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Wed Jul 11, 2018, 09:24 PM

Democratic Party leadership and mainstream media, give up the pretense and call a spade a spade.

I know some will immediately dismiss this as Democratic Party bashing. It isn't, but whatever.

When Schumer and Pelosi (and others, including members of the media) say Trump must make it clear to Putin that the US will not tolerate Russia meddling in US elections, this gives a false impression, especially to the ignorant masses. It suggests that Trump is on the side of the US (vs. Russia) and that Trump might actually do what they're calling on him to do. That is, of course, lunacy.

Trump is, say it with me now, a traitor. A traitor. A traitor. He is a liar. A liar. A liar. He is a criminal. A criminal. A criminal.

From Sabraw's order to the Flores Settlement to the emoluments clause to federal records law regarding communication with world leaders, Trump is - beyond a shadow of a doubt - breaking laws. And the Republican Party is enabling him. They are the law-breaking and disorder party.

Trump lies every time he speaks.

We are not dealing with mere political differences. We're dealing with a criminal, traitorous, cheating, lying Republican Party and Russian president.

If roles were reversed, does anyone think Republicans would hesitate to call a spade a spade? Does anyone think they would cling to pretenses and 'civility'?

Traitor. Liar. Criminal. Use those words. Be provocative. It's the only way to take control of the narrative, which is crucial to winning *big* in November.

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Reply Democratic Party leadership and mainstream media, give up the pretense and call a spade a spade. (Original post)
Garrett78 Jul 11 OP
AlexSFCA Jul 11 #1
DownriverDem Jul 12 #43
JoeOtterbein Jul 11 #2
Name removed Jul 12 #66
JoeOtterbein Jul 12 #68
Name removed Jul 12 #69
JoeOtterbein Jul 12 #70
gohuskies Jul 11 #3
DownriverDem Jul 12 #44
tonyt53 Jul 11 #4
Garrett78 Jul 11 #5
tonyt53 Jul 11 #6
Garrett78 Jul 11 #10
tonyt53 Jul 11 #19
Garrett78 Jul 11 #22
tonyt53 Jul 12 #38
Garrett78 Jul 12 #40
Caliman73 Jul 12 #48
Garrett78 Jul 12 #52
Caliman73 Jul 12 #56
leftofcool Jul 11 #28
DownriverDem Jul 12 #45
Garrett78 Jul 12 #54
Magoo48 Jul 12 #59
Lint Head Jul 11 #7
Garrett78 Jul 11 #11
Chickensoup Jul 11 #8
sprinkleeninow Jul 12 #32
Nevermypresident Jul 12 #57
Snackshack Jul 11 #9
Ponietz Jul 11 #12
Tavarious Jackson Jul 11 #13
Garrett78 Jul 11 #14
Tavarious Jackson Jul 11 #18
EndGOPPropaganda Jul 11 #15
sprinkleeninow Jul 12 #33
EndGOPPropaganda Jul 11 #16
Duppers Jul 12 #30
EndGOPPropaganda Jul 12 #31
Duppers Jul 12 #35
Ferrets are Cool Jul 11 #17
Maven Jul 11 #20
Rhiannon12866 Jul 11 #21
NBachers Jul 11 #23
Atticus Jul 11 #24
Name removed Jul 12 #65
orangecrush Jul 11 #25
world wide wally Jul 11 #26
kentuck Jul 11 #27
NewJeffCT Jul 12 #39
blue-wave Jul 12 #29
Duppers Jul 12 #34
sellitman Jul 12 #36
Cosmocat Jul 12 #37
Name removed Jul 12 #47
Cosmocat Jul 12 #55
Name removed Jul 12 #60
Honeycombe8 Jul 12 #41
Post removed Jul 12 #46
Garrett78 Jul 12 #51
Name removed Jul 12 #61
Name removed Jul 12 #64
Rebl2 Jul 12 #42
lark Jul 12 #49
Garrett78 Jul 12 #53
lark Jul 12 #58
Name removed Jul 12 #67
ck4829 Jul 12 #50
bdamomma Jul 12 #62
Garrett78 Jul 12 #80
RVN VET71 Jul 12 #63
Betsy Ross Jul 12 #71
Crash2Parties Jul 12 #72
Progressive dog Jul 12 #73
Garrett78 Jul 12 #74
Progressive dog Jul 12 #75
Garrett78 Jul 12 #78
Progressive dog Jul 12 #81
Garrett78 Jul 12 #82
Progressive dog Jul 12 #83
Garrett78 Jul 12 #84
Progressive dog Jul 12 #85
Garrett78 Jul 12 #86
Caliman73 Jul 12 #77
Garrett78 Jul 12 #79
Achilleaze Jul 12 #76

Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 09:34 PM

1. I know it's frustraring

they should be saying that he is acting in putinís best interests and against US, he is a national security threat and is likely engaged in criminal activities. Why is it so hard to say it? They canít be possibly that naive and thinking that trump will somehow turn around; they should know better - he has conspired with russia to bring down westerb democracy. Our leaders failed to articulate the national security threat we are facing.

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Response to AlexSFCA (Reply #1)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 11:53 AM

43. Question

When did the Dems say that about trump?

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Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 09:39 PM

2. Apparently they are not talking like "normal people" like trump does. Instead when they go low,

we go high and crush them with the same words the Trump/GOP use. Like crooked Melania who lied her way illegally into the US. etc. I'm sure you get the idea; use their own words against them. That always crushes the many weak, cowardly little yellow powder-puffs of the Trump/GOP.

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Response to JoeOtterbein (Reply #2)


Response to Name removed (Reply #66)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 03:39 PM

68. Hi, no my last name is Otterbein.

I'm from Baltimore.

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Response to JoeOtterbein (Reply #68)


Response to Name removed (Reply #69)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 03:58 PM

70. No problem, I usually get mixed up with Otterbein's Cookies! Also

according to my cousins who researched our family, that we are related to the churchman that the college was named after.

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Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 09:45 PM

3. Totally on board with ya

The election strategy has to be call it like it is, treason. Every last one of the republicans on the ballot need to be bludgeoned with this hammer in ads on tv radio and print and online news outlets with this non stop group of talking points. No playing nice a scorched earth approach has to be on the table. The life of our nation depends on Dems taking congress and the state legislature especially attorney general and Secretary of State positions.

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Response to gohuskies (Reply #3)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 11:56 AM

44. Election Stategy

The Dem candidates are running on jobs, medical insurance and any other issues important to their districts or states. They must have seen polls that say running on trump is not the way to go. The saying All Politics is Local applies.

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Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 09:46 PM

4. They are saying exactly what they should be saying. When trump does otherwise, they nail him.

 

And I do consider this to be Party bashing. But whatever.

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Response to tonyt53 (Reply #4)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 09:52 PM

5. They already know he's a traitor and a liar, who has repeatedly said Russian interference is a hoax.

It's unacceptable that Trump is meeting privately with Putin. Trump will be able to claim that he scolded Putin.

Trump is breaking laws. He's a traitor. He's a liar. Don't beat around the diplomatic bush. Call a spade a spade. Take control of the narrative.

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Response to Garrett78 (Reply #5)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 09:57 PM

6. This is July. Americans have very short memories. Won't do a damn bit of good now.

 

Taking control of the narrative now gives trump and the GOP months to recover.

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Response to tonyt53 (Reply #6)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 10:04 PM

10. Take control and sustain control. Don't wait until it's too late.

Republicans have been allowed to get away with pushing the "liberal media" narrative for decades, and it has paid off for them. In a big, big way.

Surely Democrats can manage to take control of the narrative and sustain it for 4 months.

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Response to Garrett78 (Reply #10)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 10:51 PM

19. Surely you jest. HRC destroyed him in the debates. But only remembered 2 weeks before the election

 

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Response to tonyt53 (Reply #19)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 10:58 PM

22. Yeah, she did, but what does that have to do with this discussion?

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Response to Garrett78 (Reply #22)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 09:31 AM

38. Uh, the short memory of Americans, as per the discussion. Appears you forgot too.

 

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Response to tonyt53 (Reply #38)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 11:15 AM

40. My point was about sustaining the narrative. Not taking control of it now only to lose it in a week.

Like how the "liberal media" narrative has been allowed to dominate for decades. Decades.

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Response to Garrett78 (Reply #5)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 12:51 PM

48. Elected officials speak on the record, all the time...

As such, they need to be careful that they do not open themselves up for legal action.

