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Thu May 10, 2018, 02:41 PM

Was Monica Lewinsky a victim of sexual harassment or

not since it was consensual contact?

132 replies, 4808 views

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Reply Was Monica Lewinsky a victim of sexual harassment or (Original post)
BigmanPigman May 2018 OP
Xipe Totec May 2018 #1
leftynyc May 2018 #84
Hortensis May 2018 #130
bettyellen May 2018 #2
JustAnotherGen May 2018 #11
Wellstone ruled May 2018 #19
bottomofthehill May 2018 #48
MaryMagdaline May 2018 #51
bettyellen May 2018 #68
EffieBlack May 2018 #78
bettyellen May 2018 #116
bettyellen May 2018 #23
JustAnotherGen May 2018 #49
Eliot Rosewater May 2018 #53
JustAnotherGen May 2018 #54
Eliot Rosewater May 2018 #55
tblue37 May 2018 #44
JustAnotherGen May 2018 #50
True Dough May 2018 #59
JustAnotherGen May 2018 #67
True Dough May 2018 #75
3catwoman3 May 2018 #31
Orsino May 2018 #89
bettyellen May 2018 #92
Orsino May 2018 #94
bettyellen May 2018 #95
Orsino May 2018 #96
bettyellen May 2018 #97
Orsino May 2018 #98
bettyellen May 2018 #99
Orsino May 2018 #101
bettyellen May 2018 #103
Orsino May 2018 #118
femmedem May 2018 #127
Tipperary May 2018 #131
karynnj May 2018 #100
bettyellen May 2018 #102
karynnj May 2018 #105
bettyellen May 2018 #108
R B Garr May 2018 #112
bettyellen May 2018 #113
R B Garr May 2018 #114
bettyellen May 2018 #115
R B Garr May 2018 #117
bettyellen May 2018 #121
wasupaloopa May 2018 #3
pnwmom May 2018 #65
Yupster May 2018 #125
NCTraveler May 2018 #4
lapfog_1 May 2018 #5
lame54 May 2018 #9
mythology May 2018 #14
kskiska May 2018 #21
jrthin May 2018 #26
Squinch May 2018 #42
lapfog_1 May 2018 #15
LenaBaby61 May 2018 #77
hlthe2b May 2018 #6
pnwmom May 2018 #64
elocs May 2018 #7
JI7 May 2018 #12
elocs May 2018 #69
JI7 May 2018 #70
leftynyc May 2018 #85
JI7 May 2018 #8
mythology May 2018 #10
IluvPitties May 2018 #36
Arkansas Granny May 2018 #13
jrthin May 2018 #27
GoCubsGo May 2018 #128
Stallion May 2018 #16
IluvPitties May 2018 #37
Squinch May 2018 #43
Orsino May 2018 #104
DemocratSinceBirth May 2018 #17
.99center May 2018 #18
LAS14 May 2018 #20
LanternWaste May 2018 #22
Arkansas Granny May 2018 #29
Lochloosa May 2018 #33
IluvPitties May 2018 #38
Stallion May 2018 #45
MichMan May 2018 #71
Arkansas Granny May 2018 #73
JI7 May 2018 #81
Squinch May 2018 #47
kskiska May 2018 #58
pnwmom May 2018 #63
unblock May 2018 #24
Grammy23 May 2018 #25
4139 May 2018 #28
LAS14 May 2018 #30
djg21 May 2018 #32
LAS14 May 2018 #35
Orsino May 2018 #90
IluvPitties May 2018 #39
LisaL May 2018 #41
politicaljunkie41910 May 2018 #61
djg21 May 2018 #76
pnwmom May 2018 #62
RhodeIslandOne May 2018 #74
stevenleser May 2018 #107
IluvPitties May 2018 #34
comradebillyboy May 2018 #40
StevieM May 2018 #46
pandr32 May 2018 #52
frogmarch May 2018 #56
Blue_Tires May 2018 #57
moriah May 2018 #60
aikoaiko May 2018 #66
nolabear May 2018 #72
demmiblue May 2018 #87
EffieBlack May 2018 #79
Hekate May 2018 #110
Raine May 2018 #80
Bluesaph May 2018 #82
betsuni May 2018 #83
dansolo May 2018 #86
Orsino May 2018 #91
forthemiddle May 2018 #88
Le Gaucher May 2018 #120
ismnotwasm May 2018 #93
Mike Nelson May 2018 #106
Hekate May 2018 #109
LAS14 May 2018 #124
Miles Archer May 2018 #111
UpInArms May 2018 #119
Yavin4 May 2018 #122
LAS14 May 2018 #123
onecent May 2018 #126
WhiteTara May 2018 #129
disillusioned73 May 2018 #132

Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Thu May 10, 2018, 02:44 PM

1. Depends

On whether she actually felt she could say no without repercussions.

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Response to Xipe Totec (Reply #1)

Fri May 11, 2018, 03:48 AM

84. She ADMITTED

She went to the White House to have sex with Clinton, something about presidential kneepads. It was awful that her bad judgement was broadcast to the entire world as none of us deserve that but she was no victim. The only victim was the woman whose husband she blew.

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Response to Xipe Totec (Reply #1)

Sun May 13, 2018, 04:21 PM

130. That's actually a right-wing sliming allegation, Xipe.

Might consider the source. It's not Lewinsky, though she's no longer the heedless 22-year-old she was when their affair began.

When it was so extremely rudely interrupted, the roof fell in on her life, and now she looks back and realizes she was too inexperienced for the situation (not the sex presumably), while he did not have that excuse.

Here, she's actually gone out to stand in a public rope line so she could have some fun as he came by. There are other foolish exposures by someone who clearly had no real idea what could happen.


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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Thu May 10, 2018, 02:44 PM

2. Since she initiated it, she is not without fault in the matter. Bill was wrong too.

 

I think flashing your thong in the workplace would typically be considered harassment as well?

