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Wed Jul 11, 2018, 05:26 PM

the boys were sedated, passed from diver to diver, through the cave - monitored by drs posted in cav

he video of the rescue, which ended on Tuesday when the final four boys and their 25-year-old coach emerged from the cave, was released by authorities who had until today closely guarded the details of the unprecedented operation. After days of speculation, a former Thai Navy SEAL diver revealed the boys were sleeping or partially conscious as they were passed from diver to diver through the cave. 'Some of them were asleep, some of them were wiggling their fingers... (as if) groggy, but they were breathing,' Commander Chaiyananta Peeranarong said. 'My job was to transfer them along,' he said, adding the 'boys were wrapped up in stretchers already when they were being transferred' and were monitored at regular intervals by doctors posted along the kilometres-long escape route.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5943187/Navy-SEAL-footage-shows-moment-tranquilised-Thai-cave-boys-pulled-safety.html



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Reply the boys were sedated, passed from diver to diver, through the cave - monitored by drs posted in cav (Original post)
Demovictory9 Jul 11 OP
pnwmom Jul 11 #1
backtoblue Jul 11 #3
Crutchez_CuiBono Jul 11 #2
Demovictory9 Jul 11 #9
Crutchez_CuiBono Jul 11 #10
Blues Heron Jul 11 #4
SixString Jul 11 #20
Blue_true Jul 11 #51
Ms. Toad Jul 11 #52
DarthDem Jul 11 #75
applegrove Jul 12 #83
Ms. Toad Jul 12 #90
DarthDem Jul 12 #100
Hoyt Jul 11 #22
Phentex Jul 11 #29
DarthDem Jul 11 #74
treestar Jul 11 #25
joshcryer Jul 11 #26
NCTraveler Jul 11 #42
canetoad Jul 11 #57
Ilsa Jul 11 #69
Demovictory9 Jul 11 #80
coti Jul 12 #97
DeminPennswoods Jul 11 #5
Demovictory9 Jul 11 #6
Crutchez_CuiBono Jul 11 #11
Demovictory9 Jul 11 #12
DeminPennswoods Jul 11 #14
Crutchez_CuiBono Jul 11 #17
MontanaMama Jul 11 #30
milestogo Jul 11 #35
MontanaMama Jul 11 #36
GoCubsGo Jul 11 #48
MontanaMama Jul 11 #53
GoCubsGo Jul 11 #56
MontanaMama Jul 11 #58
smirkymonkey Jul 11 #40
MontanaMama Jul 11 #43
backtoblue Jul 11 #7
mcar Jul 11 #8
lostnfound Jul 11 #15
mcar Jul 11 #16
BigmanPigman Jul 11 #13
calimary Jul 11 #54
Ms. Toad Jul 11 #67
sprinkleeninow Jul 11 #77
Ms. Toad Jul 12 #88
coti Jul 12 #98
Ms. Toad Jul 12 #101
Blue_true Jul 11 #63
Crutchez_CuiBono Jul 11 #18
sheshe2 Jul 11 #19
underthematrix Jul 11 #21
librechik Jul 11 #23
MoonchildCA Jul 11 #37
librechik Jul 11 #45
Sophia4 Jul 11 #24
lame54 Jul 11 #27
malaise Jul 11 #41
PatSeg Jul 11 #28
DoctorJoJo Jul 11 #31
nuxvomica Jul 11 #32
GoCubsGo Jul 11 #50
reACTIONary Jul 11 #61
USALiberal Jul 11 #62
reACTIONary Jul 11 #64
Pacifist Patriot Jul 12 #93
reACTIONary Jul 12 #102
reACTIONary Jul 12 #106
reACTIONary Jul 11 #65
Kali Jul 11 #78
reACTIONary Jul 12 #103
mr_lebowski Jul 12 #81
Pacifist Patriot Jul 12 #94
reACTIONary Jul 12 #105
Ms. Toad Jul 13 #110
reACTIONary Jul 13 #112
reACTIONary Jul 12 #104
mr_lebowski Jul 13 #107
Pacifist Patriot Jul 13 #109
reACTIONary Jul 13 #111
LincolnRossiter Jul 11 #33
calimary Jul 11 #59
LincolnRossiter Jul 11 #68
Princess Turandot Jul 11 #34
saidsimplesimon Jul 11 #38
malaise Jul 11 #39
grantcart Jul 11 #46
malaise Jul 11 #49
DarthDem Jul 11 #47
CaliforniaPeggy Jul 11 #55
DarthDem Jul 11 #71
CaliforniaPeggy Jul 11 #76
applegrove Jul 12 #85
Ms. Toad Jul 11 #66
DarthDem Jul 11 #73
Ms. Toad Jul 12 #87
applegrove Jul 12 #86
Ms. Toad Jul 12 #89
applegrove Jul 12 #84
DarthDem Jul 12 #99
Honeycombe8 Jul 11 #44
canetoad Jul 11 #60
joshcryer Jul 12 #91
canetoad Jul 12 #92
lindysalsagal Jul 11 #70
applegrove Jul 11 #72
Judi Lynn Jul 11 #79
mr_lebowski Jul 12 #82
wryter2000 Jul 12 #95
BlancheSplanchnik Jul 12 #96
Raine Jul 13 #108

Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 05:27 PM

1. Wow! Brilliant. What an effort! n/t

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #1)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 05:29 PM

3. ++++1000000



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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 05:27 PM

2. W-WW-W WOW!!

Now THAT's a humanitarian effort! Great great idea and execution of the plan!

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Response to Crutchez_CuiBono (Reply #2)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 05:34 PM

9. video of the rescue at link shows a whole crowd of people in there

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Response to Demovictory9 (Reply #9)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 05:35 PM

10. That's an amazing idea.

Risky, but, it worked!

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 05:30 PM

4. wow applegrove was right!

applegrove caught a lot of grief for suggesting just this!

https://upload.democraticunderground.com/100210828669

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Response to Blues Heron (Reply #4)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 05:48 PM

20. A lot of DU "experts" wrong in that thread.

Maybe they will issue an apology to applegrove.

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Response to SixString (Reply #20)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 07:35 PM

51. Experts in anything give opinions based upon experience and the parameters that they have worked

with. The rescue may have been so difficult that the parameters that experts understand were exceeded. If the boys and their coach were likely going to die anyway unless something was done to free them, then something that MAY work, but would not normally be tried due to risk becomes an option.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #51)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 08:06 PM

52. Not to mention -

the boys did not dive out. They were essentialy wrapped up like packages and carried out. That's a very different matter than diving under mind-altering drugs (which is what all of us in that thread were addressing).

In that scenario - in which everyone else is doing the work and it is essential that the boys not interfere with that work - it is safer to have them unable to interfere.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #52)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 11:25 PM

75. Sorry, But This Is . . .


. . . an angels on the head of a pin argument. The experts posting in that thread and doing the Internet equivalent of shouting applegrove down should have known that the boys were not going to be doing the work. *I* knew that and I didn't have as keen a grasp of the situation as applegrove and am far from any sort of certified diver. The attacks on applegrove made no sense and were, ultimately, completely wrong.

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Response to DarthDem (Reply #75)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 12:35 AM

83. I sensed that some of the attacks were for attacks sake and not authentic. I

Last edited Thu Jul 12, 2018, 01:07 AM - Edit history (1)

did not take it personally.

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Response to DarthDem (Reply #75)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 02:50 AM

90. It's actually not.

Sedation is appropriate - and even brilliant when the boys need to do nothing (and, in fact doing anything they do other than being carried might mean death for the boy or the rescuers). The sedation makes the boys safer because it prevents them from interfering in the rescue.

In contrast, when we thought the boys were responsible for moving themselves out of the cave (the entire discussion in the other thrad), any mind-altering medication that has not been fully tested in the boys in similar circumstances makes the rescue more dangerous, because the impact on mental acuity could lead to mistakes and death for the boy and potentially for the rescuer.

You really can't see a substantive difference between needing to be relaxed and pliable so that someone else can move you through narrow corriders (making sedation helpful) - and - needing to be hyper-alert to find small fingerholds, scramble up and down over rocks - sometimes in water, sometimes out, keep hold of a line, and not make any mistakes for several hours? Perhaps a better question - would you want a rescue diver on anti-anxiety medication (all of which have potential side effects of diziness and sleepiness)? That is essentially the position the children would have been in had they dived out - only with virtually no training or skills.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #90)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 05:46 PM

100. You're Still Missing the Point


applegrove was making a suggestion. I don't remember and honestly don't care if you were one of them, but a host of people flew in and ridiculed it. She says she didn't take it personally and that's good, because the whole thing was very typical of many DU flamewars, particularly ones with "experts" in a particular field who make no room for any other opinion but their own.

The attacks on applegrove utterly dismissed any possibility of giving the boys ANY sort of medication. Master diver! 400 years of experience! Never would such a thing be tried!

. . . except the people who did the actual rescue, with complete success, did try something quite similar, and so applegrove was far closer to the truth than people attacking her. Your technical distinction - augmented by whatever sizeable axe you have to grind as you're all over this thread - is less a "substantive difference" and more something one of these expert attackers should have quite logically suggested as an alternative. None did.

