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Wed Sep 12, 2018, 08:26 PM

Michael Moore is right about many things, but he always leaves out one CRUCIAL issue.

i've seen him do this since the 2004 election theft and he is still doing it. When he talks about why we "lost", he does not factor in the extreme vulnerability of our election infrastructure and all the cheating:

Gerrymandering

Voter suppression in its many forms: voter ID laws, purging registration data bases, etc.

Vulnerablity of voting systems themselves, paperless unauditable higly hackable voting machines and central tabulators.

And now we have Russian attacks, including infiltrating over half the states' voter reg databases, and we know very little has been done to remedy this since 2016 because the GOP finds it favorable to them.

Of course we must do everything we can with GOTV, etc. and Moore makes some excellent points, but why does he not address this one critical HUGE issue? He can't possibly still be ignorant.

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Reply Michael Moore is right about many things, but he always leaves out one CRUCIAL issue. (Original post)
Amaryllis Sep 12 OP
JI7 Sep 12 #1
WhiteTara Sep 12 #18
Cha Sep 13 #23
Cha Sep 13 #21
YessirAtsaFact Sep 12 #2
we can do it Sep 12 #3
qazplm135 Sep 12 #4
we can do it Sep 12 #8
Zambero Sep 12 #11
nolabear Sep 12 #5
manor321 Sep 12 #6
Agschmid Sep 12 #7
Amaryllis Sep 12 #10
Hoyt Sep 12 #9
Amaryllis Sep 12 #12
diva77 Sep 12 #13
Amaryllis Sep 12 #15
localroger Sep 12 #14
Amaryllis Sep 12 #16
localroger Sep 12 #17
diva77 Sep 12 #19
localroger Sep 13 #28
SharonClark Sep 12 #20
localroger Sep 13 #27
diva77 Sep 13 #25
localroger Sep 13 #29
Cha Sep 13 #22
spanone Sep 13 #24
all american girl Sep 13 #26

Response to Amaryllis (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2018, 08:27 PM

1. it would get in the way of his message

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Response to JI7 (Reply #1)

Wed Sep 12, 2018, 09:09 PM

18. yeppers.

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Response to WhiteTara (Reply #18)

Thu Sep 13, 2018, 12:14 AM

23. Remember this.. the Ashley Judd part.. ?

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Response to JI7 (Reply #1)

Thu Sep 13, 2018, 12:02 AM

21. EXACTLY. I was just going to say.. Because..

it doesn't fit his agenda and he knows some will fall for it.

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Response to Amaryllis (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2018, 08:28 PM

2. Maybe he isn't really trying to help democrats-Sabotaged Gore in 2001

He's one of those "both parties are the same" assholes.

Never mind elect-ability, let's make sure our candidates check all of the liberal boxes. And then lose.

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Response to Amaryllis (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2018, 08:29 PM

3. I can't even watch the idiots on Chris Hayes.

Can not.

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Response to we can do it (Reply #3)

Wed Sep 12, 2018, 08:30 PM

4. they were handpicked to make a specific argument

and IMO they don't reflect reality.

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Response to qazplm135 (Reply #4)

Wed Sep 12, 2018, 08:31 PM

8. I hope you are right.

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Response to qazplm135 (Reply #4)

Wed Sep 12, 2018, 08:35 PM

11. Right, they must be "inspired"

With that self-defeating mindset, it's far easier for the "uninspired" to end up poisoned or disenfranchised by decisions made from outside of their own community.

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Response to Amaryllis (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2018, 08:30 PM

5. I'm watching him right now on Chris Hayes. He did.

One of the first things he mentioned is that no one was willing to change this slave state creation and the elections back to Bush/Gore had been affected.

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Response to Amaryllis (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2018, 08:30 PM

6. I don't listen to him anymore

He (and many others) ignore the MASSIVE conservative media giants aligned against us. That massive propaganda that is pushed every day is extremely difficult to fight.

