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Sun Nov 4, 2018, 01:02 PM

Is Donald Trump Stealing Bernie Sander's Rhetoric or Are They The Same on Key Issues?

Globalists and globalization, trade, immigration, identity politics, the racism of Donald Trump's message and his supporters. On these issues, Donald Trump appears to have plagiarized key Bernie Sander's arguments and policies and amplified upon them. This is a topic that Democrats, Progressives are reluctant to confront, the fact that some "progressive" attacks on immigration, trade and globalization appealed to the same racist and xenophobic dog whistles exploited by Trump.

This reluctance hurts Democrats and Progressives, because how can you strongly call out how Trump for his appeals to racism, and his use of racism to oppress not only minorities, but working class whites, when you are making the same policy arguments as Trump?

Put another way, how can we strongly say that Trump's attacks on globalists and globalization, trade, immigration, identity politics are motivated by racism, anti-semitism, sexism, xenophobia, when progressives like Bernie Sanders have loudly pushed for similar policies. Why can't we just attack Trump and Republicans for their tax cuts, their environmental regulation roll backs, attacks on social security and health care, and their violations of the human rights of immigrants and amnesty seekers? Why do some progressives embrace Trump-like rhetoric on globalization, trade, immigration and identity politics?

For Example:

1. Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump both attack mostly unnamed globalists. Of course, Trump amplifies upon Bernie's attacks on globalists bankers by giving the bogeyman a name: George Soros, which makes Trump's attack even more effective, since Bernie tends to just attack institutions. Bernie and Trump both claimed that Brexit vindicated their stances. Still, consider the excerpts below, and it seems like both Bernie and Trump draw from the same policy book:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/08/30/trump_old_corrupt_globalist_ruling_class_have_been_rejected_the_whole_world_gets_it.html

Trump: The Old And Corrupt Globalist Ruling Class Have Been Rejected, "The Whole World Gets It"

President Trump said the "old and corrupt, globalist, ruling class" have been rejected by the American people and their "bad ideas" are going away one by one. At a Thursday night MAGA Rally in Indiana, Trump said the "whole world gets it" and understand exactly what's going on.

The president denounced the "globalist" ruling class for squandering trillions of dollars on foreign adventures. He said they don't want to build a wall here but "they'll build walls in other countries."

"They're the old and corrupt, globalist, ruling class that squandered trillions of dollars on foreign adventures," the president said. "They don't want to build the wall here, although we've started, but it's not easy. But they'll build walls in other countries. They'll create borders in other lands so far away. But over here, let everybody pour in and we don't worry about the crime. It's a disgrace."

"They've made the worst trade deals in the history of the world, and who enriched themselves while presiding over the destruction of American jobs, American companies, and American wealth? It was the greatest transfer of wealth in the history of the world. What we did to our companies and to our jobs, we should be ashamed of our leadership, but not this leadership. Because we're bringing them back," Trump said.


https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/29/opinion/campaign-stops/bernie-sanders-democrats-need-to-wake-up.html

Surprise, surprise. Workers in Britain, many of whom have seen a decline in their standard of living while the very rich in their country have become much richer, have turned their backs on the European Union and a globalized economy that is failing them and their children.

And it’s not just the British who are suffering. That increasingly globalized economy, established and maintained by the world’s economic elite, is failing people everywhere. Incredibly, the wealthiest 62 people on this planet own as much wealth as the bottom half of the world’s population — around 3.6 billion people. The top 1 percent now owns more wealth than the whole of the bottom 99 percent. The very, very rich enjoy unimaginable luxury while billions of people endure abject poverty, unemployment, and inadequate health care, education, housing and drinking water.

Could this rejection of the current form of the global economy happen in the United States? You bet it could.


2. Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump have also scapegoated trade, with a focus on China and Mexico. Both have called for steel tariffs even though most steel is imported from Canada. Yet, when Trump actually imposed the steel tariffs that Bernie has demanded, Bernie opposed the inclusion of mostly white Canada! This just highlights how both Trump and Bernie are again making racist dog whistles to working class whites, which is particularly clear with Bernie's sudden concern about Canada with respect to steel tariffs.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-13/bernie-sanders-to-trump-on-nafta-for-once-keep-your-promise

Bernie Sanders Tells Trump to Keep His Promise on Nafta

President Donald Trump is finding an unlikely ally in his efforts to overhaul the North American Free Trade Agreement: the political left.

Civil-society groups, union leaders and left-wing politicians have opposed almost everything Trump has done. But they’re urging him to stand firm in his attempt to overhaul Nafta -- and face down opposition from business groups, who complain that U.S. companies will be hurt by the proposed changes. Mexico and Canada have called U.S. demands unworkable, including on regional-content requirements for cars and investor-state dispute systems.

