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Wed Jun 6, 2018, 04:13 PM

 

Do you want Bernie supporters to vote for Democrats in November?

Do you think their votes would help put Democratic candidates over the top?

What do you think can be done to persuade them to vote for Democrats?

Would you prefer they a) not vote, or b) vote for third party candidates?

240 replies, 7123 views

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Reply Do you want Bernie supporters to vote for Democrats in November? (Original post)
Sophia4 Jun 2018 OP
Fullduplexxx Jun 2018 #1
Blue_true Jun 2018 #25
Eliot Rosewater Jun 2018 #30
R B Garr Jun 2018 #36
Eliot Rosewater Jun 2018 #43
lunamagica Jun 2018 #49
Hortensis Jun 2018 #191
Kahuna7 Jun 2018 #77
mcar Jun 2018 #2
mythology Jun 2018 #39
mcar Jun 2018 #45
R B Garr Jun 2018 #48
EffieBlack Jun 2018 #76
yardwork Jun 2018 #81
tazkcmo Jun 2018 #46
Blue_Tires Jun 2018 #67
brush Jun 2018 #105
Post removed Jun 2018 #228
brush Jun 2018 #231
Demsrule86 Jun 2018 #137
rockfordfile Jun 2018 #222
George II Jun 2018 #95
JI7 Jun 2018 #3
Hamlette Jun 2018 #4
karynnj Jun 2018 #63
NurseJackie Jun 2018 #66
lapucelle Jun 2018 #156
karynnj Jun 2018 #160
lapucelle Jun 2018 #162
karynnj Jun 2018 #165
lapucelle Jun 2018 #169
ehrnst Jun 2018 #194
karynnj Jun 2018 #199
lapucelle Jun 2018 #204
ucrdem Jun 2018 #205
karynnj Jun 2018 #207
R B Garr Jun 2018 #220
karynnj Jun 2018 #221
MrsCoffee Jun 2018 #223
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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 04:16 PM

1. If they still need to be persuaded there isnt anything you can do

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Response to Fullduplexxx (Reply #1)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 04:59 PM

25. I agree, if they still have to be persuaded, we are better off wasting no time on them. nt

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #25)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:13 PM

30. The familiar blackmail, been there , done that, I wish these people would go away.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #30)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:16 PM

36. It's perpetual. It's my understanding this OP refused to vote for Hillary,

but she can correct me if I'm wrong. On some level, they must be okay with Trump since they know that is the consequence.

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #36)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:21 PM

43. I knew there was a reason I didnt ever respond to them

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #30)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:29 PM

49. If that is true, why is she allowed to post here? I thought that according to the TOS, you had to

vote for the Democratic nominee during the '16 presidential election.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #30)

Fri Jun 8, 2018, 04:32 AM

191. :). 12% did, to Trump. Wish THOSE would stay away.

For all this noise and quarreling, though, the OP reflects a silly posit. Principled people vote their principles. No normal DUer is going to vote to let Republicans put frightened children in cages because of stupid quarreling on a forum.

Those who would, who voted for Trump or third party, are not us. By definition.

Those studies, for instance, that show @12% of Sanders voters voted Trump in 2016 also show they were never really committed Democrats in the first place, and some not Democrats at all. Their main reason for betraying their claimed Sanders principles was racial animus, and who doubts that misogyny and gender issues were involved also? That's why, whenever we identify those sneaking back to try to cause trouble here, we sweep them back out again.

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Response to Fullduplexxx (Reply #1)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 06:31 PM

77. This. nt

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 04:17 PM

2. Why would Bernie supporters not vote for Democrats in November?

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Response to mcar (Reply #2)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:19 PM

39. I'm not a Sanders supporter (nor was I a Clinton primary supporter)

 

but the behavior of people here towards Sanders and loosely affiliated groups is rather petulant. How many threads last night did we get crowing about how Our Revolution or Sanders himself had a bad night? While I'm not going to let boorish behavior of supporters push me away from voting, I certainly don't think it helps encourage people to vote Democratic. Being a sore winner is kind of embarrassing in my opinion.

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Response to mythology (Reply #39)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:22 PM

45. So they won't vote against a dictator Nazi because some on the internet were mean to them?

That sounds mature.

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Response to mcar (Reply #45)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:28 PM

48. Yeah, Democrats celebrating Democrats winning is such a threat to some.

People need to be stifled and mourn the failure of those who want to overthrow from within. No thanks.

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Response to mcar (Reply #45)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 06:29 PM

76. Really

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Response to mcar (Reply #45)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 06:39 PM

81. Sounds like Jane Sanders.

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Response to mythology (Reply #39)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:25 PM

46. Ah, I get it.

It's about being butt hurt.

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Response to mythology (Reply #39)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 06:03 PM

67. Your concern is noted

Please deliver this same lecture to the Sanderstans on Twitter and see what kind of reaction you get...

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Response to mythology (Reply #39)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 08:05 PM

105. Really? How about them being sore losers who insist on dividing themselves...

from the party? If they haven't figured out by now that the worse Dem is ten times better than the best repug, we don't need their "maybe I'll think about voting for the Dems, or maybe I'll vote third party or stay home/you got a nice party there it'd be ashamed if something happened to it" threats.

Either start a third party and leave us alone or get behind Dem candidates to defeat these traitor repugs in November.

There's no time for anything else.

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Response to brush (Reply #105)


Response to Post removed (Reply #228)

Thu Jun 14, 2018, 10:28 AM

231. You're so uninformed it's ridiculous. Winger Tweeden was put up to that...

by repug dirty trickster Roger Stone and Hannity because of that gag photo she had from that USO tour (his hands were not touching her. You can see from the cast shadows).

And who was she to talk about groping someone when photos surfaced of her on that same tour grabbing the ass of a male guitar player on stage in front of an audience.

Pls get better informed.

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Response to mythology (Reply #39)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 12:55 PM

137. People will either vote Democratic or help elect Republicans...and that is a fact.

I a sorry...anyone who didn't vote Clinton can fuck off. If the OP doesn't say she voted for the Democratic nominee than I am putting her on ignore especially after a post like this where she is making what feels like a threat to me.

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Response to mythology (Reply #39)

Wed Jun 13, 2018, 02:48 PM

222. You sure sound like a Sanders supporter.

Sanders has earned that "behavior". Don't blame Americans for the way they see/feel about Sanders.

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Response to mcar (Reply #2)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 07:24 PM

95. I can think of a couple of reasons.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 04:17 PM

3. Why do they need to be persuaded ? Do they not have positions beliers ideas etc

That they vote on ?

Which candidate do they need to be persuaded to vote for ?

Do they need to be persuaded to vote for newsom over cox ?

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 04:18 PM

4. We have made ourselves crazy trying to get them to vote for us

and it ends up with people pissed off . . .on both sides.

If they do not want to vote for us there is nothing I can do about it. And each time we get burned by that faction (Greens voting for Nader in 2000, Bernie supporters voting for someone other than Hillary etc) I become less welcoming. If they can't figure out why, I have no idea what to do.

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Response to Hamlette (Reply #4)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:56 PM

63. A lower percent of Sanders primary voters voted for Trump than Clinton 2008 voters voted for McCain

Note that this is actually surprising because Sanders attracted many people not aligned with the Democratic party where Clinton was a mainstream Democrat!

It is likely that more people, who either would not have voted or voted third party had there been no Sanders run voted for Hillary than Sanders voters who were Democrats fell away when he lost.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #63)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 06:02 PM

66. ...

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Response to karynnj (Reply #63)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 05:39 PM

156. Do you have a source for that data? N/T

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #156)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 06:08 PM

160. Yes - This article speaks of multiple studies for 2016 and 2008

Nearly double the percent of Bernie voters who voted for Trump were Clinton voters who voted for McCain. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/08/24/did-enough-bernie-sanders-supporters-vote-for-trump-to-cost-clinton-the-election/?utm_term=.387f755fdfa0

What these studies can not assess is the number of people who would not have registered or voted if not for Bernie recruiting them. In addition, many Sanders voters might not have even considered Clinton and voted for her because HE made that case.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #160)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 06:28 PM

162. The analysis of the impact is interesting.

"...a lot depends on the exact number of Sanders supporters who did not vote for [Clinton].

Schaffner generated some state-level estimates, which G. Elliott Morris quickly noted were large enough to exceed Trump’s margin of victory in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania.

Even if we assume that the overall percentage of Sanders supporters who voted for Trump was 6 percent and not 12 percent, and assume therefore that we can cut every state estimate in half, the estimated number of Sanders-Trump voters would still exceed Trump’s margin of victory".

As for your point

"What these studies can not assess is the number of people who would not have registered or voted if not for Bernie recruiting them."

equally unknowable is whether or not this actually occurred, and, if it did, whether or not these were the Sanders to Trump voters who gave him his margin of victory.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #162)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 06:57 PM

165. The WP analysis there completely ignores the impacts that I spoke of

I know of no study that investigated them, but I know from stories that they do exist. It was also mentioned in many primary stories. Sanders appealed to many who had not recently (or ever in some cases) voted. He also got the votes of many who were not normally Democrats. In addition, he did get many traditionally Democratic votes.

I KNOW there were Sanders voters, who were already unlikely to vote for Clinton well before they ever heard of Bernie. Bernie actually convinced many of them to vote for Clinton. You would need to net those Clinton voters out.

In addition, Sanders did not OWN everyone who voted for him. As far back as the NH primary, reporters were surprised that there were many vacillating between voting in the Democratic primary for Sanders or the Republican one for Trump. If Sanders never ran, these would be Trump voters -- not Clinton voters. By the way, many VT Sanders supporters went to NH and used THEIR primary information to try to win many votes for Clinton.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #165)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 07:05 PM

169. Anecdotal, personal experience is not data.

Here's what the experts had to say according to your source

"Schaffner generated some state-level estimates, which G. Elliott Morris quickly noted were large enough to exceed Trump’s margin of victory in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania.

Even if we assume that the overall percentage of Sanders supporters who voted for Trump was 6 percent and not 12 percent, and assume therefore that we can cut every state estimate in half, the estimated number of Sanders-Trump voters would still exceed Trump’s margin of victory."

