I apologize if my being upset at "Imagine" is ruining your day.

[SomethingFishy]

I see many people here are very quick to shit on John Lennon and his fans.

I understand. Not everyone can grasp the concept of music having a powerful effect on peoples lives.

It's not easy for everyone to understand that many people, all over the world, who watched as the world changed after Kennedy was killed felt very alone. It's not easy to understand how one voice could have been so important to so many people. It's not easy to understand in this day and age, how important the Beatles were in a world with only radio and 3 tv channels for communication.
God help you if you were living in a conservative town, your only sane outlet was music.

It's not easy to understand in a world of Justin Biebers and Taylor Swifts that music used to be important. It used to be the place liberals could go to find out that they were not alone in the world. That there were others who believed that things didn't need to be this way.


John Lennon, and the Beatles, changed the world. They led the charge in a seismic shift of consciousness. I know that is hard to understand if you weren't there, but many off us were and for us it is real easy. His legacy has inspired generations of people. Liberals, and especially musicians. John Lennon didn't just carry the torch, the man fucking invented it. I for one will be eternally grateful to him for what he did.

You don't need to care about John Lennon, you don't need to give a shit about what he did or where things would have been without him, but you also don't need to shit on people who do and who are taking this personally. The song may not have meaning for you, but there are people out there who's lives have been made better by the music, who's lives have been literally changed by the music, and if you feel the need to shit on that, well that says much more about you than it does about the people who love John Lennon.

[Union Scribe]

1. It's not ruining mine, it's ruining yours.

And I don't know why you're letting it.

[SomethingFishy]

7. My day isn't ruined...

I saw what a fucking pathetic mess C-whatever was, in his fur and his gold chains singing Imagine and chaning it to mean that Religion is a good inclusive thing for all people. That was some funny ass shit. . I laughed my ass off and was wishing John could see what a mess it was.

Then I came here and saw a number of threads attacking people for being upset. I figured I'd try to explain why young people might not recognize what JL was and what meant to so many people.

In my entire life I never imagined that I would have to defend John Lennon and his songs on a liberal website. Or is this place not really "liberal" You tell me.

[Union Scribe]

21. Good grief.

You're going to tell me this "place is not really liberal" because not everyone is acting like that guy dug up Lennon and killed him again? It was one performance of one song (that most of the people freaking out didn't even know about until now) and people need to gain some perspective. I saw someone say it was like taking a knife to the Mona Lisa. It's gone well and truly overboard.

Your "I thought it was funny" thing doesn't really sound convincing surrounded by alll that anger, by the way.

[SomethingFishy]

44. You see "anger" because that is what you brought in here

with you. And my point escapes you yet again.

The point is people have a legitimate reason for being upset. It may not be legitimate to you but it is to them. And if you feel the need to bash them over it and then come in here and get snarky about being a fucking liberal than you don't know the meaning of the word. Used to be liberals didn't bash people over their emotions.



I would not have posted this had there not been 3 other threads saying what you are saying. It wasn't that important to me personally but it was apparently very important to some people I consider friends and it was apparently just as important for people like you to come in with your snarky Republican attitude of "it doesn't bother me, so anyone that is does bother is an asshole".

[quinnox]

47. Union scribe probably agrees with you more than you think

Since I hang out here a lot, I have an idea of what peoples politics are like, and I think you may be surprised that union scribe may agree with your politics more than you might think.

Maybe not on this issue, but on politics in general in terms of the spectrum he is in.

[muriel_volestrangler]

73. Your over-reaction is quite bizarre

This is about one performance that changed one line of a lyric. Your strawman argument that people were saying "fuck John Lennon" attracted just one puzzled reply, so you've now started this thread of outrage, pretending there are multiple threads 'attacking people'. There aren't - there's one thread saying "they used 'Imagine' for a commerical - it's not sacred".

It is quite ironic that the lyric is being treated as sacred and inviolable, given what it actually said. Saying that people who say "chill, it's just a lyric" somehow show a website is "not really liberal" is very silly, really.

Just to up the Beatles Blasphemy quotient:

(That damn apostate George!)

[roguevalley]

143. I heard my first Beatle song before they broke big over here. I love them but who cares?

One song, one singer. It's not a movement.

[bigwillq]

25. ....

[WingDinger]

2. You are aching for a jury.

[justiceischeap]

4. If I were asked to serve on a jury for this post, I'd say "Leave it!"

There are things that are juried that are much worse than this and are left.

I get what the OP is saying, people don't understand why this could be upsetting. Some folks have even condemned others for being upset about it. I think the OPs post is worthwhile in explaining just how much music can effect people's lives.

[WingDinger]

12. I didnt say how a jury would find. Just that he is trying to goad.

I have challenged all, when I differed, in an attempt to educate. But, intellectually, not cursively.

[HangOnKids]

94. Cursively?

I do not think this word means what you think. An online dictionary might help.

[WingDinger]

154. I kid often.

[sabrina 1]

14. Me too. Why would anyone hide this?

[JVS]

8. Hide it!

[polmaven]

19. I am at a loss

to see what the OP may have said on which an alert should be sent...