Senator Bernie Sanders, an outspoken critic of trade deals in his campaign for president last year, called on Trump to deliver. “When Donald Trump campaigned for president, he promised that he was going to stop corporations from shifting American jobs to Mexico,” Sanders said Wednesday at a rally for the #ReplaceNafta movement in Washington. “For once in your life, keep your promises.”


3. Bernie Sanders has opposed immigration reform, including reform that would have addressed the plight of dreamers on the ground that immigration reform would hurt the working class. This is similar to arguments and anti-immigration dog whistles made my Republicans. Of course, with Trump, these racist, anti-immigrant dog whistles have become a bull horn. The problem with the "progressives" making similar arguments scapegoating immigration is that it legitimizes Trump's attacks on immigrants. Worse, Bernie has argued that opposing immigration reform is actually beneficial to immigrants, who are being "exploited" by corporations who want to hire them.

Dobbs is opposed to the whole idea of "amnesty," which Sanders was not, but Sanders also doesn't argue with Dobbs about it. Sanders doesn't really say anything about the costs and benefits to immigrants themselves — whether that's people who've been living illegally in the United States or potential future guest workers — one way or another. His focus is on the idea that "what happens in Congress is to a very significant degree dictated by big-money interests" and that "I don't know why we need millions of people to be coming into this country as guest workers who will work for lower wages than American workers and drive wages down even lower than they are now."



4. Bernie has attacked Democrats for engaging in identity politics when it is Republicans who have double down on white nationalism and misogyny to the one of the largest most powerful identity groups in the U.S.: white males. In minimizing the impact and appeal of racism, and saying that class is far more important, Bernie ignores how racism is used to marginalize not only minorities, but also working class whites by giving them a scapegoat, rather than a solution. Finally, by attacking Democrat appeals and defenses of women, minorities and immigrants as identity politics, this gives Republicans cover for similar attacks against Democrats.

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/bernie-sanders-democrats-identity-politics-231710

Sanders slams identity politics as Democrats figure out their future

Bernie Sanders said Monday that the path to success for Democrats has to be through more than just identity politics, adding that it’s simply not enough for the party to base its appeals on diversity.

“It’s not good enough for someone to say, ‘I’m a woman! Vote for me!’” No, that’s not good enough. What we need is a woman who has the guts to stand up to Wall Street, to the insurance companies, to the drug companies, to the fossil fuel industry,” the Vermont independent senator and former Democratic presidential candidate said in a not-so-subtle rebuke to Hillary Clinton.

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Arrow 47 replies Author Time Post
Reply Is Donald Trump Stealing Bernie Sander's Rhetoric or Are They The Same on Key Issues? (Original post)
TomCADem Nov 4 OP
WhiskeyGrinder Nov 4 #1
TomCADem Nov 4 #2
grantcart Nov 4 #3
WhiskeyGrinder Nov 4 #4
Tavarious Jackson Nov 4 #5
angrychair Nov 4 #6
TomCADem Nov 4 #12
angrychair Nov 4 #26
TomCADem Nov 4 #30
angrychair Nov 4 #41
TomCADem Nov 4 #43
angrychair Monday #44
Vinca Nov 4 #7
TomCADem Nov 4 #13
Vinca Nov 4 #15
lapucelle Nov 4 #28
lapucelle Nov 4 #31
TomCADem Nov 4 #32
lapucelle Nov 4 #35
marylandblue Nov 4 #8
JonLP24 Nov 4 #18
TomCADem Nov 4 #24
marylandblue Nov 4 #33
TomCADem Nov 4 #34
marylandblue Nov 4 #36
JCanete Nov 4 #39
Adrahil Nov 4 #9
ismnotwasm Nov 4 #10
Nanjeanne Nov 4 #11
TomCADem Nov 4 #14
shanny Nov 4 #16
JonLP24 Nov 4 #17
TomCADem Nov 4 #21
JonLP24 Nov 4 #23
GulfCoast66 Monday #46
JonLP24 Monday #47
Blue_true Nov 4 #19
JCanete Nov 4 #38
kacekwl Nov 4 #20
TomCADem Nov 4 #25
PufPuf23 Nov 4 #22
TomCADem Nov 4 #27
PufPuf23 Nov 4 #40
Jim Lane Monday #45
HopeAgain Nov 4 #29
JCanete Nov 4 #37
GulfCoast66 Nov 4 #42

Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 01:22 PM

1. It's just populism.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 01:29 PM

2. Are "Populist" Attacks on Globalists, Immigration and International Trade Right Wing or Left Wing?

Personally, I think American workers are being oppressed by the elite here with Republican tax cuts and roll backs of health care and worker protections, more then by trade or immigration. Yet, some progressives still profit from demonizing foreigners, particularly Hispanics and Asians, as a means of generating support.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 01:32 PM

3. Economic nationalism is not a progressive value

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 01:37 PM

4. Populism is neither right- or left-wing. It's simply a tactic many political belief sysems can use.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 01:37 PM

5. I don't know but I am voting for a globalist in 2020 midterms. nt

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 01:52 PM

6. If you agree with Sanders or not

This is not helpful to Democratic unity.