It's as though someone started a thread about some unfolding real-life legal event and said, "Well, perhaps someone should try Legal Option A," and I pounced all over the thread and insisted that Legal Option A was completely untenable, and was utterly unheard of, argle bargle, and attempted to close down all discussion. Meanwhile, in the real word, someone tries Legal Option A(2), which is extremely close to Legal Option A, and it works.

I know for sure that I would be pretty embarrassed, in my haste to show another poster what time it was, if I failed to consider the possibility of a solution quite close to the one proposed by that poster. I would be even more embarrassed if the people actually handling the affair tried that "solution quite close" and it worked. But that's just me.

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Response to Blues Heron (Reply #4)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 05:55 PM

22. Thinking same thing. Some apologizes are due.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #22)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:17 PM

29. Don't hold your breath!

pun intended

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Response to Phentex (Reply #29)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 11:22 PM

74. Point Taken


On both counts!

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Response to Blues Heron (Reply #4)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:15 PM

25. +1

Thought of that thread as soon as the word "sedated" appeared!

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Response to Blues Heron (Reply #4)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:15 PM

26. I remember that thread.

And yes indeed that poster caught a lot of grief.

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Response to Blues Heron (Reply #4)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:43 PM

42. Quickly clicks link...

To see what kind of an ass I made of myself.

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Response to Blues Heron (Reply #4)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 08:27 PM

57. Maybe yes....

I read yesterday at another site that they were given anti-anxiety medication. That may or may not equate to sedation. I'd like to hear full details from a reliable source.

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Response to Blues Heron (Reply #4)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 10:21 PM

69. I mentioned the possibility of using anti-anxiety medication

and got pounded by one person for the idea of giving any med like this to a kid, even under special circumstances.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #69)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 11:50 PM

80. You should start an "I told you so" thread

Seems there are a lot eating crow

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #69)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 01:52 PM

97. I mentioned it in an LBN thread, though no one came after me.

I'm very, very glad they thought of and had the courage to do this. It probably saved many of the boys' lives, and the rescuers' too.

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 05:31 PM

5. I heard a US Navy participant

say the US search/rescue/survival team was stationed in passage #3. That explains why so many divers were involved and why going in/coming out took so many hours.

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Response to DeminPennswoods (Reply #5)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 05:33 PM

6. explains why they were rushed off by ambulance, out of view.

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Response to DeminPennswoods (Reply #5)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 05:36 PM

11. Strange we didn't see news coverage of it.

Are you sure? Somehow dt wouldve gloated.

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Response to Crutchez_CuiBono (Reply #11)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 05:38 PM

12. they didn't tell him. the world knows he can't keep a secret

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Response to Crutchez_CuiBono (Reply #11)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 05:41 PM

14. Yep, I can't remember if it was on CNN or MSNBC

but they interviewed a young Navy woman.

Trump is too busy with tweets, campaign rallies, fighting with our allies and making sure attention is focused on him 100% of the time to notice. And I'm glad. These US military personnel make me proud to be American. Trump doesn't need to ruin that.

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Response to DeminPennswoods (Reply #14)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 05:43 PM

17. Right on.

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Response to Crutchez_CuiBono (Reply #11)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:20 PM

30. Can we sedate Dotard?

For a really long time?

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Response to MontanaMama (Reply #30)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:29 PM

35. And can we have the Navy Seals put him in a bag and swim him into that cave

and leave him there with a bucket of KFC and an oxygen tank?

He'll survive. He's the most physically fit president the US has ever had.

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Response to milestogo (Reply #35)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:32 PM

36. Even better.

A man of his girth would never make it out.

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Response to MontanaMama (Reply #36)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 07:06 PM

48. He couldn't make it in, let alone out.

The "choking point" was only 15" wide. His neck, if you want to call it that, is wider than that.

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Response to GoCubsGo (Reply #48)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 08:23 PM

53. Just the thought alone...

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Response to MontanaMama (Reply #53)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 08:26 PM

56. LOL!!! Oh, gosh!

I didn't even intend it that way. It's what Bob Ross would call a "happy accident."

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Response to GoCubsGo (Reply #56)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 08:33 PM

58. Where is SNL

when we need them???? Hooray for happy accidents. 😉

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Response to MontanaMama (Reply #30)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:39 PM

40. Like, permanently?

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Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #40)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:45 PM

43. I so wanted to say that!

I was afraid of an alert for suggesting it... Great minds and all that...

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 05:33 PM

7. Kick and Rec.

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 05:33 PM

8. They had to plan for the boys panicking

Smart move to keep them safe.

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Response to mcar (Reply #8)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 05:41 PM

15. Kind, also, so they won't remember it

Would be the stuff of nightmares.

