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Mon Apr 16, 2018, 09:44 AM

Too many people are blaming Hillary's loss on the wrong thing.

They misremember:
Gerrymandering
Tossing people off the voter rolls
Cambridge Analytica
Facebook info stolen with targeted ads
Hacking the DNC and releasing same
Voter ID requirements put in place to keep people from voting
Russia hacking into state's election records (and no vote changing?) Don't believe that.
Russia putting money into facebook campaign ads - illegally
Russia putting money into the NRA - illegally


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Arrow 114 replies Author Time Post
Reply Too many people are blaming Hillary's loss on the wrong thing. (Original post)
shraby Apr 2018 OP
angstlessk Apr 2018 #1
unblock Apr 2018 #6
dchill Apr 2018 #29
sl8 Apr 2018 #55
Marty Marzipan Apr 2018 #56
calimary Apr 2018 #63
icnorth Apr 2018 #69
olegramps Apr 2018 #53
Amaryllis Apr 2018 #101
halobeam Apr 2018 #2
LiberalLovinLug Apr 2018 #96
Amaryllis Apr 2018 #102
safeinOhio Apr 2018 #3
shraby Apr 2018 #4
certainot Apr 2018 #43
7962 Apr 2018 #25
unblock Apr 2018 #5
Arkansas Granny Apr 2018 #7
Stonepounder Apr 2018 #24
Arkansas Granny Apr 2018 #76
moose65 Apr 2018 #52
Kirk Lover Apr 2018 #8
Shipwack Apr 2018 #45
Martin Eden Apr 2018 #70
lame54 Apr 2018 #9
lunatica Apr 2018 #13
Kentonio Apr 2018 #14
lunatica Apr 2018 #19
lame54 Apr 2018 #23
lunatica Apr 2018 #27
ehrnst Apr 2018 #37
lame54 Apr 2018 #40
ehrnst Apr 2018 #54
DownriverDem Apr 2018 #59
dchill Apr 2018 #32
ehrnst Apr 2018 #16
lame54 Apr 2018 #22
ehrnst Apr 2018 #36
Jakes Progress Apr 2018 #87
ehrnst Apr 2018 #95
BlueMTexpat Apr 2018 #71
Post removed Apr 2018 #86
NRaleighLiberal Apr 2018 #10
pnwest Apr 2018 #11
NewJeffCT Apr 2018 #17
RandomAccess Apr 2018 #21
RhodeIslandOne Apr 2018 #28
Ligyron Apr 2018 #35
EffieBlack Apr 2018 #12
hueymahl Apr 2018 #31
EffieBlack Apr 2018 #67
hueymahl Apr 2018 #78
YOHABLO Apr 2018 #15
BigmanPigman Apr 2018 #18
certainot Apr 2018 #49
Neema Apr 2018 #20
elocs Apr 2018 #26
CrispyQ Apr 2018 #81
eallen Apr 2018 #30
Sophia4 Apr 2018 #51
elocs Apr 2018 #90
Orsino Apr 2018 #33
NurseJackie Apr 2018 #34
sl8 Apr 2018 #38
Hekate Apr 2018 #77
sl8 Apr 2018 #85
bucolic_frolic Apr 2018 #39
Sophia4 Apr 2018 #41
Hekate Apr 2018 #79
TexasBushwhacker Apr 2018 #42
Cartoonist Apr 2018 #44
zipplewrath Apr 2018 #50
TygrBright Apr 2018 #46
cutroot Apr 2018 #47
BobTheSubgenius Apr 2018 #48
jeffreyi Apr 2018 #57
MrModerate Apr 2018 #58
Nitram Apr 2018 #60
elias7 Apr 2018 #61
lovemydogs Apr 2018 #62
dajoki Apr 2018 #64
nolabels Apr 2018 #75
Denis 11 Apr 2018 #65
mountain grammy Apr 2018 #66
Mountain Mule Apr 2018 #68
andym Apr 2018 #72
northremembers Apr 2018 #73
LiberalLovinLug Apr 2018 #97
mcar Apr 2018 #110
Hekate Apr 2018 #74
lunamagica Apr 2018 #80
UCmeNdc Apr 2018 #82
debsy Apr 2018 #83
Honeycombe8 Apr 2018 #84
ecstatic Apr 2018 #88
diane in sf Apr 2018 #89
karin_sj Apr 2018 #91
ananda Apr 2018 #92
JCanete Apr 2018 #93
radius777 Apr 2018 #94
KY_EnviroGuy Apr 2018 #98
bluecollar2 Apr 2018 #99
progressoid Apr 2018 #103
bluecollar2 Apr 2018 #106
Amaryllis Apr 2018 #100
DylanUSC Apr 2018 #104
brooklynite Apr 2018 #105
StevieM Apr 2018 #109
Turbineguy Apr 2018 #107
Lil Missy Apr 2018 #108
R B Garr Apr 2018 #112
Post removed Apr 2018 #114
barbtries Apr 2018 #111
Awsi Dooger Apr 2018 #113

Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:02 AM

1. Touche (with the tilde)

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Response to angstlessk (Reply #1)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:14 AM

6. Accent acute ('accent aigu' in French)

The tilde is the squiggly line, e.g., over an 'n' in Spanish.

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Response to unblock (Reply #6)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:59 AM

29. Accent aigu...

é, title line security risk.

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Response to dchill (Reply #29)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:54 AM

55. Touché n/t

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Response to sl8 (Reply #55)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:56 AM

56. Alt + 130

will get you a é.

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Response to Marty Marzipan (Reply #56)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 12:12 PM

63. Welcome to DU, Marty Marzipan!

Aha! Does that mean the alt key and the + sign and then 130? Technology often stumps me.

Thanks, in any event.

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Response to calimary (Reply #63)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 12:32 PM

69. Depress and hold "alt" key

while you input numeric value 130 = "é"

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Response to angstlessk (Reply #1)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:53 AM

53. Include the Electoral College in the list.

The Founding Fathers discussed this issues at length in the Federalist Papers and offered the Electoral College as a compromise to succeed in obtaining ratification of the Constitution. It was supposedly designed to protect the minority. Nearly every election, especially most recent elections, has had the losing party question its validity creating a catch-22 situation. The winning party isn't going to allow the validity of election, although not receiving the majority of votes, be in question. I am of the opinion that it should and must be change to reflect the reality of citizen concentration in urban areas. This irregularity is also associated with the critical problem of gerrymandering. There were several compromises made due to the urgency of obtaining ratification. That two senators from each state regardless of the number of citizens was also a compromise that was even further compromised when they were appointed by their legislatures. This rule was changed and the electoral college system should have been abolished at that time. By any type of reasoning, it isn't acceptable that a person can lose the election yet win the popular vote by millions. Hope of changing it on national level is probably hopeless. A very possible solution is on a state level in which the totality of the votes cast would determine their weighed vote nationally. A handful of states have made attempts but to date they are not actually different from the present system by providing system of proportional allotment of electors, but again this can be construed by gerrymandering.

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Response to olegramps (Reply #53)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 08:09 PM

101. That too.

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:05 AM

2. Crosscheck mhm

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Response to halobeam (Reply #2)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 05:24 PM

96. beat me to it

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #96)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 08:10 PM

102. Beat me to it also but OP did mention database purges.

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:06 AM

3. You are correct, but....

If I spend too much time looking in the rear view mirror, I tend to smash into things ahead of me.

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #3)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:08 AM

4. Yup. Just needed to remind people there is more to the story they tend to spout.

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Response to shraby (Reply #4)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:30 AM

43. don't forget 1500 coordinated radio stations

making much on your list possible in the first place

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #3)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:49 AM

25. Have to remember that saying. nt

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:11 AM

5. Also disenfranchisement and selective placement of polling places

There's zero justification to take away someone's vote based on a criminal conviction other than for republicans to manipulate the vote.

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:15 AM

7. Yes, she was so much better candidate than Trump that it took all of that to put him ahead.

I hope one day that those who voted for Trump will realize what a horrible mistake they made.

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Response to Arkansas Granny (Reply #7)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:46 AM

24. Even the Russians are having second thoughts I suspect.

You will NEVER convince me that the three blue states that went for Trump by just enough votes to not need a recount were 'won' by voters and not Russian hackers. And remember that Hillary won the popular vote by 3,000,000 votes.

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Response to Stonepounder (Reply #24)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 02:01 PM

76. I doubt we will ever know all that happened in that election. My biggest fear is that nothing

is being done to avoid a repeat in 2018 and 2020. Trumpco isn't making any effort to improve the voting process.

