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Wed Aug 15, 2012, 07:05 AM

"For the first time in my life, I will be voting against a Republican candidate for president."

This is the first post of a new DUer, who asked in the subject line "How can I send this to as many people as possible, please help", so I'm helping by posting it as its own OP. Here's the link to the original post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=194612

I'm a life-long Republican, voted for John McCain, and supported Mitt Romney as the most realistic candidate in the primaries. However, as both a Republican and more importantly an American, I did not share Rush Limbaugh's view expressed in January 2009: “I disagree fervently with the people on our side of the aisle who have caved and who say, ‘Well, I hope he succeeds'... I hope he fails.” Nor do I agree with Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell who in October of 2010, was asked what "the job" of Republicans in Congress was. McConnell answered, "The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president." We were in the middle of the greatest economic crisis since the 1930's and my party has as its main goal trying to make sure the president fails — even if the country fails right along with him. What has happened to my Republican party, this is not a sporting event, we all either win or lose together.

In the past, Republicans were pragmatic, not ideological; they would ask "does it work", not "does it fit into my theory." Ronald Reagan is known for his tax cuts, but he also pragmatically raised taxes 11 times to address the growing budget deficit, and had a good relationship with Democratic Speaker of the House Tip O'Neill. Since Reagan was pragmatic, not ideological, he compromised and worked with congress and accomplished what needed to be done to help the economy. Pragmatic non-ideological republican presidents never had a problem expanding the national government to solve national problems. Republican President Nixon created the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and Republican President Theodore Roosevelt created the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). Republican President Ford created the first federal regulatory program in education, with a program for special needs children. Republican President George Bush Sr. signed the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990, and raised taxes to fight the deficit. Republican President Eisenhower warned: "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, by the military–industrial complex" and was responsible for one of the largest Infrastructure projects in American history (Interstate Highway System). President Eisenhower also sent federal troops to Little Rock Arkansas so that discrimination against black school children would be ended. These men were not Left-wing radical hippies, but the "Tea Party movement" and their supporters in Congress would call them Socialist.

When I voted for Mitt Romney in the primaries, I believed Mitt was a moderate pragmatic Republican as was his father, George, when governor of Michigan, and as was Mitt himself when he was governor of Massachusetts. I thought Mitt had to move to the right to secure the nomination, but once he had it, he would move back to the moderate pragmatic center. Unfortunately, that has not happened; so I must reevaluate him considering this and the recent revelations about the secrecy with which he handles his financial affairs.

While I question many of President Obama's policies, I can not be sure Mitt's policies regarding the economy would have been any better. Mitt's business experience and wealth come from Wall Street, not Main Street, and I doubt he would have broken up the banks "too big to fail." As he said "The TARP (bank bailout) program was designed to keep the financial system going," and as a CEO of a private equity firm, he was a part of this financial system. If anything, given his background and avowed dislike of government regulation, I believe Mitt would have been even more hands off overseeing Wall Street and the banks "too big to fail." I know this non-involvement would NOT help a small business on Main Street. The firms which benefited from TARP, acted completely irresponsibly and contrary to the intent of the program by giving their executives huge bonuses, while restricting credit to small businesses. The problem with TARP, a program devised under President Bush, was too little regulation not too much.

I am very disappointed in the pace of the economic recovery, yet I also know this was not an ordinary business cycle recession. It was initiated by an institutional Bank Panic in 2008, akin to the 1929 Wall Street Crash, in which some of the largest and most prestigious banks and financial corporations were threatened with failure and bankruptcy (ie Lehman Brothers, Merrill Lynch, AIG, etc). By the end of 2008 the lost of potential purchasing power (decline in value of homes, stocks, IRA's etc) in the United States alone, exceeded 14.5 TRILLION DOLLARS. Thanks to an old regulation left over from the 1930's, the FDIC, the anxiety and fear did not spread to small depositors at local banks, so there was no run on these small local banks. If not for the FDIC the economic crisis we faced would have been much worse, proving not all regulation is bad. However, since these small local banks also had their assets affected by the crisis, and the large banks were not extending credit to them, they could not make loans. The flow of small business credit dried up. The prevailing fear was that this panic would feed on itself, so that the economy would continue to spiral down. Talk of a second Great Depression, with its unemployment rate of more then 25% became widespread.

It was once said, "As GM goes, so goes the nation." As people lost purchasing power, the demand for new cars dried up as people stopped buying them. This caused the car companies, including GM, to become threatened with bankruptcy. If the car companies went bankrupt, more then 100,000 additional workers would be unemployed. It was feared this would only be the tip of the iceberg as people wondered what would be the ripple effect on car part manufacturers, and what would be the effect on consumer confidence? Obama deviated from TRAP's stated purpose when he, without congressional authorization, used TARP to bail out GM and Chrysler thereby saving them from bankruptcy. Mitt would have not done this, as he stated: "Let Detroit Go Bankrupt." However, who would bid for these companies at this time of economic uncertainty, even Mitt's former company, Bain Capital, had reduced their acquisitions. I fear that China, for symbolic, political, and economic reasons might have bid to take over GM in a bankruptcy proceeding. This may seem farfetched until you realize GM sold more cars in China last year, then it sold in the United States. While I strongly oppose Obama's actions in theory, in practicality there may have been no other choice. Obama was pragmatic, he made a decision that solved the problem.

The TARP and actions by the Federal Reserve System (FED) provided approximately 3 trillion dollars for the financial system which stabilized it. Thus the financial system's private debt became public debt, and was added to the federal deficit. As opposed to this as I might be on a theoretical basis, I know as Mitt said "The TARP (bank bailout) program was designed to keep the financial system going." However, the Obama "Stimulus Program" which also included tax cuts, was completely inadequate. How can you expect to fill a 14.5 TRILLION DOLLAR HOLE caused by lost potential purchasing power with a program of less then one trillion dollars? The Stimulus should have been twice the size that it was. Between the TARP, the stimulus program, and the temporary cuts in the payroll tax, enough money was pumped into the economy to stabilize it and end the downward spiral into a depression. However these programs were not enough to "jump start" the economy, so that it would grow fast enough to reduce unemployment significantly. Yet, before I can condemn Obama I must ask, what role did my party play in preventing the "Stimulus Program" from being adequate enough to solve the economic problem.

We were told the stimulus program could not be larger because of the federal budget deficit, and like any family, when you are too far into debt you must tighten your belt and cut back on expenditures. I believe in fiscal responsibility, but I see one problem with this line of reasoning; when you have an emergency that threatens your life, you spend whatever you have to in order to recover. Once the recovery occurs, you then tighten your belt in order to get out of debt. The economic crisis of 2008 was such an emergency for the American economy. The last time we had a equivalent emergency (Great Depression/World War 2) debt as a share of the economy peaked at 112.7% of gross domestic product (GDP) in 1945. In the present emergency (Great Recession/War on Terror) debt as a share of the economy will reach roughly 77% of gross domestic product this year according to the independent and nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office.

We should not be worrying about the annual deficit. If a tax is money being removed from the economy, then government spending is money being added to the economy, and the deficit is the measure of degree the economy is being stimulated by the government. The problem with deficits, it is said, is that interest rates on government bonds will go up, yet the interest rate paid by government bonds now are the lowest they have ever been. Now it is time to rebuild America's infrastructure, as we rebuilt Europe after World War 2 with the Marshall Plan; to fix our infrastructure, from dilapidated levees to collapsing bridges and leaking dams, the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) has estimated that the country needs to spend $1.6 trillion. This construction will help the economy and the cost, based on the interest rate, will never be lower. Neither Mitt Romney nor President Obama have proposed a stimulus program of this size, both are trapped by an ideology that says deficits are bad, no matter what is the underlying circumstances.

While Mitt Romney and Barack Obama did not disagree over the need or size of the stimulus program, they do disagree on what type of stimulus would be most effective. Mitt believed taxes should be lowered for job creators who are people with high incomes, aka "the investor class" or "the rich." In theory, this money would be invested to build new business enterprises which would create jobs, thereby creating demand for good and services. However, there is no way to guarantee this money would not be sent to "tax haven offshore banks" or be invested in foreign countries for a higher return, or even hidden away with gold. These will not circulate this money into the American economy and help it grow to produce jobs. Obama believed the money should be spent on people who will purchase goods and services with any extra money they have, aka "the American consumer" or "the middle class." He lowered taxes for low and middle income workers and increased spending directly by the government to create infrastructure like roads and schools, prevent layoffs in local communities, and support unemployed consumers who are able to buy products, thereby creating demand for good and services and creating jobs. Obama would quote the famous American investor Warren Buffett who said "the only reason why I'm going to hire is if there's more demand." Mitt's approach was "investor" or "supply side" driven; Obama's approach was "consumer" or "demand side" driven.

I can use myself as an example since I am considered a successful businessman. I have never made a business decision based on taxes. They never deterred me from expanding my business when I saw an opportunity to meet a demand by consumers. Taxes never took 100% of any additional income I made by expanding my business. They were just a cost of doing business like any other necessary cost. They paid for services my business and I, as an individual, needed, such as policemen, firemen, and road maintenance. On the other hand, while I always appreciate lower taxes, they would not effect how I ran my business. If my taxes were lowered, but there was no additional demand by consumers, I would not expand my business. However, I would take a nice European vacation and see Paris or Rome, or buy a Mercedes-Benz rather then a Ford, or perhaps buy a second home on a Caribbean island and open up a bank account there. Like any successful businessman, I am not ideological, I am pragmatic; I just wish government behaved the same way.

Mitt Romney has said "entitlement programs" such as Social Security should be cut back or made voluntary. This is necessary since these programs make up most of the budget of the United States and the deficit cannot be dealt with unless we change these programs. Making Social Security voluntary for young workers raises several questions. Should it be replaced with the equivalent to an "Individual Retirement Account" of some type? This idea would be the death of Social Security as we now know it. Would this IRA be the equal to Social Security, in any case of disability of a young worker? Will there be some type of guarantee against "market risk" for this replacement IRA? How would this change effect low pay workers who might not be able to contribute much money to an IRA type of account? Social Security is a guaranteed life-time benefit, what happens if a person outlives their IRA account? President Obama has said Social Security should be maintained, but reformed. Among the suggestions that have been put forward by study groups are: the retirement age being extended, perhaps to age 72, the cost of living adjustment should be reduced or eliminated, or the benefits paid could be reduced. For many Americans, Social Security is the biggest part of their post-retirement income, it is the safety net we all use, so the effect of any changes to the program could have a huge impact on people's lives.

The Social Security and Medicare programs are called "entitlement programs" because people pay a special tax in order to be "entitled" to them. In the case of "Social Security" it is the "FICA Payroll Tax." This tax can be thought of as being the equivalent to an insurance premium. Under the present "FICA Payroll Tax" system, the person who earns $110,000 pays the same exact amount in taxes as the person who earns $1,100,000, or $10,000,000. Mitt Romney had an income of $21.6 million in 2010; instead of a FICA tax of $1,404,000 without the cap, he paid $7,150. President Obama had an income of $1.72 million in 2010; instead of a FICA tax of $112,327 without the cap, he paid $7,150. The actual FICA tax rate for the ditch-digger, garbageman, or teacher is 10 or 100 or 1000 times that for a CEO, corporate financier, or government official. Rather then making it voluntary or reducing benefits or delaying the retirement age, shouldn't we be talking about ending the $110,000 cap on incomes that are taxed, while capping the present maximum benefit, and maintaining the cost of living adjustment? Adopting this program would mean the system would be fairer since the tax would then become a defined flat tax for all Americans rather then the present regressive tax. The Social Security trust fund should be put in a "locked box" which is not used as part of the General Federal Government Budget. The new taxes collected would help reduce the budget deficit by relieving the problem with the Social Security trust fund in the future. Perhaps if the increase in revenue was great enough, the FICA tax rate could be reduced for everyone. However, neither Mitt nor Obama has suggested this type of solution.

