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Fri Jun 22, 2018, 04:58 PM

Some help please. A friend keeps bellyaching about how President Obama put kids in cages.

I never heard of that. My friend is on a real “whataboutism” rant. “Obama did it TOO!!!!”

Anybody know? I want to be able to refute this.

Thank you in advance.

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Reply Some help please. A friend keeps bellyaching about how President Obama put kids in cages. (Original post)
calimary Jun 2018 OP
C_U_L8R Jun 2018 #1
UncleTomsEvilBrother Jun 2018 #2
writes3000 Jun 2018 #3
MichMan Jun 2018 #10
Demsrule86 Jun 2018 #15
cooldude Jun 2018 #21
Demsrule86 Jun 2018 #27
0rganism Jun 2018 #33
Demsrule86 Jun 2018 #35
cooldude Jun 2018 #39
mercuryblues Jun 2018 #38
calimary Jul 2018 #45
still_one Jun 2018 #40
OKNancy Jun 2018 #4
smirkymonkey Jun 2018 #19
gibraltar72 Jun 2018 #5
byronius Jun 2018 #6
hurl Jun 2018 #9
virgogal Jun 2018 #7
Demsrule86 Jun 2018 #12
Post removed Jun 2018 #13
Demsrule86 Jun 2018 #16
DesertRat Jun 2018 #8
Demsrule86 Jun 2018 #11
pwb Jun 2018 #14
Ms. Toad Jun 2018 #30
hlthe2b Jun 2018 #17
Nevernose Jun 2018 #18
hunter Jun 2018 #20
Blue_Tires Jun 2018 #22
byronius Jun 2018 #23
uponit7771 Jun 2018 #24
Demsrule86 Jun 2018 #25
emulatorloo Jun 2018 #26
Va Lefty Jun 2018 #28
lunatica Jun 2018 #29
cyclonefence Jun 2018 #31
bdamomma Jun 2018 #32
0rganism Jun 2018 #34
calimary Jun 2018 #36
uponit7771 Jun 2018 #41
GoCubsGo Jun 2018 #37
Lee-Lee Jun 2018 #42
ck4829 Jun 2018 #43
oberliner Jun 2018 #44
calimary Jul 2018 #46
dembotoz Jul 2018 #47

Response to calimary (Original post)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 05:00 PM

1. And your friend supposedly knew that and did nothing??

Is he a Nazi?

(he may or may not be.. but clearly he's full of shit)

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Response to calimary (Original post)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 05:03 PM

2. Here ya' go...

...oddly, it was right on Yahoo's! homepage: https://www.yahoo.com/news/not-real-news-obama-didnt-separate-90-000-164448924.html


Obama's administration detained children that were unaccompanied. He never split the families up.

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Response to writes3000 (Reply #3)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 05:47 PM

10. Unfortunately, this link shows your friend wasn't wrong



Even though the families were not separated, it does show that minors were kept in the same type of "cages"


You might not want to show him this


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Response to MichMan (Reply #10)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 05:54 PM

15. Temporary before finding other places...different thing entirely...these were unacompanied minors...

back then...they were there than a day mostly. so it is nothing like kidnapping kids and taking them away from families... babies and toddlers....and those who say it is only help the GOP, and the asking for a friend crap is so transparent...even in the age of Trump, some still go after Pres. Obama...hard to believe.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #15)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 06:36 PM

21. Even though that is the case,

 

unfortunately some of the photos being circulated of migrant children in cages during Obama's presidency look exactly like the photos of migrant children put in cages by Trump. Even though the migrant children put in cages during Obama's presidency were unaccompanied minors, it's going to be very hard to argue that Obama didn't put migrant children in cages.

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Response to cooldude (Reply #21)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 07:37 PM

27. It is the case...and we can certainly explain the differences...and Obama is a Democrat.

This is a Democratic site. The system has been broken for years... but no one has ever done what Trump did;Bush didn't do it either...and those who try to equate Obama to this policy shouldn't even be here really...not saying you.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #27)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 09:04 PM

33. if you're explaining, you're losing

just something to remember when entering into these kinds of discussions with Trumpsters

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Response to 0rganism (Reply #33)

Sat Jun 23, 2018, 07:54 AM

35. I don't agree with that...no one is perfect and when the GOP is lying you have to explain.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #27)

Wed Jun 27, 2018, 02:21 PM

39. Sorry, I should have said

 

"even though that is the case" instead of "that may be the case" because I was really saying it is the case but...

