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Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:22 AM

I didn't vote for a woman in 2016

I voted for Hillary Clinton, former Secretary of State, former U. S. Senator, the best vetted and hands down one of the most qualified people ever to run for the office.

I didn't vote for a black man in 2008; I voted for Barack Obama, former U. S. Senator, professor of constitutional law, and one of the most inspiring orators I had ever seen.

I didn't vote for a white man in 2004; I voted for John Kerry, former Secretary of State, former U. S. Senator, recipient of the Silver and Bronze stars, and anti-war activist.

I didn't vote for a white man in 2000; I voted for Al Gore, former Vice President, former U. S. Senator, one of the first to recognize the the coming of information technology, who sounded the alarm of global warming.


I will make electability arguments that will include factors such as race and gender, but only as applies to how it my help or hurt in certain demographics; none of that has anything to do with my personal preference. I want a capable, honorable candidate who can win. Period.

Comments like "too many penises" and "no more white guys" are simply bigoted, IMO, and I frankly cannot understand how they are permitted under the TOS.

120 replies, 5147 views

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Arrow 120 replies Author Time Post
Reply I didn't vote for a woman in 2016 (Original post)
LongtimeAZDem Dec 2018 OP
Squinch Dec 2018 #1
MrsCoffee Dec 2018 #3
Adrahil Dec 2018 #16
Squinch Dec 2018 #20
TCJ70 Dec 2018 #28
Squinch Dec 2018 #40
TCJ70 Dec 2018 #49
Squinch Dec 2018 #51
TCJ70 Dec 2018 #55
LanternWaste Dec 2018 #62
TCJ70 Dec 2018 #67
Squinch Dec 2018 #72
Squinch Dec 2018 #66
MadDAsHell Dec 2018 #103
Squinch Dec 2018 #110
MadDAsHell Dec 2018 #113
Squinch Dec 2018 #114
MadDAsHell Dec 2018 #115
Squinch Dec 2018 #116
Adrahil Dec 2018 #33
Squinch Dec 2018 #41
Adrahil Dec 2018 #58
MariePinchon Dec 2018 #56
Chemisse Dec 2018 #52
LiberalLovinLug Dec 2018 #80
Squinch Dec 2018 #81
LiberalLovinLug Dec 2018 #87
Squinch Dec 2018 #89
LiberalLovinLug Dec 2018 #92
Squinch Dec 2018 #93
LiberalLovinLug Dec 2018 #95
Squinch Dec 2018 #96
Atticus Dec 2018 #101
Squinch Dec 2018 #112
TomSlick Dec 2018 #97
FBaggins Dec 2018 #53
Squinch Dec 2018 #91
FBaggins Dec 2018 #99
Squinch Dec 2018 #100
lark Dec 2018 #64
Squinch Dec 2018 #69
lark Dec 2018 #70
Squinch Dec 2018 #73
lark Dec 2018 #88
Squinch Dec 2018 #90
LiberalLovinLug Dec 2018 #83
Squinch Dec 2018 #84
trev Dec 2018 #104
johnp3907 Dec 2018 #2
trev Dec 2018 #105
MrsCoffee Dec 2018 #4
LongtimeAZDem Dec 2018 #5
MrsCoffee Dec 2018 #6
Adrahil Dec 2018 #19
MrsCoffee Dec 2018 #21
Adrahil Dec 2018 #25
BannonsLiver Dec 2018 #24
MrsCoffee Dec 2018 #31
Squinch Dec 2018 #43
BannonsLiver Dec 2018 #45
Squinch Dec 2018 #48
trev Dec 2018 #106
BannonsLiver Dec 2018 #108
Squinch Dec 2018 #111
kcr Dec 2018 #117
BannonsLiver Dec 2018 #120
Squinch Dec 2018 #47
Adrahil Dec 2018 #50
Squinch Dec 2018 #77
Adrahil Dec 2018 #78
namahage Dec 2018 #79
LexVegas Dec 2018 #7
Guppy Dec 2018 #8
MrsCoffee Dec 2018 #12
Guppy Dec 2018 #29
MrsCoffee Dec 2018 #32
Guppy Dec 2018 #37
MrsCoffee Dec 2018 #38
Guppy Dec 2018 #42
Squinch Dec 2018 #75
karynnj Dec 2018 #34
Caliman73 Dec 2018 #65
BannonsLiver Dec 2018 #71
ismnotwasm Dec 2018 #9
Caliman73 Dec 2018 #68
ismnotwasm Dec 2018 #74
Caliman73 Dec 2018 #76
cilla4progress Dec 2018 #10
karynnj Dec 2018 #27
Adrahil Dec 2018 #57
LakeArenal Dec 2018 #11
borgesian Dec 2018 #36
karynnj Dec 2018 #13
Autumn Dec 2018 #14
BannonsLiver Dec 2018 #35
mopinko Dec 2018 #15
Adrahil Dec 2018 #22
mopinko Dec 2018 #23
InAbLuEsTaTe Dec 2018 #85
kcr Dec 2018 #118
FakeNoose Dec 2018 #17
LongtimeAZDem Dec 2018 #18
MrsCoffee Dec 2018 #26
Squinch Dec 2018 #86
jrthin Dec 2018 #30
DavidDvorkin Dec 2018 #39
mr_lebowski Dec 2018 #44
MariePinchon Dec 2018 #59
mr_lebowski Dec 2018 #82
BannonsLiver Dec 2018 #46
WeekiWater Dec 2018 #54
Gothmog Dec 2018 #60
LanternWaste Dec 2018 #61
Caliman73 Dec 2018 #63
quickesst Dec 2018 #94
Sparkly Dec 2018 #98
MadDAsHell Dec 2018 #102
Devil Child Dec 2018 #107
cynatnite Dec 2018 #109
kcr Dec 2018 #119