It disgusting to twist what Sanders is saying to equate Sanders to trump.

Sanders is part of the Democratic Party leadership and this type of talk only creates divides where, in this election, we need none.

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Response to angrychair (Reply #6)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 02:55 PM

12. Is Parroting Trump Talking Points Helpful For Democratic Unity?

Also, who is twisting what? One of the links is from an Op-Ed written by Bernie Sanders.

I think we are not going to be able to effectively attack Trump unless we clearly examine whether or not we are going to disagree with Trump.

Look at the policies and rhetoric regarding globalism, immigration and trade. Trump hits these issues every day. If progressives, continue to push a Trump-lite version of these policies, we are not going to be effective. Indeed, doing so validates Trump, and he can argue that Bernie's proposals are just half measures.

Bernie's is against trade agreements? Trump is really against trade agreements?
Bernie wants to limit immigration to protect workers. Trump really wants to limit immigration.
Bernie is against globalist and globalism. Trump is really against globalism, particularly George Soros.
Bernie is against Democrats relying on "Identity Politics." Trump agrees that Democrats are the ones being divisive and overly focused on issues of race and gender.

We are not going to win by pushing Trump-lite policies, and denying that Bernie and Trump have pushed similar rhetoric and policies is going to set us up for failure.

Democrats need to strongly reject Trump's policies and efforts to scapegoat immigrants. Repeating his talking points is what will hurt Democratic unity.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #12)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 05:44 PM

26. Stop twisting Sanders' words to fit your agenda

There is absolutely nothing similar to the political agenda of Sanders and trump.

Trump is a narcissistic racist hate-monger and to equate him with Sanders is disingenuous at best, trading in Russian propaganda talking points meant to divide us at worst.

Trump and Sanders DO NOT have the same agenda nor talking points and to imply otherwise is ridiculous.

I would humbly suggest you focus your attention on the election that is just two days away because nothing is more important.

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Response to angrychair (Reply #26)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 05:52 PM

30. The Fact That You Are Reading A Direct Quote From Bernie ...

...and drawing the conclusion that it is the same as what Trump has said is telling.

I provided quotes from both Bernie and Trump and just placed them side by side. Yet, you read that, and are appalled, and insist that it is all fake.

Why does this cause you fear to have to deal with facts?

If we want to promote Democratic unity, we need to stop soft pedaling similar policies to those pushed by Trump that are predicated on scapegoating immigrants and foreign trade. We can never out Trump, Trump. We should not be ashamed of our party's embrace of diversity and equal opportunity.

Put another way, do we hate Trump the person, or the policies and positions that are pushed by Trump? If a Democrat embraced the policies, would we be okay with it?

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #30)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 09:35 PM

41. We do embrace those policies

Sanders and Democrats want fair and free trade that protects the middle class and America’s ability to be competitive.

Sanders and Democrats want to protect immigrants rights

Sanders and Democrats want to protect the LGBTQ rights

Sanders and Democrats want to protect people of color rights

Sanders and Democrats want to protect women’s right to reproductive healthcare

Do we disagree on some points and how to get there? Sure.

FYI, I’ve never seen these long OPs for Donnelly or Manchin or Heitkamp.
All vote in favor of Trump’s policies at least 53% of the time or more.

They advocate for trump’s wall.
They advocate for ICE
They vote with trump at least 53% of the time.
Sanders, the man you say is like trump, only votes with trump 11.4% (https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/congress-trump-score/)

So your premise is not supported by the actual evidence.

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Response to angrychair (Reply #41)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 11:03 PM

43. Politifact: Donald Trump says he and Bernie Sanders are 'very similar' on trade

Thank you for the series of campaign statements. But let me ask you one simple question: If Bernie is not categorically against any trade deal, name a trade deal that he voted to support while he has been in Congress? Even better, given Bernie Sander's heavy focus on trade through his long career, has he ever sponsored and passed a trade bill?

If anything, what has been striking about Bernie is that he has been relatively quiet about trade during the era of Trump while Trump has initiated a series of trade fights. I am sure that Bernie will say something the moment Trump expresses some support for a trade measure, but for the most part, Trump's bellicose words on trade have largely stolen Bernie's thunder. Indeed, right after Bernie demanded that Trump nix NAFTA, Trump started threatening to pull out of NAFTA, and Bernie suddenly went quiet again.

So, while your listing of campaign-like slogans is nice, the fact of the matter is that Bernie's calling card has been to trash and scapegoat trade by voting against trade deals. I really can't see Bernie somehow being less combative on trade then Trump unless it comes to a country like Canada that is not filled with Latinos or Asians.

