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Wed May 16, 2018, 10:19 AM

Hamas could have chosen peace. Instead, it made Gaza suffer.

In the winter of 2005, Ziad Abu Amr, a Gaza representative in the Palestinian Legislative Council, invited me to speak in Gaza City. As I entered the building for the event, I saw Mahmoud al-Zahar, one of the co-founders of Hamas. Before I could say anything, Ziad explained: “We decided to invite the opposition to hear you. We think it is important that they do so.”

I had not expected senior Hamas leaders to be there, but it didn’t alter my main message. Israel was slated to withdraw from the Gaza Strip in several months, so I emphasized that this was a time of opportunity for Palestinians — they should seize it. I told the audience of roughly 200 Gazans that this was a moment to promote Palestinian national aspirations.

If they took advantage of the Israeli withdrawal to peacefully develop Gaza, the international community and the Israelis would see that what was working in Gaza could also be applied to the West Bank. However, I then asked rhetorically: If Palestinians instead turn Gaza into a platform for attacks against Israel, who is going to favor an Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank and the creation of a Palestinian state?

Much of Palestinians’ history might have been imposed on them by others, I said. But this time they had the power to shape their future. If they made the wrong choice, they could not blame the Arabs, the Europeans, the Americans — or the Israelis.
...
Unfortunately, we know the path Hamas chose. Even as Israel was completing the process of withdrawing all its settlers and soldiers from Gaza, Hamas carried out a bus-station bombing in Israel. Then, from late 2005 to early 2006, Hamas conducted multiple attacks on the very crossing points that allowed people and goods to move into and out of Gaza. For Hamas, it was more important to continue “resistance” than to allow Gazans to constructively test their new freedom — or to give Israelis a reason to think that withdrawal could work. Some argue that Israel withdrew but imposed a siege on Gaza. In reality, Hamas produced the siege. Israel’s tight embargo on Gaza came only after ongoing Hamas attacks.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/hamas-could-have-chosen-peace-instead-it-made-gaza-suffer/2014/08/08/eefd2b48-1d83-11e4-82f9-2cd6fa8da5c4_story.html

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Reply Hamas could have chosen peace. Instead, it made Gaza suffer. (Original post)
Fozzledick May 16 OP
Squinch May 16 #1
B2G May 16 #2
Fozzledick May 16 #5
brush May 16 #57
MythosMaster May 16 #33
B2G May 16 #34
Blue_Tires May 16 #59
procon May 16 #40
B2G May 16 #41
procon May 16 #44
MythosMaster May 16 #51
Blue_Tires May 16 #60
Snackshack May 16 #54
BannonsLiver May 16 #3
still_one May 16 #29
SidDithers May 16 #35
malaise May 16 #4
Fozzledick May 16 #7
MFM008 May 16 #30
wellst0nev0ter May 16 #38
OnDoutside May 16 #18
ProudLib72 May 16 #55
malaise May 16 #56
Hortensis May 16 #6
treestar May 16 #8
malaise May 16 #9
Fozzledick May 16 #10
oberliner May 16 #13
Fozzledick May 16 #15
oberliner May 16 #16
Crunchy Frog May 16 #17
treestar May 16 #19
whathehell May 16 #27
mythology May 16 #37
leftynyc May 16 #11
treestar May 16 #20
leftynyc May 16 #25
COLGATE4 May 16 #53
oberliner May 16 #12
treestar May 16 #21
oberliner May 16 #23
B2G May 16 #14
treestar May 16 #22
oberliner May 16 #24
HopeAgain May 16 #26
whathehell May 16 #28
oberliner May 16 #32
MicaelS May 16 #47
DanTex May 16 #31
hack89 May 16 #36
DanTex May 16 #43
malaise May 16 #39
EX500rider May 16 #58
Bettie May 16 #61
EX500rider May 16 #62
Bettie May 16 #63
EX500rider May 16 #64
Bettie May 16 #66
EX500rider May 16 #67
panader0 May 16 #42
COLGATE4 May 16 #45
Fozzledick May 16 #46
panader0 May 16 #49
Fozzledick May 16 #50
EX500rider May 16 #48
COLGATE4 May 16 #52
Fozzledick May 16 #65

Response to Fozzledick (Original post)

Wed May 16, 2018, 10:21 AM

1. Israel could have not slaughtered 50 unarmed protesters.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #1)

Wed May 16, 2018, 10:23 AM

2. Point of clarification.

They were not 'unarmed'.