Response to LongtimeAZDem (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:38 AM

1. If the Democratic primary is between a woman and a man,

I'm voting for the woman.

250 years is long enough to wait.

There are MANY excellent choices among Democratic woman, all as good as or better than the offered male candidates.

PS to those who are tempted to list all the horrible women in history and put their hands on their hips and say, "You gonna vote for her? Huh? Huh?" please stop and think. Don't do it. Don't embarrass yourself.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:40 AM

3. You and me both.

250 years. They can't even let that sink in for a minute.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:54 AM

16. Regardless of positions or qualifications?

 

I mean, I get your point. And I definitely see a female candidate getting bonus points. I was SOOO excited at the prospect of woman for President in 2016. But other factors do matter. I thought HRC was BY FAR the best candidate.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #16)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:56 AM

20. Really, does no one read?

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Response to Squinch (Reply #20)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:01 PM

28. I see you automatically disqualifying people based on gender.

Doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

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Response to TCJ70 (Reply #28)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:10 PM

40. Kay. You go with that.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #40)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:21 PM

49. I mean...it's not like this is the only post you've made on the subject:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11554462
I hereby declare openly that, in the primary, if there is a female and a male candidate, I will vote for the female.


Everyone will make decisions based on their own set of weighted criteria...if you want to weigh gender more heavily than anything else that's up to you. I'm just saying don't be surprised when people say you're discriminating based on gender.

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Response to TCJ70 (Reply #49)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:27 PM

51. Is this supposed to be some kind of gotcha?

And if, after 250 years in which 51% of the population has never been represented, someone says a vote for a member of that 51%, chosen from possible Democratic party primary contenders, is discriminatory, I'd have to just think they had lost their minds.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #51)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:33 PM

55. Not at all...

...unless you consider your own words a gotcha. Everyone has different priorities that they use to choose who to vote for. I just think it's odd to think someone can't do something based on what's between their legs. Seems to me we've been in that place before and it's not a great place to be.

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Response to TCJ70 (Reply #55)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:59 PM

62. We've spent recorded history in one specific place

"Seems to me we've been in that place before and it's not a great place to be...."

We've spent recorded history in one specific place-- that is, dominated by one and only one gender. False equivalencies aside, there has never been a corollary to that specific historical model, so no need to maintain the pretense of self-righteousness.

Damned odd, indeed.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #62)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:41 PM

67. No arguments from me. I understand the history.

But is reversing the scenario out of some sort of "revenge" (I know this isn't a best word but I can't think of another one at the moment) the best way to move forward? Is the answer to sexism/racism towards one group to have that group be sexist/racist towards the original sexists/racists? Don't get me wrong, I think we'd both agree oppression in any form is wrong.

Simply because there hasn't been a reversed situation doesn't make that reversed situation automatically correct...maybe that's a better way to say what I'm thinking about your response.

Do you think being male is an unacceptable trait to have in a president? That's what Squinch is saying. In my view it's a silly question. Anyone with good ideas and an attitude that expresses a willingness to push for those ideas and not give in easily is fine in my book...whatever gender they happen to be.

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Response to TCJ70 (Reply #67)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:52 PM

72. No, it is not some sort of revenge! It is a desire to be represented!

And no, I'm not saying maleness is an unacceptable trait to have in a president! I am pretty sure you are perfectly well aware I am not saying that.

I am saying femaleness is acceptable in a president, and its time we acted on that. After 250 years of maleness.

Jesus, you are working very hard to misunderstand and to put words in my mouth.

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Response to TCJ70 (Reply #55)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:39 PM

66. "I just think it's odd to think someone can't do something based on what's between their legs."

Well, that's exactly my point.

For 250 years, 51% of the population has been unrepresented because of what is between their legs. Its time for that to end.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #51)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 10:46 PM

103. Why are people assuming gender has to be the next frontier?

 

We've never had an HIV-positive President.

Never had an LGBTQIA President.

Never had a single parent President.

Never had an Hispanic-American, Asian American, or Native American President.

Never had a President with decades worth of student loans.

I don't understand why gender is the next AND ONLY frontier for so many.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Reply #103)

Tue Dec 18, 2018, 06:38 AM

110. Because 51% of the population are women and we have never been represented.

It's time.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #110)

Wed Dec 19, 2018, 09:49 AM

113. I'm not sure I agree with that.

 

Last edited Wed Dec 19, 2018, 10:33 AM - Edit history (1)

Has the entire Adian American population "never been represented" because there's never been a President with Asian American facial features?

