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Fri Nov 16, 2018, 11:22 AM

This is how Democrats lose elections. I've been around long enough

to have seen this before. Democrats fighting with each other and Republicans egging them on. We have so much to do and so much to lose! Nancy Pelosi should be re-elected by acclimation.

My mother used to tell me and my brothers when we were fighting..."Stop it! You're all you've got."

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Reply This is how Democrats lose elections. I've been around long enough (Original post)
Raven Nov 2018 OP
Raven Nov 2018 #1
DownriverDem Nov 2018 #7
Caliman73 Nov 2018 #16
certainot Nov 2018 #2
DownriverDem Nov 2018 #8
certainot Nov 2018 #55
Scubamatt Nov 2018 #56
Laura PourMeADrink Nov 2018 #22
Johnny2X2X Nov 2018 #3
MrsCoffee Nov 2018 #11
Johnny2X2X Nov 2018 #14
Honeycombe8 Nov 2018 #42
JHan Nov 2018 #12
Small-Axe Nov 2018 #32
JHan Nov 2018 #33
yardwork Nov 2018 #19
Trenzalore Nov 2018 #26
LexVegas Nov 2018 #35
DownriverDem Nov 2018 #4
Nitram Nov 2018 #5
Vinca Nov 2018 #6
DownriverDem Nov 2018 #9
Caliman73 Nov 2018 #18
Vinca Nov 2018 #28
Caliman73 Nov 2018 #31
peggysue2 Nov 2018 #36
DownriverDem Nov 2018 #49
KayF Nov 2018 #25
bhikkhu Nov 2018 #44
libdem4life Nov 2018 #10
Hortensis Nov 2018 #13
brooklynite Nov 2018 #15
JaneQPublic Nov 2018 #17
yardwork Nov 2018 #20
brooklynite Nov 2018 #21
yardwork Nov 2018 #23
brooklynite Nov 2018 #24
yardwork Nov 2018 #39
brooklynite Nov 2018 #46
yardwork Nov 2018 #47
Trenzalore Nov 2018 #27
yardwork Nov 2018 #38
Trenzalore Nov 2018 #40
Cosmocat Nov 2018 #34
Trenzalore Nov 2018 #29
elfin Nov 2018 #30
Stinky The Clown Nov 2018 #37
trof Nov 2018 #41
INdemo Nov 2018 #43
McKim Nov 2018 #45
Norbert Nov 2018 #48
Nitram Nov 2018 #50
Raven Nov 2018 #51
Codeine Nov 2018 #52
CrispyQ Nov 2018 #53
DFW Nov 2018 #54
demigoddess Nov 2018 #57
demosincebirth Nov 2018 #58
INdemo Nov 2018 #59
NurseJackie Nov 2018 #60
Celerity Nov 2018 #61
NurseJackie Nov 2018 #62

Response to Raven (Original post)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 11:28 AM

1. Just another thought...the time that is being spent

on this takes away from the the planning and work that needs to be done to effectively take on Trump and the Republicans. Let's stick to the main tent and avoid the side shows.

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Response to Raven (Reply #1)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 03:12 PM

7. Don't worry

Nancy's got it all worked out which is why she should be Speaker for the next 2 years.

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Response to DownriverDem (Reply #7)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 03:49 PM

16. Exactly. Spot on.

Pelosi is proceeding as if she will be the Speaker, and that is really why she should be the Speaker. I seriously doubt that any other congress person has an idea of an agenda or what it might take to get that agenda through. We need Pelosi at this critical juncture. Republicans know that, and that is why they have worked to egg on these challenges.

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Response to Raven (Original post)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 01:58 PM

2. it's impossible to evaluate pelosi while ignoring talk radio

if the gop paid $1000/hr for radio time to attack and obstruct dems then 1200 stations doing 15hrs/day are worth about $18MIL/day or about $5BIL/year FREE for the republicans.

pelosi's fault is not recognizing and doing something about that but no other dems are. but when the left screams she's not left enough or she's not trying hard enough they're full of shit merely based on that single fact - that while they're whining they're letting a few hundred lying assholes on 1500 radio stations kick their ass.

year after year for 30 years.

