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Mon Nov 19, 2018, 07:23 PM

 

Who here is pro trade?

Globalism in its purest implies I am free to sell coca cola in Argentina and any Argentinian is free to travel to and apply for job at any coca-cola factory.

Free movement of goods and labor.

Obviously we have a partial implementation. Trade is probably free within EU ... Between NAFTA members.. Otherwise we have restrictions of all sorts .. Visas / Tarriiffs of many kinds.

Trump seems to anti globalization ( except when it suits him) .. I think Republicans ( the ones who really matter.. Not the idiot base) are generally for globalization .. What is not to love for them about market access and cheaper labor?

Dems have played along.. But I don't think we have a solid opinion one way or another.

What do you all think?


24 replies, 1010 views

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Arrow 24 replies Author Time Post
Reply Who here is pro trade? (Original post)
Le Gaucher Nov 2018 OP
Loki Liesmith Nov 2018 #1
htuttle Nov 2018 #2
Le Gaucher Nov 2018 #3
gratuitous Nov 2018 #4
GulfCoast66 Nov 2018 #5
Buckeyeblue Nov 2018 #6
TexasBushwhacker Nov 2018 #17
Buckeyeblue Nov 2018 #20
TexasBushwhacker Nov 2018 #21
Wounded Bear Nov 2018 #7
Tavarious Jackson Nov 2018 #8
pecosbob Nov 2018 #9
Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #10
moondust Nov 2018 #11
JustAnotherGen Nov 2018 #15
moondust Nov 2018 #16
JustAnotherGen Nov 2018 #22
Hoyt Nov 2018 #12
JustAnotherGen Nov 2018 #13
Mosby Nov 2018 #14
Blue_true Nov 2018 #18
Garrett78 Nov 2018 #19
JonLP24 Nov 2018 #23
JHan Nov 2018 #24

Response to Le Gaucher (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2018, 07:25 PM

1. Generally pro free trade yes

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Response to Le Gaucher (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2018, 07:27 PM

2. The last time I remember a serious discussion about this on the Democratic side was around 2000-2001

Remember Seattle, etc? Right before 9/11 stole our attention for the next 3-4 years.

At the time, the establishment DNC leadership, the DLC, was very much in favor of globalization in the form of trade pacts. That more or less continued under Obama.

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Response to htuttle (Reply #2)

Mon Nov 19, 2018, 07:27 PM

3. I remember the protests

 

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Response to Le Gaucher (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2018, 07:35 PM

4. Trade is a complex balance of several competing interests

Trump, no fan of nuance, doesn't have the first clue when he claimed that trade wars are "so easy to win." Multinational industries and other countries all have their own agenda, their own interests to defend. When environmental concerns and worker rights get steam-rolled by "free" trade, far more people suffer than profit, but as long as the "right" people are extracting the wealth of labor and natural resources to line their own pockets, a lot of people play along for a variety of reasons. Sooner or later the costs must be paid: Who will pay them? Who will not? Who gets the center of the meat and cushions on the seat?

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Response to Le Gaucher (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2018, 08:01 PM

5. Pro free trade here.

Good enough for FDR, good enough for me.

That said, trade is very complicated and since we do not have a real Social Safety net we do nothing for those harmed by the practice. Plus our corporate compensation rules encourage CEOs to make short term gains the goal rather than long term stability.

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Response to Le Gaucher (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2018, 08:09 PM

6. I'm pro free trade as a theory

But free trade stops to exist when companies can move to developing nations or the still developing parts of some nations and pay workers pennies on the dollar.

So it gets complicated. I'm pro free trade with Canada, most of Europe, etc. I'm also pro free trade with companies that pay their workers fairly.

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Response to Buckeyeblue (Reply #6)

Mon Nov 19, 2018, 10:05 PM

17. And we have to be careful with countries like China

that will sell cheap steel, for example, long enough that it puts American manufacturers out of business. Then we'll have no domestic steel industry, and China will have us by the balls.

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Response to TexasBushwhacker (Reply #17)

Mon Nov 19, 2018, 11:20 PM

20. Agreed

I was going to add a comment about governments who prop up certain industries so they can undercut prices.

But I don't think becoming protectionist is the answer. A lot of people called for protectionist policies in the auto industry against Japanese automakers in the 80's and early 90's. But the reality of that is the US car manufacturers had to step up their game and make better cars.

I understand steel is a whole different ball game. Which is what makes the discussion around free trade complicated.

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Response to Buckeyeblue (Reply #20)

Mon Nov 19, 2018, 11:25 PM

21. The Japanese still make better small cars

If I wanted a truck, big SUV or big sedan I'd buy American, but because I drive small, fuel efficient vehicles, they've all been Japanese for the last 30+ years. I'm driving a 12 year old Scion (Toyota) now.

