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Mon Jul 30, 2018, 06:38 AM

Russia IS NOT MEDDLING - They Are ATTACKING Western Democracies - These Are Acts of WAR

The US, UK, the Netherlands, Italy, France and Germany have all been targets of Russia's attacks in the last few years. Why are these attacks not being discussed as acts of war?

This is not meddling! Russia is actively attacking the very fundamentals of western democracies.

The West needs to acknowledge this fact and start fighting back!

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Reply Russia IS NOT MEDDLING - They Are ATTACKING Western Democracies - These Are Acts of WAR (Original post)
Vinnie From Indy Jul 2018 OP
Achilleaze Jul 2018 #1
PoliticAverse Jul 2018 #2
Squinch Jul 2018 #4
uponit7771 Jul 2018 #9
Fred Sanders Jul 2018 #13
radical noodle Jul 2018 #17
sfwriter Jul 2018 #35
Vinnie From Indy Jul 2018 #43
Squinch Jul 2018 #3
cutroot Jul 2018 #5
braddy Jul 2018 #6
ProfessorPlum Jul 2018 #21
braddy Jul 2018 #23
ProfessorPlum Jul 2018 #25
braddy Jul 2018 #27
ProfessorPlum Jul 2018 #31
braddy Jul 2018 #38
Vinnie From Indy Jul 2018 #26
braddy Jul 2018 #28
Vinnie From Indy Jul 2018 #34
braddy Jul 2018 #39
Vinnie From Indy Jul 2018 #40
braddy Jul 2018 #41
Vinnie From Indy Jul 2018 #42
Johnny2X2X Jul 2018 #7
uponit7771 Jul 2018 #8
SeloverB Jul 2018 #10
woundedkarma Jul 2018 #20
c-rational Jul 2018 #29
Nevernose Jul 2018 #46
sfwriter Jul 2018 #32
malaise Jul 2018 #11
certainot Jul 2018 #15
malaise Jul 2018 #16
certainot Jul 2018 #12
Firestorm49 Jul 2018 #14
njhoneybadger Jul 2018 #18
Fred Sanders Jul 2018 #19
Roy Rolling Jul 2018 #22
Fritz Walter Jul 2018 #24
karin_sj Jul 2018 #30
elmac Jul 2018 #33
marieo1 Jul 2018 #36
Initech Jul 2018 #37
Roland99 Jul 2018 #44
Amaryllis Jul 2018 #45
bluestarone Jul 2018 #47
populistdriven Jul 2018 #48
Orsino Jul 2018 #49

Response to Vinnie From Indy (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 06:56 AM

1. republicans have already surrendered submisively

under the misleadership of their republican Draft-Dodger-in-Chief, Comrade Dirty Donny.

Cowardly. Treasonous. A wholesale betrayal of America.

House GOP refuses to renew election security funding

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/house-gop-refuses-to-renew-election-security-funding-as-democrats-fume-over-russian-meddling/2018/07/18/20761f88-8abb-11e8-8aea-86e88ae760d8_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.ce13c2b62e52

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Response to Vinnie From Indy (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 07:23 AM

2. Are you calling for a Congressional declaration of war against Russia? n/t

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Response to PoliticAverse (Reply #2)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 07:28 AM

4. Why would you ask that?

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Response to PoliticAverse (Reply #2)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:19 AM

9. No just adequate defenses

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Response to PoliticAverse (Reply #2)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:37 AM

13. Just calling for the attack to be called an ATTACK, no pussyfooting around with "meddling",

and let public opinion, now unleashed from the mewing, roar.

I agree, one step at a time. The media does not let go of its in-House labelling easily.

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Response to Fred Sanders (Reply #13)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:53 AM

17. Absolutely!

This is not just a prank. Putin means business and is trying to get his foot in everyone's door.

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Response to PoliticAverse (Reply #2)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 09:44 AM

35. No, the scale of the attacks warrants a NATO reaction, not just a congressional one.

I think a limited increased mobilization at the borders of Nato, perhaps more in the Baltics, hardening of cyber defenses, expelling a few Russians, closing some conciliates, and conterstriking with sanctions / cyber attacks of our own.

They attacked and CONTINUE TO ATTACK several countries. We have already done some of the above.

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Response to sfwriter (Reply #35)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 02:34 PM

43. This should be a NATO matter!

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Response to Vinnie From Indy (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 07:27 AM

3. Yes. The watered down terminology makes me crazy.

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Response to Vinnie From Indy (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 07:37 AM

5. And their major weapon is large amounts of stolen cash

republicans are helpless against this.

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Response to Vinnie From Indy (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:15 AM

6. Your war with Russia could well end life on earth.

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Response to braddy (Reply #6)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 09:08 AM

21. way to wave the white flag

I'll refrain from calling you a surrender monkey

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #21)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 09:12 AM

23. Please do refrain, I spent years in NATO and think you are hasty for a war that could

end us and Europe and even life on earth.