The US has spent BILLIONS combating AIDS, but to our knowledge we've never had an HIV-positive president.

I'm not sure I agree that the only way to be represented is if the President has the same physical characteristics as you.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Reply #113)

Wed Dec 19, 2018, 10:18 AM

114. Your agreement is not required.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #114)

Wed Dec 19, 2018, 10:34 AM

115. Temper temper. nt

 

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Response to MadDAsHell (Reply #115)

Wed Dec 19, 2018, 10:43 AM

116. I feel no temper at all. Simply stating a fact.

Interesting that you read anger into it.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #20)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:01 PM

33. WEll, you said...

 

If it's between a man and a woman, you're voting for the woman. For sure, we have many qualified women. But I personally think that making a final decision based on sex is not the best idea. But do what makes ya happy, I guess.

For the record, I hope we have a woman and/or a POC on the ticket.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #33)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:11 PM

41. That's nice, dear.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #41)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:37 PM

58. ;) NT

 

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #16)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:34 PM

56. I'm not sure you did get the point.

 

There are many Democratic women who are just as qualified if not more qualified than some of the male candidates who are being considered. The fact is that a male candidate goes in with an advantage based solely on his being a man, regardless of qualifications.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:27 PM

52. I'll vote for the best, but if all else is equal I will vote for the woman. n/t

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Response to Chemisse (Reply #52)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:29 PM

80. That is the best approach of all I would think

Its pretty damning to admit that you don't care about policy, or if another candidate would address the issues you care most about. That the only requirement is that are of a member of a particular gender.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #80)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:35 PM

81. OK, so damn me. I want to be represented. Horrible, I know.

And I really don't see much policy differences among the Democratic primary contenders being floated. So yep. I'm going to vote to get representation for 51% of the population for the first time in 250 years.

I'm perfectly OK with you damning me for that.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #81)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 03:36 PM

87. I could come up with a different word I guess.

Someone else brought up Beto O'Rourke. So if in the next primary, it was between Elizabeth Warren, or Beto, yet all the independent polls showed that Beto had a way better shot at winning the Presidency. Which probably would be the case as the GOP have had, much like for Hillary, a long head start on the smears and political assassination of Warren. While Beto is relatively new on the scene, and also has been already introduced and well received in Texas.

Because if that was the choice.....my heart would be with Warren. I would love to see her as President. Not just because it would be fantastic to finally have a woman break that highest of glass ceilings, but even more importantly because I am in tune with her positions, which are much like Sanders. And I am wary of Beto's more 'third way' appeasement approach, which hasn't worked for over a decade. I would if I could vote, hold my nose if I had to, and vote for Beto, because he would be our next best hope. Would you be voting for Warren....no matter what the polls say, simply because of her gender?


Why not at least add, as Chemisse did, "if all else is equal" to clarify then? ie....if they were polling neck and neck in both positions and electability. Sorry if it feels like I'm picking on you, but it SOUNDED like you are prepared to give a pass on everything, positions and electability, to vote for someone based on gender only.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #87)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 04:08 PM

89. For me, choosing from the list of Democratic possibilities being floated, all else IS equal.

Or, more accurately, none of the differences comes close to my desire to be represented. None of the differences comes close to overcoming my outrage that 51%.of the population has never been represented for 250 years.

The preferences I am seeing people express for Joe over Beto or Liz over Kamala are all expressed in terms of feelings, not policy. If you get right down to it, their policy differences are minimal. So my feeling is that THOSE expressions of preference are frivolous.

And it is my feeling that a desire to see 51% of The population represented for the first time in history is in no way frivolous.

I do find the near hysteria with which my assertion has been met to be disturbing and telling. It is easy to forget, sometimes, how little regard even my fellow Democrats have for women.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #89)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 04:39 PM

92. "how little regard even my fellow Democrats have for women"

Really?

So you never answered about my example about Sarah Silverman. Who like many Democratic voting women, the choice between Cllinton's "differences" and Sanders "differences" WERE important enough to decide who she supported. The 'minimal' policy positions were not a 'frivolous' thing for her. In fact it compelled her switch from Hillary to Sanders.

I just think you are presuming a lot about all having the same policies. I used the Warren / O'Rourke example because that would be an interesting situation. As many here associate Warren with Sanders, who is much maligned by them, and O'Rourke with the more conservative wing of the party, and the Clintons. I regard Warren with great respect, and I think she'd be a fantastic President. And I'd rather her than Beto. But I'd vote Beto if he had the clear shot at winning the GE....not because he is a man.

But if ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, ie....if both were polling the same, I'd definitely back Warren. Because at that point, I would have the opportunity of choosing, finally, a female for President. I'd love to do that.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #92)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 04:44 PM

93. Why would I need to analyze Sarah Silverman's actions? I didn't answer the question

because I found it inane.

I think I've been clear about my position and have no desire to answer your list of "what abouts " nor address your "your opinion about x is wrong because it doesn't match mine" comments.

