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Sun Jan 13, 2019, 06:38 AM

Ocasio-Cortez's climate genius stroke: Her Green New Deal is the most serious response to the crisis

climate change, the issue of our time, where her Green New Deal plan has provided a badly needed new opening. Early this week, a research group published new data on U.S. carbon emissions, showing they’d risen sharply over the past year.

Even scarier: We’re basically producing the same amount of carbon as we did in 1990, when we first learned of the climate crisis.
....


The call to get off fossil fuel by the 2030s is hard but technically achievable; the guarantee of a job in the renewable industry to anyone who wants one would actually provide the labor required to make a transition of this magnitude.

Backers plan two years of hearings to shape the final package — but if we follow their lead, get ready to follow European nations away from gas-powered cars, and prepare for public transit to get a serious shot in the arm.


https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/ny-oped-ocasio-cortezs-climate-genius-stroke-20190110-story.html?fbclid=IwAR3AV3gTiXD9p3XSTAqKSdx3ncFFeY96Uc08G73Chc-hV1aWAsDDH3TV24k

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Reply Ocasio-Cortez's climate genius stroke: Her Green New Deal is the most serious response to the crisis (Original post)
ashling Jan 13 OP
femmedem Jan 13 #1
Hortensis Jan 13 #40
Eliot Rosewater Jan 14 #77
brush Jan 14 #88
DeminPennswoods Jan 13 #2
EffieBlack Jan 13 #54
bdamomma Jan 13 #55
sheshe2 Jan 14 #83
InAbLuEsTaTe Jan 13 #3
NurseJackie Jan 13 #4
Palisade Jan 13 #5
George II Jan 13 #8
N_E_1 for Tennis Jan 13 #9
George II Jan 13 #11
N_E_1 for Tennis Jan 13 #12
George II Jan 13 #14
N_E_1 for Tennis Jan 13 #15
George II Jan 13 #18
Demsrule86 Jan 13 #31
hatrack Jan 13 #41
Demsrule86 Jan 13 #48
hatrack Jan 13 #51
The_jackalope Jan 14 #86
brush Jan 14 #89
Demsrule86 Jan 14 #63
tonedevil Jan 13 #53
Demsrule86 Jan 14 #65
JCanete Jan 14 #62
Demsrule86 Jan 14 #64
InAbLuEsTaTe Jan 14 #87
Power 2 the People Jan 13 #39
shanny Jan 14 #76
scarytomcat Jan 13 #6
Demsrule86 Jan 13 #16
scarytomcat Jan 13 #19
InAbLuEsTaTe Jan 13 #21
Demsrule86 Jan 13 #34
scarytomcat Jan 13 #44
Demsrule86 Jan 13 #46
scarytomcat Jan 13 #56
Demsrule86 Jan 14 #61
Demsrule86 Jan 14 #66
Alea Jan 14 #69
Demsrule86 Jan 15 #92
progressoid Jan 14 #58
shanny Jan 14 #79
hunter Jan 13 #57
Amishman Jan 14 #70
tonedevil Jan 14 #71
hunter Jan 14 #73
Duppers Jan 13 #26
George II Jan 13 #7
Apollyonus Jan 13 #43
lark Jan 13 #10
Demsrule86 Jan 13 #17
SMC22307 Jan 13 #20
MichMan Jan 13 #23
SMC22307 Jan 13 #25
MichMan Jan 13 #32
SMC22307 Jan 13 #45
EffieBlack Jan 13 #29
MichMan Jan 13 #35
Demsrule86 Jan 13 #28
SMC22307 Jan 13 #49
lark Jan 13 #24
Demsrule86 Jan 13 #27
lark Jan 13 #37
Demsrule86 Jan 13 #50
EX500rider Jan 14 #80
Demsrule86 Jan 15 #90
shanny Jan 14 #82
Demsrule86 Jan 15 #91
Autumn Jan 13 #13
MichMan Jan 13 #22
Demsrule86 Jan 13 #30
MichMan Jan 13 #36
David__77 Jan 13 #38
David__77 Jan 13 #33
Apollyonus Jan 13 #42
SMC22307 Jan 13 #47
Apollyonus Jan 13 #52
Raine Jan 14 #59
loyalsister Jan 14 #68
betsuni Jan 14 #60
fescuerescue Jan 14 #67
Hekate Jan 14 #72
Blue_Tires Jan 14 #74
Eliot Rosewater Jan 14 #81
Blue_Tires Jan 14 #84
joshcryer Jan 14 #85
Joe941 Jan 14 #75
zipplewrath Jan 14 #78

Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 07:06 AM

1. Great article by Bill McKibben; thanks for posting. nt

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Response to femmedem (Reply #1)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 01:53 PM

40. Check out Obama's and the UN's Green New Deal.

Of course, Republican senate and house wouldn't fund Obama's program. But that's THEM, and it's the fault of people who didn't vote for Democrats in government.