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Response to B2G (Reply #2)

Wed May 16, 2018, 10:27 AM

5. Don't confuse him with the facts!

The party line is that they were all innocent children.

Although Hamas is having trouble keeping their story straight: https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210620618

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Response to Fozzledick (Reply #5)

Wed May 16, 2018, 06:22 PM

57. Stop the bs blaming of dead victims and blame trump for moving...

Last edited Wed May 16, 2018, 07:36 PM - Edit history (3)

the embassy which everyone but the boastful braggart trump knew would cause violence.

Every other president knew better.

And does anyone seriously think the killing and injuring of all those people is somehow justified?

It's what's called extremely excessive force and everyone knows it—sniper fire from distance v sticks, stones, slingshots from behind a fence.

Come on.

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Response to B2G (Reply #2)

Wed May 16, 2018, 01:19 PM

33. yes, sticks and stones

?quality=85&strip=all&w=770

and don't forget flags.

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Response to MythosMaster (Reply #33)

Wed May 16, 2018, 01:41 PM

34. And molotov cocktails, and explosive kites and

god know what else.

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Response to B2G (Reply #34)

Wed May 16, 2018, 07:40 PM

59. Did they fire first?

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Response to B2G (Reply #2)

Wed May 16, 2018, 02:13 PM

40. Oh, well then, the slaughter must have been justified, yeah?

Civilians with slingshots vs military weapons?

If an NFL player can throw a football about 70-80 yards, how far can a kid fling a molotov cocktail before a sniper a 1000 yards away, shoots him?

That's the important 'clarifications' that were omitted.

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Response to procon (Reply #40)

Wed May 16, 2018, 02:17 PM

41. What would have happened if they had breached the fence?

Use your imagination.

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Response to B2G (Reply #41)

Wed May 16, 2018, 02:48 PM

44. Is there a distinction only in the numbers of civilians that Israeli soldiers

are permitted to kill? Is that the bar then, the body count, like a page from some dystopian novel that attempts to justify slaughter? In the past, Israeli forces have used other methods for non-lethal crowd control such as sonic blast weapons, teargas and water cannons to deter masses of people. Instead, this time Israel chose to order the military to fire directly into the crowds of civilian protesters. Why? Was it to impress Trump?

Whatever the motivation, it was a terrible decision and the horrendous optics did far more lasting harm to Israel than anything the desperate Palestinians did.






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Response to procon (Reply #44)

Wed May 16, 2018, 04:41 PM

51. Bibi is playing the same cards

that putin plays in russia, house of saud plays in saudi arabia, duterte plays in philippines, erdogan in turkey and what trump wants to do here.

Extreme nationalism, extreme fundamentalism in one religion, and headed by a cult of personality strongman.

The fascists are taking over.

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Response to B2G (Reply #2)

Wed May 16, 2018, 07:41 PM

60. The children were armed, too?

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Response to Squinch (Reply #1)

Wed May 16, 2018, 05:20 PM

54. True.

Apparently anything can be justified.

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Response to Fozzledick (Original post)

Wed May 16, 2018, 10:25 AM

3. About time for some of this content to start appearing in the proper forum

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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #3)

Wed May 16, 2018, 01:00 PM

29. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #3)

Wed May 16, 2018, 01:45 PM

35. Abso-fucking-lutely...nt

Sid

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Response to Fozzledick (Original post)

Wed May 16, 2018, 10:25 AM

4. Maybe they learned something from the native Americans, Aborigines

and people of Africa - make peace and watch them kill you and steal your land.
Funny how the warmongers always scream peace.

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Response to malaise (Reply #4)

Wed May 16, 2018, 10:32 AM

7. The withdrawal from Gaza was stealing land? Really?

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Response to Fozzledick (Reply #7)

Wed May 16, 2018, 01:07 PM

30. They have the Palestinians

Trapped and occupied .
If they even fish
out to far they are shot.
Its not what they " WERE" going to do
But what they ARE doing.
Are you telling me one of the worlds greatest
Army couldnt show restraint?
Against rock throwers, tire burners and
Kite fliers?
Like Bibis last "cleanup" in 2014 where
Over 1000 children were killed?

