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niyad

(113,066 posts)
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 01:17 PM Sep 2018

Mormon Mountain Meadows Massacre--11 Sept 1857

(the movie "September Dawn" has the massacre as a background part of the story)
A Utah Massacre And Mormon Memory



As families tramp all over the country this summer, visiting historic sites, there's one spot -- Mountain Meadows in southwestern Utah -- that won't be on many itineraries. Mountain Meadows, a two-hour drive from one of the state's popular tourist destinations, Zion National Park, is the site of what the historian Geoffrey Ward has called ''the most hideous example of the human cost exacted by religious fanaticism in American history until 9/11.'' And while it might not be a major tourist destination, for a century and a half the massacre at Mountain Meadows has been the focus of passionate debate among Mormons and the people of Utah. It is a debate that cuts to the core of the basic tenets of Mormonism. This, the darkest stain on the history of the religion, is a bitter reality and challenging predicament for a modern Mormon Church struggling to shed its extremist history.

On Sept. 11, 1857, in a meadow in southwestern Utah, a militia of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or Mormons, attacked a wagon train of Arkansas families bound for California. After a five-day siege, the militia persuaded the families to surrender under a flag of truce and a pledge of safe passage. Then, in the worst butchery of white pioneers by other white pioneers in the entire colonization of America, approximately 140 men, women and children were slaughtered. Only 17 children under the age of 8 -- the age of innocence in the Mormon faith -- were spared.

After the massacre, the church first claimed that local Paiute Indians were responsible, but as evidence of Mormon involvement mounted, it placed the sole blame for the killings on John D. Lee, a militia member and a Mormon zealot who was also the adopted son of the prophet Brigham Young. After nearly two decades, as part of a deal for statehood, Lee was executed by a firing squad in 1877. The church has been reluctant to assume responsibility -- labelling Lee a renegade -- but several historians, including some who are Mormon, believe that church leaders, though never prosecuted, ordered the massacre.

Now, 146 years later, Lee's descendants and the victims' relatives have been pressing the Mormon Church for an apology. The move for some official church acknowledgment began in the late 1980's, when a group of Lee descendants, including a former United States secretary of the interior, Stewart Udall, began working to clear their ancestor's name. In 1990, descendants of victims and perpetrators began urging the Mormon Church to accept responsibility for the massacre and to rebuild a crumbling landmark established at the site by United States Army troops in 1859.


The current church president, Gordon B. Hinckley -- himself a prophet who says he receives divine revelations -- took a personal interest in the episode, and in 1998 he agreed to restore the landmark where at least some of the bodies were buried. But even that concession turned controversial when, in August 1999, a church contractor's backhoe accidentally unearthed the bones of 29 victims. After a debate between Utah state officials and church leaders -- what has been called Utah's ''unique church-state tango'' -- about state laws requiring unearthed bones to be forensically examined for cause of death, the church had the remains quickly reburied without any extensive examination that might have drawn new attention to the brutality of the murders.



. . . .

https://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/24/opinion/a-utah-massacre-and-mormon-memory.html


Mountain Meadows Massacre
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Date September 7–11, 1857
Location Mountain Meadows, Utah Territory, United States
Deaths 120–140 members of the Baker–Fancher wagon train
Non-fatal injuries Around 17
Accused Utah Territorial Militia (Iron County district), Paiute Native American auxiliaries
Weapons Guns, Bowie knives

The Mountain Meadows Massacre was a series of attacks on the Baker–Fancher emigrant wagon train, at Mountain Meadows in southern Utah. The attacks began on September 7, 1857, and culminated on September 11, 1857, resulting in the mass slaughter of the emigrant party by members of the Utah Territorial Militia from the Iron County district and purportedly aided by Native American allies. The extent to which Native Americans participated in the massacre is disputed and up until recent decades much of the blame for the massacre was unjustly attributed to the Native Americans.[1] The militia, officially called the Nauvoo Legion, was composed of southern Utah's Mormon settlers (members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or the LDS Church). Intending to leave no witnesses and thus prevent reprisals, the perpetrators killed all the adults and older children—about 120 men, women, and children in total. Seventeen children, all younger than seven, were spared.