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Response to certainot (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 03:14 PM

8. Talk radio?

What? Do you want Pelosi to put up her own money? Tell us what you think she should have done?
Have you listened to WCPT - Chicago Progressive Talk Radio? I live in Michigan, but I stream it all the time.

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Response to DownriverDem (Reply #8)

Sun Nov 18, 2018, 10:02 AM

55. like i said, no prominent dems have done anything effective about talk radio for 30 years

Last edited Sun Nov 18, 2018, 11:46 AM - Edit history (1)

and when they do try, fool dems and progressives join the right in calling it a free speech issue

so i wouldn't say it's her fault, but dem leadership has to do something about it. the least they can do is stop ignoring it and give it the 'credit' it deserves.

with artificial intelligence-enhanced transcription they can now digitize the main talk radio gods so it can be analyzed and studied - so they can start getting ahead of it instead of always playing catch up on things like benghazi and health care and major reforms we want. that can be done on the local level too.

dem leadership can start with that

streaming is not free and easy as AM radio - chicagoans are lucky to have one of those 5% radio stations....

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Response to certainot (Reply #55)

Sun Nov 18, 2018, 10:35 AM

56. Cannot agree more

Our current situation didnt just arise out of nothing when tRump came down that esclalator. It was the result of 30 years of messaging and framing -aka lies- from right wing media such as talk radio and Fox news- We allowed those outlets to create a framing about the Clintons (especially Hillary), about Al Gore, about John Kerry and Obama and we do little to create our own messaging. Our leadership just doesn’t seem to get it, and thinks we can win the hearts and minds of the people by arguing about arcane technical points of public policy. For example, I am NOT anti-Pelosi, but I will always remember how the first thing she declared after regaining the House after the Iraq invasion was “Impeachment is off the table”; now, I am not naive, and understand that politicians have to be careful about over-promising, but that declaration sent a message that Bush had done nothing wrong worth even investigating! Here we are, 15 years later, and when have Repubs ever been forced to be accountable for the messes they create? We clean them up dutifully, trusting that the public will recognize our good works, yet they fall for Republican lies far too often. Or, when did you EVER hear Obama take a message to the public about the crass obstructionism of the Turtle over Merrick Garland? I want our leaders - Pelosi and Schumer et al to stop being “Charlie Brown” to the Repubs “Lucy” and start attacking the lock Repubs have on messaging in this country. This together with combating voter suppression and gerrymandering is ISSUE NO. 1, and necessary if we are ever to create a situation where we can start to address substantive issues of healthcare, climate change and the growing economic inequality. Through a ton of energy, we have now retaken the house -lets find a way to preserve that and grow that into the Senate and the Presidency in 2020!

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Response to certainot (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 04:06 PM

22. Exactly. We have no plan on how to infiltrate what the deplorables listen to/read

like FB. They are low-info and don't listen to any contrary information. Think all the leadership though including former dem presidents could be called to task on this. Would love to see them all go on a retreat with some creative types and brainstorm different approaches to combating right wing and media savvy -45.

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Response to Raven (Original post)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 02:01 PM

3. Why the rush?

We haven't even found out who will be in our caucus yet, and we can't even discuss leadership for a few days? Give me a break, there is plenty of time to have a vigorous debate about who should be speaker.

You know why we lost in 2016 in part? Because we didn't allow the appearance of a fair primary (Even though it was fair), shutting down and shouting down any questions about Pelosi leading the House gives that same impression, that Dems aren't willing to listen to new voices and Hillary/Pelosi have a birthright to lead the party.

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Response to Johnny2X2X (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 03:25 PM

11. Birthright? So you don't think they put in the work? The hours? The grind?

Are we really going to have these kinds of arguments again?


