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Mon Jul 30, 2018, 06:35 PM

 

Some who had tired of centrist appropriation

of progressive popularity suggested I make this an OP. Someone posted a poll revealing Obama's political approach to be more favored than the Sanders political approach. Almost immediately it was seized upon as proof of the popularity of establishment politics. Recalling not just 2008, but knowing Obama's 2012-2016 presidency to be a near wholesale rejection of incrementalism, I had to respond (edited slightly):

[What this poll actually asks is] more like [Do you prefer politicians like] the greatest president of our times and a transformative figure in American history or . . . (Insert any name you wish)?

Easy question. It's Obama every time. Now ask the same question but substitute McCaskill, Harris, Biden, or even candidates who are no longer running for office for "Sanders."

[This is] Followed by [the expected dose of] spin trying to portray Barrack as a moderate, establishment Democrat. Obama ran AGAINST a moderate Democrat AND the party establishment in the 2008 primary and beat them into submission. He ran as a progressive agent of change in the 2008 general election.

He compromised toward moderation from 2008-12 because disloyal blue dogs wouldn't get behind the policies he ran on and the Republican caucus had no such loyalty issues when it came to opposing him.

Moderates abandoned him anyway in 2010 and got their heads handed to them and Congress handed to Republicans. The moderates blamed Obama. In 2012, he won a clear majority, not merely a plurality, of the popular vote because the people still believed in him and the people in my community turned out like never before.

From 2012 through 2016, he used the power of the unitary executive to take radically progressive measures that to this day wouldn't get 100% support from our caucus.

Watching the establishment try to appropriate his legacy borders on hilarious, or disgusting.


70 replies, 3647 views

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Arrow 70 replies Author Time Post
Reply Some who had tired of centrist appropriation (Original post)
GaryCnf Jul 2018 OP
saidsimplesimon Jul 2018 #1
Hortensis Jul 2018 #2
GaryCnf Jul 2018 #3
GulfCoast66 Jul 2018 #54
GaryCnf Jul 2018 #57
Hortensis Jul 2018 #59
GulfCoast66 Jul 2018 #64
Hortensis Aug 2018 #65
LuvLoogie Jul 2018 #4
Eko Jul 2018 #5
GaryCnf Jul 2018 #8
Eko Jul 2018 #9
Eko Jul 2018 #10
Eko Jul 2018 #13
Eko Jul 2018 #6
GaryCnf Jul 2018 #15
Eko Jul 2018 #16
Eko Jul 2018 #17
GaryCnf Jul 2018 #25
Eko Jul 2018 #26
GaryCnf Jul 2018 #31
Eko Jul 2018 #32
Eko Jul 2018 #28
Eko Jul 2018 #30
GaryCnf Jul 2018 #38
Eko Jul 2018 #39
Eko Jul 2018 #41
GaryCnf Jul 2018 #44
Eko Jul 2018 #46
GaryCnf Jul 2018 #47
Eko Jul 2018 #49
GaryCnf Aug 2018 #70
lapucelle Jul 2018 #7
GaryCnf Jul 2018 #11
lapucelle Jul 2018 #33
GaryCnf Jul 2018 #37
lapucelle Jul 2018 #50
GaryCnf Jul 2018 #51
jpak Jul 2018 #12
GaryCnf Jul 2018 #18
jpak Jul 2018 #21
GaryCnf Jul 2018 #34
jpak Jul 2018 #36
Eko Jul 2018 #43
Oneironaut Jul 2018 #53
lapucelle Jul 2018 #14
GaryCnf Jul 2018 #19
jpak Jul 2018 #22
lapucelle Jul 2018 #35
GaryCnf Jul 2018 #40
Eko Jul 2018 #45
GaryCnf Jul 2018 #48
lapucelle Jul 2018 #62
lapucelle Jul 2018 #52
jpak Jul 2018 #23
DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2018 #20
GaryCnf Jul 2018 #27
markses66 Jul 2018 #24
JoeOtterbein Jul 2018 #29
Squinch Jul 2018 #42
SidDithers Jul 2018 #55
Garrett78 Jul 2018 #56
GaryCnf Jul 2018 #58
Garrett78 Jul 2018 #63
betsuni Jul 2018 #60
GaryCnf Jul 2018 #61
muriel_volestrangler Aug 2018 #66
GaryCnf Aug 2018 #67
muriel_volestrangler Aug 2018 #68
GaryCnf Aug 2018 #69

