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Wed Dec 5, 2018, 09:00 PM

All the presidents at the Bush funeral service together recited this core prayer. Except one.

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/All-the-presidents-at-the-Bush-funeral-service-13445686.php

The Apostles' Creed is one of the prayers most core to Christianity. It states in a few lines the basic narrative of Jesus' life, is the statement of faith in one God, and is said daily by Christians across the globe.

On Wednesday, one Christian didn't say it. And Twitter noticed.

Video from the funeral of former President George H.W. Bush showed a front row of presidents at the Washington National Cathedral, standing and reciting it along with the program, as the voice of Episcopal Bishop Michael Curry boomed through the speakers to the thousands of mourners. Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, Barack Obama and their wives glanced up and down from the programs they held in front of them and spoke the prayer, along with everyone else visible in the video. The program, as is typical, calls for the prayer to be said in unison.

President Donald Trump stood, with his hands folded in front of him, waist-high, the program in his left hand, his lips not moving. Melania Trump also did not speak, nor did she hold a program.

Social media, left to right, pounced. The faith and values of Trump have been a source of debate, division, anger and mystery since his run for the presidency began - and especially since many religious conservatives embraced him, despite what critics say is his dishonesty, philandering, crudeness and policies many see as anti-Christian.

Theories (primarily of the snarky variety) poured forth on Twitter.

But mixed in within disgust was a small voice raising a controversial question: Maybe Trump doesn't believe the Creed, and therefore shouldn't say it? This was quickly answered by others noting that Trump says he is a Christian, often praises faith in God and characterizes himself as a friend of the faithful.

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Reply All the presidents at the Bush funeral service together recited this core prayer. Except one. (Original post)
Demovictory9 Dec 5 OP
msongs Dec 5 #1
SunSeeker Dec 5 #14
RockRaven Dec 5 #2
patricia92243 Dec 5 #4
FirstLight Dec 5 #7
vlyons Dec 5 #3
Demit Dec 5 #8
The Velveteen Ocelot Dec 5 #9
Nay Dec 6 #32
fishwax Dec 7 #39
phleshdef Dec 5 #12
StarryNite Dec 6 #25
GaYellowDawg Dec 7 #38
phleshdef Dec 7 #40
Kaleva Dec 5 #13
Mariana Dec 6 #23
Kaleva Dec 6 #27
Mariana Dec 6 #28
regnaD kciN Dec 5 #15
Blue Owl Dec 5 #5
Mariana Dec 6 #22
Fullduplexxx Dec 5 #6
pnwmom Dec 5 #19
cynatnite Dec 5 #10
jberryhill Dec 5 #16
cynatnite Dec 5 #17
pnwmom Dec 5 #20
dalton99a Dec 6 #24
still_one Dec 6 #30
Ilsa Dec 5 #11
TomSlick Dec 5 #18
pnwmom Dec 5 #21
TomSlick Dec 6 #33
pnwmom Dec 6 #34
marylandblue Dec 6 #26
still_one Dec 6 #29
pnwmom Dec 6 #35
still_one Dec 7 #41
eShirl Dec 6 #31
pnwmom Dec 6 #36
yortsed snacilbuper Dec 7 #37
Cha Dec 7 #42

Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 09:08 PM

1. yeah let's force everyone to practice the christian religion...not nt

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Response to msongs (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 09:31 PM

14. This isn't about forcing anyone to do anything. This is about what a FRAUD Trump is.

Geez


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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 09:08 PM

2. If you think Christianity is a bunch of bunk, not participating in their rituals isn't a scandal.

But Trump claims to be a Christian. Only that lie makes his not reciting a prayer anything worth noting.

Kind of like his supposed reverence for the Star Spangled Banner -- as articulated during his NFL/Kaepernick rants -- whose words he clearly does not know based on his bumble-f*cked lip movements the past few times I've seen him on TV when it is being played.

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Response to RockRaven (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 09:13 PM

4. Bingo!

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Response to RockRaven (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 09:21 PM

7. exactly...

Even if I was not baptized or maybe considered myself an athiest...I kind of see it as a basic form of respect when attending something like this. It's not just your grandpa's funeral, it's a STATE event and that would demand a certain amount of decorum from our POTUS (then again, when has drumpf had any decorum for that matter)

Also, since he claims he is a Christian when it suits him AND uses terms like "God Bless America" etc in speeches...he should toe the line and at least TRY to act normal...