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Response to lostnfound (Reply #15)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 05:42 PM

16. I didn't think of that

Good point!

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 05:38 PM

13. They would have to knock me out too.

At least a few Xanax beforehand would calm me down and it would be a lot easier on the rescue workers since they wouldn't have to worry about my sudden freak out in the middle of the dangerous rescue.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Reply #13)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 08:26 PM

54. And me.

That idea is GENIUS! Kept the kids from panicking, which you do NOT want, especially in such tight confines!

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Response to calimary (Reply #54)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 09:45 PM

67. It is genius, because the kids were not actually diving.

Until this information came out - every report (including formal reports from the Thai goverment) indicated the boys would be diving. Apparently that is not what happened. They were wrapped up. snug as a bug, with breathing apparatus and handed off from one diver to another all the way through the cave.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #67)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 11:37 PM

77. Snug as a bug inna rug! 😊

I'm still thanking God for this.

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Response to sprinkleeninow (Reply #77)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 02:36 AM

88. Yes. It really was a genius solution. n/t

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Response to coti (Reply #98)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 08:56 PM

101. Great job thinking outside the box!

Not having been through those passages - but having been through many rocky crevasses - I was having trouble envisioning moving them out by any means other than by their own locomotion.

Elon Musk's early idea - of a kevlar-coated sack did sound interesting to me as a way to solve the need to keep the kids alert - but then he went to the mini-submarine idea (which, from the descriptions and images would not have made it around the tight turns. I don't think the people who designed it have ever been anywhere similar.)

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Response to BigmanPigman (Reply #13)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 09:01 PM

63. Actually.

I went into very tight spaces before, coached by experts. I was coached to look only where I was going and not look around. Hazards were identified ahead of time along with what I needed to do to get by them. It is possible without drugs, given that I am highly sensitive to being in close spaces, even being in a tight group of people gives me the willies. Would I do something like that again? Helllll noooo!

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 05:43 PM

18. Picture number one....

Best sleep that kids had in weeks I'd wager.

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 05:44 PM

19. This all still makes me cry.

Not just the boys rescue and Saman's loss of life. The beauty of the response from the workers on site and the rice growers that lost their crops, the world that watched, prayed then cheered.

Humanity at it's finest. I knew the world had it in her.

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 05:54 PM

21. They gave away the truth when they described the behavior of the boys once they arrived at the

hospital as in good spirits and hungry. If the boys had actually been awake through that arduous journey they would have been in significant emotional distress once they were freed.

It made so much sense to sedate them to protect them from emotional trauma as well as from the physical risk their potential anxiety and inexperience could have posed to them and their rescuers.

I think they went public now because reporters are likely to ask them how they felt about making such a treacherous journey. Now they know the children and the coach have no memory of the experience.

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:13 PM

23. I wish I could do this until Trump is gone.

Especially the bit about not remembering.

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Response to librechik (Reply #23)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:32 PM

37. Yes, but it would be a bit like waking up from a bad accident.

Last edited Wed Jul 11, 2018, 10:14 PM - Edit history (1)

You don’t remember what happened, but there is destruction all around you, and everything hurts.

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Response to MoonchildCA (Reply #37)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:52 PM

45. eesh, maybe not

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:15 PM

24. What a wonderful international effort!

They worked together to save the lives of these children.

Now let's see our government work together to reunite the refugee children with their moms and dads.

Why were they ever separated without due process?

When children are separated from their parents by our courts or because of a prison sentence, the parents can be informed about the whereabouts of their children and contact their children even from prison. They know their children are safe and being cared for. That is not the case with the Trump kidnappings where the parents and children are not reassured in a civilized way if separation is absolutely necessary

What in the world was the Trump administration thinking?

My husband, during and shortly after WWII, in a distant country in Europe, was taken from his mother and placed in a family farm up in the mountains far away from her (among other locations that were far from her). Every day, just a little tyke, he would secretly walk to the train station to wait for her. (He ultimately got caught and was in trouble for it.) His mother had not abandoned him but had to work and could not take him with her. There is more to the story than that, but I would rather not go into too many details here.

When I think of that little boy who is now my husband of many, many years, even now, tears well up in my eyes. Separating a child from a beloved parent is a cruel, unusual punishment not just for the parent who might or might not be convicted of a crime after a trial and due process, but most of all for the child.

Horrible, horrible, horrible.

I am very close to my children although they are grown. The cruelty of the Trump administration is unbelievable to me. It is especially horrible because Trump is so close to Ivanka. How could anyone in his administration dare to take children from their parents?

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:15 PM

27. Days before a DU'er suggested that...

They be sedated

They caught hell for that one

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Response to lame54 (Reply #27)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:40 PM

41. Just posted that before seeing your post

Read all the criticism right here.