Uninsured medical costs was the biggest reason people filed for bankruptcy. In response to the problem of millions of Americans having no health insurance and being unable to pay for medical care if they got sick; President Obama proposed and passed the "Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act of 2009" (Obamacare). However, this was not a single payer system, based on Medicare, but rather it was based on a plan supported and signed by Mitt Romney in 2006 when he was Governor of Massachusetts. Both programs had individual mandates to require people without health insurance to purchase it from private companies, in many cases with financial assistance from the government. This makes no sense to me, why not expand Medicare to cover everyone. Why force people to buy insurance from the hodgepodge of insurance companies, each with their own administrative costs and policies, trying to maximize profits? The cost of this bureaucracy means that medical care in the United States costs almost twice that of any other country with a single payer system. Why not have the insurance companies offer a Medic-gap type and gold plated wrap-around policies? The government provides a safety-net floor which people can voluntarily build on.

Expanding Medicare to include all Americans would also be a benefit to Medicare; it will financially stabilize what is now the high-risk pool of the health insurance industry. A substantial majority of Medicare enrollees – roughly 87% have at least one chronic condition, and nearly half have three or more. The people covered by Medicare include 1) people age 65 and older, who are the most likely to have Heart Attacks, Strokes, Cancer, and other diseases related to age; 2) people who have permanent disabilities and receive Social Security Disability Insurance; 3) people with end-stage kidney disease which requires maintenance dialysis or a kidney transplant; 4) people with ALS (Lou Gehrig’s disease) which is a slow wasting away of the body. The common thread between both disease specific groups is, they are expensive to treat and there is no cure. By expanding Medicare to include everyone, you would be adding 10's of millions of people under 65, the vast majority of whom are healthy and seldom require medical care. These people would have the security of knowing if they did get seriously ill, they would be treated without the rigmarole of complex rules and regulations regarding pre-existing conditions, pre-authorization, and Coordination of benefits. Medicare would benefit from the inflow of low-risk money which otherwise would go to pay premiums to private for-profit insurance companies. Medicare spreads the financial risk associated with illness across society to protect everyone, and thus has a somewhat different social role from private insurers, which must manage their risk portfolio to guarantee their own solvency. Medicare is a pragmatic program that works and is supported by a vast majority of Americans; however ideologues would call it socialism.

To those who question whether I am a Republican, let me remind them, there was once a time when we were a "big tent" party. I believe in "State Rights" in regards to the "social issues." These "social issues" - abortion, same-sex marriage, medical use of marijuana - are issues of differing cultures and should be addressed on the local state level. No one likes a foreign culture jammed down their throat, that is why these issues are so divisive. Socially I am conservative, economically I am pragmatic. However, since I am not a woman, homosexual, sick, or very religious; the social issues are not nearly as important as the economic issues. I believe in smaller government only to the extent we had smaller corporations, since in many ways corporations have more control over our lives then the government does. Government power is the only counterbalance to corporate power, and at least we have some input into what the government does by our vote. We no longer live in a capitalist society, we live in a corporatist society. Therefore, I was spooked when Mitt Romney said "Corporations are people" and implied they should be given the same constitutional rights as citizens.

Those who advocate a new age of austerity, like the Romney/Ryan budget, will cite Greece with an unemployment rate of 22.6% and say Greece is a nation we are sure to follow if we do not tighten our belt and reduce government services. They also cite Spain's 24.3%, Portugal's 15.2% and Italy's 10.2% unemployment rate. However, what they do not say is that in each of these countries tax avoidance seems to be a national sport. As a Republican I can not support Mitt Romney because everything, from his refusal to reveal his taxes to offshore bank accounts in tax havens with strong bank secrecy laws, seem to indicate he is a tax avoider. I do not agree when Mitt Romney says that if he paid more taxes than were required, he wouldn't be qualified to be president. I think that if he paid a few more dollars in taxes then he had to, as I have done, it would be admirable. Mitt is a part of the problem, not the solution.

These countries have also had austerity budgets for a number of years, even as their economic problems have only gotten worse. Many economists now feel that, in fact, the austerity programs are the main cause of the economic problems.

On the other hand, economies in many countries are doing quite well, such as: Germany which has un-employment rate of 5.4%, Austria 4.3%, Norway 3.0%, Netherlands 4.2%, Switzerland 2.9%, Japan 4.1%, Australia 4.9% and so on. So what do they have in common, and what are they doing differently when compared to the United States?

1- They have Universal socialized health care, and while all their people have health care they spend a small fraction of what United States businesses and Government spend on health care.

2- They have Universal Education, which means you can get an education up to your PhD pretty much for free. This means their people are trained for the jobs of the future.

3- They have much higher taxes than in United States on someone making more than 250 thousand dollars, for example in Germany 45%.

4- They have more generous unemployment benefits than in the United States. This stabilizes demand when people are laid-off from their jobs.

5- They have a more unionized workforce than in the United States. The unions provide hands-on apprentice programs for training new workers in manufacturing industries.

6- They do not spend Trillions of dollars on a gargantuan military, and unnecessary wars, which drains their budgets and keeps needed infrastructure from being repaired and built.

So maybe these countries should be our models for the future, rather then Greece

Mitt's father established the precedent of presidential candidates releasing their Tax returns in 1968. He released 12 years of them, saying "One year could be a fluke, perhaps done for show, and what mattered in personal finance was how a man conducted himself over the long haul." When Mitt's campaign was asked to release more then two years of returns, it responded “We’ve given all you people need to know" and has refused to give out additional information, even as many Republicans requested. People, including myself, are starting to ask "What is Mitt trying to hide?"

As Newt Gingrich put it, “I don’t know of any American president who has had a Swiss bank account.” But Mitt Romney also has accounts in the tax havens of Luxembourg, Bermuda, and the Cayman Islands. The Cayman Islands have a bank secrecy law so strong that a person can be jailed for up to four years, just for asking about account information. Mitt's desire for secrecy is so great that one time he neglected to include a Swiss bank account on required financial disclosure forms. Perhaps, it was because the Swiss account constituted a bet against the U.S. dollar, something no presidential candidate would want to reveal. When asked about it, Romney’s campaign spokeswoman, Andrea Saul, said that the candidate’s failure to include his Swiss account in the financial disclosures were merely a “trivial inadvertent issue.” From 1984 to 1999, taxpayers were allowed to put just $2,000 per year into a tax-free I.R.A., and $30,000 annually into a different kind of plan he may have used. Given these annual contribution ceilings, how can his I.R.A. possibly contain up to $102 million, as his financial disclosures now suggest? I am not claiming Mitt engaged in money-laundering or any other illegal activity, I agree with Mitt that he may have never broken the law. If there is a problem, it may very well be in the laws, not in his behavior. As Mitt said “I pay all the taxes that are legally required, not a dollar more.” However as Lee Sheppard, a contributing editor at the trade publication "Tax Notes" said, “When you are running for president, you might want to err on the side of overpaying your taxes, and not chase every tax gimmick that comes down the pike.” Has Mitt Romney acted as a model for all of us, the way a president should?

Why is Bain important? We must not forget a major contributing cause of the Financial Crisis of 2008 was the filing of false or misleading documents with the SEC. This is no small matter; since 2009 the SEC has collected fines of over 3 Billion dollars for this violation from financial institutions such as, among others: Bank of America, Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, Merrill Lynch, Credit Suisse, J.P. Morgan, and UBS. Even if Mitt Romney actually left all operational control of Bain Capital in 1999, he sanctioned and acquiesced to the filing of false and misleading documents with the SEC until 2002. While this violation may not rise to the level of these other institutions, it does indicate a certain attitude towards these filings: The complete and truthful disclosure of all facts is not important. This was an attitude all too prevalent in the financial community prior to 2009, and all of us paid the price.

Is full disclosure to the SEC one of the regulations Mitt would do away with? What about other regulations overseeing the financial community; Wall Street and the banks too big to fail? If you put a fox in charge of the chicken coop, you have a problem for the chickens. Will Mitt's election be the equivalent of that for the small investor? As a small investor, and businessman, I can not take that chance; I have been burnt once by a government that did not believe in regulation, and was asleep at the wheel. The sad thing is that Bain was first brought up by a candidate who wanted to colonize the moon, and the false filing was never mentioned. If this was discovered earlier, I would not have supported Mitt in the primaries and Republicans may have had a different candidate. Perjury is perjury. It was ethically and morally equal to saying "I never had sex with that woman" only worse since it was related to a public institution, not sex; and there could be no equivocation since the two official documents Mitt signed exactly contradict each other 100%. He can not flip-flop between these two documents.

Mitt has said “I would like to have campaign spending limits”, however his most recent position is “the American people (and corporations) should be free to advocate for their candidates and their positions without burdensome limitations.” The necessity of spending limits became apparent during the Republican primaries. The ability of one candidate to outspend his rivals by 5, 6, 7, 10 times distorts the electoral system. Good men could be destroyed by a barrage of false negative ads, and lack the ability to fight back. It is no longer a level playing field where the best man emerges victorious. Do we want a system where it is possible to indirectly buy elective office?

These are the reasons that for the first time in my life, I will be voting against a Republican candidate for president.