It certainly appears that Trump is a traitor, that he is breaking laws, that he is making decisions to the benefit of Russia and the detriment of the US. We certainly see that. However, it is different than those things actually being factual.

I agree with you that the Democrats should be using more assertive and forceful language to point out how Trump is seeming tearing down all of the institutions that have shaped America into the nation that the world has respected over the last 150 years.

It isn't necessarily diplomacy, though I do get irritated when the congressional "niceties" are continually observed by the Democrats and never by the Republicans.

Democratic politicians should be point out what Trump's actions "look like" not calling him a "traitor" because a Traitor is a legal definition that has fallen into the vernacular, but within legal and political contexts is can have significant consequences.

I would say, "Donald Trump definitely says things that are untrue, inaccurate, and misleading. If he is doing it intentionally, then he is a liar. If he is doing it out of ignorance, then he is showing how unfit he is to be the leader of the most powerful nation on earth and proving that Hillary Clinton was right about him not having the temperament to lead".

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Response to Caliman73 (Reply #48)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 01:50 PM

52. I hear what you're saying, but your suggested paragraph is too wordy for the average voter.

I'd simplify it to something like, "Trump lies every time he speaks and his actions indicate treason."

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Response to Garrett78 (Reply #52)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 02:12 PM

56. Agreed.

My wife tells me I am too wordy and give the average voter too much credit.

Simple and sweet is good but my point is that a traitor is not a traitor until convicted. Someone posted about the Rosenberg's, and two other people who were convicted of espionage. The key word is convicted.

I have no doubt that Trump lies often. He is also really really stupid and lazy so some of the things he says are just plain ignorant and not deliberate lies.

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Response to tonyt53 (Reply #4)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 11:55 PM

28. Who nails him?

I have yet to see anyone nail Trump except in a tweet. Once in a while Swalwell comes out on TV to say a few things but most of them are silent. I love my Party but it is time for some thick skinned, red blooded, hair on fire Democrats to start breathing fire.

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Response to tonyt53 (Reply #4)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 11:58 AM

45. Yep

I'm am so sick of the Dem bashing. Some folks lean too far left and that is why they keep attacking the Dems. What they don't get is that we need more voters than just the far left. The goal it to win.

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Response to DownriverDem (Reply #45)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 01:59 PM

54. Calling Trump a liar and traitor doesn't have anything to do with "far left" politics.

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Response to tonyt53 (Reply #4)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 02:29 PM

59. Party Bashing,

really? A simple statement by a DU member about how they would approach a situation that the party is handling differently is discussion promoting, not party bashing. The more we tighten down the screws on our discussions and differences of opinion about varried approaches to our partyís language and stance, the more we become irrelevant in the construction of powerful party tactics.

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Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 10:00 PM

7. They need to make it clear to Trump that he is a

fucking traitor.

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Response to Lint Head (Reply #7)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 10:06 PM

11. It's definitely time to use the 't' word.

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Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 10:00 PM

8. Thanks for saying it.

You will be bashed like I was many times by people who can't tolerate a different view.
Someone who understand that the best
defense is a good offense.
Someone who knows that it is better
to follow several strategies at the same
time than bet everything on only one
strategy because losing is not an option.

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Response to Chickensoup (Reply #8)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 12:32 AM

32. Best defense is a good offense. 👍 eom

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Response to Chickensoup (Reply #8)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 02:16 PM

57. I couldn't agree more. We need a multi-prong approach

and more of a "strategy" than just working for the Blue Wave.

You know, "eggs in one basket"....

Note: Call out to any DU'ers who might ever want to organize a peaceful sit-in protest in DC. Contact me.

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Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 10:02 PM

9. Agreed.

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Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 10:27 PM

12. Absolutely Time to Bring It

Call em out. Thank you for saying this.

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Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 10:33 PM

13. I wrote both Schumer and Pelosi

I'm not a Bernie supporter. I'm a strong democrat but our leaders need to raise a lot more noise.

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Response to Tavarious Jackson (Reply #13)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 10:36 PM

14. Ditto to all of that.

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Response to Garrett78 (Reply #14)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 10:47 PM

18. I'm pissed.

This is a national crises and our leaders need to do more than release statements on twitter. They need to be more like Maxine Waters. Again, I am a strong Hillary supporter and this is healthy criticism. We should not be silenced about this.