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Response to MFM008 (Reply #30)

Wed May 16, 2018, 02:04 PM

38. Interestingly, this article was written in 2014

By noted Eye-rack war apologist Dennis Ross

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Response to malaise (Reply #4)

Wed May 16, 2018, 12:41 PM

18. Well said.

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Response to malaise (Reply #4)

Wed May 16, 2018, 05:24 PM

55. Help Malaise, POC want equal rights and we simply can't allow that to happen!

I am totally disgusted by the reaction of some of the people on DU. It's a big FU to civil rights

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Response to ProudLib72 (Reply #55)

Wed May 16, 2018, 05:26 PM

56. Basic human rights let alone civil, economic or social rights

I get the impression that a few people here believe that only some folks are entitled to those

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Response to Fozzledick (Original post)

Wed May 16, 2018, 10:28 AM

6. Hamas is a CONSERVATIVE fundamentalist organization.

Strong social and/or religious conservatives are the world's big troublemakers. Of course, Hamas didn't follow the dove.

And all those poor, decent people in Gaza, who just like us want to live safe, normal lives unruled by malice, are caught between the hard-core conservatives currently in control of both Gaza/Hamas and the Israeli government. (Also currently the U.S. and most ME governments.)

The people of Gaza are also running out of water and electricity. Warfare aside, Gaza's becoming increasingly unlivable and they can't get out.

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Response to Fozzledick (Original post)

Wed May 16, 2018, 10:36 AM

8. It seems to be it is always the Palestinians fault

I mean the least effective arguments are based on the idea that the Palestinians do what Israel wants, or it's their fault. Reminds me of a lawyer who thought "negotiation" mean she tells me what she wants and I agree, or I'm not negotiating in good faith.

By this time the Palestinians long know this. If they kill Israelis they are evil; if Israelis kill them, it's their own fault. This won't be solved until the other side gets heard.

I've seen the assertion that if only they'd done what Israel wanted in 1994 or 1999, they'd be fine now. It has to go two ways. Certain arguers for Israel, if you look at their arguments, assume we must all accept their view in total or we are anti-Semitic.

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Response to treestar (Reply #8)

Wed May 16, 2018, 10:37 AM

9. Well said

Thank you

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Response to treestar (Reply #8)

Wed May 16, 2018, 10:43 AM

10. What Israel wants is for the Palestinians to stop murdering them.

What Israel wanted in 1994 and 1999 was to negotiate a lasting peace.

How very unreasonable of them! No wonder the Palestinians always turn them down.

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Response to Fozzledick (Reply #10)

Wed May 16, 2018, 12:16 PM

13. This article is from 2014, by the way

In case people think it's more current.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #13)

Wed May 16, 2018, 12:27 PM

15. I saw it on the front page of today's Washington Post.

They must think its relevant to the current events. I thought it was a concise explanation of the background and causes of the situation from a historical perspective.

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Response to Fozzledick (Reply #15)

Wed May 16, 2018, 12:38 PM

16. I'm glad you posted it

Just clarifying that it is from several years ago.

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Response to Fozzledick (Reply #10)

Wed May 16, 2018, 12:39 PM

17. They also want the land that the Palestinians are living on or farming.

At least in "Judea and Samaria".

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Response to Fozzledick (Reply #10)

Wed May 16, 2018, 12:43 PM

19. The Palestinians want the Israelis to stop murdering them

And stop making settlements in what land was left for them.

You don't see how one-sided your statement is?

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Response to Fozzledick (Reply #10)

Wed May 16, 2018, 12:55 PM

27. I'd guess the Palestinians want the same from the Israelis..

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Response to Fozzledick (Reply #10)

Wed May 16, 2018, 02:02 PM

37. You can choose to believe Israel wanted peace

I choose to believe their actions. Their government chooses to use lethal force, they continue to expand illegal settlements.

I don't think the Palestinians are blameless either. But pretending Israel has negotiated in nothing but good faith is naive.

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Response to treestar (Reply #8)

Wed May 16, 2018, 12:08 PM

11. They could have taken the state

offered to them in 1948 and NONE of this would be happening. And it would have been a state far larger than anything they'll get now. But no, they decided to go to war instead and far too many on the left think infinite do-overs are the answer.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #11)

Wed May 16, 2018, 12:44 PM

20. Again, they could have cooperated fully or

they are in the wrong. Why did they have no say in 1948? They should have. Who thought the people living there would just bow down? And it seems to have been expected. Like nobody thought the people already there would have a problem with this.

