HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » What Happened When A Trum...

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 10:50 AM

What Happened When A Trump Supporter Challenged Me About the Wall

Facts at your fingertips. Perhaps this will be helpful to someone.

https://medium.com/@vickyalvearshecter/what-happened-when-a-trump-supporter-challenged-me-about-the-wall-e54e86a5edd1?fbclid=IwAR2UWIlB91jedfIkaMZ34wc5fCuLgcvOiJcYnS2d_cGFhOQkNtqQ-TH_S9o

What Happened When A Trump Supporter Challenged Me About the Wall
Vicky Alvear Shecter
Dec 27
Existing barriers in California.


A conservative challenged liberal Facebook friends to “make a case, not based on emotion” against Trump’s wall. Conservative buddies flooded his post with snide remarks about how this would be impossible for “deluded libs.”

“Okay, I’ll play,” I responded. And in order to avoid being accused of bias, I explained that I would use only conservative sources to prove my point. My primary source was a policy paper by the Cato Institute, a conservative, rightwing think tank, along with other conservative voices (listed at the end of the piece). Here’s why I’m against the wall, I wrote:

1. Walls don’t work. Illegal immigrants have tunneled underneath and/or erected ramps up and down walls to simply drive over them. People find a way. When East Germany erected its wall, it created a military zone, staffed by booted, machine-gun carrying guards ready to shoot to kill. Yet thousands managed to make it to West Germany anyway. More to the point, do we really want to model ourselves after communist East Germany?

2. Most illegal immigrants are “overstayers.” They come to the US legally — for vacations, business, to study, etc. — and then STAY past their visas. By 2012, overstayers accounted for 58% (THE MAJORITY!) of all unauthorized immigrants. A wall is meaningless here!

3. Walls have little impact on drugs being brought in to the US. According to the DEA, almost all drugs come in through legal points of entry, hidden in secret containers and/or among legit goods in tractor-trailers. A wall will have little to no impact on the influx of drugs into our country.

4. It’s environmentally impractical. Walls have a hard time making it through extreme weather. For example, in 2011, a flood in Arizona washed away 40 feet of STEEL fencing. Torrential rains and raging waters do serious damage. Also, conservative sources generally do not address the environmental harm that walls create, but there is plenty of documentation available that show its potential for irreparable damage to both plant and animal life.

5. A wall would forces the U.S. government to take land from private citizens in eminent domain battles. Private citizens own much of the land slated for the wall. The costs of the government snatching private land — and the legal battles that would ensue — are incalculable.

6. Border patrol agents don’t like concrete or steel walls because they block surveillance capabilities. In other words, they can’t mobilize correctly to meet challenges. So in many ways, a wall makes their job more difficult.

7. Border patrol agents say, “Walls are meaningless without agents and technology to back them up.” Are we prepared to pour countless billions annually — after the wall is built — to create a nearly 2,000 mile, militarized 24-hour surveillance border operation? Because according to patrol agents, that’s the only way a wall would work. Again, are we really, going to use East Germany, a brutal communist state, as our model here?
Are we seriously going to model ourselves on East Germany and their wall? A 1979 celebration in E. Berlin.

8. Where walls have been built, there was “no discernable impact on the influx of unauthorized aliens.” In other words, they came in elsewhere, primarily where natural barriers such as water or mountainous regions precluded a wall.

9. An unintended consequence is that a wall blocks farmworkers from EXITING when their invaluable seasonal work is done. Farmers are against the wall because it makes getting cheap seasonal labor almost impossible as few American citizens want or can even do those jobs. And if seasonal worker do get in, a wall makes it harder for them to leave! A wall traps migrant farm laborers in our country.

10. Trump’s $5 billion is a laughable drop in the bucket for what would ACTUALLY be needed. For example, according to the Cato Institute: An estimate for a border wall area that only covered 700 miles was originally 1.2 billion. How much did it REALLY cost? SEVEN BILLION. And that’s only for 700 miles. Whatever we think it’s going to cost, experience shows us we have to multiply it by more than 500%.