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Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 10:42 PM

15. Traitor. Liar. Criminal. +1

I've been saying "the president is a criminal"
Maybe I should amend that to
"The president is a criminal traitor"

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Response to EndGOPPropaganda (Reply #15)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 12:34 AM

33. And an Anti-American. (no text)

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Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 10:44 PM

16. Also, helpful responses

You KNOW some brainwashed Republican will say

"He isn't a traitor because treason is only possible if there is a declared war against a country!"

Response:

"That is stupid semantics. The Rosenbergs were convicted of espionage. They were traitors. Klaus Fuchs was convicted of espionage. He was a traitor. Alger Hiss passed info to Russia. He was a traitor. We have a word "TRAITOR" for when an American helps a foreign enemy. That's what Donald Trump did. He is a traitor."

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Response to EndGOPPropaganda (Reply #16)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 12:10 AM

30. That's exactly what

My hubs said just tonight.

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Response to Duppers (Reply #30)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 12:16 AM

31. It comes from right wing propaganda media.

Luckily now you know what to say in response.

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Response to EndGOPPropaganda (Reply #31)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 01:57 AM

35. Yes

Hubs brought up the Rosenbergs, Hiss, etc. Trump has committed treason.

Blue-wave below wrote a great post that included this quote:

"There are but two parties now: traitors and patriots. And I want hereafter to be ranked with the latter and, I trust, the stronger party."
- Ulysses S. Grant

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Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 10:44 PM

17. Preach it!!

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Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 10:54 PM

20. I agree. Enough of this "why would he do that?" coy nonsense.

We know why.

Itís clear as day.

Say it.

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Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 10:55 PM

21. K&R! There is no "normalizing" traitorous and criminal acts!

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Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 11:03 PM

23. Democratic leaders: Turn that squeaky little squawk box into an air-raid siren.

Enough with the damp dish-towel hand wringing. Let er rip!

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Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 11:07 PM

24. Racist, mysoginist, bigot, infant--------nt

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Response to Atticus (Reply #24)


Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 11:33 PM

25. Wait till Mueller's report comes out


Then there will be irrefutable evidence to support those words.

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Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 11:34 PM

26. This. Isn't about winning elections anymore...

This IS about saving America from a traitor.
Never forget that.

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Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 11:54 PM

27. Trump is one of Putin's oligarchs and he wants a promotion.

He's doing his best to persuade Mr Putin, but he doesn't want the people to think that he is being too nice to Mr Putin.

First, he pisses off Germany and all our allies. Then, he criticizes Germany as he attempts to criticize Russia? Then he goes off on some tangent, as if it is part of a big business deal? Germany is about to receive a big percentage of their oil thru a pipeline from Russia. That would be an issue if Trump were a shareholder in a Russian oil company. There are rumors that it was the deal that Carter Page was involved with? Nobody knows how much?

But, it does appear that it was for the benefit of Mr Trump.

Trump has been moving up in the rich and swinging oligarch world that works with Vladimir Putin. After some world beauty pageant, in 2013, he had met Agalarov, one of Putin's oligarchs, and whose son was a wannabe rock singer. He truly sucked.

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Response to kentuck (Reply #27)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 11:14 AM

39. I honestly don't think

that Trump is wealthy enough (if you subtract out his debt) to be considered an oligarch.

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Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 12:04 AM

29. We should be

yelling this from every mountain top.

There was a civil war in our country once that we were losing. A general took command of our armies and actually turned the war around and we won. This is not a war with bullets, but it is a fight none the less. That hard-headed, focused general's quote is below.


"There are but two parties now: traitors and patriots. And I want hereafter to be ranked with the latter and, I trust, the stronger party." Ulysses S. Grant

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Response to blue-wave (Reply #29)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 01:56 AM

34. +100

Thank you!

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Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 08:18 AM

36. +1 N/T

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Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 08:35 AM

37. Agree - with a VERY fine point

Any comment on 45 should be a VERY short, simple statement of fact.

Then there should ALWAYS be a turn to hold the republican party responsible, and THAT should be the focus.