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Response to MrsCoffee (Reply #11)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 03:30 PM

14. When there can be no discussion people are in fact acting like this is her right

As if Pelosi is the only one who worked hard and could be a good Speaker. She might be the best person for the job, probably is, but to shut down any talk of debating it makes it seem like her supporters for the job feel like she's entitled to it.

I want to win in 2020, let's hear Pelosi and whoever challengers her make their cases as to why they are the best person to lead us to victory in 2020. That's all I'm asking for. And for that it seems the official response is, "there can be no debate, there's no one else but Pelosi." I do not accept that, and I'm of the thought that it's extremely likely that Pelosi is the best person for the job, but the fact no one even wants to discuss it is giving me even more pause.

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Response to Johnny2X2X (Reply #14)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 09:13 PM

42. I know what you mean.

I do think the response to it has not been what it should have been, IMO.

I'm sure Pelosi and the other leading reps can handle this, though, in their own way, in the House itself. I'm thinking there's going to be some serious discussing going on in the House, explaining to the insurrectors that the timing is all wrong.

This is a critical time, where we need to hit the ground running. This may be our only opportunity to deal with Trump and Trumpism. I happen to think that we should stick with experienced people, including Pelosi, right now, as well as chairmanships of key committees. But none of the leaders is "entitled" to his/her position, and it should be made clear to all the reps that that is the party's position. They'll get their chance to run for leadership positions, if they hold off for now, after we get past this critical time. The more experienced reps should explain that Pelosi is the most experienced at that job right now, and the Party needs that. We do need to hit the ground running, and run fast.

The insurrectors have done damage to themselves by not waiting a year or so, IMO. By not recognizing the perilous time next year will be, and that we need super experienced people. The fact that on day one they started with this in a way shows that they aren't ready for the job, since they don't seem to understand the position the country is in, and that the Democrats in the House are our only hope, and we NEED the most experienced right now.

But I'm sure the leading reps in the House will handle the insurrecting group's concerns with the professionalism and courtesy that their experience gives them. I hope all this goes more smoothly going forward. They have a lot of work to do. Bills, investigations, always fund raising....

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Response to Johnny2X2X (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 03:27 PM

12. yeah , the establishment always chooses the candidate,...

which is why Tom Harkin defeated bill clinton in 92,

why Hillary defeated Obama in 08 too...

Yeah no, a certain someone lost his primary fair and square in 2016, and refusal to accept that fact is why we ended up in a mess. Enough with the revisionism.

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Response to JHan (Reply #12)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 05:07 PM

32. Thank you!

 

So sick of this BS

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Response to Small-Axe (Reply #32)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 05:15 PM

33. It's to protect egos. The "rigged" mantra started and metastasized.

Now you have people inventing reasons for a loss.

Bernie didn't play it as well as he could have even tho I won't deny he added some energy that wasn't there but his loss is his own and it was a trouncing. And it's not the fault of some establishment, whatever that is.

The Democratic party has so many different groups, to label such a fractious union under the instruction of one "establishment" was always ridiculous. The key has always been winning the coalition and since he clearly had presidential ambitions in 2012 ( because you don't willy-nilly threaten to primary a sitting president out of the blue) he could have done things differently. He didn't.

He was lucky it was just a showdown between him and HRC where he could create a certain narrative.

damn lucky.

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Response to Johnny2X2X (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 04:03 PM

19. Stop refighting the 2016 primaries.

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Response to Johnny2X2X (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 04:45 PM

26. The "fairness" questions

Were fanned by Russian bots and a candidate that didn't know he was being used.

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Response to Johnny2X2X (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 05:29 PM

35. I didn't like the caucus system and open primaries either. We agree on that. nt

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Response to Raven (Original post)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 02:28 PM

4. For sure

I despise all who are against Nancy. The five white guys have a less progressive record than Nancy. WTF people. No wonder the repubs are laughing their asses off at us.

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Response to Raven (Original post)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 02:32 PM

5. AcclAmation.

We're already acclimated to Pelosi.