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Response to Arkansas Granny (Reply #7)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:50 AM

52. Yep!

Even with ALL of that, she still got almost 3 million more votes and only lost by 80,000 votes in 3 states. I don't think they'll be able to overcome all of the pissed off people this fall or in 2020. Blue WAVE!!

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:16 AM

8. It was a shit storm conglomerate of fucked up things. The End.

 

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Response to Kirk Lover (Reply #8)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:33 AM

45. +1000 nt

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Response to Kirk Lover (Reply #8)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 01:12 PM

70. Yes it was -- including Comey's October Surprise

Any one of a number of factors could have tipped the extremely close votes in the key Electoral states.

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:18 AM

9. Including Hillary

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Response to lame54 (Reply #9)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:22 AM

13. Then why did she win the popular vote

Which by the way, is the actual counting of the votes as cast by people.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #13)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:24 AM

14. She was running against Donald Trump.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #14)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:33 AM

19. A cryptic response meaning nothing

If you have something substantive to add, please feel free to do so.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #13)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:45 AM

23. Why the civics lesson...

Hillary blamed Comey for her loss

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Response to lame54 (Reply #23)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:54 AM

27. I read your remark as Hillary being the cause of her loss

But after your question I re-read the OP and your response and I see what you meant. My apologies!

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Response to lame54 (Reply #23)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:11 AM

37. Actually....

“There are lots of reasons why an election like this is not successful,” Mrs. Clinton said, according to a donor who relayed the remarks. But, she added, “our analysis is that Comey’s letter raising doubts that were groundless, baseless, proven to be, stopped our momentum.”

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #37)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:19 AM

40. That's a different interview

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Response to lame54 (Reply #40)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:54 AM

54. From November 2016. Why don't you post a link to the interview you are referring to? (nt)

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Response to lame54 (Reply #23)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 12:02 PM

59. Part of it

All that has been mentioned adds up to HRC losing. I think left leaners who voted 3rd party or not at all should be on that list too. We have a two party system. Why folks don't get that is dangerous.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #13)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:03 AM

32. "the actual counting of the votes as cast"

would have yielded a substantially larger number, IMO. Had that occurred.

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Response to lame54 (Reply #9)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:27 AM

16. What "wrong thing" is HRC "blaming"? (nt)

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #16)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:44 AM

22. In an interview after the election...

She layed it square on Comey

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Response to lame54 (Reply #22)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:08 AM

36. No, she talked about a lot of things, not just Comey.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #36)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 04:04 PM

87. Awww. Your facts are messing up his meme.

Can't let truth get in the way you know. Those russian bots got to a lot of people.

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Response to Jakes Progress (Reply #87)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 05:19 PM

95. Don't they, tho?

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:18 AM

10. The election was stolen. Period. Hillary won the popular vote bigly.

Got to get to the root cause and fix it.

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:19 AM

11. I blame one thing - votes were flipped.

I am convinced that Russians, or Republicans, hacked machines in those few specific counties that were needed to swing the electoral college to where it needed to be to ensure a Republican win. You will never convince me otherwise.

Despite the Comey thing Hillary had three million more votes than shitstain. Despite everything else, America spoke loudly and clearly that they wanted Hillary. The presidency was stolen from her, and from us, right under our noses.

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Response to pnwest (Reply #11)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:28 AM

17. That would not surprise me at all

I mean, if Russia can get into the machines to look at voter rolls, are they really going to be content with just looking at the voter rolls?

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Response to pnwest (Reply #11)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:39 AM

21. I blame that too - plus all of the above

 

We've got to deal with all of it.

And the Cambridge Analytica piece is by no means small.

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Response to pnwest (Reply #11)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:58 AM

28. This

Flipping a few votes in few dozen counties in WI, PA and MI is so imperceptible it’s effective.

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Response to pnwest (Reply #11)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:07 AM

35. It's far from the only occurrence too.

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:19 AM

12. History will not be kind to us, but it WILL be VERY kind to Hillary

That gives me some, albeit small, comfort.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #12)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:00 AM

31. Hope you are right

I have my doubts.