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #169)

Fri Jun 8, 2018, 06:14 AM

194. +1000 (nt)

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #169)

Fri Jun 8, 2018, 08:46 AM

199. You ignore the fact that more of Clinton voters voted for Mccain - which you questioned

You ignore that I said there were no studies on the issues I brought up. As a person who did statistical analysis for 2 decades at Bell Labs/AT&T, I assure you I know that simply articulating other possible factors is not a study. However, that does not mean that they did not exist or that they were insignificant. They were just not analyzed as I said.

However, there were many articles during the primary season noting that there were independents who rejected both Clinton and the mainstream Republicans, telling reporters they were choosing whether to vote for Sanders or Trump. Here is one - https://www.cnn.com/2016/02/08/politics/new-hampshire-primary-independent-voters/index.html

Not having studies showing that 1) some Sanders primary voters were never going to vote for Clinton - even if Sanders never ran or 2) that Sanders outreach in support of Clinton did save some Sanders voters for her does not mean that neither of these things happened -- just that no one has quantified it.

What the WP article is answering in your quote is the answer to a very simple question - if all Sanders primary voters had voted for Clinton, would she have won. In fact, the margins of victories in many states were small enough to state that was true. That quote does not rule out that some Sanders/Trump voters would never have been Clinton voters or that Sanders did not "grow" the Clinton base.


But, let the experts address just some Sanders/Clinton/Trump issues. Here is a more detailed discussion between those analysts and another analyst.


In an interview, Schaffner noted that in an election this close, any number of voting blocs could have proved decisive. And the analysis certainly doesn’t necessarily prove Sanders would have won — Schaffner also found that 34 percent of John Kasich’s GOP primary supporters backed Clinton in the general; perhaps more would have stayed in the Republican camp had Sanders been the Democrats’ nominee, or perhaps fewer of Hillary Clinton’s voters would have voted for Sanders. Then again, it also suggests some voters were in Sanders’s reach that were out of Clinton’s.

<snip>

One piece of this that’s important to keep in context is that you always see this kind of defection between a primary and a general election. In 2008, you saw a lot of Hillary Clinton voters who ended up backing John McCain — so it's not abnormal to see this kind of thing. And more of them did so in 2008 than this time. [15 percent of Clinton’s 2008 voters in the primary supported McCain in that year’s general election.] Although given the candidates this time versus in 2008, it may have been surprising to see even this rate of defection.

The thing that really stood out to me is that a lot of these people who voted for Sanders — and then Trump — don't look like modern day Democrats. So you saw a lot fewer of them actually identify as Democrats than your normal Sanders voter; and, even more striking, they seem to have views on racial issues that are far more conservative than your typical Democrat.

<snip>
Of the ones that switched to Trump, only about 25 percent also voted for a Democratic candidate for Congress. And we do have a little bit about what they did in 2012 — it looks like they were split roughly evenly, 50-50, between Obama and Romney. So these appear to be people who are trending out of the Democratic Party.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/24/16194086/bernie-trump-voters-study

Note - that discussion does NOT look at whether Sanders successfully got people to vote for Clinton who otherwise wouldn't. The reason is that the data likely does not include the information to answer that. (ie they likely did not ask in the primary period if they would support Clinton if she won. Although had they done that, it would likely overstate the impact of Sanders.)

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Response to karynnj (Reply #199)

Fri Jun 8, 2018, 10:26 AM

204. I'm not ignoring any facts.

Here's what your source says:

Even if we assume that the overall percentage of Sanders supporters who voted for Trump was 6 percent and not 12 percent, and assume therefore that we can cut every state estimate in half, the estimated number of Sanders-Trump voters would still exceed Trump’s margin of victory.


According to your source, the impact of the Clinton to McCain voter was negligible in 2008. Even if the numbers or percentages were greater than those of the Sanders to Trump voter, Obama still won the presidency.

According to your source, the Sanders to Trump voter gave Trump his margin of victory. According to your source, it was the Sanders to Trump voter who kept a Democrat out of the White House, put a megalomaniac in office, and placed federal judgeships and the Supreme Court in conservative hands for a generation. According to your source, the impact of the Sanders to Trump voter in 2016 was devastating.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/08/24/did-enough-bernie-sanders-supporters-vote-for-trump-to-cost-clinton-the-election/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.ff81c4d2e7ca

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #204)

Fri Jun 8, 2018, 10:33 AM

205. +1

It doesn't get any clearer than that.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #204)

Fri Jun 8, 2018, 10:50 AM

207. However that does not mean that had Sanders not run, that Hillary Clinton would have won ..

or even gotten more votes.

The quote is only saying that if all the people who voted for Sanders in the primary voted for Clinton, she would have won - which I completely agree with. The fact is you could also take the Obama 2008 or 2012 voter/Trump and make exactly the same point. It is also possible that you could look at the fact that a lower percent POC turned out to vote in 2016 than in the Obama years -- and most of those missing votes would have gone to Clinton.

However, what their deeper analysis shows is that the small portion of Sanders voters who voted for Trump in the general also voted for the Republicans down ballot. Note that they also identified as conservative. These were NOT voters that were EVER likely to vote for Clinton ... and they ignored Bernie Sanders' request that they do so. It is no more Sanders' fault that all of his supporters did not follow his advice than that all Clinton's did not follow her advice in 2008. Neither controlled the people who voted for them. That Obama still won does not change that a significant number of Clinton primary voters worked against that.

What you did NOT prove is that the Sanders run had a negative effect on the number of votes for Clinton in the critical states. That is a more complex issue than whether the number of Sanders to Trump voters was higher than the victory margin.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #207)

Wed Jun 13, 2018, 02:01 PM

220. The whole premise of the Mueller investigations is that Sanders and Trump

were helped to harm Hillary by demonizing her. Trump copied Sanders' attacks, which is why both campaigns were promoted by the Russians -- to harm Hillary. Of course Sanders voters who turned away from Hillary cost the election. Whether they voted for Trump instead or voted for Stein (as the OP has admitted to...) then that was a lost vote for Hillary. It only took about 75,000 nationally.

You can't trot out one-sided and incomplete analysis that does not incorporate facts we now have. Making yourself feel better by trying to hide behind some meaningless drivel about 2008 and self-serving What About Clinton Voters Eight Years Ago doesn't stop the facts we know now. Read the Mueller indictments. That will set you straight and you will see what Hillary was up against. Foreign attacks, RW attacks and dishonest attacks from the left. Nothing in 2008 was anything -- ANYTHING -- like it. It's time to join reality and learn from it.

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #220)

Wed Jun 13, 2018, 02:35 PM

221. That is not the premise of the Mueller investigation

AT this point, the Mueller investigation is not complete and Mueller has been incredibly disciplined. What you are likely referring to is that the Russian troll farm targeted Hillary Clinton in both the primary and the general election. You are being very hypocritical in terms of demanding valid analyses. The number of voters in the close states lost that were swayed to either not vote for Clinton or to vote for Trump because of the trolls has not been estimated by anyone. Instead, it has been done essentially by a wave of hands - (ie the margin was small, many people got those messages, therefore it COULD (which morphs to did) have made the difference.

Mueller has no need to PROVE the trolls worked -- just that Russia authorized that effort. If he can additionally prove that the Trump campaign knew of that effort and did not alert the FBI -- they colluded with Russia. This is true whether of not the effort shifted a single vote.

What I was speaking of in reference to 2008 and any earlier contest were the attacks from Sanders himself. Sanders' attacks were the valid attacks any Democrat would have made on Clinton. O'Malley actually raised most of them before Sanders did. NONE of them were out of bounds and they did go to real differences between HRC and Sanders. As I said, the Republicans have often repeated primary campaign attacks.

Not to mention, cut the idiotic "make yourself better" nonsense. I supported Clinton in the general election and would have preferred a different choice in the primaries. I was not a fan of either Sanders or Clinton.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #221)

Wed Jun 13, 2018, 02:50 PM

223. Two words. Tad Devine.

'Nuff said about why people feel the way they do about Russia helping Bernie.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #221)

Wed Jun 13, 2018, 06:10 PM

224. LOL, no. That *IS* the subject of the Mueller investigations, and they

don't have to be completed to know what they are about. Don't worry, though, you are not the first one to completely overlook the facts we have right in front of us in favor of theorizing everything away to justify some really nasty and over the top propaganda about our candidate. Probably lots of people would like do-overs, including James Comey types -- remember it was fairly well believed that Hillary would win . But that doesn't mean that you can look at some sentence from some old polls or 2008 analysis and pretend it has anything to do with the 2016 assault that Hillary endured and which gave us Trump.
Here's just one example from the Mueller indictments: (ILLEGAL CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS) from the link

Illegal campaign contributions

The special counsel is using the Federal Election Campaign Act, which prohibits foreign nationals from "making any contributions, expenditures, independent expenditures, or disbursements for electioneering communications," the indictment said.



You should read the Mueller indictments. Then you will see that it is about way more than just some Russian troll factories. Just the fact that you don't know how much they micro-targeted individuals in certain states with Hillary-hate propaganda is enough to see you are really deflecting here. Of course Sanders vicious attacks were noticeable enough that the Russians wanted to help him continue maligning Hillary. Just because you type a sentence that you don't think it hurt her -- we have FACTS now that show that they did. Also, who cares about 2008. Trying to claim it doesn't matter what Sanders did because Hillary 2008 is just absurd at this point. We KNOW from the Russia indictments what was picked up as beneficial to the plan to turn people away from Hillary. The Russians helped Sanders, Stein, and Trump to harm Hillary - FACT.

I notice you never mention the Bernie or Busters (an exactly named group) who committed to withholding votes since he wasn't on the ballot. We can certainly add those in the group that the Russians targeted to hurt Hillary. They didn't vote, so of course that adds up. It's absurd to pretend this was a normal election and you can apply retro analysis to gloss over the abuse Hillary endured.

We KNOW the margin of error(s) in the states and the culprits. No need to go door-to-door and ask people just to post here, but we do know what was done to harm our candidate. At some point, it would be interesting to show some concern about the most concerning thing right in front of us -- not try and back pedal and fight yet another reason (2008) to justify the unnecessary attacks on Hillary. Let's stick with the facts.