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Response to Le Gaucher (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2018, 08:16 PM

7. Free Trade and capitalism...

two things that are generally good, or at least better than many of the alternatives, but which require serious monitoring and regulation.

Unfettered, capitalism leads to fascism and "free trade" leads to mercantilism and colonialism.

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Response to Le Gaucher (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2018, 08:21 PM

8. I'm pro trade.

 

I think not joining TPP was a grave mistake.

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Response to Le Gaucher (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2018, 08:26 PM

9. I tend to associate the term pro-trade with anti-worker

Sorry, but that's just me...I understand that it is not so by nature, but by practice.

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Response to Le Gaucher (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2018, 09:13 PM

10. We don't have anything approaching free labor.

Instead we are, outside of the EU, chained to our nation states like serfs to their manor.

Id be fine with a free and fair global economic system that transparently and democratically regulated goods services and work for everyone everywhere for safety and quality. We could all live and work anywhere.

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Response to Le Gaucher (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2018, 09:24 PM

11. Mixed feelings.

I think I like the old model of "free trade" between nation states that produced raw materials, goods, and services and then exported/imported to/from other nation states. The offshoring of jobs to cheap labor markets and attacks on labor by Reagan and Republicans have disempowered working people and created way too much inequality and too many dead end jobs.

One of the only things Drumpf kind of gets is the idea that jobs can theoretically be protected from offshoring using tariffs/regulation, but he's 40 years too late with that. Neoliberal Reagan and Republicans would have never dreamed of doing anything like that for the benefit of labor back when it might have worked and set a precedent.

I don't see a problem with Honda building cars in Ohio for sale in the U.S. The problem I have is with a U.S. company like Apple building phones using cheap labor in China and then shipping them to rich countries all over the world to maximize their profits.

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Response to moondust (Reply #11)

Mon Nov 19, 2018, 09:41 PM

15. There's a way around the tariffs

Several types of drawbacks - including substitution using FIFO inventory accounting. It's perfect for USA Manufacturers who craft with imported parts and components then export globally.

The coastal manufacturers (I work for one) are getting one over in the 45. No one is losing their jobs.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #15)

Mon Nov 19, 2018, 09:59 PM

16. No doubt.

Nobody can anticipate all the tricks and workarounds that somebody will come up with. I think a general framework might have been feasible 35-40 years ago, but it would have needed a lot of attention and updating as the workarounds appeared.

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Response to moondust (Reply #16)

Tue Nov 20, 2018, 12:12 PM

22. It was actually established in 1789

The thing is - 45/140 is such a fucking idiot that he had no clue such a thing even existed.

To be blunt? 45 sucks and we are getting one over on the man.

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Response to Le Gaucher (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2018, 09:33 PM

12. We won't make it, economically or otherwise, trading among ourselves.

 

Much of what trump is doing now walking away from TPP, tariffs, Nationalism, etc. are mistakes. Unfortunately, a number of Democrats supported this position during the primaries.

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Response to Le Gaucher (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2018, 09:36 PM

13. My key scope of work

Is managing Import Export Compliance - along with some key supply chain and global regulatory issues.

So yep - pro trade.

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Response to Le Gaucher (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2018, 09:41 PM

14. I'm pro fair trade

Where we adjust trade practices based on a countries commitment to worker's rights and safety, wages, environmental protections, building standards and taxation.

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Response to Le Gaucher (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2018, 10:39 PM

18. I am not for trade that abuses people or the environment.

I am not for a company making a pair of shoes for $20 in a low wage country and selling them for $230 here. Either give the workers in the manufacturing country a lot more wages or make the shoes here in the USA paying wages that shoemakers can live on.

Everything equal (comparative wage rates, environmental policies, ect), I say let the best and best executed idea win.

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Response to Le Gaucher (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2018, 11:02 PM

19. I would trade every single Republican in elected office for everyone in the so-called caravan.

I'd throw in every Libertarian to seal the deal.

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Response to Le Gaucher (Original post)

Tue Nov 20, 2018, 12:16 PM

23. The problem with globalization is labor isn't globalized

Companies have the freedom to go around the world to find cheap labor but labor doesn't enjoy similar freedom to go around the world to find the best paying job.

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Response to Le Gaucher (Original post)

Tue Nov 20, 2018, 12:49 PM

24. It's a strange question, because "free" trade happens whether we like it or not.

I am all for using trade as a secondary means of alliance building in particular and influence and trade deals aiming to lift the floor on labor standards, tho I don't expect them to be perfect all the time - a trade deal involves other countries with their own laws and practices.

For example, the TPP will happen whether America is involved or not, we only have control whether we have a say in it and it is inevitable because it is the first free trade agreement which focuses on a modern economy where intellectual property is treated as other products like car parts and clothing.

The world moves on.

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