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #2)

Thu May 10, 2018, 02:51 PM

11. I agree

She and I are the same age (born in 1973) -

I will always believe - she knew what she was doing. Now the power dynamic? That's a different story but -


She knew what a hook up was. She knew the meaning of 'hook up'. And I'm over the 'rich and powerful' idea. Power because of his position? Yes. But I was dating a Bill AND a Sabre (I was kind of a snot when I was younger) at the same time -

It was all fun and games.

It's just her game was with the wrong dude.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #11)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:01 PM

19. So agree,

both consenting Adults.

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Response to Wellstone ruled (Reply #19)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:54 PM

48. Employer/Employee realtionship where the power is all on one side

Never a good idea. Were they both willing, maybe, but it was and will never be seen by me as an even playing field.

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Response to bottomofthehill (Reply #48)

Thu May 10, 2018, 04:03 PM

51. She initiated it and wanted the relationship

The imbalance of power is such that he gets to walk away without consequences; her life was destroyed.

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Response to MaryMagdaline (Reply #51)

Thu May 10, 2018, 04:43 PM

68. There were very heavy consequences for Bill too.

 

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Response to MaryMagdaline (Reply #51)

Thu May 10, 2018, 05:57 PM

78. The balance of power was such that he COULDN'T walk away without consequences

As I recall, he suffered some pretty serious consequences for that relationship.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #78)

Fri May 11, 2018, 04:26 PM

116. The fact that she admits threatening him.... is pretty damning. She knew she had her own cards and

 

played them. I’m not absolving Clinton, but this was not workplace sexual harassment.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #11)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:05 PM

23. It seems like she was disappointed she didn't break up their marriage... so she allowed her affair

 

To be weaponized. Kinda childish, naive for sure. Tripp lead her down the wrong road. And I do think that once they made the mistake of screwing around, he had so much more to lose than she did. And she made him pay for it. Not exactly a healthy way to cope. I can’t give her any awards for that.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #23)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:55 PM

49. I don't hold her responsible though - hear me out

There was ONE bad actor in that situation. HIS name is Bill.

HRC and Lewinsky?

HRC did nothing wrong and owes no one any apologies.
Lewinsky didn't make a vow to Bill.
Bill made one to HRC.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #49)

Thu May 10, 2018, 04:08 PM

53. Bill was wrong, period.

Liberals hold liberals responsible for bad behavior.

Which we have done.

Should he be impeached? Of course not, but he should be held accountable and was.

And while I dont think he sexually assaulted anyone as I dont think Al Franken did, and we KNOW rump DID assault people, but the behavour by Bill over the years is wrong.

But common.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #53)

Thu May 10, 2018, 04:11 PM

54. I just wonder why

Anyone in the media would give it air at this time? It's suspicious - you know Eliot? Like at no time did President Clinton fellate Putin or his Predecessor. He didn't get payoffs and bribes - no pay to play. He wasn't a traitor then and he's not a traitor now and the only President whose bad acts need to be discussed is 45/140.

Oh and he's broke - and Bill Clinton isn't. He's sooooooooooo broke that . . .

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #54)

Thu May 10, 2018, 04:13 PM

55. Take all of Bill's faults, multiply them by ten million and he is still a FAR better person

than any con. FAR better.

And he is the ONLY One they can point to of ANY wrongdoing, and it is having sex, and their side is FILLED to the rafters, so of course they talk about him

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #11)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:42 PM

44. She bragged to a friend before going to DC that she was going to earn her "presidential knepads." nt

Last edited Thu May 10, 2018, 06:04 PM - Edit history (1)

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #44)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:56 PM

50. See - wrong game

If you play that game then . . .

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #11)

Thu May 10, 2018, 04:24 PM

59. Hey, another '73er here!

Middle-agers represent!

Jan. 30 for me. You?

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Response to True Dough (Reply #59)

Thu May 10, 2018, 04:41 PM

67. Oh - you are a fellow Aquarian

So you 'know'. you know exactly what I'm talking about here - like seriously. I wasn't a goodie goodie and I'm not gonna sugar coat my behavior or hers.


I'm not doing it.



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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #67)

Thu May 10, 2018, 05:09 PM

75. I take no offence to your position whatsoever

and I AM a "goodie goodie!"

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #2)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:19 PM

31. 5 yr olds know you are not supposed to show your...

...underwear to anyone.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #2)

Fri May 11, 2018, 08:37 AM

89. The bragging to friends doesn't persuade me that this was merely consensual.

She was too young and too new to the job to effectively navigate the power dynamics. What she thought she wanted, what she said she wanted and what actually happened may all be different things...but the common denominator was a weak-ass president who never should have permitted even the beginnings of intimacy with an employee.

They own their own choices, but we only elected one of them.

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Response to Orsino (Reply #89)

Fri May 11, 2018, 12:26 PM

92. I dislike treating a 22 year old as a child. If he had made the first move I could see thinking she

 

was pressured or wronged. Instead I see an adult who very freely made a bad decision, and another adult who went along with it. I think she understood the power dynamics pretty well when she tried to pressure him to continue the relationship and eventually exposed it. What I don’t think she thought out were the consequences, but lots of adults donstuoid things too.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #92)

Fri May 11, 2018, 12:39 PM

94. Recognizing the unequal power the two wielded isn't treating either like a child.

The blame goes mostly to the prez who misused his.

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Response to Orsino (Reply #94)

Fri May 11, 2018, 12:46 PM

95. Harassment is pressure, and I'm afraid there was none. I've been harassed and it wasn't my decision

 

There is a huge difference when it’s against your will. This affair was what she desired. I can’t get behind claims that how it happened does not matter. It matters a hell of a lot to people who were actually pressured at the work place for sex, and punished for not going along.
She made huge mistakes, as did Bill and they both suffered the consequences. But she was an adult making choices too.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #95)

Fri May 11, 2018, 12:55 PM

96. The affair wasn't a "mistake," if it was truly consensual.

It was a series of choices, with the president's by far being the worst.