INDICTMENT: Russians also tried to help Bernie Sanders, Jill Stein presidential campaigns.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/02/17/indictment-russians-also-tried-help-bernie-sanders-jill-stein-presidential-campaigns/348051002/

"The Russians “engaged in operations primarily intended to communicate derogatory information about Hillary Clinton, to denigrate other candidates such as Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio, and to support Bernie Sanders and then-candidate Donald Trump,” according to the indictment, which was issued Friday."

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #224)

Wed Jun 13, 2018, 07:15 PM

225. You do not have facts - even if you use all caps; we know the exact number of votes she lost by,

but have no estimate of the numbers of people planning to vote for HRC, who moved to Trump or not voting because of the lies spread on social media. I doubt many people already for HRC believed any of those stories, while many on the far right have always believed everything bad ever said of her. (I have never seen a study on this, but I did see an analysis in 2004, that few people, who ever would have voted for Kerry believed the SBVT lies. They were given more respect by the mainstream media than pizzagate and the other Russian based lies.

As to the Bernie Bros, I have posted often that Bernie's support in the primary included both some traditional Democrats AND some libertarian/non political people who usually do not vote. Most of his supporters were Democrats who voted for Clinton in the general. The 10% who went from Bernie to Trump were the latter group. Even before the NH primary they were undecided between Bernie and Trump. To me and other here, that seemed very weird, but since then it has been described as wanting an outsider, a populist and change.

As to why I mentioned 2008, it was to point out that ALL opponents attack where they are different than the other and they think it advantages them. Note, this is not limited to 2008 - I can give examples of 2004 (flip/flop by Dean, a generic attack on a Senator by a Governor), 2000(too close to Clinton by Bradley), 1992(draft dodging - Kerrey about Clinton), 1988 (Willie Horton by Al Gore) ... I could go earlier, but that makes the point.

My point is that what Russia did was an attack. If Trump colluded, it is a very serious crime. However, it is wrong to blame Sanders because things he said were reused by the Republicans. That happens every election, because both the primary opponent and the general election opponent look to see what the weaknesses of their opponent are.

The things Sanders attacked - her speeches were going to be a Republican attack - especially after she changed her TPP position and the leaked tapes showed her 2013/2014 position. Nothing Sanders spoke of was secret or even hidden. The main attack by Trump was essentially that she was the status quo -- and he would change everything.

I am NOT ignoring what Russia did. You, in fact, are adding a condition that I don't -- that Mueller needs to prove it changed the election. I worked for over 2 decades doing statistical analysis and know that it would be extremely difficult and maybe not possible to design a study to prove conclusively that the Russian social media lies changed the outcome. (I have the same opinion on the 2004 use of Ohio Republicans of too few voting machines to suppress the vote in inner cities. I actually think that easier by asking people retroactively if they gave up rather than wait 4 plus hours in line when they had child and work responsibilities, but that would not be accepted as sound science.)

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Response to karynnj (Reply #225)

Thu Jun 14, 2018, 09:40 AM

227. What absolutely absurd wishful thinking to say we don't have FACTS that

Bernie's attacks hurt Hillary Clinton. Of course we have the facts. It is just absolute deflection to say we don't have facts. You seem to cling to the notion that we must have headcounts and personal addresses of individuals in order to make personal contact with them to determine if they personally were affected by the vicious attacks on our candidate. Of course that is a wild sidebar meant to mitigate the damage done.

Of course the Mueller investigation indictments show the damage done to Hillary. We see the complete dark and sinister efforts meant to undermine Hillary (Democrats) and we see how much effort was put into influencing people against her. No matter what your retro analysis tries to deflect, we know by common wisdom that prolonged primary attacks are not wise and result in damage to the top ticket. That is just common knowledge based on past experiences that prove that true.

You should read the Mueller indictments. We know by the election results who voted for whom, we have the margins to look at. We know that Hillary was targeted for harm, and she was attacked viciously. You still don't seem to grasp the depth of the assault against her. Individuals were microtargeted, especially in "purple" states with harmful propaganda against her. You don't get to gloss over these FACTS, which are now memorialized in the Mueller indictments. Just because you have a personal belief that she wasn't harmed, we know that she was -- hence the Mueller indictments -- attacks on our electorate and electoral processes. The harm has been documented. Please read the Mueller indictments. They set forth the scope of the harm done. People will be going to jail, so of course there are FACTS documented showing the attack on our 2016 election.

The Russians “engaged in operations primarily intended to communicate derogatory information about Hillary Clinton, to denigrate other candidates such as Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio, and to support Bernie Sanders and then-candidate Donald Trump,” according to the indictment, which was issued Friday.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/02/17/indictment-russians-also-tried-help-bernie-sanders-jill-stein-presidential-campaigns/348051002/

Of course the Russians liked the attacks they saw Sanders deliver on our nominee. That is why his campaign was helped as the above excerpt states. That is a fact -- Bernie's campaign was helped (and Steins's ) by the Russians to harm Hillary. Fact. Now a subject of federal investigations and indictments.

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #227)

Thu Jun 14, 2018, 11:27 AM

232. We obviously disagree -

You conflate the totally normal opposition that Bernie gave Hillary in the primaries - many after O'Malley made the same comments with all the attacks by anyone - Russians, Trump, the right wing attacks over decades. ANY primary opponent would have argued against Clinton. Most on similar issues, if not the same way. Many might have added Clinton's withholding emails from the State Department already under legitimate FOIA and Congressional request before she left, until late 2014 is the root of the Comey letters, the Lynch recusal etc might have been attacked. In an anti Wall Street atmosphere, all of them would have attacked the speeches.

Clinton, in 2009 KNEW that she was pretty much going to run and likely be the nominee in 2016. Both of those were self inflicted wounds. (Yes, I know Trump has LESS security on his phone. The problem is that it would have been reasonable to predict in 2012 that the request for emails would not disappear. Did she expect John Kerry to stonewall for 4 years? They had to "negotiate" with her to get them back which ultimately resulted in the fact that they were on a private server becoming known.

You ignore any voters that Sanders may have convinced they had to vote for Clinton in the general election, who otherwise may not have done so. Here, you say because I cannot produce a convincing statistically sound analysis on how many people that was -- it doesn't count. Yet, you call it deflection when I ask you for analyses on things you claim.

I am not disputing that the Russians used microtargeting in the general election. Microtargeting has been used for decades, the difference was that in 2016, they used social media to get much more data and then used social media for the targeting itself. As far back as 2004, Choicepoint used credit agency data to produce swing state targeting lists for multiple messages based on analysis of the data and focus groups that pegged what messages worked for each cluster of similar voters. (Cluster analysis, the statistical method used then and in 2016 works really well in creating the subgroups.) Before 2004, a less sophisticated version would be messages designed for specific areas and dispersed by flyers or broadcast on niche media.

The danger with microtargeting is that messages that no campaign would ever use in the open, seen by all, have been used. The difference in 2016 is that social media provided a cheap way to get messages to very minute groups that were designed to move them while remaining invisible to almost everyone else. It will be difficult to keep this from happening going forward - and it is likely that, if anything, new more sophisticated methods will be used.

As to "vicious", I would suggest that the attack on John Kerry's service - where even Senate peer, Bob Dole, argued that he never bled was worse than any of the overt attacks on Clinton.

What I am disputing is:
1) That Sanders himself is responsible for what Trump and/or the Russians did
2) That it is provable that had Sanders not run, Clinton would not have faced the same attacks in the general.
3) That anyone who supported Sanders IN THE PRIMARIES and voted for her in the general election, was responsible for her loss in the general.
4) That ALL the actual voters in the Democratic primary would have supported Clinton had there been no Sanders challenge. (That is disputed by the coverage of the NH primaries which found many choosing between Sanders and Trump.)

In addition, I have never stated as a fact anything that was not. I also understand that there is a limit to what can be validly analysed after an election. My profession was analytical research.



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Response to karynnj (Reply #232)

Thu Jun 14, 2018, 08:39 PM

234. Well, more news today shows again that your biased critiques of Hillary Clinton

are really on the fringes of credibility. You keep substituting your personal animus or "what about her emails" to try and deflect from the facts that we know from the Mueller investigation -- who harmed Hillary and why and who was helped by the Russians. Today's news shows just how much that whole email situation was hyperinflamed and overanalyzed by the FBI, and used as fodder to discredit her, which is against bureau protocol. You should watch Rachel Maddow's show, or I guess any current news shows. There is so much redeeming information about her emails that I just wouldn't bother typing it all.

Of course social media was the Russian's method to amplify negative propaganda about Clinton. We know that. It wasn't anything from 2004 or whenever. It doesn't matter what you researched before or who hated Hillary from this or that. The subject at hand is the current Mueller investigation and indictments that show Bernie's campaign (and Stein) was helped by the Russians because of his attacks on her. Trump copied Bernie's attacks, so of course his attacks are what harmed her. Read the Mueller indictments. Trump is a con man, and he copied Bernie. What does that tell you?? It must be nice to freely malign Hillary and blame her for everything, but I know that I have to be careful to even link to actual facts about Bernie, so no wonder you don't have to worry about free associations about whatever you want to pound Hillary about. I only wish I could reciprocate, sigh.

It's pretty absurd and unbelievable that the GOP would have thought up Bernie's abstract attacks on her. A supposed Democratic (?) colleague should not be just fabricating character assassinations based on empty accusations meant to promote him as a moral authority. His attacks were only copied by the Republicans because he handed them to the GOP on a silver platter. He was an absolute asset for the GOP and the Russians, and that is why Mueller investigation has the facts on how she was targeted. Because you don't believe this or that -- you don't believe that Sanders' attacks harmed her -- it doesn't matter what you believe, actually. We know from the Mueller indictments that the attacks were beneficial to the Russians, and he knows better than you or I what happened, so we'll have to defer to him. The FACTS show how this campaign with the dark money/foreign money promoted Bernie, Trump and Stein to harm Hillary.

It really doesn't matter that you have so many stipulations, because the whole election looks to be a foreign attack. Those are the facts, and that is why I said your personal biases do not supersede the Mueller investigations. You should read the Mueller indictments. Looks like people are going to jail.