Response to GaryCnf (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 06:50 PM

1. Bravo, Gary

Excellent summary, well written and of course, I agree with your thoughts 100%

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Response to GaryCnf (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 06:53 PM

2. What nonsense. Liberals have been progressive

in this nation since long before our founding fathers wrote liberal, progressive principles into the Declaration of Independence and won most of the battle for what form our government would take by writing them into the constitution, especially including the Bill of Rights.

But liberal progressives don't just dominate the Democratic Party, the party also includes the small faction of dissident progressives who are now styling themselves as democratic socialists AND some conservative progressives.

What? progressive conservatives some say incredulously? Yes, just for instance, both Teddy Roosevelt and Dwight Eisenhower were progressive conservatives and proud of it. Less admirably, many trumpster populists (and some Sanders populists for that matter) are progressive social conservatives. The trumpsters may be too stupid and ignorant to be aware or proud of it, but they do know they want to keep their government programs ("keep your government hands off my Social Security" ).

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #2)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 07:16 PM

3. So you think we have

 

liberal progressive principles written into the Constitution?

Well, I guess if your idea of progress is not having a fucking king and perpetuating slavery (and giving extra political power to slaveholders), you'd be right.

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Response to GaryCnf (Reply #3)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 09:52 PM

54. Myopia is bad in vision and history

Yep, there was some bad shit in the constitution. Like slavery and males only voting. The kind of shit that was common all over the world at the time.

But freedom of Speech, Press and Religion all written down for all to see was pretty ground fucking breaking. Do you think for a minute that Europe would have the values they have without our example? Hell no! Our example caused revolution in Europe.

You and I probably agree the our situation now is a sad state of affairs.

But to deny that our Constitution and Bill of Rights was not liberal and Progressive at the time is to deny history and the obvious.

Being proud of America is not a conservative trait. I would argue that being proud of the true meaning and potential of America is a very liberal idea.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #54)

Tue Jul 31, 2018, 03:47 AM

57. Best reply on here n/t

 

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #54)

Tue Jul 31, 2018, 07:14 AM

59. "being proud of the true meaning and potential of America

is a very liberal idea."

Yes!

And being knowledgeable about the enormous, ongoing role of progressivism in our democratic republic of course makes one very proud of what we're a huge part of.


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Response to Hortensis (Reply #59)

Tue Jul 31, 2018, 07:41 PM

64. I am tired of the Democratic Party ceding the patriotic ground to republicans

Being for tax cuts for the rich and an ever increasing military used to introviene all over the world is the opposite of a true American Patriot.

Building a more perfect Union is the true goal of an American patriot. And 3rd world post-partum death rates, people living in cars and on the street and retirement being an unattainable dream for most Americans is not building a more perfect union.

Oh, and need I mention backsliding on the commitments we made with the civil rights act?

We need to hammer this home and reclaim the mantle we actually own of American Patriots!

And if a ‘centrist democrat’ like me feels this way we should be able to come together and reclaim the true vision our founders had for this nation. They knew we had big problems but had confidence they would be overcome.

If I we running the show that would be my mantra. Building a More Perfect Union.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #64)

Wed Aug 1, 2018, 12:53 AM

65. With you in always striving for a more perfect union,

but we've never ceded patriotism. Don't let all the angry noise and smoke and mirrors hide that reality.

Antigovernment conservatives and oppositional left wingers resent and deny the morality and achievements, because they are not theirs, of America's progressive patriots. We are mostly liberal but also definitely include a share of conservatives it could never have happened without.

The more the deniers benefit from progress and the wellbeing created by progressive policies, the more they want to claim them as their own. Unfortunately, like Trump, both types live in an imaginary zero sum-game world where admitting others had even some part in it (!) would diminish them. So they deny and attack. Very noisily and aggressively.

