIT: I know the Internet wasn't really a huge thing in 1984, but you can most certainly buy anything you can think of in 2019.

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Response to Decoy of Fenris (Reply #18)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 10:58 AM

26. I'm glad the most I ever did for Halloween was put on a cowboy hat.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #26)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 10:59 AM

28. I never did Halloween myself. Can't understand the appeal, but to each their own. n/t

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #26)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 03:52 PM

86. I liked being a drum majorette. Mom put a Quaker Oatmeal container

in my 'hat'. Looked authentic. Baton, white tassled boots, the whole nine yards. She put blush circles on my cheeks. The directions with the costume must've said to?

Also went as a cowgirl/boy with entire gear. Sometimes a skirt, sometimes chaps.

Now I don't do halloween anything.


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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 10:50 AM

21. Why, he sewed it himself! :

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 10:50 AM

22. It's too pointy, skinny, and long, and has no badges

It's clearly not a real KKK uniform.

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Response to Polybius (Reply #22)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 10:59 AM

27. We can agree


We can agree that when you're a governor and the question is "How did the man on your yearbook page get his Klan outfit?" you're in a bit of a pickle?

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #27)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 11:19 PM

103. Absolutely

But it's still clearly not a Klan outfit. I forgot to list that it has an opening for a mouth, which real Klan uniforms don't have, in addition to the mask being too pointy, skinny, and long, and the uniform having no symbols. Here's a real KKK uniform:

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 11:07 AM

30. there are plenty of women, and a few men, who could stitch that up overnight

my mom could whip up an angel costume for the christmas pagent very quickly. this isn't very different.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 11:45 AM

41. It looks like a choir robe, ripped off from a church.

Or maybe a graduation robe, which is pretty much the same thing. Anyway, the robe itself isn't something that would have to be sewn up from scratch.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #41)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 11:56 AM

45. Baptismal robe

 


Baptist churches have a supply of white robes in a range of sizes.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #45)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 02:39 PM

65. Probably the original source of the actual klan robes.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #65)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 05:53 PM

94. That could very well be

especially considering the Klan was and is explicitly a Christian organization.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #65)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 06:14 PM

96. Capirotes

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capirote

A capirote is a pointed hat of conical form that is used in Spain. It is part of the uniform of some brotherhoods including the Nazarenos and Fariseos during Easter observances and reenactments in some areas during Holy Week in Spain.


-----

In Spain, they have to point out to tourists that they are not KKK outfits:

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #96)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 06:51 PM

98. I wonder how that got to the American South in the late 1900s.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #98)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 06:59 PM

99. Birth of a Nation

 

https://newrepublic.com/article/127242/klan-got-hood


In 1915, director D. W. Griffith adapted The Clansman as The Birth of a Nation, one of the very first feature-length films and the first to screen in the White House. Its most famous scene, the ride of the Klan, required 25,000 yards of white muslin to realize the Keller/Dixon costume ideas. Among the variety of Klansman costumes in the film, there appeared a new one: the one-piece, full-face-masking, pointed white hood with eyeholes, which would come to represent the modern Klan. Maybe it was Griffith who brought those pieces of fabric together in their soon-to-be iconic form; after all, his mother had sewn costumes for his Klansman father. Or, given the heterogeneity of Reconstruction Klan costumes, maybe Griffith got the idea from another source altogether: Freemason regalia. Or maybe it wasn’t Griffith’s idea at all, but that of Paris-trained, Costume Designer Guild’s Hall-of-Famer Clare West, who worked on the film: maybe she had witnessed confraternal processions in the streets of Europe, or just made it up.

What we do know is that the blockbuster popularity of The Birth of a Nation gave free advertising to a traveling fraternal order organizer, former Methodist minister, and garter salesman, William J. Simmons. Simmons didn’t just organize fraternities; he’d joined fifteen of them, including the Knights Templar and the Masons. The 1915 lynching of Leo Frank had inspired Simmons to form a new anti-Semitic, nativist fraternity. One week before The Birth of a Nation’s Atlanta premiere, Simmons received his state charter for “The Invisible Empire, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Incorporated.” He sold hoods and robes ($6.50) sewn in a local shop, wrote a handbook—the Kloran—and, in 1920, hired publicists Edward Y. Clarke and Elizabeth Tyler to launch a massive campaign that attracted 100,000 new members in 16 months. Kleagles, or recruiters, arranged minstrel shows and screenings of The Birth of a Nation and other pro-Klan films.

