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Thu Dec 6, 2018, 09:27 AM

The fact GM is shifting production to Mexico is not just for labor costs, missing in the media

reports or mentioned in passing was a key element of the corporate decision...to shift to Electric Venicles, zero emission,

Combine that with plunging oil prices, which are GOOD for the economy, all asshateery analysis of right wing hand-wringers and their media lackeys aside, AND OPEC's desperate ploys and imminent demise and I say....

There is a revolution afoot and the isolated and cornered Republican Party of America is just a road bump in the path.

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Reply The fact GM is shifting production to Mexico is not just for labor costs, missing in the media (Original post)
Fred Sanders Dec 6 OP
Zoonart Dec 6 #1
Demsrule86 Dec 6 #14
Historic NY Dec 6 #31
Demsrule86 Dec 6 #41
TheFarseer Dec 6 #33
Demsrule86 Dec 6 #43
Recursion Dec 6 #34
Demsrule86 Dec 6 #39
GulfCoast66 Dec 6 #37
Demsrule86 Dec 6 #38
GulfCoast66 Dec 6 #42
Fred Sanders Dec 7 #49
GulfCoast66 Dec 7 #57
lostnfound Dec 6 #2
lostnfound Dec 6 #3
brush Dec 6 #9
watoos Dec 6 #16
Hortensis Dec 7 #55
Pobeka Dec 6 #6
DeminPennswoods Dec 7 #54
lostnfound Dec 7 #56
DeminPennswoods Dec 7 #59
Cicada Dec 6 #4
Mr.Bill Dec 6 #5
Moostache Dec 6 #8
Fred Sanders Dec 7 #50
rurallib Dec 6 #7
Fred Sanders Dec 7 #51
Dorn Dec 6 #10
JCMach1 Dec 6 #15
SHRED Dec 6 #20
SHRED Dec 6 #19
Blue_true Dec 6 #24
SHRED Dec 6 #35
Blue_true Dec 6 #46
Fred Sanders Dec 7 #52
Scruffy1 Dec 6 #23
Blue_true Dec 6 #25
elmac Dec 6 #11
Fred Sanders Dec 7 #53
Honeycombe8 Dec 6 #12
Demsrule86 Dec 6 #13
people Dec 6 #18
MichMan Dec 6 #28
turbinetree Dec 6 #17
Hulk Dec 6 #21
MichMan Dec 6 #29
Hulk Dec 6 #36
misanthrope Dec 6 #47
Blue_true Dec 6 #22
former9thward Dec 6 #27
Blue_true Dec 6 #30
delisen Dec 6 #32
former9thward Dec 6 #45
delisen Dec 6 #48
Power 2 the People Dec 6 #26
harumph Dec 6 #40
Demsrule86 Dec 6 #44
Liberal In Texas Dec 7 #58

Response to Fred Sanders (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 09:33 AM

1. THIS!

We are in the midst of a global paradigm shift and the dinosaurs in the thoroughly corrupt Republican party will never come along. We just have top leave them at the side of the road and move into the future.

As the BUddhists say... "Embrace change before it embraces you."

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Response to Zoonart (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 11:15 AM

14. I will never accept that 'good' change puts American workers out of a job while giving jobs to

workers in other countries...auto jobs are good paying jobs...something we can't afford to lose. We need jobs in this country and the exodus of both manufacturing jobs and white collar jobs needs to stop...tariff GM on every foreign made car.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #14)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:03 PM

31. Jeez no one has said anything about Fords manuvering....

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Response to Historic NY (Reply #31)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 02:39 PM

41. I know.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #14)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:10 PM

33. Right

Electric cars and SUVs have nothing to do with GM shifting production to Mexico. And to celebrate outsourcing because it proves something about the GOP or hurts OPEC or something is really misguided.

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Response to TheFarseer (Reply #33)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 02:40 PM

43. Exactly right. We need jobs or all the good things like Medicare and social security...go

away...no jobs then no benefits.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #14)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:13 PM

34. Auto jobs *were* good paying jobs, 50 years ago

The UAW has been accepting two-tier contracts since the 1980s, meaning that most of the workers under retirement age are in the cheaper tier.

There's nothing magical about auto manufacturing, or manufacturing in general. If we were facing some kind of jobs shortage I might worry, but the opposite is the case right now.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #34)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 02:31 PM

39. Not true...my son make $30.00 an hour ...he was hired five years ago.

He works for GM.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #14)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:44 PM

37. Hey, your a tariff man!

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #37)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 02:30 PM

38. If done correctly, you bet. Trump is too dumb to use this tool effectively.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #38)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 02:40 PM

42. We often agree Demsrule, but not here.

The argument of tariffs remind me about the saying communist always use...it has just not been done correctly.