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Response to hueymahl (Reply #31)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 12:25 PM

67. I am certain of it

Once the historians get the narrative away from the journalists who were complicit in the reprehensible treatment of her - and they will, they always do - the story will be told.

I just hope it happens in her lifetime so she will get at least part of her due.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #67)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 02:11 PM

78. Me too. NT

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:25 AM

15. The Republicans know they can't win without some low down dirty manipulation.

They don't give a shit if they had to get help from the Russians. They'll just keep on using the same tactics as shraby mentioned and more, unless we start dramatically changing our electoral system.

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:30 AM

18. Don't forget MSM giving the moron tons of free air time

and never focusing on Hillary and her solutions on the issues as opposed to an empty stage for 20 min witing for the moron to speak to his cult.

That said, COMEY is the first, biggest and obvious reason for her loss. Period!

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Response to BigmanPigman (Reply #18)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:39 AM

49. if trump paid $1000/hr for radio advertising the radio that dems ignore is worth $18M/day FREE

or $5BIL/year

that's the whole reason comey felt the pressure to do that - that's the real reason for the pressure, and if dems stopped ignoring it the country and comey would have known most of it was nothing to worry about, and coming out of the asses of limbaugh and a few hundred wannabes on 1500 radio stations.

his cult are dittoheads

the russians knew it and that's why trumps bunch were told to study talk radio in 2014 to prep for the elections (gabriel sherman - new york magazine 4/3/16)- so they could coordinate trolling and messaging

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:34 AM

20. Using the cards up your sleeve isn't winning the card game, robbing a bank isn't earning money,

stealing an election isn't winning an election.

I was just saying yesterday how sick to death I am of people (especially progressives) saying "This is why Hillary lost" or "This is why 45 won." HE. DIDN'T. WIN.

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:51 AM

26. On election day there was only 1 thing left to do that was within our power

and that was to get out and vote for Hillary Clinton, the one and only candidate who could have stopped Trump from winning the presidency. Apparently many on the Left were either like Comey and were sure that Clinton would win or they hated her as much as anyone on the right who voted for Trump.

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Response to elocs (Reply #26)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 02:29 PM

81. This:

"...vote for Hillary Clinton, the one and only candidate who could have stopped Trump from winning the presidency."


63 million of our fellow citizens thought this vulgar man was more qualified to be president than HRC. What the goddamned fuck?

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:59 AM

30. And the biggie: the electoral college itself

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Response to eallen (Reply #30)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:49 AM

51. Right.

 

In any case, if we had a direct vote for president, it would not be possible to determine the outcome by tampering with votes in a few precincts or states.

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Response to eallen (Reply #30)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 04:38 PM

90. We all know how presidents are elected and had Clinton won the way Trump did

I doubt that we would be complaining about the Electoral College at all.

It's kind of like the loser of the World Series claiming they should be the champs since they scored more runs even though their opponent won 4 close games but lost one game by a score of 10-1. It's not the runs you score, but the goal is to win 4 games. It's not the popular votes you get, but the goal is to win 270 electoral votes.

In the end nobody seemed more surprised he had won than Donald Trump himself.
In my state of Wisconsin, 23,000 people chose to vote for Jill Stein and that was about Trump's margin of victory. In Milwaukee County, 55,000 fewer people voted than in 2012 and 2/3 of that number typically would have voted Democratic. So close was the election here and yet Clinton chose not to make a single general election campaign stop in Wisconsin.
We have met the enemy and the enemy is us.

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:04 AM

33. Millennia of sexism...decades of Clinton mythology on cable news.

There is no one explanation, and never will be. We will never even be able to measure the specific effect of any of the factors at work.

Fortunately, this leaves everyone free to blame his or her favorite, and to pretend that the others don't exist. Fun!

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:04 AM

34. I know exactly who you mean.

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:13 AM

38. What effect did gerrymandering have?

Does this have something to do with Maine?

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Response to sl8 (Reply #38)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 02:05 PM

77. It has to do with many states engaging in this practice to ensure the favored party wins

The info is out there, abundantly. Sorry my iPad doesn't cooperate.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #77)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 03:32 PM

85. How did gerrymandering affect the 2016 Presidential election?

Assuming we're talking about gerrymandering of Congressional districts, I was wondering how the OP thought it affected Clinton adversely in the 2016 election.