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 09:11 PM

3. I am so tired of people complaining about the Apostles Nicene creed

Maybe he doesn't believe in a Virgin birth or impregnation by a Holy Spirit, whatever that is? Maybe he doesn't believe in a physical place, where Jesus visited the dead for 3 days. I don't believe that stuff either, and I'm not going to recite the creed. Trump stood respectfully, while others recited the creed that they believe in. That is really all that is required in decent society.

And who are we to pass judgement on someone's religious practice or not? Trump's religious hypocracy or not is certainly none of my business. Surely we can find more important things to criticize, like failure to do anything about climate change?

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Response to vlyons (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 09:24 PM

8. Your president's hypocrisy isn't any of your business?

Oh wait, you said his *religious* hypocrisy isn't important. So other hypocrisies might be? How do you make your determinations? It sounds like a fascinating process.

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Response to vlyons (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 09:25 PM

9. It wouldn't be worth mentioning except for the fact that Tiny claims to be

a practicing Christian, and the Apostle's Creed states the core beliefs of Christianity. A large part of his base is comprised of evangelical Christians, and so he claims to be one of them and courts the endorsement of fundamentalist clergy. I couldn't care less what his personal beliefs are (I suspect that his only god is himself), but if he wants to play at being a Christian in order to pander to his base, you'd think he'd at least go through the motions at a public event watched by millions.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #9)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 07:29 AM

32. Yeah, but that would require he learn a couple of hymns and the Apostle's Creed so

he could sing/recite them. TOO MUCH WORK.

And he, of course, should never have to strain himself in any way, certainly not for the peasants.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 12:11 AM

39. plenty of evangelicals don't say the apostles creed

in fact, evangelicals are often critical of the notion of reciting any creeds at all. They are concerned that the adoption/recitation of a creed is a displacement of the bible.

Lots of Christians recite the creed. Lots of Christians don't. Trump is an immoral charlatan regardless of whether he says the creed or not.

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Response to vlyons (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 09:31 PM

12. He isn't just claiming to be a Christian. He is using it as a political tool.

Therefore, yes it is my business.

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #12)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 02:03 AM

25. Yes! Exactly!

He is using it as a political tool and that should offend both Christians and non Christians.

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #12)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 12:06 AM

38. Well...

He isn't just claiming to be a Christian. He is using it as a political tool.


Hell, that just makes him the average Republican.

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Response to GaYellowDawg (Reply #38)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 02:32 AM

40. Yep.

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Response to vlyons (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 09:31 PM

13. many of Trump's most ardent supporters are right wing Christians.

He wouldn't be president if he didn't play the "devout Christian" card.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #13)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 12:20 AM

23. Yes, and they don't care one little bit that he didn't recite.

Seriously, do any of the many flavors of Christianity require this? How many denominations say you can't be a Christian unless you recite the Apostle's creed when you're at a funeral? I suspect the number is zero.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #23)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 03:40 AM

27. One can expect a purported Christian, Trump, to pay at least lip service to the...

Christian views and customs of the deceased.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #27)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 04:04 AM

28. That may be what you expect.

We have known for years that Trump's Christian supporters have very low expectations when it comes to his behavior. This is not going to bother them at all. Members of those denominations that do not recite this will hold it in his favor that he remained silent. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Franklin Graham or one of his clones advised Trump to do exactly what he did.

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Response to vlyons (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 09:49 PM

15. I'm tired of people complaining about the Declaration Of Independence Constitution, too...

(The Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed are two separate documents.)

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 09:14 PM

5. Waiting for Pat Robertson, Franklin Graham, and Jimmy Baker to weigh in...

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Response to Blue Owl (Reply #5)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 12:12 AM

22. They probably advised Trump to do exactly what he did. nt.

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 09:21 PM

6. Trump has said he is a great christian ... if he is he should have known this

Not surprising though that some who will find fault with everything trump does dont have a problem with trump treating religion like he does everything else .

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Response to Fullduplexxx (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 11:48 PM

19. He wouldn't have to know it. The words are on the paper in his hand. n/t

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 09:25 PM

10. I grew up Baptist and we never said it in church at all...

I wouldn't know it unless it was in front of me or why I was even saying it, to be honest.

Some people just don't speak or sing in church. It was never a thing in our denomination.

This isn't a big deal.

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #10)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:01 PM

16. Ever heard of Jimmy and Rosalyn Carter?


You know... the two evangelicals at the other end of the pew?

Trump professes to be a Presbyterian and the Apostles Creed is a basic element of both liberal and conservative Presbyterian denominations.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #16)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:40 PM

17. I'm not sure what the point is...

Some people do speak and sing and some don't no matter their beliefs.