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Response to Amaryllis (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2018, 08:30 PM

7. Disagree, this whole thing on Chris Hayes is ridiculous.

Turned it off, I don’t need to watch “I Couldn’t vote for the lesser of two evils” idiots.

What a waste.

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Response to Agschmid (Reply #7)

Wed Sep 12, 2018, 08:34 PM

10. WAtched that all of about two minutes and it was what prompted me to do this post. Arrgh.

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Response to Amaryllis (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2018, 08:32 PM

9. As far as Prez, we just didn't vote for our candidate like we should have.

Moore predicted that before the election.

One can vote by mail in most states and early. With very few exceptions, there is no reason not to vote. If you know an exception, call the local Democratic organization and get registration and voting help. It’s available.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #9)

Wed Sep 12, 2018, 08:35 PM

12. He did predict that, and as I said, everythign he says is true, AND he ignores issues with

election integrity and far as the structure itself , and that is critical to address.

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Response to Amaryllis (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2018, 08:44 PM

13. All discussions of how rethugs "won" in 2016 should begin with election fraud. I have heard so many

academics pontificating on other factors 'til they're blue in the face without ever accounting for the elephant in the living room. It makes a person wonder about who is funding their research, perhaps.


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Response to diva77 (Reply #13)

Wed Sep 12, 2018, 08:56 PM

15. My thoughts exactly. The literal and figurative elephant in the room! If one considers the GOP a

literal elephant.

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Response to Amaryllis (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2018, 08:56 PM

14. I think MM knows vote suppression is a problem

But I think he also thinks it isn't the biggest problem, because you can only steal an election that's already close. Gerrymandering can look devastating in a close race, but let the "disadvantaged" candidate pull out far enough in the popular vote and it reverses, becoming even more devastating to its perpetrators. If you have an energized electorate and your opponents are dispirited, if your message is strong and theirs is weak and doesn't hold up, if your candidates are strong and theirs are unlikable or obviously corrupt, then vote suppression and gerrymandering become much less of a factor. In fact they become yet another energizing factor to bring out your base, who knows they are in an uphill battle.

The real problem isn't all these factors that can swing an election 5-10%. It's the fact that these evil shitheads manage to get within 5-10% of candidates that aren't evil shitheads in the first place. A lot of that is down to propaganda, and that's the battle Michael Moore is fighting. Gerrymandering only gets you past the gate if you can get 40% in a fair election. And the real problem is that over 40% of our population willingly votes for the evil shitheads almost every time.

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Response to localroger (Reply #14)

Wed Sep 12, 2018, 08:59 PM

16. 2018 wasn't close. Trump only "won" the electoral vote by less than 100,000 votes and lost the

popluar vote by 3 million.

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Response to Amaryllis (Reply #16)

Wed Sep 12, 2018, 09:07 PM

17. In a country of 350,000,000 people 3 million is close.

It means that even when you factor in the ineligible and stay-at-homes something like sixty million people voted for DJT. I think MM would say that is the real problem, fix that and no amount of election day fiddling will put the shitheads over the top.

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Response to localroger (Reply #17)

Wed Sep 12, 2018, 11:09 PM

19. The 3 million figure doesn't account for the people thrown off the voter rolls due to caging,

machines that break down in the polling place on election day, incorrect registrations causing voters to have to use provisional ballots which "spoil" more easily, insufficient machines provided at polling places causing huge lines resulting in people failing to vote due to time constraints, votes not being recorded as cast due to malicious code, etc etc etc.

3 million is probably not even close to the actual number by which Dump lost the popular vote.

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Response to diva77 (Reply #19)

Thu Sep 13, 2018, 07:32 PM

28. All those things you mention

...probably do not account for more than 2-3 million voters at most. That sounds like a lot, but it isn't, out of 130 million voters. Yes those things should be fought, but Moore is working at a higher level; keep those 60 million people from voting for the shithead in the first place, and the cheating won't take it over the top.