11. According to MIT engineers, the wall would cost $31.2 billion. Homeland Security estimates it at $22 billion. Given the pattern of spending mentioned in number 10 (plus Murphy’s Law), that means we’re really talking about pouring endless billions into something that doesn’t even work. And, of course, we taxpayers will be footing the bill, not Mexico. Given all the drawbacks, is that REALLY the best use of our taxes?

As the conservatives of the Cato Institute put it, “President Trump’s wall would be a mammoth expenditure that would have little impact on illegal immigration.” (Emphasis mine) Also it would create many “direct harms:” “the spending, the taxes, the eminent domain abuse, and the decrease in immigrant’s freedoms of movement.”

And, we must add, since conservative sources do not — that the environmental harms are likely to be severe.

In other words, the facts show that walls don’t work and they create even bigger, more expensive problems.


So what happened after I posted this conservative-sourced, fact-based list of why the wall is a bad idea?

Silence.

I waited for someone to respond, to engage with me. Where were the angry defenses or rebuttals? But when I searched for the post after a few days, I couldn’t find it.

My FB friend had deleted it. You could say, like Trump with the government, he shut me down rather than deal with the facts.

The ugly genius of Trump is his ability to manipulate deep, primal emotions — namely fear and hate. He, along with Fox News, have convinced his base that they are in “extreme danger” from immigrants and only a wall will make them “safe.”

Unfortunately, the need to “feel” safe is much stronger than the will to grapple with a complex, multi-faceted problem.

And so, here we are, paralyzed by shutdowns at every turn.

85 replies, 12722 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 85 replies Author Time Post
Reply What Happened When A Trump Supporter Challenged Me About the Wall (Original post)
babylonsister Dec 30 OP
Girard442 Dec 30 #1
TheBlackAdder Dec 30 #13
Fortinbras Armstrong Dec 30 #30
TheBlackAdder Dec 30 #33
Fortinbras Armstrong Dec 31 #83
Locrian Dec 31 #80
maddiemom Dec 30 #24
lunatica Dec 30 #57
NastyRiffraff Dec 30 #67
Glorfindel Dec 30 #2
Ohiogal Dec 30 #3
WinstonSmith4740 Dec 30 #49
Hekate Dec 30 #56
WinstonSmith4740 Dec 30 #59
llmart Dec 30 #60
yardwork Dec 30 #4
Pantagruel Dec 30 #5
irisblue Dec 30 #6
onethatcares Dec 30 #7
babylonsister Dec 30 #9
3Hotdogs Dec 30 #12
Hoyt Dec 30 #8
Iggo Dec 30 #34
FuzzyRabbit Dec 30 #40
Doitnow Dec 30 #51
watoos Dec 30 #10
lostnfound Dec 30 #11
Archae Dec 30 #14
DontBooVote Dec 30 #54
llmart Dec 30 #62
Martin Eden Dec 30 #15
GoneOffShore Dec 30 #16
ancianita Dec 30 #17
LittleGirl Dec 30 #18
Hermit-The-Prog Dec 30 #28
Haggis for Breakfast Dec 30 #73
PatSeg Dec 30 #19
Bayard Dec 30 #20
SunSeeker Dec 30 #21
dalton99a Dec 30 #22
B Stieg Dec 30 #23
homegirl Dec 30 #25
Grammy23 Dec 30 #26
chwaliszewski Dec 30 #27
Kurt V. Dec 30 #29
Javaman Dec 30 #31
hwmnbn Dec 30 #32
Dyedinthewoolliberal Dec 30 #35
FM123 Dec 30 #36
Whiskeytide Dec 30 #37
cab67 Dec 30 #38
AlexSFCA Dec 30 #39
cab67 Dec 30 #69
Initech Dec 30 #41
cab67 Dec 30 #42
Elwood P Dowd Dec 30 #43
ffr Dec 30 #44
tblue37 Dec 30 #45
smirkymonkey Dec 30 #46
trixie2 Dec 30 #47
PatrickforO Dec 30 #48
calimary Dec 30 #50
xor Dec 30 #52
denvine Dec 30 #53
thucythucy Dec 30 #55
Hekate Dec 30 #58
sellitman Dec 30 #61
Nitram Dec 30 #63
Hamlette Dec 30 #64
Talitha Dec 30 #65
marble falls Dec 30 #66
Cheviteau Dec 30 #68
LiberalLovinLug Dec 30 #70
Quixote1818 Dec 30 #71
trueblue2007 Dec 30 #72
UpInArms Dec 30 #74
tclambert Dec 30 #75
Lithos Dec 31 #76
babylonsister Dec 31 #81
Poiuyt Dec 31 #77
Journeyman Dec 31 #78
DonaldsRump Dec 31 #79
rpannier Dec 31 #82
LineLineNew Reply K
Hermit-The-Prog Dec 31 #84
bitterross Jan 1 #85

Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 11:04 AM

1. The Wall debate isn't about facts.

It's about people showing their loyalty to their tribe and getting a win against the other tribe. Facts, history, science, financial estimates -- all just noise to these people. They're not interested.

It's like all the reichwing causes: you can't persuade them or compromise with them -- you have to meet them head-on and defeat them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Girard442 (Reply #1)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 11:31 AM

13. Correct. The wall is akin to the anti-abortion stance of churches. It's used to solidify and fleece.

.

The Bible does not affirm a stance of anti-abortion, in fact it affirms that life doesn't exist until birth.

The churches use anti-abortion as an emotional wedge issue to galvanize, retain and fleece congregants. Over the past 50 years, church attendance has been waning and there is immense pressure to keep the coffers full, which means their pews. Since the late 60s, churches have come under increased attack from free-thinkers who challenge the systems of government and society.

The wall is no different. The GOP is facing increased pressure, a section of Whites are perceiving the change of demographics as a threat, since they probably feel that the way they treat others will be returned on par, once power is lost. Their panicking and trying what they can to solidify their base. Trump is only interested in appeasing his base, not the whole of the country. The GOP loves Russia because they are trying to create a pure White Christian society, much how they desire America to become. Part of conservativism is not to develop and advance, which is the cornerstone of life. These people are not interested in changing, they want things to remain the same, so they must be willing to make those choices, and with close-nit communities, that will be difficult, as the communities will force a correction to remain.

.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TheBlackAdder (Reply #13)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 12:18 PM

30. As an aside, there is exactly one thing in the Bible which is germane to abortion

When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. -- Exodus 21:22-25


This says that if someone accidentally hits a pregnant woman, causing her to miscarry, he shall be given the same punishment as for property damage. Injury to the woman is treated as if it were an assault on her. Clearly, the fetus is not considered to be a human being. And the sages of the Talmud took this, and said that one only becomes a human being when one is born.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Fortinbras Armstrong (Reply #30)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 12:24 PM

33. Also, child is not born until its first breath. There are several passages about fetuses dying.

.

Those passages amount to just a small fine.

The anti-abortion "Pro-Lifers" try to use the one instance you've cited to show an eye for an eye, meaning that there should be punishment for the death of a fetus.

Others try to say that God knows all at conception, there are passages about the sand rising up to form the fetus, since they had no concept of how conception occurred back then. These passages can be easily discounted, as God allows pregnant mothers to die in catastrophes, disease, illness, etc., which is part of God's plan. An abortion might have also been in God's plan too.

.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TheBlackAdder (Reply #33)

Mon Dec 31, 2018, 09:28 AM

83. Yes, there should be a punishment for causing a miscarriage

But it's the punishment for destroying property, not the punishment for taking a life.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Fortinbras Armstrong (Reply #30)

Mon Dec 31, 2018, 07:37 AM

80. what about Numbers 5:11-31


But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”


sounds actually "pro" abortion

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Girard442 (Reply #1)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 12:03 PM

24. "Stupid is as Stupid Does." (Forrest Gump's mom).

