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Sun Dec 2, 2018, 09:23 AM

Neil deGrasse Tyson Responds to Sexual Misconduct Accusations


On Being Accused

NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON∑SATURDAY, DECEMBER 1, 2018

For a variety of reasons, most justified, some unjustified, men accused of sexual impropriety in todayís ďme-tooĒ climate are presumed to be guilty by the court of public opinion. Emotions bypass due-process, people choose sides, and the social media wars begin.

In any claim, evidence matters. Evidence always matters. But what happens when itís just one personís word against anotherís, and the stories donít agree? Thatís when people tend to pass judgment on who is more credible than whom. And thatís when an impartial investigation can best serve the truth Ė and would have my full cooperation to do so.

Iíve recently been publically accused of sexual misconduct. These accusations have received a fair amount of press in the past forty-eight hours, unaccompanied by my reactions. In many cases, itís not the mediaís fault. I declined comment on the grounds that serious accusations should not be adjudicated in the press. But clearly I cannot continue to stay silent. So below I offer my account of each accusation.

The 2009 Incident

I am asked by thousands of people per year to take pictures with them. A flattering, time consuming, but delightful chore. As many in my fan-base can attest, I get almost giddy if I notice youíre wearing cosmic bling Ė clothing or jewelry or tattoos that portray the universe, either scientifically or artistically. And I make it a priority to point out these adornments for the photograph.

A colleague at a well attended, after-conference, social gathering came up to me to ask for a photograph. She was wearing a sleeveless dress with a tattooed solar system extending up her arm. And while I donít explicitly remember searching for Pluto at the top of her shoulder, it is surely something I would have done in that situation. As we all know, I have professional history with the demotion of Pluto, which had occurred officially just three years earlier. So whether people include it or not in their tattoos is of great interest to me. I was reported to have ďgropedĒ her by searching ďup her dressĒ, when this was simply a search under the covered part of her shoulder of the sleeveless dress.

I only just learned (nine years after) that she thought this behavior creepy. That was never my intent and Iím deeply sorry to have made her feel that way. Had I been told of her discomfort in the moment, I would have offered this same apology eagerly, and on the spot. In my mindís eye, Iím a friendly and accessible guy, but going forward, I can surely be more sensitive to peopleís personal space, even in the midst of my planetary enthusiasm.

Summer 2018 Incident

While filming this past summer, I had a (female) Production Assistant assigned to me, to ensure, among her countless tasks, that every ounce of my energy was efficiently allocated to the production needs of the show. As part of this, she was also my driver, to and from the studio, ensuring that I arrive on time. In the car we would review details of the shoot and she would help me anticipate parts of the shoot to come. Across the many weeks of shooting she and I spent upwards of a hundred hours in one-on-one conversation. We became so friendly that we talked about all manner of subjects, even social-personal ones, like the care of aging parents, sibling relationships, life in high school and college, hometown hobbies, race, gender, and so forth. We also discussed less-personal topics in abundance, like rock lyrics, favorite songs in various musical genres, concert experiences, etc. And we also talked about food Ė Iím kind of a foodie, and her fiancť was a chef. In short, we had a fun, talkative friendship.

She is a talented, warm and friendly person -- excellent traits for morale on a high pressure production. Practically everyone she knows on set gets a daily welcome-hug from her. I expressly rejected each hug offered frequently during the Production. But in its place I offered a handshake, and on a few occasions, clumsily declared, ďIf I hug you I might just want more.Ē My intent was to express restrained but genuine affection.

In the final week of shooting, with just a few days left, as a capstone of our friendship, I invited her to wine & cheese at my place upon dropping me off from work. No pressure. I serve wine & cheese often to visitors. And I even alerted her that others from the production were gathering elsewhere that evening, so she could just drop me off and head straight there or anywhere elsewhere. She freely chose to come by for wine & cheese and I was delighted. In the car, we had started a long conversation that could continue unabated. Production days are long. We arrived late, but she was on her way home two hours later.

Afterwards, she came into my office to told me she was creeped out by the wine & cheese evening. She viewed the invite as an attempt to seduce her, even though she sat across the wine & cheese table from me, and all conversation had been in the same vein as all other conversations we ever had.

Further, I never touched her until I shook her hand upon departure. On that occasion, I had offered a special handshake, one I learned from a Native elder on reservation land at the edge of the Grand Canyon. You extend your thumb forward during the handshake to feel the other personís vital spirit energy -- the pulse. Iíve never forgotten that handshake, and I save it in appreciation of people with whom Iíve developed new friendships.

At that last meeting in my office, I apologized profusely. She accepted the apology. And I assured her that had I known she was uncomfortable, I would have apologized on the spot, ended the evening, and possibly reminded her of the other social gathering that she could attend. She nonetheless declared it her last day, with only a few days left of production.

I note that her final gesture to me was the offer of a hug, which I accepted as a parting friend.

Early 1980s

I entered astrophysics graduate school directly out of college in 1980. Itís a grueling adventure-marathon, and many people do not finish the PhD. In fact, it was not uncommon for half the admitted students to leave after two or three years, finding some other kind of work in their lives. While in graduate school I had several girlfriends, one of whom would become my wife of thirty years, a mathematical physicist -- we met in Relativity class. Over this time I had a brief relationship with a fellow astro-graduate student, from a more recent entering class. I remember being intimate only a few times, all at her apartment, but the chemistry wasnít there. So the relationship faded quickly. There was nothing otherwise odd or unusual about this friendship.

I didn't see much of her after that time. Our student offices were on different floors of the building and we were not in the same classes. A few years later, I ran into her, pregnant, with who I think was the father by her side. Thatís when I had learned that she dropped out of graduate school. Again, this is not itself an unusual fact, but I nonetheless wished her well in motherhood and in whatever career path would follow.

More than thirty years later, as my visibility-level took another jump, I read a freshly posted blog accusing me of drugging and raping a woman I did not recognize by either photo or name. Turned out to be the same person who I dated briefly in graduate school. She had changed her name and lived an entire life, married with children, before this accusation.

For me, what was most significant, was that in this new life, long after dropping out of astrophysics graduate school, she was posting videos of colored tuning forks endowed with vibrational therapeutic energy that she channels from the orbiting planets. As a scientist, I found this odd. Meanwhile, according to her blog posts, the drug and rape allegation comes from an assumption of what happened to her during a night that she cannot remember. It is as though a false memory had been implanted, which, because it never actually happened, had to be remembered as an evening she doesnít remember. Nor does she remember waking up the next morning and going to the office. I kept a record of everything she posted, in case her stories morphed over time. So this is sad, which, for me, defies explanation.

I note that this allegation was used as a kind of solicitation-bait by at least one journalist to bring out of the woodwork anybody who had any encounter with me that left them uncomfortable.

Overview

Iím the accused, so why believe anything I say? Why believe me at all?

That brings us back to the value of an independent investigation, which FOX/NatGeo (the networks on which Cosmos and StarTalk air) announced that they will conduct. I welcome this.

Accusations can damage a reputation and a marriage. Sometimes irreversibly. I see myself as loving husband and as a public servant Ė a scientist and educator who serves at the will of the public. I am grateful for the support Iíve received from those who continue to respect and value me and my work.

Respectfully submitted, Neil deGrasse Tyson, New York City

###

https://www.facebook.com/notes/neil-degrasse-tyson/on-being-accused/10156870826326613/

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Reply Neil deGrasse Tyson Responds to Sexual Misconduct Accusations (Original post)
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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 09:28 AM

1. Wow, that was to the point.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 09:35 AM

2. Won't do him any good

He's already been tried and convicted. Even here on DU.

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Response to Cartoonist (Reply #2)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 09:39 AM

3. That's probably true, but

we have seen way too many of these "witch hunts". I believe him 100%

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 09:52 AM

4. I believe him....

...I also believe many of these accusations have been false to discredit the "Me too" movement.

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Response to Trueblue Texan (Reply #4)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 04:02 PM

108. All sounds plausible... to be fair, need to compare his detailed accounts to those of the accusers.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 10:06 AM

5. Being socially awkward should not be confused with sexual misconduct.

From what I read here, the 1984 accusation doesn't sound too credible, and the other two sound more like a weird guy rather than a sexual predator.