In 1921, the Klan opened the Gates City Manufacturing Company in Atlanta to mass- produce regalia imitating The Birth of a Nation’s designs. The sumptuous, full-color, mail-order Catalog of Official Robes and Banners advertised all the standardized, factory-made hoods for the new hierarchy: Klansman (white cotton denim hood, red tassel); Terror (same hood, along with a red waist cord); Special Terror (white satin hood, three red silk tassels). Also for sale were ceremonial banners: The catalog’s banner samples all represent Red Bank, in the “Realm of New Jersey” (New Jersey had 60,000 members at the peak of Klan membership, more than Louisiana, Alabama, or the original Klan’s home state of Tennessee).

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 11:55 AM

44. I am not sure

Where y'all were in the 80's, I was in Florida and Alabama and I have no hard time at all believing that both costumes were rented as a pair from a costume store.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 12:41 PM

48. Who says it is a man and not a date?

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Response to Sneederbunk (Reply #48)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 12:55 PM

51. It could be a man and his male date made up in black face and dressed as a Klansman.

One of the persons in the photo could be a woman but Occam's Razor suggests its two men, their relationship to one another has not been determined. One would presume they are acquaintances or do you believe a person made up in blackface just randomly ran into a person with a Klan outfit?

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 12:53 PM

50. The Klan exists in the South. I saw them out on street corners in Georgia, 1985. Nt

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Response to lostnfound (Reply #50)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 12:58 PM

52. Lived in Fl from 70-012. Never saw one except on tv.

Traveled the south at least five times during that time period in a car and never saw a Klansman. As a Jew I guess I was lucky but on the other hand I don't have the horns they would be looking for.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #52)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 01:23 PM

54. I never saw them in Florida, either. But turned a corner in Georgia...

And my friend and I were horrified to see them standing around in their robes on a street corner, holding signs. There was a black woman with her kids in the backseat of a car at that same intersection. I remember this clearly as my friend wrote a song about it.

It was nauseating. Saw them in North Georgia.

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Response to lostnfound (Reply #54)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 01:30 PM

56. I was pretty politically aware for a kid.

I was in junior high when Volusia County schools were finally desegregated pursuant to a court officer. I remember one of my African American teachers telling me how white parents didn't want a black man teaching their kids. I also remember my teachers, for the most part, being pro integration, and anti war and anti-Nixon.

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Response to lostnfound (Reply #54)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 01:50 PM

59. They're not just in the south.

You’re very much mistaken if you think that.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #52)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 02:43 PM

67. You have no idea whether you saw a Klansman.

It's not like they go around in costume all the time. They usually wear civvies, like everyone else.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #67)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 02:46 PM

69. What

What part of the assertion embodied in my statement is that I never saw a Klansman in Klan regalia don't you understand?

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Response to lostnfound (Reply #50)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 02:40 PM

66. They never went away. Out in public then, out in public now.

That said, the photo doesn't look like a real klan costume. The ones I've seen in museums don't have mouth holes and the cones are different.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 01:11 PM

53. I saw the KKK bookstore in Pasadena Texas in 1979

In 1979, I was with a group of ex-college debaters who went to judge a high school debate tournament. We got lost and I nearly had a wreck when one of the debaters grabbed the wheel of my car and pointed at the KKK bookstore in Pasadena. We were all extreme liberals and declined. That bookstore was open unti 1990s. https://www.houstonchronicle.com/local/gray-matters/article/Photographing-the-Klan-in-the-1980s-6395815.php
n several tense situations — in Channel View, Hico and College Station — I feared for my life. In Pasadena, a woman raised a gun at me for taking pictures in a KKK bookstore. And then there were some even more frightening incidents that happened as I discovered the serious nature of the espionage that goes on between various radical groups and authorities. For more than twenty years, I declined to have the telephone directory list my address.

