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deminks

(11,006 posts)
Thu Feb 22, 2018, 11:23 PM Feb 2018

The Second Amendment was ratified to preserve slavery

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/02/second-amendment-ratified-preserve-slavery/#.Wo-FQVn1Fvo.twitter

Thom Hartmann, AlterNet
22 Feb 2018 at 22:05 ET

The real reason the Second Amendment was ratified, and why it says “State” instead of “Country” (the Framers knew the difference – see the 10th Amendment), was to preserve the slave patrol militias in the southern states, which was necessary to get Virginia’s vote. Founders Patrick Henry, George Mason, and James Madison were totally clear on that . . . and we all should be too.

In the beginning, there were the militias. In the South, they were also called the “slave patrols,” and they were regulated by the states.

In Georgia, for example, a generation before the American Revolution, laws were passed in 1755 and 1757 that required all plantation owners or their male white employees to be members of the Georgia Militia, and for those armed militia members to make monthly inspections of the quarters of all slaves in the state. The law defined which counties had which armed militias and even required armed militia members to keep a keen eye out for slaves who may be planning uprisings.

As Dr. Carl T. Bogus wrote for the University of California Law Review in 1998, “The Georgia statutes required patrols, under the direction of commissioned militia officers, to examine every plantation each month and authorized them to search ‘all Negro Houses for offensive Weapons and Ammunition’ and to apprehend and give twenty lashes to any slave found outside plantation grounds.”

(snip)

By the time the Constitution was ratified, hundreds of substantial slave uprisings had occurred across the South. Blacks outnumbered whites in large areas, and the state militias were used to both prevent and to put down slave uprisings. As Dr. Bogus points out, slavery can only exist in the context of a police state, and the enforcement of that police state was the explicit job of the militias.

(end snip)

You can't know where you are going unless you know where you have been.
48 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The Second Amendment was ratified to preserve slavery (Original Post) deminks Feb 2018 OP
Guns in America are still about hatred and racism. Hoyt Feb 2018 #1
Regardless quartz007 Feb 2018 #4
Most gun owners, particularly fanatics, are white wing racists. Hoyt Feb 2018 #6
Right, a handgun is better at quartz007 Feb 2018 #11
Why would anybody hide a weapon under a pillow? former9thward Feb 2018 #20
Not if one is sleeping quartz007 Feb 2018 #47
Post removed Post removed Feb 2018 #13
Defending themselves against white wing racist gun-humpers. Hoyt Feb 2018 #15
You know that is not true - you have seen the FBI stats hack89 Feb 2018 #16
I know this is representative of more gunners than you care to admit. Hoyt Feb 2018 #42
+6000000 7wo7rees Feb 2018 #48
K&R brush Feb 2018 #2
So why did states like Vermont and Pennsylvania pass their own version of the same? X_Digger Feb 2018 #3
They wanted slaves. Retrotech Feb 2018 #24
In New England, it had much more to do with Native Americans jberryhill Feb 2018 #28
Individuals owning guns in 18th century America Yupster Feb 2018 #34
That is correct jberryhill Feb 2018 #35
So if America has always been a land Yupster Feb 2018 #39
Not much - bombings used to be more common jberryhill Feb 2018 #46
True, much of the land was still 'frontier' to European settlers and appalachiablue Feb 2018 #37
The very same Vermont Constitution outlawed slavery. nt. Mariana Feb 2018 #32
Vermont?!? PA?!? Go back to history class, you must've slept through it. X_Digger Feb 2018 #44
For just one, Sojourner Truth (1797-1883) was born and held in slavery appalachiablue Feb 2018 #36
So why did the non-slave states have militias? Nt hack89 Feb 2018 #5
I can tell you why they have them now, they are white wing organizations that use guns to Hoyt Feb 2018 #9
Which is why most gun owners shun them. hack89 Feb 2018 #10
If you think any sane person loves a mass shooting... moriah Feb 2018 #25
It's an awful history for sure. When Reagan and James Brady were shot appalachiablue Feb 2018 #38
Maybe there were still some native Americans that had not been murdered ThoughtCriminal Feb 2018 #22
Check, or lawless 'troublemakers' of any background, whatever. appalachiablue Feb 2018 #31
This message was self-deleted by its author TryingNot2Freak Feb 2018 #41
NRA Plus AR-15's Continue to Enslave America Old Enough 2 Feb 2018 #7
Nonsense. Over in the old country, people were not allowed to hunt for food on the lord's (king's) Hestia Feb 2018 #8
Thats a new one. LexVegas Feb 2018 #14
This fucking country ellie Feb 2018 #12
That Nobel prize has got to be racist as well quartz007 Feb 2018 #17
Sounds great! ellie Feb 2018 #18
Ah who cares? This is 2018! Facts don't matter! Initech Feb 2018 #19
This writer at The Root disagrees. pnwmom Feb 2018 #21
Believe whatever makes you feel good. GulfCoast66 Feb 2018 #23
I can't believe anyone still takes Hartmann Sailor65x1 Feb 2018 #26
I would strongly recommend Docreed2003 Feb 2018 #27
NRA showed what they are about with their Silence on Philando Castile JI7 Feb 2018 #29
I've suspected that was part of it. moondust Feb 2018 #30
The original story by Hartmann was published on Truthout lapucelle Feb 2018 #33
Fantasy doesn't help effect real change. SomethingNew Feb 2018 #40
Sure from Southerners point of view. aikoaiko Feb 2018 #43
Gunhumpers hate this. nt LexVegas Feb 2018 #45
 