NE and ME can split their respective electoral votes, so, in theory, that could have an effect. NE didn't split theirs, but ME did. Is that what OP is talking about?

Is there some other effect gerrymandered Congressional districts might have on Presidential election, given that the other 48 states allocate all electoral votes based on the winner of the popular vote of the state as a whole?

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:17 AM

39. It was a volatile electorate for those underlying causes

Democrats were not addressing hometown America too well

In an ordinary election year, Comey's letter that Gowdy released would have had less impact, if that is the purpose of your OP.
No way they knew it was a gamechanger to the extent it was.

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:24 AM

41. Add: Millions of Californians are disenfranchised by the electoral college.

 

If you doubt me, do the math.

What is one vote of one voter worth in small states like Montana, Wyoming, Vermont, etc. with populations under 2 million compared to one vote of one voter worth in California, population over 38 million?

To begin, seven states have fewer than one million in population. They are Wyoming with 582,658, Vermont, D.C. (I know not a state), North Dakota, Alaska, South Dakota and Delaware. Then there are Montana, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, Maine, Hawaii, Idaho, West Virginia and Nebraska with populations of less than 2 million (each with less than the 3 million votes by which Hillary won the popular vote).

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/usa/states/population.shtml

I'm not going to do the details of the math here although I have done it before. These tiny states, however, added up together have at most 17 million in population less than half the population of California with over 38 million, probably closer to 39 million. I'm using conservative numbers on the populations of all of these states.

These states that have altogether a population less than half that of California, yet these small states altogether have a total of 47 electors, at least three electors each. Add the populations of these states together and it represents a relatively tiny population of the United States compared to the 38, nearly 39 million in California. Yet California has only 55 electors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_College_(United_States)

Do the math. A group of very special, tiny, little states (in terms of population) have around twice per person the number of electors that California has. NEARLY twice. The vote of a Californian counts for less than one half the vote of a voter in Montana.

And we preach democracy to the rest of the world???? How is that????

Here is why this outrageous injustice exists.

Each of these tiny states gets an elector for each its representatives allotted for every so many residents PLUS two, that's 2 electors for its senators. California gets an elector for each of its 53 representatives and 2 for its 2 senators.

I know the term "disenfranchisement" sounds extreme, and I am probably making a lot of you angry, but that word accurately describes what the electoral college does to Californians and, to a lesser extent, to Texans and those who live in New York and Florida and other larger states.

We need to elect our president directly so that every vote is counted equally. To actually have a president that represents all who live in America, all Americans, we need to do away with the electoral college.

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Response to Sophia4 (Reply #41)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 02:13 PM

79. Thank you, Sophia4, from this Californian

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:30 AM

42. Add the fact that it's hard as hell to keep one party in the WH for more than 8 years

Other than GHWB for 1 term after Reagan, since Truman left office, we tend to go back and forth between Dems and GOP.

Truman Dem
Eisenhower Rep
Kennedy/Johnson Dem
Nixon Rep
Carter Dem 1 term
Reagan/GHW Bush Rep 3 terms
Clinton Dem
GW Bush Rep
Obama Dem
Trump Rep

IT WAS ALWAYS AN UPHILL BATTLE. I think we forgot that. HRC wasn't the shoe in we thought she was. The election was decided by swing states. Actually it was decided by swing voters in swing states. Add to that the folks who voted for Obama who just stayed home in those states.

We need a candidate and a platform that generates the enthusiasm that Obama did. We need to win back all those voters who traditionally vote for the Democrat who either stayed home or had a brain fart and voted for Trump, Stein and Thompson. We need to register voters and GOTV. Obviously we need to fight voter suppression and Russian tampering, but that IS NOT ENOUGH.

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:32 AM

44. Small nit-pick

Gerrymandering has no effect statewide. I mention it only because you put it at the top of the list.

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Response to Cartoonist (Reply #44)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:49 AM

50. Yeah, I'm still not sure what the OP's point was

I wasn't sure if it was a list of what DIDN'T cause the loss.

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:35 AM

46. Those are the fixable things, yep. Misogyny, not so much. n/t

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:36 AM

47. I blame voter apathy

The media made it look so lopsided that many people thought that it was okay to take the day off. The Democrats should have crushed him. Many thought it was in the bag so why not relax. The republicans took advantage of this aberration.