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Response to cooldude (Reply #21)

Sun Jun 24, 2018, 02:54 PM

38. A wave of

UNAACOMPANIED minors crossed the border. Which means their parents were not with them. They were coming in faster than they could be placed with family already in the US or social services programs.

So yes, they were placed in the cages for a brief period of time, until they could be placed. They were not taken from their parents and placed in cages with no end in sight.

Trump is creating unaccompanied minors by taking them away from their parents for the sole reason of cruelty.


During the Obama years children that came in with their parents, stayed with their parents.

Edited in:

they stayed in temporary shelters for 72 hours, were then moved to ORR(Office of Refugee Resettlement) Where the average stay was 45 days.

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/immigration/news/2014/06/18/92056/5-things-you-need-to-know-about-the-unaccompanied-minors-crisis/

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Response to cooldude (Reply #21)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 02:37 PM

45. Welcome to DU, cooldude.

Thanks for this. And the facts aren't terribly helpful because you have to take the time to explain them. If you're explaining, you're already losing. And nobody wants to bother with any explanation. The only thing that seems to help is the quick hit.

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Response to MichMan (Reply #10)

Fri Jun 29, 2018, 04:51 AM

40. no it doesn't. Trump's policy and intention was to separate children from their parents

What happened under the Obama, bush, and previous administrations was the parents of these unaccompanied children were already in the United States, and the goal was to get the kids out of the border patrol authority, put them in temporary shelters, and connect them with their parents as fast possible.

In other words, it was to UNITE the Children with their parents. The Trump administration separated children from their parents, with NO intention of uniting them with their parents.

Another false equivlency taken out of context, that unless someone reads the full context would be left with an intentionally misleading assumption, which I suspect is no coincidence to help further the R/W propaganda machine


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Response to OKNancy (Reply #4)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 06:20 PM

19. +1000

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Response to calimary (Original post)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 05:06 PM

5. Get better "friends".

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Response to calimary (Original post)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 05:10 PM

6. Snopes posts it as True -- But.

It wasn't Obama -- there were holes in the HHS system for generations, kept there by the GOP's refusal to fix the problem. As always, the GOP loves to damage government and then point to it as being unworkable -- this is a case in point. There was no system in place for verifying identity, on purpose. 'Obama did it' is the most ridiculously disingenuous statement that could be made by racists seeking to defer blame for their own racist actions.

I.E. -- they're lying.

Plus, there were numerous investigations and criminal proceedings that erupted over this single incident. Soooo -- waiting for that in this case, right?

In July 2015, the U.S. Department of Justice indicted a ring of traffickers lead by Aroldo Castillo-Serrano and accused them of smuggling children into the United States. They were also accused of lying to Health and Human Services’ Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR) by posing as relatives in order to gain custody of children in its care and use them for forced labor in Marion, a city north of Columbus. The federal indictment, filed in U.S. district court in Ohio accuses Castillo-Serrano and his conspirators of forcing the children to live in squalid trailers and work six or seven 12-hour days a week, using threats and physical violence as coercion.

According to the Justice Department, Castillo-Serrano pleaded guilty in August 2015 to counts related to trafficking. He was sentenced to more than 15 years in prison and ordered to pay restitution to the victims.

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Response to byronius (Reply #6)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 05:28 PM

9. Great point

"As always, the GOP loves to damage government and then point to it as being unworkable"

This is SO true. The Democrats need to package this one message and pound it into the public dialog on every issue, in every debate. Republicans have been getting away with this for WAY too long.

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Response to calimary (Original post)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 05:14 PM

7. I don't know about cages but

 

the San Diego ACLU did a report showing abuses of immigrant children going back into Obama's administration-------I also do not recall seeing much uproar over it.

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Response to virgogal (Reply #7)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 05:50 PM

12. That is untrue...it was a big deal...try google.

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Response to virgogal (Reply #7)


Response to Post removed (Reply #13)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 05:58 PM

16. More likely some people feel the need to attack a great Democratic president who was hamstrung by

the GOP for six years because the left left green slimes stabbed him in the back in 10. and those sort are the ones that complain the loudest...we shouldn't help Trump by saying it was the same thing because it sure as hell wasn't and some could very well sentence kids to a miserable number of years in detention or even death if this continues... and this gives Trump cover. That is all.