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Response to treestar (Reply #20)

Wed May 16, 2018, 12:51 PM

25. Plenty of Jews were already there

and they took what was offered even though much smaller than the state they now have and didn't include the Old City where the Western Wall is located. That means they were still forbidden to pray at their most holy site. They took what was offered anyway. Why pretend otherwise?

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #11)

Wed May 16, 2018, 04:54 PM

53. Remember it was said that "Palestinians never miss an opportunity

to miss an opportunity".

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Response to treestar (Reply #8)

Wed May 16, 2018, 12:16 PM

12. Author is: Bill Clinton's Middle East peace negotiator and special assistant to President Obama

Just FYI.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #12)

Wed May 16, 2018, 12:45 PM

21. So that means we agree with the author 100%?

After all I have heard about lock-step, this takes the cake.

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Response to treestar (Reply #21)

Wed May 16, 2018, 12:47 PM

23. Of course not

Just some context for folks who might not recognize the name Dennis Ross.

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Response to treestar (Reply #8)

Wed May 16, 2018, 12:23 PM

14. Hamas' fault.

Know the difference.

53 of the 62 killed in the 'protests' were Hamas. What does that tell you?

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Response to B2G (Reply #14)

Wed May 16, 2018, 12:46 PM

22. Don't know how it is proven, but that makes it OK

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Response to treestar (Reply #22)

Wed May 16, 2018, 12:48 PM

24. Hamas announced it

JERUSALEM — The Latest on the Israel-Palestinian conflict (all times local):

6:10 p.m.

A senior Hamas official says the vast majority of protesters killed by Israeli fire during protests on the Gaza border this week were members of the Islamic militant group.

Salah Bardawil says 50 of the nearly 60 protesters killed by Israeli fire were members of the group that rules the Gaza Strip. He spoke in an interview Wednesday to Baladna TV, a private Palestinian news outlet.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/the-latest-israeli-military-sends-aid-to-gaza/2018/05/15/745fb82a-58a2-11e8-9889-07bcc1327f4b_story.html?utm_term=.6f62cc4b89ba

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Response to oberliner (Reply #24)

Wed May 16, 2018, 12:54 PM

26. That makes them fair game to shoot?

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #26)

Wed May 16, 2018, 12:58 PM

28. Good question

but I wouldn't expect much in the way of an answer.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #26)

Wed May 16, 2018, 01:17 PM

32. No

I was just explaining how we know that they were Hamas members.

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Response to treestar (Reply #8)

Wed May 16, 2018, 03:30 PM

47. No, it is not ALWAYS the Palestinians fault.

Mostly it is their Muslims brothers fault who have not taken them in and given them citizenship in their countries.

Instead they (mostly the Saudis) want to keep the plight of the Palestinians as a club they can use to beat Israel and the US over the head with, while simultaneously diverting attention from their own repressive regimes. No one wants the Palestinians, especially Saudi Arabia.

And WHY haven't the other Muslim nations taken in all the new refugees from Syria and the like? Why are they having to flee to Europe and the US?

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Response to Fozzledick (Original post)

Wed May 16, 2018, 01:13 PM

31. Hamas secretly infiltrated IDF and forced them to murder civilians. Wow.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #31)

Wed May 16, 2018, 01:45 PM

36. Hamas members are not civilians. nt

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Response to hack89 (Reply #36)

Wed May 16, 2018, 02:45 PM

43. Some of them are, of course. Just like some Likud members are civilians.

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Response to Fozzledick (Original post)

Wed May 16, 2018, 02:06 PM

39. Israel could have chosen two states and not enforced

apartheid

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Response to malaise (Reply #39)

Wed May 16, 2018, 06:57 PM

58. One side does practice apartheid...but not the one you think.

Percentage of Arabs living in Israel? 20%
Percentage of Jews living in Gaza? 0%

Number on Arabs in the Israeli Knesset? 18
Number of Jews in government in Gaza? 0

Number of Mosques in Israel? 19
Number of Jewish Temples in Gaza? 0

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mosques_in_Israel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_members_of_the_Knesset

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #58)

Wed May 16, 2018, 07:48 PM

61. OK, so imagine for a moment,

you are Jewish and have a choice: Open Air Prison Gaza or Israel with full rights of citizenship.