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Response to IluvPitties (Reply #5)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 10:47 AM

9. Are you saying you can't have an innocent friendship and offer someone wine and cheese?

Just because someone offers wine and cheese with someone he had gotten to know does that automatically mean he had other intentions? Is this where we are? People can't have innocent friendships anymore? If you offer wine and cheese that means you're weird or socially awkward? My god. It is just out of freaking control.

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Response to LBM20 (Reply #9)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:45 AM

27. An innocent friendship and some wine and cheese?

First of all, he is her boss and a well-respected celebrity so this a serious power imbalance at play. When he says she "freely chose" to accept his invitation to have wine and cheese alone with him, he must realize that such a choice is not entirely free when it's a powerful celebrity boss asking a production assistant. (In fact, she has stated that "she agreed to visit because she felt pressured to impress her boss" ).

Secondly, a boss should know better than to say to a subordinate: "If I hug you I might just want moreĒ - considering the power dynamic at play, there is really no context that would make such a comment appropriate (and he admits to making that comment more than once).

Thirdly, he confirms that he offered her "a special handshake" designed to "feel the other person's vital energy" which again does not sound like something appropriate in a boss-subordinate situation (especially when they are alone together at his place).

Most significantly, he reports that she came to his office the next day and told him that she was "creeped out" by the evening and that she felt that he was trying to seduce her. He adds that he "apologized profusely" but notes that she quit the job on the spot.

She also adds that she reported the behavior to another supervisor and to the company sexual harassment hotline.

One would think that if this had been the culmination of an "innocent friendship" then she would not have felt the need to take the steps that she did the following day.

Even in his telling of the events, it seems clear that his behavior was inappropriate and caused enough distress and discomfort for this woman to speak to him about it the next day, report the behavior, and quit the job.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #27)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:52 AM

33. Why is the subordinate offering to hug the boss to begin with? at least that's what he claims, she

was the one offering hugs. If subordinate was a man, offering hugs to female supervisors, would you view it the same way?

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Response to LisaL (Reply #33)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 12:15 PM

50. I thought what we were evaluating were this woman's claims about this man's behavior

If someone wants to come forward and say that they felt harassed or creeped out by this woman due to her hug offers, then we can evaluate that. It does not seem that such is this case. The only person who seems to be saying they were harassed is this woman.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #50)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 03:07 PM

93. One of the claims apparently involves the way he declined her offers of hugs.

So sorry, it makes no sense for you to claim that her offering to hug people don't belong in this discussion.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #93)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 03:29 PM

102. OK

So bearing in mind that he says that she offered to hug people, and based on his description of the "wine and cheese" evening, do you think he behaved inappropriately at all?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #27)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:57 AM

40. Well you have a vivid imagination I guess

You can make evil out of innocence.

Too bad

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #40)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 09:28 PM

123. The woman said she felt uncomfortable and creeped out

To the point that she confronted him about it the next day, reported it to the relevant sexual harassment hotline, told a supervisor, and quit her job.

Also NDT himself said that he "apologized profusely" according to his own statement.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #123)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:55 AM

186. that alone does not make him wrong

those attacks on Christine Ford's credibility were not in good faith and made by right wingers. She did not report it right away. So reporting it right away is in her favor but still does not make him immediately guilty.

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Response to treestar (Reply #186)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 01:02 PM

195. There is no relationship between this and Christine Ford

Ford made an accusation of sexual assault which is much much much more serious than an accusation of workplace sexual harassment.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #195)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 03:41 PM

215. who was brining up the idea we believe the accusation

when we don't like the person (i.e. Kavanaugh) and don't when we do (NDT)?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #27)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 01:45 PM

73. He actually noted repeatedly that it was the wrap up.

Tthe job was over, the crew was celebrating the end of the job.

So ...

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Response to Ninsianna (Reply #73)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 09:29 PM

124. He notes that she quit the job immediately even though there were only a few days left

On the production.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #27)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 09:18 PM

122. She's hugging everyone, and she chose to go to his apartment where nothing happened.

I don't see a problem with what he did.

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Response to lindysalsagal (Reply #122)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 09:36 PM

125. She says that she felt pressured to accept his invitation

Since he was her boss.

Clearly whatever occurred that evening made her uncomfortable enough to confront him about it the next day and warranted him "apologizing profusely" according to his statement.

She also reported the behavior to the sexual harassment hotline and spoke to a supervisor and quit the job with only a few days of the production remaining.

It seems strange that she would have taken these steps for no reason.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #125)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 01:49 AM

141. But not by him. Rather, by his status as her boss.

He seems to have regarded her by that time as a friend who worked for him, not as an employee with whom he was friendly. She obviously still noticed the perceived power imbalance; but perhaps it wasn't something that crossed his mind.

=======

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Response to Beartracks (Reply #141)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 05:42 AM

144. It didn't cross his mind that there is a power imbalance?

That seems hard to believe.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #125)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 05:07 AM

143. The strange part is going to his apartment. She's not a slave. She has rights and agency.

Not buying the helpless woman thing at all.

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Response to lindysalsagal (Reply #143)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 05:44 AM

145. It is often challenging to decline an invitation from a powerful, influential person

Who is not only your current boss but is someone who could help or hinder your career enormously.

She is certainly not helpless but was put into a difficult situation.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #145)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 05:52 AM

146. Not as challenging as geting assaulted. You turn him down and THEN if he punishes you go to HR.

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Response to lindysalsagal (Reply #146)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 06:46 AM

149. But if he punishes you, going to HR may not remedy the situation

Especially when, as in this case, the person is not just a supervisor in a company but a well-known and influential public figure in this woman's field of interest.

This is why I think it is generally not appropriate for a figure with that much power to invite a subordinate over for wine at their place on a one-on-one basis with no one else present.

It puts the less powerful person in the difficult situation of having to either decline the invitation, thereby potentially negatively impacting their future career, or accept the invitation and potentially be subjected to an uncomfortable situation or worse.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #145)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:22 AM

158. Please

We are not that helpless. Good God, just decline the invitation. Then if he does something to prejudice your job, you may have something.

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Response to treestar (Reply #158)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:02 AM

171. Well, exactly.

He invited her for wine and cheese. She was the one driving, so she could have declined, dropped him off and left in her car. If there were any retaliation she could have reported it then. Obviously she had no problem with reporting it after she had accepted wine and cheese invitation.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #171)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:12 AM

175. "If there were any retaliation she could have reported it then"

What if the retaliation involved him calling other people in the field and telling them not to hire her? Who would she be able to report that to? How would she even ever know that such calls took place?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #175)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:20 AM

178. Which is why she should have filed a complaint when offered the chance. But she declined

to do so, saying ďI didnít want to cause a fuss.Ē

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Reply #178)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:48 AM

185. which is legitimate

there are cases for which it is worth "making a fuss" but not every single instance. If that level is enough, I'd have made 40 accusations by now.

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Reply #178)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 01:03 PM

196. There are understandable reasons why one might not do so

But I agree that it would have been better if she had.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #175)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:47 AM

184. That could happen at any time

and without sexual harassment.

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Response to treestar (Reply #158)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:05 AM

173. The more powerful person has a responsibility not to put the less powerful person in that position

That's why companies have policies related to workplace relationships especially with respect to supervisors and underlings.

In this case, we are not just talking about a supervisor but a well-known and influential figure in the field whose impact could be quite far-reaching.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #173)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:46 AM

183. That "company" may not have had "policies"

But don't tell me I can't say "no" when a superior asks me - if I don't want to go, I decline. Most of us can realize that by now. And given that there are same-sex relationships in the world and harassment is possible, you've just made almost any golf game or coffee into a sexual harassment case. I used to go to lunch with a paralegal all the time. Was I harassing her? I think she was the one who asked, but should I have known to decline? LOL.

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Response to treestar (Reply #183)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 01:04 PM

197. Making unwanted sexual advances is what makes something a sexual harassment case

Not playing golf, having lunch, or drinking coffee.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #197)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 02:41 PM

209. or perhaps having a conversation over wine & cheese? /NT

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Response to oberliner (Reply #197)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 03:42 PM

216. or wine and cheese

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 10:24 AM

6. If I hug you I might just want want more

Thatís such a strange remark. I wonder if he said it to his same-sex colleagues?

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Response to Politicub (Reply #6)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:00 AM

13. It depends on how you take that remark

If you take it to mean "I might want more hugs", then it's pretty harmless. If you take it to mean "I might want more than a hug", then it's pretty creepy. I only know Dr Tyson from podcast & videos, and he always seemed like a big slightly goofy nerd to me. On that basis I took it to mean "I might want more hugs".