The wagon train, mostly families from Arkansas, was bound for California on a route that passed through the Utah Territory, during a conflict later known as the Utah War. After arriving in Salt Lake City, the Baker–Fancher party made their way south, eventually stopping to rest at Mountain Meadows. While the emigrants were camped at the meadow, nearby militia leaders, including Isaac C. Haight and John D. Lee, joined forces to organize an attack on the wagon train. Intending to give the appearance of Native American aggression, the militia's plan was to arm some Southern Paiute Native Americans and persuade them to join with a larger party of their own militiamen—disguised as Native Americans—in an attack. During the militia's first assault on the wagon train the emigrants fought back, and a five-day siege ensued. Eventually fear spread among the militia's leaders that some emigrants had caught sight of white men and had likely discovered the identity of their attackers. As a result militia commander William H. Dame ordered his forces to kill the emigrants.

By this time the emigrants were running low on water and provisions, and allowed some approaching members of the militia—who carried a white flag—to enter their camp. The militia members assured the emigrants they were protected and escorted them from the hasty fortification. After walking a distance from the camp, the militiamen, with the help of auxiliary forces hiding nearby, attacked the emigrants and killed all of them that they thought were old enough to be potential witnesses to report the attack. Following the massacre, the perpetrators hastily buried the victims[citation needed], leaving the bodies vulnerable to wild animals and the climate. Local families took in the surviving children, and many of the victims' possessions were sold by auction. Investigations, after interruption by the American Civil War, resulted in nine indictments during 1874. Of the men indicted, only John D. Lee was tried in a court of law. After two trials in the Utah Territory, Lee was convicted by a jury, sentenced to death, and executed by a Utah firing squad on March 23, 1877.

Today, historians attribute the massacre to a combination of factors, including war hysteria about possible invasion of Mormon territory and hyperbolic Mormon teachings against outsiders, which were part of the excesses of the Mormon Reformation period. According to the book Massacre at Mountain Meadows by Glen M. Leonard, Richard E. Turley, Jr., and Ronald Walker, Stake President Isaac Haight (1813 – 1886) was the primary person to push the idea of using force against the emigrants and initially sent to Brigham Young asking for his advice. President Young's letter, which was dated September 10, arrived two days after the slaughter with these instructions, "In regard to emigration trains passing through our settlements, we must not interfere with them... You must not meddle with them... if those who are there will leave, let them go in peace. While we should be on the alert, on hand, and always ready, we should also possess ourselves in patience... always remembering that God rules."

. . . . .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_Massacre

The Mountain Meadows Massacre
Published on Sep 16, 2015
In September of 1857, nearly 140 Arkansas emigrants camped near Enterprise in southwestern Utah. Local residents had heard rumors that the U.S. Army was en route to put down the growing Mormon movement, so the wagon train was viewed with suspicion and animosity. The Fancher-Baker Party was attacked without warning by Indians and later by local Mormon militia. In all, approximately 120 people were killed, mostly women and children. In 1877, 20 years after the mountain meadows massacre, participant John D. Lee was tried, convicted, and executed by a firing squad on the very spot that the Mountain Meadows Massacre took place. This engrossing documentary includes interviews with historians, reenactments, and photographs that tell all sides of the Mountain Meadows Massacre.