Finally, if we are talking about protecting immigrant rights, it would have been great if Bernie Sanders did not vote against Ted Kennedy's sponsored 2007 immigration reform bill, which would have created a path to citizenship for the immigrants whose rights you say Bernie is trying to protect.

This is why I think I think progressives have to watch for potential race baiting, scape goating, and anti-immigrant dog whistles on the left. Just a the Republican party has a racist present, the Democratic party has a racist past. We need to be vigilant against "populist" movements that scapegoat and vilify immigrants and minorities.

https://www.politifact.com/north-carolina/statements/2016/jul/27/donald-trump/donald-trump-says-he-and-bernie-sanders-are-very-s/

Donald Trump, in an effort to win over Bernie Sanders supporters, said their policies on trade are "very similar."

There are some notable differences. Sanders has always opposed normal trade with China. Trump says he’s opposed, although he outsources some of his own manufacturing to China. The two also have different ideas for dealing with NAFTA and on the role corporate tax policy plays in trade.

Yet in the grand scheme of things on the campaign trail, both men have consistently argued for protectionist trade policies as opposed to free trade. Some details differ, but they agree on the broad philosophy of opposition to free trade deals.

We rate this claim Mostly True.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #43)

Mon Nov 5, 2018, 01:13 PM

44. To be honest

trade deals are always a mixed bag. Sanders stance, his reasoning with respect to trade deals, is very different that trump’s reasoning.
Trump doesn’t actually give a shit, he is a typical Fox News driven bully that is using the power of his office and Fox News conspiracy theories, to bully other countries to get deals that different, not necessarily better. Trump doesn’t actually give a single shit if it’s better or not. As long as he can get any kind of deal he can crow about and brag how great he is.
The new NAFTA deal is not qualitatively “better” than the old one, just different.
It just gives him something to lie and brag about, that is all he cares about.

I may not agree with Sanders but I get it. His stance is one of principle, I may not go about it the way he does but I get it. He is trying to protect middle and lower class incomes by ensuring that the people most impacted by these trade deals are not getting screwed to protect corporate profits.
Has he seen a trade deal he has ever liked? No, I don’t think so. Which is where we are different. I’m not a big fan of most deals either but there is the bigger picture of global stability and interconnectivity that has to be served as well.
That said, it serves no purpose to make inflammatory comparisons between trump and Sanders. It’s neither fair nor accurate.
Doing so is not constructive nor helpful and only plays into the trolls agenda to create chaos and discord.

Given that, you are obviously entitled to your opinion and I am also obviously not going to change it so continuing this discussion is pointless.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 02:14 PM

7. Do you know Bernie is so popular in Vermont that he's spent much of this election season

campaigning for Democratic candidates in other states . . . and the Vermonters are fine with it. There was a great story in the local paper about the idiot Republican opposing him who showed up to glad hand on Main St. in Brattleboro. When asked about gun control in light of the Pittsburgh massacre, his solution was to be there with his gun to defend the victims. He pretty much got laughed out of town. If Trump and Bernie happen to "agree" on anything, it's just a fluke. Bernie's been talking this way for decades. Tiny will change his story by the end of the day.

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Response to Vinca (Reply #7)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 02:57 PM

13. Is Your Point That Attacking Immigrants and Trade Work?

Is that the reason why he is so popular in Vermont? If folks in Vermont agree with Trump/Bernie on attacking immigrants, globalization, trade and Democratic efforts to protect women and minorities, then so be it.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #13)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 03:04 PM

15. My point is to tell you that he is a beloved politician in his state and he supports Democrats.

There's really no need to gin up the Bernie hate machine a couple of days before the election. United we win, divided we lose.

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Response to Vinca (Reply #15)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 05:48 PM

28. Vermont seems to be a politically idiosyncratic state.

It almost appears as if the Green Mountain state is a place where insulated self-interest trumps all else.

On the state level, gun rights, low taxes, supporting the expansion of the military industrial complex in order to bring in revenue, and policies of shipping "problems" like the incarcerated and toxic waste out of state seem to take priority over gun, criminal justice, prison, and environmental reform, a workable single payer plan, a living minimum wage, and a paid family leave program.

I hope they finally elect a Democratic governor on Tuesday.

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Response to Vinca (Reply #7)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 05:53 PM

31. I wonder if Democratic gubernatorial challenger in VT could have used more help. N/T

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #31)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 05:59 PM

32. Democratic Unity - If We Had A Democratic Nominee...

...who was as popular in state as Bernie, supporting other Democrats, then this would have helped the challenge. Instead, Bernie runs for the Democratic nomination, then rejects it when he gets it, and runs in the General as an independent.

