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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe Second Amendment was ratified to preserve slavery
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/02/second-amendment-ratified-preserve-slavery/#.Wo-FQVn1Fvo.twitterThom Hartmann, AlterNet
22 Feb 2018 at 22:05 ET
The real reason the Second Amendment was ratified, and why it says State instead of Country (the Framers knew the difference see the 10th Amendment), was to preserve the slave patrol militias in the southern states, which was necessary to get Virginias vote. Founders Patrick Henry, George Mason, and James Madison were totally clear on that . . . and we all should be too.
In the beginning, there were the militias. In the South, they were also called the slave patrols, and they were regulated by the states.
In Georgia, for example, a generation before the American Revolution, laws were passed in 1755 and 1757 that required all plantation owners or their male white employees to be members of the Georgia Militia, and for those armed militia members to make monthly inspections of the quarters of all slaves in the state. The law defined which counties had which armed militias and even required armed militia members to keep a keen eye out for slaves who may be planning uprisings.
As Dr. Carl T. Bogus wrote for the University of California Law Review in 1998, The Georgia statutes required patrols, under the direction of commissioned militia officers, to examine every plantation each month and authorized them to search all Negro Houses for offensive Weapons and Ammunition and to apprehend and give twenty lashes to any slave found outside plantation grounds.
(snip)
By the time the Constitution was ratified, hundreds of substantial slave uprisings had occurred across the South. Blacks outnumbered whites in large areas, and the state militias were used to both prevent and to put down slave uprisings. As Dr. Bogus points out, slavery can only exist in the context of a police state, and the enforcement of that police state was the explicit job of the militias.
(end snip)
You can't know where you are going unless you know where you have been.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)of what guns are about, more whites shoot whites with guns than they shoot blacks, and same with blacks. It is the weapon of choice for killers.
Guns are a unique problem in United States with 2nd Amendment in force for 250 years. There too fricking many guns around, some estimate 400 million. A lot of those guns are in hands of law breakers, running into millions.
Therefore with great reluctance I must defend myself against a crazed gunman shooting innocent people. Because cops can't come for 10+ minutes AFTER a 911 call is made.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)They kill for different reasons than poor people living in poverty.
And, you damn sure dont need an AR15 for defense.
quartz007
(1,216 posts)defending agaist a home intruder. Can you imagine hiding a AR-15 under the pillow?
former9thward
(31,806 posts)How idiotic. The best weapon for self defense is a shotgun not a handgun. You don't have to be accurate to down your target.
quartz007
(1,216 posts)and hears some intruder in the bedroom.
Only idiots will get up and look for the shotgun in closet. My handgun is available and loaded just by reaching under the pillow in 1 second. If one is a single woman she will be defenseless without quick access to a handgun.
Response to Hoyt (Reply #6)
Post removed
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Blacks seem to have more respect for their community and society than white wingers.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Interracial killing is the exception - usually whites kill whites and AA kill AA. Unless you believe white gangs are driving into the inner cities to kill AA.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)?w=150&h=109
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)These were *before* the second amendment passed.
The present-day Pennsylvania Constitution, using language adopted in 1790, declares: "The right of the citizens to bear arms in defence of themselves and the State shall not be questioned."
Vermont: Adopted in 1777, the Vermont Constitution closely tracks the Pennsylvania Constitution. It states "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State.."
Retrotech
(38 posts)It's no coincidence that the whitest states were the thirstiest for slave labor.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Various bands of northern tribes sided with the British, during the revolution and later during the war of 1812. British Canada remained a threat
Yupster
(14,308 posts)was assumed.
Almost everyone lived on a farm. Kids learned to shoot before they were 10 and got their own gun by 12.
The idea of not allowing individual Americans from having firearms in 18th century America would have been considered lunacy.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)And if the second amendment were about individual gun ownership, or if there were any suggestion that individual gun ownership was a threatened thing, it would be drafted differently.
As you note, the idea would have been ludicrous, unlike the demonstrated and practical concerns of the other amendments.
However, individual gun ownership does not imply the right - expressed by the second amendment - to organize militias for collective security.
Yupster
(14,308 posts)where basically everyone had a gun with no regulations and for most of the time not even any age limit, so why in the last 20 years are people going to schools and shooting random people. What's changed from the last 200 years?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Last edited Fri Feb 23, 2018, 10:07 AM - Edit history (1)
The cartoon version of US history is different from the real one.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1919_United_States_anarchist_bombings
appalachiablue
(41,056 posts)possessing a gun especially for hunting was common. In contrast, in England at the time only wealthier land owners, not all that many people could afford or own a gun, so I've read.
Mariana
(14,849 posts)X_Digger
(18,585 posts)I know, you have to be internally consistent to agree with the OP, but to assume that Pennsylvania wanted slaves, or that Vermont didn't at the same time outlaw slavery- is downright silly.
appalachiablue
(41,056 posts)in NY state until she escaped in the 1820s. Truth went on to support abolition, recruited for the North during the Civil War, assisted the post-war Freedman's Village and hospital for former slaves in Arl., Va., and fought for equal and women's rights. Her grandson James Caldwell enlisted in the famous 54th Mass. Regiment that fought in S.C. at the Battle of Fort Wagner, 1863 portrayed in the movie "Glory."
Truth grew up as a child speaking Dutch as a first language due to the families she worked for in that area of NY state.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sojourner_Truth
hack89
(39,171 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)intimidate, and spread racism and hatred.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Nice try though. You must be loving this.
moriah
(8,311 posts)Yes, I am loving the fact the friends of the victims and other traumatized students in this instance are fed up with the bullshit "This isn't the time to politicize a tragedy" line they've heard their entire fucking lives and are demanding that we do something.