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Response to R B Garr (Reply #234)

Thu Jun 14, 2018, 08:51 PM

235. Incoherent nonsense accusing me of things I never said

I have never questioned the Mueller investigation. Many of your allegations are your own interpretation, not anything Mueller or anyone associated with him has said.

As to being a Democrat, I have consistently been for Democrats since JFK and have voted for every Democrat since I was old enough to vote in 1972.

I am now putting you on ignore - something I have not done for anyone else.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #235)

Thu Jun 14, 2018, 08:56 PM

236. LOL, well your walls of words seems okay to you, and you do repeat

the same anti-Hillary ideations that I've seen many times, so I guess I'll call that "incoherent nonsense", too.

The thing is that this is a recurring theme, but not just with you. There are definitely attempts to repeat the "Russia doesn't matter" mantra, but it does matter. That is a fact, and subverting reality just to promote one man is way long past viable, sorry.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #235)

Wed Jun 27, 2018, 04:16 PM

240. I've been down the same road with this poster

They do not listen to reason. They have convinced themselves of their position beforehand, and will always 'get the last word'.

Somehow, Sanders was supposed to not actually engage in any criticism whatsoever against his opponent in the primaries, because it would make the pre-ordained one look bad. No such restrictions were ever required of O'Malley, Webb or Chafee were they? But how dare Sanders as a primaries opponent be critical of his competitor!!! And to not concede until he was required to! How awful.

That must have made her uncomfortable so #blamesanders


Sanders got support from not only many Democrats, but also Independents, the normally apolitical including the youth vote, and even small r moderate Republican voters. (which is why he probably would have won over Trump at the time, and probable delivered the Senate along with him). But to then twist that fact around and pretend that if every single one of those voters didn't vote for Hillary as Sanders implored, then Sanders is to blame? That he is responsible for who they voted for in the end? pu........lease.

That Sanders couldn't control those on the fringes to follow him and vote Hillary was all his fault too #blamesanders


The total dismissal of the fact that more Hillary supporters voted for McCain than Sanders supporters voted for Trump. What about the PUMA groups during and after Obama won his primaries? There has always been dissension in the ranks. But that disgruntlement usually dissipates after a few months. Some in here are STILL fighting the primaries years later. I wish the admin would actually enforce this rule, and the one that forbids disparaging other Democrats when it comes to Bernie, who is supposedly considered a Democrat in here according to Skinner.

But it seemingly is allowed to go on. #blamesanders

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Response to Hamlette (Reply #4)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 06:07 PM

68. Not here on DU.

Every effort is made to make Sanders supporters feel unwelcome.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #68)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 12:53 PM

136. .

 

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #68)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 10:18 PM

181. Well, you reap what you sow. nt

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Response to Hamlette (Reply #4)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 06:53 PM

163. I don't know who the "we" you refer to is --

 

but they sure as hell ain't here at DU.

There IS something you can do about it: stop insulting them, and rubbing their noses in every pitiful little speck of shit you can think of.

All you have to do is FORGET ABOUT THE PAST, and treat them like every other Democrat. That's it. Simple. Stop demonizing them. Stop insulting them. Just move forward.

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Response to RandomAccess (Reply #163)

Fri Jun 8, 2018, 10:44 AM

206. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

It's important that we NOT forget about the past as we've already been down this road twice in the last 16 years. Candidates can run or not according to the laws and regulations of the jurisdictions they run in, and voters can vote as they please, but let's not pretend that there aren't serious consequences to consider when deciding who to support and vote for.

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #206)

Fri Jun 8, 2018, 03:13 PM

209. You can either move on, or you can

 

continue rubbing disaffected Dems' noses in it, which will make SOME of them simply move on themselves -- elsewhere.

I see a lot of hostility toward ANYone who supported Bernie Sanders here and it's highly divisive. I eagerly voted for Hillary after supporting Bernie, but the level of disharmony shown by toooooooooo many people here against Bernie supporters is a real turn off. Ya'll need to get real fucking clear on the costs of your hostility toward Bernie supporters, and fast. And quit blaming THEM for being divisive. Anyone who isn't willing and able to say: what's past is past, now let's move on to the future is inviting negative repercussions.

And of course there are serious consequences for who we vote for -- that you felt the need to remind me is insulting, tho I trust you didn't mean it that way.

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Response to RandomAccess (Reply #209)

Fri Jun 8, 2018, 08:24 PM

211. It isn't personal. Here's the problem: moving on looks an awful lot like repeating the scenario.

When the same daily dribble of hollow accolades and outright whoppers starts taking over GD in exactly the same way it did before, some of us start wondering if in fact anyone learned anything. Can you blame us?

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #211)

Fri Jun 8, 2018, 08:34 PM

212. Yes, I can.

 

And do.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 04:18 PM

5. YES, I want them to vote for Democratic candidates!

And YES it would help put our candidates over the top!

They do need to vote, but obviously not for 3rd party candidates.

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #5)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 07:06 PM

90. You're so sensible my dear Peggy

My sentiments exactly.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 04:24 PM

6. Yes. nt

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 04:24 PM

7. If they "vote their conscience"

They'll vote against Republicans by voting for Democrats.

That's the system we have now.
That is reality.

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Response to SHRED (Reply #7)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:14 PM

31. This election is simple, vote for a democrat or you are supporting traitors.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #31)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 12:44 PM

134. Same with the last election

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Response to SHRED (Reply #7)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 02:07 PM

144. If their consience doesn't tell them to vote Democratic by now,

It's a waste of time and energy to try to persuade them. That time and energy is much better used to work to get disenfranchised people to vote - making sure that our excellent base (that would be minority voters, especially black women and men, not butthurt white covert racists and misogynists) isn't hindered from voting by GOP election shenanigans. Register young folks, make sure people get voter ids at no cost, drive people to polls - and leave those who would sacrifice the lives of the vulnerable to get free college tweet to themselves.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 04:25 PM

8. I'm working on a design for a "Begging for Your Vote" avatar.

I hope to have it completed before Novemver.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 04:25 PM

9. Are Bernie voters truly undecided between Trump's agenda and Dems?

really?

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 04:26 PM

10. Do you think it was a mistake to deny Hillary Clinton votes?

How has that worked out?

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #10)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:14 PM

32. Some who did that are pleased with themselves.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #32)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:18 PM

38. Yes, they are very pleased and are back for more...nt

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #38)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:37 PM

53. It's what Susan Sarandon wanted. Just LOOK at how giddy and animated she is...

... she can barely contain her excitement at the horrors that await us. Too bad Sarandon is too dumb to realize that you ACTUALLY have to be IN POWER and you actually have to HAVE THE MAJORITY in the House and Senate before there can be any sort of "revolution".

All I'm trying to say is that Sarandon is vain and ignorant (and so are those who think the same way she does.) Anyone not supporting the DEMOCRAT can kiss my ass! Whining people making threats (veiled, insinuated or direct) about voting "third party" can go fuck themselves!


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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #53)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:47 PM

59. +1, Sarandon is seriously delusional! What an incredibly ignorant stance -- let's give all our

power away and get absolutely nothing in return and call it some kind of "revolution". The absurdity of it is astounding.

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #59)


Response to NurseJackie (Reply #53)

Wed Jun 13, 2018, 10:53 AM

218. Ahh.... Democracy.

I love it. Vote the way that I vote, think the way that I think and we'll all get along.

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Response to mac2766 (Reply #218)


Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 04:27 PM

11. If they are too fucking stupid to do anything but vote for

A democrat in November, there aint much I can say or do to bring them out of their delusional self harming attitude and acts.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 04:30 PM

12. They're looking for FDR/ Dem values.

Whoever supports those values among the candidates, so most likely, Democrats.

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Response to Sienna86 (Reply #12)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 12:58 PM

139. FDR was president almost 100 years ago...great president no doubt, but what worked then won't work

now...move on people.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 04:37 PM

13. They have to make their own choices

In that process they need to learn not to force that on the rest of us.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 04:37 PM

14. Why wouldn't Bernie supporters vote for Democrats?

0. Do you want Bernie supporters to vote for Democrats in November?
Why wouldn't Bernie supporters vote for Democrats in November?

What do you think can be done to persuade them to vote for Democrats?
Why in the world would they need to be "persuaded"?

Would you prefer they a) not vote, or b) vote for third party candidates?


Exactly who ARE these anonymous "Bernie supporters" you're trying to describe? Are you suggesting that they need some additional persuasion or flattery in order to be convinced that it's important to defeat Republicans?


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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #14)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:16 PM

35. If I was allowed to talk about the past I could tell you stories of one person after another

saying things but I am not allowed.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #35)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:26 PM

47. Elliot, I'm in the same boat.

I have to bite my tongue every time a certain senator (with an "I" next to his name) is brought up here.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #14)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 06:58 PM

166. Nicely done.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 04:39 PM

15. My RL Bernie supporter friends

Are still bragging about not voting for Hillary, and at least one has left the Democratic Party. I no longer consider their political opinion to be particularly valid about anything. They can do as they will.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 04:43 PM

16. Of course I want them to. But, can I do anything about it...

legally, I mean. Many of them are beyond just reasoning with.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 04:44 PM

17. Yes, I want people who support Sanders, among many others...

 

To vote for the Democrat.

History tells us an overwhelming majority of them who are regular voters will do just that. Some of them will stay home. Some will vote for Republicans. Most are smart enough to vote for the Democrat. Shit like this is why Jane said what she said. To embolden simpletons into thinking they wield enough power to threaten their way to power. It’s a necessity as the people aren’t lining up behind their message in strong enough numbers.

Nothing more than a slightly different version of Bannon Theory. We get everything or bern it down. Many even outright share Bannon Theory. It must be destroyed in order to be fixed.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 04:44 PM

18. Sure

"Do you want Bernie supporters to vote for Democrats in November?"

I want EVERYBODY to vote for Democrats in November.

"Do you think their votes would help put Democratic candidates over the top?"

All Democratic votes will help put Democratic candidates over the top.

"What do you think can be done to persuade them to vote for Democrats?"

If the current situation is not sufficient, there is no point wasting effort.