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Response to braddy (Reply #23)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 09:16 AM

25. I don't think either the OP or I are calling to start dropping nukes

but rather to treat the cyber attacks on this country with the seriousness and breadth of response that are required to prevent it from happening again.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #25)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 09:19 AM

27. Then don't try to formally declare it "war".

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Response to braddy (Reply #27)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 09:35 AM

31. I'll try to find the post where I said

we should formally declare it a "war" which hasn't been done in this country since 1941.

If you are afraid of a formal declaration from Congress, I think you can sleep well at night.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #31)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 10:58 AM

38. Read the OP that I was responding to.

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Response to braddy (Reply #23)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 09:17 AM

26. Do you believe that the only way to wage war on a country is bullets and bombs?

Russia's actions are not meddling and they are certainly not meddling when they are acting against almost every Western European democracy.

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Response to Vinnie From Indy (Reply #26)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 09:24 AM

28. War is fought with bullets and bombs, there are words and descriptions and hostile or aggressive

activities short of "War", especially when we are speaking of Russia.

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Response to braddy (Reply #28)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 09:42 AM

34. Would you consider it an act of war if the Russians shut down a few power grids in the USA?

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Response to Vinnie From Indy (Reply #34)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 11:00 AM

39. So far we haven't reached the stage of your war with Russia.

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Response to braddy (Reply #39)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 11:15 AM

40. The question remains.

Would you consider that an act of war?

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Response to Vinnie From Indy (Reply #40)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 11:40 AM

41. Start a thread on your new topic and maybe I'll post on it.

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Response to braddy (Reply #41)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 12:19 PM

42. No, thank you!

I would prefer a simple answer to a simple question. I don't blame you for not answering though. I think you realized your position was untenable.

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Response to Vinnie From Indy (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:16 AM

7. Yes

This needs to be the narrative, we are being attacked and Trump refuses to defend America.

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Response to Vinnie From Indy (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:18 AM

8. K&R, meddling is minimizing what Russia is doing

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Response to Vinnie From Indy (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:23 AM

10. WE have a long history of meddling in foreign elections

 

and we'd rather not discuss that. Read Overthrow by Stephen Kinzer. I've never been able to finish it because it makes me so angry.

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Response to SeloverB (Reply #10)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 09:06 AM

20. Cool... here's a read for you.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/17/sunday-review/russia-isnt-the-only-one-meddling-in-elections-we-do-it-too.html

But in recent decades, both Mr. Hall and Mr. Johnson argued, Russian and American interferences in elections have not been morally equivalent. American interventions have generally been aimed at helping non-authoritarian candidates challenge dictators or otherwise promoting democracy. Russia has more often intervened to disrupt democracy or promote authoritarian rule, they said.

Equating the two, Mr. Hall says, “is like saying cops and bad guys are the same because they both have guns — the motivation matters.”

----------------
The idea that their meddling is the same as our meddling is russian propaganda.

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Response to woundedkarma (Reply #20)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 09:27 AM

29. Well said - intent matters.

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Response to woundedkarma (Reply #20)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:47 PM

46. When the FUCK has any of that been true?

Except the word “generally?” As in “generally being aimed at helping non-authoritarian challenge dictators or otherwise promoting democracy?”

Was it when we supported coups in Venezuela, or El Salvador, or Honduras. Was it when we spent that decade supporting Saddam, or that decade opposing him? Was it when we supported Communist governments in China or when we opposed them?

What Russia did in 2016 was wrong. If they did it because we were wrong a thousand times before that? STILL FUCKING WRONG.

The idea that their propaganda is somehow magically worse — or ours that ours is better — because our parents were born in a previously specified geographic parameter? Crazier than any conspiracy theory I’ve heard yet.

Yes, yes, yes. I hear you. I’ve read that I’m an “Internationalist,” a commie, someone who “just hates liberals,”, or that I’m just someone who hates America. I’ve read all of that on DU. Recently.

Putin can go fuck himself. At best, Trump should be impeached because of their “relationship” (for lack of a better word).I find it baffling, confusing, that any Democrat is still willing to listen to anti-Leftist viewpoints without considering the sources. The real sources.

Anyone who hadn’t read this old article? PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do so here: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/17/sunday-review/russia-isnt-the-only-one-meddling-in-elections-we-do-it-too.html

The long arm of Vladimir Putin? No, just a small sample of the United States’ history of intervention in foreign elections. ...

“If you ask an intelligence officer, did the Russians break the rules or do something bizarre, the answer is no, not at all,” said Steven L. Hall, who retired in 2015 after 30 years at the C.I.A., where he was the chief of Russian operations. The United States “absolutely” has carried out such election influence operations historically, he said, “and I hope we keep doing it.”

This is not, for those reading this for the first time, a defense of the United States.

This is secret bombing of Cambodia level of insanity, an instance that only “Preparng for War Makes Peace” level of crazy.





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Response to SeloverB (Reply #10)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 09:38 AM

32. Whataboutism... a good old Soviet era tactic.

I've noticed it is making a comeback as well.

The Russians should expect some resistance. We always do whether we install democracy or dictators.