[Skip Intro]

111. I hope we avoid reaching a point where merely expressing an opinion results in a trial...

I imagine a discussion forum taking such a turn would see an exodus of members...

Then again, a rebuff of such efforts could strengthen the entire board.

OT a bit, I guess.

What possible reason would one have to alert on this thread?

[polmaven]

135. Agreed!

"I'm bored with this post" is not a reason to alert, IMO.

[Javaman]

151. And you are aching for attention. nt

[Old and In the Way]

28. I'm a Deadhead and I absolutely despise that Album.

I guess it was their attempt to capitalize on their touring popularity of that era, but it was DOA to me.

[TransitJohn]

48. Barlow and Weir were real coked out then.

That era also gave us Tons of Steel.
Hey hippie!

[TransitJohn]

122. In the dark was good n/t

eom

[Old and In the Way]

127. I assume you've made a trip or two to www.archives.org?

That's the motherlode, right there.

[Old and In the Way]

126. I loved all their studio stuff up to those albums.

Wake of the Flood and Blues for Allah were incredibly great and totally creative - My 20 something daughter just borrowed my WOTF CD for a Nrw Years Party and she's now ripping the music from it to share with a bunch of people who raved on the sound. Alabama Getaway and In the Dark...meh. To each his own, I guess... OTOH, I think their live sound from that era with Brent was outstanding....sadly, the digital video recording technology was about 15 years too late to catch the early stuff - late 60's/nid-70's when I think they were in their most creative period.

I cannot argue with this, though - [l]None of the versions compare to the way they were done live.[/l] They were a fearless live band who took creative risks...they didn't always succeed, but when they were on, they were the best.

[socialist_n_TN]

156. This is probably sacrilige to a true Deadhead, but

Workingman's Dead was my favorite Dead album of all time. I think I wore out the grooves on that LP.

[hfojvt]

5. some people take their religions personally

Then they fight with those who don't properly revere it.

I think that's what the song is all about.

[hfojvt]

20. better inside my head than over it

that wooshing sound you hear ...

[SomethingFishy]

24. That's what Imagine is all about?

Well I must say it's an interpretation I have never heard before. But that is what great art is. People interpret what it means according to the baggage they bring with them when they judge the art.

BTW my interpretation is that Religion is a divider of men. Religion is used to make people hate one another. If you are a Jew you are one of "god's chosen people" if you are a Christian "all jews are going to hell" if you are a muslim all Christians and Jews are "infidels". Now as a member of one of these religions you may not believe in those dogma's but that is the position of your "church". I believe that John was trying to tell you to strip away all the bullshit and get in touch with the human being inside.

But that is my interpretation.

Since you are one of the shitters in another thread, well, I personally find your interpretation is suspect.

[hfojvt]

41. it appears that music is one of the dividers of men

It apparently divides us into "shitters" and true believers of Lennon. When I wrote "that is what the song is about" it was supposed to be fairly obvious sarcasm. Would Jesus want us to fight over Matthew 16: 18? Would Lennon want us to fight over "Imagine"?

Isn't the song supposed to be about living in peace? Yet you seem to have created a religion out of Lennon and the song Imagine, and are ready to hate and fight those who do not properly respect your new religion. They are heretics, er shitters.

[Jackpine Radical]

50. And if you're a Buddhist or a pagan or a Taoist or a Unitarian, everone else is gonna...

What?

A lot of religions haven't bothered to create places of torment to house the adherents of other faiths.

[roguevalley]

144. the assumption that ever believer believes every stupid thing someone

in their branch says is a suspect assumption but don't let that slow you down. That Gandhi and Desmond Tutu, what fuckers they are. Do I need a sarcasm smilie? Probably.

[southernyankeebelle]

6. Oh I am of that generation. I never liked this particular song. My favorite Beatle song was

Yesterday. However I don't think the man should have changed the song because it makes the song different. If he wanted to change it he should of asked the other Beatles or the creepy wife.

[quinnox]

10. "the creepy wife"

Congrats, you just ruined this poor guys day even more.

[southernyankeebelle]

23. He'll live to see another day instead of yesterday (living in the past) HAHAHAHA

[polmaven]

27. +++!

Thank you for saying it before I did.

[southernyankeebelle]

49. Your welcome. I felt I was right.

[justiceischeap]

16. I prefer Dear Prudence myself. :) nt

[southernyankeebelle]

26. Well thats ok I don't like either of those songs. Still love yesterday.

[SomethingFishy]

29. Eleanor Rigby and Paperback Writer are my favs...

if I had to choose. But really they had way too many good songs to pick from.

I think Yesterday gets chosen because it's such an easy damn song to cover. It's so basic and the melody is so catchy that it appeals to the lowest common denominator.

It's like when I discuss the Beatles with my mom, she loves the pop stuff but the psychedelics are beyond her grasp, she just can't understand that "weird stuff". LOL...