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:16 PM

28. That is absolutely incredible

I was getting panic attacks just imagining those boys trying to swim that long distance in such a small space. These rescuers were brilliant.

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:22 PM

31. There MUST Be Some Way The Orange Buffoon Can Take Credit Here, Too!

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:23 PM

32. I was shocked when I heard the coach was only 25

He did an amazing job for someone so young.

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Response to nuxvomica (Reply #32)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 07:11 PM

50. He was raised by Buddhist monks after his parents died.

They taught him well. He has already lived a heck of a life, and I am happy to see that they're treating him as a hero. If that had happened here, there would be a lynch mob waiting for him, along with a zillion lawyers for people wanting to sue him.

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Response to GoCubsGo (Reply #50)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 08:53 PM

61. IMHO, he was irresponsible and...

.... responsible for the death of one diver, as well as an immense amount of unnecessary pain and suffering. The cave was clearly marked as dangerous beyond a point and he lead those kids beyond it. Totally unexcusable.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #61)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 08:59 PM

62. Monday morning quarterbacks are always correct! nt

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Response to USALiberal (Reply #62)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 09:05 PM

64. It isn't very hard to make....

..... the right call here. if the sign says don't go into the cave , you don' go in. Especially if you are the adult in charge of a group of kids. What he did was totally irresponsible and unexcusable .

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #61)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 08:43 AM

93. I suggest you take the time to read more about that area of Thailand and the circumstances.

It is totally irresponsible and inexcusable for you to jump on the coach like that without knowing the details. Would you say the same thing about a scout leader whose troop was caught in a flash flood in the American southwest? Let's wait for more information before jumping to such negative conclusions.

I wish I could find the post a DUer who had lived in that area of Thailand wrote a few days ago. Effectively shot down the finger wagging like yours.

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Response to Pacifist Patriot (Reply #93)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 09:28 PM

102. Why do you think.,,,

.... i haven't read about it?


...some chided Ekapol for leading the team into the cave. A large warning sign at the cave's entrance raises the risk of entering so close to monsoon season, they say, and he should have known better.

‘He loved them more than himself’: How a 25-year-old former monk kept the Thai soccer team alive
https://wapo.st/2lZjtSX



PARENTS tell their children to stay away from the notorious Tham Luang cave network in the north of Thailand. Right outside the entrance are signs warning visitors to not take the risk.

Locals know that during monsoon season, the cave system can rapidly flood with water — which is exactly what happened on June 23 when 12 boys and their soccer coach became stranded in the labyrinth.

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/friends-of-the-stranded-thai-soccer-team-claim-boys-ignored-warnings/news-story/5b275c2b688ace1ea0affdcd2c0bdf75



A sign at the entrance to the cave -- a popular tourist attraction -- warns of danger during the rainy season, which is just getting ...

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/27/asia/thai-football-team-trapped-cave-intl/index.html



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Response to Pacifist Patriot (Reply #93)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 10:25 PM

106. As for a "flash flood"....

.... this is MONSOON season in Thailand, and the Thai monsoon season cannot in any way be compared to a "flash flood" in Arizona or New Mexico. EVERYONE in Thailand knows and understands the monsoon season and its consequences.

And in answer your question, yes, as a Scout and a Scout leader, I would say the same thing about a Scout leader who allowed his troop to be caught in a flash flood.

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Response to nuxvomica (Reply #32)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 09:21 PM

65. An amazing job? What...

... did he do? He led those young boys, who he was responsible for, into a clearly marked dangerous cave. He imperiled thier lives, imperiled the rescuers , and even cost one his life. There is no excuse for the immense amount of pain and suffering he caused, let alone to be praised.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #65)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 11:38 PM

78. interesting avatar you are using.

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Response to Kali (Reply #78)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 09:33 PM

103. Why? What's the problem with it? nt

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #65)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 12:25 AM

81. There's been credible stories that he actually DID NOT 'lead' them there, he found them there

hours later when they didn't come home and parents phoned him, worried.

I still don't know the 100% truth, maybe that's been ironed out in the past couple days, and that's not the real story, but last I saw ... he was not with them when they went in.

Furthermore, the sign at the cave entrance with the warning on it said the danger started in like mid-late July ... this was still June.

Also, these kids 'played' around there like ALL THE TIME.

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Response to mr_lebowski (Reply #81)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 08:46 AM

94. I'm really disgusted in the jump to conclusion finger wagging.

We don't know the whole story yet, and by the accounts we do know a) the assistant coach did not lead them into the cave and b) it was a flash flood in an area locals regularly use for recreation.