Have the last word.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #93)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 05:19 PM

95. I only was curious about your reaction to the Silverman example

I'm sure you'd say that that is her decision, and has nothing to do with you. That's fine. Not all Democrat woman voters have the same priorities. Its a big tent and all that. I agree. She just had a higher watermark than gender is all. So its odd that you'd openly admit your standards are much more one dimensional. "If the Democratic primary is between a woman and a man, I'm voting for the woman."




Okay after saying all that, I'm sorry. Because I do understand what you meant. That any candidate....whether man or woman... would be light years ahead of any Republican candidate. And so, ANY woman, at least the leading woman candidate, would have your vote. That is totally logical. All I was pointing out was that there were others who, while they also appreciate the fact that we are overdue having the highest decisions in the land being made through the life experience and eyes of a woman, are still more prone to look at policy first.....even if that means putting on hold a great historic first.

A better example would be if Warren had been in Sanders place in the last primary, and it was Elizabeth vs. Hillary. Or if it will be Warren vs. Harris, or Harris vs. Gillibrand. Because then you'd have to consider policies as well, minute though you feel they may be. But I guess you'd cross that bridge if it ever came up. You and me both!

best of the holidays.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #95)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 05:24 PM

96. Happy holidays to you too.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #81)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 10:17 PM

101. Been where you're at and it is exasperating, isn't it? I think some folks consider

misconstruing others' posts a hobby. I agree with what you actually said.

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Response to Atticus (Reply #101)

Tue Dec 18, 2018, 06:50 AM

112. Thanks for this. The hysteria with which my words have been

received here is very, very telling. And I would say disturbing, but if I had thought about it I could probably have predicted it.

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Response to Chemisse (Reply #52)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 07:27 PM

97. That's the plan.

A candidate being a woman is a tie-breaker.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:28 PM

53. I too would like to see a female president... but your stated policy borders on sexism

I will not accept that the least qualified female Democrat is preferable to the most qualified male.

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #53)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 04:34 PM

91. A woman says women should be represented for the first time

in 250 years and all the men erupt with cries of "sexism!"

I am seeing the humor. You?

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Response to Squinch (Reply #91)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 08:24 PM

99. Wow... you can just sense gender across the internet, eh?

Those all just have to be men disagreeing with you, right?

A woman says women should be represented for the first time

I'm well aware of how you tried to spin away from it (not that it's any better to claim that women can't "represent" men or vice versa)... but there's no escaping the fact that you're saying that for you (without even knowing who the options will be), the least qualified woman in the party is preferable to the most qualified male.

Yes... I see quite a bit of humor here.

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #99)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 09:26 PM

100. Ok. You go with that.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:28 PM

64. Don't agree.

I would vote for Joe Biden any day in the presidential primary before I'd even consider voting for Gillibrand or Harris. They are not nearly as qualified, don't have his heart and caring, and stabbed a great Senator in the back for their own badge burnishing. i would support Harris for VP, let her mature, learn not to jump to conclusions without getting the facts, then support her for President later. Gillibrand is nothing but a self-promoting serial backstabbing conserva-dem and I really don't want to have to vote for her, although between her and drumpf, I'd 100% vote for her, holding my nose the entire time.

I vote for the best candidate, regardless if it's a man or woman. I happily voted for HRC last time. I just think Joe is the best candidate and he's got the most early support among the Dems. We'll see what happens in the primaries.

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Response to lark (Reply #64)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:47 PM

69. I love Joe, but he stabbed Anita Hill for HIS own burnishing.

He bears a lot of responsibility for Clarence Thomas, hence the 2000 election SC decision, hence all that came of that.

He has at least as many negatives as any Democratic female contender we might name - really tons more negatives - but somehow we don't hold them against him.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #69)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:48 PM

70. Joe learned and changed, their bad deeds just happened.

That's the difference.

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Response to lark (Reply #70)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:54 PM

73. Lol! I suspect that you guys will come up with some lame argument like

that whenever we discuss the relative merits of a male.vs a female.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #73)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 03:57 PM

88. I'm not a guy - fail.

I'm a 66 year old woman who's a progressive yellow dog Democrat.

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Response to lark (Reply #88)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 04:32 PM

90. My reply stands.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:44 PM

83. So....is someone like Sarah Silverman wrong?

She was a Hillary supporter. She was stoked that she could help usher in the first female President. Then she heard Bernie and switched to him after she heard his platform. She made a choice based on the actual issues she cared about and who she thought would deliver them. Of course she did switch back once the winner was decided, and even made a speech at the DNC for Hillary and chastised the grumblers to get over it.

Your opinion gives credence to those that have gotten chastised on here for daring to suggest that those so irrationally antagonistic towards Bernie, (but oddly can't name any platform position he stands for they disagree with), that they only voted for her because she was a woman......because you just admitted it!!!!

Seriously, you gotta keep that stuff to yourself.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #83)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:54 PM

84. You guys are working so hard to suggest I've said things I haven't said.

The outrage is telling. I am saying that 51% of the population should be represented finally after 250 years. I am saying that, selecting from Democratic primary contenders, I will choose a woman over a man.