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:38 AM

48. And it still wouldn't have taken many of those situations being reversed.

And the world wouldn't be in the tenuous mess we see today.

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:57 AM

57. Hillary didn't lose.

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:57 AM

58. Yes, but . . .

Campaigns need to be won in the face of all opposition, or you . . . lose.

And sometime history does turn on "want of a nail."

If Comey hadn't reopened the email case two weeks before the election, Clinton would be president.
If Clinton had never uttered the word 'deplorables,' she'd be president.
If Podesta (or the other 19 Clinton staffers) had a clue about email hygiene and phishing attacks, Clinton would be in the White House today.

And, of course, if all the systemic abuses you list didn't exist and if Clinton didn't have the largest baggage train in political history and had made fewer tactical and strategic errors.

And if millions of people like me hadn't said, "Americans are not stupid enough to put Trump in the White House." (Although I'm not sure what I'd have done if I'd seen Trump's win coming.)

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 12:02 PM

60. Most off us haven't forgotten, shraby. Thanks for reminding those who have.

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 12:03 PM

61. Orchestrating October surprise 11 days before election

Giuliani foreshadowed "big surprise" 2 days before announcement.

A number of threads here discuss investigation into the finding of emails on Weiner's laptop, the delay in Comey's stated awareness of them, the forces in the FBI in conjunction with Trump folks to force Comey's hand in releasing the info, etc. Erik Prince apparently involved.

https://threadreaderapp.com/user/SethAbramson

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 12:05 PM

62. Voting Machines.

I do believe the voting machines were hacked and voted changed.

That said, we need to move on from the lost and focus on revenge.
We need to win in November and exact revenge that way.

If house and senate is democratic, the loss will not be so searing as Donald and his band of corrupt swamp things will be up before the endless investigations into corruption.

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 12:18 PM

64. And Comey

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Response to dajoki (Reply #64)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 01:58 PM

75. Really though, do you think he was smart enough to pour the sand out of his boots

I think he was the convenient stooge they preyed upon. Many of the things he describes are conveniently placed in front of him. He thus thinking his duties on his job is how he got where he is and he did just that. The twisted idea of publicly going on about Hilary but omitting ongoing investigations about Donald to show what was really going on his mind.

It does at the time does lends to the flavor of him being republican first with law & order coming in only second. To the idea how things should run and get done. He goes as far as to say that it is up to the American people to get him out of office by voting him out. Typical republican cop think, somehow it's us citizens job to see that the criminals and murderers are not on the street. They just go where the patrol chief sends them

An opportunist at the very least and or best

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 12:21 PM

65. 1000% correct

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 12:24 PM

66. K & R Yes, yes, yes!!!

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 12:30 PM

68. K&R! nt

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 01:29 PM

72. No FBI investigations and the Russian slander reverberates far less

Comey himself seems to believe his letter was an error and Hillary cites it as a key reason for her loss. That doesn't mean Comey acted maliciously, but the more principled the actor, the more chance something goes awry in the real complicated world.

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 01:55 PM

73. All that is true but...

 

I voted for Hillary in both the general election and even the primary when all my liberal friends voted for Bernie. I think she was a great Secretary of State and a quiet but powerful advocate for women's rights throughout the world. I still don't like her. It bugs me when she takes credit for #metoo or takes money to talk to Wall Street execs.

I don't look at Hillary and see single payer health care, or cleaning up Wall Street, or investing in a moderate middle class to stabilize unstable parts of the world, or challenging Scott Walker on labor unions, or solving the high cost of housing (my #1 issue). Even though these were all policies during her husband's administration she didn't campaign on them. Bill Clinton openly advocated higher taxes and gays in the military during his 1992 campaign. He also made an outspoken environmentalist his VP candidate. Hillary was very moderate , took few chances, and focused on negative campaigning against Trump.

I live in California and feel pretty good about most of the people I vote for. We have lots of policies I am proud to support. The truth, however, is we all feel the economy is pulling away from us. Many people throughout the country fell the same way, but here Democrats are in a position to do something about it. The average voters have political will to implement progressive policies, Democrats have all the power they need to implement such policies, all the technological, financial, and educational resources are available to facilitate better cost of living policies. Yet, the whole world sees it costs too much to live here and our leaders are not in front of this issue.