How quick people are to judge without bothering to learn more. It's disheartening.

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Response to Pacifist Patriot (Reply #94)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 10:15 PM

105. You are confusing the HEAD coach...

You are confusing the head coach, Nopparat, who was not supervising the team at that time, and the assistant coach, Ekkapol, who WAS supervising the boys, and deliberately led them into the cave as a "rite of passage".

Nopparat Kathawong, the 37-year-old head coach of the Wild Boars, told The Washington Post he didn’t know where Ekkapol would be taking the team but he trusted them.

All Nopparat found when he made it to the entrance of the cave that night were the boys’ bikes and bags next to what triggered his worst fears — water pouring out from the opening.

“I screamed — ‘Ek! Ek! Ek!’ My body went completely cold,” he told The Washington Post.

https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/thai-soccer-team-set-out-on-teambuilding-exercise-that-turned-into-nightmare/news-story/5fb40b9137fe198e112897291d9892bf

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/he-loved-them-more-than-himself-how-a-25-year-old-former-monk-kept-the-thai-soccer-team-alive/2018/07/07/b4100076-815e-11e8-b3b5-b61896f90919_story.html


As far as a "flash flood" is concerned, this is MONSOON season in Thailand, and the monsoon season cannot be compared to or dismissed as a "flash flood". And EVERYONE in Thailand knows all about monsoon season - there is simply no excuse.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #105)

Fri Jul 13, 2018, 09:29 AM

110. There was one article that indicated the assistant coach found the bikes

and followed them into the cave to rescue them.

Family members raised the alarm later that day. Where were they? What exactly happened next is still to be resolved. Many belive their coach 25-year-old Ekapol Jantawong, a stateless orphan who shared their love of football, tthen went o the cave. Near the entrance, he found their bikes, a discovery that meant he had to go deep inside to try to locate them and bring them back.


https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/world/thai-cave-rescue-how-the-cave-nightmare-began-ng-b88889337z

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #110)

Fri Jul 13, 2018, 09:42 AM

112. Thanks....

..... if this were to have turned out to be true he would have been both blameless snd a hero.

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Response to mr_lebowski (Reply #81)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 10:05 PM

104. You are refering to the HEAD coach, not....

... the assistant coach (Ekkapol) who led them into to the cave. The HEAD coach reports...

Nopparat Kathawong, the 37-year-old head coach of the Wild Boars, told The Washington Post he didn’t know where Ekkapol would be taking the team but he trusted them.

All Nopparat found when he made it to the entrance of the cave that night were the boys’ bikes and bags next to what triggered his worst fears — water pouring out from the opening.

“I screamed — ‘Ek! Ek! Ek!’ My body went completely cold,” he told The Washington Post.

https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/thai-soccer-team-set-out-on-teambuilding-exercise-that-turned-into-nightmare/news-story/5fb40b9137fe198e112897291d9892bf

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/he-loved-them-more-than-himself-how-a-25-year-old-former-monk-kept-the-thai-soccer-team-alive/2018/07/07/b4100076-815e-11e8-b3b5-b61896f90919_story.html

As far as "mid-late" July goes - the danger is during the MONSOON season, and EVERYONE in Thailand knows and understands MONSOON season - the assistant coach had to have known full well it was MONSOON season and dangerous.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #104)

Fri Jul 13, 2018, 12:01 AM

107. The story I read said differently ... I paid attention to the names ...

And it also said there's a sign on the cave saying it's dangerous starting mid-July. Not gonna go try to find it cause I don't care enough.

Ek was a hero, even if he made a mistake, he more than made up for it, keeping all 12 boys alive as long as he did.

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Response to mr_lebowski (Reply #107)

Fri Jul 13, 2018, 08:45 AM

109. I'm with you. I know the difference between the head coach and the assistant coach as well.

And flash flooding from unusually early heavy rain in the monsoon season has featured prominently in the stories.

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Response to mr_lebowski (Reply #107)

Fri Jul 13, 2018, 09:36 AM

111. Quatrevingt-treize

Reminds me of an anacdote from Victor Hugo's Ninty Three


Meanwhile, at sea, a group of Royalist “Whites” are planning to land the Marquis de Lantenac, a Breton aristocrat whose leadership could transform the fortunes of the rebellion. While at sea, a sailor fails to properly secure his cannon, which rolls out of control and damages the ship. The sailor risks his life to secure the cannon and save their ship. Lantenac awards the man a medal for his bravery and then executes him (without trial) for failing in his duty.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninety-Three


Of course this dry description is nothing compared to Hugo's development of the incident.

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:24 PM

33. Smart call it seems.

It worked and likely preserved life.

What's the beef?