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Response to HuskyOffset (Reply #13)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:48 AM

29. She was the one offering the hugs, which he declined, according to what he says.

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Response to HuskyOffset (Reply #13)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:55 AM

37. I don't necessarily see that as a strange remark, or creepy


Some of us are raised with very little in the way of physical touching. I don't think I was hugged by either of my parents from the time I was a toddler until I was in my 20's. The first time I remember hugging my father was when I came home from Vietnam. The first time I remember kissing my father he was on his deathbed. When you're raised in such an environment pretty much all touching becomes sexual. All hugging seems an invitation, and is extremely awkward if it's with someone that is clearly not a potential sexual pardner.

I'm married to a woman who was raised in the opposite manner. Her family hugs all the time, when you arrive, when you leave, if you express any emotion, etc. My wife hugs everybody. She'll hug complete strangers at a Seahawks gave when we score a touchdown.

"I might want more than a hug" is something I probably have said in declining to hug an attractive young lady. Awkward, and stupid and open to misunderstanding, but at that moment I felt awkward and stupid and socially clumsy.

I'm better than I was, but it's still awkward for me, especially if the other person is young and attractive.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #6)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:44 AM

26. Well apparently she was the one hugging people.

So he had to reject these hugs, and it came out awkward. Maybe she should cool it with the hugs, no?
Or does that only apply to men?

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Response to Politicub (Reply #6)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 02:39 PM

84. Yeah, that's gross.

And the weird handshake.

I was inclined to believe him until I read his ďdefense.Ē

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Response to Politicub (Reply #6)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 01:42 PM

201. That remark is the only thing I find creepy

If no one else comes forward, I'm satisfied. If he really is an abuser, there will be more.

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Response to wryter2000 (Reply #201)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 02:20 PM

204. Me, too.

I give him the benefit of the doubt. Just the remark sounded gross.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 10:30 AM

7. Does anyone have info on these women's backgrounds?

In these she-accuses/he-denies situations, it's important to know more or I at least try to withhold opinion.

For instance, turned out that every one of Bill Clinton's accusers were women of demonstrably poor character, usually strongly conservative, some had connections with right-wing anti-Clinton agents, they all benefited financially, and the accounts of almost all were contradicted by witnesses. The exception to contradictory witnesses was Juanita Brodrick, whose investigation and personal accounts nevertheless resulted in swiftboater Ken Starr discarding her accusations, and her, though he's of course never revealed why.

(Wonder if we'll learn more when we finally get access to the hidden records about Kavanaugh's time with Starr's political hit squad.)

Something else to keep in mind: Tyson has been a major target the anti-science, anti-liberal right for years now. He became so popular and well liked that he threatened Big Money interests.

Btw, he's also targeted by anti-science types on the left. Go far enough toward the fringes, you run into both. Such as anti-vax, anti-pharm, anti GMO zealots who reject all science that conflicts with their convictions. He frequently refutes their beliefs, so don't be surprised if attacks come from the left also.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #7)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:44 AM

25. All of the Clinton accusations could in some way be tied to Ken Starr.

That alone should give people pause. Starr was on the job to go after Bill Clinton from day one. He never had an ounce of professional or personal ethics. And, yes, he was a swiftboater.

I would also love to see any hidden records concerning the tactics that Starr and his crowd employed. But I am not sure why we should expect that this will happen. It seems like any pursuit of justice, or accountability, for the GOP thugs is off the table.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #7)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 12:04 PM

47. The left is not rejecting science.

Being anti GMO is a world wide.

Burning incense at the alter of science is not an enlightened stance. Especially lumping anti vaccine and anti GMO together.

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #47)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 01:02 PM

64. I'm left, wasu, and very pro-science. If it can be

proven, I'll abandon my previous notions. Sure, anti-GMO is worldwide, and almost everyone feels a need to be very cautious about genetic interventions, certainly not just the anti-science types.

But all the studies into adverse effects of GMOs have definitively found all those allowed into production are no worse than the natural forms they were derived from, and often much better and extremely beneficial. That's the bottom line for me, until the next variety of product and studies. I was very cautious also, but can't argue with reality. Being pro-science, I of course do absolutely want every new variant carefully studied before introduction.

Wasu, there is also very strong overlap between these science-denying groups. That's also been measured and analyzed scientifically. The GMP and vaccine movements have to be lumped together, because they lump themselves by great overlap. Commonalities include tendencies to distrust and conspiracism that override exposure to scientifically proven facts, but many others just have a tendency to prefer knowledgeable sounding sites of those who reinforce their concerns, missing those where scientists report. For the most suspicious, of course, facts themselves become proof "they" control the lies people are told. That goes for all the other anti-science, tinfoil-hat schools of thought. Belief in one is the best predictor of belief in any of the others.

That's also been studied many times and ways, measured and analyzed. Nothing is certain, but I know that, when many scientific and other organizations around the world, in and out of government, including scientists and other staff who are earnestly trying to cure disease, end famine, etc., believe something, my best choice is to trust what they believe. Some cannot.

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #47)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 09:11 PM

120. Being anti-vax is worldwide

in spite of having no basis in science. Science is not based on belief.
The European region contains 7 of the top 10 vaccine denial populations. French anti-vaccine sentiment (41 percent) was over 300 percent higher than the global average (12 percent) so even uneducated peasants in the developing world understand immunology better than French elites. Southeast Asia led in confidence. In Thailand, only 6 percent thought vaccines were harmful, Indonesia had 3 percent, while in Bangladesh only 1 percent thought vaccines were unsafe.

Study lead author, Dr Heidi Larson from the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine, said in a statement, "It's striking that Europe stands out as the region most skeptical about vaccine safety. And, in a world where the internet means beliefs and concerns about vaccines can be shared in an instant, we should not underestimate the influence this can have on other countries around the world."

https://www.acsh.org/news/2016/09/09/france-leads-world-anti-vaccine-beliefs-10135

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Response to Progressive dog (Reply #120)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 07:44 AM

152. Safety enables fools to be fools. Adversity educates,

although sometimes the wrong lessons are taken. The latest ebola oubreak in fast eastern DR Congo is escaping control, even though containment teams were there immediately. I'm guessing the sort of people who distrust and reject those trying to help them, in contrast to those eager for assistance, might have at least a tendency to distrust vaccination if they lived in Beverly Hills as well. Personal tendencies to distrust and suspicion rule out over intellect.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #7)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 01:13 PM

65. The right is pathetic if they think this stuff

will affect science. Gawds, they are stupid. It won't invalidate scientific findings.

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Response to treestar (Reply #65)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 01:18 PM

68. I think they're after voters, treestar. Power and who gets it.

Money and who gets it. But also who doesn't, like researchers.

DeGrasse's been a big voice blasting the anti- global warming lies.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #68)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 03:28 PM

101. And bolton rump traitors are about to bomb Iran, so very bad days ahead.

Neil appears to have apologized and is story sounds credible.

Yeah, sounds like Neil was hoping for an affair with the woman. He probably shouldnt have done that, now can he get back to his job of saving the human race please?

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #7)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 09:45 PM

127. I have info on the one who accused him of rape.

First, it looks like the original source for these articles is this:
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/nosacredcows/2018/11/two-more-women-accuse-neil-degrasse-tyson-of-sexual-misconduct/
David G. McAfee is a journalist and author of No Sacred Cows: Investigating Myths, Cults, and the Supernatural. McAfee, who writes about science, skepticism, and faith for his No Sacred Cows blog on the Patheos network, attended University of California, Santa Barbara and graduated with bachelorís degrees in English and Religious Studies with an emphasis on Christianity and Mediterranean religions.

His book sounds like it's in the same vein as Carl Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World; he advocates for using reason and the scientific method in deciding what to believe in real life. He's an atheist. So, probably not a right whinger.