Meanwhile, earnest people continue their commitment to, as you say, working for a more perfect union. Always, including as now when it means first having to fight our way out of holes others have dragged us all into. Not the first time and won't be the last for that.

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Response to GaryCnf (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 07:18 PM

4. Political appropriation? LOL... Bernie invented progressive taxation

to pay for government programs. What a groundbreaking idea!

Do the math, and get the votes, "progressives." The ARRA and the ACA passed because they did the math and got the votes.

Has Our Revolution started touting the Koch analysis of Medicare for all? It looks to me like the Koch are about to fund OR bigly.

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Response to GaryCnf (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 07:29 PM

5. Lost me 100%

when you used the term "establishment". Good grief.

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Response to Eko (Reply #5)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 07:42 PM

8. It's not a dirty word

 

If you like mainstream Democratic politics, be proud and defend it. Just quit putting your arm around progressives like Obama and claiming he's one of you. Because he's not.

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Response to GaryCnf (Reply #8)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 07:44 PM

9. Yes, I like Democrats.

All of them, do you? I do notice you changed your words from "establishment" to mainstream, very telling.

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Response to GaryCnf (Reply #8)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 07:47 PM

10. What about this?

“We’ve got to also recognize that, in a democracy like this, it’s not going to happen overnight. We have to make incremental changes where we can, and everyone once in a while you’ll get a breakthrough and make the kind of big changes that are necessary. That consensus building is important because that’s historically how change has happened in America. Those are the kinds of things that I’ll be talking about at the commencement.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2016/05/12/obama-to-bernie-supporters-dont-let-disillusionment-set-in/?utm_term=.09dce837b64c

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Response to GaryCnf (Reply #8)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 07:51 PM

13. And this?

“Sometimes your job is just to make stuff work,” Obama said. “Sometimes the task of government is to make incremental improvements or try to steer the ocean liner two degrees north or south so that, ten years from now, suddenly we’re in a very different place than we were. At the moment, people may feel like we need a fifty-degree turn; we don’t need a two-degree turn. And you say, ‘Well, if I turn fifty degrees, the whole ship turns’ ”
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/05/23/president-obama-speaks-his-mind

What you are saying is just not true.

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Response to GaryCnf (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 07:38 PM

6. I wonder who said this.

"So those who traffic in absolutes when it comes to policy, whether it's on the left or the right, they make democracy unworkable. You can't expect to get 100 percent of what you want all the time; sometimes, you have to compromise. That doesn't mean abandoning your principles, but instead it means holding on to those principles and then having the confidence that they're going to stand up to a serious democratic debate. That's how America's Founders intended our system to work – that through the testing of ideas and the application of reason and proof it would be possible to arrive at a basis for common ground."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/president-obama-full-speech-south-africa/

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Response to Eko (Reply #6)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 07:53 PM

15. I'll bet it's someone

 

Who ran and lived on principles but one who was well aware that leadership requires compromise because not everyone does.

I mentioned someone like that above.

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Response to GaryCnf (Reply #15)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 07:54 PM

16. Well now, it doesnt seem to go well with this thought.

"but knowing Obama's 2012-2016 presidency to be a near wholesale rejection of incrementalism,"

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Response to GaryCnf (Reply #15)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 07:56 PM

17. If anything, it seem President Obama's own words

seem to be the exact opposite of what you are saying.

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Response to Eko (Reply #17)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:09 PM

25. It's EXACTLY what I am saying

 

He ran as a progressive agent of change and governed brilliantly in the face of the fact that not even everyone in his party would support him.

Do we need to go through what happened to single payer? Do we need to go through why the Iran nuclear deal was dead on arrival even in our own caucus? Do we need to go through how he had to use the power/discretion of attorney general's office to get Obergfell and mitigate the impact of three decades of "we're tough on crime too" pandering?

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Response to GaryCnf (Reply #25)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:11 PM

26. So you say this

"knowing Obama's 2012-2016 presidency to be a near wholesale rejection of incrementalism," and President Obama says the opposite and its exactly what you are saying. lol.