This strange version that includes various social programs is a no-go as is, as it was obviously meant to be. Given its origin from a hostile, anti-Democratic Party group who believe the ENTIRE Democratic Party needs to be taken over and replaced, I believe it's really just a platform for their agenda.

Btw, even though Ocasio didn't run on any climate issues, others did. We have some good people who bring genuine climate control and fresh water expertise and commitment to the table.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #40)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 04:32 PM

77. Indeed we do.

I appreciate your intelligent response, it will fall on some deaf ears though.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #40)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 05:31 PM

88. Agreed. Some are going on like green energy proposals had never been thought of...

before they sprung from the mind of this new genius. Give us a break.

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 07:21 AM

2. We need only look back to WWII

when America re-used and recycled everything. No reason we can't do it again.

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Response to DeminPennswoods (Reply #2)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 06:36 PM

54. "Being Green"

Being Green
(Author Unknown)
https://m.facebook.com/visualwisdom/photos/a.10150997871217876.416090.286484007875/10154386317842876/?type=3

Checking out at the store, the young cashier suggested to the older woman, that she should bring her own grocery bags because plastic bags weren't good for the environment.

The woman apologized and explained, "We didn't have this green thing back in my earlier days."

The young clerk responded, "That's our problem today. Your generation did not care enough to save our environment for future generations."

She was right -- our generation didn't have the green thing in its day.

Back then, we returned milk bottles, soda bottles and beer bottles to the store. The store sent them back to the plant to be washed and sterilized and refilled, so it could use the same bottles over and over. So they really were truly recycled.

But we didn't have the green thing back in our day.

Grocery stores bagged our groceries in brown paper bags, that we reused for numerous things, most memorable besides household garbage bags, was the use of brown paper bags as book covers for our schoolbooks. This was to ensure that public property, (the books provided for our use by the school) was not defaced by our scribblings. Then we were able to personalize our books on the brown paper bags.

But too bad we didn't do the green thing back then.

We walked up stairs, because we didn't have an escalator in every store and office building. We walked to the grocery store and didn't climb into a 300-horsepower machine every time we had to go two blocks.

But she was right. We didn't have the green thing in our day.

Back then, we washed the baby's diapers because we didn't have the throwaway kind. We dried clothes on a line, not in an energy-gobbling machine burning up 220 volts -- wind and solar power really did dry our clothes back in our early days. Kids got hand-me-down clothes from their brothers or sisters, not always brand-new clothing.

But that young lady is right; we didn't have the green thing back in our day.

Back then, we had one TV, or radio, in the house -- not a TV in every room. And the TV had a small screen the size of a handkerchief (remember them?), not a screen the size of the state of Montana. In the kitchen, we blended and stirred by hand because we didn't have electric machines to do everything for us. When we packaged a fragile item to send in the mail, we used wadded up old newspapers to cushion it, not Styrofoam or plastic bubble wrap. Back then, we didn't fire up an engine and burn gasoline just to cut the lawn. We used a push mower that ran on human power. We exercised by working so we didn't need to go to a health club to run on treadmills that operate on electricity.

But she's right; we didn't have the green thing back then.

We drank from a fountain when we were thirsty instead of using a cup or a plastic bottle every time we had a drink of water. We refilled writing pens with ink instead of buying a new pen, and we replaced the razor blades in a razor instead of throwing away the whole razor just because the blade got dull.

But we didn't have the green thing back then.

Back then, people took the streetcar or a bus and kids rode their bikes to school or walked instead of turning their moms into a 24-hour taxi service. We had one electrical outlet in a room, not an entire bank of sockets to power a dozen appliances. And we didn't need a computerized gadget to receive a signal beamed from satellites 23,000 miles out in space in order to find the nearest burger joint.
But isn't it sad the current generation laments how wasteful we old folks were just because we didn't have the green thing back then?

Please forward this on to another selfish old person who needs a lesson in conservation from a smartass young person.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #54)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 06:49 PM

55. I love what you said

but then again not to sound coy, but that's progress. But we were much happier then too huh. People talked to each other instead of people looking at a cell phone. Now they are saying social media is the reason why kids are so depressed. Sad huh?

Technology has its good points and bad.

But our climate issue needs our full attention now, among other things.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #54)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 04:51 PM

83. + infinity!