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Reply "For the first time in my life, I will be voting against a Republican candidate for president." (Original post)
CJCRANE Aug 2012 OP
live love laugh Aug 2012 #1
just1voice Aug 2012 #83
tridim Aug 2012 #94
LittleGirl Aug 2012 #2
ewagner Aug 2012 #3
BlueJazz Aug 2012 #4
rurallib Aug 2012 #5
Bluenorthwest Aug 2012 #6
CJCRANE Aug 2012 #8
viguy007 Aug 2012 #158
CJCRANE Aug 2012 #159
viguy007 Aug 2012 #161
Squinch Aug 2012 #12
DeeDeeNY Aug 2012 #43
just1voice Aug 2012 #85
DURHAM D Aug 2012 #113
Douglas Carpenter Aug 2012 #116
viguy007 Aug 2012 #117
Albert_Wentworth Aug 2012 #123
hlthe2b Aug 2012 #124
Ruby the Liberal Aug 2012 #131
Albert_Wentworth Aug 2012 #132
Ruby the Liberal Aug 2012 #133
lunatica Aug 2012 #146
Squinch Aug 2012 #7
CabCurious Aug 2012 #9
CJCRANE Aug 2012 #11
CabCurious Aug 2012 #14
Jackpine Radical Aug 2012 #33
CabCurious Aug 2012 #37
Squinch Aug 2012 #34
CabCurious Aug 2012 #36
Blanks Aug 2012 #46
CabCurious Aug 2012 #49
Jackpine Radical Aug 2012 #110
CabCurious Aug 2012 #136
Poiuyt Aug 2012 #151
outsideworld Aug 2012 #134
CJCRANE Aug 2012 #145
barbtries Aug 2012 #25
CabCurious Aug 2012 #28
truebluegreen Aug 2012 #45
CabCurious Aug 2012 #48
RC Aug 2012 #74
CabCurious Aug 2012 #91
CabCurious Aug 2012 #92
laundry_queen Aug 2012 #144
CabCurious Aug 2012 #154
laundry_queen Aug 2012 #156
riverbendviewgal Aug 2012 #89
datasuspect Aug 2012 #50
Post removed Aug 2012 #87
Son of Gob Aug 2012 #90
datasuspect Aug 2012 #101
Son of Gob Aug 2012 #103
Son of Gob Aug 2012 #105
CabCurious Aug 2012 #125
datasuspect Aug 2012 #130
CabCurious Aug 2012 #137
Ruby the Liberal Aug 2012 #58
rockingirl Aug 2012 #96
CabCurious Aug 2012 #127
Ruby the Liberal Aug 2012 #128
CabCurious Aug 2012 #135
Ruby the Liberal Aug 2012 #139
CabCurious Aug 2012 #140
Ruby the Liberal Aug 2012 #143
CabCurious Aug 2012 #155
davidthegnome Aug 2012 #69
RC Aug 2012 #77
CabCurious Aug 2012 #126
DURHAM D Aug 2012 #104
Barry2012 Aug 2012 #10
Inuca Aug 2012 #18
VWolf Aug 2012 #20
CabCurious Aug 2012 #23
barbtries Aug 2012 #26
HERVEPA Aug 2012 #32
NOLALady Aug 2012 #38
DURHAM D Aug 2012 #106
HughBeaumont Aug 2012 #42
freshwest Aug 2012 #55
Barry2012 Aug 2012 #70
Ruby the Liberal Aug 2012 #93
Quantess Aug 2012 #141
riverbendviewgal Aug 2012 #84
randr Aug 2012 #13
just1voice Aug 2012 #86
SnowCritter Aug 2012 #15
ananda Aug 2012 #16
CabCurious Aug 2012 #17
progressoid Aug 2012 #35
JI7 Aug 2012 #107
Skidmore Aug 2012 #19
Lucy Goosey Aug 2012 #21
4_TN_TITANS Aug 2012 #22
Vietnameravet Aug 2012 #24
PatSeg Aug 2012 #27
mikekohr Aug 2012 #29
sinkingfeeling Aug 2012 #30
grantcart Aug 2012 #31
Marrah_G Aug 2012 #39
Blanks Aug 2012 #51
pink-o Aug 2012 #40
Raffi Ella Aug 2012 #41
johnny156 Aug 2012 #44
Jamaal510 Aug 2012 #64
Sheepshank Aug 2012 #47
datasuspect Aug 2012 #52
fredamae Aug 2012 #53
zzaapp Aug 2012 #54
kestrel91316 Aug 2012 #56
DonRedwood Aug 2012 #60
Historic NY Aug 2012 #57
Strega Ribiera Aug 2012 #59
beveeheart Aug 2012 #61
EC Aug 2012 #62
southernyankeebelle Aug 2012 #63
rtracey Aug 2012 #65
polichick Aug 2012 #66
Bainbridge Bear Aug 2012 #67
whatchamacallit Aug 2012 #95
wickerwoman Aug 2012 #114
marlakay Aug 2012 #68
Smickey Aug 2012 #71
Smickey Aug 2012 #147
Smickey Aug 2012 #148
Care Acutely Aug 2012 #72
pnwmom Aug 2012 #73
Cognitive_Resonance Aug 2012 #75
amuse bouche Aug 2012 #76
Richard D Aug 2012 #78
Uncle Joe Aug 2012 #79
samsingh Aug 2012 #80
just1voice Aug 2012 #81
riverbendviewgal Aug 2012 #82
Xyzse Aug 2012 #88
Raster Aug 2012 #97
4 t 4 Aug 2012 #99
Raster Aug 2012 #102
McCamy Taylor Aug 2012 #98
4 t 4 Aug 2012 #100
NashvilleLefty Aug 2012 #108
steve2470 Aug 2012 #109
airplaneman Aug 2012 #111
TheKentuckian Aug 2012 #112
Astazia Aug 2012 #115
AnnieK401 Aug 2012 #118
CJCRANE Aug 2012 #119
viguy007 Aug 2012 #121
CJCRANE Aug 2012 #122
outsideworld Aug 2012 #149
CJCRANE Aug 2012 #150
outsideworld Aug 2012 #120
trocar Aug 2012 #129
rjlobo422 Aug 2012 #138
Jack Sprat Aug 2012 #142
jwhitesj Aug 2012 #152
CJCRANE Aug 2012 #153
brooklynite Aug 2012 #157
viguy007 Aug 2012 #160

Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 07:51 AM

1. Wow. I have to post this on my FB account. Very valuable and informative. nt

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Response to live love laugh (Reply #1)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 03:38 PM

83. Facebook has at least 83 million fake users, who's going to read it?

 

seriously.

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Response to just1voice (Reply #83)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 05:22 PM

94. The 750 million or so real users.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 07:55 AM

2. Damn that was a long read but

it's Kicked, Recommended and bookmarked !!!! I stand now and applaud the author for it. Brilliant really.

Thanks for sharing.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 07:56 AM

3. Wow....

whether the OP is truly a Republican or not...great points and great arguments against supporting Rmoney

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 08:06 AM

4. Definitely the longest post I've EVER read on DU but every word was pure gold. Bravo !

 

The six points he wrote about universal health care, universal education etc should be on billboards across this land. It would wake up Americans to how much they are missing in terms of Quality of life.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 08:08 AM

5. First may I say Welcome to DU viguy007!



That is one heckuva way to start. Whew what a post!. Would love to reprint on blogforiowa if possible.

Anyway, I hope you have a long and fruitful stay here.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 08:11 AM

6. what a rotten person that is...State's Rights rules Civil Rights?

 

Yeah, I know. You straights think that means 'just the gay rights'. This is cute, he's voting 'against' Mitt. Sure. Also promoting anti equality bullshit here.
" I believe in "State Rights" in regards to the "social issues." These "social issues" - abortion, same-sex marriage, medical use of marijuana - are issues of differing cultures and should be addressed on the local state level. No one likes a foreign culture jammed down their throat, that is why these issues are so divisive. Socially I am conservative, economically I am pragmatic. However, since I am not a woman, homosexual, sick, or very religious; the social issues are not nearly as important as the economic issues."

This person is a Republican and a right wing anti equality propagandists. Human rights are 'social issue to be addressed by States'. Fuck that shit. Abortion up to the States?
What an awful and long winded piece of ignorance and cold self interest by a full of himself bigot.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #6)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 08:36 AM

8. The conversation continues and the journey continues.

The post is mainly about economic policies, on which the poster has the most insight.

The poster has been a lifelong Republican, so it's not surprising that they still have some way to go on some issues. The poster didn't say he was anti-equality, just that it's not his fight, which may be an apathetic attitude but doesn't necessarily mean the poster is against people fighting for their rights, just that it's not his focus at the moment.

He's come this far, and I can understand why you're angry, but it's possible that he'll continue to make progress on his political journey.

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #8)

Fri Aug 24, 2012, 01:02 AM

158. Thank you for your help, this is new post you can help me with , its title is: A Battle Cry

 

I love the country in which I was born, the United States of America, it is a special place and I would do anything to defend her. I believed “my country, may she always be in the right; but my country, right or wrong, my country.” This is why during the Vietnam War, although I had a student deferment, I volunteered for the draft (and almost caused my Mom to have a heart attack.) I have traveled the world, and been in many places; including where there was a soldier on every street corner, armed with an AK-47 assault rifle, making sure people did not speak their mind. So what makes my country so special?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." ... "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

These words were the seeds from which an exceptional nation grew; a nation where the people were the sovereign, not some king by divine right. A nation where people could pursue happiness within the framework of promoting the general welfare; for only this could establish justice and secure the blessings of Liberty for ourselves and our children. Only in this, is the United States exceptional: We the People have the oldest democracy in the world, we can be tranquil in knowing that our government only gets its powers from the consent of the governed, and we all have an equal voice in what it does.

To preserve and protect this exceptional nation over the years, many good and brave men and women have given their lives. Now it is our turn to preserve and protect this exceptional nation. Not by giving up our lives, or carrying a gun, but rather like Thomas Jefferson, picking up a pen. "It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."

There is a man, Mitt Romney, who is running to be our President, the leader of this exceptional nation of ours. Yet he seems to change his stance on issues depending upon who he running against. Does he believe in anything, or is he only seeking power? This is a man who says that if he paid more taxes than were required, he wouldn't be qualified to be president. As Lee Sheppard, a contributing editor at the trade publication "Tax Notes" said, “when you are running for president, you might want to err on the side of overpaying your taxes, and not chase every tax gimmick that comes down the pike.”

I quote Mitt Romney: “I pay all the taxes that are legally required, not a dollar more”; "I'm not familiar precisely with what I said, but I'll stand by what I said, whatever it was"; "Let Detroit Go Bankrupt"; "I'm not concerned about the very poor"; "I like being able to fire people"; "Corporations are people". Mitt would brag that he was a great businessman and we should vote for him because of this; he could turn around the economy. Yet, when it was shown his company outsourced jobs to other countries, fired employees and drove companies into bankruptcy, he stated he was not responsible, for these things happened after he left the company in 1999. However, official SEC documents, which he signed, indicate was CEO of his company until 2002. Either he lied to the SEC, which is perjury, or he is lying to us, we the people he wants to vote for him. He has secret bank accounts in the offshore tax havens of Switzerland, Luxembourg, Bermuda, and the Cayman Islands. Mitt's father, George, released 12 years of tax returns when he ran for President, saying "One year could be a fluke, perhaps done for show, and what mattered in personal finance was how a man conducted himself over the long haul." When Mitt's campaign was asked to release more then two years of returns, it responded “We’ve given all YOU PEOPLE need to know" and has refused to give out additional information.

Does Mitt sound like a man of the people, a patriot, who would brave the freezing and starvation of Valley Forge, charge up Omaha Beach during the Invasion of Normandy (D-Day), or slog through the mosquito infested jungles of Viet Nam? Or does Mitt sound like he owes us nothing, and he deserves the presidency as if anointed thru the divine right of kings? After all, he says we should vote for him, yet refuses to tell us how he got enough money to live like a king? His attitude is: he owes "We, the people" nothing. YOU PEOPLE, just trust me, I am not a crook. We can question all we want about his taxes, if for no other reason then to be educated as to how our tax system really works, but we will get no answers. What does this say about whose interests Mitt will be looking out for, if he is elected president?

Yet, it is not Mitt Romney, the man, who is so much a threat to democracy, but rather the processes he uses to get elected. I am a Republican, but I am an American first. I love this country, but I watched in despair as democracy in the Republican primaries was desecrated by the power of money. In state after state, Mitt and his affiliated PAC's outspent his opponents by 6,7, 10 times, using negative ads to grind them to a bloody pulp so that they could not be recognized for who they really were. Adolf Hitler said "The victor will never be asked if he told the truth"..."Success is the sole earthly judge of right and wrong."