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Response to Eko (Reply #26)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:25 PM

31. Limiting yourself to only Obama's second term

 

Give me 5 examples of incrementalism.

His first term, notwithstanding naive sniping from the left (YES, I have zero problem saying it), was the politics of compromise at its best. From 2012 forward, after the "brilliant" strategy of running moderates stripped us of both houses on Congress, he enacted the massive changes I described above solely by the power of the office and the force of his will.

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Response to GaryCnf (Reply #31)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:26 PM

32. Prety sure I showed you lots before he became president

where he didnt support single payer. So,,,,

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Response to GaryCnf (Reply #25)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:20 PM

28. Is this fake?

In 2006, I spent a day with Obama in the U.S. Senate, and he said he supports a “debate” on single-payer, but that he also bad started to have his doubts, now that he was in the Senate:

I asked him to give me some specific examples of what he meant. Is a proposal to convert America’s healthcare system to one in which the government is the single payer for all services revolutionary or reformist? “Anything that Canada does can’t be entirely revolutionary-it’s Canada,” Obama joked. “When I drive through Toronto, it doesn’t look like a bunch of Maoists.” Even so, Obama said that although he “would not shy away from a debate about single-payer,” right now he is “not convinced that it is the best way to achieve universal healthcare.”

By last week, it became clear that Obama and his allies in Congress will use their legislative leverage to prevent even a debate about single payer. Here’s the Associated Press: “Baucus and many others, including President Barack Obama, say single-payer is not practical or politically feasible.”
https://www.healthcare-now.org/blog/obama-for-single-payer-before-he-was-against-it/

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Response to GaryCnf (Reply #25)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:22 PM

30. Or this?


In February 2004, about a month before the primary election in the U.S. Senate race, the Associated Press reported the stance of all the candidates on universal health care. "Obama says he supports the idea of universal health care but does not think a single-payer government system is feasible. He says the government should be the health care provider of last resort for the uninsured." In a rundown of all the candidates' positions, the Associated Press summarized Obama's position as "Support, but 'probably not at this stage,' a single-payer government system."
In his book The Audacity of Hope , published in October 2006 when he was a U.S. senator, Obama described single-payer as the hope of the left, while those on the right wanted a market-based approach. "It's time we broke this impasse by acknowledging a few simple truths," Obama wrote, suggesting a system much like the one he supports today.
In April 2007, a few months after he declared his candidacy for presidency, the Chicago Tribune reported, "Obama has pledged that, if elected, all Americans would have health-care coverage by the end of his first term. He has said he is reluctant to switch to a 'single-payer' national health insurance system because of the difficulty in making a quick transition from the employer-based private system."
At his town halls as president, he routinely answers questions about single-payer by saying he would favor it if he were starting a system "from scratch." But he consistently adds that's not the goal of the current reform. "For us to transition completely from an employer-based system of private insurance to a single-payer system could be hugely disruptive, and my attitude has been that we should be able to find a way to create a uniquely American solution to this problem that controls costs but preserves the innovation that is introduced in part with a free-market system," Obama said in Annandale, Va., on July 1, 2009.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jul/16/barack-obama/obama-statements-single-payer-have-changed-bit/

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Response to Eko (Reply #30)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:41 PM

38. None of these are fake

 

They are a brilliant man accomplishing everything he could through the legislative process.

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Response to GaryCnf (Reply #38)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:43 PM

39. Prior to becoming president.

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Response to GaryCnf (Reply #38)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:48 PM

41. I just dont remember abandoning single payer in favor of the ACA being the progressive

thing at all. Especially as he did it before he was president.

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Response to Eko (Reply #41)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:51 PM

44. Okay now I feel stupid

 

and somewhat caught up in throwing out buzzwords instead of thinking before I type.

Let's try again . . . public option

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Response to GaryCnf (Reply #44)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 09:00 PM

46. Nope, I dont play the game

when someone moves the goalposts. Its possible that you mean well and your exuberance has caused you to over reach. That would be ok. If so we all want the same things but disagree on when it will be possible and what will happen if we over reach. Rule 1 in this world, dont attack your allies, rule 2, listen more than you talk. Rule 3, it's ok to be wrong.