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 08:55 AM

3. AOC's push for GND is exactly what the USA needs...any 2020 candidate who doesnt support it is DOA!!

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Response to InAbLuEsTaTe (Reply #3)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 09:17 AM

4. Wishful thinking.

any 2020 candidate who doesnt support it is DOA!!
Wishful thinking.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #4)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 09:18 AM

5. Are you opposed to a GND? nt

 

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Response to Palisade (Reply #5)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 09:26 AM

8. I don't think anyone here really knows what the "GND" (?) really is. I can't seem to find....

.....any plan or specifics.

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Response to N_E_1 for Tennis (Reply #9)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 09:48 AM

11. That's not a plan, that's a wish list with few or no specifics on how to accomplish them.

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Response to George II (Reply #11)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 09:52 AM

12. Every plan starts with an outline...nt

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Response to N_E_1 for Tennis (Reply #12)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 09:59 AM

14. I realize that, I wrote engineering and marketing plans for about 40 years.

Going back to the OP, an outline isn't "the most serious response" to climate change.

As the oft-abused saying goes, "where's the meat on the bones?"

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Response to George II (Reply #14)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 10:05 AM

15. I do agree with you there...nt

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Response to N_E_1 for Tennis (Reply #15)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 10:16 AM

18. Thanks.

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Response to Palisade (Reply #5)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 11:42 AM

31. I am opposed to attempting this now and disrupting our economy...absolutely opposed.

You have to consider the political reality.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #31)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 02:05 PM

41. Yeah, let's wait 20 or 30 years - we'll be FINE . . .

Wait! We could study it for a really, really long time so that we know there's actually a problem.

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Response to hatrack (Reply #41)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 03:28 PM

48. Let's win the presidency and the Senate and start but not by destroying the economy which

is unacceptable for many Americans. This will take time. France is further ahead than we are and look at the riots when the gas taxes were raised. We can use tax rebates to encourage clean energy and work toward providing manufacturing infrastructure. But the idea of inflicting pain on Americans and saying this is how it will be won't work.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #48)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 05:02 PM

51. This IS how it's going to be, whether we like it or not

Things are going to spin rapidly out of control no matter what we do from this point forward.

Think: crop failures, fishery collapses, record-smashing droughts, floods, heatwaves, and forest fires that will make Paradise CA 2018 look like a junior high musical compared to the Royal Shakespeare Company.

There's going to be more than enough pain to go around. As inflicted by natural systems out of balance, it may be instructive but won't actually do much of anything to help. The pain of shared sacrifice - higher taxes, higher fuel prices - may help us buy some time and reconfigure some vital systems.

We face two unpalatable alternatives. One is a world in which economic growth as we've known it does not continue, with all that that implies. The other is a world in which civilization as we've known it becomes impossible to maintain. Both are grim and unpleasant prospects, only one of which is survivable.

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Response to hatrack (Reply #51)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 04:58 PM

86. +1000

True that, as we both know. Not choosing is the choice we'll make, and that ends with a lot of whimpering.

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Response to hatrack (Reply #51)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 05:39 PM

89. You do know none of this is possible until we get control of the WH and Senate...

as the repugs' clients, the corporate polluters, will not allow the large scale green initiatives to go through.

First priorities to get to green energy overhaul lies in gaining the political power to do it.

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Response to hatrack (Reply #41)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 11:22 AM

63. We begin and work towards our goals with as little disruption as possible or it could be 20 or30

year before we get a chance.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #31)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 06:15 PM

53. While it is possible to have...

an environment without an economy it is impossible to have an economy without an environment.

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Response to tonedevil (Reply #53)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 11:35 AM

65. And we could end up with neither if we are not careful.

You have to deal with political reality...the first wave of job losses pinned on climate change measures will be the end of our majorities. We need to proceed carefully...we only get one shot and if we fail...it will be years before we get a second chance.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #31)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 11:16 AM

62. Seriously there is no tomorrow on this issue. Nor do we change people's minds and get them to

 


realize the urgency so that we can actually do something by running away from it. Most people, if you haven't paid attention to polling, agree. Global Warming is real and needs to be tackled. Why would we not run unapologetically on this? It isn't the year 2000.

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Response to JCanete (Reply #62)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 11:32 AM

64. People support taking on climate change...but it is not strong support...if we cause massive

disruption in their lives, they will back away. I don't want to blow this chance. We should not run on it this year unapologetically on climate change because it gives the GOP a way to scare folks into voting for them by twisting everything-high taxes, high energy costs, loss of jobs etc. This is not the ISSUE...fixing the ACA and improving it is the 2020 issue. And depending on how the economy is in 2020 that may be an issue as well. Also Trump is a rat and a liar...so there is that.