41 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Mormon Mountain Meadows Massacre--11 Sept 1857 (Original Post) niyad Sep 2018 OP
I wasn't aware of the massacre PatSeg Sep 2018 #1
a fact I am doing my best to correct. niyad Sep 2018 #2
Thank you niyad. backtoblue Sep 2018 #8
you are most welcome. niyad Sep 2018 #24
I've known about it for years. I don't remember how I first learned of it. I've never been a fan of brewens Sep 2018 #27
I remember researching PatSeg Sep 2018 #29
Let me say this, Wellstone ruled Sep 2018 #3
Did you politely tell them to go fuck themselves? A HERETIC I AM Sep 2018 #20
Sad to say,that was not my nature at the time. Wellstone ruled Sep 2018 #21
We went to a Morman history museum in Salt Lake and I looked for wasupaloopa Sep 2018 #4
sadly, a wise decision on your part. niyad Sep 2018 #5
K&R backtoblue Sep 2018 #6
Interesting. Thanks for posting. nt oasis Sep 2018 #7
you are most welcome. niyad Sep 2018 #25
C.F. McGlashan exposed the cover-up in 1871 Brother Buzz Sep 2018 #9
I visited the site in May (just north of St. George) CanonRay Sep 2018 #10
Americans killing other Americans in battle... the Mormons were ahead of their times Bucky Sep 2018 #11
It was more like a slaughter than a battle JonLP24 Sep 2018 #14
Not a battle at all. Just murder. nt Codeine Sep 2018 #18
When young Mormon missionaries come to my Arkansas door, TomSlick Sep 2018 #12
Most of not all have never heard of it FreeState Sep 2018 #16
There are some dozens who went home from Arkansas having heard about it. TomSlick Sep 2018 #17
it floored me to learn that it "is not faith-affirming" for members to actually LEARN the niyad Sep 2018 #26
Also some families of future political dynasty were there JonLP24 Sep 2018 #13
thank you. I had forgotten about that!! niyad Sep 2018 #22
Thank you for helping expose this dark history. n/t Coventina Sep 2018 #15
you are most welcome. niyad Sep 2018 #23
K&R Hugin Sep 2018 #19
I have visited the memorial for it located not far from St George, Utah. jalan48 Sep 2018 #28
Most damning stories came Wellstone ruled Sep 2018 #30
Thanks for the post, niyad. yonder Sep 2018 #31
you are most welcome. there are, indeed, special places in the West--and so many sad niyad Sep 2018 #32
Book about the massacre. djg21 Sep 2018 #33
thank you for this excellent information. niyad Sep 2018 #34
Doing my family tree shanti Sep 2018 #35
thank you for sharing part of your family with us. the things we learn when we start niyad Sep 2018 #36
you think that is bad look at 37 lol grantcart Sep 2018 #38
And here is, as they say, "the rest of the story" grantcart Sep 2018 #37
good post, gc yonder Sep 2018 #40
Thanks for this! I had never heard about it DFW Sep 2018 #39
you are most welcome. fascinating, indeed, is the stuff we are not taught in schools, but niyad Sep 2018 #41

PatSeg

(47,270 posts)
1. I wasn't aware of the massacre
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 01:31 PM
Sep 2018

until I saw the movie September Dawn a few years ago. I'm sure there are many people who still don't know about it.

brewens

(13,538 posts)
27. I've known about it for years. I don't remember how I first learned of it. I've never been a fan of
Wed Sep 12, 2018, 11:33 AM
Sep 2018

the Mormons, but really not much different than I feel about any organized religion. The Mormons kind of back up my belief that they all started out as some kind of cult. They started out based totally on fraud, but here they are now, a "main stream religion". Hmmm. I wonder if the exact same thing has happened before? Like maybe about 2000 years ago.

One friend of mine, probably my closest white wing gun nut buddy, has a real obsession with the Mormons, but in a perv kind of way. He lived in some heavily Mormon town in Idaho for a few years. He marveled at the beautiful girls, young wives and older men, and was convinced he saw all kinds of swapping and stuff going on! I'd like to get him on video when he's on a roll, it's quite remarkable.

That same guy was at my house going off about Russian immigrants at some town in northern Washington state. That was a few years ago, long before Trumps scandal/s began to be exposed. I've been planning on bringing up Russians the next time I talk to him to see what he says now.

He was telling me all about these Russians the yokles didn't like or trust, "weird stuff" going on. Guys out on the lake in the middle of the night doing who knows what. The usual paranoid crap. I bet now he says, oh, Russians! Great people! Salt of the earth! I wouldn't mind my daughter marrying one!

PatSeg

(47,270 posts)
29. I remember researching
Wed Sep 12, 2018, 12:11 PM
Sep 2018

the origins of the Mormon religion and found out it was started by a known con artist who was looking for justification to sleep with more than one woman. Unlike ancient religions, we have written court documents about Joseph Smith's crimes.

We can look back at that time and understand that perhaps people were less educated and more gullible than they are today, yet the Mormon church has over 16 million members today. So many of the stories are just as ridiculous today as they were then. Looking at so many modern religions, Christianity included, I guess there is never a shortage of willfully ignorant gullible people.

 

Wellstone ruled

(34,661 posts)
3. Let me say this,
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 01:52 PM
Sep 2018

visited the area many times. First the Meadows is about fifteen miles north of St George Utah on Hwy 18. Second,if you do visit the area,your life will change,the silence is only broken by the Eagles and the Hawks,Aerial Acrobatics and Calls to their Young.