[southernyankeebelle]

84. I liked Eleanor Rigby but funny Paperback Writer was an easy song. Basic and the melody is catchy

like you said appeals to the lowest common denominator. HAHAHAHA. I hated most of the psychedelic music you know the "weird stuff". LOL Your ok there SomethingFishy. I'm just playing with you. You are entitled to your opinions. LOL

[CanSocDem]

35. It's the most 'covered' song of all time.

Or so I heard. Anyway, there was never one song. It was a long and wondrous trip from the 60's til their final show. My first favorite tune is All My Lovin'....spawned a religious experience in front of the television set.

.

[southernyankeebelle]

51. I have a Beatles CD with all the number one hits. My grandkids beg me to play it in the car all

the time. They are 6 and 10 yrs old. Their favorite is Yellow Submarine. We all have to sing it. I hate that song to death. But they love the Beatles. Its really nice to hear them because it brings back my youth and I remember where I was back then.

[yardwork]

88. The problem with Yesterday for me is that it was used in an anti-drinking public service film

starring Dick Van Dyke that I had to watch in my high school health class. Now whenever I hear Yesterday I think of Dick Van Dyke barfing in an alley.

Did anybody else see that movie? Mid-70s?

[Warren DeMontague]

95. Yeah

I could see how that might be a problem!

[yardwork]

98. It's terrible. Very strong visceral reaction.

[pipi_k]

106. "The Long and Winding Road" always

makes my heart ache.

And I like most of the songs on their "Abbey Road" album.

My favorite JL song is "The Ballad of John and Yoko".

[newspeak]

138. with you-"strawberry fields" or "lucy in the sky with diamonds"

I also love "isn't it a pity."

[HangOnKids]

17. This Song Had Nothing To Do With The Beatles It Is A Lennon Song

And your comment about Yoko is in very poor taste.

[southernyankeebelle]

40. I don't care what you think. I didn't ask anyone permission. It was MY opinion. I am entitled

to an opinion on this board. I thought I was being nice using that word. I could have put what I really thought of her but I didn't. Be happy with that. I didn't know it wasn't a Beatle song. I still don't like it. John was my least favorite Beatle anyway. He did nothing for me. However, I don't think he deserved to be murdered either. He was a good man.

[MagickMuffin]

67. D'oh, Imagine was not a Beatles song

It was a solo project.

And as for the "creepy wife" she is a better person than someone who would refer to to being creepy.

[southernyankeebelle]

83. Whine, whine, whine. Ask me if I give a dang what you think? Nope I don't care. It's

my opinion and not yours. I don't think I asked you for your opinion. But since you put your two cents in that is your opinion. Who cares the world won't end tommorrow if I think she is creepy and you don't. Really.

[uppityperson]

100. I am amused at your continued insults of other's opinions.

You seem to have missed the fact that if you post on a forum, people will give opinions.

You also seem to enjoy putting down or insulting anyone else's opinion. Ineresting.

[southernyankeebelle]

101. You know what. I really don't care what you think. You get back what you dish out.

[uppityperson]

104. In which case you should be amused by my post. Guess you aren't, which goes against

what you write here.

[southernyankeebelle]

110. Funny, your really funny. Let me ask you a question. Why is it alright for you to have a opinion,

yet you want to deprive me of mine? Just wondering. I can say someone is creepy if I want and you can disagree. That is ok. I am fine with that. But who are you to say I can't have a opinion? Just wondering.

[uppityperson]

112. "I don't think I asked you for your opinion."" I don't care.""I really don't care what you think"

All posts by you. Where am I trying to deprive you of an opinion? Where am I saying you "can't have an opinion"?

I am amused at your continuing insults of other's opinions and put downs of them. You say "You get back what you dish out" so, according to your logic, you should be amused. Oh yes, you also say "I really don't care what you think" yet you continue to reply and now are accusing me of something that you are doing.

Oh yes, I am amused.

[Laelth]

11. k&r for those who made the world a better and more beautiful place. n/t

-Laelth

[sabrina 1]

18. Isn't it sad that they ended up dying violent deaths. I wonder how different the world

would be if they had not?

[SomethingFishy]

65. I just finished replying to a post below

That acted like Lennon didn't do or change anything. He "rode the wave"... I thought it was funny that that "wave" lasted right up until John Lennon died and then the conservatives took over and started the flushing of America.

[tularetom]

15. Every word in your post is true and yet

I really think this is a non controversy. Nothing is too big or too sacred to be lampooned as far as I'm concerned and we should never take ourselves so seriously we can't stand it.

Yep, the Beatles did indeed change the world, but so did Jesus and people make jokes about him daily.

It isn't worth getting upset about. Keep in mind that 1 billion Chinese do not even give a rat's ass about it.

[SomethingFishy]

37. As I explained above I wasn't upset till I got here and found

people shitting on people who are upset.

All i tried to do was inject some perspective here on why people feel the way they do.

You do understand that saying "well it doesn't affect me so it shouldn't affect anyone else" is quite the Republican mantra. It's like saying well I don't need to be on food stamps so no one else does either.