Consider how we took the house...we won in red and purple states. We won Newt Gingrich's old seat...there is no progressive mandate, but if we win in 20. we can begin one...when we are in office, the country tends to pull to the left. So you ask what happened in16? Populism is the answer; we have to recognize that something must be done about the human casualties of globalism. Trump won by making promise to do that...he lied but the next GOP liar could win the same way. One of the components of a green agenda should be redoing trade agreements to enforce climate standards and of course stop the obscene wages disparity between us and say Malaysia. Also we need to invest in our manufacturing so we make green products...thus keeping the support of American workers.

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Response to JCanete (Reply #62)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 05:26 PM

87. You said it... it's now or NEVER!! New Green Deal or NO DEAL!!

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Response to InAbLuEsTaTe (Reply #3)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 01:47 PM

39. +1

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Response to InAbLuEsTaTe (Reply #3)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 04:31 PM

76. + a brazillion

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 09:21 AM

6. even 2030 is too late in my opinion

we need to make some big moves today like
ending subsidies for oil and gas production
move fast to solar electric to power the grid
support solar homes and cars with big subsidies

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Response to scarytomcat (Reply #6)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 10:13 AM

16. Do you have any idea what that would do to the economy? If you screw up green deal plans by

destroying the economy, it will set back the effort decades we don't have.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #16)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 10:23 AM

19. screw up the economy?

a green deal will stimulate the economy
subsidize green not fossil
I don't understand your post, I think we need to move fast. Two years of discussion is too long.
We need to move now but rethugs are holding us back by denying climate change.

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Response to scarytomcat (Reply #19)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 10:50 AM

21. You said it!! We need GND now... glad to see AOC all over this leading the charge!!

AOC is truly one of those we've been waiting for!!

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Response to scarytomcat (Reply #19)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 11:44 AM

34. How will it stimulate the economy...most of the green stuff needed is made in China.

It will have to be done gradually and people must be given a choice or it won't work.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #34)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 03:08 PM

44. We could manufacture and install

we could convert coal and natural gas power plants to solar and wind
we could build electric cars and trains
we just need the willpower to turn our tax system to support it all
and tax incentives to support our needs
we don't have time for gradual the arctic is melting the ocean will rise

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Response to scarytomcat (Reply #44)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 03:24 PM

46. Do you understand how difficult what you say would be and what it would cost? We are not

manufacturing much here and don't have the infrastructure. People want clean water and such...they are becoming more interested in climate change, but you raise taxes, increase fuel bills even in the short term and disrupt their lives, it would destroy any chance to make changes and work towards dealing with climate change albeit more slowly. The GOP would win hands down in whatever election came after such an attempt.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #46)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 07:10 PM

56. it is do or die

We need to raise taxes on the rich
I'm sure we can find ways around working class problems by giving them better jobs at higher pay
we have been sitting on our hands for 40 years it is about time we moved
we can solve any so called problem you can think of, we have to and soon
when the arctic is ice free it is all over

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Response to scarytomcat (Reply #56)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 11:08 AM

61. We only have one shot...if we rush in willy nilly without a plan...tell people to tighten their

belts, we lose the next election and then nothing gets done. This will take time and planning. While people are now concerned about global change, if jobs or income are affected that will change and we lose.

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Response to scarytomcat (Reply #56)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 11:36 AM

66. The majority of Americans do not agree with this...urgency-certainly not enough to take massive

amounts of economic pain, and they vote. So regardless of what we think, and I believe it to be urgent, we have to proceed carefully...and this is not the issue to run on. The GOP will beat us up on this...scare people to death.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #66)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 12:49 PM

69. Your writings in this thread are some of the wisest I've ever seen on this site

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Response to Alea (Reply #69)

Tue Jan 15, 2019, 01:10 PM

92. Thank you. You are very kind. (Blushing)

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #46)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 02:09 AM

58. OFFS.

Am I reading a Democratic website or not?

https://www.ef.org/story/businesses-share-the-success-of-minnesotas-clean-energy-economy/ The clean energy economy is good for Minnesota, providing more than 59,000 jobs across the state in 2018. A growing number of businesses want decision-makers and the public to understand the benefits the clean energy industry provides—and push them to accelerate market growth by supporting smart energy policies.


Renewable Energy Has More Economic Benefits Than You Know https://cleantechnica.com/2018/03/10/renewable-energy-economic-benefits-know/




ETC.

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Response to progressoid (Reply #58)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 04:34 PM

79. it is hard to tell sometimes

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #16)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 07:48 PM

57. We don't have to destroy the economy or implement regressive taxes.

What we have to do is build communities where the average person can't think of any good reasons to buy a car or mini-mansion in the distant suburbs, eat factory farm meat and dairy products, buy lots of stuff that ultimately won't make them happy, or have more than one or two children.

Maybe we ought to be paying people to experiment with lifestyles that have a very small environmental footprint so we might follow the lead of those who are successfully happy.