quartz007

(1,216 posts)
4. Regardless
Thu Feb 22, 2018, 11:34 PM
Feb 2018

of what guns are about, more whites shoot whites with guns than they shoot blacks, and same with blacks. It is the weapon of choice for killers.

Guns are a unique problem in United States with 2nd Amendment in force for 250 years. There too fricking many guns around, some estimate 400 million. A lot of those guns are in hands of law breakers, running into millions.

Therefore with great reluctance I must defend myself against a crazed gunman shooting innocent people. Because cops can't come for 10+ minutes AFTER a 911 call is made.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
6. Most gun owners, particularly fanatics, are white wing racists.
Thu Feb 22, 2018, 11:45 PM
Feb 2018

They kill for different reasons than poor people living in poverty.

And, you damn sure don’t need an AR15 for defense.

 

quartz007

(1,216 posts)
11. Right, a handgun is better at
Thu Feb 22, 2018, 11:51 PM
Feb 2018

defending agaist a home intruder. Can you imagine hiding a AR-15 under the pillow?

former9thward

(31,806 posts)
20. Why would anybody hide a weapon under a pillow?
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 12:21 AM
Feb 2018

How idiotic. The best weapon for self defense is a shotgun not a handgun. You don't have to be accurate to down your target.

 

quartz007

(1,216 posts)
47. Not if one is sleeping
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 10:54 AM
Feb 2018

and hears some intruder in the bedroom.

Only idiots will get up and look for the shotgun in closet. My handgun is available and loaded just by reaching under the pillow in 1 second. If one is a single woman she will be defenseless without quick access to a handgun.

Response to Hoyt (Reply #6)

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
15. Defending themselves against white wing racist gun-humpers.
Thu Feb 22, 2018, 11:55 PM
Feb 2018

Blacks seem to have more respect for their community and society than white wingers.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
16. You know that is not true - you have seen the FBI stats
Thu Feb 22, 2018, 11:59 PM
Feb 2018

Interracial killing is the exception - usually whites kill whites and AA kill AA. Unless you believe white gangs are driving into the inner cities to kill AA.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
3. So why did states like Vermont and Pennsylvania pass their own version of the same?
Thu Feb 22, 2018, 11:31 PM
Feb 2018

These were *before* the second amendment passed.

The present-day Pennsylvania Constitution, using language adopted in 1790, declares: "The right of the citizens to bear arms in defence of themselves and the State shall not be questioned."

Vermont: Adopted in 1777, the Vermont Constitution closely tracks the Pennsylvania Constitution. It states "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State.."

 

Retrotech

(38 posts)
24. They wanted slaves.
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 01:00 AM
Feb 2018

It's no coincidence that the whitest states were the thirstiest for slave labor.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
28. In New England, it had much more to do with Native Americans
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 01:48 AM
Feb 2018

Various bands of northern tribes sided with the British, during the revolution and later during the war of 1812. British Canada remained a threat

Yupster

(14,308 posts)
34. Individuals owning guns in 18th century America
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 02:11 AM
Feb 2018

was assumed.

Almost everyone lived on a farm. Kids learned to shoot before they were 10 and got their own gun by 12.

The idea of not allowing individual Americans from having firearms in 18th century America would have been considered lunacy.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
35. That is correct
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 02:16 AM
Feb 2018

And if the second amendment were about individual gun ownership, or if there were any suggestion that individual gun ownership was a threatened thing, it would be drafted differently.