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Response to Orsino (Reply #96)

Fri May 11, 2018, 12:59 PM

97. Well I think both regret their choices and would see it as a mistake.

 

I also think it’s a very very common thing for adults to do. But segments of society wanted vengeance, which they both could have predicted.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #97)

Fri May 11, 2018, 01:04 PM

98. We could convincingly both-sides the matter if they were just two people who didn't work together...

...and if one weren't an intern working for the freakin' president. Whether or not either regrets the affair, it was on one side a terrible misuse of Executive power that set a terrible example for an entire branch of government.

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Response to Orsino (Reply #98)

Fri May 11, 2018, 01:08 PM

99. It doesn't matter to you that she initiated it? I can't agree. I didn't see where he

 

held any power over her head. His power seemed to have attracted her. She continued to work for the government and was free to make her own choices. As a woman who worked w sleezeballs, that’s what matters most to me.
I’m not taking her free will from her, nor did Bill Clinton.

In her recounting of the story, she’s the only one who pressured the other. The power dynamic had flipped and she threatened him. She was never lacking power or freedom.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #99)

Fri May 11, 2018, 01:21 PM

101. It doesn't matter to me who initiated...

...given the likelihood that this was not a scene out of a sitcom in which two people suddenly melt into a passionate embrace. Presumably, it began with flirtation during wihich either party could have demurred. "She started it" would be a weak-ass defense, if he were claiming it as such. He had power over her and her job, and that she wasn't fired is not an indicator of free will.

Government employees are not supposed to have affairs with subordinates. It's bad for morale when inevitably revealed, and the possibility of coercion encourages others, less inclined to seek consent, to do likewise. I don't have a lot of sympathy for the poor old lonely president because that job is supposed to be lonely; everyone around you is supposed to address you as "sir," at least, and you have work to do running a branch of government that is supposed to strive for ethical behavior.

Most of the blame goes to the senior government official who, to a much greater degree than the intern, was well aware of what he should not do.

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Response to Orsino (Reply #101)

Fri May 11, 2018, 01:26 PM

103. In the context of workplace harassment it does matter who initiated it. She should have been fired

 

For literally exposing her ass to a coworker. Not the same as flirting, for fucks sake. She propositioned him.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #103)

Sun May 13, 2018, 06:44 AM

118. In the context of abuse/misuse of power, it matters who had power.

He had a lot, she had a little.

It's a couple of decades too late to attempt to litigate a workplace harassment claim, but we should always remember that in this matter, at least, Bill Clinton set a poor example for how to run a branch of government.

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Response to Orsino (Reply #89)

Sun May 13, 2018, 02:36 PM

127. I so agree with you. His position was an aphrodisiac to her

as it would be to many young women. But he had a responsibility not to respond, regardless of who initiated it.


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Response to Orsino (Reply #89)

Mon May 14, 2018, 09:16 AM

131. Good post.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #2)

Fri May 11, 2018, 01:18 PM

100. yep, in many workplaces, she would have been fired that day

It may show that the tone of the workplace was such that she felt this was something that would be ok. I wish - especially in retrospect - that Bill Clinton's reaction would have been to get her name from an aide - not directly - and told Rahm Emanuel to quietly tell her her internship was over, to go away, and not ask for any kind of reference from the White House. (She was just out of college, the step daughter of a very rich influential man - this would not have destroyed her career AND there would have been no intern scandal)

Her behavior was terrible, but Clinton's was worse as he had the trust of the people who voted for him and he should have been better than this. The cost to us was likely the loss in at least in 2000, where Bush, a mean drunk until he was 40 ran on bringing honor and decency back to the White House.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #100)

Fri May 11, 2018, 01:21 PM

102. I agree completely. Clinton was a huge disappointment, but I can't see holding her up as a victim in

 

any way.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #102)

Fri May 11, 2018, 01:39 PM

105. At worst, she is the victim of her own actions

It is likely she never anticipated that her actions would be such that they will define her for decades. To some real degree, her actions, Clinton's responses, the witch hunt mode the right was in then have made it impossible for her to have the life that she likely otherwise would have had. (Note: She herself has, at points, used that infamy to get attention, she is making things worse.)

As to Clinton, he has paid and will continue to pay a high price. On a personal level, he has to know how badly he hurt his wife and it is possible that he was one of many factors that can be said could have led to her loss. He also lost the last two years of his presidency to some degree. He was able to cartmentalize, but he clearly lost political capital. I don't know what he was unable to do, but I assume that something would have replaced that ugly subject.

Sadly, even as he still retains popularity from people who remember the charisma and hope, it might be that long term, the most known part of his legacy would be that he was impeached, but not removed. For himself, his wife, the Democratic party, the country and the world, it could have been so much better.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #105)

Fri May 11, 2018, 02:18 PM

108. Agreed, I can't say she's to be counted among those who are truly harassed in the workplace-

 

And people who put her there are not thinking of working women who are actually pressured. She is the one who pressured the relationship to continue, and who initiated it. It cheapens the fight against sexual harassment to try to include her, and others, who were instigators.
I’ve no doubt Weinstein had women persue him too. That’s a shitty selfish choice that hurts other women, but it’s still a choice they made.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #2)

Fri May 11, 2018, 02:59 PM

112. Yes, she should have been fired for that behavior.

She should have been reported and fired.

It seems she had grandiose thoughts that Bill C's wife would move out of the White House and she would move in? It sounds like she was the harasser, quite the calculator. But Bill should have had her fired. Not all men would do that, and Bill wasn't one of them, apparently.

I'm so glad to read your post first on this thread, bettyellen! You nailed it again.

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #112)

Fri May 11, 2018, 03:06 PM

113. Thank you! As someone who was harassed at work and fired for refusing my smelly boss...

 

It pisses me off when people try to include this grown woman as a victim of harassment. If anything, she is the type who normalizes fucked up behavior in the workplace and makes it harder for the rest of us not to be viewed that way. From her own words, she flipped the power dynamic and pressured him- that’s awful workplace behavior!