The only controversy I see is liberals using this to bash other liberals. Which seems to be the point of DU3. It's like a schoolyard and everyone has split into groups that do nothing but chuck rocks at each other. I understand why people felt the need to post about the song, as I explained in the OP... What I don't understand is why so many choose to use someones emotions as a reason to attack them.

Frankly it's really, really, sad....

[southernyankeebelle]

46. Sorry we don't mean to hurt your feelings.

[tularetom]

54. It isn't in my nature to bash anybody

I'm pretty much a live and let live kind of guy.

And that's all I'm saying. Don't let the fact that people disagree with you bother you. Hell, my mom used to call me a communist back in the day and I'm pretty sure she was only half kidding. But I still loved her and yet I still believed what I believed.

[southernyankeebelle]

85. I bet they still are calling you a commie. We never lose that title when your a democratic. LOL

But I wear it as a badge of honor.

[tularetom]

96. Well, my mom doesn't call me that anymore

She passed away about 10 years ago. She never was one to keep her opinions to herself.

But yeah, I have a few family members who would call me that if they had the cojones. Son in law, nephews & nieces, even grand nephew and niece. But since I look like your average 70 year old redneck tea party member, I don't get that reaction from people who don't know me.

But I'm like you. To me there is no stigma attached to the term "communist". There are a lot worse things they could call me.

[southernyankeebelle]

99. LOL, well I consider myself really a social democrat like my mother was. My mother died years ago

to. I will be 64 next week. I love my government and I think the government should help its people. We pay taxes and therefore we should reep some of the benefits we have paid into all these years. You know like ssn and medicare (when its time).

[nolabels]

38. The religion of materialism

Perhaps a song,

Gotta Serve Somebody
by
Bob Dylan
http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=2935

I say why worry about anything, it's all just a means to the end anyway

[southernyankeebelle]

45. Well you just weren't a diehard Beatle fan. I loved the Beatles. But honestly no musician ever

effected me where I would go off the deep end. The Beatles were just one group I like but there were many groups back then that were just as great for me. Remember I said FOR ME. Don't go off the deep end. I happen to like alot of the motown music and yes even some of the other Brit bands. Back then our generation really had so many great groups to listen to.

[WingDinger]

22. When you make your outstanding members heroes, they can kill your movements. Also, you charicature t

[piratefish08]

30. 10 years from now this song will STILL be revered and this dude will still be irrelevant.

but probably just forgotten.

[Skidmore]

31. The Beatles and Lennon rode a wave of change brought about by a whole generation.

I don't give them as much power as you do. They were artists who gave a voice to the concerns of the time, as much as any other artist who cared about the same issues and gave voice to them did then.

The man was a great musician and vocalist. He was not divinity.

[justiceischeap]

32. He was and still is for some folks...

And there's nothing wrong with that. People find their faith where they find it.

[southernyankeebelle]

56. Amen. People need to keep prospective that is for sure. They did help give voice to many but

I don't think even the Beatles would consider themselves gods. Does anyone remember when one the of Bealtles (think it was John or maybe Paul) said they were more popular than Jesus? Something like that. Gees people went off the deep end.

[treestar]

74. Yeah, I'm not sure of the claim they "changed the world."

Did THEY cause the change? I doubt that.

[G_j]

76. they, especially Lennon, gave voice to a "generation", as did others.

We were all part of the changes.

[NathanTheGreat]

33. How dare he

Not that I was ever going to buy a Ceelow album (probably misspelled it) but I'm certain I won't now.

How the hell could you water down a great song so badly that you completely take away any meaning.

This was not a song that promoted religious tolerance...the message was if we didn't have an afterlife to fall back on...perhaps we would be more concerned with making Earth more of a liveable place.

If you don't like the message Ceelow, sing a different song. I'm sure "We Are The World" would have sounded better.

Imagine no religion, it's easy if you try.

[SomethingFishy]

59. Here's my thing... it was so bad it was funny.

Standing there with his fur coat and all his bling and singing a song about stripping away all wordly influence and thinking for yourself, and changing it to mean that Religion should be celebrated as "inclusive". It was so over the top and outrageous that for a minute I thought it was cleverly ironic.

Turns out it was just stupid. Which would have been fine but there is a segment of DU that lives to shit on people and they just couldn't pass up the opportunity.

[southernyankeebelle]

86. For me it changed the meaning of the song. But like I said life goes on and we have more

important things to worry about. John is gone we are all here. Remember the good he did and live right.

[handmade34]

149. you nailed it...

[monmouth]

34. Why is this OP not in Entertainment?...n/t

[SomethingFishy]

39. Same reasons the others aren't.

If it needs to be moved, have it moved.

Although I find a discussion of John Lennon much more interesting than the latest Greenwald or Ron Paul thread, that's just me.