As you note, the idea would have been ludicrous, unlike the demonstrated and practical concerns of the other amendments.

However, individual gun ownership does not imply the right - expressed by the second amendment - to organize militias for collective security.

Yupster

(14,308 posts)
39. So if America has always been a land
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 03:06 AM
Feb 2018

where basically everyone had a gun with no regulations and for most of the time not even any age limit, so why in the last 20 years are people going to schools and shooting random people. What's changed from the last 200 years?

appalachiablue

(41,056 posts)
37. True, much of the land was still 'frontier' to European settlers and
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 02:27 AM
Feb 2018

possessing a gun especially for hunting was common. In contrast, in England at the time only wealthier land owners, not all that many people could afford or own a gun, so I've read.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
44. Vermont?!? PA?!? Go back to history class, you must've slept through it.
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 08:54 AM
Feb 2018

I know, you have to be internally consistent to agree with the OP, but to assume that Pennsylvania wanted slaves, or that Vermont didn't at the same time outlaw slavery- is downright silly.

appalachiablue

(41,056 posts)
36. For just one, Sojourner Truth (1797-1883) was born and held in slavery
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 02:22 AM
Feb 2018

in NY state until she escaped in the 1820s. Truth went on to support abolition, recruited for the North during the Civil War, assisted the post-war Freedman's Village and hospital for former slaves in Arl., Va., and fought for equal and women's rights. Her grandson James Caldwell enlisted in the famous 54th Mass. Regiment that fought in S.C. at the Battle of Fort Wagner, 1863 portrayed in the movie "Glory."
Truth grew up as a child speaking Dutch as a first language due to the families she worked for in that area of NY state.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sojourner_Truth

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
9. I can tell you why they have them now, they are white wing organizations that use guns to
Thu Feb 22, 2018, 11:48 PM
Feb 2018

intimidate, and spread racism and hatred.

moriah

(8,311 posts)
25. If you think any sane person loves a mass shooting...
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 01:11 AM
Feb 2018

Yes, I am loving the fact the friends of the victims and other traumatized students in this instance are fed up with the bullshit "This isn't the time to politicize a tragedy" line they've heard their entire fucking lives and are demanding that we do something.

It's harder for elementary students to do that, and we should have done something BEFORE this for them.

But no, no one is loving that anybody got shot, and if that's what you're implying -- and I admit "this" is a pronoun that might have been ill-defined on your part -- that is 99 shades of fucked up.

People are passionate but I certainly pray to the FSM that no one on DU would ever say or imply that other DUers here are loving tragedies occurring intentionally.

appalachiablue

(41,056 posts)
38. It's an awful history for sure. When Reagan and James Brady were shot
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 02:31 AM
Feb 2018

in 1981 in DC it took 13 years of advocating to pass stricter gun laws, namely background checks, as part of the 1994 Brady Bill. The NRA opposed background checks and soon began working on the state level to roll back regulations. So it goes, but hopefully new momentum now will force serious changes for the better.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brady_Handgun_Violence_Prevention_Act

Response to hack89 (Reply #5)

Old Enough 2

(88 posts)
7. NRA Plus AR-15's Continue to Enslave America
Thu Feb 22, 2018, 11:46 PM
Feb 2018

Schools in 21st century America continue to be enslaved by fear brought about by "NRA # Murder Inc". The Second Amendment has been bastardized far beyond its original intent.

I've heard an old Italian saying; "a fish rots from its head to its tail". The NRA (head) is rotten, the rest of the rot through its tail is the GOP and its allies, Fox and right wing hate radio.

To eliminate this deplorable murderous cancer on American safety, the head (NRA) should be attacked, vilified, shamed and removed from the body politics at an unrelenting rate.

 

Hestia

(3,818 posts)
8. Nonsense. Over in the old country, people were not allowed to hunt for food on the lord's (king's)
Thu Feb 22, 2018, 11:48 PM
Feb 2018

land, even if they were starving to death. It was a punishable offense, up to and including death.

Tales of Robin Hood, anyone?

ellie

(6,928 posts)
12. This fucking country
Thu Feb 22, 2018, 11:51 PM
Feb 2018

Every single problem can be traced back to the ridiculous assertion that white people are better than black people, Native Americans, Latinos, Asians, etc. How long can these toxic "white" (there is no thing as white) people peddle their bullshit? I am 53 and I want this shit to end in my lifetime.