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Response to Vinnie From Indy (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:25 AM

11. The problem for the big Western powers is that they have been and continue to interfere

in several sovereign states. To many on the planet what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

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Response to malaise (Reply #11)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:49 AM

15. it's almost funny to hear MIC's best friend the last 30 years, limbaugh, attacking the CIA

and FBI and other "deep state" elements for working for obama clinton soros in trying to overthrow trump.....

and democrats are the real racists because they were the slave owners etc.

there's no way to have rational fact based discussions on a national level on any of these topics as long as liberals/dems/left ignore 1500 coordinated radio stations that now might as well be working for putin

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Response to certainot (Reply #15)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:53 AM

16. There are times I wonder if all Dems understand

The concept known as hegemony

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Response to Vinnie From Indy (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:31 AM

12. and why were they so successful in the US? limbaugh says "trump" once every minute

you'd think the last place they'd get a bunch of people defending putin would be the US......

all putin had to do is figure out how to feed/pay limbaugh, the leader of several hundred blowhard limbaugh wannabes on 1500 radio stations

in 8 1/2 hours of limbaugh he said a "trump" an avg of every 52 seconds, and it's all good. that's the best branding, reaching 10 to 20 million. with secondary and tertiary recipients, that's the base.

everything they push on talk radio parralels what trump and putin like

are they paying the talk radio gods?

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Response to Vinnie From Indy (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:47 AM

14. The Reason?

Because we’ve been doing it to other countries for decades under whatever means we could get away with at the time. Overtly or covertly attempting to influence foreign governments for the benefit of your own is on most country’s agendas.

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Response to Firestorm49 (Reply #14)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:54 AM

18. Ok fuck it then we'll just sit back and let Putin ruin the world. We deserve it, Right

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Response to njhoneybadger (Reply #18)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 09:02 AM

19. What you just read is the Russian propaganda line...we do it too, so biggy.

Too bad so many of us fall for it.

Shields up, Americans, the Russians have propganda phasers set on "kill". Just "stun" last election.

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Response to Vinnie From Indy (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 09:10 AM

22. Yes!

It was an act of war. A different type of war than tanks rolling into Poland.

"Generals always fight the battles of the last war". You can't fight war with nuclear weapons and bombs unless willing to inflict massive collateral damage. Cyber warfare is Cold War 2 of today.

The USSR of old contained a massive propaganda campaign glossing over a catastrophic failure of its economy from corruption and military overspending. When bread disappeared from the supermarket shelves, the scam was over. The USSR fell and Putin took over to rob the corpse of what assets were left.

Propaganda is their weapon, words are the ammunition. "Meddle" is a word the Russian military would prefer Americans use to define their attack on American democracy.

So cute, isn't it? Don't use the word. Period.

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Response to Vinnie From Indy (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 09:16 AM

24. Clarification of terminology

“Meddling” is something mothers-in-law do. (Not all, but definitely some)
“Interference” is losing your dishTV signal in a thunderstorm.
These terms do not apply.
This was — and is — cyberattacking. So far, directed at political organizations and perhaps even voting systems.
Next up: our power grid.
Do we wait until they go after banks and Wall Street before we take action?!?

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Response to Vinnie From Indy (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 09:30 AM

30. I could not agree more

It makes me so angry to hear journalists, members of congress, etc., refer to this attack as "meddling," instead of what it is: an aggressive attack on our country. It's similar to when they refer to social security and medicare as "entitlements." All of these alternative, wishy-washy words water down the full meaning and only serve to make the true meaning less specific and clear.

Words are important!

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Response to Vinnie From Indy (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 09:42 AM

33. There are all types of wars

trade wars, cold wars, cyber wars. The last time we actually declared war on a country was on 5 June 1942, It just doesn't happen anymore. The cold war style of war, modernized with elements of cyber war, seems to be the flavor of the day.

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Response to Vinnie From Indy (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 09:49 AM

36. russia meddling

Where are all these spineless republicans in congress? When DJT is head of the republican party, he speaks for all reps. How can they even hold their heads up with all the things DJT is doing and has done. Apparently, there isn't a decent, law abiding citizen among them. It's disgraceful. Shame on all republicans for standing by this lunatic.

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Response to Vinnie From Indy (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 09:50 AM

37. Yes I have been saying that since the beginning!

By calling what Russia did "meddling" is downplaying the situation. It's an act of war. There are Russian spies on American soil right now trying to interfere in the next election. This is an act of war. The only reason the GOP is silent on this issue is because they are completely complicit in it. If we get back in power, nothing less than a full embargo on Russia. Sanctions aren't enough.

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Response to Vinnie From Indy (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 03:19 PM

44. Sick of hearing it called "meddling" damn liberal media

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Response to Vinnie From Indy (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:12 PM

45. Interferred is the other euphemism they are fond of using. Attack and theft must become the

narrative, because that is what it was/is.

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Response to Vinnie From Indy (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 09:15 PM

47. To me Russia has been successful ONLY

Because of the perfect storm REPUBLICON congress!! Had we owned the House and Senate they would have failed miserably!!!!!!!

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Response to Vinnie From Indy (Original post)

Tue Jul 31, 2018, 12:25 AM

48. if it is an act of war than we have TREASON

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Response to Vinnie From Indy (Original post)

Tue Jul 31, 2018, 07:04 AM

49. They are running the US president. n/t

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