[monmouth]

58. True story about John Lennon. I worked for an attorney and his wife here in Palm Beach. She

would often regale us with the story of her husband (my boss, very repub, former FBI, loved J. Edgar) who was looking out his kitchen window one day at their Palm Beach home. "Marie, come here. Who the hell is that long-haired guy with the overalls in the backyard. Looks like a hippie to me." Marie: "That's John Lennon, he and Ono bought the house a few months ago. His wife is an artist and she's working with a new gallery." He: "Who's John Lennon?" Anyway, the conversation continued for a while, the boss decides to go outside and meet this famous hippie he's never heard of. He calls over the fence to Lennon and John turns, doesn't drop immediately what he's doing and finally saunters over to meet the boss. They spoke for about ten minutes. Boss comes back in the house and tells wife "What a nice young man, told me about a couple of books I should read. Do they drink? Should we have them to dinner?

Very typical of Palm Beach, the first important question being "does he drink?..LOL. Thought you would enjoy. Ono is still with that gallery and has a show every year to which I usually go.

[southernyankeebelle]

87. I think its in the right place. Don't move it. People are being respectful. Some may not agree bu

we all have opinions and should express them freely.

[JVS]

36. Meh, the bad boy of a glorified boy band. Big fucking deal.

[provis99]

42. so, does snobbily shitting on Bieber and Swift fans make your sanctimonious self feel better?

[Skidmore]

53. We had a Beiber in my day...

his name was Donny Osmond. Beibers are a dime a dozen and they serve the purpose of making adolescent girls scream.

[SomethingFishy]

69. Osmond, the Cassidy brothers,

Leif Garret... Shit I'm sure there are more.

And not to disagree but I think their purpose is to suck the wallets of the parents of 12 year old girls dry..

[cyberswede]

139. OMG - more than you know!

It's the hair!

[SomethingFishy]

55. Well, I am a roadie. I toured with Taylor Swift

for over a year. My best bud was her Pro-Tools guy. Do you know what the "Pro-Tools" guy does? He runs the backing track, the auto-tune the vocal doubling tracks. You know all the stuff you hear coming from the PA... LOL... Psst.. Carrie Underwood too...

Swift gets points from me for defying all Nashville standards by writing her own songs. She is an accomplished songwriter. As a performer she is all Circus and no substance. She also scores for being great to her crew. She is a nice kid and her dad is a great guy.

Then there's Bieber, a you tube sensation not much better than a shower singer, just in the right place at the right time. The amount of money spent on this one kids dead end career could have been spent on hundreds of real bands who are out there every day playing live, paying their dues, honing their skills.



If you think Swift and Bieber are examples of good musicians then I feel bad for you. They are examples of Corporate music. Designed for the masses by the masses to make as much money as possible.

Hell while I am on my "snobby self-righteous" rant lets go after American Idol as well. Totally ruined the fucking music industry. Took nothing but a bunch of shower singers, told them what to sing, how to sing, how to act, how to stand, how to dress, how to interact with the audience. Yeah thats just what we need, art created by a fucking checklist.

Hey, what was your question again?

[provis99]

123. the Beatles and John Lennon were boring, overrated clowns.

they were about as profound as a brain fart on LSD.

Their music is as outdated as year-old milk, and frankly, the fans they attracted were the original twit-headed bobby sox screamers who moved on to Peter Frampton when their musical tastes matured and grew more coherent.

[tomp]

132. wow!

of course, you're entitled to your opinion.

[LanternWaste]

147. I imagine we often dismiss with an effete disdain those things which we merely don't like...

I imagine we often dismiss with an effete disdain those things which we merely don't like... it allows us to view our sensibilities as greater than they actually are.

[LiberalLovinLug]

148. Wow 2!

Of course not all music appeals to all people. Understandable. I just feel kind of sorry for you not being able to enjoy or value the Beatles contribution to musical history. There is pretty well any kind of song for any age in their library. Even my religious fundy brother-in-law and his family have Beatle CDs in their car for road trips. I am always amazed that they are able to mumble over the Imagine lyrics and selectively block them out.

And putting one-hit-wonder Peter Frampton with his vocalizer gimmick in the same sentence as the Beatles is ...*bites tongue*.....unique.

[southernyankeebelle]

89. I'm not a fan of either. Hey someone loves their music.

[gratuitous]

43. Well . . .

All I have to say about that is, "Welcome to DU," home of "decent" bigotries and prejudices. Look around, and you'll find many, many more.

[southernyankeebelle]

90. Gee,tell us what you really think? LOL

[HuckleB]

52. I dunno.

It's kind of odd to show a thin skin, and then wonder why others might jump at the chance to get some free digs.

[SomethingFishy]

57. Why is it thin skinned if people

are upset about something that has changed their lives?

It may seem thin skinned to you but you are not everyone.

[HuckleB]

60. It's a song.

I love the song, but my life is not changed because someone sang with a varied lyric. Nor is my life changed by those who hate the books that have changed my life. Nor are the lives of the religious changed when gays marry.

Etc... etc... etc...

[SomethingFishy]

62. You keep saying "I, me,"

You are not everyone. Why is it so hard to understand that you are not everyone. Not everyone was raised the way you were, not everyone is quite as apathetic about different things, not everyone has your baggage.

I had a conversation with a person I consider a friend. This person was very stand offish, people couldn't figure out why he didn't like to hang out, why he was so quiet. So one day I asked him,
why can't you be like everyone else and come out and hang out and have fun with us. Well after a long conversation and enough pot and beer to loosen him up, my friend told me why. As a child he watched his father shoot his mother and then kill himself. He spent years after that being bounced around from foster care family to foster care family. He grew up alone and that was what he knew.