When my wife and I met we were Los Angeles commuters each spending at least an hour on stop-and-go traffic freeways every working day. By some planning and greater good fortune we've been able to avoid that lifestyle since the later 'eighties.

Alas we haven't been able to abandon our cars entirely yet, but neither have we ever felt any need to buy new cars. My car cost less than a thousand dollars, sips gas, and I fill the ten gallon gas tank every few months whether I need to or not.

Everyone should be fortunate enough to live in a situation where the price of gasoline simply doesn't matter.



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Response to hunter (Reply #57)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 01:04 PM

70. No way, not going to be crammed into some urban arcology

I hate people and crowds, so the idea of everything in walking distance sounds like hell. I'm quite happy to have a 5 minute walk down to my mailbox.

Electric vehicles with 100% non fossil fuel power generation. Carbon tax is fine, but make sure carbon footprint calculations account for carbon capture by forests and/or agriculture for rural areas. One acre of oak forest captures about 15 tons of carbon per year. Average American has a carbon footprint of 20 tons per year. Even assuming my family is double the average emissions, our homestead / lifestyle net carbon footprint is definitely negative.

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Response to Amishman (Reply #70)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 01:34 PM

71. I think that is cool...

and am actually envious of you, but given the current human population it isn't a very viable solution for all or even most of us.

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Response to Amishman (Reply #70)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 04:04 PM

73. My wife and I live in a high density suburb.

There's public transportation, natural gas fueled buses, but it's spotty on the half hour, nine-to-five weekdays, or worse. It's easy to lose track of time and get stranded, and transfers can become quite convoluted.

We're within easy walking distance of schools, which was nice when are our children were school age. They've grown up, graduated from college, and moved to huge cities.

From our home I can hear the kids playing at our elementary school and football games at the high school. We can see my wife's work, and in the opposite direction, the elementary school our kids attended, from our upstairs balcony. We can feel the low rumble of the big Caterpillar emergency generators at my wife's work when they test them once a month.

I work at home.

Our neighborhood ranges from three story apartment blocks with generous balconies (great for potted plants and gardens), maybe half of which are government subsidized or mandated affordable housing in various ways, on up to big five bedroom houses with ten foot backyards and five foot side yards. There's quite a few multi-generational families living in the big houses especially, but even in the smaller apartments.

Our own house has an anomalously large backyard for the neighborhood because of the odd shape of the lot. There's a public park / open space on one side, including a well traveled foot path to the high school, which is why I'm always painting over graffiti on the wall, but that doesn't bother me too much. My past experience as a secondary school teacher is put to good use when I happen to catch a kid holding a spray can, if they don't run away first... some of 'em are fast!



My wife and her sister discovered this house, and my wife had pretty much made the down payment when she called me about it, all because of the big back yard.

The majority of our neighbors are not white. I grew up in a place that was affluent and 99% white and I didn't care for it. Neither did my parents or my siblings. We all moved away as soon as we could. My parents were there for the work. As artists with a mess of kids in the Catholic tradition they went where the work was.

My wife's dad was born in a tent near a small farm my parents used to own. His parents were Mexican farm workers.

40% of our neighbors don't speak English as their primary language at home, but most of the children do. My wife is bilingual, I'm not.

Solar development here these last few years has been insane. About a a quarter of our neighbors have solar panels on their roofs, the schools have solar panels, and one nearby supermarket has solar panels over its parking lot.

Nevertheless, I don't believe solar and wind energy are going to "save us" because they depend on natural gas to fill in the gaps when the wind is not blowing or the sun is not shining brightly overhead, which is most of the time. These solar and wind developments represent a serious and deadly commitment to natural gas in the foreseeable future.

Natural gas, especially fracked natural gas, is hardly any better than coal, and will destroy what's left of our earth's natural environment same as coal would. The largest industrial projects on the planet today, and many deadly political conflicts, involve the extraction and distribution of natural gas. There's nothing "natural" about natural gas.

Nuclear power is probably the only sustainable way to support the high energy industrial economy many affluent people now enjoy. An exclusively solar-wind-and-other "alternative" energy powered society would look nothing like the society many of us now enjoy.

The Mother Earth News lifestyle would be an environmental catastrophe if billions of people suddenly decided that was the most desirable way to live.

If Chernobyl or Fukushima taught us anything, it's that human beings, especially rural and semi-rural human beings, are worse for the natural environment than nuclear waste. (As a thought experiment, I'd personally rather be a slightly radioactive wild animal running free than meat on someone's dinner table...)

The people with the smallest environmental footprints are urban vegans and vegetarians who live in small spaces sharing common walls, places that are easily heated and cooled, places connected to very sophisticated sewage treatment and garbage recycling facilities.