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Response to Raven (Original post)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 02:34 PM

6. I totally agree and I really don't understand the big brouhaha over Pelosi.

The position is isn't for Queen of the Congress, it's mostly an administrative position. The people opposing her have taken the GOP bait and it's almost embarrassing.

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Response to Vinca (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 03:22 PM

9. Thank you

I'm right there with you. I don't get it at all.

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Response to Vinca (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 04:00 PM

18. To be fair, Speaker is a VERY powerful position.

It sets the entire agenda and assigns committee positions. You are ABSOLUTELY correct that it is not Queen or King, but it isn't merely and administrative position.


You are also absolutely right that the people opposing Pelosi seem to have taken GOP bait as well as the bait of other entities that want to so discord in the party. Pelosi was effective as Speaker last time, and was effective as Minority leader. The GOP would much rather have a person who wants to "work together" which is code for, "do what we want".

I have not seen one solid answer about who would be better and why exactly they would be better. I have only seen, "new blood", "Fresh face", "new ideas"; as if that is going to matter one bit against the tactics that the House GOP will use to derail any legislation.

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Response to Caliman73 (Reply #18)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 04:50 PM

28. I know it's a powerful position, but this is the first time in my half century of following politics

I've seen anything like this. I think the root of the problem is the newbies who made promises to their constituents . . . for whatever reason.

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Response to Vinca (Reply #28)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 05:05 PM

31. I actually think that the root is a demographic change in the Democratic constituency.

There are two groups of incoming Reps. that made promises. We "ultra progressive" younger members who are kind of like the "don't trust anyone over 30" crowd in the 60's and 70's, who ironically became the yuppies of the 80's. Then we have the "conservidem" who like Ryan in Ohio, and Lamb in Pennsylvania represent slightly redder and Whiter districts. The latter appears to be that ones who are actually pushing the fight and I think, as someone pointed out in this interesting thread

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211439723

that the electorate has changed greatly over the last 12 years for Democrats. The conservidem is in a pickle because while they were able to win by going against the "establishment" or at least against Pelosi in their districts, the national electorate appears to be more on par with what Pelosi represents (solid Progressive policy, but in a measured and sustainable way).

I think that the story is actually getting hyped up way more than it actually is. Nancy Pelosi will secure her necessary votes to be the Speaker and she will be great ... again, and the Republicans will hate her ... again.

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Response to Caliman73 (Reply #31)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 05:46 PM

36. x1000!

The only people who really, really love this dogfight are:

The Republicans who have felt Pelosi's rodeo whip on many occasions, and

The Press because an intra-party fight makes juicy headlines.

Unless we think a circular firing squad will win us anything in 2020, this brouhaha should end, tout suite. Hand Nancy the gavel and let's get ready for the next challenging 2 years with an experienced and shrewd Captain guiding us through rough waters.

Pelosi knows what she's doing and the support from 'concerned' members is dwindling. Anyone who wants to rip defeat out of the jaws of victory, should sit down and suck their thumb. Because this fight? It beyond Dumb and Dumber.

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Response to Caliman73 (Reply #31)

Sat Nov 17, 2018, 11:10 AM

49. About that demographic change

Why do they think they should start at the top? We are talking about Nancy being Speaker for 2 years. She will mentor and move the newbies to leadership positions. Why would they think that they would take over the party at this important time? I'm serious.

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Response to Vinca (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 04:39 PM

25. it's not a big brouhaha

imho it's being exaggerated

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Response to KayF (Reply #25)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 09:32 PM

44. That's my take as well. Pelosi herself has said on numerous occasions she'd step aside

if someone was there to pick up the baton. There's been some grousing, sure, but she's in the position because no one has really stepped up. I'd love to see a new and younger Democratic leader take over. But there's no denying she's been effective, and will do her best going forward.

One sign how effective she is is how much the other side despises her, and its pretty disappointing to see many democrats turned off just by that. As if its her fault. And then imagining that replacing her with someone the repugs liked better might be a strategic move. That would be funny if it weren't such the kind of boneheaded idea people often fall for.