From that day forward I no longer assumed everyone was like me.

[southernyankeebelle]

92. Yes I relate to that story. Some people are standoffish for many reasons. You can understand

your friends feelings. The other guy might feel the same about one of his own friends. All he is trying to say its a song, a song. I don't know how old you are. I have a feeling you are young. When a person is young they have such ideals. When you get older and have lived a long life you see things in prospective. A song is a song. Lovely that it is. Tommorrow is another day and life goes on. Those are the facts. When I was young I lived through my music. But you get older and reality is here and now. Nothing changes. As you get older you will see.

[HuckleB]

121. That is one large load of logical fallacies.

You are not harmed by someone changing the lyrics to a song.

If you can't figure that out, then how are you different from those who claim to be harmed by gays getting married?

[Cal Carpenter]

61. "where things would have been without him"

C'mon, really? Where are things? Environmental destruction rampant with no end in sight thanks to capitalism, wealth disparity and exploitation worse then almost any other time in history throughout the globe, more young, poor and especially black people in prison than ever before for non-violent crimes (I could go on and on and on)? This so-called 'seismic shift in consciousness' hasn't done shit to change conditions for the *vast majority* of the people on earth. A few laws may have been changed back then, and at the time they seemed monumental, but really, conditions have not changed and the concentration of wealth and power globally is measurably much worse.

I understand this is clearly an emotional thing for you but there's no need for hyperbole like this. It isn't helping your case.

And for the record, the song Imagine was once a very deep and poignant thing for me on a personal level too. I'm a little more old-school-Rolling-Stones-shit-kicking-attitude lately, but I am honestly not trying to be insensitive. You are talking about this in General Discussion of a political forum, not a Beatles/Lennon fan club site.

Just saying.

[SomethingFishy]

64. So John Lennon had no effect on anything.

Thanks for the info. Funny how all the things that are horribly wrong that you mention, started coming about, right after John Lennon died.

The 60's and 70's were a shift. The 80's brought about a backlash against that shift and for the last 30 years we have been dealing with a Conservative Onslaught in America.

Damn shame liberals don't have a "leader" who could help them unite against what is wrong with this country.

We used to. He got shot.

[Dorian Gray]

72. Okay

I love the Beatles. And John is my favorite of the four. But this post? It's a little over the top.

I mean, I thought Cee Lo Green's rendition was a travesty for many reasons, but extreme hand wringing over the situation isn't going to help anyone. And Lennon was a singer, not a world leader. He was a great singer and had many great causes, but he was an extremely flawed man. (Which I think made him more interesting, but he was flawed.)

[deutsey]

131. If you read interviews with him, you see how Lennon was the first to admit his flaws

I think he said something like in order to make it as big as the Beatles did you have to be a real bastard.

That's just a soundbite version of other things he said.

[getdown]

68. almost

where things are without him is a consolidated media stranglehold
and a public that knows
if leaders stick their head up
it might get shot off

[getdown]

63. well put

that's why they killed him

[SomethingFishy]

66. A quick note before I go.... I do not have any kind of

hard on for John Lennon. I liked him and I believe all I said about him.

But Roger Waters is my guy. No one can make you think hard like he can.


I posted this in defense of people who feel and against the people who use those feelings against them to make a political point.

I find it purposefully cruel and genuinely mean. I find the same meanness when people brag about how great they are doing in the faces of people who are suffering for one reason or another.

And as with everything this is all MHO.

Personally I'd like to see us get together to beat the republicans like dogs, but the truth is that is not going to happen. If we win it will be because they sucked really bad, not because we were united in common goals.

This thread, the other threads and the responses are all just symptoms of the bigger disease.

[getdown]

70. you hit it

in 62. You keep saying "I, me,"

that's how bad it's gotten

[Bonobo]

79. +1 for Roger Waters. nt

[go west young man]

145. I for one can definitely relate to ya.

Love Lennon and Waters. U2 fans are metaphorically what DU has become. They aren't that edgy anymore, they come from all over the map, they all want their singers to sing and just shut up. DU lacks serious balls these days. That's what happens I suppose when you become mainstream. I personally think Joseph Campbell had it right about the artists and musicians ushering in the future "Golden Age". True artists have an amazing ability to see the world and it's issues. Music used to be about raising consciousness and bringing people together.Hence Live Aid. These days it seems mainstream music is mainly a selfish endevour similar to politics. Personally I think the reason Bill O'Reillys tell musicians to shut up is because they are afraid of the power of music to bring people together for a good cause. Intellectually musicians and artists are far ahead of politicians (Roger Waters Perfect Sense comes to mind). If people would have taken Waters serious back in the 90's the entire last 12 years of Mid East bollocks may have been avoided. I wouldn't expect much from people here though who chide Yoko Ono or cast John Lennon off as just an angry badboy. Be content that you are on the right path when it comes to believing in the right cause. "Imagine" was as you said an anti religion song and this CeeLo fella doesn't have a clue. Alas the US is a fucked up religious country that accepts all opinions even if they are misinformed. The US is also a capitalist buy any and sell anything for a buck land. The music industry in this day and age will continue to pump out drivel and the saps will keep lapping it up. Consciousness isn't currently high on the priority list in the US or at DU at the moment.