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Response to LincolnRossiter (Reply #33)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 08:36 PM

59. Welcome to DU, LincolnRossiter!

No beef from me! I think they made a brilliant decision. That was a LONG way out. These kids had already lived through an ordeal that would freak me out, but good, before even approaching a narrow, dark, murky, underwater tunnel and the smallest movement could cut a big gash in an arm or a leg from those too-close rocky edges. Had to be frightening! Especially since these rescuers and Navy Seal-level experts all knew that one of their own had died there only days earlier. When I read this, I was SO impressed! What an excellent - and EFFECTIVE - solution.

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Response to calimary (Reply #59)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 09:59 PM

68. Appreciate the welcome, and...

100% agree. Great result.

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:24 PM

34. At one of the press conferences, they said they gave them anti-anxiety meds..

..which I assume put some of them to sleep, given their condition. They might have given them versed, which is used for invasive med procedures and some surgeries. It's fast acting and short lasting, but best of all, it interferes with the memory process (only while it's in your system). They don't really need to have flashbacks of being pulled through those rocks.

I heard an interview with the former head of the British cave diving association in which he said that their inability to swim wasn't really an issue in terms of the rescue. It was all about reducing the chance of them panicking once they were underwater, slipping through those narrow passages.

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:32 PM

38. Real heroes all

My thoughts were with those boys and the outcome is better than expected. I would have needed more than a 5 mg Valium to venture into the abyss. Caves, except for Carlsbad Caverns, are places I would never go, dark, damp and scary, imo.

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:37 PM

39. A DUer received lots of criticism for suggesting this approach

Can't remember her/his name.

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Response to malaise (Reply #39)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:55 PM

46. To be fair to the DUer I don't think it was widely known that the doctor that was there


was not just a doctor but an anaesthetist and perhaps the only person in the world qualified to do scuba cave diving and monitor anaesthesia in a cave.

That kind of puts a different light on it. More about that doctor here:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210855959#post9

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Response to grantcart (Reply #46)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 07:08 PM

49. I posted on that great thread

That said the DUers suggestion was dismissed.

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Response to malaise (Reply #39)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:58 PM

47. applegrove

Last edited Wed Jul 11, 2018, 11:58 PM - Edit history (2)

It wasn't just lots of criticism, by which I mean that doesn't really capture the level of vitriol directed against her. There was an entire thread where she would make the point, and several people representing themselves as master divers would attack her on the issue on a post-by-post basis, claiming that her approach was utterly without basis.

Interestingly, she was right.

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Response to DarthDem (Reply #47)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 08:26 PM

55. Her name is applegrove and she is a sweetheart from Canada. n/t

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #55)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 11:18 PM

71. Agreed.


She is a sweetheart. Thanks for the correction. I've edited.

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Response to DarthDem (Reply #71)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 11:34 PM

76. Glad I could help!

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #55)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 12:38 AM

85. Takes one to know one!!!

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Response to DarthDem (Reply #47)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 09:28 PM

66. No, not really.

The discussion in the thread was about giving the boys mind altering drugs to keep them panicking while they dove to safety. Diving, at any time, but particuarly in these dangerous circumstances, with an impaired brain is foolhardy.

This rescue does not change that reality becuase these boys did not dive out. They were put into a state akin to twilight sleep specifically to prevent them from assisting - in the wrong way - in their rescue.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #66)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 11:21 PM

73. Yes, Really


What applegrove was suggesting and what ended up happening are very close to the same thing. And even if there's a technical distinction in the manner in which the boys were prepared, applegrove was FAR, FAR closer to the correct approach than at least three people berating her, post by post, and stating that she was way off base because of multiple years of stated master diving experience, etc.

The lesson is that sometimes people just need to make room for others' opinions. And unsolicited expert advice is sometimes anything but.

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Response to DarthDem (Reply #73)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 02:36 AM

87. They are not at all close ,

and it is not a techincal distinction.

If you are diving, you are responsible for yourself, responsible for hanging on to the guide rope, responsible for keeping your reg in your mouth - assisted by others, but you move yourself.

The rescue, as is now being described, did not involve the boys diving out. They were wearing a mask that permitted them to breathe underwater, but they were fully or almost fully sedated, and moved through the cave by others.

In the former (diving on their own volition), crystal clear thinking is absolutely necessary. One mistake by the potentially medicated person can mean the difference between life and death - not only for the boy, but for those around them he might harm by his mistake (or who might drown in an attempt to rescue him).

In the latter (being carried), as little thought as possible is critical. Any volitional act while the boy is being moved puts the boy, and both divers immediately at risk.