Remember, Richard Nixon was impeached for actions he took trying to hide a secret $100,000 political slush fund; now Mitt's campaign regularly reports receiving a 100 million dollars per month officially. This does not include the support he gets from the PAC's, super PAC's, and 501(c)(4) organizations. Some of these groups are not limited in the size and source of contributions nor required to disclose their donors publicly. Does anyone think a person or corporation will give more the a million dollars to support a candidate, and not expect something in return. This is legalized bribery; am I the only one outraged?

However, the Supreme Court’s decision in Citizens United v. FEC said money is just a form of free speech, so anybody can give whatever amount they want to a super-PAC to buy 1000's of 30 and 60 second television commercials. These ads will be repeated over and over again with catchy slogans, jingles, and images, lots of accusations and lies, but little discussion of the details of policies enacted if elected. That is because these ads are meant to evoke emotion, not understanding. As Adolf Hitler said: "It is not truth that matters, but victory."... "Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it." ... "I use emotion for the many and reserve reason for the few." I would venture to say that the man who has a million dollars to give to a political campaign, has a little more influence on its outcome, then the man who can only give his one vote. I do not believe this is what Thomas Jefferson had in mind when he wrote, "all men are created equal." While being able to give unlimited money to influence the political process may only be the exercise of free speech in theory, in practicality, it undermines the very foundation on which this nation was built.

We often take the exceptional nature of our nation for granted. For most of us, except for the two months before an election, we ignore what goes on in the world of government and politics. We are low information voters; we vote based on the way we feel about a candidate. Make no mistake, every 30 and 60 second television ad is a piece of propaganda, intended not to inform, but only to manipulate how a person feels about a candidate. As Adolf Hitler stated: "All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach."... "If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed." It looks like Mitt Romney will have in excess of 100 million dollars more for television advertising then Barack Obama , and who know how much additional money will be spent by the PAC's supporting Mitt and attacking Obama. For a month before the election, the airwaves will be endlessly filled with focus-group tested ads saying Obama is a nice guy who is ineffective and incompetent; and ads with images of Mitt sitting at a desk, looking "presidential," or feel-good images of Mitt's family, along with flags, and sunrises. These ads will be selling a candidate instead of fast foods or beer, and contain just as much real information. No matter what the polls say, in the weeks people are finalizing their vote, President Obama is at a severe disadvantage; more then 100 million dollars worth.

However, before I continue, I would like to add a personal note. There are those who question if I am a Republican and why I did not identify myself in my last post (found at http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021135316#post120 also now at http://CommonSenseFor.US ). I can only assume they do not remember, or are not aware of, President Nixon's "ENEMIES LIST", which was used to harass ordinary American citizens who he felt were his enemy. This was one of the reasons he was impeached in what is now known as the "Watergate" scandal. I fear Richard Nixon and Mitt Romney are cut from the same cloth. Remember, the only negative things we knew about Nixon before he was elected president were: he worked as an aide to Senator Joe McCarthy; he gave a maudlin speech about his dog "Checkers" and his wife's cloth coat; and he did not shave very well. My fear about Mitt Romney may be baseless, for no man can see into another's man heart. But his actions in the primaries; his secrecy and attitude when questioned about his finances; the lack of compassion and empathy indicated by his teen-age bullying and tying his dog to the roof of his car for 12 hours; and his seeming lack of core values in an endless chase for political power; these all add up in a very troubling way. I know I will seem to be a traitor to my fellow Republicans (including some of my friends) if they knew my name, but feeling the way I do, I would rather be a traitor to my party, then a traitor to my country.

I fear a nightmare scenario for the United States if Mitt Romney is elected President. I assume he will implement the Ryan budget plan, which will cut taxes for the "investor class" (aka the rich), while reducing government spending by cutting programs that benefit the poor, working and middle class families. Since money knows no nationality, and owes no loyalty but to itself, most of the tax cut the rich receive will be invested in emerging market countries, where it will get the greatest return, or deposited in the secret bank accounts of "offshore tax havens", or hidden away in gold. This money will not circulate through the American economy, create demand, and help the economy grow.

Meanwhile, since Romney promised not to increase the deficit, the budgets would be slashed for programs like: crop insurance for farmers, natural disaster relief, food inspection, interstate highway repair and maintenance, school nutrition programs, unemployment insurance, student financial aid, food stamps, employment training, "Head Start", "aid for dependent children", etc. Cuts in federal grants to local and state governments would mean the layoff of policemen, firemen, and teachers. Of course, all these things and people consume "goods and services" which employ people to meet this demand. To the extent demand is now lessened, employers will cut back and factories may close, jobs will be lost, and the unemployment rate will rise. Rather then the agonizingly slow but steady economic growth we presently have, the economy will begin to shrink, we will be in a "double dip" recession.

As the economy shrinks and people lose jobs, their ability to make their mortgage payments will decrease, and bank foreclosures will increase. They will lose their homes. They will be looking for help, but they will get none from Mitt Romney, since he believes "don't try and stop the foreclosure process. Let it run its course and hit the bottom." But we must always remember the statistics we read about unemployment and foreclosures are not just numbers. They represent real men, women, and children, who, maybe for the first time in their lives question: “Will I eat tonight and where will I sleep?” They are more afraid then they have ever been before in their lives. Without any government help, what will those families be forced to do in order to survive? Prostitute themselves, steal, become criminals in order to put a roof over their head and food on the table for themselves and their children. Is this what Mitt wants, because in some cases, this is what he will get.

But the nightmare continues: Mitt Romney has said, "I have indicated, day one, I will issue an executive order identifying China as a currency manipulator. We'll bring an action against them in front of the WTO (World Trade Organization) for manipulating their currency, and we will go after them." Sounds good until you read what that same WTO states on their Website "The short-sighted protectionist view is that defending particular sectors against imports is beneficial. But that view ignores how other countries are going to respond. The longer term reality is that one protectionist step by one country can easily lead to retaliation from other countries. [For example], the trade war of the 1930s when countries competed to raise trade barriers in order to protect domestic producers and retaliate against each others’ barriers. This worsened the Great Depression."

Will Mitt Romney's actions towards China, if elected president, ignite a fire he may not be able to control? Europe is economically frail, already many countries are in a recession because they adopted the equivalent of the Romney/Ryan budget. Austerity in those countries has only caused the financial condition of the people to worsen, and created political instability and rioting in the streets. At this point, the possible starting a trade war between the world's two largest economies would be a unwarranted risk. A trade war, when combined with Europe's fragile economy, and the downturn in the American economy caused by the Romney/Ryan budget, would result in another economic depression, not just a severe recession.

While the preceding facets of my nightmare are based on facts, what follows is informed speculation. The Romney/Ryan budget has increased economic inequality, in that, it gave significant tax cuts to the rich while cutting benefits such as unemployment insurance, student financial aid, food stamps, employment training, "Head Start", school nutrition programs, etc, mostly used by the poor. This will revive and reinvigorate the "Occupy Wall Street" movement, perhaps to the extent where the size of its demonstrations will match those against the war in Vietnam. Because of the economic downturn, and Romney's policies which are seen as causing it (unlike Obama who was seen as inheriting it from the Bush administration), the demonstrators will be angrier then they were in the first wave of the "Occupy Wall Street" movement. Some of the demonstrations may deteriorate into riots, as they have done in London, Greece, and Spain. These will only be splinter groups but media reports, especially Fox News, will focus on them.

President Obama was "hands off" regarding the first wave of "Occupy Wall Street" (OWS) movement and appeased them by using a more populist tone in his speeches. However Romney will not do that, since he will be pressured by his "hard right" supporters, including Rush Limbaugh, into declaring the "Occupy Wall Street" demonstrators are terrorist, because of the riots, and evoking the "Patriot Act." (As an aside, many of the illegal actions in regards to the anti-war movement for which Nixon was impeached in Watergate, would today be perfectly legal under the "Patriot Act." The "Occupy Wall Street" encampments would then be swept clear and destroyed by soldiers, like what happened to the encampment of the "Bonus Marchers" in 1932. At that time soldiers with fixed bayonets and hurling tear gas destroyed an encampment of 10,000 people. Two babies died and nearby hospitals were overwhelmed with casualties.

America would be bitterly divided, especially if any demonstrators were killed by soldiers, as they were at "Kent State" during an anti-Vietnam War protest. And as president, we would have a man who is closely tied to Wall Street and corporate financiers, in fact he was one; ruthless in the way he handled his business (Bain) and political campaigns; has no problem being deceptive, to either us or the SEC (as to when he left Bain), along with for many years not disclosing a Swiss bank account on government financial disclosure forms; and is completely opaque and secretive in whatever he does.

But what is most terrifying of all, is as Martin Luther King Jr reminded us, "We must never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal." Both Hitler and Mussolini, in a time of political and economic distress, in a sloppy and flawed political process, achieved office democratically. It was only after taking office, did they reinterpret and expand the powers they had, becoming a dictator. We say it could never happen here, but as the little known "plot against FDR" shows, it is not unthinkable. Thus my nightmare ends.

You may think I'm paranoid, and I can only hope you're right. However, many economist believe that if Romney does what he says he wants to, in regards to the budget and China, the economic portion of my nightmare will become a reality. As far as the political portion of my nightmare, the very fact that I can make a coherent, cogent and credible scenario, is scary enough.

It is these two factors that caused a life-long Republican,to decide he could not only not vote for Romney, but also campaign against him by writing my first letter ( http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021135316#post149 now also at http://CommonSenseFor.US ). The only reason that letter was posted at a Democratic blog was that it kept on being taken down at Republican blogs. Its main purpose had been to encourage moderates to take back the Republican party. As I said I supported Mitt in the early primaries as a moderate Republican, after all, he had been the governor of Massachusetts, and to be elected there as a Republican meant that he had to be a moderate. It was only after Bain was brought up in the Republican primaries did I really start to examine the man I planned to be voting for. I was your typical low-information voter. It is because of voters like me that the money to buy 30 and 60 second commercials is so important.

However, when I was young I was very active in the Republican party. Because of what I say in my posts people have questioned if I am a Republican. I would like to answer that now. I have been a Republican my whole life, and have a voters registration card dated in 1993 indicating that fact. Politically I am a nobody, who even if I shouted my name from the rooftop, it would still be meaningless to most (99.99%) people. Other then being an activist in College Republicans 40 years ago, there is no public record of me. I am one citizen, one voter who happened to vote Republican my whole life, and decided to vote for the other guy this time around. There is nothing extraordinary about that, it happens in every election, in both directions. I just happen to write well, and took the time to document why I made this decision. I reveled nothing new, I just took what is already in the public record and wove it into a coherent tapestry. Watergate ruined political activism for me, while I was working my heart out for a candidate who I believed in, he was abusing and shredding the Constitution. I decided that I had better things to do with my life, so I became "Joe Private Citizen." A voter, but not an actor in the great drama of American democracy. What I found out about Mitt Romney changed that. While my previous post indicates why America should vote for Obama, this post indicates why I, and every other American citizen, MUST vote against Mitt Romney.

