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Sun Jul 29, 2018, 09:12 AM

 

The absurdity of trying to fight Brexit (or Trump) with facts, explained.

Sloman and Fernbach cite a survey conducted in 2014, not long after Russia annexed the Ukrainian territory of Crimea. Respondents were asked how they thought the U.S. should react, and also whether they could identify Ukraine on a map. The farther off base they were about the geography, the more likely they were to favor military intervention.


Once we make up our mind - which often just involves siding with our tribe - contrary facts become meaningless, in most cases.

Rejecting our beliefs means rejecting our tribe, which goes against what we've evolved into: people who cooperate with our tribe, even when it makes no rational sense.

https://www.tremr.com/Edward-Bernays/brexit-and-the-irrationality-of-the-masses

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Arrow 8 replies Author Time Post
Reply The absurdity of trying to fight Brexit (or Trump) with facts, explained. (Original post)
Chris Studio Jul 2018 OP
JayhawkSD Jul 2018 #1
Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2018 #2
Chris Studio Jul 2018 #4
JayhawkSD Jul 2018 #6
Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2018 #7
Chris Studio Jul 2018 #3
Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2018 #5
Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2018 #8

Response to Chris Studio (Original post)

Sun Jul 29, 2018, 09:49 AM

1. There is a major fallacy, or two, here.

 

The survey was based on something that was not a fact. Russia did not "annex" Crimea. After the democratically elected government of Ukraine was overthrown (and we won't cloud this issue with discussion of who was responsible for that) the people of Crimea, who are of Russian ethnicity, voted to leave Ukraine, become independent and rejoin the Russian Federation. Russia accepted their popular vote.

The United States did not accept their popular vote, claiming that the plebiscite was against international law, which was odd for two reasons. First, no international law prohibits a people's right to self determination, and I cannot imagine a democratic nation supporting such a law if one existed. Second, the United States had supported an identical plebiscite by Kosova to separate itself from Yugoslavia in 1991, providing military intervention (well, NATO, but...) in support of "a people's right to self determination."

So, fighting Trump with facts might be more successful if actual facts were used.

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Response to JayhawkSD (Reply #1)

Sun Jul 29, 2018, 10:01 AM

2. Crimea was indeed annexed, and the Crimean "referendum" was an absolute sham.

I would have hoped you were aware of that fact before you started spouting the Kremlin line.

Sheesh.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #2)

Sun Jul 29, 2018, 10:06 AM

4. Indeed

 

Pretty shocking.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #2)

Sun Jul 29, 2018, 10:20 AM

6. Of course you think that. nt

 

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Response to JayhawkSD (Reply #6)

Sun Jul 29, 2018, 10:25 AM

7. So you want to tell me that a "vote"...

...with a 96% majority supposedly favoring to join the Russian Federation, without even an option to maintain the status quo, conducted just a month after Russian troops seized military and government buildings...

...was a legitimate and fair vote?

Please proceed, Governor.

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Response to JayhawkSD (Reply #1)

Sun Jul 29, 2018, 10:06 AM

3. Talk about a fallacy

 

"The survey was based on something that was not a fact. Russia did not "annex" Crimea. ...the people of Crimea... voted to leave Ukraine, become independent and rejoin the Russian Federation. Russia accepted their popular vote."

Not a word of this is vaguely true.

Russia invaded Crimea, then held a rigged election.

So... you know... hard to take much else you say very seriously.

The Crimean peninsula was annexed from Ukraine by the Russian Federation in February–March 2014.

On 27 February 2014, following the takeover of its building by Russian special forces, the Supreme Council of Crimea voted to hold a referendum on 25 May, with the initial question as to whether Crimea should upgrade its autonomy within Ukraine. The referendum date was later moved from 25 May to 30 March. A Ukrainian court declared the referendum to be illegal.

People whose job it is to monitor elections overwhelmingly said - like Putin's "elections" - that the referendum was essentially a joke.

Evgeny Bobrov, a member of the Russian President's Human Rights Council, suggested the official results were inflated and only 15% to 30% of Crimeans eligible to vote actually voted for the Russian option.

So nice try comrade, but your historical revisionism undercuts any claim of seriousness you may make.

The "observers" that vouched for it were well paid pro-Russian partisans, as has been repeatedly exposed:

http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1458089893

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Response to Chris Studio (Reply #3)

Sun Jul 29, 2018, 10:07 AM

5. Thank you. Nt

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Response to JayhawkSD (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 10:12 AM

8. Also curious about the notion that you don't want to "cloud" what happened in Feb 2014 in Ukraine.

Please don't tell me it involves Victoria Nuland's cookies, though.

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