Hard choice, eh? Oh, wait, no it isn't.

Why would anyone with any other choice choose Gaza?

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Response to Bettie (Reply #61)

Wed May 16, 2018, 08:06 PM

62. More likely anyone Jewish would be killed in a day or two in Gaza

Why is Gaza a prison? They share a border with Eygpt that Israel has no say over.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #62)

Wed May 16, 2018, 09:13 PM

63. Right because in your mind

the people there are sub-human. That is very clear.

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Response to Bettie (Reply #63)

Wed May 16, 2018, 09:22 PM

64. Are their any Jewish people who can safely travel around Gaza?

I think Hamas is just slightly above the Taliban.
You can be a fan, I am not.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #64)

Wed May 16, 2018, 10:04 PM

66. Why would anyone be a tourist in a prison?

Seriously, these people are being held (yes, held) in terrible conditions.

Hamas? Not a fan, but when people have no hope, they will reach for something that gives them hope.

But you go ahead and have your moment, I get it, the Israeli government can do no wrong, they are benevolent as they have not killed everyone in Gaza...yet.

And I am done with you.

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Response to Bettie (Reply #66)

Wed May 16, 2018, 10:11 PM

67. How is it a prison when they share a border with Eygpt that Israel does not control?

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Response to Fozzledick (Original post)

Wed May 16, 2018, 02:24 PM

42. Hey Fozzledick--try googling 'Map of shrinking Palestine'

Then you may begin to understand why the Palestinians are so pissed off.
Throw in the fact that they are basically imprisoned in Gaza, now one of the most densely
populated places on earth. Water and power are sketchy at best.
What would you do if you and yours were treated that way? Just grin and bear it?
Or defy the oppressors?

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Response to panader0 (Reply #42)

Wed May 16, 2018, 02:55 PM

45. If you want them to "defy the oppressors" then start with

them defying Hamas, which controls Gaza with an iron fist. It's Hamas' fault that most of the money provided by international sources gets siphoned off, the cement gotten for rebuilding gets instead used for new infiltration tunnels in Israel and that no democratic elections have taken place for years. This, leaving aside the obvious exhortations to the young to become 'martyrs for the faith" and die fighting the Israelis, the kiddies TV programs that teach preschoolers to hate and want to kill Jews and, last but certainly not least the $3,500 payment to families of the "martyrs".

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Response to panader0 (Reply #42)

Wed May 16, 2018, 02:59 PM

46. You mean THIS notorious fraud?



Yeah, that's been debunked so thoroughly and so often it's really just a sick joke, and the only oppressors in Gaza are Hamas.

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Response to Fozzledick (Reply #46)

Wed May 16, 2018, 04:05 PM

49. Kinda weird that the land used to be called Palestine.

What has never been debunked is that the Palestinians were forced from their houses and land,
herded up and put onto increasingly smaller "reservations".

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Response to panader0 (Reply #49)

Wed May 16, 2018, 04:41 PM

50. It's a Latinization of "Land of the Philistines", Philistines being Hebrew for "foreign invaders".

The Romans used it after the diaspora as a euphemism to avoid mentioning the Kingdom of Judea by name. It's been used from time to time to refer to the general area, but was always just a possession of whatever empire controlled the region, never an independent political entity.

What's really weird is pretending not to know that most of the Arabs who fled Israel in 1948 did so voluntarily to clear space for the five invading Arab armies to come in and slaughter the Jews. A seriously disingenuous denial of basic history.

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Response to panader0 (Reply #42)

Wed May 16, 2018, 03:53 PM

48. Doesn't Gaza share a border with Eygpt? That the Israeli's have no say over?

I wonder why the Rafah border crossing to Eygpt is frequently closed?

Maybe Hamas makes bad neighbors with everyone and exports violence and bombings?

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #48)

Wed May 16, 2018, 04:52 PM

52. Oh, I'm sure that this couldn't be the case.

The Egyptians have always had warm, brotherly relations with their Palestinian 'cousins'. (If necessary, )

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Response to panader0 (Reply #42)

Wed May 16, 2018, 09:35 PM

65. Just for contrast, here's a historically accurate map for comparison.

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