And there is a contingent here whose hair, head and shoes are all on fire over that.

I want representation. Deal with it.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:02 PM

104. "the horrible women in history"?

What, like Catherine the Great? Like Boadicea? Like Jeanne d'Arc?

Geez.

Women are the wave of the future. If it comes down to it in the primary, I will vote for the woman.

Times are changing. Society is changing. This is the Democratic legacy.

I want to make a difference in the world. Just voting for the man won't mean squat.

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:39 AM

2. Yeah, you don't see color or gender.

Got it.

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Response to johnp3907 (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:20 PM

105. Why is that a problem?

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:44 AM

4. Are you denying that every president has had a penis?

250 years of penises and no vaginas? And we can't say too many penises?

Watch me. Too many penises. I want one of the highly qualified women who are considering running on the Democratic ticket to be our nominee. Too many penises.

There aren't differences between most of the candidates that are big enough to change my mind. And after seeing a woman win and have it taken away from her.... Nah, It's beyond fucking time.

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Response to MrsCoffee (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:45 AM

5. No, I made no such assertion. Please reread my post. /nt

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:45 AM

6. Too many penises.

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Response to MrsCoffee (Reply #6)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:55 AM

19. Will any vagina do? NT

 

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #19)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:57 AM

21. Oh here we go again. That's been addressed.

Because we are so fucking stupid that we just want anyone with a vagina?

It couldn't possibly be that the women in the Democratic Party who have said they might run are fucking ridiculously qualified. Nah, that couldn't be it at all.

Stupid fucking argument that I expect to see repeated Ad fucking nauseam around here.

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Response to MrsCoffee (Reply #21)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:59 AM

25. Read what Squinch posted....

 

FWIW, I was an HRC partisan. Loved her. I have my eye on Kamala Harris right now. I'm perfectly happy voting for women and POC.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #19)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:59 AM

24. Apparently

The poster is saying they would vote for someone like Joni Ernst, Sarah Palin or Nikki Haley under the right set of circumstances.

Because penis, yíall1!1!


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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #24)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:01 PM

31. No, that poster is saying no such fucking thing.

What a stupid thing to say.

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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #24)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:13 PM

43. You don't read very well, apparently. Name the possible female

Democratic primary contender that you think equates with Ernst, Palin or Haley.

We'll wait.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #43)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:14 PM

45. You don't read very well either

Key word here being ďcircumstancesĒ

Iíll wait while you look up that word.

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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #45)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:20 PM

48. You going to change the word again, or do you think it makes sense this time?

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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #24)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:30 PM

106. That's a stupid comment.

The poster was embracing women Democratic candidates. Not Palin, or Haley, or who-the-f**k. But Democratic believers.

It seems that even Dems are against women....

Why?

Women are the wave of the future. They are now gaining power. Why shouldn't we support them?

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Response to trev (Reply #106)

Tue Dec 18, 2018, 12:34 AM

108. Who is denying they should be embraced?

I supported the previous nominee in both the primaries and the general gleefully. We may well have a female nominee in 2020. Who knows? I know I donít in December 2018, and neither do you.

I donít reflexively eliminate candidates based on their genitalia. That kind of thinking is for imbeciles.

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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #108)

Tue Dec 18, 2018, 06:46 AM

111. Someone who has never NOT been represented, telling those who have never BEEN

represented that we are imbeciles for wanting to be represented.

Mansplain on, dear.

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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #108)

Wed Dec 19, 2018, 11:02 AM

117. Then why do you think only men have been president? How do you account for that?

Do you think that was just by accident? If the answer is no, then you have to acknowledge that discrimination has been an issue. If that's the case, then why do you get upset at those of us who wish to address that? And if the answer is yes, well...

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Response to kcr (Reply #117)

Wed Dec 19, 2018, 12:55 PM

120. Because I don't make reflexive choices based on gender

I suppose I could draw you a picture. Not sure how much clearer I can make it.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #19)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:19 PM

47. Which possible female Democratic primary contender has

a vagina that would be unacceptable to you?

Give us the name of the woman from the cohort we're talking about - Democratic party primary contenders- that strikes terror in your heart should they be nominated?

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Response to Squinch (Reply #47)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:24 PM

50. Kirsten Gillibrand. NT

 

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #50)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:06 PM

77. I can understand that, but every male contender I have ever been

presented with has had big negatives for me too. For example Joe trashed Anita Hill, gave us Clarence Thomas which gave us the bush presidency, citizens United, and basically everything that horrified me today.

Yet we all love Joe.

So in a matchup, I'd vote for her.

I dont like what she did, bit I'd vote for her against any of the men being floated.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #77)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:12 PM

78. Okay. Fair enough. NT

 

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Response to Squinch (Reply #47)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:22 PM

79. Tulsi Gabbard. n/t

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:47 AM

7. ...

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:47 AM

8. I agree with you

 

I made the argument that Beto has the "it" factor and that his fundraising and excitement gives us the best chance to win. What we see on this website is "We have to have diversity and almost a its our turn mantra. This will play exactly into republican hands.