The one who accused him of rape sounds like she is at least a few cards short of a full deck. Anyone can make their own determination by reading her blog?? here:
https://tchiya.wordpress.com/2014/10/08/end-the-silence-end-the-violence-chapter-6-austin-texas-1983-1984-the-blue-lotus-speaks/
short excerpts:
The ONLY way you could EVER be with a Black Goddess, a true Celestial Being, not just one that talks about them, would be by DRUGGING HER, THEN DRAGGING HER TO YOUR BEDROOM, WHILE FULLY UNCONSCIOUS, TAKING OFF HER CLOTHES, AND THEN, WHO KNOWS WHAT WITH HER, OR FOR HOW LONG, WHEN SHE AWAKENS, UNABLE TO MOVE, YOU CONTINUE YOUR DEMONIC ACTS. Is this what you mean by curiosity?...
By forcing your way into MY flower, you completely and totaled disrupted my life, the lives hoes and dreams of my parents and the people that loved and cared about me. YOU disrupted the lives of MY daughters, one of which to this day has not spoken to me in 4 years because she cannot forgive me for living with UNDIAGNOSED PTSD FOR HER ENTIRE LIFE.

The whole thing is very disjointed. I do not find her credible, although I suppose just because she's more than a little off doesn't mean he didn't do it, just that there's really no evidence, not even her words.

There seem to be a lot of Ashley Watsons and I couldn't find a match. I didn't look for Dr. Katelyn N. Allers but she should be easy to find online if she uses social media.

So it looks like the rape accusation can be thrown out and we are left with the other 2 women who were creeped out. But the only touching was him 'looking for Pluto' under the shoulder of her dress, and the Indian handshake where each feels the other's wrist pulse while looking into each other's eyes. Which probably happened. But were perceived differently by each party.

Not much there there IMO. At least so far.

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Response to scipan (Reply #127)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 10:05 PM

130. I gotta share this (from rape accuser's blog)

This is photo of his apartment, the location of the incidentÖ..



I guess he's the one on top??

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 10:35 AM

8. Ever since the Franken scheme

Iíve tossed away the pitchforks and await credible evidence before destroying a person. I look forward to this investigation.

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Response to eissa (Reply #8)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 10:51 AM

11. Yes I agree

We also know that handsome "celebrity" men can be a lightning rod - albeit unintentionally - for stalker-type women. Sometimes the woman is willing to lie if she thinks it would lead to a payday for her. Other times, the woman is just crazy and it's all in her head. So we need to listen and discern the truth before judging an otherwise innocent man.

The "Me Too" movement has its limits, like anything else.

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Response to FakeNoose (Reply #11)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 02:28 PM

80. I think you're on to it. The wine cheese invite resulted in both sitting on opposite sides...

of the table and a conversation, no touching. Makes you wonder if maybe he wasn't the one who wanted something more and was somehow upset that nothing happened?

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Response to brush (Reply #80)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 07:33 PM

116. Do you mean that she wanted something more? nt

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Response to Blecht (Reply #116)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 07:40 PM

117. Possible...bruised ego and all. Nothing happened, just conversation.

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Response to brush (Reply #80)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:51 AM

191. I don't think that's it; she said in another interview that she expected

to talk about continuing to work with him.

When she found out it was a social invitation, it would be natural to be disappointed and uncomfortable; so, she left. When she confronted him about it the next day, he was apologetic.

At that point, it would be reasonable for her to feel humiliated, and decide to just leave the job immediately.

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Reply #191)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 01:11 PM

200. Why feel humiliated? It could've been simply a misunderstanding. The job was ending...

Last edited Mon Dec 3, 2018, 03:31 PM - Edit history (1)

in a week. Maybe she wanted to get away earlier. Nothing untoward happened at his place except maybe not getting invited to stay on.

Certainly doesn't seem like a reason to report him, or maybe it was just getting back at him for not asking her to continue on.

Seems like a minor thing since there was no sexual come on, why endanger his career?

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Response to brush (Reply #200)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 02:17 PM

203. I agree, but I can sort of see her being upset that it wasn't what she thought

and then being unable to just say "whoops". If, of course, my interpretation of what happened is anywhere close; I freely admit I could be wrong.

I agree that it wasn't a reason to report him, regardless.

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Response to eissa (Reply #8)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 03:36 PM

103. What he is accused of is maybe trying to have an affair. He shouldnt have done that if he did,

lets hope rightwing no good fucking assholes arent able to prevent him from possibly saving the human race, something he is actually capable of doing.

Amazing...

rump is credibly accused of multiple rapes and sexual assault, and you will hear NOTHING about that.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 10:50 AM

10. I believe him. n/t

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Response to Greybnk48 (Reply #10)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 03:16 PM

97. So far yes.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 10:54 AM

12. His account sounds as credible as the women's accounts

Men and women can misinterpret social situations, especially if they are very busy and tired. Add in a drink or 2 and you have a recipe for attributing false motives to someone.

These accounts are nothing like Kavanaugh's and Trump's sexual attacks on women. There is no violence and excessive amounts of alcohol. Considering the number of years this covers, there are so few accusers as compared to Kavanaugh, Cosby, Trump and others.

Asking for a full investigation is very appropriate and indicates to me that he is not a monster out grabbing and raping any women he wants.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:10 AM

14. Can we all please support the investigation and see what comes out of it

before we boot him out of his prominent position as we did with Franken?

Sidenote: Kavanaugh never had a real investigation. The Republicans Kabuki danced their way through that one, so he's still fair game.

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Response to Baitball Blogger (Reply #14)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:45 AM

28. Trump would not allow the FBI to investigate anything that he knew would show that

Kavanaugh was guilty. Deberoh Ramirez was almost completely ignored.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:14 AM

15. Innocent people welcome investigation

THIS is how people act that have nothing to hide

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:15 AM

16. I believe him.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:16 AM

17. Keep Gillibrand away from him.

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Response to mac56 (Reply #17)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 12:16 PM

52. You beat me to it.

Hey Senator Gillibrand, youíre running behind on your pile-on here.

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Response to calimary (Reply #52)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 02:35 PM

81. Well NGT wasn't in her way when it comes to 2020 like Franken was

So while Iím sure sheís already convicted NGT (she has made it clear facts and due process do not matter in cases like this, only the accusations) he was/is no threat to her ambitions.

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Response to mac56 (Reply #17)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 12:20 PM

54. +1000

Totally.

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Response to mac56 (Reply #17)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:01 AM

169. Guess she figure this one doesn't add up to any Presidential election points....

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:20 AM

18. re: "She viewed the invite as an attempt to seduce her"

...and so what if it was? Is it now unacceptable to express romantic interest in someone, with no sexually suggestive conversation, or inappropriate touching? With someone who will no longer be in your employ within a few days anyway, so there's no possible suggestion of quid pro quo for keeping their job?

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Response to thesquanderer (Reply #18)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:24 AM

19. If the person is a subordinate then probably inappropriate.

But honestly, what's the big deal here?
Doesn't even look like made any actual seduction attempts here, if what he says is the truth. She sat across the table and presumably had some wine and cheese.

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Response to thesquanderer (Reply #18)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:31 AM

20. When you are their boss it is a problem.

Does that really need to be explained?

Iím not taking any sides here, just replying to your post about ďseductionĒ.

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Response to MrsCoffee (Reply #20)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:35 AM

21. He didn't actually made any attempts if you believe him.

He claims she was sitting across from him and they had wine and cheese, and a conversation similar to the ones they had before.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #21)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:41 AM

23. I have no idea who did what. My post was a reply to a question that amounted to what's the big deal

about trying to seduce someone. Itís a big deal if itís your boss. Thatís all.

Not saying it happened or didnít happen.

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Response to MrsCoffee (Reply #23)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:53 AM

34. Unless there is mutual attraction...

I have seen it happen quite a few times.

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Response to IluvPitties (Reply #34)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:57 AM

39. A lot of workplaces have rules against that (supervisor and subordinate dating), mutual attraction

or not.
But of course it still happens.

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Response to MrsCoffee (Reply #20)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 12:14 PM

49. I understand, but I thought I addressed that in my last sentence. (n/t)

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Response to MrsCoffee (Reply #20)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 10:27 PM

133. Then it was right to impeach Bill Clinton?

Using your logic.

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Response to Yavin4 (Reply #133)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:11 AM

153. He was impeached for perjury and obstruction of justice wasn't he?

He was acquitted on both articles of impeachment.

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Response to MrsCoffee (Reply #153)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:23 AM

190. But, he should have been impeached for an improper relationship?

No?

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:40 AM

22. The sad truth. We live in a time when if you are an outspoken defender of your beliefs....

and they don't agree with the ideology of the powerful ultra-conservative right in this country. You become a target to destroy. In Neil DeGrasse's case he is a strong defender of science and a fact based world.

He is often seen on current event panels. His outspokenness has paint a target on his back.