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Response to Raven (Original post)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 03:24 PM

10. Republican strategy. It works. They all HATED Trump but grudgingly went along to get along.

 

If they can get behind a cretin like that, can't our folk be expected to disagree amongst themselves...give everyone their say...then act in unison as Democrats... as a party. To get behind a smart, intelligent, experienced leader? Forget the gender.

The Republicans are counting on the disagreement...dismemberment...discontent. What? We want to help them? I don't think so.

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Response to Raven (Original post)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 03:27 PM

13. Raven, our last election is still going,

and you'll be happy to know that we are winning big.

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Response to Raven (Original post)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 03:34 PM

15. No, it's not...

Jostling for jobs (even "squabbling" among newly elected Members of Congress happens after every election, and nobody remembers a thing about it two years later.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #15)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 04:00 PM

17. Yep. The alternative is to become sheep like GOPers.

Democrats are not mindless, obedient followers like Republicans, all parroting the same talking points.

Yes, we fight amongst ourselves -- perhaps too much at times -- but that's what happens in a diverse "big tent" party where everyone has an opinion and no hesitation to tell you about it.

Like I always say, the mascots for the GOPers and Dems ought to be changed from the elephant and donkey to the sheep and cat, because Dems are just about as difficult to herd as cats.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #15)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 04:04 PM

20. That explains the ongoing argument over who will lead our Senate caucus.

Oh wait. That didn't happen. I guess it happens only when the leader is a woman?

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Response to yardwork (Reply #20)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 04:06 PM

21. The Senate has fewer people...especially fewer new ones...

...and since the leading alternative to Nancy Pelosi is ALSO a woman, I don't see that as much of an issue.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #21)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 04:35 PM

23. You don't, huh? Seems very obviously sexist to me.

If Nancy Pelosi was a man, NOBODY would be questioning her position.

Same old same old.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #23)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 04:37 PM

24. Kathleen Rice.....

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #24)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 07:32 PM

39. Kathleen Rice? THAT'S your standard for progressive?

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Response to yardwork (Reply #39)

Sat Nov 17, 2018, 01:01 AM

46. Never said she was; just that this isn't a "woman" thing.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #46)

Sat Nov 17, 2018, 07:53 AM

47. So if Sarah Huckabee Sanders makes a misogynistic remark it's not really misogynistic?

If a woman does sometimg to repress other women it's not really repressive?

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Response to yardwork (Reply #20)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 04:49 PM

27. I don't see sexism

There is a generational shift going on and Nancy is part of the old guard.

I am actually fairly certain if it wasn't Nancy it would be another woman.

I'm 50-50 on the entire issue. On one hand you need an experienced hand to be at the wheel who has been in these battles before. On the other hand we just completed an election cycle where our new representatives for the most part trended younger and diverse. I'm not sure Rep. Pelosi is the person that represents where the party is going.

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Response to Trenzalore (Reply #27)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 07:31 PM

38. Pelosi is far more progressive than the others vying for the position.

This "old guard" script was written by the Republicans. They fear Pelosi for good reason. That's why I want her to stay.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #38)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 07:35 PM

40. I'd tell the republicans to be careful what they wish for

I don't believe republicans fear Nancy Pelosi anymore than we fear Mitch McConnell or Donald Trump.

I'm 50-50 on the entire thing. Either way whoever is speaker will star in the fundraising emails and letters and be the topic of conversation on Fox News for 2 years.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #15)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 05:24 PM

34. This

nm

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Response to Raven (Original post)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 04:51 PM

29. We are 2 years away from an election

A debate who is going to lead the party is fine as long as it is resolved before Christmas.

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Response to Raven (Original post)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 04:52 PM

30. Yep - we always, always find a way to f":k up.

And it is usually on the cusp of real victory that we increase the backstabbing, third party (Nader, Stein (Green Party) to drain votes away from the main candidate etc. This impulse must be tamped down until Trump and his ilk are GONE.

Dem Leadership must LEAD to the future ala Pelosi significantly involving our future stars to take over after 2020.