"Would you prefer they a) not vote, or b) vote for third party candidates?"

If those are the alternatives, then I prefer they not vote, as third-party voting would likely dilute Democratic votes.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 04:46 PM

19. will they behave this time?

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 04:47 PM

20. I want EVERYONE to vote for dems in november..

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 04:48 PM

21. Sure, but more than that I'd like them to stop w the "both sides" bullshit and educate themselves...

 

The ones who are not too educated and still read Intercept and trust Wikileaks expect others to woo them- and not with facts, either. They want empty pandering.

I’d rather energize new and infrequent liberal voters.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #21)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:18 PM

37. For instance the Clinton's do more for those in need in ONE day thru their

foundation than any random 100 people combined in their lifetimes will do and Hillary is a LIBERAL.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #37)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:59 PM

65. When I talked with some friends about their work in Africa they told me that meant nothing....

 

wheras I thought it was huge, and great long term thinking. They were absolutely revered in Tanzania. It opened my eyes.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #21)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 06:40 PM

82. It would also be nice if they educated themselves enough to stop believing that their guy invented

politics and progressivism.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 04:50 PM

22. Okie Doakie

c) I prefer they vote for Democrats or they can guzzle Brawndo with the rest of the idiots.

If they need to be persuaded, they don't have a brain and they probably can't breathe on their own anyway.

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Response to XRubicon (Reply #22)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 11:15 PM

186. guzzle Brawndo

 



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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 04:55 PM

23. I'm not sure I understand the question

I'm an avid Bernie supporter. I voted for him in the primary. He lost, so I voted for Hillary in the general. In fact, I voted straight Democrat in the general.

Please don't generalize. There were many Bernie Sanders voters that voted for Hillary Clinton in the general. There were also many Democrats who were definitely not Sanders supporters who chose not to vote in the General. I'm certain there were a number of other situations that led to the loss that neither relates to Bernie Sanders or Hillary Clinton at all.

My opinion is that we should wait until the 2020 campaign begins before we start arguing about who we will support in the primary. I, for one, will vote for Bernie Sanders in the primary if he runs. If he wins the nomination, I will proudly vote for him in the general election. If he does not win the nomination, I will vote for whomever does win the Democratic nomination.

Take me off of your list. Subtract 1 from it. I don't fit. I'm certain that I'm not the only one, but I can only attest to my personal position.

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Response to mac2766 (Reply #23)

Fri Jun 15, 2018, 01:19 AM

238. Same here.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 04:57 PM

24. Is your premise that Bernie supporters are not planning to vote for Democrats in Nov?


If they are not moved by these egregious constitutional crises, the possibility of war with Iran, hundreds of thousands of jobs lost by an idiotic trade war, the complete collapse of the House of Representatives in their function as a check on the executive branch, the tax give away and the huge debt that is going to cripple social programs for decades, the decline of the US dollar and the increase of gas and import prices because of tariffs, the attack on migrants (Temporary Protection Orders), undocumented workers, asylum workers, refugees, attacks on our allies and collusion with Putin, attacks on science and a war on the environment. . .

If they are not moved by all of that then I have no interest in discussing anything with them.

I have talked with many (maybe a couple of dozen) Republicans who have never voted for a Democrat and will be voting for one for the first time this November.

Your question really is an insult to "Bernie supporters". Do you really think that they are unwilling or unable to put the national interest first in the midst of all that is going on and need to 'coddled' into doing the right thing?

None of the "Bernie Supporters" that I know in person have that kind of hubris. They can't wait until the General Election and get the job done. Frankly your suggestion is an insult to "Bernie Supporters".

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Response to grantcart (Reply #24)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 08:54 PM

113. Very well put. We are better off wooing Republicans to vote for Dems than wasting our time ...

...on the Susan Sarandons of this country.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #113)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 09:03 PM

116. we should be talking to every American because this goes beyond party



but my point is that if you look at the logic of the OP's question it is just about the most insulting thing you could say about "Bernie Sanders' supporters", that they need persuading or that they have leverage or anything else really.

If I could alert on the OP in a way that would explain how insulting it is I would but no place to explain.

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Response to grantcart (Reply #116)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 09:16 PM

118. Hmmm

"Encouraging people to vote 3rd Party"?

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Response to grantcart (Reply #116)



Response to shanny (Reply #120)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 12:24 AM

123. I see irony shading into sarcasm is lost on you. In plain language...

Don't ask me to waste my time trying to "convince" people who still need convincing that Trump and Trumpism are the worst evil that has befallen us as a nation, and who still think a "revolution" will save us.

On the other hand, I actually know Republicans who broke ranks with the GOP over Sarah Palin, and certainly did not waste their vote on Jill Stein or the like in 2016.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:02 PM

26. I'm looking around for Susan Sarandon n/t

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:02 PM

27. They'll vote strongly for Dems.

Just like they've always done. It's the delusional Greens that need convincing.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:03 PM

28. Those

Who dont vote against the maggot, must support his tomfuckery.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:10 PM

29. This OP has the same foul odor of Jane Sanders' recent "Third Party" threat.

Would you prefer they a) not vote, or b) vote for third party candidates?
This OP has the same foul odor of Jane Sanders' recent "Third Party" threat.

All I'm trying to say is that mature and thoughtful voters know that the Democrat is ALWAYS the better choice... and that mature and thoughtful voters don't need to have their egos stroked. They don't need to be persuaded. They don't pout. They don't make threats. They don't have tantrums.


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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #29)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:20 PM

40. WAit for it, gonna get way worse and soon, especially since

certain folks were not successful yesterday.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #29)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:21 PM

42. Sounds like a threat to me.

Lately the little girl next door has a screaming fit every morning, her first year of kindergarten I think, and her mother has to drag her out the door while she sobs and wails NO MAMA NO. Annoying.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #29)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 07:50 PM

99. All I got is this in regards to the OP



(That's for you... ). I mean...this shit again?

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Response to Docreed2003 (Reply #99)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 07:53 PM

101. Exactly.

They do the same thing over and over whenever they're sulking and pouting. "Me me me me me me meeeeeee! What about meeeeeee?"

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #101)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 08:12 PM

107. Truth!

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Response to Docreed2003 (Reply #99)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 09:43 PM

121. +1

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #29)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 07:58 PM

103. Exactly, they are already trying to turn 2020 into a Contested/Brokered Convention.

Guess we don’t learn quickly.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #29)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 12:59 PM

141. Is this the new meme...vote for us or else? OR is losing so now instead of working to earn

votes, they want to threaten us into voting for their candidates? I don't take kindly to threats.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:14 PM

33. If they don't they're fucking morons

Last edited Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:46 PM - Edit history (1)

and not worth the wasted breath. I’m not going to go around giving them individual tug jobs and commemorative T-shirts.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:16 PM

34. If they can't see for themselves how important that is...

I'm not going to beg them.

It's that simple. I also don't placate spoiled toddlers.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:21 PM

41. Why do they need to be presuded?

They can sit on the high horse of their ideology or they can do what is right for their country. Simple choice.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:21 PM

44. What's the point of this question?

To stir up some shit? Why wouldn't they vote for a Democratic candidate?

I like Sen Sanders but this is just stupid.

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Response to tazkcmo (Reply #44)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 05:28 PM

151. Nailed it!

 

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:29 PM

50. Oh please, not this again

As others have said, at this point it's a waste of time to "persuade them to vote for Democrats." If they don't know by NOW that only Democrats can restore the country to a democracy, there's no chance to persuade them.

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Response to NastyRiffraff (Reply #50)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 07:02 PM

89. You can say that again

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Response to grantcart (Reply #89)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 07:06 PM

91. I saw what you did

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)


Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:35 PM

52. Only if they want to get Republicans and Trump out of control of the government.

Sheeeeish.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:40 PM

54. Hit and run?...nt

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #54)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:44 PM

57. Seems to rotate...

anti-Biden, anti-Feinstein and Kennedy topics were prevalent for awhile....

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #57)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 06:13 PM

71. and anti-Pelosi

with a few anti-Booker, Harris, etc thrown in.

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #54)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:57 PM

64. Drive-by. Not at all unusual.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:40 PM

55. Most of them will, regardless, despite what some folks say...

And sadly, a minority within the Democratic party will continue the failed strategy of trying to persuade (practically non-existent) moderate Republicans to vote blue.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:43 PM

56. Because that worked so well for them last time.



Send the ransom note already, and lets be done with it.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:45 PM

58. Did you vote for Hillary Clinton in the GE?

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Response to lunamagica (Reply #58)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 04:46 PM

148. Crickets

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Response to lunamagica (Reply #58)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 05:22 PM

150. No, she didn't vote for Hillary in the GE. I thought she would be back by now to explain her

reasons for not voting for Hillary, but I've asked her this before and she said (paraphrasing)

--that California is such a large state so she can vote for whomever she wants and it doesn't matter.
--doesn't like super delegates
--doesn't like the electoral college
--if Bernie was not on the ballot, then vote for the "peace candidate", which she claims wasn't Hillary (Stein, lol)

There's more of what she said here, but enough for now....



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Response to R B Garr (Reply #150)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 05:29 PM

152. Regardless of her reasons, it is agaist the TOS and no one who voted for anyone other

than the Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton belongs on Democratic Underground.

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Response to lunamagica (Reply #152)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 05:32 PM

153. That's what I thought, too. She posts on JPR too, so it was easy to spot the

anti-Hillary talking points, now continued with other Dems pointed out in this thread already. I thought I saw on JPR that she wasn't going to return here for the reasons you mentioned.... I recognized her from old posts.....

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:49 PM

60. Are they not interested in saving this country from complete annihilation?

Im confused.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:54 PM

61. Honestly, that is pretty silly

and I get visuals of kids having fits of anger.
Of course, everyone here wants as many voters as possible for the Dem candidates. To even ask such a question and whether it would help is strange.
I think a more valid question would be whether they'll vote for the Dem candidate (most of them will). But these questions sound like asking for praise and affirmation for a certain group.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 05:55 PM

62. and now - this:


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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 06:08 PM

69. Is this a trick question? Are you taking the piss?

Do you want Bernie supporters to vote for Democrats in November?