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Response to Eko (Reply #46)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 09:08 PM

47. I don't blame you

 

I probably wouldn't either. Regardless though I won't defend something I said that was just wrong. No, Obama did not support single payer. You are right.

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Response to GaryCnf (Reply #47)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 09:19 PM

49. Was he progressive?

Compared to Regan he was, to Sanders no. There is a reason we all became Americans, it was to unite us. There is a reason also we are all Democrats, to unite us as well. I am a Conservative Democrat, I am a Mainstream Democrat, I am a Progressive Democrat, I am a Democrat. I am not and will never be an Establishment Democrat, none of us are. Those are the words our foes use and I will not accept them ever. Please do not use them again and thanks.
Eko.

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Response to Eko (Reply #49)

Wed Aug 1, 2018, 07:41 AM

70. I will work on the term

 

I agree that we need to be one as a party.

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Response to GaryCnf (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 07:38 PM

7. You misstated the poll question and assumed facts not in evidence.

The question asked:

Do you wish the Democratic candidates who run for Congress this year will be more like Barack Obama or more like Bernie Sanders?

Your interpretation of "what the poll actually [sic] asks" is nothing more than a personal opinion. While it may be true that some people agree with your perspective, there is no evidence that any of the respondents fall into your particular subset or agree with your reading of the question.

The only conclusion that can be logically reached based on this questions is that the majority of respondents preferred Obama-like congressional candidates to Sanders-like congressional candidates for some reason.

If pollsters are interested in discovering the reason or reasons why, they needed to ask follow-up questions.

Consumers of poll information need to employ caution when looking at data and especially avoid reaching conclusions as to reasons and motives for responses when there is no evidence to support such claims.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #7)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 07:47 PM

11. We don't disagree

 

The ones who disagree are those who replied to the earlier OP by holding it up as a rejection of progressives.

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Response to GaryCnf (Reply #11)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:30 PM

33. We don't know the reason why Obama-like congressional candidates were preferred.

It could have been a function of any number of factors, including a reaction to Democratic Socialist congressional candidates who had been in the news a lot mid to late July due to primary campaigning.

If you look at the breakdown of the data demographically, (race, region, age, income level, party affiliation, ideological identification)

Sanders-like candidates tie with Obama-like candidates with Independents and whites. Sanders-like candidates are preferred by the following groups: "other" (races), Republicans, those who voted for Trump in 2016, and conservatives.

Obama-like candidates are preferred in every other category.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #33)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:38 PM

37. Once again

 

You could not be more correct.

I'm not saying (shorthand) "Obama is popular because he is progressive." I'm saying this poll (which as you correctly observe tells us nothing more than the breakdown of the percentage of how people answered the question) doesn't prove what it was offered for.

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Response to GaryCnf (Reply #37)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 09:19 PM

50. You're trying to refute a claim that you are characterizing

as a "centrist appropriation of progressive popularity" in the service bolstering "establishment politics". I have no idea what the post actually said and therefore have no idea whether your characterization is fair or accurate.

President Obama is a liberal Democrat. Why anyone would think that Democrats are "centrists appropriating a progressive" when they express admiration for fellow Democrat Barack Obama is bewildering at best.

Finally, I'm not sure that you are correct in saying, "[Barack Obama's] presidency was a near wholesale rejection of incrementalism. One of his favorite quotes was,

"Do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good."


https://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2010/12/07/131881526/obama-s-message-boiled-down-people-over-politics

http://www.madkane.com/madness/2010/02/18/obama-excuses-voltaire/

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2013/01/16/remarks-president-and-vice-president-gun-violence

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #50)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 09:27 PM

51. I won't argue about that either

 

But what he did between 2012 and 2016 was not incrementalism and it was far better than good.

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Response to GaryCnf (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 07:49 PM

12. Why does the phrase "GRU Bot" come to mind?

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Response to jpak (Reply #12)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 07:56 PM

18. Why does the phrase

 

"Can't discuss facts so goes with the slurs" come to mind.