Think of Senator Franken and Attorney Avenatti in recent months. Both have been targeted for their willingness to speak truth to power.

And yes stay clear of Senator Gillibrand she seems to be willing to ignore the "you are innocent until proven guilty". In Franken's case IMO she saw him as a likely 2020 Presidential candidate and again IMO she has her sights set on a run for that office.

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Response to usaf-vet (Reply #22)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 12:16 PM

51. +1

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:43 AM

24. Once again, shades of the Franken topics. The reactions when the accused is "one of ours"

vs. "one of theirs", e.g. Kavanaugh, are unequal.

That supposed progressives do not see a problem in this is worrying.

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Response to Tarc (Reply #24)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:49 AM

30. We should just autmoatically assume everybody guilty, no matter WTF they are even accused

of. Off with their heads. Is that progressive enough for you?

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Response to LisaL (Reply #30)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:57 AM

38. That seems to be the standard applied to people we do not like, yes

Good to see you're catching on. Finally.

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Response to Tarc (Reply #38)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:59 AM

42. I guess I was wrong that I didn't actually need a sarcasm smilie.

To make it clear what I think.

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Response to Tarc (Reply #38)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:23 PM

137. Oh, I know exactly what you meant

Guess I need a :ridicule: smile.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #30)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 01:52 PM

74. they do seem to equate putting someone in a room and trying to rip their clothes off

with making a simple invitation, which could be declined. And wasn't she driving the car? which meant that she wasn't "trapped". Like in a room with guys at the door. I am with Neil deGrasse Tyson any day.

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Response to Tarc (Reply #24)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 12:00 PM

43. As of now, none of the women have contractict this account of what happened.

Of course, he just put it out, so they haven't had time to respond. But it is entirely possible that they will agree with his description of events.


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Response to Tarc (Reply #24)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 12:21 PM

56. False equivalence

Kav was charged with physical assault.

Al was charged for a photograph.

Neil is charged for turning down a hug.

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Response to Cartoonist (Reply #56)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:22 PM

136. I forgot that males get to decide which type of sexual misconduct is ok, and which is serious

Oh, wait.

You don't get to do that.


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Response to Tarc (Reply #136)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 03:27 AM

142. Serious?

You don't see a difference?

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Response to Tarc (Reply #24)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 01:20 PM

69. These accusations are as silly as the Franken ones

The Kavanaugh one was far more serious.

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Response to Tarc (Reply #24)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 09:38 PM

126. I have been pretty consistent

wait to see what investigations yield. I think that is what should happen with all of these. To take one example where I actually defended an accused conservative, George HW Bush. I said in real time that I felt this was likely part of dementia or Parkinsons and not him actually groping knowingly.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:49 AM

31. This is an excellent model for how to respond to allegations that you believe are not true.

I felt the same way about Al Franken's response to the allegations against him. We will never know for sure I suppose, but I believe them both. I absolutely don't believe Tyson drugged and raped anyone.

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Response to Nitram (Reply #31)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 12:00 PM

44. I agree. nt

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:50 AM

32. In the 2018 case, based on what he says, I think he was sweet on her.

I think the wine and cheese incident was his way of signaling her to make a move IF she was interested.

She didn't, and he didn't do anything inappropriate. (according to his version of events)

She might have been "weirded out" by it, because she was picking up on his vibes. It was just one of those awkward situations when one person is interested and the other is not.

Just my take...

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Response to Coventina (Reply #32)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:54 AM

35. Sounds the same to me.

Sounds like he liked her and signaled it to her, when their supervisor/subordinate relationship was about to be over. but she wasn't into it.
So off with his head.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #35)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 12:02 PM

45. Yeah, it's a real shame that she reacted the way she did

(assuming our take is the correct one)

I don't see that he did anything wrong.

on edit: typo

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Response to Coventina (Reply #32)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:55 AM

36. It's ok to like someone. He seemed interested, she wasn't.

That should have been the end of it.

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Response to IluvPitties (Reply #36)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 12:02 PM

46. I totally agree. n/t

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Response to Coventina (Reply #32)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 01:33 PM

71. I agree

Did he cross the line, considering he was her boss? Maybe.

https://www.npr.org/2018/12/02/672643776/neil-degrasse-tyson-responds-to-claims-of-sexual-harassment


"She says that on May 16, as the show was just about to wrap up production, Tyson invited her to join him in his apartment for wine in the evening after work.

Watson tells NPR that she went because she thought he wanted to talk about her continuing to work as his assistant when the show moved on to filming in Europe.

Instead, she says, he put on music by Nina Simone, opened wine and began pulling cheese from the fridge. She recalls that he had taken off his shoes and was wearing a tank top. "I remember thinking, 'This is a lot of skin for me to be seeing on my boss,' " Watson says. "The vibe was just kind of weird." She says Tyson spoke about the stresses of his job and how he needed a "release.""

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Response to TexasBushwhacker (Reply #71)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 01:51 PM

202. Sounds like a definite misunderstanding to me

She thought it was business. He thought it was social.

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Response to wryter2000 (Reply #202)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 02:30 PM

206. I agree

Add to that, if we are to believe NDT, that she's a big "hugger", and even offered a hug as she left after quitting her job. Men can be clueless and interpret an expression of platonic affection as something more, but women that don't realize this are pretty clueless too, IMHO. Maybe it's just an age and experience thing. I'm 61. It didn't take me too long to learn, when I was in my 20s, that things like hugs and touches can be misinterpreted, SO I DIDN'T DO THEM.

I struck up a friendship with a man my father's age when I was in my 30s and he was in his late 50s, early 60s. We were in a support group and liked to go to IHOP after meetings. After we did this for a couple of months, I started feeling a little worried and I let him know that I just liked him as a friend. He said he knew I wasn't interested in him "that way" and it was fine. But I was aware that just because there's snow on the roof doesn't mean there isn't fire in the furnace. I think NDT, being a red blooded American man with a healthy ego (perhaps too healthy) might have thought that she was interested romantically. Being her boss, he waited until their time working together was almost over and then made a subtle, and unsuccessful, attempt to gauge her interest. They just weren't on the same page.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #32)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 02:40 PM

86. Or maybe because nothing happened someone's ego was bruised?

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Response to brush (Reply #86)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 03:17 PM

98. You mean hers, I take it?

Interesting.

That would make sense in light of her insisting on hugging him repeatedly.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #98)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 03:46 PM

105. Ye, it happens.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:58 AM

41. I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on these accusations...

I won't go into the details as to why. But there's something about each of these that doesn't sit well with me.

I'm getting sort of tired of the "me, too" movement at this point. There has been ample time for people to come forward before now. There has been a national "me, too" movement for many months, now. Not that I wouldn't believe an accusation that was strong and had other authority behind it, or that there is a reason to bring it forward at this time (like Kavanaugh being apptd for the Supreme Court).

I say this as a prior "me, too" victim, myself. Throughout the me, too movement, I, like many others, talked about most of the times I was victimized. So I get why people don't report it or talk about it at the time.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #41)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 12:25 PM

60. Ample time for people to come forward?

Tired of the MeToo movement?

As a fellow victim, I urge you to reconsider those words.

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Response to MrsCoffee (Reply #60)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 12:49 PM

61. No. That's what I think, as a "me, too" victim multiple times over.

When you're talking about these sorts of accusations, which are iffy to begin with (he looked at her tattoo on her arm, even pushing the strap on her sleeveless dress a bit to see the end of it? Seriously?), I think it's odd. Everyone has been coming forward for many months. But not these women. These women know full well what it might do to his career. There's no good reason for it. It's not like the Kavanaugh situation, where there is a good reason to come forward 35 years later. Or Charlie Rose, where he stripped naked and walked around his house in front of someone he didn't know well but had hired.

The accuser of DeGrasse from several years ago is different. And she reported it several years ago.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #61)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 12:55 PM

62. So, there has to be a good reason to come forward?

I have to back out of this conversation, sorry.

Just canít.

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Response to MrsCoffee (Reply #62)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 01:35 PM

72. Yes, it's pointless to argue. I think what I think, and you think what you think.

It's pointless to try to get me to change my mind, unless something really egregious (what I would call sexual harassment) comes forward. I don't consider these three incidents to be sexual harassment, unless something was left out of what I read.

They remind me of the Franken accusations: I asked him to take a pic with me. He agreed, and leaned in and smiled and grabbed a hunk of flesh on my waist! That's not sexual harassment at all, IMO.