Anyone intelligent, involved in politics,starting at the local level, always knew Trump was a buffoon. Did he get so any votes due to "The Apprentice." It's possible. He still lost the popular vote (don't get me started about the Electoral College). Having been on the phone with voters during several presidential elections, my faith in the average voter has been blown. Granted the majority are reasonable, but probably one in four or five are totally clueless. More than once I've had women tell me that they vote as their husbands and/or fathers tell them ( In the 21st century)! I've had men tell me, absolutely convinced, that Obama was born in Kenya. As a longtime teacher, I know that far too many students can be resistant to learning, and many parents are threatened by critical thinking. I have, sadly, begun to throw in the towel.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to maddiemom (Reply #24)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 01:31 PM

57. Your energy is better utilized where it makes a difference

Don’t think of it as throwing in the towel. Think of it as wising up to the correct use of your energy, where the results really do count.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Girard442 (Reply #1)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 05:07 PM

67. It isn't even about a wall

That wall will never be built and Trump knows it. He keeps calling for a wall because of the promises he made at his rally; now his Deplorables are demanding that wall. (Oddly, they're not demanding that Mexico pay for it!)

The wall myth is slowly falling apart; now it's steel slats (that are beautiful!), or as Nancy Pelosi brilliantly put it a "beaded curtain." Lindsay Graham is now calling it "border security."

But, 800,000 federal workers aren't getting paid because of a fantasy wall.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 11:06 AM

2. Very useful, babylonsister. Thanks for posting it.

"when I searched for the post after a few days, I couldn’t find it. when I searched for the post after a few days, I couldn’t find it. My FB friend had deleted it."

Of course the FB "friend" deleted the post. tRump's deplorables don't want to be bothered with facts.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 11:07 AM

3. Thank you for this, babylonsister

I am archiving it so I can pull it out and have facts at my fingertips if I ever get into it with a Deplorable.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ohiogal (Reply #3)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 01:00 PM

49. Can you walk me through that?

Have never archived anything, so have no idea how to do it, and definitely want to access this again. And where do I find it after I archive it?
Thanks!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WinstonSmith4740 (Reply #49)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 01:27 PM

56. At the bottom of the OP (original post) there is a Bookmark tab. Click that; it turns yellow

To retrieve it later, go to the top of your screen page, where it has a line of personal-to-you tabs: My Profile My Account My Bookmarks My Inbox. Click on My Bookmarks and this thread should show up.

That's the only thing that comes to mind for archiving on the site.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hekate (Reply #56)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 01:34 PM

59. Thanks so much!

I had hit that tab, but was looking for a place on DU where it went. As usual, the simplest explanation is the right one!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hekate (Reply #56)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 01:35 PM

60. Thank you for the explanation. I've never used the bookmark function before.

This post is bookmark worthy as far as I'm concerned. I will be sharing it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 11:12 AM

4. Excellent. Thank you.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 11:12 AM

5. Fabulous compendium-thanks!

I've been cobbling together my own list but this is much better.
Everyone should copy it and use it all over the net, over and over.
Batter them with it!!
And pass it along.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 11:12 AM

6. Boommarked for the inevitable future use.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 11:16 AM

7. may I use this?

on another site where the stupid runs deep?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to onethatcares (Reply #7)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 11:22 AM

9. It's ok by me, just use link

for attribution.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to onethatcares (Reply #7)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 11:23 AM

12. Since it comes from CATO, I'd say yes. Just credit the source.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 11:17 AM

8. Excellent facts. Sadly, most wall supporters just want a Monument-to-Hatred on our border.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hoyt (Reply #8)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 12:25 PM

34. There you have it. It's zero sum.

They feel like shit and they think the only way to not feel like shit is to make someone else feel like shit.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hoyt (Reply #8)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 12:35 PM

40. Trump wants a permanent monument to himself.

Trump has probably heard of Hadrian's Wall, and of course the Great Wall of China. He wants a monument to himself so that future generations can remember his greatness.