Trump can't open his mouth without lying.
Trump is the most uncivil human being imaginable.
Trump is Putin's willing dupe.

We MUST hold republicans responsible not just for foisting him on this country, and the world. But, also for being his submissive enablers. There is no republican party now, there is only a mean spirited, hateful cult that quivers in his presence. We are at the lowest point in our history as a democracy because of the republican party. Be it tax scams, destroying health care, destroying the environment, normalizing graft and incompetence at all levels of government, breathing air into white supremacy in this country, the republican party has no light in its soul, only hate and a singular focus to divide this country to enable the rich and corporations to steamroll average americans.



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Response to Cosmocat (Reply #37)


Response to Name removed (Reply #47)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 02:10 PM

55. Huh?

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Response to Cosmocat (Reply #55)


Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 11:29 AM

41. TRUE. The Repubs have it all over the Dems w/MESSAGING & SLOGANS

They have won the House, the Senate, and the Presidency (w/Russia's help)...mainly because they are better at MESSAGING and riling up their base because of fear.

The Dem leaders need to get with the program, IMO. Being polite & going high and being obtuse and academic is not working. If the Dem representatives don't change, I shudder to think of what may happen in the near future. Not that the politicians need to sink to Trump's level. That's a level that's unacceptable for any decent person. But we can certainly be bolder, more pointed in our language, stronger, and use strategy and repeated short terms to drive home the points to be made.

The Repubs spread like tentacles across the media to send out slogan-like soundbites attacking the Democrats. They have hate radio, which does a GREAT deal of damage...that's like a private conversation between Limpballs and the listener, and it's filled with repeated hypnotic phrasing that bangs home the image of liberals as weak on defense, liberals hate America, liberals want to take away our guns, liberals want to abort babies with no restrictions, liberals want to make taxpayers pay to support freeloaders, liberals want illegal immigrants so their voting base will get bigger, liberals are big government and nanny government...liberals liberals liberals!!! Bad bad bad!!! Evil evil evil!!! Liberals hate veterans!! "Liberal media!!!"

And WE, OTOH, issue statements, "Trump should do (such and such)." or "Trump shouldn't attack our allies." "We're shocked that Trump is not telling the truth again."

The latter statements are no match from the Repub statements and advertising, which is what it is. The same messages are drummed into people's heads EVERY DAY...via hate radio and Fox. Like the beating of a loud drum. The same words are used. Different people uset hem. Over and over and over and over....

Until the Dems start sending out the dogs to spread across various media, with short strong statements, we'll lose the messaging war. The Repubs have won that war so far. Liberal media...most people in the country believe that, despite stats that show otherwise. The Repubs have been driving home that slogan "liberal media" for DECADES.

Being right doesn't always mean you win. We have a chance to rise like a phoenix from the ashes of loss. I hope we're able to do it. It's not about a political party. It's about the country, the democracy, human rights, standard of living, financial soundness and equity, and life liberty & the pursuit of happiness.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #41)


Response to Post removed (Reply #46)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 01:45 PM

51. Scaramucci? Really?

Things change. Ohio might remain red, while other states (such as AZ, GA, TX) turn blue. Missouri used to be a bellwether state. Things change.

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Response to Garrett78 (Reply #51)


Response to Garrett78 (Reply #51)


Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 11:39 AM

42. Add two more to the list

Russian sympathizer and operative.

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Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 12:57 PM

49. I totally agree.

Making nice falls into their trap, tell the truth, they are al liars, criminals and traitors

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Response to lark (Reply #49)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 01:55 PM

53. Unless one has been living the hermit life for the last several decades...

...one knows damn well that Republicans would not hesitate to be repetitively blunt were roles reversed. I hate to say it, but Republicans are better at framing.

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Response to Garrett78 (Reply #53)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 02:21 PM

58. They are better at framing because they have no conscience.

They "frame" taking health care away from millions as protecting them. They "frame" a huge tax cut only for the rich that deliberately targets Dem states with tax raises as the largest tax cut for the consumer, ever. Both are 100% lies and exactly the opposite of what they state. They "frame" jailing babies as necessary for our security when it's only about absolutely torturing brown folks and a money grifting scheme for drumpf and DeVos and who knows who else is on the take? Dems try to tell the truth and it's not as sexy as a total self-serving, consumer hurting, lie. The truth is more complicated, that's why they do simple.