It would have helped if Bernie accepted the nomination, supported other Democrats in state, and tried to be part of a coalition, rather than a one-man revolution.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #32)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 06:31 PM

35. The incumbent Republican governor of Vermont vetoed a raise in the minimum wage,

the creation of a paid family leave program, and is currently "shipping" prisoners to for-profit prisons in faraway states.

That governorship should have been a priority.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 02:14 PM

8. I am not a Bernie voter, but I'm somewhat on the same page

"Globalist" can be anti-Semitic dog whistle, but it can also be an anti-capitalist one. Corporations use free trade to keep the cost of labor down, so voters can be anti-globalist without being anti-Semitic. Unfortunately, there is a long and dangerous history of conflating the two.

Identity politics has gone too far. Racism, sexism and homophobia are real and need to be countered. But a lot of times the battle is on a symbolic level - someone used the wrong word for example - rather than a substantive level of how to ensure equal opportunities and treatment. The right engages in its own toxic white identity politics, but that is no reason for us to do so.

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Response to marylandblue (Reply #8)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 04:04 PM

18. A lot of racism and bigotry

Is subtle dog whistle type stuff. Like smile to your face then deny your loan application.

The right is obsessed with so called identity politics much more so but overall Im seeing racism and bigotry getting worse so we aren't doing enough.

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Response to marylandblue (Reply #8)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 05:30 PM

24. I disagree with these heavy attacks on "globalism," "trade," and "immigration"...

...regardless of who is making them. I think the attacks on TPP were stupid and resulted in the U.S. getting marginalized in the Pacific Rim, and ceding the stage to China. Also, how can you be pro-peace and anti-trade when trade deals are often a significant disincentive to armed conflict.

Finally, I think many white male liberals buy into the false equivalency between standing up for the rights of women and minorities, and protecting voter rights, and equating that with that with Republican appeals to racism. Women and minorities are just trying to be treated equally with white males and have the same opportunities. In contrast, Trump portrays these efforts as attacking a traditional Ozzie and Harriet way of life. Worse, Republican appeals to white resentment allow Republicans to take away benefits that largely benefit working class whites in return for tax cuts to the rich. In the hey day of the civil rights movement, Lyndon Johnson, himself a white southerner, hit the nail on the head when he said this:

?w=480

The one point I do agree with you on is that both the left and the right sometimes engage in this xenophobic scapegoating of immigrants and foreign trade. The point of my post is that this is a bad policy if it comes from Bernie, as it does from Trump. Worse, by engaging in the same rhetoric and policies, we undercut our opposition to Trump.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #24)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 06:08 PM

33. I agree with most of what you said

Last edited Sun Nov 4, 2018, 06:43 PM - Edit history (1)

I wasn't against the TPP as such, but I think we need to think more about FAIR trade rather than free trade. If the other country is paying very low wages and has no environmental or safety laws, then it isn't fair trade. It hurts our workers and theirs, but in different ways. It does make money for corporations though. I think that's the concern both Bernie and Trump picked up on, but nobody else in either party did.

As for racism and sexism, it's a complex mix that has deep roots. We seem to spend a lot of time talking about symbolic issues like statues and hate crimes (which are very important in their own right), but not enough time about job and educational opportunities for everyone. This is by design, the right would rather argue over statues than fairness.

I agree that Bernie's policies probably wouldn't have worked out well, so I was always behind Clinton. But I think the next Democratic candidate is going to have to lead on those issues, come up with workable solutions and sell them to the public.

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Response to marylandblue (Reply #33)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 06:19 PM

34. I Appreciate Your Comments. It Is Tough To Have A Discussion...

...without folks simply spamming, "Stop comparing Trump to Bernie" regardless of how much I try to focus on the actual issue at hand. My concern is about the underlying issues regarding the rise in anti-immigrant resentment, as well as racism and sexism.

Some progressives think the answer is avoidance and to say that Trump's supporters are not racist, and to credit Trump for discussing working class concerns, and say that the real issue is just class, and that we just need to be focused on economic issues in a color blind way.

The problem with this so-called color blind approach is that it gives legitimizes Trump's racial appeals, and it does not highlight how Republicans use racism and sexism to not only oppress minorities and women, but white working class males.

Why would there be a reluctance to call out Trump on his racism? Well, because some progressives might want to gain support by making similar dog whistles by attacking trade with Mexico or immigration under the guise of concern for the white working class.

To promote Democratic unity, we need to avoid trafficing in white resentment ourselves. Unless we do this, we cannot effectively oppose Trump.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #34)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 06:53 PM

36. I agree, but I don't like to call Trump supporters racist

Some are very racist, but a majority are not. Tribalism is an innate feature of human thinking. Most people will always prefer "us" to "them." Demagogues take advantage of this by stirring up fear and anger against "them." During times of great social or economic change, people are very vulnerable to demagoguery.