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #113)

Fri May 11, 2018, 03:19 PM

114. Yes it is awful behavior and it has so many ripple effects, like

you said, making it harder for the rest of us. I can't imagine being the wife and thinking some predator was out to shake my world up by seducing my husband (edit, or an office co-worker and watching that dynamic of a woman showing her panties, ugh). I think most women/wives think that way and don't view her as a victim.

Sorry you had to go through that with your boss!

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #114)

Fri May 11, 2018, 03:29 PM

115. Thanks- it totally sucked. A small company w no HR and an owner who does

 

What he wants to is a dangerous recipe. He had a wife and kids, a mistress with another. About six months later I saw him... he’d had a stroke. He caught my eye and it looked like he felt really guilty. I walked out before he could catch up with me. I’m a tough girl but he had such a crappy impact on my life I was kind of terrorized just to see him again.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #115)

Fri May 11, 2018, 08:26 PM

117. That is beyond horrible. I'm sure you were working

for necessities like rent or a car note and instead you are forced into no win situations that are disgusting and/or terrifying either way you go. That is real harassment.

I’ve had a few ugly situations myself. And bizarre things— one time a man called me at home in the evening and invited me to a bar for an “interview”. I had dropped off my resume—this was back in the day when you could still do that — nothing was online. At least he made that one easy as there wasn’t even any pretense. I remember feeling more sad than anything , sad as in feeling like I needed to be taken seriously to pay my bills.

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #117)

Sun May 13, 2018, 01:04 PM

121. Ugh, I had one interview where the guy was cagey, a no show first time. When I showed up the second

 

time, I recognized him as someone who had been scoping me out the first time- when he didn’t show up. Creepy as hell.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Thu May 10, 2018, 02:46 PM

3. I think you need to be one of the participants to answer that.

I am sure there are those who say Bill Clinton had power over her so it could not be consensual.

Still others would say Monica was an opportunist.

Yet there are those who say it was mutual consent so no harm no foul.

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #3)

Thu May 10, 2018, 04:39 PM

65. All you have to do is read the transcript where it is said

that she flashed her thong underwear and bare hip at him.

She issued the invite and he answered, yes!

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #65)

Sun May 13, 2018, 02:08 PM

125. Which is why they were both wrong

She was wrong for flashing and should have been talked to at least to never do that again.

He should have said no and warned someone to watch out for her.

An affair with the boss is wrong for so many reasons. What about the pretty intern working next to Monica who knows that the reason Monica got to travel on that trip or work that job was because she was sleeping with the boss. Is the other intern supposed to sleep with the boss too.

That's why bosses get fired for sleeping with employees. It's toxic for the work environment.

They were both wrong.

Back then the Democratic senators said he should have been officially sanctioned by the senate rather than impeached. I think they should have passed that motion whether he was impeached or not.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Thu May 10, 2018, 02:47 PM

4. It was highly inappropriate sexual conduct by the Big Dog.

 

The power difference was too great, it happened in the workplace, and I highly doubt she was able to think the consequences all of the way through at the time. That's not to say some around here weren't able to.

Came back to give this a rec. It's an important topic in everyday life.


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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Thu May 10, 2018, 02:48 PM

5. she apparently told a friend before her internship

that she was going to get her "presidential knee-pads" on the gig.

Innocent victim... not so much.

OTOH, Clinton did abuse his position of authority over her... no one should engage in sex with a willing or unwilling subordinate.

so its a bit of a mixed bag.

When I was teaching college, I had more than one student make advances to me while I was their instructor. I rebuffed them all as per policy... not to mention it would have felt "creepy" to me.

OTOH, a female student of a different instructor (but taking the same course that I taught) met me via the teacher / student dynamic. After she had moved on to other courses we started dating. I married her when she graduated college (we are only 1 year apart in age).

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Response to lapfog_1 (Reply #5)

Thu May 10, 2018, 02:50 PM

9. They both broke the rules together

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Response to lame54 (Reply #9)

Thu May 10, 2018, 02:52 PM

14. But one of them had power over the other

 

He had a responsibility to say no.

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Response to mythology (Reply #14)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:04 PM

21. At one point he did say no.

The deal was that either of them could stop it at any time. When he tried to, she began to make threats. That's when she was transferred to the Pentagon where she went on to become pregnant by an employee there in 1996 and underwent an abortion. It's in her book.

(excerpt)

Monica Lewinsky had a secret abortion as a result of her affair with a Pentagon employee – in the midst of her scandalous fling with President Clinton, she reveals in her long-awaited book.

Lewinsky was traumatized by the experience – but taunted Clinton with stories about the other man in her life, the book says.

She never told Clinton about the abortion and had to borrow money from an aunt to pay for it.

https://nypost.com/1999/03/04/monica-admits-she-had-a-secret-abortion-book-bares-her-fling-at-pentagon/

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Response to mythology (Reply #14)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:06 PM

26. There are those who would say that a 22year old woman is

a powerful person. There is power in youth (just as long as that youth is over 21).

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Response to mythology (Reply #14)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:36 PM

42. I don't think a power differential necessarily means someone is at fault.

If it is consensual and both are adults, it isn't really up to us to say someone can't sleep with their boss.

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Response to lame54 (Reply #9)

Thu May 10, 2018, 02:55 PM

15. which doesn't make Bill Clinton any less guilty... and he should have known better.

I think his place in History would be so much better had he kept his hands and other appendages to himself.

And we would never have had Bush 2... President Gore might have done something more significant on climate change AND avoided the Great Recession. Maybe. Would have avoided the Iraq war.

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Response to lapfog_1 (Reply #15)

Thu May 10, 2018, 05:26 PM

77. Well ......

I don't know that we would have had a Pres. Gore.

Gore lost New Hampshire, which would have won him the presidency, and if that wasn't bad enough Florida was STOLEN from Gore/Dems by GOP'ers Jeb (Dubya's bro), Kathleen Harris and the Supreme Court. The 2016 election was stolen from Hillary/Dems by tRump, the ruskies and the GOP.