If we look like we only care about gender and racial politics it will turn off a lot of people. If we look like we are choosing the best candiadte. Look at the comments that if we put up 2 white males then we will lose or we won't have our own women won't come out and support the ticket. That is a temper tantrum.

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Response to Guppy (Reply #8)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:50 AM

12. You are only worried about your own comfort zone.

Oh noes, you might have to vote for a woman in 2020. Temper tantrum indeed.

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Response to MrsCoffee (Reply #12)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:01 PM

29. This is exactly my point

 

You are acting out after I make a simple non offending statement. You take it personally. Like you I probably have been the recipient of as much discrimination as you. My grandmother was arrested for cavorting with the chinese in 1910. ( Ihae the actual article. My dad couldn't swim in the public pools in St. Louis. We were denied a mortgage in 1962 and we had a 50% down payment.

All I hear is Oh Poor me that I might have to vote for a woman. What bullshit.

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Response to Guppy (Reply #29)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:01 PM

32. Yes, everyone is emotional but you my dear.

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Response to MrsCoffee (Reply #32)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:07 PM

37. you prove my point

 

subtle jabs at one. childish

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Response to Guppy (Reply #37)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:08 PM

38. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

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Response to MrsCoffee (Reply #38)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:13 PM

42. wow big tough woman

 

I have done quite well in life. I have owned my own business for 18 years. My parents were tough as nails. We grew up behind a storefront in a laundry. I shared a twin bed with my brother until I was in 4th grade. One thing my parents taught me is to never feel sorry for yourself.

I hear a lot of people feeling sorry for themselves and demanding something that is selfish.

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Response to Guppy (Reply #42)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:00 PM

75. Representation is selfish?

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Response to MrsCoffee (Reply #12)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:02 PM

34. I assume that almost all of us did just that in 2016 nt

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Response to Guppy (Reply #8)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:39 PM

65. Perhaps you should reflect a bit on what you wrote.


"If we look like we only care about gender and racial politics it will turn off a lot of people."

That is a pretty privileged statement right there. Think about it. Why is it only "racial politics" when we are talking about equality for women and people of color. Think about that.

White men represent "the standard" and are judged only by their individual qualities. Women and people of color enter into the conversation with marks against them. Their identities are already considered by White men and they are typically considered good "despite" being a woman or person of color. You are hearing the frustration of 240+ years of having little to no representation of women and people of color in the highest levels of government of what is supposed to be the "greatest, most diverse, and equality promoting society on earth" and you call it a "temper tantrum". You seem to not be able to step into the shoes of women or people of color to see from their perspective how that looks, how it feels to know you represent more than 50% of the population (in the case of women) and more than 40% for people of color, and see nothing like that in the make up of the power structure.

You say Beto has the it factor. He lost. Like Stacey Abrams who had the "it factor" in Georgia and lost by less, like Andrew Gilium who had the "it factor" by coming out of nowhere and almost winning the governorship of Florida. Neither of them are being pushed and promoted to run for President. Why not? They have similar stories and qualifications. Think about that for awhile, then come back and talk about "temper tantrums".

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Response to Caliman73 (Reply #65)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:52 PM

71. Stacey Abrams and Gillum's Positions were not the same as Beto's

Gillum is a mayor which is a municipal level position. Abrams comes closer as a state rep. Neither are federal level, which is of course the highest echelon of our political structure.

Also, Iíve seen Gillum and Abrams mentioned here as 2020 candidates. That didnít offend me at all since Iím in the more the merrier camp. You never know. One of them could get hot. Stranger things have happened. I say we all participate and see what happens. Thatís usually the best way to go.

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:49 AM

9. *sigh*

Because until very recently, American politics, both the good AND the bad, has been a white mans game. Whiteness is both a social construct and an invisible standard.

Erasing diversity but saying you donít care about it is not helpful.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:46 PM

68. Whiteness is a VERY VISIBLE standard.

Not invisible at all. When you have Black children identifying the White doll as pretty, and good, and the doll who looks like them as "ugly" and "naughty", that is a pretty visible standard. We are talking about experiments replicated decades apart while we are trying to say that we have come so far in our attitudes about race.

You are absolutely correct, colorblindness is a privilege of those who aren't "colored" and voting for the "best candidate" when 98% of those who were elected have been White and 100% have been men, is a poke in the eye to "diversity".

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Response to Caliman73 (Reply #68)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:57 PM

74. I think default is a better word

Than invisible at this point in history, but itís so pervasive there is s lot of push back when pointing it out. As evidenced by this thread in fact

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #74)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:02 PM

76. Definitely

Default is a very fitting word.

I was told once by a wise person, "If you do nothing in the US, by default you will grow up Christian, and adhering to the standards of White men."

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:49 AM

10. You miss the point.

It's about representation, not quotas.

And for many, Hillary's gender and Barack's race were additional reasons to vote for them - on life experience as well as policy.

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Response to cilla4progress (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:01 PM

27. Additional, yes but that does not mean that - in total - they would beat all white males

Not to mention, not everyone will rank a set of candidates in the same order ... nor would we rank the importance of issues in the same order. With ANY canddiate, you could come up with something in their life experience that favors them.