It's harder for elementary students to do that, and we should have done something BEFORE this for them.
But no, no one is loving that anybody got shot, and if that's what you're implying -- and I admit "this" is a pronoun that might have been ill-defined on your part -- that is 99 shades of fucked up.
People are passionate but I certainly pray to the FSM that no one on DU would ever say or imply that other DUers here are loving tragedies occurring intentionally.
appalachiablue
(41,056 posts)in 1981 in DC it took 13 years of advocating to pass stricter gun laws, namely background checks, as part of the 1994 Brady Bill. The NRA opposed background checks and soon began working on the state level to roll back regulations. So it goes, but hopefully new momentum now will force serious changes for the better.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brady_Handgun_Violence_Prevention_Act
ThoughtCriminal
(14,011 posts)appalachiablue
(41,056 posts)Response to hack89 (Reply #5)
TryingNot2Freak This message was self-deleted by its author.
Old Enough 2
(88 posts)Schools in 21st century America continue to be enslaved by fear brought about by "NRA # Murder Inc". The Second Amendment has been bastardized far beyond its original intent.
I've heard an old Italian saying; "a fish rots from its head to its tail". The NRA (head) is rotten, the rest of the rot through its tail is the GOP and its allies, Fox and right wing hate radio.
To eliminate this deplorable murderous cancer on American safety, the head (NRA) should be attacked, vilified, shamed and removed from the body politics at an unrelenting rate.
Hestia
(3,818 posts)land, even if they were starving to death. It was a punishable offense, up to and including death.
Tales of Robin Hood, anyone?
LexVegas
(6,005 posts)ellie
(6,928 posts)Every single problem can be traced back to the ridiculous assertion that white people are better than black people, Native Americans, Latinos, Asians, etc. How long can these toxic "white" (there is no thing as white) people peddle their bullshit? I am 53 and I want this shit to end in my lifetime.
quartz007
(1,216 posts)because 90% of people who are selected winners are white. I think they should select from all races in equal proportions.
ellie
(6,928 posts)Initech
(99,915 posts)I mean come on, the evil democrats are involved in a conspiracy to take all our guns away! That crazy guy on the internet said so!
pnwmom
(108,925 posts)(The Root) Recently Thom Hartmann published an essay on Truthout titled "The Second Amendment Was Ratified to Preserve Slavery." Hartmann, who is described on the Internet as a radio host, author, former psychotherapist and entrepreneur and a progressive political commentator, said the amendment to the U.S. Constitution was intended, in part, to protect slave-patrol militias.
If Hartmann's political goal is to argue for reasonable firearms regulations, then he and I are in the same camp. I have long argued that the Second Amendment does not protect an individual's right to own firearms, and that the purpose of the amendment was purely to guarantee that the states could maintain their own militias. I have also written a great deal on how the Constitution protected slavery (see my book Slavery and the Founders: Race and Liberty in the Age of Jefferson), and I am not shy about pointing out how the founders protected slavery. Indeed, my most recent public comment on slavery and the founding was an op-ed in the New York Times on Jefferson and slavery titled "The Monster of Monticello."
Still, however committed one may be to a political outcome, it serves no purpose to make historical arguments that are demonstrably wrong, misleading and inconsistent with what happened. Hartmann does not serve his cause well by purporting to write history when his version of history is mostly wrong, and very misleading.
SNIP
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)But states that had no slaves and led the abolition movement valued the right to own a gun.
And a majority of the members of the Democratic Party support the right to own firearms as it is in our last party platform. And will be in the next.
With possible strong restrictions, of course.
Sailor65x1
(554 posts)seriously.
Docreed2003
(16,818 posts)That everyone would check out this thread and the great article from WP explaining some of the reasoning behind the 2nd Amendment
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1016202007
JI7
(89,184 posts)moondust
(19,917 posts)Along with the need for a national/state/local defense without a standing army, plus the need for protection out on the expanding frontier without much, if any, law enforcement available.
It's possible that slave owners demanded it as part of a deal of some kind, like staying in the Union or something. If you think about it, what would happen to the slave economy without the slaves? Could a patrol on horseback brandishing only whips/swords/spears prevent thousands of slaves from escaping under the cover of darkness or even in broad daylight? Protecting the slave economy may have been so important to somebody that they put it in the Constitution so as to make it nearly impossible for urban "libruls" to repeal it.
lapucelle
(18,043 posts)which is on PropOrNot's list of websites compromised by Russian propagandists.
http://www.propornot.com/p/the-list.html
For what it's worth, here's a rebuttal published on The Root to Hartmann's piece .
https://www.theroot.com/2nd-amendment-passed-to-protect-slavery-no-1790894965
SomethingNew
(279 posts)Total nonsense story written by someone with, apparently, no understanding of or connection to history. Militia, unfortunately, was not limited to a national guard of sorts and it certainly was not limited to racist "slave patrols." Don't believe me? Refer to Sandy Levinson, a dyed in the wool Liberal Lion who has been advocating for a constitutional amendment to remove "The Embarrassing Second Amendment" for decades. Sanford Levinson, The Embarrassing Second Amendment, 99 Yale L.J. 637, 646-47 (1989). For those keeping track, this was from an unimpeachable liberal a full two decades before Heller.
aikoaiko
(34,127 posts)But northern and abolitionist states had state level RKBA protections and supported the 2nd in the Bill of Rights.
Pennsylvania is the best example.
Thom is being a bit selective in his reading.