Of course Trump's Wall is a pie-in-the-sky idea with no chance of being financed and built, but Trump is too stupid to know that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FuzzyRabbit (Reply #40)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 01:18 PM

51. Stupid people don't know they're stupid.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 11:22 AM

10. Well done,

and there are a lot more reasons for no wall. Wasn't it Bush who pushed for the wall and I remember the property owners along the border who were fighting against eminent domain.

I mean the wall may be the dumbest idea I have ever seen proposed by anyone.

"Fixed fortifications are monuments to man's stupidity." General George Patton.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 11:23 AM

11. Great list and great post. Nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 11:32 AM

14. Trump will not give the REAL reason for his wall.

He knows it won't be long before he dies, and so many of his "legacies" are gone, exposed as frauds, or no longer labeled with his name.

He wants the "Trump Wall" as his last shot at "immortality."

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Archae (Reply #14)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 01:23 PM

54. The reality, going forward, to me is profoundly heartbreaking.

Fact is...the reality is...his immortality is already cemented into American history. This disgraceful, loathsome cancer of a human being's name will be forever repeated in the halls of education, the chambers of congresses, the annals of history and journalism and media and entertainment. his name and ideology will forever be looked upon as if a deity by legions of those whose hearts and minds are just as poisoned; he will be their hero for the rest of the existence of this nation.

For the rest of our existence, this...cretin...will haunt our lives and will act as a cancer on our society and our discourse. And, I, for one, am heartbroken over this new reality.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DontBooVote (Reply #54)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 01:38 PM

62. So is Hitler's name...

Doesn't mean it's something to be proud of. Trump will be right there next to the other evil beings that have gone before him or after. I also hope Dick Cheney's name is as tainted as Trump's.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 11:34 AM

15. K&R x 5 billion

These facts and critical analysis need to be at the forefront of the national discussion.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 11:35 AM

16. Thank you! Bookmarking!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 11:36 AM

17. Awesome! Bookmarked.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 11:41 AM

18. Thank you for this post

I have bookmarked it for future use as I'm sure it will come in handy soon.

It's so weird that 30 yrs after "tear down that wall", the new communist in the WH wants to build another one. Actually, it's more like Stephen Miller wants it and IQ45 is just doing his bidding. I really hate those people.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LittleGirl (Reply #18)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 12:12 PM

28. not communist; Stalinist

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hermit-The-Prog (Reply #28)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 08:32 PM

73. Yes, Hermit.

Stalinist. You just "robin-hooded" the bulls-eye.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 11:41 AM

19. This is excellent!

Thanks for posting.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 11:44 AM

20. Copied and saved

thanks!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 11:52 AM

21. K & R & bookmarked!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 11:56 AM

22. A must read

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 12:00 PM

23. Well said and well sourced!

Love your work, B. Sister. Thank you, again!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 12:05 PM

25. May I

congratulate you and borrow your very comprehensive and superbly documented post?


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 12:05 PM

26. Excellent summary of why a wall is not the solution to the problem.


Sadly, many (maybe most) of those who need to read it with understanding would rather deal in empty rhetoric or raw emotion. Facts and logic hold no place in their toolbox of ways to solve a problem. And tRump knows this so he keeps hammering them with fear and distortions. Keep them ginned up to fight a stupid battle and ignore solutions that might work.

I suppose with time they will get tired of the fight and cooler heads will prevail. I hope the House will stick to their plan and not give one thin dime to tRump. That will enrage him more but we know he flails and loses his tiny mind when he does not get his way.