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Response to lark (Reply #58)


Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 12:58 PM

50. K&R

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Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 02:36 PM

62. you would think

tRump is meeting his handler with no note taking and with just translators on Monday, it would get everyone in a uproar that he is a traitor, and the Russian press is going to tell us how the meeting went, after all the Russian press was laughing yesterday at tRump that tRump is doing Putin's work of trying to dismantle NATO.

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Response to bdamomma (Reply #62)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 08:09 PM

80. Trump will be able to claim anything he wants about the private meeting...

...and few in the media will question him, much less raise hell about the fact that he's having a private meeting with an adversary.

Just as few seem to care that he's breaking federal records law by having private conversations with world leaders on his cell phone. To say nothing of the emoluments clause, though that's gotten a little more attention.

And then there's his violation of Sabraw's court order, and his ignoring the Flores Settlement.

No other president could get away with 1/10th as much shit.

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Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 02:46 PM

63. Michele Wolff at Correspondents Dinner said

The Dems are "somehow gonna find a way to lose by 12 points to a guy named Jeff Pedophile Nazi Doctor".

And you know you cannot really disagree with her considering who the Dems lost to in 2016. So I don't expect much in the way of "being provocative" from them. Just more of the same strategy of playing it safe, being nice, and hoping the voters will agree that the nice party should get the votes and the nasty, lying party should not.

(I'd hoped the Dems had learned. But after Schumer and Pelosi spoke for the party in denouncing as "uncivil" the actually very civil expulsion of Sara Huckabee Sanders from a restaurant, and the more aggressive promptings levied against Kirstjen Nielsen's who had to flee from a crowd shouting "Shame" at her for her support and endorsement of the Trump-Sessions policy of stealing children, I've figured we're due to get more of the same in November.

Oh, without hesitation, I'll be voting Democrat again this November, but it will be in spite of their lack of public animus over what Trump and his lackeys are doing, and only because it will represent a vote in favor of the Republic and against heartless, hateful, fascist Republicans.)

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Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 03:59 PM

71. Treason

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Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 07:22 PM

72. Trump has innoculated the country against those words.

For years now Trump has used Traitor, Liar & Criminal against anyone he thought was his enemy.

People got used to hearing those words and knowing they meant nothing.

Now they are used accurately and people automatically still assume they mean nothing.

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Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 07:30 PM

73. Whenever I read complaints about the Democratic leaders

instead of the Trump apologists, I do think of Democratic Party bashing. The complaints could almost have come from the mouth of Trump. He obviously would like us to put in new leadership. For that reason alone, I would not support a change in our leaders.
Bringing pressure on Pelosi and Schumer will divide our party and hurt us in November. Trump and his Russian helpers did divide us in 2016. They're doing it again.


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Response to Progressive dog (Reply #73)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 07:34 PM

74. "The complaints could almost have come from the mouth of Trump."

Sure, I could totally see Trump arguing that Democrats (and the media, which I also mentioned) should drop all pretense (like pretending that Trump would dare to scold Putin) and that he (Trump) should be called the traitor, liar and criminal that he is.

Totally sounds like Trump. "I'm a traitor, a liar and a criminal. And the Democrats are just too shy to call me those things."

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Response to Garrett78 (Reply #74)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 07:47 PM

75. Trump woud love Pelosi and Schumer to act like children

The part about the Democrats being too shy certainly sounds like something out of Trump's mouth. He would love the Democratic leaders to name call, instead of working to protect the Mueller investigation.Trump relishes name calling but doesn't like facts.
Criminal and traitor have legal meanings, so it is not factual to call Trump a criminal or a traitor. I'll bet some of those "ignorant masses" know that much.

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Response to Progressive dog (Reply #75)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 07:54 PM

78. Trump has broken numerous laws. And he's told thousands of lies. This is documented.

As for "traitor," I've already conceded earlier in this thread that they could phrase it as, "Trump's actions point in the direction of treason."

But there's no doubt that he's breaking laws and lying. None whatsoever.

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Response to Garrett78 (Reply #78)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 08:25 PM

81. Trump is not runnung in 2018

It's simple, he is not running. Pelosi and Schumer are working to get Democrats elected to the Senate and the House. Each of us only gets to vote for one representative and perhaps one house member.
This looking for reasons to get rid of the Democratic leadership when the elected representatives who choose that leadership are not even in place is Democratic party bashing.