Be ready to be confronted by Local Hard Core wondering why you took the time to visit the Monument. Have had times when Locals passing by on the Highway to turn around and stop when they saw our Car in the parking area. Just to question us as to why we were there.

 

Wellstone ruled

(34,661 posts)
21. Sad to say,that was not my nature at the time.
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 10:50 PM
Sep 2018

First,I either knew them personally or had seen them in a Retail Setting. Second,if it was today,my response would be rather lengthy and to the point with Historical Facts dealing with their so called Faith and their Church trying for over a Century to blame the Ute Indians. Btw,this is not their only Massacre Site,another is near Moab or CircleVille.

 

wasupaloopa

(4,516 posts)
4. We went to a Morman history museum in Salt Lake and I looked for
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 02:32 PM
Sep 2018

something on this but didn’t find anything.

Church members were standing around smiling at us and I wanted to ask them about it but thought better of it.

Brother Buzz

(36,379 posts)
9. C.F. McGlashan exposed the cover-up in 1871
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 03:23 PM
Sep 2018
There is no evidence in existence, so far as is known, to incriminate him (Brigham Young) as an accessory before the fact, unless it is connected with his military position. It was claimed all the way through that orders had come from headquarters. He was Commander in Chief of the Utah militia, and it hardly seemed possible that the militia would be detailed to do such sanguinary work without some slight sanction from Salt Lake City. - McGlashan


C. F. McGlashan, a California journalist investigated the massacre in 1871 and discoved a wider cover-up after interviewing many people that actually participated in the Utah militia, but could not uncover any proof Brigham Young had a direct hand in it. The Mormon cover-up and whitewash mostly worked.

CanonRay

(14,084 posts)
10. I visited the site in May (just north of St. George)
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 03:53 PM
Sep 2018

I'd always wanted to see it. There's a nice monument there now, when the Mormon church finally recognized their part in it. There are still graves of people missing and presumed dead somewhere in the meadow. A pretty place, but sad echos.

Bucky

(53,947 posts)
11. Americans killing other Americans in battle... the Mormons were ahead of their times
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 03:59 PM
Sep 2018

four years ahead, apparently

TomSlick

(11,088 posts)
12. When young Mormon missionaries come to my Arkansas door,
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 08:43 PM
Sep 2018

I start talking about the Mountain Meadows Massacre and the murder of Arkansawyers at the orders of Brigham Young as "God's vengeance."

I have yet to meet a young missionary who would admit to having ever heard of it.

FreeState

(10,570 posts)
16. Most of not all have never heard of it
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 09:21 PM
Sep 2018

It’s not ever talked about in “Church”. Even my parents who are nearing 90 didn’t know what it was when I asked.

The “Church” knows how to burry a story among its members. Hell most member don’t even know Joseph Smith’s “first vision” had at least 9 versions, the first recorded years after it supposedly happened.

niyad

(113,066 posts)
26. it floored me to learn that it "is not faith-affirming" for members to actually LEARN the
Wed Sep 12, 2018, 11:15 AM
Sep 2018

history of this cult.

jalan48

(13,842 posts)
28. I have visited the memorial for it located not far from St George, Utah.
Wed Sep 12, 2018, 11:47 AM
Sep 2018

I've read in another book, "The Mountain Meadow Massacre" by Sally Denton, that after the massacre women in Cedar City were seen walking around the streets in fancy dresses taken from some of the victims.

 

Wellstone ruled

(34,661 posts)
30. Most damning stories came
Wed Sep 12, 2018, 12:23 PM
Sep 2018

from the US Army Scribes who were on scene a few days later. And yes,your reference was also confirmed by others in other books.

Protect a Religion and make up a fake story as cover.

yonder

(9,657 posts)
31. Thanks for the post, niyad.
Wed Sep 12, 2018, 12:56 PM
Sep 2018

This Idaho boy, has heard accounts of this over the years. Jon Krakauer might have talked about it in his book "Under the Banner of Heaven". Or maybe it was a Bernard DeVoto/Wallace Stegner book. Dunno.

As post #3 suggests, there are a lot of special places in the American inland west. Southern Utah in general and southwest Utah in particular are at the top of that list, IMO.