If working class Americans looked at liberal policies and saw we had a real handle on individual economic empowerment and social mobility we would win every election. Yes, there are extremists who support bad leaders like Trump. Most of the people I know personally who voted for him are average people who are looking to build a better life for themselves and their families. That's why most people voted for Trump, Putin, Brexit, and even Hitler (he won the popular vote before he made himself a dictator). We have to change our party's image on this issue and we can only do this by producing results working class Americans can connect with. Until we do, mainstream voters will continue to be vulnerable to all the dirty campaigning conservatives throw at us.

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Response to northremembers (Reply #73)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 05:27 PM

97. Good post

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Response to northremembers (Reply #73)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 09:45 PM

110. When did Hillary take credit for #metoo

And her speeches? Really? Please note where you objected to speeches that any make politician gave.

I don't look at Hillary and see single payer health care, or cleaning up Wall Street, or investing in a moderate middle class to stabilize unstable parts of the world, or challenging Scott Walker on labor unions, or solving the high cost of housing (my #1 issue). Even though these were all policies during her husband's administration she didn't campaign on them. Bill Clinton openly advocated higher taxes and gays in the military during his 1992 campaign. He also made an outspoken environmentalist his VP candidate. Hillary was very moderate , took few chances, and focused on negative campaigning against Trump.


You do realize she's not running for anything now, right? Also, did you ever happen to take a look at the Democratic party platform, or attend any of her rallies, view her campaign website or listen to any other speeches?

I believe you have been misinformed.

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 01:56 PM

74. Every time some talking head brings up HRC's loss, I discount everything they have to say unless

...they lead off with Russia, ratfckng, and GOP dirty tricks.

I'm talkin' to you, Donna Brazile.

Thanks for the list, shraby. It is short and to the point -- easy to memorize.

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 02:17 PM

80. All that, and Comey too. It's absurd to think Comey's October surprise had no effect at all

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 03:10 PM

82. All of the above plus Comey. They manipulated Comey too. They threw everything they had at Hillary C

They pulled out all of the stops to ensure Hillary would lose and Trump would win.

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 03:30 PM

83. check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, and check.

Hillary actually would have won the election had it not been (as dumpster himself said) stolen. I keep saying, she is MY president. Unfortunately, she isn't able to exercise the powers of the presidency because of the criminal enterprise that stole the WH AND CONGRESS!

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 03:31 PM

84. Thank you! That is so correct. Some are just remembering Comey. I NEVER thought Comey...

would cost her the election, even at the time...once we saw that her numbers didn't nosedive.

The night of the election, after the shocker of Spanky winning, the first thing I thought was....did RUSSIA interference have something to do with this? This makes no sense. At no time did I EVER think the Comey October surprise cost her the election. There is no evidence of that.

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 04:11 PM

88. and COMEY provided the optics and cover

which allowed for all the issues that you referenced to be swept under the rug. BTW, I've seen countless twitter posts from people who say that Comey's actions turned them away from Hillary. Not only did he drop a bombshell 11 days out, but the FBI brought it up AGAIN 2 days before election (by then, most low informed voters would have tuned out and only saw the words HILLARY FBI EMAILS).

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 04:19 PM

89. I blame it on the above, leveraged in 3 swing states, due to the vile electoral college.

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 04:47 PM

91. Yes!

And don't forget the Russian trolls working overtime to pit Hillary and Bernie supporters against each other.

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 05:05 PM

92. Thank you!

nt

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 05:12 PM

93. You left off corporate American media in its many forms,

which has a history of beaming democrats and throwing softballs to the republicans, and frankly, barely covers any issues regarding voter purges, ID requirements, etc. which is what allows them to happen with impunity nt

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 05:14 PM

94. as H said, she won all the dynamic areas

across the country, those that are growing/young/diverse, the ones that power the country, that exist ALL across the country, not just on the coasts. Anywhere there are metro areas there is huge Dem turnout and possiblity to flip the state as a result.

The problem w/America is we have a system that is designed to favor rural/empty areas over populated ones... blue votes are worth far less than red ones... the electoral college, 2 senators per state, etc..

A vote in NY or CA is worth far less than some empty red state like ND or WY... taxation without representation, yo.

Red America is a drain on blue America, simply a fact that H didn't want to come out and say directly, but clearly what is going on.