 

quartz007

(1,216 posts)
17. That Nobel prize has got to be racist as well
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 12:04 AM
Feb 2018

because 90% of people who are selected winners are white. I think they should select from all races in equal proportions.

Initech

(99,915 posts)
19. Ah who cares? This is 2018! Facts don't matter!
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 12:11 AM
Feb 2018

I mean come on, the evil democrats are involved in a conspiracy to take all our guns away! That crazy guy on the internet said so!

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
21. This writer at The Root disagrees.
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 12:23 AM
Feb 2018
https://www.theroot.com/2nd-amendment-passed-to-protect-slavery-no-1790894965

(The Root) — Recently Thom Hartmann published an essay on Truthout titled "The Second Amendment Was Ratified to Preserve Slavery." Hartmann, who is described on the Internet as a radio host, author, former psychotherapist and entrepreneur and a progressive political commentator, said the amendment to the U.S. Constitution was intended, in part, to protect slave-patrol militias.

If Hartmann's political goal is to argue for reasonable firearms regulations, then he and I are in the same camp. I have long argued that the Second Amendment does not protect an individual's right to own firearms, and that the purpose of the amendment was purely to guarantee that the states could maintain their own militias. I have also written a great deal on how the Constitution protected slavery (see my book Slavery and the Founders: Race and Liberty in the Age of Jefferson), and I am not shy about pointing out how the founders protected slavery. Indeed, my most recent public comment on slavery and the founding was an op-ed in the New York Times on Jefferson and slavery titled "The Monster of Monticello."

Still, however committed one may be to a political outcome, it serves no purpose to make historical arguments that are demonstrably wrong, misleading and inconsistent with what happened. Hartmann does not serve his cause well by purporting to write history when his version of history is mostly wrong, and very misleading.

SNIP

GulfCoast66

(11,949 posts)
23. Believe whatever makes you feel good.
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 12:59 AM
Feb 2018

But states that had no slaves and led the abolition movement valued the right to own a gun.

And a majority of the members of the Democratic Party support the right to own firearms as it is in our last party platform. And will be in the next.

With possible strong restrictions, of course.

Docreed2003

(16,818 posts)
27. I would strongly recommend
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 01:43 AM
Feb 2018

That everyone would check out this thread and the great article from WP explaining some of the reasoning behind the 2nd Amendment

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1016202007

moondust

(19,917 posts)
30. I've suspected that was part of it.
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 01:53 AM
Feb 2018

Along with the need for a national/state/local defense without a standing army, plus the need for protection out on the expanding frontier without much, if any, law enforcement available.

It's possible that slave owners demanded it as part of a deal of some kind, like staying in the Union or something. If you think about it, what would happen to the slave economy without the slaves? Could a patrol on horseback brandishing only whips/swords/spears prevent thousands of slaves from escaping under the cover of darkness or even in broad daylight? Protecting the slave economy may have been so important to somebody that they put it in the Constitution so as to make it nearly impossible for urban "libruls" to repeal it.

lapucelle

(18,043 posts)
33. The original story by Hartmann was published on Truthout
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 02:08 AM
Feb 2018

which is on PropOrNot's list of websites compromised by Russian propagandists.

http://www.propornot.com/p/the-list.html

For what it's worth, here's a rebuttal published on The Root to Hartmann's piece .

https://www.theroot.com/2nd-amendment-passed-to-protect-slavery-no-1790894965

SomethingNew

(279 posts)
40. Fantasy doesn't help effect real change.
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 04:24 AM
Feb 2018

Total nonsense story written by someone with, apparently, no understanding of or connection to history. Militia, unfortunately, was not limited to a national guard of sorts and it certainly was not limited to racist "slave patrols." Don't believe me? Refer to Sandy Levinson, a dyed in the wool Liberal Lion who has been advocating for a constitutional amendment to remove "The Embarrassing Second Amendment" for decades. Sanford Levinson, The Embarrassing Second Amendment, 99 Yale L.J. 637, 646-47 (1989). For those keeping track, this was from an unimpeachable liberal a full two decades before Heller.

aikoaiko

(34,127 posts)
43. Sure from Southerners point of view.
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 08:44 AM
Feb 2018


But northern and abolitionist states had state level RKBA protections and supported the 2nd in the Bill of Rights.

Pennsylvania is the best example.

Thom is being a bit selective in his reading.
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