If we call the other side names, it just makes them angrier. The best solution is to re-emphasis our shared values and humanity, and to provide solutions to what's really bothering them.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #34)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 07:37 PM

39. There is a very big difference between calling out Trump on his racism and calling

everybody who voted for Trump racists, since we kind of need to be able to talk to them. I don't know who you are referring to on the left, including Sanders, who is saying that Trump is not a racist, but it does no earthly good, when trying to have a conversation with people who do not believe they are racists(many don't), to start with accusations that they will only retreat from and won't understand.

Of course there is a bigotry that runs deep in this nation. But it isn't simply that people are racist by nature. It is ginned up. It is in built into our culture. It is a weapon of design. Maybe if we get people to see that they are being manipulated into being that weapon for the rich, and by whom and for what purpose, we might pull a percentage or two away from the GOP. The thing is, it really is class war that is at the very heart of our intractable racism problem because there is incentive from teh top to perpetuate it...A propaganda that distracts people and gets them to fight with the people the should be banding with is the divide-and-conquer, magic sauce.

And at the heart of that racism is all kinds of propagandized misconceptions and fears about safety and security and about free-loaders taking tax dollars, taking jobs, taking university slots...etc.

But there is nothing white resentment focused about not wanting to opt into trade deals that exploit the environment across the globe, and the people in those regions, in favor of giving large corporations massive legal leverage to prevent governments from even doing the right thing if it can cause companies to lose EXPECTED profits. There is nothing about getting everybody on the same side of the class war that doesn't help people of color as much as white voters, and when it comes to issues of minimum wage and those who are or are not insured, maybe you can tell me what demographics typically fall into the least paid and the least covered?

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 02:22 PM

9. There is a lot I do not like about Sanders...

... but he cannot be compared to Hair Fuhrer.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 02:38 PM

10. This is why Bernie--bless his heart

Was not the Presidential candidate in 2016, and has little chance in 2020. A clear misreading of who and what the Democratic base is, and too much reliance on what it was.

I don’t think Bernie and Trump equivalencies are particularly meaningful in the larger sense, I mean, I think Benie has more decency, but they do exist in certain examples.

To be fair, Underestimating the role of whiteness as a social dynamic and racism as the response is something many politicians and pundits do. (Trump literally manipulated this.)

Regarding casual sexism as a social norm and no big deal, while more overt sexism destroys lives and disregards that fact so many women are tired of it, have been tired of it. And we are doing something about it.

As are people of color, not accepting causal racism, and is fighting against the racism that kills them.

It’s a changing dynamic out there. Politicians need to keep up or get left behind.

That is the crux of “identity politics”

The dregs of the functional part of society voted for Trump. They apparently think liberalism is a mental illness, judging by their rhetoric. In return, I give them no such excuse. They are the ones that stare evil in the face, and invite it into their hearts and homes.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 02:47 PM

11. Trump uses his rhetoric but is policy-wise nothing like Sanders and it's absurd to think

he is. But his rhetoric about trade and jobs that Bernie really supports is what made many people in the Midwest cast their vote for him rather than Hillary. Trump is a con artist but he worked those people really well during the campaign. And did nothing for them once elected.

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Response to Nanjeanne (Reply #11)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 03:01 PM

14. That is Fair. Trump Certainly Uses Similar Rhetoric, But I Think Trump Actually...

...in some ways goes beyond Bernie in pursuing these policies.

Look at steel tariffs. Trump and Bernie both advocated for steel tariffs with a focus on China even though China is not even in the top 5 of steel importers to the US. The reason was to protect jobs of US steel workers.

However, when it came to implementing the policy, Trump followed through, but Bernie then changed course and asked that Canada be exempted, which makes no sense, since the purpose of the steel tariffs would be to protect US workers, and how does exempting Canada do that?

Otherwise, I agree on a lot of issues, Bernie has far more in common with Democrats than with Trump.

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Response to Nanjeanne (Reply #11)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 03:51 PM

16. This. Thank you.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 03:58 PM

17. You forget it was Republicans that were for free trade for the longest time

The Democrats started becoming more & more pro free trade while Trump says "we're getting killed on trade." Trade doesn't care he's corrupt and doing idiotic tariffs. Trump doesnt give a shit but he used it for the election.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #17)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 05:20 PM

21. Remember the Infamous Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act?

The Smoot–Hawley Tariff or Hawley–Smoot Tariff, was an Act implementing protectionist trade policies sponsored by Senator Reed Smoot and Representative Willis C. Hawley and was signed into law on June 17, 1930. The tariff bill was heavily supported in Herbert Hoover's presidential campaign. Smoot, Hawley and Hoover were all Republicans. The consensus view among economists and economic historians is that the passage of the Smoot–Hawley Tariff exacerbated the Great Depression.