YES

Do you think their votes would help put Democratic candidates over the top?

YES

What do you think can be done to persuade them to vote for Democrats?

IT'S NOT MY FUCKING RESPONSIBILITY TO 'PERSUADE' SUPPOSEDLY LIBERAL VOTERS WHO SHOULD ALREADY BE VOTING DEM... ASSUMING THEY HAVE A BRAIN, THEY ALREADY KNOW THE STAKES

Would you prefer they a) not vote, or b) vote for third party candidates?

HAVE YOU BEEN DRINKING? ARE YOU ON DRUGS?



Now, are there any *more* questions??

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 06:08 PM

70. The vast majority of those who supported Sen. Sanders in the primaries

Last edited Wed Jun 6, 2018, 07:09 PM - Edit history (1)

DID vote for Clinton in the general election and voted for Dems in down ticket races as well.

All but one of those I know did and the one wasn't a Dem to begin with.

This is pot-stirring to rile up both factions from the last presidential primary. No need for that, it is OVER, done, maybe we should move on now.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 06:13 PM

72. "Do you want Bernie supporters to vote for Democrats in November?"

 

"Do you think their votes would help put Democratic candidates over the top?"

"What do you think can be done to persuade them to vote for Democrats?"

"Would you prefer they a) not vote, or b) vote for third party candidates?"


Are you implying that there is a segment of Bernie Sanders supporters who do not vote for the Democratic Party?

That these voters need persuasion to not vote for Republicans?

Are you promoting and campaigning for such voters, and encouraging them to a) not vote, or b) vote for a third party candidate?

Have these voters recognized how disastrous and destructive this current Administration is?

Do these voters need more than that to understand why the current Administration needs to be voted out?

Who are these voters who still do not understand what is at stake?

How many of these voters are you in contact with, Sophia? Perhaps your time would be better spent on explaining to these voters why and how this administration is dangerous and why every vote matters. Perhaps you need to explain to them that voting third party or not voting is the same as voting for Trump.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 06:20 PM

73. So Bernie voters are not Democrats and have to be persuaded

to vote for Democrats? I don't think that is is true...so I vote to ignore such nonsense...vote for Democrats as if your life depends on it because it does. I think clearly in the specials, it was Black women who put Democrats over the top in many races.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 06:24 PM

74. Why on earth would even think...

That a Democrat on Democratic Underground would ever suggest to another Democrat to vote 3rd party. Your question insults us all.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 06:28 PM

75. This isn't "The Bachelor"

If Bernie supporters still need to be persuaded to vote Democratic, I don't have time for them.

I'm busy trying to make sure that people who actually WILL vote for Democrats but are having trouble getting to the polls can vote and that their vote is actually counted.

There are plenty of those folks - more than enough to outvote anyone who isn't voting Democratic, whether they're voting for Trump, voting third party or not voting at all. I've got more important things than to worry about them, so I'm fine just leaving their ignorant asses right where they are.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 06:33 PM

78. I am really getting tired of all the Bernie supporter bashing here.

The very vast majority are Democrats who in the end vote for the Democrat on the ballot. Those very few who voted for someone else or didn't vote at all in 2016 are a tiny, insignificant minority and you shouldn't be wasting any bandwidth even thinking about it.

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Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #78)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 09:14 PM

117. Tell that to the OP, who asserted the either/or proposition that BS supporters would vote 3rd Party

...unless we Dems changed to suit them.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #117)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 10:40 AM

129. I know. I don't keep track

of who starts these Bernie supporter bashing posts. Maybe only one person here is responsible for all of them, but I don't think so. It's one of the bits of insanity that consumes a certain portion here.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #117)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 06:56 PM

164. Uh, not really

 

Here's the OP:

Do you want Bernie supporters to vote for Democrats in November?
Do you think their votes would help put Democratic candidates over the top?

What do you think can be done to persuade them to vote for Democrats?

Would you prefer they a) not vote, or b) vote for third party candidates?


Fairly objective, AFAIC. It's all the PILING ON that makes this an ugly, divisive thread. The OP on its own is not, and says absolutely nothing like what you said.

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Response to RandomAccess (Reply #164)

Fri Jun 8, 2018, 09:29 AM

200. Alas, this is just the latest in what are nearly daily posts on the topic.

So yeah, the OP itself isn't piling on, but the fact that this has been rather endlessly discussed here makes it a pile on.

The underlying, unspoken assumption that thousands, perhaps millions of Bernie fans are out there, poised to undermine the next election is absurd.

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Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #78)

Fri Jun 8, 2018, 12:06 AM

189. It's a hit and run Flamebait OP by a BS

supporter.

Please deal with the reality.

And, yeah.. there was this from Jane Sanders.. More Divisiveness.

JSanders: If the Democratic party doesn't become progressive, there will be a third party

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210695176

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 06:37 PM

79. I want everyone

to vote for democrats, regardless of whether they support Bernie, trump, thanos, lucifer, etc. I don't care as long as democrats are voted in to office. Right now is not the time to be choosy.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 06:38 PM

80. By now if you encourage the divide,

you’re working for Putin.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 06:40 PM

83. I want Russian bots and useful tools called out. Next question?

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 06:41 PM

84. What's happening over on Independent Underground?

Are members over there trying to persuade independents to reach out to Dems?

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Response to ProudLib72 (Reply #84)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 07:24 PM

96. Ha!

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 06:44 PM

85. Do I want Green Party supporters to vote for Democrats in November?

Yes. But not enough to sell my soul.

I don't see any difference between Bernie supporters, Green supporters, or any other "progressives" who try to impose their views on the vast majority of Democrats by threatening to withhold their votes if they don't get their way.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 06:51 PM

86. How about vote to save America?

 

Or is that to much for the puritan crowd? Better ask Miss Sanders apparently she has a big plan.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 06:57 PM

87. It would be nice. I think the way they see the issue is self defeating

They look at it as: What will this person do to get MY vote? Like they're handing out a big reward or something. They don't seem to understand that most candidates will be just fine with or without the job. It's not about the candidates, it's about us. We are all being harmed by the GOP

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 07:01 PM

88. You are making an assumption

That people who supported Senator Sanders in 2012 would tend to not support a democratic candidate. That is not the case afaik.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 07:09 PM

92. I want them to vote for the candidate who

Can win and comes closest to their points of view. That's the rational choice. That's what I have done in every election since 1966.

I have never voted for any candidate with whom I agree on every issue. Not once.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 07:09 PM

93. No, the question is.. Why wouldn't they?

Don't they care about our Country.. our Planet?

What are they going to do.. sit home?

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Response to Cha (Reply #93)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 11:04 PM

185. Because it is suddenly hip to be contrarians. nt

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Response to ProudLib72 (Reply #185)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 11:58 PM

188. And, fall on their

own petard and take the world with them.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 07:19 PM

94. I don't care..why everyday a stupid Bernie post?

If Bernies voters want to get on board...they're late for the show. Bernies yesterday. How about we talk about President Hillary Clinton everyday?

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 07:43 PM

97. I supported Bernie in the primaries and when he lost l supported Hillary without hesitation.

Your question is troublesome. I don't just want Bernie supporters to vote for Democrats, I want EVERYONE to vote Democratic.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 07:44 PM

98. Can I rephrase that?

Well look at how the Trump Party is wrecking the country.

What a shame...

You know, if you want to fix this any time soon, you're going to need me.

So, whattaya got? You're gonna have to make it worth my while, or I'll walk away.


This OP really isn't surprising to me, this is what I've come to expect from his most ardent supporters.

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Response to The Polack MSgt (Reply #98)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 08:01 PM

104. Reminds Me Of 2012

When certain voters said they wanted to be wooed

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Response to Me. (Reply #104)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 04:09 PM

145. and another election i am not allowed to mention

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #145)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 05:03 PM

149. SHHH

Not in front of the children!

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Response to The Polack MSgt (Reply #98)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 04:09 PM

146. AT some point we have to assess their real goal, and it is not pretty

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 07:53 PM

100. I find blackmail unpersuasive in general, no matter how phrased nt

 

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 07:54 PM

102. If they're sane individuals, they already are voting for Democrats in November


All the "persuasion" they should need is to turn on their TVs every day and see Trump.


I'm through pandering to people who, in their selfish delusion (like Susan Sarandon), helped give us Trump.


Get on the sane team that is trying to save the Republic...... Your "wish list" needs to wait until we drive the traitors out of office.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 08:07 PM

106. Look, I was an ARDENT supporter of Bernie Sanders in the primary last year. I took it hard when he

lost the primary. But once it was established that Hillary Clinton was our candidate, I canvased, donated, phone banked, and most definitely voted for her. In the process of working for Bernie, before the Wisconsin primary, I got to know a lot of other Bernie supporters very well. As far as I know, there was ONE individual among them at our local office who did not vote for Hillary in the GE (according to her she voted for Jill Stein. Yeah, I know). My point is, everybody but her voted for Hillary. And, I learned last week, this particular individual who voted for Stein now regrets doing so deeply- Wisconsin was very close- and would not do so again.

So what's my point? I agree that anyone who still doesn't get it is probably a lost cause. But basically running around effectively shouting "fuck Bernie" isn't going to help. A lot of us (Bernie supporters) are less than thrilled with the "Our Revolution" group and wish Bernie would be more proactive in supporting the Democrats who have the best chances of returning congress into Democratic hands. But... please don't be like my sister who called me a "misogynist bastard" for not voting HRC in the Primary. She has since apologized to me for that, as have I for a few things I said during the primary. We CAN win in November, and in some places we will need votes from people we might not agree with.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 08:12 PM

108. I have a novel idea... give them a progressive

to vote for.

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Response to rainy (Reply #108)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 07:12 PM

170. I have a novel idea: get off their asses and be that "progressive" who runs. And THEN, if they LOSE

...it will be because not enough voters agree with them.

Which seems to be what is happening right now across the country.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 08:13 PM

109. a or b means a vote for Trump and a vote to sink America

If you’re framing this as a real question, the country has a a big big big problem.

If you’re a patriotic American, you must vote for Democrats this November. Period. It is a contest between democracy and corrupt autocracy. Any vote that isn’t for a Dem is a vote for autocracy.