President Obama was working with the EU to develop a unified front against the abuses of China using existing trade regulating agreements. Which of course might have led to uniform action against China. If that is what you mean by tariffs then we might not disagree all that much. Although in the face of a unified effort I think China would have negotiated honestly. We will never know.

However, unilateral Tariffs cause mutual pain.

But of course, well meaning and sincere folks can and do sometimes disagree on issues.

Have a good afternoon.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #42)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 07:23 AM

49. Blaming China as he boogeyman is yet another ploy of Western business media, seems all is fsir

in love, war and trade, isn't that the way Americans have always done it? Now comes along a new nation and new superpower who does the same only better...and the corporate handwringing is off the charts.

Big old lol from me on that one!

The business, banker, hedge fund and most of the Western political world are not angry or afraid of Xhina and its economic miracle, it is merely very very jealous.

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Response to Fred Sanders (Reply #49)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 08:03 AM

57. I can't diagree at all

I was in China 2 years ago. Their big cities have to be seen to be believed.

And say what you want about their repressive government. And it is repressive. But the life and standard of living of the average person in China has improved tremendously over the past 2 decades. Americans canít really say the same.

And the people there are very, very proud of their accomplishments. We push them too hard at our peril.

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Response to Fred Sanders (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 09:44 AM

2. GOP tax bill cut taxes on foreign production, driving US plant closures

I heard Sherrod ?Brown discuss it, something about tax cuts being related to GM plant closures. I found this:

The corporate rate on both US and foreign profits used to be 35% (although tax breaks regularly reduced the actual tax rate companies would pay). Starting this year, however, the US corporate tax rate on domestic profits is 21%, while the foreign tax rate is just 10.5%. Not only that, they also get to subtract foreign taxes paid from what they have to pay the US government. So if they pay more than 10.5% to a foreign government, they will pay no US taxes at all on their foreign profits. Itís estimated the corporate tax reduction alone will cost $1.3 trillion over the next decade, and encourage corporations to focus on overseas production in order to avoid American taxes.
https://patrioticmillionaires.org/2018/11/30/gm-layoffs-result-of-trump-tax-plan/

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Response to lostnfound (Reply #2)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 09:48 AM

3. Sherrod Brown saying tax bill drove plant closures. WHY ARENT ALL DEMS TALKING ABOUT THIS?

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/27/sherrod-brown-tax-bill-gm-layoffs-990418

I heard it said once on TV by Sherrod, no one else is dissecting it.

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Response to lostnfound (Reply #3)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 11:03 AM

9. In other words, the repug tax scam gutted thousands of American jobs out or our system.

Paul Ryan dreamed of that tax cut since he was an adolescent and he sold out American workers' jobs to do it.

And auto companies won't be the only wants taking advantage of the huge tax clause in the bill if they move jobs out of the country.

Repug recession here we come.

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Response to lostnfound (Reply #3)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 11:22 AM

16. It's not the narrative.

All of the M$M is right wing corporate controlled.

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Response to lostnfound (Reply #3)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 07:42 AM

55. The tax heist's GILTI provision allowing corporations

to declare losses in the U.S. and accept the 10.5% tax rate imposed on overseas income is also one of many means intended to, not just transfer our nation's power and wealth up an increasingly hierarchical ruling class structure while shifting increasing share of the costs of running our nation to the working classes, but also to bankrupt what they like to call the "welfare state," or what we call things like Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance.

"The GILTI provision, meant to discourage multinational corporations from avoiding U.S. taxes by holding intangible assets such as software patents abroad in low-tax countries, imposes an effective 10.5 percent tax rate on income from tax havens." GILTI, all right.

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Response to lostnfound (Reply #2)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 10:52 AM

6. I heard it too from Sherrod Brown. It needs repeating -- and often! n/t

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Response to lostnfound (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 07:37 AM

54. Actually, everyone gets to deduct foreign income taxes

It's just that the vast majority of Americans don't have to deduct. Just check out your last year's 1040 and you'll see a box for "foreign taxes paid". If you get 1099 forms, foregin taxes paid will be listed in one of the boxes.

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Response to DeminPennswoods (Reply #54)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 07:48 AM

56. That's true but connection to drop in overall rate. 22% to 11% is much more than half

Previously if a US company producing abroad had a 22% tax rate but paid 15% in taxes abroad, they would get credit for what they paid and still end up owing the U.S. government 7%.