[Bonobo]

71. Ironically the big doofus sang "Imagine if all religion is true".

I guess he didn't think too carefully about it.

And no, one hit song does NOT qualify you to change John's lyrics.

He should be criticized for having an ego as big as his stomach and for delivering an uninspiring performance more than for changing the lyrics.

The way he sang his changed lyrics, it is like he said "All religions are NOT true". LOL

[progdog]

77. +1

n/t

[whistler162]

75. Soggy diaper alert!

[Strelnikov_]

78. Backstory? As for Lennon, following is my favorite

[randome]

80. Didn't ruin my day.

I stay away from pointless discussions like this.

Oh, wait...

[ejbr]

81. lighten up francis n/t

[HangOnKids]

108. Ugh. Yuck.

I don't think francis likes you either.

[ejbr]

114. As if I care

whether "Francis" or John Lennon likes me.

[HangOnKids]

116. Aren't you special

Try harder next time sport.

[fishwax]

91. I guess I've missed the threads where people are shitting on Lennon's fans

I did see the thread complaining about the change, but I haven't seen these others you speak of. I'll look for them.

Of course, not all Lennon fans or all people who care about the song are upset. I think that single performance was perfectly irrelevant in the grand scheme of Lennon's legacy, and the tweaking of lyrics (which has a history far older than that song, to be sure) in performance doesn't bother me. I may think a particular change is good or bad (and think this case is certainly the latter), but I can't imagine getting upset about it, personally.

Some, though, are upset, and they're welcome to be. It won't ruin my day.

[Throd]

93. One man's transformative musical experience is another man's sappy dirge.

As a person who came of age in the 80's, I was frequently reminded by older folk of how wonderful and special the music of the late 60's was and how nothing can compare to it's brilliance and depth. While I did (and still do) appreciate the music of that era, it was yesterday's news and didn't speak to me like the punk bands of 1983. Now in 2012 I would expect a 15 year old to view 80's hardcore as a bunch of overly distorted noise and angry yelling. Most of the music teens like these days seems silly to me, but it isn't for me anyway. It has been this way for a few thousand years and will always be this way.

If somebody is going to butcher a Dead Kennedys cover and change the lyrics I might revel at its badness, but I am not going to act as if something sacrosanct has been corrupted.

[Withywindle]

140. Agreed.

Punk arose in the first place in part in reaction to the deification of 60s musicians, a lot of whom had gotten rich and lazy. It's fine to have heroes, but that attitude that "Music will never be as great as it was when I was young" completely kills creativity. Most musical movements have been in some way in reaction against what came before - it's that kind of creative tension that leads to good new stuff being made.

What cheeses me off the most about the OP is the assumption that Justin Bieber and Taylor Swift are the sum total of 2010's music. Because of course the 60s had no plastic teen idols with little substance, right? It was ALL enduring genius back then! Sure.

Fellow child of the 80s here: most of the greatest music of the 80s was never heard except by people who cared enough to go out of their way to seek it out. If all you listened to was pop radio (an industry Boomers controlled by that point), you would have never known it existed. The same is true of the 90s, the 2000s, and the 2010s. Corporate rock/pop sucked then, and it sucks now. To judge whole generations by that is just condescending and ignorant.

My life was changed by X and the Minutemen and Husker Du and the Birthday Party and early Sonic Youth and Diamanda Galas and even early R.E.M. My favorite 60s artists are the Velvet Underground and Captain Beefheart. This isn't a hipper-than-thou thing, none of those artists are really obscure. It's where I was when I was still young enough to believe that music can change the world.

I think if anyone pitched a giant hissy about someone changing a Dead Kennedys lyric, Jello Biafra would laugh and laugh and laugh.

[pitohui]

102. nice post, somethingfishy

those who never get upset about art or music don't really care about art or music

[MilesColtrane]

117. Or, they only care about it as a lifestyle accessory.

...an aid in projecting their preferred persona to others.

[handmade34]

150. our art is who we are as a people

our art gives us meaning, gives our lives perspective... I can't even imagine not caring about music (art)

[WillyT]

103. K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

[Zorra]

119. +1

[undeterred]

105. How many posts do we really need on this?

[WillyT]

107. Sorry For The Unintended Pun... But It Hits Too Many Chords...

Do I really need to list them ?

[HangOnKids]

109. You can trash threads if you don't approve

You just kicked this worthy thread. Thanks friend.

[undeterred]

115. Yeah, but if I trash it I can't read the replies...

[HangOnKids]

120. Ah yes concerned about something being said about you

Bye bye.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

125. Gimme a break

The real tragedy was Bieber's rendition of "Let It Be".