(Is this even in question???????)

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 08:14 PM

110. It boggles my mind that someone would start a discussion with a question....

....gets more than 100 responses over about four hours, but doesn't bother to participate in the discussion.

But to answer your question, I (meaning ME, not some vague group of online entities) want ANY voters to vote for the person who they think would support their positions on the many issues facing this country.

It's not a matter of "a" or "b" or actually the initial question.

So, at 5:13 this afternoon, you asked FOUR questions. Wouldn't it make sense that sometime in the course of this discussion over several hours you answer your own questions?

Thank you!

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 08:26 PM

111. They were mostly not Democrats before 2016, and they are often incredibly ignorant of Democratic

...history, policies, and real-world accomplishments. They seem to not know who our living heroes and heroines are and what they did that makes them heroes, and are all too ready to shout down those people. All they see is Bernie, and they think it ALL begins and ends with Bernie Sanders, because they are ignorant and neither know nor care that other people -- male and female, white and black and Latino and Asian -- came up with these same ideas and then spent their entire lives working to make them a reality.

I reject your either/or premise. I say educate and persuade. Then they have a real choice: work with us from within the Party, as true partners for the betterment of the country -- or go their own way and do as they will, and not waste any more of our time.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 08:38 PM

112. I think that's on them

We need to build the party with really good people and a good platform and let them decide. I have no intention of trying to sway one over to our side. I will never trust them, they aren't Democrats, nor do they support Democrats.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 08:54 PM

114. I want ice cream.

Depends on how they vote.

Bring out belly dancers.

c) I prefer RC


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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 08:57 PM

115. If "Bernie supporters" give a shit about the issues they claim to advocate....

then they will vote for democrats... if its just a cult of personality for them then fuck em.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 09:34 PM

119. If Bernie voters love trump over America..then they deserve what trump is

serving...

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 6, 2018, 09:44 PM

122. Shall we just re elect trump now?

What the hell is wrong with you folks.
We need massive dem turnout period

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 06:56 AM

124. If they vote on the basis of political competency, and actual progressive goals, they they will vote

for a Democrat.

If it's just about a personality, and they won't vote for anyone that disagrees with a particular politician's view of how to reach those goals, then there's no telling.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 07:05 AM

125. I have a feeling "you" means imaginary establishment/centrist/Third Way whatever.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 07:30 AM

126. The More Important Question is do Bernie Supporters want to Vote for Democrats in November?

They have proven they will do it their way, despite the cost, even if it means we are all stuck with Trump as president.

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Response to dlk (Reply #126)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 07:38 AM

128. The #'s don't support your implication..

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 07:36 AM

127. I think this should be directed at PUMA's

because per the #'s Sanders supporters overwhelmingly voted for the "Democrat" in 2016 in comparison to 2008.. so, although I get your implication because ppl here like to stir sh*t up, you have to ignore that minority of hate percenters.. their goal is solely to divide & conquer.. I say let the primaries play out, establishment candidates are winning - but so are the so-called others and they are Democrats too, does being more progressive change that?? - I don't think so.. Is Georgia not going to turn out for Stacy Abrams because of an endorsement?? I don't know, I guess we'll see how petty some can be..

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 10:42 AM

130. Meh. I think we should go with the "We got this" strategy again. It worked really well last time.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 10:43 AM

131. My how far we've strayed since the days of JFK. Ask not.... and all that.

For fuck's sake. The Democratic Party will not be held hostage.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 11:09 AM

132. I find these to be four insulting questions, but here goes

1.) Do you want Bernie supporters to vote for Democrats in November?

Well, DUH. I want EVERY eligible voter to vote for Democrats in November.


2.) Do you think their votes would help put Democratic candidates over the top?

ALL votes for Democrats would help put them over the top.

3.) What do you think can be done to persuade them to vote for Democrats?

Nothing. They will "vote their conscience." In 2016, for most of them , that was Hillary. For some, it was Jill Stein. For some, it was writing in Sanders. I would say, consider the consequences of the alternative, but then, that is the same message from last time.

4.) Would you prefer they a) not vote, or b) vote for third party candidates?

OK, if I REALLY come across as this stupid, I am a hopeless case. I choose c) that they vote for a Democrat. It may not have been one of your choices, but fortunately, it IS one of theirs.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 11:25 AM

133. Helloooooo? OP?...

There are lots of good replies in here. Why haven't you come back to your thread?



Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #133)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 01:05 PM

143. +1

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 12:45 PM

135. Yes every one I have every personally met who is a Bernie supporter

Always votes for Dems anyway.

So the answer is YES we do want their vote just as YES I want republicans to vote Democratic in November too.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 12:56 PM

138. after a year and a half of trump, if they still have to be persuaded....😐🔫

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Response to spanone (Reply #138)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 10:08 PM

180. Tell me about it, you have to need to be convinced to vote for a sure loser or even worse to not

vote at all.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 12:58 PM

140. This has become religious in nature.

 

Those still making this argument cannot be persuaded. It's taken as if someone is questioning their religion.

There are larger groups available to go for. We don't need to spend a penny on Sanders supporters. Most Sanders supporters actually define themselves as Democrats first with Sanders being a career politician they support. We are already targeting that group.

Not a fucking penny goes to get the vote of this HA Goodman group being referenced.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #140)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 01:04 PM

142. It is almost cultish...don't really understand.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 05:32 PM

154. I don't know who you are Sophia4, but I really think that's a ridiculous question.

People who support Bernie Sanders don't do so, blindly, like those who support Trump.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 05:36 PM

155. sarandon types .

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 05:49 PM

157. Two nieces. 1 registered Indep, 1 reg Repub. Both were HUGE BS supporters. Here's what's nuts....

They're both STILL big BS supporters and wish he'd run in 2020. They think he's adorable.
Guess what? They both voted for trump. Yup!

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 05:53 PM

158. Winner of the Most Passive Aggressive OP of the Day Award.

"Do you want Bernie supporters to vote for Democrats in November?" UHH, YES.

"Do you think their votes would help put Democratic candidates over the top?" UHH, MAYBE.

"What do you think can be done to persuade them to vote for Democrats?" UHH, FREE TOTE BAGS.

"Would you prefer they a) not vote, or b) vote for third party candidates?" SERIOUSLY?

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Response to VOX (Reply #158)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 06:59 PM

167. AFAIC

 

that's better than the pure ugly aggression in most of the replies. But I don't read the OP that way.

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Response to RandomAccess (Reply #167)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 07:15 PM

172. ...

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Response to VOX (Reply #158)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 07:14 PM

171. "Free tote bags!"

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #171)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 09:39 PM

173. "BernieBags️ totes are handcrafted by ideologically pure artisans..."

“...using only the finest in borrowed equipment...borrowed, because why buy, when you can simply use what others have paid for and put together? BernieBags are so durable that they can transport dozens of fuzzy tuition-free dreams all day long; and they’re moisture proof, so you can unwittingly carry water for Republicans, too!”

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Response to VOX (Reply #173)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 09:42 PM

174. Brilliant!

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #174)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 09:55 PM

176. Ah, shucks...

*bashfully digs toe into carpet* Thank you!

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Response to VOX (Reply #173)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 10:38 PM

184. Excellent!

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Response to betsuni (Reply #184)

Fri Jun 8, 2018, 05:00 AM

192. Thanks. Ya know, I love and appreciate what Bernie has done...

for progressive causes. But I must emphasize "has done."

The Democratic Party is the LAST semi-organized entity standing between democracy and a full-blown fascist oligarchy (we're probably halfway there already). We MUST back Democrats in November.
Whew, I can preach to the choir with the best of 'em.


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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 06:01 PM

159. I want everyone to vote for Democrats in November.

I stand for the principles and platform of the Democratic party, and I'm getting tired of having to act as if that's something to apologize for.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 06:20 PM

161. What is it you're trying to get?

What kind of numbers are you talking about?

I find it odd that you would ask this question. Our nation is on fire. We have a Nazi in the White House and you're pushing what? Why should I trust anyone who has any agenda other than voting Democratic?

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 07:01 PM

168. If any self-identifed progressive has to be "persuaded" to vote for Democrats, they are not

progressives

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 09:43 PM

175. I want everyone to vote for Democrats. Anything else is an open endorsement

Of treason so long as drumpf allows Putin to control the country.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 09:59 PM

177. Do you want many Democratic voters to vote Democratic? That is what

you meant right.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 09:59 PM

178. Hell, YES!!!!

Every vote counts!!!!!

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 10:03 PM

179. nice to know there are still non republican voters out there living in that other dimension where th

Can go about not voting and making ideological stands because there isn't a 50% chance that one party is hell bent on sending us all straight to hell. Don't vote Democratic and we all going to take ride the express elevator right on down to the bottom together.

Maybe in a few billion years a some other civilization will come along and dig up organic matter from what used to be the bottom of one our oceans. They'll wonder where we went.... and the answer will be extinct. Extinct because we couldn't get our shit together to stop letting the people that want to strip mine the planet do it, you know, because of ideological "reasons".

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 10:28 PM

182. If they are not convinced. Then fuck them.

The only ones who won’t are in 2 real camps as far as I can tell-

1. Those that like the same government involvement most all democrats do but hate our civil rights stances.

2. Those that are members of a cult of personality that over rides all other concerns

Fuck both groups

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 10:29 PM

183. How about they figure it out themselves. Nt

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Thu Jun 7, 2018, 11:38 PM

187. We already do!!!

Remember? Bernie put his support behind Hillary and we all did the same. And to be honest, had Bernie NOT have conceded by the convention I would have switched to Hillary at that time regardless and I would have lost a lot of respect for the man.

But he didn't. He supported Hillary and the dems in 2016.

The people who didn't vote dem weren't Bernie supports, they were political hipsters who treat politics as a fashion statement. They don't actually support the causes they claim to support, they just want to APPEAR as if they do. They want to appear politically pure and high and mighty and they don't give a shit that by doing that they actually HURT the very causes they CLAIM to support.

That said, I think we should try to win them over. We should be trying to win every last person we can over. Winning in 2018 is vital to minimizing the harm done by Trump and WE HAVE TO WIN IN 2020. If Trump gets one more SCotUS appointment it is game over.