This election is about more then what Mitt wants to do to Medicare or Social Security, it is about what will be the character of our nation in the future. Wall Street, Corporate Financiers, all the big money interests, and the wealthiest people in America have already invested one BILLION DOLLARS in support of Mitt Romney's bid to be our president. If money could dictate the results of the election, Obama wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of winning. But it does not, we, the people, yeah YOU PEOPLE still have a say in the matter. But make no mistake in the matter, if Mitt wins, this election campaign will become the template for all future elections in the United States. For it will be proven that enough money can dictate the results of an election. Our democracy will be fundamentally transformed, we will be a government of the money, by the money, for the money. But if Mitt lost, well let us just say, one billion dollars will have gotten no return on investment, and it is unlikely that their investment in the future will be as great. So in effect we are fighting for the United States' exceptionalism, this is our battle, one that must be won by each of us individually.

Everyone must be engaged in this battle, make sure your friends, neighbors, and family are registered to vote; if your state has special ID requirements, make sure you are aware of them and you and your friends meet those requirements. You don't want to wait on a line, and then not be able to vote because you don't have the proper ID. The democratic process is always a social process. Rent the 1940 Academy Award winning movie about the effects of the Great Depression on a family "The Grapes of Wrath", and view it with friends, neighbors, and family (including Republicans). No overt politics need take place, the movie itself will have an impact. You were probably told never talk about politics or religion, but the choice we face in this election is too important not to talk about it, in a non-aggressive manner, every chance you get; coffee klatches, card games, casual conversations of all types. Since my first letter received such a positive response I created website with an easy to remember name CommonSenseFor.US (.US not .Com) which you can refer people to. I could use some help to add the social networking buttons (Twitter, FaceBook, eMail this, etc).

If you a student and you don't have a political club in school, start one, your history teacher will help you. I believe, this will be the most important election in my lifetime, and will shape what is America's future. If you feel my letters have any value, and you would like to share it with others, you have my permission to do so. In whole or in part. In fact, please share it with at least 5 others and ask them to share it also. Give it a small personal introduction. We may not have millions of dollars to spread a message, but we all have at least 5 friends and acquaintances. Ask them to also send it to 5 more people, chain-letter style. I encourage you spread it as far as you can, eMails to friends, Facebook, Blogs, op-ed pieces and letters to the editor in your local paper. If the subject matter of the letter is not deemed worthy of coverage, the way the message is being spread may well be. Finally send it to your congressional representatives and senators, (Democrat and Republican), and national, state and local party organs, they might as well know what the people are thinking. This is the only time they listen to the people more then the organized special interests.

You can contact me at: [email protected]

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Response to viguy007 (Reply #158)

Fri Aug 24, 2012, 06:33 AM

159. Here you go, I've posted it here -

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #159)

Fri Aug 24, 2012, 10:06 PM

161. Thank you, I now have enough posts where I can start a thread on my own.

 

But I have a question for you, my first post has gotten a wildly enthusiastic response (14485 views, 274 Rec, 116 tweets, 942 like), but this one seems to have fallen flat on its face. Even you recommended it only for visibility. Yet it used many of the same facts, and was written in the style of Rush Limbaugh, outrageous, emotional, the sky is falling. While I don't believe Romney is another Hitler, I do believe he will be worse then Nixon in respecting the Constitution. It was meant to rally the troops and it failed. Since I plan on using these letters on other blogs, I would like your opinion on why it failed. Thanks.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #6)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 08:45 AM

12. I worry when we take the stand that we must agree on all the issues or we agree on no issues.

It's a surefire way to guarantee that nothing will ever be acomplished. This is pretty clearly happening right now.

I will never agree with a Mississippi christian on abortion rights or gay rights. It's just not going to happen. But here is a Republican with whom I can wholeheartedly agree on economic issues.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #6)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 09:56 AM

43. +1

Agreed. Not to mention that if he voted for W twice, his brain does not function well.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #6)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 03:40 PM

85. +1, you nailed it.

 

I think it's also revealing how many people that are supposedly democratic voters fall for this shit.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #6)

Thu Aug 16, 2012, 02:00 AM

113. True that - State's Rights is code for bigot.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #6)

Thu Aug 16, 2012, 03:48 AM

116. most people who change lifelong fundamental beliefs - don't change 100% all at once

The vast majority of right-wing people are not personally evil. They have for some reason accepted assumptions that are incorrect. But they are not beyond redemption. Nobody is. Any step in the direction of enlightenment is progress that should be welcomed. Or we can insist that everyone immediately agree with everything and demand an all or nothing commitment. But that won't get us anywhere, will it? Under that approach the liberal/progressive philosophy will be a tiny sectarian minority forever. I welcome every step in the right direction - no matter how incremental. That is the essence of being progressive.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #6)

Thu Aug 16, 2012, 03:50 AM

117. Yes, I am a republican

 

But the social issues are really religious issues. They are questions of faith which can not be addressed logically, or can peoples minds be changed easily, because the Bible tells them so. So people vote against their own economic interests because they want to have eternal life in heaven. To me this is crazy, but that is the way it is. When I tried to post this letter on a newspaper site of a rural Midwest community, it kept getting rejected because I was using a "profanity." I first removed the word "dam", it was rejected, but when I removed the word "gay", it was accepted. So instead of saying "These 'social issues' - abortion, gay marriage, medical use of marijuana; I said "These 'social issues' - abortion, same-sex marriage, medical use of marijuana; and instead of saying "I am not a woman, gay, sick, or very religious"; I said "I am not a woman, homosexual, sick, or very religious." In both cases the meaning was the same, I was pragmatic and I achieved what I wanted to. And people knew exactly what I was saying. So too is it with civil-union and marriage, it is only a word. As long as the civil and economic rights are the same, what difference does it make what we call it. Being pragmatic does not make me a bigot, but not being pragmatic could lose me an election, and cost me a great deal.

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Response to viguy007 (Reply #117)

Thu Aug 16, 2012, 03:00 PM

123. Not so fast... Please, introduce yourself.


I ask that before anyone reacts negatively to what I am about to say, take a moment to really think about what I am writing. In short, this letter could backfire.

"When I tried to post this letter on a newspaper site of a rural Midwest community..."
Could you be any more vague? Which paper / website. Why hide it?

Dear author,
Please come forward.

To the rest of you, while this letter sends a powerful message consider this; it is quite possibly a well-written hoax.

Think about it - The author writes a 4500+ word detailed policy essay yet doesn't offer a clue to his identity? Not a clue as to what business he's successful in...No glimpse at the economic conditions of his hometown... Yet chock-full of anti-Romney talking points and many opinions (Eastern European economic model, Bain Capitol, too much Military spending, Romney's tax returns etc, etc...) that hardly sound like a lifelong Republican who has just seen the light.
Incredibly detailed and well researched arguments yet other than 'lifelong Republican who voted for Romney in the primary,' nada when it comes to the authors identity. Nothing about what business he's in... and then, tried to post this letter on a newspaper site of a rural "Midwest community."


If my suspicion is correct, and the letter turns out to be a hoax it's an incredibly disingenuous tactic that will do more harm than good if it's exposed after "going viral." If I am correct, this letter represents the sleazy tactics we all despise. If I am correct and the letter turns out to have been written by a longtime Democrat, the right will use it use against the Obama campaign.

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Response to Albert_Wentworth (Reply #123)

Thu Aug 16, 2012, 03:32 PM

124. Seems this must have struck a nerve on the "right"...

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Response to Albert_Wentworth (Reply #123)

Thu Aug 16, 2012, 06:00 PM

131. Thank you for your concern.

You are choking on gnats while swallowing camels, IMO.

I for one don't care who and where the author is. This is a well written essay on why the RW ideology is so dangerous to this nation.

While I disagree on many points (such as state rights on social issues where federal rights are impacted - tax law, estate planning, Social Security benefits...) the overall premise of the essay is dead solid perfect.

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #131)

Thu Aug 16, 2012, 08:05 PM

132. You don't care ...?

You should care. The letter becomes nothing more than an opinion piece without the shiny "I used to be a Romney supporter" angle. If the author is revealed to not be who he claims to be this letter does more harm than good. Period. When anything is said anonymously should be treated with caution.

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Response to Albert_Wentworth (Reply #132)

Thu Aug 16, 2012, 08:38 PM

133. Your concern is noted.

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Response to Albert_Wentworth (Reply #132)

Fri Aug 17, 2012, 07:50 AM

146. It will never 'be exposed' because guess what?! It's too damning to the Right!

And it's too long for the Teabaggeratti to read anyway.


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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 08:33 AM

7. Well, now there's a Republican I'd vote for!

I'm saving this and sending it to my next Republican relative who spews a Fox talking point at me.

Thanks you!

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 08:39 AM

9. This is PRECISELY why the Democrats must be centrist.

The pragmatic, centrist Republicans of the past are being cut out... and the democrats need to widen the tent for them.

Progressives need to respect that the MAJORITY of Americans are CONSERVATIVE.

We can't proceed by lurching to the left or DEMANDING that the country swing left. If we're going to see a shift to center-left, then it will be gradual and should be based on coherent FISCAL arguments... not social arguments.

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Response to CabCurious (Reply #9)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 08:43 AM

11. A plurality of Americans are conservative

not the majority.

Democrats can have prudent fiscal policies and also promote equality. In fact a country where everyone has an equal chance at success is likely to have a more dynamic economy than more authoritarian or feudal models of society.

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #11)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 08:46 AM

14. This country leans center-right. It really does.

I agree with your point about democrats having more prudent fiscal policies.

But until progressives fully appreciate how centrist and center-right this country is, we're going to remain confused about why politics for the left are so frustrating. The GOP know to bait us on social issues, rather than allowing us to refocus economic discussions.

Clinton out-flanked them.
Obama is now learning to do the same.

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Response to CabCurious (Reply #14)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 09:23 AM

33. A lot of Americans claim to be conservative but nevertheless,

when asked about individual policies, tend to favor liberal positions on things like health care, choice, bank regulation, social security, etc.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #33)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 09:32 AM

37. Many moderate conservatives lean progressive on SOCIAL issues

And traditional fiscal conservatives understood that you needed regulation and controls on the market.

They understand the value of public services and goods.

Today's so-called fiscal conservatives are just poorly educated libertarians.

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Response to CabCurious (Reply #14)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 09:23 AM

34. But center right as of when? The center right of 10 years ago is now considered left by the right.

This isn't a rhetorical question. I'm really asking.

I know that I've also read that the country is center right, but does anyone know if that has that changed as the right goes further right? (To put it another way, does the country now lean center-bat sh** crazy?)

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Response to Squinch (Reply #34)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 09:30 AM

36. That's the irony of the right's hostility towards moderates...

The far-right are closing themselves off by their own misrepresentation and hostility towards honest moderates.

This is precisely why moderates like Mccain and Romney end up having to swing so far to the right to "energize the base," but then shoot themselves in the foot.

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Response to CabCurious (Reply #36)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 11:31 AM

46. I agree with much of what you've said, but...

...the biggest contributing factor to the country moving right is the media.

Had the media not been bought out lock stock and barrel by the right-wing (and the military industrial complex). The country would not have swung to the right at all.

The challenge in front of us is to make people understand that they are not being 'informed' by news, but rather manipulated by 'Bain owned' Hannity, 'Bain owned' Limbaugh or 'Bain owned' Beck. As well as GE owned NBC etc.