About all I can say is Lord Acton had it right in "...absolute power corrupts absolutely".

niyad

(113,066 posts)
32. you are most welcome. there are, indeed, special places in the West--and so many sad
Wed Sep 12, 2018, 01:22 PM
Sep 2018

ones as well.

shanti

(21,675 posts)
35. Doing my family tree
Wed Sep 12, 2018, 02:16 PM
Sep 2018

Last edited Wed Sep 12, 2018, 06:04 PM - Edit history (1)

I found that my maternal first cousins were directly related to one of the men in this massacre, Samuel Jewkes. I saw a picture of the man, and one of my cousins definitely resembles him. My cousins weren't raised Mormon, but their father was a jack Mormon (nonpracticing). There was also polygamy in their family during the 1800's, and some of their ancestors lived in a Mormon compound in Mexico with the Romney family.

It was shocking to find this information.

niyad

(113,066 posts)
36. thank you for sharing part of your family with us. the things we learn when we start
Wed Sep 12, 2018, 02:20 PM
Sep 2018

searching the family tree.

grantcart

(53,061 posts)
37. And here is, as they say, "the rest of the story"
Wed Sep 12, 2018, 03:24 PM
Sep 2018

And here is the rest of the story, why good family oriented Mormons triggered the greatest terrorist assault on mostly women and children until Kevin McVey visited Oklahoma.

The first mayor of Salt Lake City was Jedediah Morgan Grant. My great great great great great grandfather was integrally linked to this mass murder.

Growing up we knew that we were from Mormon royalty. Jedediah’s son is Heber J Grant and after JMG’s passing when Heber was only 9 days old he would be raised by Brigham Young. He would become the 7th President of the Church, the second longest serving President and after Smith and Young the most important President. After the stock market collapse HJG would need to go to NY and renegotiate the mortgages and debt as LDS members were severely affected. In order to gain credibility before he went he issued “The Edict” which detailed that the LDS Church was no longer going to tolerate plural marriage and everyone had to sign a loyalty pledge promising to not just follow the letter of the law but in fact no longer tolerate plural marriage. He excommunicated families that broke the pledge and some fled to Canada. Some fled to Mexico. Mitt Romney’s grand father fled to Mexico.

Growing up I didn’t know any of this except the names and titles of our ancestors, and that is pretty hard to hide. We had a family reunion in Salt Lake City and stopped by to see the stature of JMG.

My father, who was a devout Presbyterian, wouldn’t talk much about it but we know he hate LDS. I remember on a car ride I asked him why and he said there was great evil in the past, murders and mass murders.

I didn’t really learn much about my ancestors until a freak coincidence had me frequently sitting, in junior high school, next to someone who would know a lot about my ancestors, Rick Romney, Mitt’s cousin. He was astonished that I didn’t know anything about them. His grandfather was a moderate Republican who a) marched with Dr. King b) was openly skeptical of the Vietnam War and c) hated Richard Nixon. At 13 I was very interested in him and hoped that he would win the Presidency and stop the war that Johnson had escalated. Rick didn’t know much about his grandfather’s politics and so we engaged in a strange swap of information about each others relatives.

Over the years I have read everything I could about the MMM and while a lot is now known some questions remain.

Before the Massacre

In the mid 1850s the LDS Church was facing 2 existential crises and Brigham Young knew it.

The first was that many settlers moved away from Salt Lake City to homestead in the rough scrabble area away from the Lake that was hard to farm but allowed them to own their own farm. As they grew away from SLC the rural Mormons became lax. They became unenthusiastic members in writing only. They stopped attending Church and stopped visiting Salt Lake City. If this trend was not reversed the LDS Church could not survive.

The second challenge was that in 1848 the California Gold Rush triggered a massive migration to the west of Utah which left Utah surrounded. Young realized that as normal Americans moved closer and closer to Utah, and surrounded it that there would be enormous pressure to halt polygamy and if the LDS would eventually be absorbed by Protestant Christians.

The Mormon Reformation

Young sent JMG through out the rural areas and railed at them with sermons of hell and the loss of their eternal life. He was adept at creating extreme religious fervor and thousands were “rebaptized”

Young said at the time:



According to Young: "The time is coming when justice will be laid to the line and righteousness to the plummet; when we shall take the old broadsword and ask, Are you for God? And if you are not heartily on the Lord's side, you will be hewn down."[5]


. . .