My parents, and my wife's parents, are avid gardeners and retired with comfortable pensions. They've both chosen rural lifestyles, driving into town once a week for church, shopping, socializing, etc.. It's not something we or any of our siblings could afford, however, not at this stage of our lives. We'd have to commute to work. (My wife's parents don't even have a good internet connection, and cell phone reception is limited, spotty, or non-existent, which drives the younger people in our family crazy. Wait, what? My phone doesn't work here, and the internet isn't fast enough for video???)

I think about these things a lot.

One of the larger aspects of our household environmental footprint is our adopted animal shelter dogs -- husky and husky plus sizes. I don't expect dogs to be vegetarian. I have a lot of contempt for people who breed popular but more difficult dogs like huskies, dogs that later end up in shelters because their owners didn't know what they were setting themselves up for. All our dogs are like that. They should never have been born, but here they are.

I pretty much feel the same about people too. Seven and a half billion of us is too many, but here we are, and what are we going to do about it?

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Response to scarytomcat (Reply #6)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 11:34 AM

26. +100

There are experts saying it's already too late.

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 09:24 AM

7. What is the plan?

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Response to George II (Reply #7)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 03:03 PM

43. I haven't seen one.

 

What is scientifically incongruent is the fact that we make electricity by burning fossil fuels. So, considering entropy and inability to get 100% yield, if everyone drove electric cars, the amount of fossil fuels burnt would increase rather than decrease.

There is just no way to get all our electricity from renewable sources. Even if we covered the entire states of AZ and NV plus the California and NM deserts with solar panels, it would produce only about 8% of the electricity needed by the nation.

Thus, I'd really like to see the "plan" -- slogans and platitudes are easy.

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 09:47 AM

10. I lived in Strasbourg France for about 4 weeks 7 years ago.

We never once rode in a car while we were there. Public transportation was so cheap and abundant. There was the train, the buses, and the trams. The trams ran all through town from 6am until midnight in 15 minute intervals and from 1 = 5 with hourly intervals. Trains ran between towns and we could get to Germany in 15 min. Almost no one owned cars, our friend said when he wanted to go to his girlfriends parents out in the country they either borrowed his mother's' car (she was the only person he knew with a car) or take the train then a taxi. Again, it was easy and inexpensive and no hassle whatsoever. it was also so much quieter without all the car noise, I really hated it when I returned, it is so loud here compared to there. I would be totally ecstatic to have reliable good inexpensive public transit options in places other than the largest cities.

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Response to lark (Reply #10)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 10:14 AM

17. I would too...but let's not forget the French are rioting because of conditions...Europe is not a

a paradise by any means...a gas tax began it all.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #17)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 10:24 AM

20. No one is suggesting Europe is a "paradise,"

just that many parts of Europe are far superior to the United States with regard to public transportation (and biking).

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #20)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 11:00 AM

23. Mostly because fuel taxes make it very costly to drive

Gas prices in Europe are in the $7-$8 range. Should we propose an additional $5 per gallon tax like they do?

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Response to MichMan (Reply #23)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 11:23 AM

25. That will hurt the little guy. I'd rather we raise the top marignal tax rates...

to WWII through Ronnie Raygun levels and funnel much of that money toward the Green New Deal. Jobs, new infrastructure, better for the environment... it's a win/win.

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #25)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 11:42 AM

32. How would that reduce the use of fossil fuels ?

So we want cheap gas prices, but expect the little guy to not use much of it by increasing taxes on the rich?

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Response to MichMan (Reply #32)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 03:23 PM

45. By providing viable alternatives.

I envision the Green New Deal as a massive public works project, much like the Civilian Conservation Corps. Unlike the ACA that wasn't 'sold' properly, we'd have to sell the hell out of this. Public opinion (of all Americans, not just the little guy) would need to shift and it won't be easy, but it can be done. Tax the wealthy, tax oil and gas company profits, curb corporate tax evasion, offer low interest rates for green investment... why would any Democrat oppose those things?

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Response to MichMan (Reply #23)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 11:40 AM

29. The federal gas tax in the US is 17 cents per gallon and hasn't gone up in 25:years

Raising it to 25 or 30 cents would substantially increase desperately needed income for the Highway Trust Fund and would not impose a hardship on most people.

It's interesting that we've watched gas prices rise drastically over the years in order to out more money in oil companies' pockets whime uttering barely a peep of protest, but suggest we add a few cents to the gas tax in order to repair crumbling bridges and roads and other infrastructure, and folks scream bloody murder.

