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Mon Jul 23, 2018, 09:10 AM

When talk of socialism happens, nobody agrees on what it is so why not...

just stop talking about it? It has become a pejorative used by rightwingnuts who know less about it than lefties who idolize it.

Essentially, it is an economic model where the means of production are owned and/or controlled by the population. That's all, and we know that doesn't always work well. It depends upon nationalizing many essential industries, and that's questionable.

The Nordic Model seems to work, although Sweden has been losing its status in world rankings, and all of Scandinavia is taxed to pay for it. Most of them consider the benefits worth the taxes, but they still grumble. Britain follows a lot of it, and it doesn't seem to work much better. The Continent also picks and chooses from the menu and seems to be happy most of the time.

The Swedes, btw, started it by nationalizing German industries within Sweden after WWII. They made out well being neutral during the war, and even better by getting the spoils.

Good or bad, it ain't happening here. Just ain't. The TVA and NY Power Authority were excellent in their time, but pressure to privatize has caused more problems than it solved. Privatize the schools, police, medicine... Throw everything into the maw of the "market" and hope for the best while the sharps make their billions.

This country started in a tax revolt, and not much has changed since-- we don't trust government and we hate paying taxes. Something we just have to deal with while waiting for things to change.

So, enough with the labels. Europe can have all the "democratic socialist" parties they want, but we have to stop falling into the language trap.

I like "Fair" as in fair housing, fair work rules, fair access to health care... Fairness is another meme that got this country started, and it's still resonant.

Nobody can argue against fairness without looking like a fool. Once we get the idea out, then we can talk about just what is fair.

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Original post)

Mon Jul 23, 2018, 09:18 AM

1. I agree 100%.

 

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Original post)

Mon Jul 23, 2018, 09:43 AM

2. A language trap is exactly what it is.

Everyone has their own definition.

I am a DEMOCRAT. That is my label and my set of beliefs. I will vote for Democrats. The hell with all the other semantics.

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Original post)

Mon Jul 23, 2018, 09:50 AM

3. Yep- people ignore the real definition and make their own up and that harms us

 

If you donít understand what socialism as an economic system is, quit saying you are for it.

If you do, and you are not for government or community ownership of all economic resources and means of production, quit making up your own definitions.

Quit saying socialism is fire departments and libraryís and anything government does, as thatís factually incorrect and makes you seem like a fool.

Quit saying the Nordic countries are socialist- they are not and are far from it. Having an expansive public safety net funded by higher levels of individual taxation is not socialism, at all. They in many way regulate and tax corporations less than we do, and they tax the money individuals make working there to fund their system.

Of all the things I wish Bernie Sanders had never done, going around telling people that what he was calling for is socialism is probably the greatest disservice heís done to liberalism in general.

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Response to Lee-Lee (Reply #3)

Mon Jul 23, 2018, 11:23 AM

10. Fire dept's and libraries are, in fact, 'socialistic' in nature ... anything we pay into as society

that is for the collective benefit of all (as opposed to fire departments being private corporations you pay 1000 bucks to, to put out the fire at your house) is a form of 'socialism'.

It's not the dictionary definition of an entire 'socialist STATE', but they are based on 'socialist' concepts. Working together as a society instead of everyone acting at all times as private interests like libertarians fantasize about.

I agree with Dems NOT using the term publicly, though, to be clear ... esp. not NOW. And in fact, I wonder just who people who DO ... are really working for, TBH.

Same w/the ICE Abolishers ... seem like provocateurs to me.

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Original post)

Mon Jul 23, 2018, 09:57 AM

4. When I heard Alexandria Ocasio Cortez describe what she considers

 

Democratic Socialism on the Colbert show, I thought, hey, I'm for all of those things, too, but I still consider myself to be liberal Democrat.

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Original post)

Mon Jul 23, 2018, 10:16 AM

5. who is advocating a 'European or Nordic' model?

...you've made an incomplete and sketchy representation of both socialism and Democratic Socialism.

Is that meant to represent the problem? Instead of endeavoring to explain the differences, you try and stop the rain. Advocates aren't going to change the name just because people who don't believe in or understand the terms want that to happen.

And I'm quite sure scolding won't work.

Tell you what though, if progressives are being persuaded to wrap their heads around and embrace whatever a 'moderate Democrat' is, then there ought to be a reciprocal effort to understand and accept what Democratic socialists are all about.


(love how you call folks 'lefties.' Warm fuzzies all over.)

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Original post)

Mon Jul 23, 2018, 10:27 AM

6. So stop talking about it.

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Original post)

Mon Jul 23, 2018, 10:28 AM

7. Well, it's a good thing that SOCIALISM has a DEFINITION...

Definition of socialism
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism



The problem is made-up terms like DEMOCRATIC Socialism...

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #7)

Mon Jul 23, 2018, 10:35 AM

9. and the name 'Blue Dog Democrats'

...what the hell is that, huh?

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Original post)

Mon Jul 23, 2018, 10:29 AM

8. Love the idea of "fair." I'm trying to think if a concise way to

communicate, "your fair share of the wealth YOU have helped to create."

And you are right that, no matter how much of it we value, it is a linguistic trap and it won't fly in most if the country.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #8)

Mon Jul 23, 2018, 04:41 PM

15. Distributive Fairness? nt

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Original post)

Mon Jul 23, 2018, 11:31 AM

11. Expanding the social safety net and provide greater public services

It's pretty straightforward.

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Original post)

Mon Jul 23, 2018, 11:35 AM

12. Way too many divisive threads like this turning up. I'm suspicious. (nt)

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Response to Paladin (Reply #12)

Mon Jul 23, 2018, 11:38 AM

13. What's divisive about this?

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Original post)

Mon Jul 23, 2018, 12:19 PM

14. Some combination of socialism and capitalism might work here...

but it'll be a long, hard slog, what with the repug, deplorable attitudes of a big segment of the population to contend with.

Education is the key. Mondragon co-operatives in the Basque region of Spain began with educating the people of the economic advantages of shared ownership and combined work to achieve goals.

Can it happen here? I'd like to see our party get behind a small, pilot program as proof of conceptómaybe go right to the deplorables in hard-hit coal country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation

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