Not to mention, remember in 2008 when each side tried to diminish the opponent's difference from white male. There were claims that Obama, who was half white and raised by his white relatives was not "black" enough. Then, there were comments, that while women were often held back, HRC was the First Lady for 8 years, and when her interest was known, no one competed against her in the Democratic primary for Senator. She also was almost immediately considered a likely future President. In 2008, she had BC in her corner. It made an argument that she had a tougher path questionable.

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Response to cilla4progress (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:34 PM

57. For me, race and sex are just two factors I consider.

 

I consider diversity a plus, but not definitive. I think most people think that way. (In other words, I do agree with you).

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:50 AM

11. I agree. But no matter how you phrase it..

Your words are twisted and the narrative is twisted into...you are anti-......

Iím sure the blank will be filled for me.

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Response to LakeArenal (Reply #11)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:05 PM

36. True. A lot of that twisting you refer to is obvious projection.

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:51 AM

13. Thank You -- this is exactly how it should be looked at

In the primary, each of us should vote for the person with whom we agree with on the issues most important to us and/or inspires us as a speaker, as a person etc. Then in the general election, vote for the winner of the Democratic primary because it will likely be true that on every important issue the Democrat will be between acceptable, good and great ... and the Republican will be unacceptable.

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:52 AM

14. I've always voted for policy. I don't give a damn what is between

their legs or the color of their skin.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #14)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:04 PM

35. It's almost as if you're taking an adult approach to your decision.

Rather than a myopic litmus test approach based solely on gender. What a novel idea. More should try it.



clap:

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:54 AM

15. the plain fact of the matter is

that behind that wall of white penises is ALWAYS a plethora of highly qualified women and poc.
women do govern differently. poc do govern differently.

facts. i am basing my decision on facts that we need to govern differently.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #15)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:57 AM

22. Let then push their way through and show us what they got.

 

This party's last two nominees have been 1) A black man and 2) a white woman. I think our party is perfectly happy to nominate and vote for women and POC. I certainly am with the right candidates. Out pf the my current top 4 prospects, only one of them is a white guy.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #22)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:59 AM

23. yeah, sure, the cream rises to the top.

get in the real world.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #15)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 03:28 PM

85. Your "wall of white penises" comment is not to far off...maybe it's time to try something different

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Response to mopinko (Reply #15)

Wed Dec 19, 2018, 11:12 AM

118. edit sorry

meant for someone else

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:54 AM

17. I plan to support my Democratic Party's candidates

... regardless of race or gender.

Just sayin'

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Response to FakeNoose (Reply #17)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:55 AM

18. +1 /nt

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Response to FakeNoose (Reply #17)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:59 AM

26. Pretty sure we all will.

But we get to have spirited discussion about and vote on who that candidate is going to be.

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Response to FakeNoose (Reply #17)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 03:31 PM

86. So do I. But if the primary is between a Democratic man and a Democratic woman,

I'm choosing the woman.

It goes without saying that I will vote for the Democrat in the general.

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:01 PM

30. I am with you. nt

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:09 PM

39. I agree with you.

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:14 PM

44. From a fellow longtime Dem living in AZ ... +1

This.

By the way, you forgot 8 years of being a very involved FLOTUS preceding her tenures as Senator & SoS. She was I believe *THE MOST* qualified candidate to ever run for the office.

And you know what folks? Despite those realities, and on top of all that, having the highest possible name recognition ... She did NOT 'win'.

Saying 'she won' because she won the popular vote is like saying your NFL team won because they scored 3TD/XP for 21 points, when the other team kicked 8 FG's for 24 points. You got more TD's, but you didn't WIN. Them's ain't the rules.

Yes she got f'd over by Donald and Russia and Comey and the Media and Facebook and all manner of other stuff, she deserved to win, should've won, but she factually ... did not win. Saying she won is silliness.

Point is, if any woman ever had the bona-fides and the smarts and the proven ability and the experience and the money and the organization TO WIN, it was Hillary, 2016.

Ergo, I don't really think we should 'assume' Hillary's 'level of success' in winning 3M more votes, somehow automatically transfers to the NEXT female candidate, just by virtue of gender, as some people seem inclined to do. Just because she did it, as a woman, doesn't mean ANY woman ... could accomplish the same. In fact, you sell her short when you imply that.

A woman, any woman, will face a steeper uphill climb than a man, all other things being equal. It sucks, it's unfair, but it's a reality we MUST practically consider, if for no other reason than the stakes are TOO HIGH this time.

I think I speak for a good many people here when I say ... Trump CANNOT win in 2020, and ALL else ... is de-facto ... Secondary.

Now, if the Pubbies drop Trump and magically nominate a, say, Jon Huntsman ... I may become bit more flexible on this subject.

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Response to mr_lebowski (Reply #44)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:40 PM

59. you are correct that women face a steeper uphill climb than men,

 

but accepting that reality is not an option.

If the Democratic party does not fight for equality, who will?