If we had that kind of message (point out the financial influence) for every 'news' story; I believe either the message would change, or the opposition would stop trying to use it as a legitimate news source.

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Response to Blanks (Reply #46)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 11:38 AM

49. Agree 100%

If our society collapses, which is increasingly likely, the media are absolutely at the center.

It isn't just a right-wing problem.

Look at Huffington Post's growth into entertainment-oriented commercial news under a corporate conglomerate that now pushes other "affiliated" content. The complete commercialization of our information will be our downfall.

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Response to CabCurious (Reply #49)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 09:48 PM

110. " The complete commercialization of our information will be our downfall."

That is maybe the most succinct statement of the issue that I have ever seen.

Thank you.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #110)

Fri Aug 17, 2012, 12:12 AM

136. :)

It feels nice when we sometimes put our fingers on it just right.

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Response to CabCurious (Reply #14)

Sat Aug 18, 2012, 07:21 PM

151. I don't agree that this country leans center right

That's an argument that Republicans like to spout. It stems from a survey that showed slightly more people identifying themselves as Republican than Democrat (most said Independent). But as Jackpine said, if you ask people about just the issues without labeling them as Republcan or Democrat, most will side with the more liberal stance. And as people become more educated about a certain issue, the more likely they'll pick the liberal position.

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #11)

Thu Aug 16, 2012, 10:52 PM

134. I asked earlier

Can I publish this on my website??

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Response to outsideworld (Reply #134)

Fri Aug 17, 2012, 07:40 AM

145. I think it's okay, go ahead.

viguy007 specifically mentioned that he wants as many people as possible to read it.

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Response to CabCurious (Reply #9)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 09:01 AM

25. "MAJORITY of Americans are CONSERVATIVE"

no they're not. apathetic, maybe, but conservative, no. most people are actually not afraid of progress.

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Response to barbtries (Reply #25)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 09:11 AM

28. Being "conservative" doesn't mean social conservative or radical-right

Many conservatives actually lean left on social issues.

But the majority believe in capitalism and free markets. They don't put faith in government.

The traditional "fiscal conservatives" who are pragmatic, not ideologues, have been practically kicked out of the GOP and deemed "progressives" by the far-right which is comical.

They are wrong.

Those are still conservatives by any objective measure.

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Response to CabCurious (Reply #28)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 11:29 AM

45. Check out this site

 

politicalcompass.org

Every person, professed liberal or conservative, that I know who has taken the test and found their position is SHOCKED by the contrast between where they are and where are corporatists leaders are. We need to stop using labels and look at policies instead. When we do, I bet we'll find that we are solidly center-LEFT at the most.

This is why I no longer reside in the nation of my birth: what Americans actually want is almost universally ignored by TPTB.

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #45)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 11:33 AM

48. Love the link, but... on an objective, global spectrum... we're center-right.

How many Americans question capitalism?
How many Americans want to dramatically slash the military budget?
How many Americans agree with limits on welfare, etc?

On finance issues, Americans are absolutely not "left" in any honest sense of the spectrum. On social issues, I think they do lean center-left, but not when it comes to our overall ideology about meritocracy, economic growth, free markets, etc.

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Response to CabCurious (Reply #48)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 02:51 PM

74. Actually, no.

 

Our media is owned and controlled by those on the Right. And another thing, Center Right of what? Where is the real center? Who is defining that center? The real political center, comparing the rest of the political world, is way over on the Left from our center. The problem is, we USA'ns are defining the center as being somewhere between the American Democrats and Republicans, forgetting that both parties are now over to the Right from where the Republicans were 40 years ago. The current political center is not the actual political center that is needed to define "Center".

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Response to RC (Reply #74)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 04:42 PM

91. You just made my point

Yes, the media is corporate and commercial. Mostly right-leaning, when push comes to shove on CORE business issues, not hot button social issues.

And I don't think "center" is relative. There is clearly a far-right and a far-left. We barely have anybody in the USA that's genuinely far-left, at least in politics. We have plenty on the far-right, although it's not as openly fascist as some of the political groups in Europe.

Almost everybody in the USA accepts capitalism in terms of basic market forces. We just vary in what that should look like. We also vary in what government should look like, but EVERYBODY fits within the broad "liberalism" in the traditional sense. That's considered "right" by global standards.

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Response to RC (Reply #74)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 04:43 PM

92. And even in a relativist sense, we're to the right of USA in 1980.

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Response to CabCurious (Reply #48)

Fri Aug 17, 2012, 02:37 AM

144. Just anecdotal

but I once belonged to a message board of mostly conservative, well-off, SAHMs. During the primaries before the 2008 election someone posted a quiz titled something like, "which Candidate running for president most closely represents you on the issues" Well, I'll be darned if all these conservative women didn't keep posting things like, "Who is Dennis Kucinich? That's who I got." or "I got Kucinich. Isn't he a commie? This test is stupid." or "I had NO idea I had that much in common with Dennis Kucinich! ack! My ultra conservative dh will freak!" or "Kill me now, I got Hillary Clinton" Out of about 2 or 3 dozen that took the test, only about 2 or 3 ended up with actual conservative candidates (and there were 1 or 2 Ron Pauls).

I think a majority of Americans are chained to labels and really don't know much about where the issues stand on the political scale, and they don't know anything about what the candidates stand for or they are totally ignorant and vote conservative 'because they represent family values'. I'll also state that we had debates about the medical system in the US (I'm a Canadian so could offer a different perspective) and the vast majority favored single payer after I (and a couple of other Canadians) explained how health care worked where I am. This is a board of mostly conservatives. The U.S. isn't center right. The U.S. is simply brainwashed by the media.

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Response to laundry_queen (Reply #144)

Sun Aug 19, 2012, 08:37 AM

154. $100 says that was about social issues, not economic

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Response to CabCurious (Reply #154)

Sun Aug 19, 2012, 11:52 PM

156. LOL, like you were actually going to pay me anyway.

Lots of economic stuff...remember this was when there were starting to be deep concerns about the economy. Also, most of the conservative women were hardcore anti-choice (we had regular debates) so I doubt Dennis Kucinich would've popped up if the questions were social. When I did the test I don't remember any social questions regarding the 'big' things, like abortion or gay marriage, but I do remember some questions about free trade and the health care system.

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #45)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 04:05 PM

89. Is the website you gave us to check out Yours?

I did the test and then looked further ...The thought that you own this website , politicalcompass.org, is as very loud question in my head.

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Response to CabCurious (Reply #9)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 11:40 AM

50. YOU LIE

 

the majority of Uhhhmericans have a sense of fair play.

they want their children to do better than they did.

conservatism ensures a return to the 19th century - this isn't a vision most Uhhhhmericans hold close to their hearts.

as far as those precious few sane republicans or conservatives who see through the teabagger con job - suck it up, man up and own it. these nutty fuckers are your own. the democratic party doesn't necessarily need very many more "greatest generation" types when there are plenty of old hippies and disco bunnies who will be lining up for social security and old age benefits.

those things will be there with the democratic party in power.

clean up your own house before you start shitting concern everywhere.



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Response to datasuspect (Reply #50)


Response to Post removed (Reply #87)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 04:09 PM

90. Edit your offensive title line please.

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Response to Son of Gob (Reply #90)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 07:27 PM

101. cool post bro

 

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #101)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 08:03 PM

103. You're ok with that title line?

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #101)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 08:13 PM

105. Cool jury results bro. I guess you'd have voted to leave it. Too bad bro.

At Wed Aug 15, 2012, 07:59 PM you sent an alert on the following post:

Right on, I'm 63 and fuck these retardiCON yahoos.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1138175

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

YOUR COMMENTS:

Use of the word "retard" is inappropriate no matter who it is aimed at.

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Wed Aug 15, 2012, 08:08 PM, and voted 5-1 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: Sorry. I agree with you 100% but any version of "retard" as an insult is not right.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: i am a special educator. Please refrain from the "r" word. It is hurtful.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: Apparently the post has been edited to remove the offending word, but I still vote to hide it for its unparalleled stupidity.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #50)

Thu Aug 16, 2012, 03:34 PM

125. This country leans slightly right. I didn't say it leans far-right or into crazy. :)

And calling me names or twisting my words doesn't change that.

Most Americans believe in free markets, limited government, individualism, meritocracy and what we historically call "classical liberalism."

That doesn't mean they are against fairness or even limits on capitalism.

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Response to CabCurious (Reply #125)

Thu Aug 16, 2012, 05:17 PM

130. bullshit

 

just because you say so doesn't make it true.

fox news might lead many to believe that what you are saying is the case, but it doesn't make it true.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #130)

Fri Aug 17, 2012, 12:14 AM

137. do you do anything besides call people liars and full of shit? nt

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Response to CabCurious (Reply #9)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 12:44 PM

58. Not conservative; uneducated, apolitical and dare I say, hijacked.

For 30 years, the voters on the right have been hijacked by social issues - to their OWN detriment. Why this election is so exciting. For the first time in memory, we get to have the conversation about what the RW ECONOMIC policies are for this nation. Once those teabagging "keep the government out of my Medicare" people take a drink from the Gekko/Galt clue hose, I don't think many will be on board with that path.

We just need to talk with them (one on one, door by door) about the VAST and diametrically opposed policies are, and what they mean to all of us who aren't in the 1%.

"RR wants to cut SS and Medicare so that they can offset giving billionaires more tax cuts".

"Customers are job creators. More customers, more jobs, more hiring."

"Companies are sitting on record amounts of cash. Giving them more won't make them hire - demand makes them hire"

"We need to prime the pump from the bottom up. People with jobs consume, people with money save - which does not get money flowing through the economy"

"Small businessman: You want me to hire, bring me more customers. If you give me a tax break, I'll just take the wife to Aruba".

"Without regulation, it is a free-for-all with greed at the center as the driving point"


Talking points - short and simple. Once people are forced to pay attention to this stuff (which I think this election is going to do), hopefully they will realize that voting against their own interests isn't in their best interest.

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #58)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 05:38 PM

96. exactly

now this is truth!

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #58)

Thu Aug 16, 2012, 03:38 PM

127. There's no "talking with" the hardliners on social issues.

When I say we need to be centrist, I guess I mean on core domestic policy matters, not social issues.

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Response to CabCurious (Reply #127)

Thu Aug 16, 2012, 03:53 PM

128. Those talking points are anything but Centrist.

They are diametrically opposed to the "lower/eliminate taxes" policies of the right. The RW talks trickle down, the LW talks bottom up. They couldn't be any further apart - and those are left of left on the dial.

If you have a centrist policy proposal that combines trickle-down and bottom-up, I am all ears.

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #128)

Fri Aug 17, 2012, 12:11 AM

135. Trickle down isn't centrist. And bottom-up isn't left.

Although the left is certainly the side talking bottom-up. So is the center.

Many older fiscal conservatives still believe in bottom-up, main-stream economics.

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Response to CabCurious (Reply #135)

Fri Aug 17, 2012, 12:24 AM

139. Did you read the post you responded to

or just jump in to defend a theory?

Reiterating, trickle down is RW theology - from the Friedman school. Bottom up (pump priming) is Keynesian - which is just shy of socialism, ie - left.