But the situations weren't always tense. In Pasadena and Clear Lake, I talked with Klan members about their daily co-existence with African-American and Vietnamese people. I found interesting parallels in what they were telling me about their economic conditions and the concerns I heard and witnessed in Houston's Third and Fourth Wards, primarily African-American communities where relentless fear-mongering and alarm over the "Asian invasion" had proliferated on local talk radio. At times, it seemed that many Klan members were as marginalized and afraid as those inner-city populations.

See also https://www.nytimes.com/1983/04/03/us/6-protesters-arrested-at-houston-klan-march.html
I avoid Montgomery County Texas and Vidor Texas in that there are still active KKK chapters in those places.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 01:23 PM

55. What is this dark magic of costumery

You say...


Not a 'real' Klan outfit...

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 02:43 PM

68. Good question. It sure doesn't look homemade. At least not made in the home of someone who doesn't

have a lot of experience making Klan attire.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 03:43 PM

83. Virginia, mid 80s?

 

He purchased it.

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Response to Mr. Quackers (Reply #83)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 05:58 PM

95. I doubt it.

A purchased costume would look more authentic. I think they used a white church robe or graduation robe or something like that, and rigged up the hat with a pillowcase.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 04:56 PM

91. How did the actual Klansmen get their outfits through the ages?

I'd guess they were made at home, by hand.

I don't think there was a store named "Klan Outfitters".

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Response to JustABozoOnThisBus (Reply #91)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 06:16 PM

97. Klanazon Dot Com....

 

Last edited Mon Feb 4, 2019, 07:00 PM - Edit history (1)



But, yes, it was exactly "Klan Outfitters".....

https://newrepublic.com/article/127242/klan-got-hood



In 1921, the Klan opened the Gates City Manufacturing Company in Atlanta to mass- produce regalia imitating The Birth of a Nation’s designs. The sumptuous, full-color, mail-order Catalog of Official Robes and Banners advertised all the standardized, factory-made hoods for the new hierarchy: Klansman (white cotton denim hood, red tassel); Terror (same hood, along with a red waist cord); Special Terror (white satin hood, three red silk tassels). Also for sale were ceremonial banners: The catalog’s banner samples all represent Red Bank, in the “Realm of New Jersey” (New Jersey had 60,000 members at the peak of Klan membership, more than Louisiana, Alabama, or the original Klan’s home state of Tennessee).

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #97)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 08:31 PM

100. You are very very invested in this. Why?

Asking for a friend.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #100)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 08:54 PM

102. History matters. Knowledge matters. Facts matter

 

There are aspects of the history of this country and its culture which do not appear to be taught in schools and about which there is a demonstrated ignorance among people who should know better.

Maybe you would prefer that people not understand the history of the KKK, what shaped its origins, and the continued legacy which it has.

Maybe you, like many, would like to think it is a bunch of goofballs in sheets instead of an organized pyramid scheme to sell memberships and which, incidentally, is easily the oldest terrorist organization in this country.

For someone to toss out an ignorant comment like "I don't think there was a store named "Klan Outfitters"" is, IMHO, an opportunity to point out that facts are preferable to ignorance. Yes, they were that highly organized that they ran a mail order catalog - literally "Klan Outfitters". IMHO, facts are preferable to completely uninformed idle speculation.

There are people who would prefer to believe that this was some sort of fringey group of idiots in bedsheets instead of the large, influential, and highly organized commercial operation which it was.

And there are obviously people who bristle at the idea that anyone would be interested in responding to ignorance with actual facts about a history which should not be swept under the carpet.

If you have any other concerns about me personally, feel free to follow up about.

Someone asked a question. I answered it. Do you have something to contribute to the topic? Or do you just prefer ignorance.

Alternatively, please send me by DM the Hekate-approved list of things I can post about, how often, and in how much detail.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Original post)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 08:36 PM

101. Are you ready for it?

He bought them at a ... wait for it ... "white sale"!

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