FDR, who is the gold standard for progressive Presidents, supported legislation that rolled back the Act promoted trade deals. Yet, for some reason, it is taken as gospel that Republicans are pro-free trade and Democrats and progressives are anti-trade and anti-trade deal.



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Response to TomCADem (Reply #21)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 05:26 PM

23. I don't think FDR was perfect

I think Truman was much better especially when it came to racism. The "fair deal", etc. I mean more recent trade proposals like NAFTA or PNTR (Which Bernie Sanders himself opposed). Trump just used it for an election to win in states with a lot of deindustralization.

Actually Trump has made me a little bit more free trade myself.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #17)

Mon Nov 5, 2018, 11:38 PM

46. Respectfully, you are incorrect.

The greatest Democratic President of all, FDR was a believer in free trade.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #46)

Mon Nov 5, 2018, 11:44 PM

47. Recent years going back to Reagan the Republicans have overwhelmingly been pro trade

The agreement's supporters included 132 Republicans and 102 Democrats. The bill passed the Senate on November 20, 1993, 61–38.[23] Senate supporters were 34 Republicans and 27 Democrats

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agreement

I thought that was obvious. Trump flip flopped the Republican party on trade.

It’s a significant problem for elected Republicans, since they are almost universally free traders,” said Tony Fratto, a former Bush administration official who is now a partner at Hamilton Place Strategies, a public affairs consulting firm in Washington. “Trump’s protectionism is putting Republican members out of step with both their president and their base. That’s a tough place to be.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/09/18/business/economy/republicans-trump-trade.amp.html

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 04:56 PM

19. I have always viewed Bernie Sanders as a nativist.

In a nativist's viewpoint, we should ALWAYS do better than anyone else in the world, even when our average standard of living is much higher than 90% of the world. In a nativist's view, we should not lose jobs to anyone, even as developing nations like China and India use the very process early American industry used to become dominant (lower wages that more developed nations that are competitors, lack of concern for, and even literal destruction of the environment to promote industrial output).

The world is complex, but if Bernie or Trump want to restructure global commerce, it starts with the choices made at home. Ivanka Trump can't offer merchandise made for peanuts in sweatshops and sold at a 400% markup in the USA. Walmart and Amazon have to be forced to incubate USA manufacturers and use their size to develop demand for the manufacturers' products. Bill's Kakis is a prime example. The company makes excellent clothing, but pricy because of low volume. If Walmart or Amazon invested in increasing Bill's Kakis manufacturing capacity on one end and proving a selling portal on the other end, then Bill's Kakis unit costs will plunge, clothing would become cheaper for the consumer and workers will still be paid living wages.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #19)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 07:12 PM

38. I think its fair to use the best examples as examples we should emulate and compete with.

And Sanders global perspective would not exploit other nations to improve our lot here. quite the contrary. That's old pro-corporatist globalist thinking and it doesn't match his. It isn't that Walmart and Amazon HAVE to employ Americans, its that there should be commensurate protections for workers overseas and living wages and environmental regulations. As you say, this would raise costs, and this could reduce mass production, but waste IS a massive problem globally. We wouldn't be able to be as disposable with all that we own, and food costs would probably be high enough that maybe the industry standard of food industries wouldn't be to focus on supply of everything at every time, which is the norm now, since food waste is less of a cost to the restaurant than a couple consumer purchases that quickly make up for that waste.

Frankly, we've invested money into other nations, like Japan and Germany and Israel in the past, and all have done well for it. That's the way to make a difference globally that raises all boats. If we actually care about other nations succeeding, then the incentive should not be to exploit their natural resources and to capitalize on a workforce that will take scraps to survive. It is to help build up the infrastructure as a matter of international and global security, buffering both against climate change, pollution, and volatile politics. There's just no will to do that, and a shit load of will concentrated at the top to suck out all the wealth and leave a husk in its place.


Yeah, the world is complex, but its been obvious for decades that the choices we've been making have been the wrong ones, for the wrong reasons.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 05:12 PM

20. Come On, trump has been stealing Sanders and the

Democratic party message since he started running. One of the reasons he won is he lied about what he supported and the dummies bought it. Don't ever compare trump to Sanders or the Democratic party please unless your being sarcastic.

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Response to kacekwl (Reply #20)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 05:41 PM

25. Are You Saying That Trump Is Not Imposing Tariffs and Threatening Trade Wars?

I don't understand your point. Is it fake news that Trump has imposed tariffs and increased trade tensions? This is the one thing that Trump has actually followed through on.

Or, are you saying that it is fake news that Bernie and some progressive Democrats have demonized trade deals like NAFTA and TPP, and demonized Mexico and China?

I think this is the ugly truth that Democrats and progressives don't like to deal with, i.e., that they have sometimes engaged in dog whistles and racist rhetoric scapegoating Mexico and China trade, and immigration. Of course, the focus is different with Bernie sometimes couching his opposition as being concerned for the welfare of immigrants despite the fact that immigration rights groups have supported reform bills that Bernie opposed.