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Response to GaryCnf (Reply #18)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:01 PM

21. Because I see this kind of shit in US newspaper comment sections every day.

yup

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Response to jpak (Reply #21)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:30 PM

34. Or

 

Because you can't argue facts

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Response to GaryCnf (Reply #34)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:34 PM

36. You posted a divisive thread and fill it with bullshit

GRU

MO

Yup

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Response to jpak (Reply #36)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:50 PM

43. Yup.

Nailed it jpak.

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Response to jpak (Reply #12)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 09:36 PM

53. A pet peeve of mine is the constant misuse of the word, "Bot."

It's often used as a synonym of "Troll" or "Shill," which is annoyingly incorrect. A bot is a program that does an automated process that a person would normally do, such as posting messages on Twitter, or (sadly) hacking people. A bot is not a human poster - that would be a troll.

Calling someone a "bot" would be nonsensical. It would be like accusing someone of being a computer virus. It's an inanimate thing.

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Response to GaryCnf (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 07:52 PM

14. The three 2008 Democratic candidates.





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Response to lapucelle (Reply #14)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 07:58 PM

19. Nice chart

 

Wonder why my guy stood out?

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Response to GaryCnf (Reply #19)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:04 PM

22. In the Kremlin

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Response to GaryCnf (Reply #19)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:31 PM

35. I don't know who "your guy" is. N/T

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #35)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:47 PM

40. Let me clarify

 

Barrack Obama is not only the greatest president of our, or any, time. He is a transformational figure in American history who transcended politics as we know it.

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Response to GaryCnf (Reply #40)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:51 PM

45. Transcended politics?

Pretty sure even he would laugh at that.

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Response to Eko (Reply #45)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 09:17 PM

48. Maybe

 

Don't minimize what happened over the course of the 2008 primary, but I get your point. A little too much hyperbole.

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Response to GaryCnf (Reply #48)

Tue Jul 31, 2018, 08:09 AM

62. While the Obama message transcended politics, the candidate himself

played the game with expertise and finesse when it came to winning the nomination. None of us who worked the 2008 primary campaigns or attended the DNC RBC meeting in May 2008 will ever forget that race for the ages.

And in the end, Barack Obama beat a worthy opponent by only 42,000 to 152,000 votes (0.1% to 0.4%, depending on the tabulation) out of 17,500,000 - 17, 900,000 primary votes cast.

Both BO and HRC were liberal Democrats, so I think it's mistaken to characterize this as a race between a moderate and a progressive. Similarly, the claim that Obama "beat the establishment into submission" is not borne out by the facts. He worked with and within the party to secure and then win the nomination.

Neither candidate could have won in a contested convention on pledged delegates alone, but as the race tightened (beginning before the Iowa caucus) super delegate support began and continued to widen in Obama's favor, until, as the primaries began to wind down, the supers were firmly in Obama's corner.

After HRC and BO each won one of the final two June 3 primaries (with a final total of 97 pledged delegates separating the two candidates) a concession came quickly and enthusiastically in the interest of Democrats winning the 2008 general election.

Whether "Barrack Obama is ... the greatest president of our, or any, time." is debatable, but this type of assessment is highly personal, and everyone is entitled to hold his or her own opinion.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries,_2008

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Response to GaryCnf (Reply #40)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 09:34 PM

52. Then "your guy" is there.

"Your guy" ran against a populist-leaning liberal (John Edwards) and a fellow "hard core liberal" (HRC) in 2008

Once again, here are the three Democratic candidates from the 2008 race (HRC, Barack Obama, and John Edwards) in the order of their charts:





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Response to lapucelle (Reply #14)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:06 PM

23. Link?

n/t

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Response to GaryCnf (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:01 PM

20. "It doesn't matter if a cat is black or white; as long as it catches mice, it's a good cat."

/thread

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #20)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:13 PM

27. Truth

 

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Response to GaryCnf (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:07 PM

24. Some of y'all gonna be arguing nonsense as the Trumpies march you to the shooting pits

 

What a colossal waste of time and energy.

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Response to GaryCnf (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:20 PM

29. Great Point!

Thanks!

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Response to GaryCnf (Original post)


Response to GaryCnf (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 10:22 PM

55. ...