WE HAVE TO WIN!!!!

Do you think their votes would help put Democratic candidates over the top?


Okay, talking about the BoBs and the greens here. Bernie supporters in general already vote dem.

Anyway, Yes they would. The math is clear on that.

But so would appealing to unhappy republicans, centrists, and even Trump supporters who regret their vote. Most of all we need to try and reach the non-voters. WE NEED EVERY VOTE WE CAN GET!!!!

What do you think can be done to persuade them to vote for Democrats?


There arre several things we could do that I feel would appeal to them. Minimizing the role of super PACs and focusing on raising funds mainly through individuals. Changing our primary system to be more fair and democratics would show that we care about them feeling like their voice is being listened to.

Would you prefer they a) not vote, or b) vote for third party candidates?


I prefer they vote to defeat Republicans. That means voting democratic 99.9% of the time.

[hr]
That said, you seem worried the anti-bernie sentiment here might convince some Bernie supporters to not vote democrat. Don't worry, it won't affect his true supporters. Our causes are more important than having upset feelings. What all this shit stirring is likely to do to us is make us just quit coming to DU. That might not affect the Bernie haters but it does hurt DU's pocket book. Especially seeing as before the election the majority of DUer's were pro-Bernie.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Fri Jun 8, 2018, 12:49 AM

190. Anyone on the left so fragile as to have not voted for Hillary over Trump is a lost cause.

They're beyond hope, reason or help. Threats by them that they may not vote for Democrats in 2018 prove that point. They'll never be made happy and only see the worst in the Democratic Party without acknowledging the best. I don't mean the intelligent, rational Bernie supporters. Just his extreme fringe puritanical followers who spewed RW/Russian propaganda like a fountain.

Now, I suggest we all move on and focus on those out there who are sane and reachable. There's a lot more of them than the unreachable extreme fringe who think they can somehow hold the rest of us hostage.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Fri Jun 8, 2018, 05:10 AM

193. The people that spend every day trashing Bernie

and not saying a single word about trump, don't want any votes for Democrats.

They are trolls.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Fri Jun 8, 2018, 06:18 AM

195. So, you post questions, and then just stand back.

What are YOUR responses?

Actually participating by doing what you are asking others here to do would show that your post isn't one that is simply passive agressive, divisive trolling, as has been pointed out several places in this thread.

As I recall, you once said you didn't vote for HRC in the GE, so I'm betting that's why you won't discuss your own thoughts on this topic, and are simply reading the arguing with satisfaction.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #195)

Fri Jun 8, 2018, 07:02 AM

196. OP could have most of you on ignore

No one is required to respond to any of you.

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Response to RandiFan1290 (Reply #196)

Fri Jun 8, 2018, 07:07 AM

197. ...

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Response to RandiFan1290 (Reply #196)

Fri Jun 8, 2018, 07:10 AM

198. I didn't say anyone was required to.

I (along with others here) just pointed out how it appears when one posts a divisive post, particularly a poll, then disappears.

And the OP certainly doesn't have everyone on this thread on ignore, does she?

Perhaps you could relay that to her?

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Fri Jun 8, 2018, 09:57 AM

201. Follow Bernie's lead

Vote dems.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Fri Jun 8, 2018, 09:59 AM

202. I really wish I had bookmarked the many...

 

..."We don't need their votes!!!" posts from before the 2016 election.

Many from the same people now spending countless amounts of time and energy blaming those people whose votes we apparently didn't need, for not giving us those votes. That we didn't need. And countless amounts of time and energy about how we need to reach out to and appeal independents. Just apparently not left leaning independents.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Fri Jun 8, 2018, 10:02 AM

203. If they have any sense at all, they'll do just that.

If not, then I have no time to waste on people who have no sense. There are lots of people who do, but who do not normally vote. I think I'll focus on them.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Fri Jun 8, 2018, 11:26 AM

208. BERNIE SANDERS VOTERS HELPED TRUMP WIN AND HERE'S PROOF

What is new about this threat? http://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-trump-2016-election-654320

Bernie Sanders supporters switched their allegiance to Donald Trump in large enough numbers last November to sway the election for the real estate billionaire, according to an analysis of voter data released Tuesday by the blog Political Wire. Since Trump’s shock victory over Hillary Clinton, much discussion has focused on the degree to which passionate Sanders supporters’ refusal to embrace Clinton led to the Republican winding up in the White House.

Here is some more https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/24/16194086/bernie-trump-voters-study

About 12 percent of Bernie Sanders supporters from the Democratic primary crossed party lines and voted for Donald Trump in the general election, a new analysis says.

In several key states — Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan — the number of Sanders to Trump defectors were greater than Trump’s margin of victory, according to new numbers released Wednesday by UMass professor Brian Schaffner.

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #208)

Fri Jun 8, 2018, 07:54 PM

210. If defecting Bernie Sanders voters changed the outcome of the election, wouldn't

 

it have been better if Hillary had chosen Bernie as her running mate?

I've always wondered about that. Why didn't she?

She would have won over all the Bernie voters who felt very hurt and angry because, true or false, they believed that Bernie had been cheated.

Wouldn't it be better if we all worked together. I have a lot of friends who supported Bernie who will not support the Democratic Party. I think that is a huge mistake because the Democratic Party represents their values and is the best option for them.

But ????? Can I tell them they are welcome in the Democratic Party?

I'm in California. Lots of very liberal voters in my neighborhood. Lots of Bernie supporters. I am rather aghast at some of the responses to the questions I asked in the OP. I do think that Bernie voters' votes could make a difference. But how can I ask my Bernie supporting friends to vote for Democrats when I see so much hostility toward them here?

I am a lifelong Democrat who has worked very, very hard for Democratic candidates since the 1960s. My vote is certain, but what do I say to my Bernie-supporting friends.

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Response to Sophia4 (Reply #210)

Fri Jun 8, 2018, 09:55 PM

213. You can ask your Sanders supporting friends to vote for Democrats

because it is the right thing to do. Nuff said.

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Response to Sophia4 (Reply #210)

Fri Jun 8, 2018, 10:33 PM

214. Uh, How certain is your vote?? Your scenarios tend to change,

it seems. I can remember the purity concerns over Hillary which I’m sure are still on this site. Endless excuses of why you and your friends can’t vote for the Democrat, now with concerns over the proper etiquette on how you should be treated, as if you deserve constant special considerations.

Trump is a destructive maniac, so surely your friends know that...? It’s odd to suggest that anyone would hesitate to work to get him out.

Stein voters are why we have Trump.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Sat Jun 9, 2018, 12:32 PM

215. Is this enough persuasion for you?


https://www.democraticunderground.com/10142079782

A family was separated at the border, and this distraught father took his own life

A Honduran father separated from his wife and child suffered a breakdown at a Texas jail and killed himself in a padded cell last month, according to Border Patrol agents and an incident report filed by sheriff’s deputies.

The death of Marco Antonio Muñoz, 39, has not been publicly disclosed by the Department of Homeland Security, and did not appear in any local news accounts. But according to a copy of a sheriff’s department report obtained by The Washington Post, Muñoz was found on the floor of his cell May 13 in a pool of blood with an item of clothing twisted around his neck.

Starr County sheriff’s deputies recorded the incident as a “suicide in custody.”

Muñoz’s death occurred not long after the Trump administration began implementing its “zero tolerance” crackdown on illegal migration, measures that include separating parents from their children and the threat of criminal prosecution for anyone who enters the United States unlawfully.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Mon Jun 11, 2018, 04:59 PM

216. Economist--Berned out

This article makes me smile https://www.economist.com/united-states/2018/06/09/berned-out

None of Mr Sanders’s other big ideas—including free college and massive public works—is getting much play. Nor have Sanders-endorsed candidates fared well in the primaries. Our Revolution, a group Mr Sanders formed to promote his acolytes, has been a failure. “It doesn’t do anything,” gripes a strategist for one of its candidates.

Rumpled, crumpled, Trumpled

The energy on the left is focused on opposing Mr Trump’s attack on liberal democracy, not on carrying forward Mr Sanders’s revolution. The success of moderate candidates in the Democratic primaries suggests this is making the party more pragmatic and mindful of party unity than Mr Sanders, an ideologue who is not a Democratic Party member, might like.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Mon Jun 11, 2018, 05:18 PM

217. Why do posts like this get resurrected and/or copied?

Simply to stir the pot, create divisiveness and whine. If Bernie supporters cannot recognize the threat that is all things Trump, then what can I or anyone else say?

Beyond you ignorant fu*cks.

If you want to join a religion, go to church. If you want to save the Republic, then you support, work and vote for the Democratic Party which is the only way we neuter the Trumpster's disastrous, cruel and traitorous behavior.

Eliot has been harping for months: It's the Math, people. The number of asses we put in seats. Or you can kiss the country goodbye because this is a bilateral effort--we're on one side of the field and Mueller's on the other. We both have a job to do.

If you can't follow that, you can't follow anything.

So, the whole question is absurd. Unless voting for your own self-interest and the future of the country is too hard to grasp.

But yes, Bernie supporters should vote for the Democratic Party because . . . national survival.

I will now refrain from opening any other Bernie posts.



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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Wed Jun 13, 2018, 07:45 PM

226. We have a very real chance of hastening the end of this nightmare in November. That's not enough?

If Bernie's people aren't convinced by that and instead sit home (or waste their vote on a third party) because some random internet poster hurt their fee fees, whatever happens next is on them.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Thu Jun 14, 2018, 10:27 AM

230. I lulz'd

again

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Thu Jun 14, 2018, 11:37 AM

233. If Bernie's followers are too stupid to vote out the Republicans in November, then no

I'd rather go after the millions of people who don't vote than grovel to a bunch of self destructive whiners.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Thu Jun 14, 2018, 11:47 PM

237. Given the air time

Hill and Don had versus him,he would be President now if he had the same.

If he is still breathing in '20,he will be Commander in Chief.

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Response to Sophia4 (Original post)

Tue Jun 26, 2018, 02:13 PM

239. Are sanders supporters who voted for stein or trump happy with SCOTUS rulings?

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