As I said, the incident from several years ago is different. It was reported several years ago.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 12:07 PM

48. Occam's Razor says...

..the explanation that requires the least speculation is usually better.

NDeGT is a liberal, an evolutionist, and an atheist. He has a lot of enemies who would smear him and his causes, and those enemies have proven that they will lie.

Barring further evidence, the simplest explanation is that this is a political assassination.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 12:17 PM

53. The 2009 "explanation" was particularly imaginative.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #53)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 12:24 PM

59. Not really.



h/t Jarqui.

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Response to OilemFirchen (Reply #59)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 02:51 PM

89. Sorry, that's odd.

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Response to cwydro (Reply #89)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 03:02 PM

90. Yeah,

no.

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Response to OilemFirchen (Reply #90)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 03:05 PM

92. Somebody I don't know well? Creeping their fingers up my arm?

Yuck.

Not to mention the other incident, with ďif I hug you, I might want more.Ē

Yuck, no.

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Response to cwydro (Reply #92)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 07:22 PM

115. Your response to this totally benign picture out-creeps anything suggested by it.

Seriously. I'm virtually inured to shock value, but your comments are disturbing.

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Response to cwydro (Reply #92)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:07 AM

188. he was looking at the tattoo

not "creeping his fingers up her arm."

Wouldn't most people jerk their arm away? Like right away, if that were the case?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #53)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 02:39 PM

85. Not if one knows anything about NGT.

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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #85)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 02:40 PM

87. The article suggests that there might be things to learn. eom

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 12:21 PM

55. We are missing a great Senator because no one would do a formal review, instead hounding him out

I hope the court of public opinion won't make the same mistake with Professor Neil deGrasse Tyson.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 12:22 PM

57. Good Grief Ladies (and I am one)

Get over yourselves! Nothing of what I read shows him as lecherous, solicitous or even grabby or worthy of any kind of sexual assault accusations. Good freaking grief! I remember a guy once who wrote me an email that said "I had a dream about you. Do you want me to tell you about? It's kind of graphic." I said "No, I'd rather not." and we moved on. If he were to be in the public eye, I guarantee you this would never be brought up by me. Nor would the other dozens of times a guy has said "Nice dress" or looked at my breasts while I was talking. Same with Al Franken. Leave them the freak alone. Hold your anger for the bosses who actually base an employees success/failure on whether or not they sleep with him/her. Hold your anger for the actual assaults, actual discrimination, actual misconduct, actual raping and/or drugging. There are some serious creeps out there and Al Franken and Neil Tyson are not two of them.

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Response to moreland01 (Reply #57)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 12:55 PM

63. I agree. You have to choose your battles

Granted, I'm 61. NDT is 60. I won't say the things NDT did meant nothing, but they don't mean EVERYTHING. Humans are highly individual sexual beings. They are sensitive to different things. What creeps out one person wouldn't another.

In the 2009 incident, if NDT got a little handsy with her shoulder, it's still her shoulder.

I don't know what to make of the rape allegation from the 80s. I read the woman's blog and it seems pretty out there.

The most recent incident with the assistant is more problematic. The coverage from NPR goes into some detail that I hadn't read elsewhere. If it happened as she described, I do think he was interested in her and was, perhaps, trying to gauge her interest.

https://www.npr.org/2018/12/02/672643776/neil-degrasse-tyson-responds-to-claims-of-sexual-harassment

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Response to moreland01 (Reply #57)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 03:14 PM

96. ITA.

He declined a hug in a creepy way? Why does the woman repeatedly offers to hug him (at least that's what he claims?) If a man was repeatedly offering to hug someone and repeatedly declined, people wouldn't have the same reaction, I bet.

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Response to moreland01 (Reply #57)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:25 AM

180. Yes! n/t

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Response to moreland01 (Reply #57)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 11:21 AM

192. +1000

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 12:23 PM

58. Viscerally, I believe the accusers.

All but one are women who've made a career in science. No reason for them to go out on the limb.

I love Tyson. This would be tragic as he is a great defender of science and truth.

Horrible news.

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Response to Beakybird (Reply #58)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 02:27 PM

79. I don't believe them

Thereís something about it, that itís so neat and coordinated gives me pause. Also, he has a lot of people on the far right who hate him. We have seen the lengths that scum is willing to go to to destroy careers. After the Franken deal Iíll never take allegations like these at face value again. Sad, but itís the way it has to be.

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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #79)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:09 AM

189. and that is how the right does it

they have no credible argument against a subject, so they go for ad hominem.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 01:14 PM

66. These are Frankenesque

All stupid things of misunderstanding or later exaggeration. Not exactly the pussy grabbing of the right.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 01:16 PM

67. The only account I cannot judge

is the most severe and the most far back in the past. It seems to be about an event the alleged victim cannot remember which will probably make an investigation and coming to a definite conclusion harder.

The other incidents are of an awkward nature but not even close to the severe accusation. The last incident should have been over when she raised that point in person to him and he apologized for making her uncomfortable. She accepted the invitation, he was the one who repeatedly denied her requests for physical contact. If the roles were reversed and he repeatedly asked to be hugged, I suppose that would have been another accusation against him as well. I can believe that the dinner might have been awkward for her, but that doesn't make it a me too incident.
Similarly, though not as crazy, that deranged person who accused Franken because she was reminded of that fat on her hip, wasn't one either.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 01:26 PM

70. While the truth is still putting on its shoes

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 02:11 PM

75. Why is it only people with money/power

Are accused?
This stinks. NDT seems an honorable man.
I think its for a payday.

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Response to DiverDave (Reply #75)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 04:40 PM

112. Are you seriously asking that question?

Which national news network is going to cover accusations of this nature that are made against Joe the Plumber (before he becames famous as Joe the Plumber)?

It isn't that accusations like this are only made against people with money/power - it is that when accusations like this are made against people without money/power, they don't hit the news.

Because of my position, I know of two within the last year where I work - neither were against people with money or power.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #112)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:17 AM

155. Thank you.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 02:15 PM

76. I'm starting to think Pence has the right idea of never being alone with another female

Even if I ever get back in a right mindset to enter the dating pool again I'm not sure if it is going to be worth the hassle

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Response to Revanchist (Reply #76)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 04:25 PM

111. Very smart move on his part.

I limit my alone time with women who are not related or close friends I've known for years.

As a manager I always left the door open or had a female assistant manager in the room when talking to a female employee/interviewee.

Nothing personal, it's all about CYA.

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Response to Jake Stern (Reply #111)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:23 AM

160. .

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Response to Revanchist (Reply #76)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 08:05 PM

118. If I was a male(I'm not),

I would try to never be alone with a woman who was not my wife or girlfriend. And if I was a male celebrity and was assigned a woman as a personal assistant by a production company, or whatever, Iíd put the kibosh on that, pronto!

I like deGrasse Tyson so Iím hoping nothing comes of these accusations; his denials are very credible.

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Response to rusty fender (Reply #118)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:22 AM

159. .

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Response to Revanchist (Reply #76)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:21 AM

157. Oh please. Think before you post. The exact opposite of what you say is true...

False accusations are fucking rare. 1 in 4 women experience sexual assault.

MRAís and incels would try to make you believe otherwise.

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Response to Revanchist (Reply #76)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:24 AM

161. I don't think most women would have made anything of that

It is because he is famous. I could see avoiding those who work for you directly because of this sort of thing, but not women generally. Pence is overdoing it as a way of protesting anyone getting to say anything.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 02:17 PM

77. I believe him

Unless more evidence comes out, his response is good enough for me.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 02:22 PM

78. Really in these instances, it doesn't matter that much...

Nothing illegal happened that can be proven, nobody is asking for money or for him to get jail time, it's just his word against theirs and we all have to make a decision in this case about whether we believe him or her.

His descriptions of the events ring true with a handful of events in all of our lives that we could point to where someone probably got the wrong idea about something that was said or done, either by us or by them, but they don't appear to have been blatantly nefarious, just a different viewpoint on what happened and what the intentions were.

I'm definitely with Neil here and appreciate him coming forward and addressing these rumors quickly and directly.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 02:36 PM

82. If I hug you, I might want more.

Creepy. Sorry, Iíve heard that line.

Itís creepy.

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Response to cwydro (Reply #82)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 03:04 PM

91. How creepy is it to repeatedly ask for hugs

despite being declined every time?