Again, I will ask - what is the "centrist" school of thought that blends these two economic policy theories, and what "older fiscal conservatives" (links are fine, no need for publication cred) are promoting bottom up?

I do not ask this with snark - I truly would like to know.

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #139)

Fri Aug 17, 2012, 12:37 AM

140. In a global spectrum, Keynesian/mixed economy theory is centrist, not left.

Do most AMERICAN progressives accept neo-keynesian views about growth and government? Sure.

I look at this on a GLOBAL spectrum. In the most simplistic economic terms, it's like this:

Far-left is socialism. Center is mixed economy. Far-right is laissez faire.

Mixed economic approaches and keynesian approaches are not "just shy" of socialism, in my view. There's a wide range there.

America BARELY has a true left, in this sense. Most Democrats accept a restrained capitalism with keynesian notions. Most of our democrats would be considered fairly conservative abroad.

Our Republicans increasingly talk laissez faire nonsense and pull away from the center.

What I remember are many fiscal conservatives 30-40 years ago who believes in public goods, public investments, growing LOCAL tax bases, and manufacturing. Even Reagan argued for unions at one point. They were pragmatic. Now those types are alienated from the GOP. They are called "liberals" by today's far-right, but they are certainly not leaning left. The GOP just lurched farther right.

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Response to CabCurious (Reply #140)

Fri Aug 17, 2012, 01:41 AM

143. You are defending Reagan - on an Econ thread?

As supporting unions? Was this before or after he locked down the air traffic controllers?

I do not question that the country (and both parties) have "lurched to the right", I question your understanding of basic Econ 101 concepts and how you are asking the good folks of DU to apply them.

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #143)

Sun Aug 19, 2012, 08:39 AM

155. "where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost." - Reagon, 1980

Ronald Reagan, Labor Day Address at Liberty State Park, 1980

Obviously he didn't think the right to union meant the traffic controllers had a right to strike!

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Response to CabCurious (Reply #9)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 02:16 PM

69. I disagree

At least with your suggestion that we must be more centrist. That is actually part of the problem. How would you define centrist these days? Especially in America, of all places. It's not so much about demanding anything, I think, as about protecting and promoting our more general goals of social justice and equality.

The fiscal argument is, perhaps, the argument of this current time. We must though, continue to strive for social justice and equality as well - if we do not, they slide back. We slide back as a Nation, as a people... as a whole.

I don't think the two sides that are so radically opposed will both willingly move towards the center. If we do so to compensate, we end up adopting social and probably financial policies that will not be at all progressive. It has been demonstrated, time and time again... that if we move further to the right to compensate for the divide... we remain further to the right, which is reflected economically, socially - and in our foreign policy.

Yes, change must come slowly, but it must come. First we need to hold on to what we can of what has been accomplished... and strive, little by little, for more, for a better society overall.

I am... if not an out and out liberal, at least a fanatic democrat. I will not move to the center, I will not moderate myself or my beliefs. I can though, share them in a civilized, respectful manner. I think perhaps that that is what we need more of. Not moving or leaning further right, simply being able to have a civil discussion. It should be simple, common courtesy should be practiced by all... especially by adults playing at being professional politicians.

I am not at all sure that the majority of Americans lean right either. I would argue that the majority... does not care about politics.

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Response to CabCurious (Reply #9)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 02:57 PM

77. A Centralest Democrat now, is to the Right of Republicans of 40 years ago.

 

Being a centralest Democrat now is really not helping much to restore a robust economy, stop the wars or much of anything else that is wrong with our country now.

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Response to RC (Reply #77)

Thu Aug 16, 2012, 03:36 PM

126. The center is wide, in my view (and I don't count libertarians who claim to be independent)

We have no choice but to be centrist, if we intend to move the entire country.

Being increasingly ideological is why the GOP is losing members. The Dems need to be EXPANDING their ranks, not limiting what they insist upon as doctrine.

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Response to CabCurious (Reply #9)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 08:12 PM

104. drivel

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 08:41 AM

10. I'm an independent

 

Since the race for the white house began a few months back, I've been kind of in the sidelines watching.I've been a lifelong independent always waiting til the last few weeks to decide who gets my vote.this year I thought would be no different, I wanted to see what mitt brought to the table.honestly I wasn't impressed but wanted to give him a chance anyway.But that all changed saturday, by picking paul ryan for vp the message I got was that we only care about the 1% .I still cannot believe that he went that route, to appeal to the sarah palins and the rush limbaugh types.I see in the romney ryan ticket the destruction of the middle class and worse yet the destruction of the poor.so my decision was made easier because of it.I will be voting for barack obama in november, we cannot allow this radicals to implement the agenda of the koch brothers in this country.I think obama is gonna win and win big, we're tired of being crushed by the top 1% in this country they want more and more while we get less and less.its time to tell wallst we won't put up with it anymore.

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Response to Barry2012 (Reply #10)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 08:53 AM

18. Welcome to DU and

I definitely agree with your choice

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Response to Barry2012 (Reply #10)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 08:54 AM

20. Welcome to DU, Barry!

Looking forward to seeing you lose your indy status and go full Dem.

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Response to Barry2012 (Reply #10)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 08:56 AM

23. We need hope again (and reasoned independents)

So glad we still have people like you, willing to really look at facts and avoid partisan games.

I personally have voted "both ways" and for 3rd party candidates at different levels. However, today's GOP has truly gone into full-blown "culture war" without regard for decency or the economy.

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Response to Barry2012 (Reply #10)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 09:02 AM

26. i like your first post Barry2012

welcome to DU

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Response to Barry2012 (Reply #10)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 09:22 AM

32. Yeah, right. Like your screen name doesn't give you away.

 

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #32)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 09:35 AM

38. THAT

was my first thought also!

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #32)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 08:16 PM

106. Amen.

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Response to Barry2012 (Reply #10)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 09:44 AM

42. That's good, and all . . . . but just a nitpick . . . .

. . . The President's name is Barack. "Barry" is a right-wing slur.

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Response to HughBeaumont (Reply #42)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 12:08 PM

55. +1. You see a sheep clothing wardrobe failure? 'Barry' is what Rush and his Dittoheads call Obama.

Only time will tell. Voting a jury near you soon.

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Response to Barry2012 (Reply #10)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 02:26 PM

70. Very sorry

 

Can anyone tell me how to change my screen name .

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Response to Barry2012 (Reply #70)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 04:59 PM

93. For that, you would need to ask the Administrators

Here is their contact information: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=contact

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Response to Barry2012 (Reply #70)

Fri Aug 17, 2012, 12:44 AM

141. Oh, come on. I like your screen name.

Anyone who has a problem with "Barry" is just grumpy.
Welcome to DU!

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Response to Barry2012 (Reply #10)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 03:39 PM

84. Welcome to DU

We need you and others like you.. Please invite them to join us.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 08:46 AM

13. This should be spread far and wide

and become know as the "New American Manifesto of the Born Again Conservatives".

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Response to randr (Reply #13)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 03:44 PM

86. Don't forget to include torture camps and civilian killing in their "manifesto"

 

Go ahead and spread the truth.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 08:48 AM

15. This is the type of Republican I remember

K & R & B

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 08:50 AM

16. Romney used to govern more as a moderate.

That's his problem with the Reeps who now comprise the
extremist rw fringe. That's why he picked Paul Ryan; and
that's why he can't put a coherent message together.

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Response to ananda (Reply #16)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 08:51 AM

17. He jumped from that ship in Fall 2007 (nt)

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Response to ananda (Reply #16)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 09:25 AM

35. Same thing happened to McCain. n/t

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Response to ananda (Reply #16)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 08:41 PM

107. Romney does or and says whatever he thinks he needs to get support

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 08:53 AM

19. Welcome and thank you for the thoughtful and detailed post.

I appreciate all of your concerns about the current republican ticket. I would, however, encourage you to consider the effects of the social policies on the economy. An out of control drug policy has filled our prisons with nonviolent offenders and created a de facto border war. Women, who support their families financially--either with a partner or without, suffer the effects of disparate wages and health care options. Our LGBT citizens contribute to our society financially and in many other ways and do not deserve to be treated as unequal when it comes to their personal and financial business. Civil rights and economic viability are not mutually exclusive. We will only be a healthy economy when we learn how to value and respect all of our citizens. We cannot afford to slide down a steep slope in which we turn aside from those who have limited voice or none.

Most importantly, I would urge you to continue to speak out on the buying and gaming of the election process, especially with those Republicans you interact with on a daily basis. Democracy cannot flourish when all dissenting voices are stifled and when voter suppression is carried out so systematically.

Thank you again for your remarks.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 08:54 AM

21. Kicked, recommended and tweeted

Thanks! Well worth the read.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 08:56 AM

22. just wow.... what he said. n/t

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 09:00 AM

24. Great post

 

What a great post! Thanks so much.

I will use it when I talk to Republicans but for so many facts dont mean crap..its all about race...and what Boss Limbaugh thinks.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 09:08 AM

27. Kick to read later

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 09:13 AM

29. Great pragmatic, well reasoned, post. Well worth the read! nt

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 09:14 AM

30. Hope you don't mind if I sent this, in total, to my Republican brother-in-law!

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 09:22 AM

31. welcome

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 09:37 AM

39. Well done, worth the read

" this is not a sporting event"

This cannot be said enough...and it pertains to many supporters of BOTH parties.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #39)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 11:40 AM

51. I'm glad you pointed that out.

It was pretty early in the OP and IMHO, a comparison not made frequently enough.

Folks need to take the time to see what their candidate actually stands for, and not just cheer for them because 'dad always did' or whoever it was that they respected that cheered for the red team.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 09:42 AM

40. We have a rare phenomenon...

...a Republican critical thinker! It's the lockstep within that party line that really is the hardest to tolerate. And if someone goes off the reservation, Rush is right there to yank 'em right back onto it!

Good on ya for standing up for principles. And yeah, the "state's rights" thing to regulate gays and women is of course gonna stick in the craw, but people's perceptions are ever evolving. Especially for those who haven't shut their brains off completely!

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 09:42 AM

41. K&R

Welcome to DU viguy007.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 10:15 AM

44. Long but worth it....

 

I usually don't read anything this long but it was worth the read. Why can't other RawMoney supporters think of country before party??

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Response to johnny156 (Reply #44)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 01:19 PM

64. If they did, they wouldn't be supporting him in the first place.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 11:32 AM

47. excellent

 

do we have permission to reuse all or parts of this?

It seems like credit needs to be given somehow.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 11:42 AM

52. helpful advertising hint

 

if you want to successfully communicate a message, keep it simple, keep it concise, and restrict it to three powerful ideas.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 11:47 AM

53. You are not alone

A staunch Republican of 50 Years, family member who ironically is also Mormon has also left the party---for the same basic reasons you list.

My relative apologized to me for having "head buried in sand for so long".
Thank you for your excellent analysis.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 11:49 AM

54. Oh God, where do I start?

 

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 12:24 PM

56. Those countries do NOT all have universal "socialized" healthcare.

 

UK does - physicians are employees of the government IIRC. The other countries have Single Payer, and physicians are generally self-employed.

Your statement is a RW talking point in that respect.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #56)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 01:05 PM

60. I was hospitalized in Spain during a vacation and it was free (100% American w/ US passport)

I had an emergency room visit in the UK that was free too.