I'm hoping that the theft of 2 General Elections will be remembered in our nation's history. And, there should be NO WAY for us to forget this current tReasonous and worst shit hole in history tRumputin Administration, where we have the United States of America's first RUSSIAN president in our White House. Our foreign policy is being run by ex-KGB agent putin. And this crazy, right-winged, racist, deep state tRumputin byproduct mess is here with us to stay.

As for Bill and Monica.

Bill was a damn fool for getting with a 22 year old intern. He was president of the United States, 49 years old, possessing tremendous power and he should have known better. What in hell was he thinking? Monica was his subordinate.

As for Monica, I remember being 22 years old, and Monica's more bold than I ever was at that age. No way I would have flashed ANYTHING, let alone my thong at a President. When I was working, I was there to serve my patients, and give them the very best care possible. I wasn't at work to get my "groove on." I tend to put Bill/Monica's dalliance as consensual because both were adults, yet at the same time, both were DEAD wrong for what they did.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Thu May 10, 2018, 02:48 PM

6. this has always been problematic to me because though it was consensual, there was power mismatch

So, while there was no presented evidence that she was coerced or faced promises of either positive or negative repercussions from someone who held an immense amount of power relative to her AND even though SHE never felt herself a victim, Clinton's behavior was walking that line as closely as possible to track. Surely it COULD have resulted in sexual harassment charges had she felt inclined to bring them. Had it been someone that was predisposed to cause Clinton "harm", things could have turned out quite differently--even that many years ago.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #6)

Thu May 10, 2018, 04:38 PM

64. She flashed her thong underwear and bare hip at him, so she sexually signaled him.

Yes, there was a power mismatch, but he didn't take advantage of her. He answered her invitation.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Thu May 10, 2018, 02:49 PM

7. A good question. If Clinton were a Republican we would have, and did, scream bloody murder

that it was consensual. We are very forgiving of our own though. Lewinsky was an intern and Clinton was the President of the United States--not exactly equal in power, were they?

Of course it was sexual harassment.

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Response to elocs (Reply #7)

Thu May 10, 2018, 02:52 PM

12. It wasn't sexual harassment because she made the first move

And it was consensual

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Response to JI7 (Reply #12)

Thu May 10, 2018, 04:46 PM

69. That's just sad, and pathetic. The POTUS couldn't resist a young intern.

But then Bill Clinton never claimed to be resolute of pure as driven snow.
If it is one of our own though and sexual harassment comes up we do like to make excuses for them, but pronounce them guilty beyond a doubt if they are a Republican.

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Response to elocs (Reply #69)

Thu May 10, 2018, 04:48 PM

70. He is a cheater, adulterer for sure

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Response to elocs (Reply #69)

Fri May 11, 2018, 03:58 AM

85. Neither Bill or Monica

Were victims. Both showed horrendous judgement. But they were both consenting adults. The only victim was the woman who was cheated on.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Thu May 10, 2018, 02:49 PM

8. No from Clinton

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Thu May 10, 2018, 02:50 PM

10. The difficulty in answering that is why you don't sleep with those you manage

 

Makes life much simpler.

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Response to mythology (Reply #10)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:26 PM

36. Life is complicated.

You know how many relationships have developed from such dynamics? Some last, some don't.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Thu May 10, 2018, 02:52 PM

13. Since Monica supposedly told friends before she went to Washington that she was going to

earn her Presidential knee pads, combined with flashing her thong at Bill, it's hard for me to see her as a victim. That does not mean that I condone Bill's behavior, which was inappropriate, to say the least. In the end, it was a consensual relationship that ended badly for all involved, including the American people.

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Response to Arkansas Granny (Reply #13)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:08 PM

27. Thank you!!!!! And an Amen.

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Response to Arkansas Granny (Reply #13)

Sun May 13, 2018, 02:49 PM

128. Yep.

She was happy to be in that relationship, until everyone found out about it and put her in the spotlight, so it wasn't "harassment." It was just plain, old "I'm led around by my dick" stupidity on Clinton's part. I don't recall that he ever threatened or pressured her in any way.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Thu May 10, 2018, 02:56 PM

16. I Agree that Workplace "Romances" are a Poor Idea-But Do You All Realize How Common it Is?

there are many happy couples who met at work in these situations. When you take the humanity completely out of human relationships I think the concept goes too far. Here's some numbers;

16% met their spouses at work
50%+ have dated a co-worker

those numbers are broken down further in the link

http://www.businessinsider.com/surprising-office-romance-statistics-2016-2

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Response to Stallion (Reply #16)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:27 PM

37. They are super common.

It happened to me.

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Response to Stallion (Reply #16)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:38 PM

43. I agree they are a poor idea but only because they are complicated. There is nothing

inherently ethically wrong about them if both parties welcome the relationship.

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Response to Stallion (Reply #16)

Fri May 11, 2018, 01:27 PM

104. The more prominent the workplace, and the greater the difference in power...

...the poorer an idea it is. The example we're discussing is among the poorest.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Thu May 10, 2018, 02:59 PM

17. There was a disparity in power but it doesn't meet the legal definition of sexual harassment

To meet the legal definition there must be a hostile work environment or a quid pro quo demand for sex.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)


Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:01 PM

20. What's all this about a "power mismatch?" Yes, I know...

... what it is, but unless the power is used to pressure consent then it shouldn't be an issue. Does the White House have one of those stupid infantilizing rules about a subordinate and his/her boss can't have a relationship?

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:05 PM

22. Lewinsky explaining her various evolution on the matter, of which she still does not have an absolut

Lewinsky explaining her various evolution on the matter, of which she still does not have an absolute conclusion writes...