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Response to Hav (Reply #91)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 03:09 PM

94. And if it were a man doing that, what would people here be saying?

I mean, come on. I understand some people are more inclined to hug people than others (I am not one of those people). But once you offer a hug, and person declines, that should be it.

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Response to cwydro (Reply #82)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 03:18 PM

99. I think it's kind of creepy for a person to go up to strangers hugging them period.

To me a person that just goes up to a stranger and hugs has mental issues.

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Response to rockfordfile (Reply #99)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 03:21 PM

100. She was supposedly hugging co-workers, not strangers.

But once you offer a hug, and the person declines, one would think you should stop offering to hug that person.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #100)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 03:57 PM

107. Hopefully she's learned that hugging is not exactly professional behavior.

Her future colleagues aren't all going to appreciate the touchy-feely informality.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #100)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 04:15 PM

110. Exactly this! n/t

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Response to LisaL (Reply #100)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:37 AM

181. I have hugged people in the workplace a few times

when someone's mom died and they found out at work, I was there and hugged her.

When a person I worked closely with was leaving the company, I hugged him on his last day after helping him carry some stuff to the car.

There were a few other times, with similar situations to these, but I knew no one who went around randomly hugging people or for whom it was a standard hello/goodbye thing.

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Response to rockfordfile (Reply #99)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 12:10 AM

138. Guess you've never been to an AA/NA meeting ... it's practically a rule that you hug strangers there

Although, less expected if you're opposite gender than if you're same-gender ... somewhat interestingly.

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Response to cwydro (Reply #82)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:28 AM

163. but should it result in civil or criminal consequences?

is "creepy" enough for that?

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 02:36 PM

83. I stand with NGT 100 percent

Iíve seen this movie before and spoiler alert, it sucks.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 02:41 PM

88. That's a lot of big fancy words to say "ladies are crazy amirite."

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #88)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 03:42 PM

104. More like I did not do it.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #88)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 09:15 PM

121. Unstable people come in all shapes and sizes, some of them female.

And famous people become targets for no reason.

If no one can produce any evidence of wrong-doing, or any damaging results, then whether or not he was ever out of line, it's simply not actionable.

Personally, I'd trust him, knowing what I see of him in the media.

We also don't know if the old girlfriend attempted to extort him or not. That's another old game.

There may be lots of information we don't have, but by putting the story out there himself, he cannot be extorted. Unless there is more, and I seriously doubt that.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 03:11 PM

95. Thanks for sharing this

As a fan of both Neil deGrasse Tyson and Morgan Freeman this week has been brutal.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 03:47 PM

106. I want to believe him.

I'm going to have to take some time, and see what else develops, before I decide if I do or don't.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 04:03 PM

109. I think what we need is gradations in severity of crime and punishment

*any* sexual harassment is wrong.
*any* misuse of power or relationship imbalance is wrong.

That said, the concept of justice is full of crimes of various severity, based of intent or level of damage, etc.

There has to be various levels of punishment accordingly. Not always "career over".

In this case, it sounds to me like Tyson has been undeniably in the wrong, but didn't have the same evil intent that many other harassers have had. He sounds more oblivious of such situations than knowingly taking advantage of them. That does *not* make what he did ok, he gen if we take him at his word, but it does make it a less severe offense.


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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 05:00 PM

113. This is the rape allegation, such as it is

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Reply #113)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 10:03 PM

129. Well, isn't that special.

Wtf

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 07:06 PM

114. Anyone accused of misconduct who embraces investigation

should be treated with the respect of giving them a fair and thorough investigation. Don't Franken this man please!



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Response to Pacifist Patriot (Reply #114)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 10:25 PM

132. Yes!

The MeToo movement was long overdue. Women's voices need to be heard, not summarily dismissed/discounted as has been the habit for eons.

However, if we turn the MeToo Movement into the MeOnly Movement then women cripple themselves by simply doing unto others what was traditionally done unto us.

That never works well and ultimately damages the original call for social change.

If an accused individual welcomes an independent investigation, is willing to be investigated, evaluated and judged objectively, then that's the best of all worlds.

I think we're naive not to consider that every movement/social shift isn't vulnerable to highjack techniques, chaos agents that will use a movement's sensibility for their own purposes. Al Franken is a case in point, a political hit job that many were far too quick to make instant judgments about or rationalize Franken's dismissal for political expediency.

Let's hope that that's not the case here.

Everyone should have a voice and everyone should be heard in these cases. Otherwise the change that most women want and demand will be strangled in the crib.





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Response to peggysue2 (Reply #132)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:18 AM

156. Precisely. Very eloquently stated, thank you.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 09:08 PM

119. I try to keep an even keel on these things.

It's important that one remain innocent until proven guilty, without that we just have pitchfork waving anarchy. Now from a personal prospective things get a little bit squishy and it's obvious certain people seem to take certain allegations differently based on certain leanings.

Again, I try to stay personally detached but can anyone tell me why 3 allegations some of them recent should be taken either more or less seriously than lets say a single one 35 years ago supposedly at a high school party that no one can independently corroborate that comes out of no ware during a highly politicized confirmation hearing?

On a personal note I like the guy and have enjoyed many various Youtube videos of him, especially when he talks about critical thinking rather than what he's known for which is rather esoteric to most, he seems to know this and doesn't brow-beat. One of my favorite anecdotes he tells is a couple of jury duty stories.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 09:54 PM

128. Very relieved to see this.

I do not condone sexual abuse. I also do not condone people over-analyzing a situation until it turns into something far more than it actually was. This is something we, as a society, have become guilty of doing lately.

The photo-op explanation sounds very much like like one of the same sorts of situations of which Al Franken was accused. At this point, I would think all celebrities would stop doing them.

As for his assistant, if all the facts are as he says. He sat across the table from her, wine and cheese is a common practice of his with guests of all genders then, it is entirely possible a young, inexperienced, impressionable, person interpreted things incorrectly. We all do that when we are young.

The accusation from the 1980s is a tough one. If I am to defend Dr. Ford for not coming forward at the time I have to leave open the possibility this woman is telling the truth. The accusation and his history of actions at the time will be very relevant. The investigation needs to be done and ascertain whether or not he was likely or not likely to have behaved improperly. We found more than enough evidence to convince that Kavahaugh was the sort of cretin who would perform the acts of which he was accused. I will be waiting to see what history has to say of DeGrasse-Tyson

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Response to bitterross (Reply #128)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 10:15 PM

131. How do you envision an "investigation" all these years later?

I just don't understand what you think any investigation could possibly show?

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Response to LisaL (Reply #131)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 10:58 PM

134. The only relevant issue for Fox and NatGeo

is whether he improperly influenced a subordinate.

Even if we accept her account completely, at the most he's guilty of suggestive behavior; she was free to leave when she decided to, and in no way did he assault her, or threaten her position, which was ending in a very short time.

There is a detail from the Washington Post which is not in the Patheos piece:

"In an interview with The Post, Watson described an uncomfortable night with Tyson in May 2018. She had been working as his assistant on the Santa Fe set of ďCosmosĒ for several months and was hoping that Tyson would ask her to continue working for him when production moved to Europe." She hoped this, despite the fact that she later claimed, according to the Patheos piece, that he frequently made misogynistic comments.

So, putting everything together, my take is that the production, and with it his authority over her, were ending, and he asked her over. He thought was a social get together because the job was winding down, whereas she though they were going to talk about future employment. When that turned out not to be the case, she got creeped out.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #131)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 12:27 AM

139. I already alluded to the answer to your question.

We saw that an actual investigation of Brett Kavanaugh would have turned up a lot of circumstantial evidence. Evidence that would show his behaviors during the time he was accused were consistent with being an attacker and someone who would likely have committed the act of which Dr. Ford accused him.

As a graduate student at the time of the accusation, DeGrasse-Tyson would have interacted with hundreds of female students. He was probably a teaching assistant so he would have had power over those students. Were he at all inclined to either use that power over the students to sexually assault or to go so far as to drug and rape there will be other students with similar stories. A real investigation that sought out his students from that time would be a good indicator of whether or not the allegations are true. It could bring forward other women who were abused or it could clear his name with reasonable certainty by the complete absence of any other alleged incidents.