Infrastructure costs money.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #29)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 11:46 AM

35. Increasing gas tax by 15 cents will make people buy electric?

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #20)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 11:39 AM

28. At what cost? What about the ghettos ouside of Paris?

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #28)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 03:30 PM

49. What about them? What, specifically, are you asking? (n/t)

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #17)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 11:11 AM

24. French take to the streets & riot easily, that doesn't happen here.

No, it's definitely not paradise, but it is 100% more calm and peaceful (when they aren't rioting, which is most of the time) without all the dirt and noise from cars. Their food is much better too, so much more fresh food. Every day we got fresh sandwiches for lunch from one of the grocery stores and only paid 1 euro for each. They were excellent, the tomatoes were so flavorful, the bread crisp and flakey and both they and they lettuce were so fresh and they were made daily. When you looked at the food ingredients inn the stores, they didn't have all the chemicals in them that ours do and most were locally sourced. To tell you the truth, we absolutely loved it there, but it is expensive to live there, apartments are quite costly and very small compared to what's available here. Otherwise we'd still be there. You also have to have good mobility to get around easily, they have no handicapped ramps and most buildings have no elevator and are 3-7 stories high. They build up in towns to leave the forests and wild lands intact.

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Response to lark (Reply #24)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 11:38 AM

27. Ah...but many can't afford good food right now, Muslims live in ghettos outside of Paris-many have

no jobs and live marginal lives...they have rioted fairly often. If you are the right sort I am sure it is just fine (not Muslim and White)...but for others not so much. Consider that a gas tax set off the last riots...so gas is still needed even with all the available transportation. Things are not well in France and it will be fortunate if they don't vote in a rightie like Le Pen soon.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #27)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 11:50 AM

37. I certainly hope not.

Now, if I was Muslim, I would not want to live in France, as they are marginalized and are not well integrated into society. LIke I said, it's no paradise. These riots really confuse me because few French drive?? I sincerely doubt things are worse there, we have a Russian traitor in charge and 800,000 Americans without a paycheck because of his temper tantrum and children being killing in freezing holding cages. We have more poverty than France. They get free medical care, we go bankrupt for medical care or die.

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Response to lark (Reply #37)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 03:36 PM

50. It is very likely that a NAZI Le Pen will win the next election. Macron is in big trouble and gas

taxes were increased. This began the riot. Things are not good at the moment. Macron wants to address climate change and I applaud that but the burden is being shifted to the workers and middle class. There is much unrest right now.

Macron also cut taxes for the rich and expects working class folks to carry the burden for gas cuts, benefits cuts and a higher cost of living.


https://globalnews.ca/news/4728184/france-carbon-tax-riots-canada/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/emmanuel-macron-french-budget-hero-rich-cut-taxes-wealthiest-france-left-wing-a7971606.html

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #50)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 04:39 PM

80. "These riots really confuse me because few French drive?? "

France has over 38 million cars, they are 22nd in the world in auto ownership per capita.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #80)

Tue Jan 15, 2019, 01:07 PM

90. It began with people who drive for a living...people hail cabs and such. But there has been

a decline in middle class living since the tax cuts and some cuts to the social programs. It appears to me that Macron is favoring the rich. I have no doubt he is sincere about climate change but all the onus of the gas tax would have fallen on the middle class. Also fossil fuel is still used also for heat and cooking.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #17)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 04:50 PM

82. It is simplistic if not disingenuous to say they are rioting "because of conditions."

They are rioting because the workers are being forced to pay for a problem caused by multinational corporations (in their view, and who am I to argue?).

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Response to shanny (Reply #82)

Tue Jan 15, 2019, 01:09 PM

91. It is the truth...they are being asked to assume the cost of climate change policy while the rich

enjoy massive tax cuts...can't blame them. And Macron's bad faith will lead to someone like Le Pen getting elected.

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 09:58 AM

13. Hopefully California's actions and New York's Climate and Community Protection Act

will be examined as a model for for tackling some issues. It has to start somewhere. Hopefully the person in charge of the restored House Climate Crisis committee will start speaking out soon about the GND and press for urgent action on climate change. The ability to draft legislation and subpoena companies and people to testify would have been nice.

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 10:58 AM

22. How do you force consumers to stop using fossil fuels and buy electric vehicles ?

I have yet to see a reasonable proposal on how to do that. Electric/hybrid vehicles are available from every manufacturer, but only amount to less than 2% of sales, as consumers shun them.

Gas prices around here are $2.25 per gallon, yet we expect people to go out & buy electric cars? In fact, as the usage of fossil fuels goes down, the price may likely also go down due to supply and demand thus making people even less interested in buying one.


There are several methods, but good luck getting any politician to embrace them as they likely would never be reelected. Need someone bold enough to take the risk and lead


1) Institute a $5 per gallon federal gas tax. Devastating to the economy and lot's of angry voters

2) Make annual registration fees on gas and diesel powered vehicles hundreds of dollars per year. You want a full size pickup, go ahead, but it will cost you big time. Lot's of angry voters again.