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Response to calimary (Original post)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 05:24 PM

8. Hope this helps:

The policy to separate parents and children is new and was instituted on 4/6/2018. It was the brainchild of John Kelly and Stephen Miller to serve as a deterrent for undocumented immigration, approved by Trump, and adopted by Sessions. Prior administrations detained migrant families, but didn’t have a practice of forcibly separating parents from their children unless the adults were deemed unfit.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1049751/download?utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/was-law-separate-families-passed-1997/

Trump's assertion that he hates this policy but has no choice but to separate the parents from their children, because the Democrats "gave us this law" is false and nothing more than propaganda designed to compel negotiation on bad policy. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-democrats-us-border-migrant-families-children-parents-mexico-separate-a8401521.html

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Response to calimary (Original post)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 05:49 PM

11. No President did not put kids in cages...families were no separated.

And you could google this by the way...

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Response to calimary (Original post)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 05:51 PM

14. I don't think it was people seeking asylum?

Think they illegally crossed the border. Big difference.

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Response to pwb (Reply #14)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 08:50 PM

30. most of those separated by Trump's policy are also seeking asylum.

They are crossing between border points, so they are entering the country illegally (a misdemeanor - even if they ultimately seek asylym).

The zero tolerance policy is about prosecuting all illegal border crossings, regardless of the reason they crossed the border.

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Response to calimary (Original post)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 06:00 PM

17. Jeh Johnson was Homeland Security Chief under Obama. He's been all over CNN/NBC/MSNBC

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Response to calimary (Original post)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 06:18 PM

18. I don't think that's whataboutism

Even if it were 100% true, your friend wasn't using a "whataboutism." She was pointing out (hypothetical) hypocrisy.

Whataboutisms are usually when people either place the supposed hypocrisy in an irrelevant time/place. For instance, "Yeah, most racists today are Republicans, but it was Democrats who supported slavery and started the KKK." That's a fallacy of logic that is currently in vogue to refer to as "whataboutism."

The more obvious example of a whataboutism is changing the subject entirely, or keeping the very broadest possible conceptual topic, but then alleging hypocrisy. As in: "Trump might still making shady business deals, but what about the Marc Rich pardon?" Or the classic: "So what if everyone on Trump's team tried to commit treason at the same time? What about Hillary's emails!?!"

The former example of the previous paragraph compares a guy who's essentially a mob boss (but born into power and therefore his privilege have always been protected) to white trash kid from Possum Crotch Arkansas who got cheating on a test (not good, but hardly prison-worthy, because politics is gross and disgusting). The latter example is the origin of the euphemism, in that the people who won the election and who did their goddamned best to commit treason are exonerated, while a career civil servant who has been investigated dozens of times over thirty years and no one has ever, not one single time, found her to have done anything illegal, and therefore Democrats are hypocrites.

(We talked about "whataboutisms" and "mansplaining" at length over Father's Day lunch)

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Response to calimary (Original post)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 06:22 PM

20. I'd discourage them from voting.


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Response to calimary (Original post)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 06:38 PM

22. Obama's not the president anymore

so the buck stops on Donnie's desk... Tell your friend to quit changing the subject from the topic at hand...

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Response to calimary (Original post)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 06:51 PM

23. Try this one: "So you're saying that Trump is just as bad as Obama? My god!"

Won't work, nothing works, but it'll get the squirrel cage running for a few more seconds to try to spin that one.

"So you're saying they're both bad presidents who should go to prison and die for their crimes against children?"

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Response to calimary (Original post)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 07:10 PM

24. Cages is a red herring it's the kidnapping that's the issue, don't let then change the subject

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Response to calimary (Original post)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 07:24 PM

25. 100,000 people kept prisoner by the Navy...concentration camps and you want to talk about Obama...

Really.

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Response to calimary (Original post)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 07:24 PM

26. Why is your friend so determined to give Trump a free pass?

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Response to calimary (Original post)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 07:41 PM

28. Some people are "unreachable".Save your breath.

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Response to calimary (Original post)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 07:45 PM

29. Calimary

Just stop trying to prove this person wrong because it only puts you on the losing defensive.

Attack this person on their beliefs.

What I do is ask them why they think it’s OK for Trump to do it if they’re against this, and without taking a breath go on to say that if they do think it’s OK what does that say about them. Or that is says a lot of what kind of a person they are would cage children.

There is no law that says we had to agree with everything Obama did. There’s no reason to defend everything he did.

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Response to calimary (Original post)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 08:53 PM

31. "I don't know whether children were put in cages during the Obama Administration

or not. If I had known Obama was doing this, I would have protested against it. Obama isn't the president now, so it doesn't matter whether he did it or not. Trump is president, and he is doing it, and he must stop."