I don't really like the tone of your putting "investigation" into quotes as if such a thing is not possible all the years later. As if I'm ridiculous for suggesting such a thing can happen and be fair. It really makes it look like you've found him guilty without any evidence.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 11:17 PM

135. Who actually decides the timing of such accusations? And are they calculated to achieve some effect?

Multiple accusers-- BOOM! Why now? Why not some other time? Is there anyone besides the women involved in rolling out these accusations, at this particular time?

This reeks of the Franken hit. Political motivation. Sullies the individual's name, undercuts his/her ability to live a publicly visible life (and to earn a living) without a negative association.

If it turns out that NdT was in fact involved in sexual misconduct, then he deserves punishment. But the accusers and their attorneys should be forthcoming with more details.



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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 12:40 AM

140. Meh...

Ö sounds like he had developed a friendship with her he was going to miss - it often happens when you have limited assignments and are not going to see someone who was a regular in your life...

Ö there may have been something "more" (a sexual attraction) on either or both of their parts and I can see how both acted in ways that may have been "signals" - but nothing happened.

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Response to Mike Nelson (Reply #140)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 05:55 AM

147. If nothing happened, why did she confront him the next day in his office?

And why did he "apologize profusely" ? She also felt the need to report the incident to the relevant sexual harassment hotline, tell another supervisor about what occurred, and quit the job even though there were only a few days remaining. That seems to indicate that it wasn't nothing.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #147)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 06:13 AM

148. Yes, one wonders. nt

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #148)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 06:48 AM

150. Her explanation seems plausible to me

Does it not to you?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #150)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:15 AM

177. His explanation seems plausible to me

Does it not to you?

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #177)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 01:10 PM

199. Yes, absolutely

Hence the importance of an outside investigation to further evaluate the relative plausibility of the claims.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #147)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 07:13 AM

151. My meaning...

Ö in saying "nothing happened" was that there was, according to what I read, no sex. It's entirely possibly there was a sexual relationship or even a sexual assault - I'm just trying to put their two stories together. She was uncomfortable and he apologized - so, "something" obviously was wrong and both show that in their recollections of the evening. I do see your point, I and agree with you that sexual harassment is not "nothing." These accusations need to be looked at more closelyÖ I would this like this woman to continue speaking out - and take legal action, if possible. As it stands now, I'm not convinced a crime was committedÖ Lastly, I'll try to avoid phrases like "nothing happened" when relating whether or not a sex at took place.

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Response to Mike Nelson (Reply #151)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:00 AM

168. Neither one is claiming any sexual relationship let alone sexual assault.

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Response to Mike Nelson (Reply #151)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:02 AM

172. The only claim here is one of sexual harassment

She is not claiming anything beyond that.

With that in mind, it sounds like we are on the same page.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #147)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:13 AM

154. Probably because she misiunderstood the invite, and freaked out

Their working relationship was ending; he invited her over socially, while she thought they were going to talk about her continuing to work for him.

She got creeped out, and left. She told him so the next day, and he apologized.

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Reply #154)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:01 AM

170. That makes sense

And aligns with my assessment of the situation - which is that he behaved inappropriately (and apologized for it).

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Response to oberliner (Reply #170)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:14 AM

176. I'm not even going to grant that he behaved inappropriately, just that it was

a complete misunderstanding.

And, if we accept his statement that she repeatedly tried to hug him along with coworkers (which is inappropriate on her part, IMO) and he refused, then it supports the notion that he tried to keep thing professional until their working relationship was about to end. He thought she each being friendly, she thought he wanted to talk shop.

I do understand that this won't convince you, of course; you've made it quite clear that you think his gonads should be cut off and run up the flagpole.

But, in the final analysis, he didn't do anything but make her uncomfortable, and she left; and it is more than plausible that her discomfort was completely due to a simple misunderstanding, for which he apologized.

No matter how you try and make it worse than that, the facts simply don't support it, and you seem more concerned with proving yourself right than objectively considering the particulars of the event.

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Response to LongtimeAZDem (Reply #176)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 01:07 PM

198. What a ridiculous claim

I definitely do not "think his gonads should be cut off and run up the flagpole". I think that networks who want to give him his own TV show ought to take the claims of this woman into consideration as they are making that decision.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #198)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 02:24 PM

205. Sorry, but I don't buy that. You have consistently tried to interpret every aspect of the situation,

from both sides, in the most egregious light towards Tyson, up to and including trying to portray his apology as an admission of wrongdoing.

You have clearly convicted him in your mind. If you think haven't, then I submit that you are expressing yourself poorly, as I believe any objective reading of your posts supports the conclusion that you have.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #147)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:26 AM

162. you keep using the apology as an admission of guilt

as if he should have apologized. Apologizing does not mean what he did was illegal. It just means he felt bad for her that she felt bad in an awkward situation.

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Response to treestar (Reply #162)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:55 AM

165. Exactly right (nt)

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Response to treestar (Reply #162)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:58 AM

166. I don't think the apology is an admission of guilt

I think it is a recognition that he felt that he did something for which he believed he should apologize.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #166)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:25 AM

179. Which nice people do when they think they've inadvertently upset a friend. /nt

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Response to oberliner (Reply #147)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:30 AM

164. Add hot water to DemocratsAreBadMeTooRamen.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #164)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:59 AM

167. Alternatively, be consistent

And don't have a different standard for when accusation are made against people you like vs. people you don't like.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #167)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:10 AM

174. "people you like vs. people you don't like."

What is this "like" you speak of? Facts are facts. "Like" has nothing to do with it.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #174)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 12:56 PM

193. People like Neil DeGrasse Tyson

So they might be more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #167)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:02 AM

187. Can we take each case on the facts and not be required to believe every

charge or not?

Christine Ford was credible in spite of the passage of time, and her accusation was very serious, someone trying to rape her, holding her down. This Native American handshake story is not like that.

And right wingers are more likely to use what they perceive as their male privilege and power. That is based on their view of the world. It is not a surprise that their accusations are more serious and more credible.

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Response to treestar (Reply #187)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 01:00 PM

194. I hope that we can

With respect to the Native American handshake story, there is no accusation of sexual assault being made - just sexual harassment so it is not akin to Christine Ford.

There is a woman who has accused NDT of raping her in college.

I disagree that right wingers are more likely to use their male privilege and power based on their view of the world.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:44 AM

182. Also, this is the most straight-up piece of garbage I've read in some time:

Further, I never touched her until I shook her hand upon departure. On that occasion, I had offered a special handshake, one I learned from a Native elder on reservation land at the edge of the Grand Canyon. You extend your thumb forward during the handshake to feel the other personís vital spirit energy -- the pulse. Iíve never forgotten that handshake, and I save it in appreciation of people with whom Iíve developed new friendships.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #182)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 02:35 PM

207. What is your interpretation? NT

NT

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Response to Eric J in MN (Reply #207)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 02:45 PM

210. A "Native American handshake" that feels a person's "vital spirit energy" is bullshit.

It's a pretty common creeper approach -- framing unwanted touch in an innocuous or seemingly desirable way that both is easily deniable ("Oh, it's just a handshake! And I got it from a NATIVE AMERICAN) and makes the recipient uncertain about their own perceptions.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #182)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 02:39 PM

208. I would ask NDT if he ever offers this handshake to men

because my guess is he doesn't. Nevertheless, I think she overreacted and I wonder if there is someone from the right behind it.

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Response to TexasBushwhacker (Reply #208)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 02:46 PM

211. More likely he's creepy and is fine straying over boundaries. It's pretty clear from his statement.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #211)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 03:01 PM

212. One person's creepy is another person's flirtatious

He has a healthy ego, maybe too healthy. As a woman close to his age, I think he's a pretty sexy dude. My guess is that he's used to women flirting with him. Maybe he thought the assistant had been flirting with him. I don't look at his behavior as creepy as much as just something men do. We don't even know if anything would have come of it if she'd been receptive. Sometimes it's just fun to flirt.

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Response to TexasBushwhacker (Reply #208)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 03:19 PM

214. He says "I've never forgotten that handshake, and I save it in appreciation of people

with whom Iíve developed new friendships. "

Since he says "people", and not "women" why would you guess he doesn't offer it to men?

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 03:03 PM

213. God this is disheartening. I love NDT. But, shit.

Way Iím reading it, aside from the rape charge is he is one of those guys who is horribly awkward at flirting. This can be endearing or creepy. He lands on the creepy side.

The rape charge is far more serious and I agree that it needs to be investigated. Hopefully he gets his full investigation. His response is kind of awkward as well though, and kind of creepy.

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