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 06:10 PM

98. Two primary factors for me...

* Trump's incessant lies and deceptions in the campaign and little or no media calling him out, and sensationalism on steroids. There was far more open fact-checking in European media than in the U.S.

* Billions of dollars of Trump support from the corporate and millionaire classes (support anyone with an "R" ) via PACs and free media coverage (MSM, Faux, Sinclair, etc.). In the U.S. money = power = the right to a louder voice.

IMO, most of the items listed in the OP had relatively minor effect compared to these. Good topic, thanks!

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 06:57 PM

99. She lost

Because eligible democrats stayed home and didn't vote...

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Response to bluecollar2 (Reply #99)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 08:20 PM

103. Yep...

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Response to progressoid (Reply #103)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 08:55 PM

106. Wonder what the charts for Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio etc look like...n/t

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 08:07 PM

100. THANK YOU. I knew summer of 2016 that between Crosscheck voter database purges and Russian

hacking, gerrymandering, etc. that the election was going to be stolen, long before Comey's announcement. . No surprise watching the red shift on election night, just like 2004. It wasn't Comey.

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 08:25 PM

104. Ari Melber had a great show tonight. He disagrees with you about Cohen.

 

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 08:28 PM

105. Sorry, I think she lost it herself...

...and I say that as someone hi knew a lot of her staff (they stayed at our house). Bottom line is that the Russian Facebook posts and the Comey letter disn’t Take any Clinto voters and make them Trump voters; all it did was reinforce what some voters already didin’t like about her. Strategically, Clinto failed to ensure early on that she HAD the Obama voters, and spent her as money telling people how bad Trump was, not talking positively about what she’d do.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #105)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 09:18 PM

109. I disagree. I think Comey's intervention altered the affect of the election.

Had it not happened I think she would have won comfortably. Had the Russians not smeared her she would have won by a sizeable margin.

People hated her as a result of the damage that Comey did to her reputation. There was never supposed to be a public investigation to begin with.

HRC was extremely popular when she was Secretary of State. Then she got swift boated. She did her best to stop it, as we saw during the Benghazi hearings.

And I think she had the right advertising strategy, given how badly she was swift boated. Voters weren't deciding based on the issues, they were deciding based on who they thought had behaved more unethically. And Comey made sure she couldn't win that fight.

Besides, she won all three debates, where the issues were thoroughly hashed out. But people weren't focused on the issues. If they were Trump would not have won big in Iowa, where his protectionist rhetoric was unpopular.

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 08:57 PM

107. The right-wing hate machine had

over 24 years to work on her.

It's hard to overcome that kind of experience.

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 09:02 PM

108. And Bernie Sanders.

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Response to Lil Missy (Reply #108)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:51 PM

112. Definitely this, and it crosses over in so many ways. Hillary

was badmouthed from every direction. That was meant to erode her numbers, which were quite solid until the assaults from every direction. Of course, we all expected it from the GOP, so Bernie......what a shame that Hillary really couldn’t attack back.

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #112)


Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 10:45 PM

111. She wasn't nearly as "flawed" a candidate

as seems to be common wisdom. She was a damn good candidate.

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Response to shraby (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:14 PM

113. Ominous indications exiting the 2014 midterms

Obama steadily turned off the white working class and Hillary was going to have to deal with it. That was always the huge obstacle entering 2016, and it's the reason I didn't plan to pay any attention to that presidential race. All the logical numbers in key demographics pointed to a narrow Hillary defeat. It was only when Republicans seemed determined to actually nominate Donald Trump did I think Hillary might have a chance.

Here is one of the articles from immediately after the 2014 midterm. There were tons of them. I'm sure Rachel Maddow was paying no attention at all. But for anyone who has Republican friends and especially among that angry white working class male group, it could not have been more glaring what to expect from that block in 2016. The 2014 midterm was merely a warmup:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/12/can-clinton-win-back-the-white-working-class/383280/

Comey definitely decided the race. Hillary had low upside and she never actually enjoyed the huge edge as indicated in the polls. Those simplistic angry males do not show up in representative proportion in pre election polling. Besides, independents wanted change and they always favored Trump. Hillary had no opportunity to win big.

But minus Comey and even with the Facebook atrocities Hillary would have squeaked out an electoral win and managed roughly 1.5 to 2 points greater margin in the popular vote.

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