I've always been a fan of their systems.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 12:31 PM

57. K&R...

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 12:56 PM

59. Just 1 correction...

"Obama deviated from TRAP's stated purpose when he, without congressional authorization, used TARP to bail out GM and Chrysler thereby saving them from bankruptcy."

Umm, no. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1208/16740.html

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 01:10 PM

61. Now if I could just remember

all of this analysis to repeat at opportune occasions....

to the new DUer.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 01:13 PM

62. This was really written by a Republican?

Wow, I guess some have avoided the blinders. Now how did this person get all this info that apparently the rest of the typical repubs are missing?

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 01:14 PM

63. This person shows he loves his country more then he hates dems. We should all

 

put our country first. Thank you sir for showing all of us we can love our country even if we don't agree on every issue but come together by compromising.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 01:27 PM

65. Sir

 

I do not totally agree with some (very few) statements in your post, but I will admit, me being a lifelong Democrat, and more liberal, than the word itself, I agree on 90% of what you said here. Thank you for your post and welcome home.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 01:45 PM

66. I hope more Repub. voters will take such a clear-eyed look at their club...

...and begin to vote for issues that benefit this country as a whole - and also the planet.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 02:08 PM

67. So, from this lenghty response am I correct

 

to assume that you voted for Bush the Lesser - TWICE! How do you think that worked out for the country at large? Yeah, Romney and Ryan are arch hypocrites and shameless corporate and 1% whores and they would oversee a horrible administration. However, you lifelong Republicans have been screwing up this country for a long time. That big tent hasn't existed for quite a while, especially after Rethugs decided that politics was a blood sport, ie. see "Karl Rove". Pardon me if I don't have much appreciation for your revelation that the current Rethug running for the presidency might be a really bad choice for voters and the country at large. For my money, Romney and Ryan are simply a logical development of a political movement that has plagued this country for decades.

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Response to Bainbridge Bear (Reply #67)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 05:37 PM

95. DU's version of Born Again

"Never mind you've been a destructive sinner your entire life, convert and you shall be regarded as a saint... But woe to the vile, lifelong democrat who takes his name (or policies) in vain..."

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Response to Bainbridge Bear (Reply #67)

Thu Aug 16, 2012, 02:10 AM

114. Yeah, same thought as well.

Assuming the OP was old enough to vote in 2004, how could you have no problems with GWB but Romney's brand of watered down self-serving waffleriffic BS has you on the warpath?

He's the least conservative and extreme presidential candidate the Republicans have fielded since 1976.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 02:12 PM

68. I have a family member who wants to be a moderate fiscal republican

I told them he missed his chance by 30 years there is no such thing anymore as a fiscal republican who works with democrats so for the good of the country we have a realist budget.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 02:29 PM

71. Like many have already said. Wow.

This was the first post I read today and boy what a Du..zzzy.

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Response to Smickey (Reply #71)

Fri Aug 17, 2012, 01:25 PM

147. No not the award.

As you can see I am new here and did not mean this to be used as/or in relation to the duzy awards. Oops. I meant it in the original meaning of the term. Damn newbies.

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Response to Smickey (Reply #147)

Fri Aug 17, 2012, 01:27 PM

148. Does this mean I am talking to myself?

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 02:31 PM

72. K & R

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 02:38 PM

73. Thanks for your work putting this all together. EXCELLENT POST!

Welcome to DU!

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 02:55 PM

75. Welcome. You are not alone. nt

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 02:55 PM

76. Marked

for later

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 03:04 PM

78. Should be submitted . . .

. . . for online publication and distribution. Well written, excellent points. Very well thought out.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 03:06 PM

79. Welcome to D.U. viguy007.



A most excellent post; especially on the economic/political issues, I couldn't agree with you more.

As for states rights, I find myself supporting and opposing them at different times depending on the issue; and where the federal government stands on it. I support MMJ and for that matter I believe cannabis should be legalized period, our so called "War on Drugs" is nothing but a tragic joke.

While I'm not a homosexual, I do believe their primary concerns are more in the realm of civil rights than just social issues and the federal government should vigorously support those rights.

Having said all that once again welcome to D.U.

Thanks for the thread, CJCRANE.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 03:16 PM

80. kick

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 03:36 PM

81. Repukes sure are popular around here, especially around economics

 

Torture camps were fine with that asshole, and he suddenly just can't stand the totally false "trickle down" that he voted for his entire life.

What a total load of shit from another vile repuke.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 03:37 PM

82. THis should be printed and talked about

K & R

Would be awesome to see him on our MSNBC shows like, Ed, Rachel and Lawrence.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 03:58 PM

88. Replying Because I Want to be Able to Find this Later

Yep!

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 06:31 PM

97. Hearty KICK and a HIGH Recommend for good old fashioned common sense!

Welcome to DU!

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Response to Raster (Reply #97)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 07:09 PM

99. CJCRANE (12,166 posts )

12,166 posts and now you've decided, why are ANY of you in favor of this post ? Just Shoot Me Now!!!

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Response to 4 t 4 (Reply #99)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 07:28 PM

102. You did read the VERY FIRST PART OF THE POST, RIGHT?

This is the first post of a new DUer, who asked in the subject line "How can I send this to as many people as possible, please help", so I'm helping by posting it as its own OP. Here's the link to the original post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=194612

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 07:06 PM

98. Bravo! Extremely well written. I'm bookmarking this one.

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Reply #98)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 07:26 PM

100. yes really well done after 21,000

posts you see the light, well done.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 09:07 PM

108. This is the SMARTEST post I have ever read here.

Yes, it's long, but really quite concise considering the scope.

I really loved the comparison to other countries, and how we should look to the ones that are successful as opposed to "pointing fingers". If anything, the countries who used the "austerity" plans that many are supporting are the ones that are in the most trouble.

viguy007, welcome to DU! Please don't be put off by some of the sandbox antics that you will sometimes see here. Your perspective is EXACTLY what we need here!

I have forwarded this post to several friends, including those who are active on other boards. EVERYONE needs to read this.

I may not agree with you 100%, but I would say that I agree 99.9999997%.

Which is why I have always supported at least a 2-party (if not more) system. Open debate. Which seems to be lost today.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 09:35 PM

109. To viguy007: A hearty welcome to DU !

I think most of us are glad to have you here.

Now, a bit of advice if I may. You seem like an intelligent, reasonable person of good will. I invite you to be open-minded and carefully consider your positions as you continue to visit.

That was an excellent first post and hopefully one of many to come. If you apply your intellect to the issues, you will gain respect here, even if some do not agree with you.

Again, welcome to DU !

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Wed Aug 15, 2012, 10:44 PM

111. K&R you said it!

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Thu Aug 16, 2012, 12:19 AM

112. In here are some hints on how to run people that can provide useful votes in red districts

You get people that speak the language in the areas they are running in, you talk bread and fucking butter, and you find people that can tell stories that connect with reality within their sphere.

To hell with "centrist", the consensus to be forged is actually on the money but it is in a certain fews avarice that every effort is made to distort that and if at all possible to distract from the thought altogether by channeling it into foolish and wholly distracting casting blame and every shadow and off the bright as day trail of dollars to the dragon hoards.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Thu Aug 16, 2012, 03:46 AM

115. I read this right after vi posted it

I am just as blown away as I was 18 or so hrs ago! Welcome again viguy! The post was one of the best I've ever read on or off line! Like love, this read was even better the second time around!

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Thu Aug 16, 2012, 06:24 AM

118. Brilliant!

You actually make the case for reelecting Obama better than any Dem. I have heard. You just bought everything together.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Thu Aug 16, 2012, 08:55 AM

119. Rec #260

Thank you for your thoughts viguy007. I'm glad I could help you get them out there.

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #119)

Thu Aug 16, 2012, 11:54 AM

121. Thank you very much.

 

I will be calling on you again since I am new here and don't yet have permission to start a thread. I am writing a post on how we, the people, must save our country, must save our democracy from the threat of big money politics.

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Response to viguy007 (Reply #121)

Thu Aug 16, 2012, 01:30 PM

122. Just send me a personal message, or reply to one of my posts, when you're ready.

I'll be happy to oblige.

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #122)

Sat Aug 18, 2012, 09:21 AM

149. But before I publish this is there anyway

That I can get a small profile of the author to Put underneath the post . You know anonymity diminishes the credibility of this .thank you

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Response to outsideworld (Reply #149)

Sat Aug 18, 2012, 09:32 AM

150. I don't know any more than he has written

on this thread and the other thread on DU.

I think he's genuine and take his word for it that he's a former Republican, based on what he's posted. That's just my hunch but I'm just an anonymous blogger like most of us here on DU. I like my words to speak for themselves and I guess viguy007 does too.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)


Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Thu Aug 16, 2012, 04:45 PM

129. Well written

and thoughtful. Thank you

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Fri Aug 17, 2012, 12:22 AM

138. Not Voting for Republican

This is one of the most articulate and courageous posts I have ever seen on any political board. My Dad and most of my family lean strongly Republican. I'm sad to see a major political party be browbeaten by moneyed interests and idealogues. One of the keys for our country to collectively get off the mat is that we need the Republican Party to recover its soul, its patriotism, and its common sense. Let's hope that the rebuild starts the day after the ass kicking in November.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Fri Aug 17, 2012, 01:02 AM

142. Very happy you are doing this.

 

I also hope you vote for Democrats in state and national congressional races. House and Senate Republcans have spear-headed a purposeful goal of blocking Obama's attempts to restore the economy. The President needs a responsible Congress willing to compromise to get things done in many cases where his efforts were thwarted by congressional Republicans hoping he would fail to improve anything.

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Sat Aug 18, 2012, 09:34 PM

152. Found this doing a search of "Republicans Voting for Obama"

http://obamahopeandchange.blogspot.com/2012/08/republicans-will-vote-for-president.html

Are you Tony Skaggs or did you just copy this website word for word?

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Response to jwhitesj (Reply #152)

Sun Aug 19, 2012, 06:04 AM

153. Look at the dates. It was posted here on DU first. nt

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Response to CJCRANE (Original post)

Mon Aug 20, 2012, 12:03 AM

157. Um, with all due respect to a new Obama voter...

When I voted for Mitt Romney in the primaries, I believed Mitt was a moderate pragmatic Republican as was his father, George, when governor of Michigan, and as was Mitt himself when he was governor of Massachusetts.


Which Republican Primary were you voting in? Because the Republican Primary I saw was one where Romney doubled down on foolish tax proposals, endorsed the defunding of Planned Parenthood, flipped on his own pragmatic health care strategy, and said nothing when a Republican audience booed a serving member of the American military. I respect your recent change of heart, but I would opine that the biggest problem the Republican Party has is that too many moderate members (and especially moderate office holders) have failed for decades to challenge the increasingly irresponsible positions of the Party leadership.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #157)

Fri Aug 24, 2012, 08:54 PM

160. I agree with you 100%

 

As I said I supported Mitt in the early primaries as a moderate Republican, after all, he had been the governor of Massachusetts, and to be elected there as a Republican meant that he had to be a moderate. It was only after Bain was brought up in the Republican primaries did I really start to examine the man I planned to be voting for. I was your typical low-information voter. It is because of voters like me that the money to buy 30 and 60 second commercials is so important.

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