"But it’s also complicated. Very, very complicated. The dictionary definition of “consent”? “To give permission for something to happen.” And yet what did the “something” mean in this instance, given the power dynamics, his position, and my age? Was the “something” just about crossing a line of sexual (and later emotional) intimacy? (An intimacy I wanted — with a 22-year-old’s limited understanding of the consequences.) He was my boss. He was the most powerful man on the planet. He was 27 years my senior, with enough life experience to know better. He was, at the time, at the pinnacle of his career, while I was in my first job out of college. (Note to the trolls, both Democratic and Republican: none of the above excuses me for my responsibility for what happened. I meet Regret every day.)

“This” (sigh) is as far as I’ve gotten in my reevaluation; I want to be thoughtful. But I know one thing for certain: part of what has allowed me to shift is knowing I’m not alone anymore. And for that I am grateful.





She is still examining it in depth (as are we). I'm in no position to tell her what she experienced was, or was not, sexual harassment. She will arrive at her conclusion without my assistance.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #22)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:13 PM

29. Sorry, Monica. At 22 year old you are considered to be an adult. You play by adult rules and you

take your adult knocks if you make a bad decision.

I don't know about others on this board, but at age 22 I was married, a mother of two and running my own household. I knew that having an affair with a married man, regardless of our age difference or my own marital status, would have been a bad idea.

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Response to Arkansas Granny (Reply #29)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:23 PM

33. Thank you.

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Response to Arkansas Granny (Reply #29)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:28 PM

38. Exactly!

At 22, you should know how to manage your sexuality.

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Response to Arkansas Granny (Reply #29)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:42 PM

45. Thank You-I wrote something like that but I was not sure if it would be taken well

part of equality in the workplace is taking responsibility when you are placed in that job. We've had generations of laws protecting the "weaker sex" which really served to patronize women

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Response to Arkansas Granny (Reply #29)

Thu May 10, 2018, 04:49 PM

71. Yet we call 22 year olds "kids" when they can want to stay on their parent's insurance

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Response to MichMan (Reply #71)

Thu May 10, 2018, 05:04 PM

73. Well, I still call mine "kids" and they are in their 40's and 50's.

They have been treated as adults, however, since they were in their late teens.

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Response to MichMan (Reply #71)

Fri May 11, 2018, 01:31 AM

81. that has to do with getting more health care coverage and the reality of things like affordability,

jobs etc.

that doesn't mean 22 don't have other responsibilities.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #22)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:44 PM

47. The three ring circus that eventually formed around her had to have been unbearably difficult.

I wonder if there is any way for her to separate the trauma of that assaultive and total invasion of privacy from the affair itself.


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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #22)

Thu May 10, 2018, 04:22 PM

58. She'd check his schedule

and show up at rope lines, in at least one instance to grope his crotch as he reached over to shake hands with others.

(excerpt)

It is something about the way that Lewinsky is at once so girlish and so brazen that she "playfully" grabs the president's crotch while he is working a rope line, according to the report, but is also so unsure of herself, so filled with need, that she is capable of going "ballistic" when she is ignored.

"I'm an insecure person," Lewinsky is reported to have said; she also reportedly showed up for one tryst at the White House without underwear. She's a person who boasted to her friends of her sexual appetite -- "I was soooo naughty," she writes in an e-mail about a new escapade, not with the president -- and in one note even invited Clinton to a tryst with a reminder of FDR's liaison's with mistress Lucy Mercer.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/daily/beverly0923.htm

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #22)

Thu May 10, 2018, 04:36 PM

63. Here's the part that's not complicated: she flashed her thong underwear and bare hip

at him.

She started it and was a fully engaged partner. Then she went and bragged about it to a friend.

He was STUPID, but she was NOT a victim.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:05 PM

24. That's really got her to say, and she never has called it harassment.

It's certainly a bad idea for a boss to engage in sexual activity with a workplace subordinate because the subordinate might not feel free to say no. So the boss really has to presume any such activity would be unethical no matter what the subordinate says at the time.

In this case, call it luck or a good read or whatever, but she never said it was under any pressure so it wasn't harassment.

Even so, it's still a bad idea because others in the workplace might then feel pressure to engage in similar activity to get any workplace rewards she might have gotten.

So I would still call it inappropriate even if it's not, strict speaking, sexual harassment.


Note that when I say "inappropriate", I mean enough so that it could still lead to creating a hostile work environment, so a company that allows such activity could easily be in legal hot soup even if the participants in the sexual activity say there was no harassment.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:06 PM

25. If we are to believe the story that she came hunting for an encounter


with the Big Dog and he rarely turned down an offer of sex (or sexlike behavior) if he was in the mood (apparently rather frequently), then this fling between the two of them should not surprise anyone. There was bad judgment on both sides of that equation. Perhaps Clinton deserves more of the bad press because of his age and the dangerous consequences that could and did happen once it was revealed. But Monica was no angel as she she knew what she was doing since Clinton’s reputation as a womanizer was well known. When she flashed her thong, she probably had a clue what would happen next.

So the two of them tangoed and got caught. Bill had some punishment and a red face moment or two. But Monica was branded and forever wears the mark of shame, while Bill has gone on to bigger and better things. That pretty much seems to be way things go until recently. When enough times goes by we’ll see what happens to both parties involved in these kinds of affairs in the age of learning the difference between harassment and consensual sex.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:11 PM

28. No comment. I married my assistant and we've been married 35 years.

😀

Ps: first and only marriage for both of us.

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Response to 4139 (Reply #28)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:15 PM

30. I think I may have made your comment for you. See reply #20. nt

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:20 PM

32. She was not in a position to decline consent.

Not only was Clinton her boss, but he was President of the United States. I’m not suggesting that Lewinsky was not a consensual participant, but any objectively reasonable young woman (or man) in her circumstances would have had difficulty withholding consent from Mr. Clinton, which would have risked her continuing employment and any possible references or political appointment she aspired to. If it weren’t Clinton, but a CEO of a company, there very likely would have been a Title VII lawsuit alleging quid pro quo sexual harassment, and a sizable settlement would have been paid out to Ms. Lewinsky. Ms. Lewinsky may not have exercised great judgment, but she has paid dearly for that youthful lapse for over 20 years. I feel sorry for her.