Now it would be zero.

So the impact of the date drop is dramatically different that one would think, because of the deductibility of foreign tax.

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Response to lostnfound (Reply #56)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 01:20 PM

59. Yep, I see your point

Only pointing out that deducting foreign taxes paid isn't just limited to businesses.

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Response to Fred Sanders (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 09:55 AM

4. Steel and aluminum is tariff free in Mexico

China is already the biggest car market and it will grow, double at least. It is not likely China will tag Mexican made goods with retaliatory tariffs. Also Mexican auto components shipped to the US must use high wage workers. In Mexico GM can pay the 50% cheaper prevailing wages. And as mentioned the Trump tax bill for some firms, GM included, provides a 50% tax break for foreign production. Trump is driving production abroad. Others will follow GM.

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Response to Fred Sanders (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 10:52 AM

5. Trump will never have any credibility in this area

until he stops manufacturing his own products outside the USA.

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Response to Mr.Bill (Reply #5)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 10:58 AM

8. There is no qualifier for Trump and credibility...

He could move all of his businesses into the lower 48 tomorrow and he would STILL retain negative credibility for the remainder of time!

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Response to Mr.Bill (Reply #5)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 07:25 AM

50. The only shred he still holds because of thst is because the corporate media thst also

manufactures its news in a foreign land it seems ignores it.

Your observation is so true it hurts.

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Response to Fred Sanders (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 10:54 AM

7. Kick - people need to see this thread

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Response to rurallib (Reply #7)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 07:29 AM

51. 100kw solar packs with invertor, plug and play is going for 200 bucks now.

There is nothing gasoline can do that a battery can not, except maybe fly a plane.


Soon your home may be powered by a battery, for sure your neighbourhood will have a battery pack.

Companies are just getting ahead of the sharply descending curve, I say.

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Response to Fred Sanders (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 11:09 AM

10. RE electric cars: where is the electricity going to come from. Power plants take 5+ years to build

I'm all for electric cars, taxing SUVs, increasing gas millage, reducing CO2, etc. But we can't switch to electric cars as quickly as Detroit can build them.

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Response to Dorn (Reply #10)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 11:18 AM

15. Trust the market here

Alternative is exploding all over. Florida companies are putting in massive new solar farms for example.

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Response to JCMach1 (Reply #15)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 11:51 AM

20. Unfortunately

Centralized energy production no matter "green" or not is far inferior to rooftop solar.

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Response to Dorn (Reply #10)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 11:49 AM

19. Rooftop solar

That would be the ultimate.

Greener than so-called "green energy" from centralized power production.
Creates more good paying jobs than centralized power.
Liberates consumers from the ever increasing electricity rate.

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Response to SHRED (Reply #19)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 12:38 PM

24. Endangers people who don't know to stay away from dicking with DC to AC converters.

When the hot water is not hot enough. There are safety arguments for centralized power generation, but companies can't be allowed to profiteer.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #24)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:21 PM

35. Really?

My daughter has PV panels and a reversible meter.
No problem and no bill.

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Response to SHRED (Reply #35)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 08:33 PM

46. PV produces DC.

To have it work for a modern house, there must be a DC to AC conversion unit, that is where the danger lies for people that mess around with it and don't know what they are doing.

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Response to SHRED (Reply #19)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 07:30 AM

52. Shred, rooftop generating power for an electric car is going to be the killer app of the century.

Musk is a genius, I love geniuses, spending on battery tech and factories is another of his genus moves.

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Response to Dorn (Reply #10)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 12:37 PM

23. I don't think capacity is a problem.

Power companies have to build for peak demand which is mostly daytime hours and early evening. Charging at night shouldn't be too much of a hurdle. As a matter of fact I think a case could be made for the extra off peak usage making the grid more effecient as currently the power companies have to fire up more plants just to handle the daytime peak and rae not needed overnight. 120 volt chargers come in 8 and 12 amp chargers come in 8 and 12 amp models, which is comparable to a small and large window air conitioner. The 220 volt chargers are ariund 30 amps which are equivalent to a clothes dryer. I am sure power companies are looking and planning for changes in consumption down the road.
The UK is using small pre-built gas plants to bridge the gap in renewables. Interesting article on this at https://www.ft.com/content/ba6bd46a-1d75-11e8-956a-43db76e69936. And of course wind and solar power can be incrased rather quickly, comapred to a large nuke.
The price of home solar continues to drop. I get my solar from a co-op and am 100% solar.The price for a grid tied solar power system seems to be dropping rapidly and I currently see quotes under $4 per kilowatt installed. If you can buy a new car,then adding the price of the solar power is pretty much a no brainer in my opinion, since it could show a healthy return on investment.
Of course, electric cars won't fix our car problem. We need better public transportation.