"I know that there are transgressors, who, if they knew themselves and the only condition upon which they can obtain forgiveness, would beg of their brethren to shed their blood, that the smoke might ascend to God as an offering to appease the wrath that is kindled against them, and that the law might have its course."[9]





Creating Terror


Young also had a plan to create a region of terror so that the Americans would not want to get involved in governing Utah but leave it to the Mormons. At the time the entire US Army had about 10,000 in uniform and the Mormon home militia had more than 15,000.

Young’s plan was simple. Have Mormons living along the trail where California settlers were passing dress up like Indians and terrorize them for a few days and let them pass. That would give him leverage to negotiate with the federal government who was pressing to eliminate polygamy. “Leave us alone and we will take care of the Indian terror here” was the idea.

What went wrong

Everything written above is basically non controversial. The settlers dressed up as Indians and surrounded the train of mostly women and children. After a few days they would tell them that they had arranged passage and that if they left without their arms they would be safe and over 100 Mormons escorted these women and children (and a few men) and murdered them one by one. A few young children were taken and raised in Mormon families.

The Mormon Church said that the head of the settlers sent a note to Young who sent back an urgent message to release them but it arrived to late.

Many people, like myself, believe that they received the answer for the simple reason that Young micro managed everything and they wouldn’t take action by themselves, but that is another discussion.

What hasn’t been addressed is the question why non violent people would feel justified to create this mountain of violence. The premise was laid by JMG and the Mormon Reformation but something happened.

There are two links from well sourced accounts that put forth that attacking the emigrants was the original plan. The LDS Church, of course, denies that part of the story. I believe it to be true because I cannot conceive of these settlers taking such an action without believing that Young had ordered it, either explicitly or implicitly.

I believe that this was BY's plan. Create terror so that he could negotiate with the US government for more autonomy.

This is the consensus position in the Wikipedia article



There is a consensus among historians that Brigham Young played a role in provoking the massacre, at least unwittingly, and in concealing its evidence after the fact; however, they debate whether Young knew about the planned massacre ahead of time and whether he initially condoned it before later taking a strong public stand against it. Young's use of inflammatory and violent language[72] in response to the Federal expedition added to the tense atmosphere at the time of the attack. Following the massacre, Young stated in public forums that God had taken vengeance on the Baker–Fancher party.[73] It is unclear whether Young held this view because he believed that this specific group posed an actual threat to colonists or because he believed that the group was directly responsible for past crimes against Mormons.



One way or another Brigham Young bears responsibility for the Massacre. That his name is still on a University and other buildings demanding respect. They should remove his name. They should also take down my Great great etc grandfather's statute in front of city hall. He died before the massacre but he contributed to the hysteria which underlined the murderous intent.




http://www.historynaked.com/mountain-meadows-massacre/

http://salon.glenrose.net/default.asp?view=plink&id=14429

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_Reformation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedediah_M._Grant

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heber_J._Grant


There is an alternate theory that Young wanted to take revenge because they were from Arkansas and Romney's ancestor Pratt, a close friend of Young's (one of Pratt's wives may have been shared with Joseph Smith) was arrested and eventually murdered after he had arranged a "plural marriage" with a married woman.

Her husband, Hector, an alcoholic wife beater, tracked down Pratt and his wife and had them arrested in OK. When he was released Hector murdered Pratt. Mormons celebrated Pratt as a 'martyr'.

The theory here is that extra revenge was taken on this wagon train because Pratt was murdered just 4 months before the wagon train was attacked and the wagon train, like Pratt, was from Arkansas.

The story of Pratt is here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parley_P._Pratt

DFW

(54,295 posts)
39. Thanks for this! I had never heard about it
Wed Sep 12, 2018, 04:22 PM
Sep 2018

Absolutely FASCINATING stuff! This is some European-American history that we SHOULD all be learning about, and never do because it is politically touchy. Denying it is equivalent to Germans not learning about the Third Reich in school (the West always did make sure their school children learned about it; the East denied any remnants were on their soil, even as their soldiers wore similar uniforms, did the goose step, and confiscated newspapers from any westerner who entered their territory).

What a relief to have a fresh, informative thread that is NOT fawning about the latest burp from Bernie Sanders after he had a second cup of coffee for breakfast.

niyad

(113,066 posts)
41. you are most welcome. fascinating, indeed, is the stuff we are not taught in schools, but
Fri Sep 14, 2018, 12:09 PM
Sep 2018

must learn on our own.

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