The media sharks feed on strife and exacerbate it to our detriment.

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Response to Raven (Original post)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 05:48 PM

37. "Stop it! You're all you've got."

I could not agree more!

Your mother was very wise.

K&R

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Response to Raven (Original post)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 08:28 PM

41. I know, Raven. Will we EVER learn?

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Response to Raven (Original post)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 09:17 PM

43. This fight is probably influenced by Republicans more than we realize

Last edited Sat Nov 17, 2018, 03:21 PM - Edit history (1)

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Response to Raven (Original post)

Fri Nov 16, 2018, 11:03 PM

45. News Media Eggs it On

The news media is egging this fight on. It is bad for we Democrats. This needs to all be done in private or not at all. This makes us look weak. It smells a bit misogynist to me. Republicans want her out because they hate powerful women. It is not their party!

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Response to Raven (Original post)

Sat Nov 17, 2018, 08:10 AM

48. This is why Will Rogers said...

"I don't belong to any organized political party. I'm a democrat."

We are on the cusp of booting out these assholes. Let's not blow it.

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Response to Raven (Original post)

Sat Nov 17, 2018, 01:22 PM

50. The Voice of Doom. Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore!"

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Response to Nitram (Reply #50)

Sat Nov 17, 2018, 02:01 PM

51. Exactly, if they don't get their act together quickly...rapping

rapping rapping at my chamber door.

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Response to Raven (Original post)

Sat Nov 17, 2018, 02:27 PM

52. The average voter pays no attention whatever

 

to leadership changes and inter-party squabbling.

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Response to Raven (Original post)

Sat Nov 17, 2018, 02:57 PM

53. I disagree.

Most people aren't political & this isn't even on their radar. The dems lose because they focus on the undecided voters & the independent voters instead of going after the biggest pool of voter, the non-voters.

We need to make sure everyone who voted in 2018 votes again in 2020 & get even more non-voters off their asses & into the polling booth.

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Response to Raven (Original post)

Sat Nov 17, 2018, 03:03 PM

54. You spotted it. "Republicans egging them on."

The Republicans are terrified (with good reason, I might add) of a unified front of opposition coming from Democrats.

A rock solid phalanx of support for Nancy Peolsi to regain the speaker's gavel absolutely terrifies them. They will do anything to prevent that from happening, including sending out trolls to boards like DU to create nastily-worded opposition to her.

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Response to Raven (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2018, 03:44 PM

57. amen!!! they should re elect Pelosi just to show republicans they won't be used

and abused.

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Response to Raven (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2018, 08:50 PM

58. Just like when Hubert Humphrey lost in 1968. We put a double barrel shot gun to our foot and

pulled the trigger and we got "tricky Dick." The Vietnam war lasted another 6 years and 25,000 young
lives lost.

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Response to Raven (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2018, 10:28 AM

59. Could it be that we actually elected a few Republicans to the House that

are/were posing a Democrats..I mean really
the fight against Pelosi began before all the votes were counted...Is this a Republican tactic?

Republicans first line of Defense will be by Trump and the Republican Senate leader
"See I told you so" The Democrats main goal is to harass the President"

So Democrats have to pass numerous bills along with making those accountable in the Trump Admin.

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Response to INdemo (Reply #59)

Mon Nov 19, 2018, 10:48 AM

60. ...



Could it be that we actually elected a few Republicans to the House that
are/were posing a Democrats..I mean really
This is a joke, right?



Or is that post promoting the "fake Democrats" argument and that there's "no difference" between Republicans and Democrats??



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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #60)

Mon Nov 19, 2018, 10:59 AM

61. Seth Moulton will vote against Pelosi even if the risk is a Republican speaker

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211449756


I am not saying you are wrong, but that is some dodgy shit

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Response to Celerity (Reply #61)

Mon Nov 19, 2018, 11:05 AM

62. Looks like he's getting the headlines, attention and notoriety that he seeks.

#Sad. #Fuckedup

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