I think we could look at other facets of tRump's behavior which are more demonstrable as to his hypocrisy and lack of Christian traits.

Not reciting words along with the crowd just isn't it.

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #10)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 11:49 PM

20. He had all the words on the paper in his hand. And he grew up Presbyterian,

so it would be normal for him to say it in Church.

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #10)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:05 AM

24. It's a thing with Catholics, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists et al

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #10)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 06:35 AM

30. That is an excellent point, and a Jewish person would not be reciting this creed either.

Standing out of respect during the service is appropriate, but condemning someone for not speaking or singing during the service is nonesense

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 09:27 PM

11. Trump will say that he gets other people to say it for him.

I doubt he recognized it, and he can't read. Melania told the Pope that she is Catholic. I'm surprised she didn't say it.

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 11:44 PM

18. I wonder if the Creed was printed in the Order of Worship.

Bill Clinton and the Carters are Baptist. (Hillary is a Methodist.) Baptist do not recite any creed in worship services - most would not be able to recite the Apostle's Creed from memory. Trump claims to be a Presbyterian and should be able to recite the Creed from memory.

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Response to TomSlick (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 11:50 PM

21. Yes, it was printed. Everyone else was reading from their copies.

Different Churches have slightly different variations, so it would be smart to read it, rather than just relying on memory.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #21)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 11:36 PM

33. Thanks.

That makes me wonder. If Trump claims to be a Presbyterian, why would he not read the Creed?

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Response to TomSlick (Reply #33)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 11:48 PM

34. That was my thought. Why would he REFUSE to read the Creed

that's used in his own Church?

The answer's pretty obvious.

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 02:38 AM

26. In Catcher in the Rye, Holden recalls a sermon given by a funeral director

In the speech, he said that Jesus was his friend and he talked to him all the time, even while driving. And Holden thought, "I just see the big phony bastard shifting into first gear and asking Jesus to send him a few more stiffs."

Just like Trump. Except Trump has a chauffeur.

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 06:20 AM

29. This is a disturbing story. It reminds me of the pressure put on students in public schools if they

wouldn't participate in the morning "prayer"

I wonder what would happen if there was a Jewish person of notarity there, and didn't recite this Christian apostles creed? Would they condemn that person also.

There are plenty of things to be critical of trump on, but this is not one of them.

Standing during the service out of respect is appropriate, but not kneeling, and reciting a creed, which as I understand it not all Christian denominations follow.

Let's condemn someone for not saying:

"I believe in God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried; he descended to the dead."

Perhaps the rack would be an appropriate punishment.














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Response to still_one (Reply #29)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 11:50 PM

35. The difference is that Trump poses as a Presbyterian Christian.

He wins votes on the basis of being a Christian. And yet he refused to join in one of the most basic of his own Church's prayers.

So this isn't comparable to expecting Bernie, for example, to recite the Creed. I don't know anyone who would criticize him for that.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #35)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 04:21 AM

41. No. Whether one says an oath or participates in a funneral service seems to be a more important

criteria to judge whether trump is a "good Christian or a hypocrite", rather than immoral actions and policies makes this criticism even more ridiculous, but not surprising.

There are many people who do NOT actively participate in a religious service, but attend that service. If that is the criteria some use to judge whether one is religious or not, it is a pretty pathetic statement.

You may not know anyone who would criticize someone for not saying the creed or an oath, but growing up in Iowa in the 50's and 60's I saw it first hand. In fact, just being Jewish was enough to be condemned to eternal damnation unless I accepted Jesus as lord and savior, and this was preached in may congregations' in their Sunday sermons. It still is in some.

Your hypothetical example of saying Bernie would not be criticized for not saying the Creed if he was presented that during the service, I wouldn't bet on it. In fact, I would guarantee that he would be criticized from various sides whether he recited it or not.

This is why, and it may be offensive to some, but religion throughout history has demonstrated that it is intolerant to those that don't follow that particular religious script for that denomination.

It is why it is a slippery slope to judge ones religious beliefs based on whether they say an oath or participate in a service.









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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 06:35 AM

31. Never heard of it; we never said it in Quaker Meeting.

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Response to eShirl (Reply #31)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 11:52 PM

36. Trump poses as a Presbyterian, and they say the Apostles Creed. n/t

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 12:05 AM

37. god,

protect me from your followers.

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 04:33 AM

42. One "Christian" should be in quotes..

I mean Really.

Traitortrump is a CINO. And, those believing otherwise are Gaslit to the max.

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