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Response to djg21 (Reply #32)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:26 PM

35. This attitude infantilizes people (usually women). nt

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Response to LAS14 (Reply #35)

Fri May 11, 2018, 08:41 AM

90. Her position infantilized her relative to his.

What the fuck is a goddamned president doing, being alone with an intern? What the fuck was his more senior staff not doing, that Lewinsky was needed anywhere near him?

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Response to djg21 (Reply #32)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:31 PM

39. Interesting perspective, bit I disagree.

Either one of them could have said no. They didn't. You might regret it later, but that's life.

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Response to djg21 (Reply #32)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:35 PM

41. Sure doesn't sound like she wanted to decline.

At least at the time. But yea, lets make her a victim while we are at it.

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Response to djg21 (Reply #32)

Thu May 10, 2018, 04:30 PM

61. She was an intern, not an employee. As an intern she had a boss who was over the interns

and it was not Bill Clinton. When she flashed her thong covered ass at the president in a hallway, she was signaling that she was a volunteer, not a victim. She also was over the age of consent, and Bill Clinton was not the first married man she had an affair with. She also had an affair with a college professor at the college she attended, while working for him in his home babysitting his and his wife's children in their home. This was prior to going to D.C. as a volunteer intern. She saw what she wanted in both cases and she went after it.

If she was victimized by anyone it was Linda Tripp who she thought was her friend, and who she told every detail of her affair with the president. Tripp betrayed her by telling all her secrets to Lucianne Goldberg, a repub who published a gossip website and spilled all the beans.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Reply #61)

Thu May 10, 2018, 05:10 PM

76. Clinton was her boss.

There is no credible argument to the contrary. I may directly report to my boss, but ultimately, I have to answer to the person at the top of the organizational chart, and if I displease that person, my employment is in jeopardy. It is no different when serving as an employee or intern for an elected official. You ultimately serve at the will of that official, who has the authority to direct that you be terminated.

When Lewinsky flashed her thong, she displayed a lack of decorum that was professionally inappropriate and unacceptable. Clinton should have known better, and should have directed that she be transferred, disciplined or fired. He stepped into it when he got involved with her. What if she had a change of heart after flashing her thong? Was she not allowed to say “no”? Could she have said “no” if she wanted to?

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Response to djg21 (Reply #32)

Thu May 10, 2018, 04:34 PM

62. Yes, she was. He didn't ask her to flash her thong at him --that was HER way of initiating this.

I don't feel one bit sorry for her. Till sometime very recently, she argued all along that she was a fully consenting adult, and this all started when she pulled down the top edge of her skirt and showed him her thong underwear.

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Response to djg21 (Reply #32)

Thu May 10, 2018, 05:08 PM

74. Your point is valid, but completely moot in this instance

She wanted to have sex with Clinton before she was even on the job.

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Response to djg21 (Reply #32)

Fri May 11, 2018, 01:49 PM

107. Your statement is incorrect from the get go. He did not ask her, she approached and asked him.

 

You can ask whether Bill Clinton consented or not since he was the person propositioned.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:24 PM

34. Consensual. Two adults decided to have sex. Period.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:33 PM

40. Bill Clinton was totally irresponsible but the afffair was consensual.

Monica was victimized by Ken Starr and her 'friend' Linda Tripp as well as Maureen Dowd and the NYT.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Thu May 10, 2018, 03:42 PM

46. Monica went to the job hoping to have an affair. She initiated it.

That is not sexual harassment IMO.

Bill can be criticized for the relationship, but that doesn't make it harassment.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Thu May 10, 2018, 04:04 PM

52. You know what? No,and that sleeping dog should be let alone.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Thu May 10, 2018, 04:14 PM

56. No. nt

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Thu May 10, 2018, 04:15 PM

57. Why are we still re-hashing this shit?

Which angle of this story has not already been analyzed ad nauseam?

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Thu May 10, 2018, 04:29 PM

60. "Don't get your sex where you get your checks."

That's essentially what it boils down to.

I put more blame on Bill because he was older and should have known better.

But what happened as a result of the affair to Monica? Having to be relocated because the affair was going to come out certainly protected Bill, and at least she wasn't completely fired, but still, she technically lost her job. Becoming a punchline? That all sucked. Far more than the "crime" of screwing around with your boss deserves.

Bill was the one with enough life experience to have foreseen these issues. That's why I blame him more. But Mom taught me that line when I was a teenager. In general, it's good advice.

Now, why on earth are we talking about this?

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Thu May 10, 2018, 04:40 PM

66. I think the aftermath has many of the qualities of sexual harrassment.

If I recall correctly...

When the relationship was over, Monica had to leave and was moved out to a less prestigious posting.

When the relationship was discovered, Monica was made to be the liar.

What the relationship was proven true, Monica was made to look like a bad woman.

Sometimes things start consensually but then the relationship ends up hurting the less powerful subordinate. Of course, Bill was made to pay a price, too.

Ultimately, it was Bill's responsibility to not get in a relationship with a subordinate because it was a conflict of interest on his part.


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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Thu May 10, 2018, 05:02 PM

72. A therapist would lose a license even if the client initiated things.

And I don’t mean a broken, deeply dependent one; that is a clear issue. But it’s important to recognize that feelings happen that MUST not be acted upon and the imbalance of power is huge even when it’s not terribly obvious.

I think this applies. He was in a job that leads to fantasies and the desire to be deemed desirable by a powerful person. She was young and vulnerable and I don’t care if she stripped naked and danced on the desk. His job was to be the adult and say no.

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Response to nolabear (Reply #72)

Fri May 11, 2018, 05:41 AM

87. +1

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Thu May 10, 2018, 06:01 PM

79. When you go into your boss' office and show him your drawers, you waive the sexual harassment claim

Just a note for future reference...