The previous thread was about the former, not the latter. My position has not changed on the wisdom of medicating the boys to prevent them from panicking while they are diving out of the cave. They weren't diving - the rescuers thought outside the box so the boys didn't have to dive. That makes all the difference in the world as to whether medication is appropriate.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #66)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 12:46 AM

86. Yes. I was talking about anti anxiety meds but I used the word drugs and

was not specific till later on in the thread that I meant specific to anxiety medicine. Yes I had no solution to the boys navigating themselves. Tandoming them with the front diver was brilliant as was wrapping them up like butterflies in a cocoon and walking/floating them out where they could was smart too. I was half right though I did not help my case by being vague initially. Important part is that this team of Thai and international experts looked at every problem from every angle and totally did away with the risks they could. I was just coincidentally out on a tangent having experienced both diving and meds for ptsd.

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Response to applegrove (Reply #86)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 02:40 AM

89. Anxiety medicine would still be contraindicated -

but for the genius that removed any need for the boys to do anything. And the more recent, apparently reliable, reports say they were actually sedated (unconscious or barely conscious). I suspect Versed, or something similar.

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Response to DarthDem (Reply #47)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 12:38 AM

84. They were following the NRA playbook. I didn't take those with the most vitriol

seriously.

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Response to applegrove (Reply #84)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 05:33 PM

99. Good For You


They were, shall we say, insistent.

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:51 PM

44. Click on the link & watch the video. It's amazing.

Those seals and all those workers were/are amazing. And the cargo they were carrying was precious cargo. All those young boys. Saved. And their young coach. What a wonderful ending.

Except for the one diver who died. So sad.

This was an amazing plan. Putting the boys to sleep & carrying them out...I was wondering how the boys would swim all that way in the murky water w/o panicking, and in their weak condition.

Amazing. Put a lump in my throat. (The U S sent some seals, too!)

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 08:39 PM

60. Boys not sedated

According to Thai PM. An Anxiolytic is a medication or other intervention that inhibits anxiety.

MAE SAI, Thailand — Thailand's prime minister says the 12 boys saved from a flooded cave were given an anti-anxiety medication to help with their rescue.

Asked at a weekly news conference Tuesday if the boys had been sedated, Prime Minister Prayuth Chan-ocha said, "Who would chloroform them? If they're chloroformed, how could they come out? It's called Anxiolytic, something to make them not excited, not stressed."
https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/thailand-cave-rescuetrapped-boys-given-anti-anxiety-drug-dangerous-dive-1666191

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Response to canetoad (Reply #60)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 04:05 AM

91. Anxiolytic is very general, it's still a tranquilizer.

I'm guessing they weren't completely unconscious that way if anything went wrong they'd struggle (natural instinct to struggle if air lines break) but they were in a very close to unconscious state. There are so many drugs that it could have been that I don't think I can make a guess.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #91)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 04:20 AM

92. And I've just read an article

That said they were sedated with ketamine.

OK, when I returned to the same article, they have deleted ketamine. I reckon if we wait a couple of days the accurate facts will emerge.


After days of speculation about how the boys, many of whom could not swim, navigated the escape route, a former Thai Navy SEAL diver broke the silence, revealing the boys were sedated and sleeping or partially-conscious as they were passed from diver-to-diver through the cave.

"Some of them were asleep, some of them were wiggling their fingers... (as if) groggy but they were breathing," Commander Chaiyananta Peeranarong told AFP.
https://www.theage.com.au/world/asia/the-operation-we-ll-never-forget-new-footage-of-the-thailand-cave-rescue-20180712-p4zqzv.html

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 10:29 PM

70. I assumed they'd be sedated: Far safer to put the pro's in charge.

Not fair to ask these boys to cooperate in such desperate, challenging, and lengthy procedures. I'd rather be sedated, myself.

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 11:19 PM

72. Brilliant all around. The Thais. Their international partners. They got together

Last edited Thu Jul 12, 2018, 01:07 AM - Edit history (1)

and mitigated the risks they could.

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 11:43 PM

79. Thank you, Demovictory. Wonderful post, wonderful info. to share. n/t

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 12:32 AM

82. I guess this is how they dealt with the narrow parts of the cave ... narrowed their profile!

If you don't have the tank on your BACK, but rather you're in a long stretcher, you could have the tank at your feet with long hoses leading to your regulator ... that way your entire profile can be made small enough in circumference that you don't ever have to remove the tanks from the boys ... to fit them through the thin openings ... FRIGGIN' GENIUS!

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 12:03 PM

95. You would have to sedate me

Bless the doctor who went in there with them.

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 01:48 PM

96. Goosebumps. n/t

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Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Fri Jul 13, 2018, 05:30 AM

108. Real heroes

bringing about a true miracle!

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