But it is difficult to have such a dialogue on this, because folks feel threatened and they say, "Don't ever compare trump to Sanders." Tell that to the folks in the Midwest who were harmed by the trade wars that both Bernie and Trump championed.

How are Democrats and progressives going to successfully oppose Trump if they are going to push Trump-lite policies on trade and immigration. We need to speak loud and clear on the importance of immigration and free trade, and reject the temptation to blame Asians and Hispanics and the countries they came from for the challenges of the white working class.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 05:23 PM

22. Bernie Sanders is not equivalent to Donald Trump

The logic in the OP is twisted.

The hatefulness towards Sanders at DU harms the Democratic Party.

This is an instance where I have far more confidence in Democrats on the ground than at DU.

Why drop a turd like this when voting is going on and days before the midterm election is done?

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Response to PufPuf23 (Reply #22)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 05:46 PM

27. It Harms The Democratic Party to Push Trump Talking Points on Trade and Immigration

How can you be against Trump, yet support his efforts to limit immigration and impose tariffs on the US trade partners? How can you effectively oppose Trump, while echoing his attacks on globalism and globalists like George Soros? Next thing you know, progressives will start echoing Trump's attacks on Amazon.

Bottom line are we trying to beat Trump or co-opt him? To promote unity, we need to do more than oppose Trump as a person, but we need to reject the scapegoat policies and rhetoric his pushes.

I did not say that Bernie Sanders is equivalent to Donald Trump. You did, which means that you read the Bernie quotes I provided as being equivalent to Trump. You drew the conclusion, not me.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #27)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 07:52 PM

40. What is Bernie Sanders saying today?

The examples you cite for Sanders are years old and it takes a major to think Trump and Sanders are like-minded or that Sanders supports Trump or the GOP. Some of the issues of concern are the same but the rhetoric and any implementation would not be the same.

Though an Independent, Sanders categorically supports the Democratic party in function (and has all his political career).

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #27)

Mon Nov 5, 2018, 11:25 PM

45. Donald Trump does not possess reverse infallibility

One approach to policy questions is to ask, "What would Donald Trump do?" and then, knee-jerk fashion, do the exact opposite.

The other approach, admittedly more difficult and time-consuming, is to examine the facts and consider the merits. In following that procedure (i.e., the rational procedure instead of the emotional one), you will sometimes discover that Trump is doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. That circumstance does not mean that we should do the wrong thing just to spite him, or just to distinguish ourselves in some voters' minds.

Yes, Trump opposed the TPP. So did Bernie Sanders, Hillary Clinton, Martin O'Malley, and a large number (though not all) of the progressive Democrats in Congress. My apologies to all you Lincoln Chafee and James Webb fans; their campaigns ended early enough that I didn't have time to get a handle on their positions concerning trade.

If you can't handle nuance like that, but insist on a complete us-versus-them mindset, may I respectfully suggest you watch basketball, football, or hockey. They're all in season right now. The opposing teams each helpfully wear different-color uniforms, so you can easily distinguish Good from Evil.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 05:51 PM

29. Here we go...

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 07:04 PM

37. You've said this all before, and its all been refuted before. Its tiring.

Last edited Sun Nov 4, 2018, 07:51 PM - Edit history (2)

There is a similarity of rhetoric on some of these issues, which is absolutely a product of
Trump piggy-backing on Sanders legitimate message that presents a needed criticism of our status quo government that often works for the wrong people, with the keys to the kingdom literally being handed away to mega-corporations as they pen the laws that are meant to regulate them.

Nothing about Trump's implementation of anything here resembles Sanders, and there's even been talk about him revisiting
trade deals that will most likely be even worse than the current ones Trump has railed against. There is nothing genuine about the substance of Trump's attacks. But he has seen what plays with the public.

The immigration bill that Sanders opposed was a visa program, which would have put immigrants seriously under the thumb of the corporations that hired them, and that sort of control is NOT good for them or us. Complete Amnesty is a far better approach, and doesn't create a separate pool of workers who will be paid at a lower wage and have no bargaining power at all...that will only have leverage applied against it via the threat of deportation. What's not to love for a big company in that?

Sanders has been clear every time he's used the term "Identity Politics" what he has meant. Feel free to begrudge him the coopting of the term and the attempt to Judo it into a meaning that specifically relates to actions that actually work for a specific group rather than "there's a special place in hell" rhetoric that revolves only around connecting a candidate to certain issues, solely because that person embodies aspects of a demographic. Its the policies that matter, and selling the window dressing without them backing it up is something we should all decry and actually do when its a Republican we're taking into account.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 09:48 PM

42. Nice timing on this post.

Just got in the mood to break out a classic?

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