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Response to calimary (Original post)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 09:00 PM

32. Ask for facts to back up

that asinine claim. Is the person a FOX viewer if they are case closed.

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Response to calimary (Original post)

Fri Jun 22, 2018, 09:13 PM

34. response depends a lot on context of the conversation

is this conversation private (phone, email only to you, snail mail) or public (forum, facebook, twitter, email with many cc's, etc.)? makes a big difference.

if private, you might be able to address the main point plus a few of the whatabouts with research. don't let your "friend" change the subject.

if this conversation is public, your "friend" is NOT in a space where you can make inroads. i recommend tailoring any response for observers of your conversation rather than your "friend".

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Response to calimary (Original post)

Sun Jun 24, 2018, 02:23 PM

36. It's been a couple of days and I just wanted to thank everybody who responded.

I want to give all this the time to read and check the links and all, which is why I haven't responded til now.

LOTS to learn and think about! And I appreciate this, GREATLY!

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Response to calimary (Reply #36)

Fri Jun 29, 2018, 06:42 AM

41. Obama admin didn't have a no exception policy on JAILING kids in cages. Kids were there after influx

... of them coming from SA.

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Response to calimary (Original post)

Sun Jun 24, 2018, 02:30 PM

37. Two words: PROVE IT!

Instead of you refuting it, you need to get them put up the evidence proving their claims. Every day that they don't provide that evidence, and they won't, since it doesn't exist, you can just say, "I'm still waiting. Put up or shut up." And, when they put up nonsense that doesn't prove anything, be sure to call them out on it, and explain to them why it's not evidence of their claim. They made the claim. It's up to them to back it up, not you.

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Response to calimary (Original post)

Fri Jun 29, 2018, 07:54 AM

42. Essentially he is right, and wrong

 

The “cages” are the holding cells used at the processing centers. Every person caught crossing the border illegally goes to these centers. And that is true now, was true in the Obama Administration, and was true in the Bush administration and so on...

What has changed is what happens from there. The Obama administration policy was unaccompanied minors went to the DHHS shelters while their cases were handled. Adults were typically detained and run through the system and either granted asylum and released in the US or deported, with the vast majority deported. If a family unit was caught crossing illegally, that is a child with a parent, they still went to these same “cages” at processing centers but then they were given a date for an immigration hearing and released so the family was not split. The illegal entry was handled as a civil case instead of criminal.

This did create a bit of a double standard on how people were treated. If you had a minor with you it was almost certain you would be released into the US after being caught instead of detained or rapidly deported.

The change is that now these “family units” are not being released with a hearing date and a promise to appear. Instead the parents are all being charged criminally, just as they likely would be if they didn’t have kids with them. Well if you are arrested that makes your kids now “unaccompanied” so now they get treated the same as minors who actually crossed unaccompanied.

So your friend is mostly right- the so-called “cages” are holding cells that are in fact being used the exact same as they always were. What has changed is the splitting of families after they leave these processing centers that previously wouldn’t have been split up.

The pushing of the “cages” lines was probably a mistake by our side. While it makes for an attention grabbing sensational opening, it really is a criticism of the exact same policies and procedures and facilities used in years past also, and does open critics of current policy up to claims of hypocrisy or fake outrage when they go after that part of it. The focus always should have been on what actually changed, and that is the policy of locking up adults who cross with children instead of releasing them as a family into the US with a court date.

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Response to calimary (Original post)

Fri Jun 29, 2018, 08:05 AM

43. They need to keep the lies straight. I've heard Dubya and Clinton blamed too.

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Response to calimary (Original post)

Fri Jun 29, 2018, 08:10 AM

44. The cage-like detention centers existed during the Obama presidency

 

In 2014, there was a surge of unaccompanied minors who attempted to cross the border and many of them were held in such facilities for (generally) a short period of time. There were photos of those children posted on social media recently, and some folks thought they depicted current conditions, when, in reality, they were from 2014.

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Response to calimary (Original post)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 02:53 PM

46. WOW, you guys - THANK YOU!

Yes, I'm SHOUTING!

I appreciate this more than even all-caps can express! Thanks SO much for all this info! I finally had some time to do you all the honor and courtesy of reading through this, carefully. Notes made on the links. I REALLY appreciate this.

Knowledge indeed IS power.

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Response to calimary (Original post)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 03:08 PM

47. They claim Obama put kids in cages and wants open borders

How do u do both at same time

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