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Response to localroger (Reply #17)

Wed Sep 12, 2018, 11:20 PM

20. Not getting your point...

The US population in 2016 was 322,762,018, not 350,000,000.
Estimated 128,838,432 voted in the presidential election.
Confused by "3 million is close" - close to what?

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Response to SharonClark (Reply #20)

Thu Sep 13, 2018, 07:30 PM

27. It's not rocket science

If 130 million people voted and the margin was 3 million, that's close. It's less than three percent. That is within the margin of error of nearly all polls.

The bottom line is that nearly half of American voters really did vote for the shithead. If only thirty million had voted for him no amount of caging, gerrymandering, and other shenanegans would have worked. Those things only work because it was close to start with.

Moore's point is that it shouldn't be close. Getting it that close was the work of propaganda, and fixing that can only be done by more, better counter-propaganda. And that's what Moore does. Cluttering his message with stuff about the vote cheating would actually dilute his message by distracting his listeners.

Not to say that cheating isn't a problem and shouldn't be addressed, just that Moore is doing other things important for different reasons and there is a reason the cheating isn't his focus.

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Response to localroger (Reply #17)

Thu Sep 13, 2018, 01:22 AM

25. Greg Palast lays out the numbers and explains how the 2016 election was stolen

https://www.gregpalast.com/election-stolen-heres/

The Election Was Stolen – Here’s How…
November 11, 2016
Greg Palast

Before a single vote was cast, the election was fixed by GOP and Trump operatives.

Starting in 2013 – just as the Supreme Court gutted the Voting Rights Act – a coterie of Trump operatives, under the direction of Kris Kobach, Kansas Secretary of State, created a system to purge 1.1 million Americans of color from the voter rolls of GOP–controlled states.

The system, called Crosscheck, is detailed in my Rolling Stone report,
“The GOP’s Stealth War on Voters,” 8/24/2016.

Crosscheck in action:
Trump victory margin in Michigan: 13,107
Michigan Crosscheck purge list: 449,922

Trump victory margin in Arizona: 85,257
Arizona Crosscheck purge list: 270,824

Trump victory margin in North Carolina: 177,008
North Carolina Crosscheck purge list: 589,393

On Tuesday, we saw Crosscheck elect a Republican Senate and as President, Donald Trump. The electoral putsch was aided by nine other methods of attacking the right to vote of Black, Latino and Asian-American voters, methods detailed in my book and film, including “Caging,” “purging,” blocking legitimate registrations, and wrongly shunting millions to “provisional” ballots that will never be counted.

--------------------
and he doesn't even explore malicious code possibilities with the voting machines & tabulators

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Response to diva77 (Reply #25)

Thu Sep 13, 2018, 07:36 PM

29. There are always seemingly damning anecdata

The fact is it was a big election, and yes it was swung by concentrating on a few key swing areas that were far more important than they should have been. If only 30,000,000 people had voted for the shithead instead of 60,000,000, though, it wouldn't have mattered what they did where. That is the most damning fact of the election, nearly half of the electorate really did vote for the shithead, and that would still be true if all the people blocked from voting (maybe 2-3 million) had been allowed to vote. All the jiggering in the world would not have put him over if that had been 25% instead. It could only be stolen because it was close enough to steal.

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Response to Amaryllis (Original post)

Thu Sep 13, 2018, 12:13 AM

22. Once I got to be on CNN! (Once.) It was the day of the Women's March. It was so huge! And Moore..

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Response to Amaryllis (Original post)

Thu Sep 13, 2018, 12:15 AM

24. K&R...

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Response to Amaryllis (Original post)

Thu Sep 13, 2018, 08:03 AM

26. Let's face it

Michael Moore wins when there is chaos and a Republican in office. He can go out, make his docs, and people pay to see them. If Hillary had been elected, there wouldn't be that much of an audience for him. So this works out pretty good for him. A lot of liberals and progressives win financially when there are Republicans running the show. I'm beginning to think that their financial worth is more important than our democracy and our lives. All works out for them, just not us.

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