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Response to Scruffy1 (Reply #23)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 12:40 PM

25. If every has a EV and charge at night, that time period power demand will explode.

The model that you stated is wrong, a model with level high demand across 24 hours is more accurate.

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Response to Fred Sanders (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 11:10 AM

11. low oil prices are great for consumers but many red states depend on higher prices

to support their industry. They will be begging tRump for subsidies like the farmers got.

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Response to elmac (Reply #11)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 07:33 AM

53. I get it, but it s the same argument made just before the steel factories closed and yet

now unemployment is at historical lows. Go figure.

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Response to Fred Sanders (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 11:10 AM

12. It's just the opposite, what I heard on media: GM is NOT going to push EV. Plus, TAX INCENTIVES.

A big part of this story is the new tax cuts bill that was passed still includes TAX INCENTIVES to move jobs out of the country.

As for electric vehicles, some politician in that state was decrying the fact that GM is not pursuing electric vehicles, which the politician saw as the future of vehicles. Maybe he meant that GM wasn't going to pursue them here, but in Mexico instead? GM's plan is to drop many sedans and concentrate on SUVs and other bigger selling vehicles, as Americans shift their preferences increasingly toward those non-sedan vehicles.


1. Labor costs
2. Tariffs that Trump passed (cost GM $2 Billion)
3. Tax incentives in the new tax cuts bill
4. Electric vehicles

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Response to Fred Sanders (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 11:12 AM

13. So part of the 'good' news is we lose jobs...sorry not buying that...GM sucks to do this and

should be ashamed. We need to make electrical cars here...there is no good news on this...and put me in the category as a Democratic hand wringer...a message like this will surely lose the Midwest to the next fast talking Republican.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #13)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 11:38 AM

18. Building Electric Vehicles Here

Trump, the dinasaur idiot, is ending all incentives to build electric cars. Meanwhile, in Europe they have a goal of switching to all electric vehicles in the coming years. U.S. auto manufacturers and Trump are stupid when they do not do the same. Our technology could switch if that is what the government wanted. Big oil, though, wants our money where it is - paying for oil (gasoline), etc. Putting Americans out of work and, at the same time, increasing pollution and adding to climate change (while further enriching the 1%) is just BAD.

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Response to people (Reply #18)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 12:56 PM

28. Gas taxes in Europe are substantually higher than here

Making gas cost around $7 per gallon encouraging consumer to buy electric cars and use mass transit

Maybe that is the kind of forward thinking we need politicians promoting here

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Response to Fred Sanders (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 11:25 AM

17. I firmly believe in what John Trudell said

- Santee Dakota activist, artist, and poet (1946-2015) : I am not looking to overthrow the American government, the corporate state already has.


The corporate state already has...........................

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Response to Fred Sanders (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 12:32 PM

21. Might I say again....MEXICANS BUY THE CARS!! Americans don't.

Honestly, this seems to be the silent fact...the Mexican roads are probably 40-50% small American cars. Try estimating the US market for small US cars....non-existent almost.

Why wouldnít they produce them where the demand is! This drives me nuts.

What we should be doing in the ďgreatĒ country of ours is introducing new jobs into the Midwest. Granted, California and the East Coast are the high tech centers in the world. Couldnít some of that industry be set up in these dying communities?? Solar for sure...chip production, research and development. If you think they donít have the educated or trained work force, then you havenít been to the areas that do have...they are transplanted from all across the country, the world. A drive through the Nike campus, the adidas campus, the high tech plants in Portland, Oregon are mixed with THOUSANDS of Indians and other nationalities, and young people from all over the US.

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Response to Hulk (Reply #21)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 12:57 PM

29. Except that they big three alll manufacture big pickup trucks in Mexico

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Response to MichMan (Reply #29)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:21 PM

36. ...and they purchase pick ups as well

Point was, the small US cars are not purchased in the US. Mexico uses probably more pick ups per capital than anywhere in North America.

I see trucks hauling new Freightliner and other new 18 wheeler chassis north on the freeways in a steady stream....not pick ups or small cars.

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Response to Hulk (Reply #21)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 08:51 PM

47. Good point

Americans are too busy destroying the environment at faster rates to be worried about things like fuel economy or efficiency. Auto industry-wide, SUVs' market share has risen from 32 percent in 2012 to 46 percent in 2018. Pick-up trucks have increased market share as well.