3) Increase the electric car subsidy to something like 20K. Prices of cars may likely factor this into account

4) Forbid the manufacture of gas powered vehicles and watch new car sales plunge decimating the industry.

5) Norway for instance has close to a 100% tax on new cars making a $40K vehicle cost near $90K. The tax is waived on electrics. That would likely also decimate the auto industry if something like that is implemented.

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Response to MichMan (Reply #22)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 11:41 AM

30. Any party that supported what you wrote in your post would be sent to the political

wilderness...I wonder if some on our side realize this is a Republic and forcing their will on others makes them autocratic and possibly fascist.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #30)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 11:50 AM

36. How would you propose substantially reducing fossil fuel usage ?

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Response to MichMan (Reply #22)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 11:50 AM

38. The electric grid is the issue.

If coal powered plants are generating the power for cars, there are fewer avoided emissions than if the plants were renewables or nuclear.

Avoiding the appearance of a high cost is less politically risky, and so subsidization is generally going to be an easier route than use taxes that, as a share of income, will hit poorer people more.

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 11:44 AM

33. I hope a package of policy including jobs guarantees is introduced.

No, it won’t get passed now. It’s time to articulate specific policy proposals and popularize them as demands.

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 02:57 PM

42. "Green New Deal" is not new

 

It has been around for decades and most recently proposed by President Obama.

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Response to Apollyonus (Reply #42)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 03:28 PM

47. He's no longer in office, but AOC is.

It would be nice to see them join forces, though.

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #47)

Sun Jan 13, 2019, 06:04 PM

52. She is not in "power"

 

She is a junior freshman congressperson who has a lot to learn. She has zero power unless she builds a large coalition which is unlikely because instead of building bridges with the veterans in congress, she is trying to burn them which means her initiatives will stay on twitter. Successful congressmen (and women) reach out to moderates and conservatives in the party and persuade them, get their help in drafting major legislative initiatives. Attacking them on twitter and in press may make a tiny fraction of vocal democrats feel good but is a recipe for failure.

Comparing her to Obama is a bit over the top since Obama was POTUS. Are you going to compare her to the United Nations as well since UN used the term "Green New Deal" first and there have been people working on it for a long long time.

I applaud OAC's enthusiasm but throwing grenades at other democrats is not something I'd recommend.

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 04:10 AM

59. Good for her

I want to hear the environment covered more, I'll only give my vote to those who give the environment top priority!

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Response to Raine (Reply #59)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 11:59 AM

68. Democrats in office have cared a proposed

But have not made climate change a top priority. It has not been front and center even after Al Gore sounded the alarm. I think it is related to the fact that 2030 and beyond seems too far away to consider in current planning and legislation. We need these younger folks who are thinking about what is being left to grandchildren who will (may?) be here to deal with what we have done to the planet.

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 08:04 AM

60. Euphemia.

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 11:50 AM

67. Has this been assigned a House Bill number yet?

Curious how many members of the House have signed on.

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 01:36 PM

72. Taking up the torch of Al Gore, thanks

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 04:25 PM

74. It's a start but until there's a snowball's chance

of getting though the Senate and being signed by Donnie, all it is right now is feel-good legislation.

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Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #74)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 04:46 PM

81. Putting aside all the politics, when you look at the plan itself

https://www.dataforprogress.org/green-new-deal/

it shows what an amazing TASK it is to accomplish even if you have unanimous support of doing it...we should still try, but just the overwhelming SHIT SHOW we have created for ourselves is amazing.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #81)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 04:55 PM

84. I definitely agree, go for it

It's just refreshing to hear someone in congress openly say climate change is a thing...

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Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #74)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 04:55 PM

85. This stuff's been on the wonk roadmap for decades.

At least two decades was the sustainable roadmap been worked on.

The Sustainability Performance Office coordinates with all of the energy/food/resources administrations to produce Strategic Sustainability Performance Plans.

It's actually not an economic limitation but rather a technological one. Once the technologies get more saturated, we'll get there to full sustainability.

Sustainability is just common damn sense and all high civilization societies naturally strive toward it.

The green new deal is starting to become viable but I'm not sure if it's too early yet. Al Gore has been trying to make a "green new deal" since his 2000 campaign. Every time it's failed. And really, gas prices being so low, it can be a non-starter.

Just let the wonks keep doing their thing and let the markets and the technologies develop is what I say. Don't let it become a wild eyed talking point unless you have the facts to back it up.

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 04:29 PM

75. She isn't wrong.

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 04:33 PM

78. Gonna be hard for planes

It's going to be hard to produce alot of affordable airplane fuel in a "carbon neutral" way. Those kind of batteries are a long way off.

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