[malaise]

129. Very well said

[renate]

130. I dunno... I kind of liked it

I think if everybody respected everybody else's beliefs (including atheists' beliefs), the world would almost certainly be a better place. I'm not commenting on the furs and gold chains the guy was wearing or whether the original lyrics ought to be sacrosanct; I'm just saying that (although I told my kids "wait, that's not right..." at the time) I think the change he made to the lyrics was not all that bad--as long as "all religions true" included people's right not to believe in a deity. Otherwise, I'm with you on the

[barbtries]

134. i'm on your side.

you may be a dreamer, but you're not the only one.

[LanternWaste]

136. How people react to a cover of a song is of little regard to me...

How people react to a cover of a song is of little regard to me, and hardly warrants annoyance let alone it ruining my day.

I think Tchaikovsky is the best musician I'm aware to have ever been born. I believe he "changed the world and n a seismic shift of consciousness." I also enjoy listening to as many orchestras as possible perform the finale from his Fourth Symphony-- because I like hearing as many interpretations of it as I can.

[bvar22]

137. Cirque du Soleil tribute to The Beatles was MAGNIFICENT!!!

PBS did a fundraiser showing clips of Cirque du Soleil performances,
and included a segment on their tribute to The Beatles.
The 30 minute segment featured old clips of John Lennon,
as well as Paul, Yoko, and Ringo's attendance and thoughts on Cirque's creation.

Don't miss a chance to see this PBS presentation.
I have NEVER in my life had an inclination to visit Las Vegas,
but I would consider it to be able to attend this performance.

They captured the Magic, Majesty, and Celebration of LOVE & LIFE that WAS The Beatles!

I am SOOOO glad I am old enough to have experienced them First Hand.
It WAS a magical time,
A Magical Mystery Tour that changed The World!

[PassingFair]

141. "Imagine" is pretty much the "Atheist Ballad".

So changing those particular words was just crazy and a slap in the face to non-religious people.

Whenever atheists talk amongst ourselves and ask what "atheist" songs we like, that one always tops the list.

(With a lot of votes for RUSH songs, too)



It would be like Ricky Gervais singing "Dog Bless America", or changing the
lyrics of "Let it Be" from "mother Mary comes to me, speaking words of wisdom"
to "all the gods and goddesses come to me, talkin' trash".

As an atheist Cee-lo's version did surprise me piss me off, but it in no way "ruined" my New Year's Eve.

[JoeyT]

142. I can understand why you're upset.

Though, if you think the only music out there is Taylor Swift or Justin Bieber, you should probably stop listening to pop stations.

There are bands out there right now with music just as insightful and meaningful as anything Lennon ever wrote. (I'm sure I or others could suggest a whole bunch if you want to give it a shot. ) While ensuring people don't shit on your favorite musician, you might want to avoid shitting on the music of the last forty years.

I can definitely identify with the growing up in a conservative town with music as an outlet part, though.

[roguevalley]

146. "I understand. Not everyone can grasp the concept of music having a powerful effect on peoples lives

Perception is individual. For some music is just background noise.

For some, the Lord of the Rings is a book. For Stephen Colbert, its a religion.

You are pissed that everyone doesn't share your level of commitment to the Beatles and what John Lennon wrote. Welcome to the real world. Not everyone does. So what? Enjoy what you believe and need. Who cares about the rest? You going on about the inadequacies of others as perceived by you only looks odd. Not everyone cares what everyone else loves or needs.

And frankly, there are a lot of awesome people out there who don't care about this. Doesn't make them as small as you insinuate.

RV, who was a beatles fan since forever

[yellowcanine]

152. I like the Beatles and "Imagine" by John Lennon but I have no idea what you are ranting about.

And I suspect that most of the people who do didn't have their day "ruined" by your opinion. Could it be that you are seriously OVER REACTING here? Anger and stress isn't good for your health, you know.

[apocalypsehow]

153. Except, the only thing that "changed" after "Kennedy was killed" is the U.S. got MORE LIBERAL,

more progressive, not less.

It was LBJ that got us the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Voting Rights Act of 1965, and the Fair Housing Act of 1968, not Kennedy.

It was LBJ that got us Medicare, Federal funding of education, highway beautification, the nation's first far-reaching environmental legislation, and the National Endowment of the Arts, not Kennedy.

For crying out loud, JFK was still asking African ambassador's to "fly down" to Washington D.C. from the UN rather than drive down and cause a fuss with the segregated restaurants in Delaware and Maryland as late as 1962. That's hardly the act of a liberal beacon of courage. It was Lyndon Johnson who was the liberal hero of the 1960s, not the Kennedy brothers.

[go west young man]

155. Ceelo needs to educate himself.

Mark David Chapman used to hand out those little red bibles on the streets of Atlanta, Georgia many moons before he killed John Lennon. It was a religious idiot who killed John Lennon. Ceelo's misuse of the song is a double slap in the face to Lennon. Chapman was a religious nut most of his life. He turned against Lennon, who was once one of his hero's, because of the "bigger than Jesus" quote. Religion was something I'm pretty sure Lennon despised. Ceelo should learn to write his own fucking songs.