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Response to MariePinchon (Reply #59)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:41 PM

82. A male who's shown solid and unequivocable support for women's issues

Will suffice for ME, given the expected stakes in 2020. The gender of our nominee is not the end-all be-all when it comes to 'fighting for equality' by our party.

In the even that Trump is gone and the Pubbies have nominated someone who I don't fear will hasten the end of the damn world dramatically like IQ45, I'm prepared to be a little more flexible on making 'the female gender' my most important defining characteristic of the Democratic nominee.

Just speaking for myself, and I'm not saying 'I'm right', it's just how I feel.

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:18 PM

46. I'll vote for the most qualified candidate, like always

Why? Because Iím not a bigot and I can think, process nuance etc. Thatís what adults do.

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:28 PM

54. We've never elected a woman as President, either. NT

 

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:49 PM

60. I voted in the Texas primary and the general election for the best candidate

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 12:55 PM

61. I voted for Obama. I also voted for a black man.

I voted for Obama. I also voted for a black man.

I voted for Clinton. I also voted for a woman.

And "no more white guys" is as oppressive and injurious to both you and I as is a house fly.
You can pretend it's an issue. I won't.

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:27 PM

63. I understand the sentiment.

Where it gets into the heart of the matter is when you talk about "electability arguments. This is in no way a comment on you LongtimeAZDem. I don't know you at all. The problem is that there are way too many people for whom "electability" only means a White man given a women or person of color with the exact same or better qualifications. You cannot have "electability" arguments without taking into account the effects of 400+ years of sexism and racism which have been institutionalized and have permeated the mentality of almost everyone in the country, including women and people of color who have bought into the idea that women and people of color are just inferior.

The struggle for many people of color and women in this country is that we want to see people in power who represent us, who look like us, and understand our experiences. The Presidency and most of the history of Congress have been representative of the experience of White Christian men. In 240+ years we have had exactly one Black man as President and one woman as Speaker of the House. One of the most qualified women to ever run for office was attacked mercilessly for the affairs of her husband while the idiot who stumbled into the White House was nowhere near as scrutinized for his own well known history of affairs. Hillary carried around the stain of Bill's actions and for Trump it did not matter.

The phrase "who can win" is the operative phrase and is problematic for the reasons I stated above. You have Avenatti talking about "It has to be a White man". You have people talking up Joe Biden (who I like but...) who has not been able to make it out of a primary. We as a nation have to continue to ask ourselves why it is only women and people of color who are routinely scrutinized about their ability to win. It isn't the candidate it is the society that is reflected in those calculations.

I totally agree regarding the blanket statements like "too many penises" and the like. Candidates should not be rejected out of hand based on their gender, in either direction. Those statements are typically out of frustration and likely indicate, poorly, the frustration and sentiment I shared earlier about wanting the candidate to actually represent an experience of a historically marginalized group.

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 05:08 PM

94. I base my vote...

.... first and foremost on who I believe to be the most qualified person to hold the position. It's just common sense and logic. There is no rational argument otherwise. If you vote for Kamala Harris, you should vote for her because you believe she is the most qualified person for the job who happens to be a person of color and a woman. If you vote for Cory Booker, you should vote for him because you feel he is the most qualified person for the job who happens to be a person of color and a man, and likewise for every person mounting a campaign for the nomination.

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 07:49 PM

98. Among Democrats, being a woman weighs a LOT.

The experience of coming of age as a woman in this country, especially for older women, means having struggled through unequal standards in school, discrimination in work, sexual harassment, fear for physical safety, economic realities of motherhood, childcare and divorce, and the next level of disdain for the woman of age who championed and fought for other women and children along the way.

THAT is what I want, at long last. I'm not sure there will be another in my lifetime.

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 10:40 PM

102. I vote for what's between their legs and the hue of their skin. Every time. nt

 

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 11:33 PM

107. Well said! +1!!!

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2018, 01:00 AM

109. You did vote for a woman, but that's not why you voted for her...

I get what you're saying.

What I have a hard time understanding is why it's so important to separate part of a candidates identity from the rest of themselves. Their life experience whether it's as a woman, man, white, black, gay or whatever the case may be is a part of who they are and their identity.

We should be looking at the whole of a person, both personally and professionally, when making these decisions.

President Obama was a great president partly because of his own personal life experience as a black man, how it shaped him and how he became a great man of character. Take his color away and it changes the kind of person he is at a fundamental level.

How I choose a candidate is far more than ideology, political stance and voting record.

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2018, 11:16 AM

119. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way

We've had nothing but men for president throughout history. But when women say it's time for a woman for president, you think that's not okay. It's simply been a random accident that men keep getting elected. We just have to wait for a qualified and electable woman to finally turn up in the random electable lottery someday, even though it's been a man for over 200 years now.

There is no logic in that whatsoever. If the results are the same every time, you don't keep doing things the same way but expect a different result. If you want a different outcome, you have to change it up. In other words, if you genuinely want a woman for president, you have to actively seek out change after hundreds of years of nothing but men. You have to actively seek out women and vote for them, with intention. The point isn't that qualification doesn't matter. The point is that there ARE women who are qualified.

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