The tRump Wall is a stupid waste of resources and apt to cause even more problems. It won’t solve the immigration problems either. I don’t expect the tRump base to understand this but the Wall can be put off, delayed or stopped until they get distracted by some other booger bear thought up by tRump.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 12:09 PM

27. +5,000,000,000

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 12:16 PM

29. K&R

thanks!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 12:21 PM

31. I bow in the presence of greatness. That was brilliant. :) nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 12:22 PM

32. Thank you!!

This is bookmarked for future reference.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 12:27 PM

35. Excellent!

I hope to be able to share with the more conservative members of my family and so on................. Thanks!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 12:27 PM

36. They are so insistent on being ignorant!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 12:28 PM

37. Great post. Book-marked. n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 12:29 PM

38. The Berlin Wall was not just a wall.

It was a mine field bordered by two walls. There were booby traps, and the sand covering the mine field wea raked smooth daily - that way, footprints could be spotted.

As people grew more creative in their efforts to get through, East German officials had to keep upgrading and improving the wall’s structure. That probably cost a fortune.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 12:35 PM

39. Berlin wall was to keep them in from escaping not from coming in

The whole idea of a wall for trump has absolutely nothing to do wether it’s effective or not. It has everything to do with demonstrating an ability to bend government to his knees and fulfilling campaign promise. E.g. as soon as the wall is built, he will be lying to no end how border crossings have diminished, etc.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AlexSFCA (Reply #39)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 06:01 PM

69. useless side point -

the Berlin Wall actually had pre-made soft points so that tanks could break through and allow Warsaw Pact forces to get through should war break out with NATO.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 12:35 PM

41. I just quote Benjamin Franklin on this subject:

"Those who are willing to trade freedom for security don't deserve either. "

Usually shuts them up!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 12:35 PM

42. A good comparison is with the war on drugs.

We can criminalize the sale and possession of narcotics all we want. We can make the sentences stiffer, confiscate property, and have the police act increasingly militaristically toward dealers until we’ve bankrupted the country, and it won’t do jack shit as long as we ignore the root causes of addiction and drug use.

Want to curtail border crossings? How about addressing the poverty and violence that drive people in Latin America toward the border in the first place.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 12:37 PM

43. Our congress members need to hit the TV news shows with some of these facts. K&R.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 12:38 PM

44. I'm a little surprised. Usually they respond with a red herring fallacy unrelated to your reply.

Which completely ignores the fact that you 100% nailed their flimsy argument in one reply.

Good job!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 12:39 PM

45. BTW, many landowners who would have their land seized are rural Republicans. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 12:44 PM

46. K&R and bookmarked!

Thank you for posting this babylonsister!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 12:57 PM

47. I have started asking

"How do you know it's not just about keeping people out but also to keep us in and isolated?" At what point, if this continues, will we be unable to leave the country? Calling back the troops from around the world and then using troops within the country is startling.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 12:58 PM

48. Sadly, about 51 million people, give or take, have indicated in

a recent poll that they would definitely vote for Trump again. Fifty-one million. This is 22% of the registered voters. Twenty-two percent.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/423100-poll-finds-33-percent-would-definitely-or-likely-back-Trump-for-reelection

That's a lot of racists. Another 11% said they would 'probably vote' for Trump again in 2020. That's another 25 million really low information voters.

Thirty-three percent said they would definitely vote for the Democrat in the race. That's 77.6 million what I call yellow dogs. You oldsters will know what I mean when I say that. Then, another 11% (25 million) would 'probably' vote for the Democrat opposing Trump.

Last I looked, there are 235 million registered voters in the US. In presidential elections lately, we're hovering around 60% for the ones where the incumbent was term limited (61.6% in 2008, and 60.1% in 2016).

Eleven percent said they would vote third party and thirteen percent are 'unsure.' (How the HELL could you POSSIBLY be unsure??? Sigh.)

But people have very strong feelings, either for or against, Trump. So maybe turnout will get up around 65% in 2020. If it does, then that means around 153 million people will vote, give or take. So let's take out the 'probably's' because they are mugwumps and what do we have? The bases.

Trump: 51 million
Democrat: 77.6 million
Third party: 25 million

So how many of the mugwumps will probably vote? Who knows? But 51 + 77.6 + 25 = 153.6 million.