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Response to Progressive dog (Reply #81)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 08:32 PM

82. But Trump is being enabled by the Republican Party as a whole, and many Republicans are running.

Furthermore, it's about controlling the narrative. Being a bit more provocative would help. In the meantime, Trump dominates the airwaves. As he's been doing for the last 3 years.

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Response to Garrett78 (Reply #82)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 09:05 PM

83. Beng prevocative about Trump keeps Trump in the news

He has a much bigger platform than the minority leaders. Of course he is in the news, he is President of the USA.
The only way to control the narrative is to control the media. Democrats don't. It doesn't help Democrats to push the narrative of our leadership needing to be replaced. The time for that was after the 2016 elections.
Democrats need money, they need positive news about them in their districts, what they don't need is a fight about who their leaders will be after the election.

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Response to Progressive dog (Reply #83)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 09:10 PM

84. Yes, of course he's in the news. But he's in the news in a fashion that benefits him.

With effort, we can change that.

I haven't said anything about changing the leadership now or after the election in November.

I'm asking that Democrats in Congress drop the pretense that Trump would even consider scolding Putin. Let's not normalize him in that way. Trump answers to Putin. Any suggestion that he would speak truth to Putin is absurd. Just as absurd as the fact that Trump is having a private meeting with Putin, about which hell must be raised.

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Response to Garrett78 (Reply #84)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 09:24 PM

85. So Trump meeting with Putin

and lying about NATO allies, lying about NAFTA, abusing the law to put tariffs on Canada, taking children hostage without any plan to return them to their parents, lying about N. Korean denuclearization, etc. are beneficial to Trump and you think that Pelosi and Schumer calling him names would be more effective.

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Response to Progressive dog (Reply #85)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 09:32 PM

86. Well, those headlines do dominate DU and maybe MSNBC.

Just as I'm not talking about changing leadership, I'm not talking about calling names. I'm talking about being more blunt and dropping pretenses. That's all.

But the last word is yours if you want it. This is tiresome.

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Response to Progressive dog (Reply #73)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 07:51 PM

77. We are actually supposed to understand nuance.

I think that this is nuance, and a bit of misunderstanding of the issue.

This is a frequent argument I have with my wife, who is more of a firebrand than I am.

Garrett78, not without valid reason, would like the leaders of the Democratic Party and the media to use stronger language to call out Trump.

I think that legally, it would not be a great idea to call Trump a traitor, because that is sort of a legal word. I do think that what Trump is doing would likely amount to treason in the sense that he is damaging relationships with historic allies while responding in ways that seem to give comfort to countries that have shown hostile intent toward the US recently.

I also think that he lies, frequently, although I also think that he says things impulsively, without checking his information out of laziness and ignorance, which are not the definition of lying. Lies are intentional statements or omissions designed to mislead. He does both and sometimes it is difficult to tell.

I think that Pelosi and Schumer, and the rest of the Party do need to understand that we want people to fight HARD for our values and that the idea that the Republicans are rational actors is no longer valid at this point. I certainly do not want to replace Pelosi, though I am not as big a fan of Schumer. We need both the wisdom and experience of the leadership, but also the fire and fight to take on this bully.

Lately, to me, the statements of the leadership have been too tame. I understand why they feel they need to be diplomatic, but I think people want to see fire with a bit of temperance rather than "my esteemed colleagues from across the aisle are wrong..."

We need to do as John Fugelsang said, "Vote the Democrats into power, and then kick the hell out of them to fight for us."

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Response to Caliman73 (Reply #77)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 08:04 PM

79. And let's remember a couple of points:

1) I also called out the media.

2) I referred specifically to the pretense that Trump might actually tell Putin it's unacceptable for him to meddle in US elections. At this point, that's just absurd. Trump will do no such thing, and we all know it. Let's not pretend otherwise. Let's not suggest that Trump might be on the US's side against Russia, and that we (Democrats) simply have a different take on policy. Let's instead be very clear about who Trump is working for, and who he is working against.

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Response to Garrett78 (Original post)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 07:51 PM

76. yes

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