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Response to Fred Sanders (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 12:33 PM

22. Electric vehicles can never be zero emission.

They can concentrate emissions at single points. I tried to explain about a week ago, unless we go to 100% clean energy (wind, solar, yet not invented), more people using EVs will WORSEN total emissions, but concentrate them at confined locations (the power plants) instead of highly distributed locations (gas or diesel powered cars everywhere).

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #22)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 12:42 PM

27. Why are you ignoring nuclear power in your list?

There are no greenhouse gas emissions from nuclear plants. I know there is an anti-science phobia about nuclear plants but they are presently the cleanest source of energy.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #27)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 12:58 PM

30. You make a valid point. But eventhough nukes don't generate emissions, there is the issue of spent

fuel rods storage or recycling. So it too have issues. But you are right, it should be in the clean single point power source mix along with solar and wind and an as yet not invented clean energy technology.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #27)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:04 PM

32. We have no viable long range disaster plan for nuclear.


they are therefore the most dangerous to survival of human race just at a time when we are facing climate pressures that may dis-establish many governments.

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Response to delisen (Reply #32)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 04:11 PM

45. They seem to have no problem with them in Europe or elsewhere

Last edited Thu Dec 6, 2018, 07:32 PM - Edit history (2)

Have they figured them out and we can't? I don't think so.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #45)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 11:34 PM

48. Europe actively moving away from nuclear in many European countries

From Wikipedia


Following the Fukushima nuclear disaster, Germany has permanently shut down eight of its reactors and pledged to close the rest by 2022;[33] but difficulties, costs and subsequent critics of planned energy transition could potentially harm this policy.[34][35] Italy voted twice, in 1987 to make more difficult to build new plants (the vote was extensively interpreted by following governments as a total repeal of nuclear power plants, leading to the sudden shut down of all Italian operating reactors within few years), and in 2011 to keep their country non-nuclear.[36] Switzerland and Spain have banned the construction of new reactors.[37] Belgium is considering phasing out its nuclear plants.[37] France, frequently heralded as a nuclear commercial model for the world, was as of 2011 locked in a national debate over a partial nuclear phase-out.[37] In the same time, however, Sweden embraced a nuclear phase-out policy as early as 1980, so preceding all these countries; but only the two oldest reactors, of twelve, were shut down at their end of life; while in 2010 Swedish Parliament repealed this policy.[38]


Eight German nuclear power reactors (Biblis A and B, Brunsbuettel, Isar 1, Kruemmel, Neckarwestheim 1, Philippsburg 1 and Unterweser) were permanently shutdown on 6 August 2011, following the Japanese Fukushima nuclear disaster.[39]
As said, the 2011 Japanese Fukushima nuclear disaster has led some European energy officials to re-think about nuclear power generation, above all in Germany and Switzerland. Switzerland has abandoned plans to replace its old nuclear reactors and will take the last one offline in 2034. Anti-nuclear opposition intensified in Germany. In the following months the government decided to shut down eight reactors immediately (6 August 2011) and to have the other nine off the grid by the end of 2022. Renewable energy in Germany is believed to be able to compensate for much of the loss. In September 2011 Siemens, which had been responsible for constructing all 17 of Germany's existing nuclear power plants, announced that it would exit the nuclear sector following the Fukushima disaster and the subsequent changes to German energy policy. Chief executive Peter Loescher has supported the German government's planned Energiewende, its transition to renewable energy technologies, calling it a "project of the century" and saying Berlin's target of reaching 35% renewable energy sources by 2020 was feasible.[4

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Response to Fred Sanders (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 12:40 PM

26. Interesting

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Response to Fred Sanders (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 02:36 PM

40. electric cars can be made anywhere - they're actually simpler

in many ways than your run of the mill internal combustion vehicle. Ever looked at the
layout of an electric vehicle? Sure the battery tech is complicated - but the engineering
after that is simple.

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Response to harumph (Reply #40)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 02:42 PM

44. That doesn't mean that for our benefit they should not be made right here.

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Response to Fred Sanders (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 08:14 AM

58. Just bought a plug-in hybrid. Made in Korea.

I've been trying for almost 10 years to get a plug-in SUV that wasn't some big land yacht (and also affordable) and that was made in the US. When I would ask GM reps at various car shows when I could expect one all they could do was point to the Volt. Now the Volt is nice if you want a car. I need the capacity that an SUV gives for the work I do.

Frankly the US car makers have shot themselves in the foot by not making EV pickups and SUVs.

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