Fifty one million racist, xenophobic, homophobic spittle-spraying deplorables, all in a big basket full of guns.


But, hey, we still have a year to go. I'm sure more people will become alienated at Trump as time goes by. He's just SO detestable. Plus several economic authorities are pointing at a potentially big upcoming recession, coupled with a debt crisis that forces austerity on any Keynesian moves (to keep the government the 'spender of last resort'). The Fed won't have enough leeway for an effective QE program, either. So by this time next year, millions will be suffering from the unbelievable fiscal irresponsibility of the GOP. Some economists are even predicting 'stagflation,' a situation where we face really high interest rates and rapid inflation, along with high unemployment. Sounds great, right? THAT'S WHAT REPUBLICAN ECONOMIC POLICY DOES!!!! WHEN WILL WE EVER LEARN???

The good news then? We'll probably win the election in 2020, turn more states blue and maybe even win the Senate.

The bad news? Newly elected Democrats are gonna have a pretty big fucking mess to clean up. A historically big fucking mess. Probably at least as big as Obama had in '08.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 01:01 PM

50. Well, facts are stubborn things. This is an OUTSTANDING post.

A keeper. For sure!

PS: I’ve noticed that I haven’t heard much lately from the few conservatives I know. One friend hasn’t said “peep” about politics for weeks. Ever since the Cohen cookie crumbled a few Fridays ago. This is one of the same people who’ve been insisting “there’s no evidence...” for at least a couple of years.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to calimary (Reply #50)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 01:23 PM

52. It's shame that, as someone above mentioned, facts simply do not matter to most Trumpers.

Actually, facts don't seem to matter to many people in general when it comes politics.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 01:23 PM

53. Thank you babylonsister for posting this and on your research to get the facts!

Unfortunately trumpsters don't care about facts, but we do. I have copied for future reference.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 01:24 PM

55. Thank you for this.

Excellent post, and excellent illustration of how Trumpsters "argue"--name calling and straw men, followed by cowardly flight and shutting down the debate when presented with a real argument.

I think the perfect metaphor for current Republicans was Clint Eastwood "debating" an empty chair and pretending it was President Obama. Because an empty chair is the only opponent against which Republican arguments can prevail.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 01:33 PM

58. KnR n Bookmark. Kudos to the author

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 01:35 PM

61. Thanks Sister!

Bookmarked to use against the Trumpistas.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 01:39 PM

63. I've been arguing with conservatives against the wall using only facts.

I, too, have been met with total silence.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 03:19 PM

64. kick

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 04:06 PM

65. Humpty Trumpty wants a big wall...

Humpty Trumpty wants a big wall,
Humpty Trumpty, he’s gonna fall.
All of his Repugs and all of his base
Are gonna see Trumpty fall flat on his face.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 04:14 PM

66. That will certainly come in handy! Thanks!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 05:07 PM

68. Trump Couldn't Care Less

about a wall. It's been said, and correctly so, that he doesn't care anything about a wall on the southern border. He wants a fight with the Democrats about a wall. He believes he can win that fight Politically, with or without a wall. Anything, dear lord, anything, to divert attention away from his soon to be fat ass going to prison. Oh, and don't argue with fools. You may be mistaken for one. But your very good research has educated we DU readers. Thanks.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 06:12 PM

70. Good on ya! You should always include a link to this brilliant YouTube video as well

Best of Luck with the Wall

&t=97s

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 06:17 PM

71. I used the Cato Institute article a couple of weeks ago with a Conservative FB Friend

No one responded to it with arguments, they just put laughing emoji faces.