Sid

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Response to GaryCnf (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 11:02 PM

56. In terms of policy positions, there was almost no difference between Obama and Clinton.

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Response to Garrett78 (Reply #56)

Tue Jul 31, 2018, 03:57 AM

58. Do you remember the 2008 primaries?

 

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Response to GaryCnf (Reply #58)

Tue Jul 31, 2018, 02:47 PM

63. Yes. Obama won for reasons other than policy differences.

Following 8 horrific Bush years, Obama had the advantage of being new. He wasn't associated with a previous era the way Hillary was. And he is more charismatic than Hillary. His style and approach differs. But in terms of policy, there was virtually no daylight between them.

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Response to GaryCnf (Original post)

Tue Jul 31, 2018, 07:51 AM

60. But wait. I thought Obama was "establishment."

Now he isn't? I thought he was, like, totally moderate and too nice and giving in all the time trying to be bipartisan.

This sentence is fabulous, I have no idea what it means: "Some who had tired of centrist appropriation of progressive popularity suggested I make this an OP." Centrist appropriation of progressive popularity.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #60)

Tue Jul 31, 2018, 07:57 AM

61. See what happens when you

 

deal in caricatures?

Not that I displayed much better in starting this. Good thing out in the real world we are working together.

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Response to GaryCnf (Original post)

Wed Aug 1, 2018, 04:21 AM

66. What was it from 2012-16 that were "radically progressive measures"?

I'm not knocking Obama's presidency; I think it went well. But I've never seen it as "radical", and I'd say the biggest change was in healthcare, which was before 2012.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #66)

Wed Aug 1, 2018, 06:43 AM

67. Healthcare was indeed before 2012

 

and was actually an example of compromise with the disloyal congressional caucuses we saddled him with.

I was speaking more about those actions he took through executive action. The Solicitor's General action and inaction in the DOMA case and in Obergfell was essential to their outcome and resulted in changes that would have never happened even if we controlled Congress. The same is true for two monumental federal sentencing cases and two more capital sentencing cases where people like me who practice in the field noticed almost immediately the Government's almost tepid opposition. None of those changes would have passed even with a Congressional majority because post-92 we have run away from criminal justice reform, except to reform it in a way that hurts people of color. Both his national monument expansion and the enforcement of the EPA and the Clean Water Act would have been called constitutional "takings" by members of our caucus (and might actually have been) and would never had passed. Also, the Iran nuclear deal would never have even seen the light of day even if we controlled Congress.

I think a lot of economic leftists, and I am to the left of almost all of them, see things like monetary policy and economic regulation and start buying the "No Drama Obama" line, but the list I just gave, which is far from complete, shows that post-2012, when the only power he had was the power he held in his own hands, he moved us forward at a much greater pace than the middle would have even considered.

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Response to GaryCnf (Reply #67)

Wed Aug 1, 2018, 07:16 AM

68. I don't see the DOMA or Obergefell actions and inactions as 'radical'

As he said himself, he "evolved" on the subject. The country did at the same time. Enforcing acts hardly seems 'radical', just good governance (and I can't see how enforcing an existing act could be unconstitutional). And the Iran deal, made in conjunction with the UK, France, Germany, Russia and China, was not "radically progressive", just sensible foreign policy. The only left wing government among them was Hollande's.

I'm not sure what the sentencing cases were, but I'd say that since they're not well known, they don't help much in showing any 'radical' tendency in Obama to be significant.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #68)

Wed Aug 1, 2018, 07:33 AM

69. To be on the progressive side of our EU brethren

 

on social issues may be a tad much to ask in order to declare someone radical in the context of American politics. In any event, those actions were to the left of our caucus and i think but am not sure, actually contrary to our platform in 2008. Recall that DOMA became law under a Democratic president.

Along those same lines, the Justice Department's position on those cases was at least tacitly opposed to legislation passed and promoted during that same period. Moreover, while it may have had little impact in middle America, it had a huge impact for thousands upon thousands of young black men sitting in federal prison so we could show we were tough on crime.

I respect your position, but I have to disagree.

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