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #79)

Fri May 11, 2018, 02:44 PM

110. Yep.

See my post downthread -- a distillation, if you will, of having watched this unfold as an adult.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Thu May 10, 2018, 08:03 PM

80. She was a vulnerable needy person who went

after Clinton but he should've had nothing to do with her. I've heard she went after others too but they saw her for what she was and turned her down. I blame both but blame Bill more, he was older and in a postion of authority and should've known better.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Fri May 11, 2018, 02:30 AM

82. Back in the 80s a classmate

Dated a teacher. She was a senior and after graduation they got married. Still married and grandparents now.

My opinion is that Monica was not a victim. She got what she wanted. Bill was an idiot and got hooked by her bait. He’s guilty of being disloyal and being stupid.

Monica is guilty of baiting him, a married man and then when he tried to break it off she ratted.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Fri May 11, 2018, 02:37 AM

83. She had already had a long affair with a married man.

Followed him when he left California. She set out to seduce Bill and he was stupid and weak getting involved with her.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Fri May 11, 2018, 05:35 AM

86. Not only consentual

She initiated the relationship, and went into the job intending to try and seduce him. Bill Clinton was an idiot, and the relationship was inappropriate, but this was in no way harassment.

And while we are talking about the "power dynamic", once the relationship started that dynamic changed, because she had the ability to threaten to reveal what happened.

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Response to dansolo (Reply #86)

Fri May 11, 2018, 08:43 AM

91. Another good point. n/t

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Fri May 11, 2018, 06:44 AM

88. Was it harassment? No, Probably not

No one can say that she didn't go into it totally willingly, but we can also say that this affair ruined (or at least drastically changed) her life.
Even today, she still gets disinvited from things, while he gets adoration, and that is sad.
I honestly don't think she was emotionally ready for the affair, and for that I do blame him 100%. Even though she came onto him, it was his responsibility as her boss to end it before it began.
So although it wasn't harassment, he did take advantage of her, and that is NEVER right.

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Response to forthemiddle (Reply #88)

Sun May 13, 2018, 07:20 AM

120. One needs to have mental guardrails

 

While Monica Lewinsky probably had a crush on Clinton .. it was his job to put space between them. He would do that if had respected himself and loved Hillary. Monica gave him attention and he encouraged her.

So totally Bill Clinton's fault.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Fri May 11, 2018, 12:38 PM

93. She says not

She also says something to the effect that she felt her youth and inexperience was taken advantage of, but that she takes responsibility for her own actions. Bill Clinton may have been a brilliant man on several levels,but he was also a pig. I never voted for him. I remember thinking Hillary must have stayed with him out of a love of country— they were powerful people, and the Republicans went after them with everything they had.

Interesting Republicans ended up to electing a clear reflection of themselves like Trump, who is a much bigger pig than Bill Clinton

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Fri May 11, 2018, 01:47 PM

106. They both...

...behaved poorly, in my opinion. I do feel a little more sorry for her because she doesn't get the same pass a young man would get... young women are not expected to be as sexually active... and are made to feel ashamed for enjoying the sexual act - oral sex - she performed.






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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Fri May 11, 2018, 02:43 PM

109. Ah, in Spring the perennials bloom. No, Monica and Bill were a match made in Fool's Paradise...

Last edited Fri May 11, 2018, 04:02 PM - Edit history (1)

She was a vey foolish young woman, naively believing she could pull the same tricks with the leader of the free world that she had pulled on her college deans -- even boasting about her plans to her college friend. Naive, but not innocent. Young, but over the age of consent by quite a few years.

He was an older man at the vortex of world power, surrounded by people who had already spent years trying to destroy him and his wife. Brilliant, really brilliant, but driven by inexplicable (to me) impulses more suited to a teenage boy. She came on to him, flashing her thong at him in the office, and he was too self-indulgent to ask her to leave and tell his people to reassign her ass to the political equivalent of Siberia.

Victimhood? Oh, please. She asked. He answered.

Both of these fools -- and Hillary, who did nothing wrong -- ended up being victimized by the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy and Kenneth Starr.

The POTUS survived, barely. The Intern was damaged for life, by her account. Some behaviors have consequences far beyond what you would imagine -- kind of like drinking at a party and driving afterward. It was fun while it lasted, but then there was the pileup in which someone was killed and someone was crippled for life, and people end up before a judge saying they didn't mean for any of that bad stuff to happen.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #109)

Sun May 13, 2018, 01:17 PM

124. I totally agree. nt

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Fri May 11, 2018, 02:46 PM

111. Consensual

I've not seen anything in the decades that have followed to suggest it was anything other than consensual.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Sun May 13, 2018, 07:02 AM

119. Well, she shown him her thong

and was the initiator ...

am thinking ... not

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Sun May 13, 2018, 01:14 PM

122. I've worked at corporate law firms my entire life, and young women seeking out powerful men was ...

common. Sometimes it worked out, but mostly, it did not. Men see this a perk of being powerful in an organization. Things changed a little after Anita Hill. Firms became more aggressive about this behavior. You had to sign a consent document with HR if you chose to have a relationship in the office. Today, the MeToo movement has thrown even more cold water on this.

Sexual harassment is defined as unwanted romantic/sexual attention or a quid pro quo for career advancement. I don't see that in this case, but Bill did take advantage of his power over a young woman. Bad judgment? Yes. Sexual harassment? No.

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Response to Yavin4 (Reply #122)

Sun May 13, 2018, 01:16 PM

123. Well stated. nt

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Sun May 13, 2018, 02:25 PM

126. God WHO CARES.....I haven't thought about Monica Lewinsky for 10 years!!

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Sun May 13, 2018, 03:46 PM

129. I thought she was a predator

intent on the then president as her prey. Sometimes I think she was a republicon plant, Bill did have a willy problem and she used it.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Original post)

Mon May 14, 2018, 09:20 AM

132. Older man, in a position of power..

young women taken advantage of.. yes, in a way. People that blame Lewinsky & absolve Clinton are just being disingenuous.. I see it on twitter a lot..

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