Interesting, I posted the CATO link on DU right after that and didn't get one like or response.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211571674

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 06:27 PM

72. walla are ugly hideous and usesless structures. But.... i want to put a WALL around Trump. A Jail.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 10:11 PM

74. Thank you for your thoughtful response to others

I found the same thing ... rather that civil debate, the deletion of all thought

I deactivated Facebook a couple of months ago

I don’t miss it

I do really hope you, and all here, have a marvelous 2019

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 10:20 PM

75. The fine for knowingly hiring an illegal immigrant is as low as $250.

That is why criminal business people hire illegals. If the fine were $1,000,000, no one would risk hiring an illegal immigrant, and they would triple check they didn't hire any illegals by accident.

A million dollar fine probably wouldn't survive an 8th Amendment challenge ("excessive fines shall not be imposed". But a $50,000 fine, roughly equal to the median income in America (for a man), might be ruled reasonable, since the illegal immigrant would presumably be taking a job away from an American. What business person, even a criminal, would risk a fine that size?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2018, 12:01 AM

76. Hey, need your help on a related topic

We all know the wall is just an expression of extreme xenophobia (racism primarily towards Hispanics).

You've covered the immigration part.

But what about drugs? That's the next bit down the argument chain where people from Mexico are also all criminals. To be honest, most of the drugs are coming in via shipments and organized cartels which are unrelated to immigration, often involve US citizens, and are not limited to border crossings. I've just started my collection here - but do you come across any good links along those lines.

L-


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Lithos (Reply #76)

Mon Dec 31, 2018, 08:47 AM

81. Here's results from a quick search:

https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2017.303884?journalCode=ajph


Undocumented Immigration, Drug Problems, and Driving Under the Influence in the United States, 1990–2014
Michael T. Light PhD, Ty Miller MS, and Brian C. Kelly PhD
Author affiliations, information, and correspondence details
Accepted: April 23, 2017
Published Online: August 08, 2017

Objectives. To examine the influence of undocumented immigration in the United States on 4 different metrics of drug and alcohol problems: drug arrests, drug overdose fatalities, driving under the influence (DUI) arrests, and DUI deaths.

Methods. We combined newly developed state-level estimates of the undocumented population between 1990 and 2014 from the Center for Migration Studies with arrest data from the Federal Bureau of Investigation Uniform Crime Reports and fatality information from the Fatality Analysis Reporting System and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Underlying Cause of Death database. We used fixed-effects regression models to examine the longitudinal association between increased undocumented immigration and drug problems and drunk driving.

Results. Increased undocumented immigration was significantly associated with reductions in drug arrests, drug overdose deaths, and DUI arrests, net of other factors. There was no significant relationship between increased undocumented immigration and DUI deaths.

Conclusions. This study provides evidence that undocumented immigration has not increased the prevalence of drug or alcohol problems, but may be associated with reductions in these public health concerns.

******************************
The Myth of the Criminal Immigrant - The New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/30/upshot/crime-immigration-myth.html
Mar 30, 2018 - The link between immigration and crime exists in the imaginations of ... “Every day, sanctuary cities release illegal immigrants, drug dealers, ... New York at Buffalo, researchers compared immigration rates with crime rates for ...
*************************
https://www.npr.org/2018/05/02/607652253/studies-say-illegal-immigration-does-not-increase-violent-crime

Illegal Immigration Does Not Increase Violent Crime, 4 Studies Show
May 2, 20185:09 AM ET
**************************
There's lots more in the google...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2018, 01:32 AM

77. Great post, as always!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2018, 03:53 AM

78. Excellent article. Quite useful. I plan to share this widely . . .

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2018, 07:04 AM

79. One of the most useful posts I've ever come across on DU

Have already sent this to many people.

This is EXACTLY the kind of messaging the Ds need to get out regarding "the wall."

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2018, 09:16 AM

82. K&R

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rpannier (Reply #82)

Mon Dec 31, 2018, 12:46 PM

84. K

(can't R again)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Tue Jan 1, 2019, 12:15 AM

85. Than you so much for this.

Last edited Tue Jan 1, 2019, 02:10 AM - Edit history (1)

I hope you do not mind I have copied it and I have pasted it on sites like TheHill in response to right-wingers.

Such a great job summarizing the issue and providing references I love you!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread