One pedestrian death caused by a bicyclist's negligence and DU explodes with anti bicycle venom..

[Fumesucker]

Calls for registering and insuring bicycles and licensing riders, calls for mandatory bicycle helmets for adult bicyclists.. Because ZOMG! SIX HUNDRED PEOPLE A YEAR DIE ON BICYCLES!!!!

Some of the most outrageous venom I've ever heard spouted against bicyclists I've read right here on DU.

And yet the gun owners have a huge cow if someone gets upset when we have our regularly scheduled deliberate gun massacre with a dozen dead and more dozens in the hospital.

[DiverDave]

1. Um, maybe a link?

or it's just your word.

If you are going to have a side in this mess, you gotta cover the bases.
Just sayin

[Fumesucker]

4. I guess if you didn't see it it didn't happen..

One thread among many..

http://election.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2376315

[DiverDave]

7. Now, see, using that sort of reply would

start something. But I wont take the bait.
But maybe you want that,huh?
And NO I didnt see it.
Thank you for the link.

[Fumesucker]

8. I'm just ticked off in general this morning, nothing personal at all..

I got run off the road onto a rough shoulder by a car once again on my morning ride to the store and came back with a bit of an attitude.. (I go to the store early, it's too damn hot to ride here in the summer after about nine am or so)

Luckily that particular patch of road actually had a shoulder, that's by no means the case on every road I have to ride..

Then I come back and find gun owners whining still because people said hurtful things about their beloved toys and it reminded me of the unbelievable amount of bullshit on DU about one bicyclist who killed a pedestrian in a negligent accident.

[alphafemale]

83. I had a crazy woman do a California stop and pull out right in front of me awhile back.

Luckily I was not going that fast and was able to swerve behind her.

But then she rolled down her window and screamed at me, "You're supposed to ride AGAINST traffic!" sheesh

[Gormy Cuss]

85. I'd laugh, but that's one dangerously stupid driver.

I've never had a driver yell that but I have heard "Stay on the sidewalk!" and "Get out of the lane."

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. That was 9 months ago

I agree about the guns though. Getting tired of it.

[Fumesucker]

13. It was 9 months ago because it's a rare event..

Not so with mass gun slaughter..

That's the difference, the other day in response to a question on DU I only had to go back two months to find a gun expert who killed a group of people in cold blood..

[frylock]

54. had to ell ohh ell at the critical masshole who stated "we obey traffic laws"

what chapter of critical mass is this person riding with?! obey traffic laws?! that is fucking rich! and the guy sitting on his fat ass in his air conditioned car admonishing people for not wanting to lose momentum. fuck that shit. yes, there are some asshole cyclists, but i've never had a cyclist throw something at my head for no good reason like i've had drivers do while i'm out for a pedal.

[Skidmore]

2. This is the first time I'm seeing a thread on bicycles.

Explodes? Really?

[justanidea]

3. Wait

Wait a second...600 people die every year on bicycles??

Thats nearly double the amount killed in 2010 by ALL types of rifles (358 in 2010 according to the FBI)

You just proved bicycles are more deadly than "assault weapons" (or any other long gun).

[Fumesucker]

6. Actually it's cars that are doing the killing of bicyclists for the most part..

When a human body on a thirty pound machine is struck by a three thousand pound machine traveling at high speed that's the generally expected outcome..

The Maryland Green Party candidate for the Senate was killed by a car while on her bicycle, the woman who struck her found her bicycle jammed under her Escalade when she got home..

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/09/21/maryland-green-party-senate-candidate-killed-party-weighs-replacement/

WASHINGTON -- It will be at least the weekend before the Maryland Green Party decides whether it will field a replacement candidate for U.S. Senate hopeful Natasha Pettigrew, who died Monday after being hit by an SUV as she rode her bicycle.

Maryland State Police were called shortly after 5:30 a.m. Sunday by someone who had seen the injured Pettigrew along Route 202 in Largo, according to State Police spokesman Greg Shipley.

Within the hour, Christy R. Littleford, 41, called Prince George's County Police to report that after hitting what she thought was an animal, she got home to discover a bicycle jammed beneath the Cadillac Escalade she was driving.

[nobodyspecial]

93. Bicycles aren't killing people

careless drivers are

[Starboard Tack]

158. Are you serious? You think bicyclists are killing 600 others?

It's they who are being killed by vehicles. And don't forget the 10,000 handgun homicides a year.

[2on2u]

5. Everything I know about bicycles I learnt on evening television, ya know, the

television approved for all ages.

[hlthe2b]

9. I'm both a cyclist and an avid walker. In both, drivers of cars are incredibly unaware, distracted,

and frequently aggressively dangerous.

That said, I missed being hit (while on foot) by a cyclist illegally riding a sidewalk at high speed-- by mere inches. It did scare me into losing balance and falling off the sidewalk. Had I been an elderly person who could not quickly react, I could imagine having been seriously injured. And because cyclists are not insured, who the hell would pay my medical bills? That IS an issue, even if I'm not advocating requiring licensing and insurance at this point.

I'm a big fan of cycling, hiking, and walking. But, like those driving--both groups need to be responsible.

[Fumesucker]

12. Evidently you've had many close calls with cars and drivers..

I know I certainly have..

And you've had one close call with a bicyclist who was probably on the sidewalk in the first place thanks to the horrible drivers..

What triggered my little rant this morning was being run off the road yet again by a driver, I always watch my mirror when there are cars coming up behind and this sucker wasn't moving over an inch. When he was about two seconds behind I bailed and he whizzed by, probably would have missed me but it would have been close..

You are of course correct, people do need to be responsible but let's face it, the potential for death and injury with a vehicle that weighs four thousand pounds and has three hundred horsepower is just a bit more than the potential for such with a vehicle that weighs thirty pounds and has about one quarter horsepower..

[ileus]

11. Bicycles kill people.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

70. I have seen bicyclists cause the death of a motorcyclist and a pedestrian

Different incidents a long time ago. I still walk, ride motorcycles, and used to ride bicycles (when I could get somewhere on them).

[MineralMan]

14. Given the penchant of American drivers to

use cell phones, etc. while driving, I'm afraid that I'd not be much interested in bicycling these days. Truly. It's not an excuse for the drivers, but it's damned dangerous out there for bicyclists. I won't comment on unsafe riding practices used by many bicyclists, but riding in an extremely defensive way seems appropriate.

[Fumesucker]

19. I believe you just had an incident where transportation was critical to you..

Not everyone has the wherewithal to buy a used car, let alone a new one..

Automobile ownership is becoming more and more unaffordable for many people, purchase, insurance, tags, tires, gas, parking, the list of costs both direct and indirect is substantial and those costs increase regularly.

The quality of public transportation in the US would have to improve considerably to get all the way to pathetic.

I'm seeing more and more people on bicycles as actual transportation even out here in deep south exurbia, close to the last place you would expect to see that.

[MineralMan]

25. I have no brief against bicycles or bicyclists.

They're important to transportation. Sadly, it can be dangerous to ride. That it can be dangerous does not mean that I oppose the use of bicycles in any way. I do not. I own two of them myself, and ride for exercise and recreation. Due to the inattention of motorists, I ride them on designated bicycle trails, rather than on the street.

People who are driving other vehicles should be always watchful to see bicyclists. The fact is, however, that they are often not watchful. Bicyclists who use streets and roads also traveled on by motor vehicles need to ride in the most defensive way possible. That is the fact, unfortunate as it may be. I observe bicyclists who do not ride that way, and I think most observant drivers have also observed that.

[Fumesucker]

34. I have flashing lights on my bike that would do an ambulance proud..

White on the front and red on the rear, I can see them reflecting off street signs that are blocks away in both directions and people still either don't see or deliberately aim to scare. Not that many and not that often but it was an incident with a car this morning that prompted my post, I was still pretty ticked when I posted..

[GoneOffShore]

63. You might want to get rid of the flashing lights.

They draw the eye to them in a way that steady lights do not, sometimes causing people to steer towards them.

[Fumesucker]

65. Too much light pollution, a steady light is ignored/disappears amongst all the other visual noise..

There really is no ideal solution, I have my lights set to a smooth pulsing mode rather than a rapid flicker and blink that it will also do..

For every person that steers toward your flickering light there's probably fifty that see you before they would otherwise and react appropriately.

A lot more work could be done on the psychology and physiology of warning devices, particularly lights..

[MineralMan]

64. Those are very good safety measures.

Sadly, so many drivers are inattentive or distracted that defensive riding is always necessary. When I started riding a motorcycle in my late teens, my father told me, "You should always ride with the expectation that drivers of other vehicles are trying to kill you." That advice kept me out of trouble and saved me from numerous situations where I wasn't seen by drivers. It probably saved my life more than once.

We can only control what we do when we're on the road. Everyone else is always out of our control. Drive and ride defensively at all times and you'll live to drive or ride again.

[Fumesucker]

66. There's an old saying about flying..

There are old pilots and there are bold pilots but damn few old bold pilots.

[snooper2]

87. Ever hear of a scooter?

[Fumesucker]

92. Yeah, and if they're the cheap Chinese ones I can buy dozens of broken ones for a song..

On Craigslist..

On the other hand a good quality Euro or Japanese scooter that's going to run more than a few hundred miles without breaking or something falling off costs about as much as a lower end used car..

[unapatriciated]

157. I live in a 'deep south exurbia'

Used to be I seldom saw a bicyclist on my drive to work. Now there are three regulars on my route to work. I always slow down and wait for a safe place to pass, it adds all of five minuets to commute. Because of those that bicycle I breathe a littler easier, so thank you.

Sorry about the jerk who ran you off the road.

[slackmaster]

15. I own bicycles and guns

Deal with it.

[Fumesucker]

16. I'm just commenting on the similarity of the reactions.

And the vast difference in the crime..

Bicyclist negligently kills one person, calls for mandating licensing and insurance on bicycles..

Gun owner goes into theater and deliberately kills as many people as he can, sorry we can't possibly do anything about it, useless to even try..

[obamanut2012]

20. Many posters on DU seem to really resent cyclists for no good reason

I have seen some over the top stuff posted about cyclists, including people who ride bikes should grow up and get a car, they shouldn't be allowed on the road with cars, etc. etc. etc. Ridiculous over-the-top anti-bike propaganda and hate by people who don't see the need to commute on a bike, or who don't live where people commute on bikes so don't understand why people do. It is very odd and strange to me.

I think we should have dedicated bike lanes and bike boxes, and believe helmets should be mandatory for adults not on their own property.

[Fumesucker]

22. DU is pretty mild in that regard..

Get out in the general population IRL and there are people who will deliberately cause harm to bicyclists..

Mandatory helmet use will stop bike commuting dead in it's tracks, look at Holland, half the damn population is on bikes and helmet use is close to nil.

[Chan790]

86. I'm not sure about the helmets...

I live in DC which AFAIK has a mandatory helmet law and we have one the highest rates of bike commutership in the country according to the local cycling association.

It's not really surprising...DC public transit has been going downhill for decades, is terribly overpriced and it's not a city where one can rely on public transit anyways. It's also probably slightly more bike-commute friendly than car friendly in terms of paths, roads and layout. One can also take a bike on the bus (there's a rack on the front of the bus) or Metro. I guess my point is that the key to greater bike utilization is to work on making the city bike-friendly rather than fighting things like helmet laws and registration. I don't agree with licensing though...and while I wouldn't support mandatory insurance, I'd support the wider availability of such insurance: loss/theft/collision/calamity...I'd probably pay up to $1000 for such a policy.

[Fumesucker]

95. People wear helmets when they do things that are considered hazardous..

Mandatory helmet wearing automatically brands bike riding as "dangerous", that alone will keep a lot of people off them

Did you happen to see my OP a couple of weeks ago about mandatory helmets in cars to save lives? I got thoroughly flamed on that, practically everyone thought it was a profoundly stupid idea despite the fact it would probably save a lot more lives than mandatory bike helmets..

People love the idea of mandatory helmets for thee and hate the idea of mandatory helmets for me..

[Chan790]

117. I'd support car helmet.

I don't drive because I can't drive safely...and I refuse to ride in the front seat because the rear passenger side is the safest seat so that's where I sit. Car-helmet? I might do it. I considered buying and installing 6-point racing restraints and seats for a car once before I figured out that I'm just too unsafe to be driving in the first place.

[Irishonly]

82. I find myself agreeing with you

I watch out for cyclists and I really hate them on the sidewalk. I walk my two GSDs. One of them has a permanent limp because an ass ran over her front paw and thought it funny. The big one HATES cyclists and they are too damn dumb not to ride inches from them. I can keep them under control but I often wish they would get tickets. There is an ordinance against bicycles on the sidewalk.

[slackmaster]

26. A lone nut, criminal, or careless person does something bad, and some react by calling for...

...restrictions on the people who DIDN'T do it.

[Fumesucker]

37. On the one hand we have a quite uncommon negligent accident..

On the other hand we have a murderous deliberate act that is becoming increasingly more common.

I was just struck by the similarities and differences in the reactions, the real anger that some felt against people who use a machine that makes the user more vulnerable was a bit surprising to behold.

And then some wonder why others get incensed about people using a machine specifically designed to make one less vulnerable, a machine that is often used to commit horrifically murderous acts.

[slackmaster]

40. The FBI disagrees

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2012/june/crimes_061112/crimes_061112

Murder rates have been dropping since about 1994. Here are the FBI's preliminary figures for the last four:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/preliminary-annual-ucr-jan-dec-2011/data-tables/table-3

Beware of "misleading vividness" in media coverage of crime stories.

[Fumesucker]

44. Mass murders are become less common rather than more?

I'm aware the overall murder rate is dropping but mass murder like Aurora is become quite the rage so to speak.

[slackmaster]

47. Sorry, it wasn't clear to me that you were referring to mass murders

Somehow the one- and two-digit mass murders that have happened since 9/11/2001, or the OKC bombing in 1995, don't seem all that impressive.

[obamanut2012]

17. Me too

[lunatica]

18. I saw mostly the same half dozen gun lovers on all the threads

doing their utmost to ridicule, belittle and bully everyone. They're on a mission, including here. DU isn't that divided. It's just that a handful of people know how to highjack threads very well. And they had help from brand new posters who signed up on the day after the shootings who were also all over the threads until they were ejected.

To repeat myself, DU isn't that divided.

[Fumesucker]

21. Eh, DU is divided on bicycles just like it's divided on many things..

There were more than a few posters who thought mandatory bicycle helmets, insurance and licensing were a great idea because the PPACA now means that everyone is responsible for each other's health..

Quickest way to stop bicycle commuting dead in its tracks is to mandate helmet wearing by adults, I put up an OP about mandatory helmet wearing in cars and got thoroughly trashed, everyone loathes the idea of mandatory helmets for themselves, loves it for others.

[lunatica]

23. I was referencing what happened this weekend and the gun lovers

I didn't mean to get off the subject or highjack your thread, but I thought you referencing them too.

[Lizzie Poppet]

24. Both groups are right.

Both cyclists and gun owners are quite correct to object to some of the hysterical, irrational venom that gets directed their way when some incident makes the news. Rational, civil arguments are one thing, but there have also been posts that any reasonable person would respond to with a hearty "go fuck yourself."

[Amerigo Vespucci]

27. The only "anti bicycle venom" I have is reserved for Critical Mass...

...and that's because ounce for ounce, they're some of the most arrogant assholes on two legs...or two wheels.

They take great pleasure in intimidating, confronting and generally fucking with people who are simply trying to get to or from work or are in the process of picking up their kids and living their normal life.

So I have no shortage of venom for that group.

Individual bicycle riders?

I'd default to your own term here..."negligent"...I'm not going to applaud that kind of behavior in any scenario but don't believe that one person's "negligence" is necessarily a call to arms for mass behavior change.

[WI_DEM]

28. Every day I see bikes go thru red lights and stop signs without stopping. I walk quite

a bit and if I'm in the stop walk most cars stop to allow me to cross but bikes will just keep zooming thru. Not all bikers, but a majority of those I see don't obey basic rules of the road. If they are on the road they should obey the rules.

[Fumesucker]

30. Every day I see cars speeding...

In fact it's more usual to see cars speeding than it is to see them not speeding.

If they are on the road, they should obey the rules.

[MineralMan]

33. Everyone needs to observe the laws.

The fact is that they do not. Everyone should also be constantly aware of everything round them. The fact is that they do not. For both motorists and bicyclists, defensive driving and riding are crucial. The fact is that most people pay far less attention to the road and other traffic than they should. You avoided an accident by being alert and aware of overtaking traffic, and took evasive measures when the driver did not do as he or she should have. That is defensive riding, and it is a good thing you were doing that.

When I'm driving, I am always aware of conditions around me. I don't talk on cell phones, fiddle with the radio, or even engage in conversations with my passengers. Driving is a serious responsibility and I want to be certain that I don't cause any sort of accident and that I avoid accidents caused by others. So far, since I started driving in 1962, I've been in no accidents while driving. I obey all traffic laws and regulations. I wish everyone did the same. The fact is that they do not, so defensive driving is always required. I see bicyclists and motorcyclists. Always. They have an equal right to the road. Sadly, I also see both doing things that are dangerous to themselves far too frequently than I should.

[hfojvt]

76. yeah, if you obey all traffic laws and regulations

then you're Tigger.

Defensive driving is pretty much a necessity for a cyclist. Even a minor accident can hurt really bad. Whereas, in a wmd, you can do like I did. Slide into somebody on a snow-packed road at 20 mph, and neither get the slightest bit hurt, nor suffer any damage to my vehicle. And heck, thanks to liability insurance, it doesn't even cost anything.

Whatever dangerous things I have done on my bicycle, the fact remains that I have put enough miles on said vehicle to go around the world and then some, and I am still ticking. So I must be doing something right, regardless of your opinion of my rule-breaking.

[hfojvt]

75. me too

but I am usually on the bike when I see it.

It is generally so easy for me to dodge a pedestrian, except, oddly enough, when we are going in the same direction. Many is the time I have passed a fairly wide pedestrian walking right down the middle of the frigging path, and it always seems that if you try to pass them on the left, they will start drifting to the left as you begin to go there. I wonder if gravity helps to make that happen, or if it is just bad luck, or random chance and you don't notice the times it doesn't happen.

Yeah, rules schmules. Do you know why we have 4 way stops signs at every intersection in the downtown? Because they are the only things that keep the frigging motorists from driving way too fast. People behind the wheel of a weapon of mass destruction (as I call cars, which kill 40,000 people a year (without even trying!!!)) break the rules all the time.

To insist that I stop for a stop sign on an empty street, when my going through it harms precisely no one, just does not make any sense to me. It's unreasonable. I mean, come on. I am going about twelve mph. I am looking both ways, to avoid being pulverized by one of those motorized metal boxes. The street is empty. No pedestrians, and much like Iraq, no wmd. For me to come to a complete stop, re-start, go another block and stop, go another block and stop, and so on (because I work in the downtown, there is no way to avoid half a dozen stop signs on my way to work, even though I am only going 8 tenths of a mile) would add ridiculous amounts of time and effort to my commute.

And for no good reason other than to satisfy the absolutist rule following demands of others, who are more likely than not, not applying the same standards to their own driving (as by my estimate, approximately 90% of wmd operators seem to exceed the speed limit, myself included).

Yeah, put that down in the "not gonna happen" column.

[MineralMan]

80. And, yet, you expect the cars to all stop

at those 4-way stop signs you breeze through. Doesn't that slow down their commute, too? Shouldn't they be able to roll through, just like you do, to save time?

You have scorn for people who obey traffic laws. You just posted that scorn to me in the previous subthread. I doubt you even believe me. But, that's what I do. I observe speed limits. I stop at stop signs fully. I use my turn signals every time. I look carefully for bicycles and other traffic. I pay attention to what I'm doing. And you see that as some sort of flaw.

Sorry. Fortunately, I'll see you on your bike, assume that you may run the stop sign, and act accordingly. I've been doing that for years for bicyclists, and have avoided hitting any of them, because I'm following the traffic laws, even if they are not.

What's a "Tigger," other than a fictional character from Winnie the Pooh?

[hfojvt]

148. Tiggers are bouncy, flouncy, trouncy, downcy, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun

but the wunnerful thing about Tiggers is - I'm the only one.

Or, in this case, you are.

Where did I ever imply it was a flaw? it would be nice if more motorists at least tried to obey the speed limit. But I am not gonna hold my breath, or even stamp my foot

As for the car stopping, it is considerably less effort to start and stop a car repeatedly. That motor and the combustion of gasoline does something like 99.44% of the work - unlike on a bicycle. They are also capable of much greater speeds and of causing much more damage should the driver be somehow wrong about the emptiness of the intersection/crosswalk.

You are the one who posted scorn for all those bicyclists you see doing dangerous things. I said, yeah, they are so dangerous, I have done them for over 25,000 miles without hurting anybody.

[Javaman]

29. Wait, what? the thread is from nov of '11.

and the last comment was from that same month.

and you are only now concerned about this?

This has to be one of the most confused sense of outrages I have read on DU in years.

more over, that is from the old DU. is data mining your hobby?

[Fumesucker]

31. No, just making a point about the severity of the crime and the reaction here on DU..

Bicyclist negligently but accidentally kills someone, calls for all bicyclists to be licensed and insured, much vitriol against bicyclists

Gun owner deliberately kills a dozen and wounds many more, we can do nothing at all about it and the poor gun owners are the victims because people are talking nasty about their toys..

If it helps explain things a bit to you I got run off the road on my way back from the store this morning by some asshole in a car and it brought that story back to my mind.. I was still pretty ticked when I got back and just ranted..

[Javaman]

38. at least you didn't suffer paralysis...

as I did when I got cut off by a drunk driver when I was riding one sunday morning 20 years ago.

I almost lost all my front teeth and the sight in my right eye as well.

However, I understand your rant but still the incident took place last november.

[Fumesucker]

41. No, the incident took place this morning..

But seriously, that doesn't mean the reaction would be different here if it took place today, I'd be extremely surprised if DU had changed that much that quickly. I've seen enough replays of different conflicts to be able to predict a bunch of them quite accurately.

I just found the whole thing occupying my mind big time on my way back after getting back on the road, there was a bicycle hating DUer behind the wheel of that car in my mind..

[loli phabay]

62. the rage dam just burst it seems

[HopeHoops]

32. You can pry my bicycle from my cold dead hands.

[cliffordu]

35. LOL. Yep, me too.

[HopeHoops]

42. We also have two tandem bicycles. Great way to travel.

[cliffordu]

52. Getting ready for a ride from Port Townsend, Wa to Salem Oregon

next week -

Next month up the McKenzie River Highway, Eugene to Bend.....

In Sept I'm riding down the west coast - Portland to San Francisco, maybe points south of there.....

I'd like to ride south and just not stop for the next five years or so.....

[Logical]

89. Then follow the fucking road rules!

[cliffordu]

91. WTF makes you think we don't??

[HopeHoops]

150. Roads? We don' need no stinkin' roads, mon.

[Romulox]

36. I get hassled by cars when I ride NO MATTER WHAT I'M DOING. The Stop Sign thing is an excuse.

My theory of why so many motorists hate bikes? Body image issues.

[Fumesucker]

45. I've been riding a recumbent Bike E for about five years now..

I get a good bit less grief from drivers on it than I used to on a standard Diamond Frame bike, lots of kids wave at me and some grownups too.. It helps to be looking at people instead of the ground..

[Romulox]

48. I've admired your bike before. It's cool that you get more respect now, but why?

I get way more courtesy and respect from drivers when I ride my mountain bike than my road bike (both in the road, though I'm merely traveling to the trail on my mtb.)

Frankly, I don't think my safety should be up to the caprice of whether drivers like my bike or not, or what I'm wearing.

[Fumesucker]

49. Being different I guess, it kind of startles people just a little..

I'm in the process of building a back to back tandem recumbent to ride with my grandkids, I have the frame bronze brazed together, the wheels fitted and one seat nearly finished, right now I'm working on the independent two wheel drive system..

My design is based on this and a few other similar examples I've found on the internet, the rear seat will be removable and I'm going to have a cargo platform that will attach in its place.

This one should have kids nearly falling out of the cars waving at me..

My plan is to be done by Labor Day, after I'm done playing with the grandkids for a while I plan on cruising for chicks on it somewhere that it's warm in the winter..

[Romulox]

72. Truly awesome plan fumesucker! I'd love to pics when it's done, or even W.I.P. pics. nt

[Fumesucker]

74. Daisy, Daisy..

Here's a few WIP pics..

Frame, about 90% finished, it lacks the bottom stiffening tube and bottom bracket shell on the front yet, I haven't decided what BB to use out of the several I have laying around.. I'm probably going to add one more stiffening tube to the rear triangle as well, it's a little too open still.




Front fork and wheel, the dropouts for the axle are not the final ones just temporary while I figure out the layout, routing the chain for a front wheel drive is tricky.. Once I get it all working the way I want I'll upgrade the running hardware components, no point in putting nice stuff to get scratched up on a prototype you're going to be hacking on..




Seat, it's made of purpleheart, a moderately exotic wood, I've had this apart several times now tweaking the curved shape for maximum comfort, that's why I used screws and all the slats aren't on.. The screws are antique brass that I salvaged from an upright piano that was headed to the scrap yard..

[Romulox]

79. You sir, are a mad genious (and I say that with huge admiration!)

Thanks for sharing, and please keep us updated, if you get a chance.

[CokeMachine]

84. Nice Shop!!

I'm not much of a bike person but I admire you're work

[frylock]

61. word..

some fat asshole sitting in his air conditioned car, sipping on his 64oz big gulp, and pissing and moaning because those damn cyclists don't stop at lights or stop signs. 99.99% of the time a cyclist does that, it has zero negative effect on anyone. this same asshole complaining about how cyclists need to obey the laws has no problem exceeding the posted speed limit by 10-20 mph. all the more reason that 90% of my ride time is on singletrack and truck trails.

[Romulox]

73. Here's a story: a toothless hillbilly in a pickup buzzes me...in the *bike lane*, and yells

"Get outta the road!"

I was so flabbergasted that all I could do was point at the sign and stammer, "It's. a. BIKE. LANE!!!!!" Of course, being a gentleman, I also offered the confused motorist the "cyclist's salute".

all the more reason that 90% of my ride time is on singletrack and truck trails.

Werd. That's exactly where I'm at, too. Still hard for me to stomach putting a bike in my car and driving somewhere to ride though. I'm the king of Dearborn, Michigan "bandit" mountain biking, for this reason. I take my trails where I can find them.

[frylock]

77. i had dropped my car off for service a couple weeks ago..

i like to load up a bike and drop it off on Friday night so it's the first car in on Saturday morning. well, i was riding back to the mechanic Saturday morning to pick it up, and sure enough some asshole wings a big gulp cup at me which narrowly misses my head. i wasn't even on the roadway, as i was riding my single speed 29er, which is geared at 32x19. not exactly great for riding on the road, but i didn't want to swap pedals on one of my squish bikes, and didn't really feel like clipping in. all i could do was flip the bird to that asshole. just felt absolutely helpless.

[Romulox]

78. Sorry to hear about the incident. Definitely a W.T.F. moment.

i wasn't even on the roadway, as i was riding my single speed 29er, which is geared at 32x19. not exactly great for riding on the road, but i didn't want to swap pedals on one of my squish bikes, and didn't really feel like clipping in. all i could do was flip the bird to that asshole. just felt absolutely helpless.

Small world. I'm about to take my Karate Monkey SS out right now (33/17 is more than fine for the flatlands of SE Michigan). And I totally ride my Monkey in the road--top out at about 17 mph when I am spinning my little heart out. Can't keep that up for long tho.

Hey, I have a question for you: I'm thinking about my first FS bike. I'm looking for a AM/trail/do everything bike. You have any recommendations for me, around 3 large? I'm heavily leaning toward the Salsa Horsethief, at the moment.

[frylock]

81. i'm real partial to Giant myself..

i have a 2007 Reign X1, and a 2008 Trance X1. they're both great framesets, and the Maestro suspension (which i believe is a modified DW Link) is just awesome. i rarely even use the propedal setting as i find the pedal bob to be pretty minimal anyway. but if i were to buy a new bike, i would probably lean toward the Transition Bandit. looks to be right in your price range. they also make a 29er version for $500 more:

http://transitionbikes.com/Bikes_Bandit.cfm?Token={ts_2012-07-25_15:22:14}-ead6a4673284d2b9-4BF46BD6-AB9D-0110-1FECE5E315C0354D

[Romulox]

153. Thanks for the advice. LBS is Giant. No transition dealers in Mich., tho. nt

[frylock]

154. are you near Tree Fort?

i love that place! i buy stuff from them all the time.

[Romulox]

155. Oh yeah. Bought my last bike from them! Very nice place to visit in person, too. nt

[frylock]

156. fyi... saw a post on Vital stating the new Giant Trance X 29er to be released in August..

5 inch 29er!

[Warren Stupidity]

39. When a bicycle is used to injure 70 people in a matter of minutes

you might have a point.

When there are on the order of 9000 murders committed every year using a bicycle, you might have a point.

There are a huge number of bicycle related injuries, many are serious, and the highest risk factor is male children aged 9-14. Helmets should be required by law.

[Fumesucker]

43. Why then does Holland not have mandatory helmets?

Most bicycle centric western nation, universal health care and practically no one wears a helmet, even a lot of children..

Are the Dutch just stupid and ignorant?

[Warren Stupidity]

46. I have no idea. Bicycle helmets are a really good idea. So are trigger locks.

But again, when bicycles are routinely used to deliberately kill people, and are used to do so in large numbers, regulation would be in order.

[HuckleB]

94. Most of Holland is flat, with a good infrastructure for cycling.

The same cannot be said for the US. One cannot make such a simple comparison, when the concern is in regard to safety.

[Fumesucker]

97. Ah, people don't have bike crashes where it's flat..

I should have figured that out..

[HuckleB]

98. Is that your final response?

[Fumesucker]

99. It was your argument that Holland is flat and hence less dangerous for bikes..

So you're laughing at your own claim..

[HuckleB]

101. Oh goodness.

It appears that you're argument is "because some accidents do happen in Holland, therefore Holland is not a safer place to cycle than anywhere else."

If it's not, then what are you saying?

[Fumesucker]

107. We were discussing your claim that Holland is safe for bicycles because it's flat..

Why is flatness of terrain a safety feature for bicyclists?

[HuckleB]

110. I noted that it was safer.

You seem to think that you can simply change that to "safe," in order to push your nonsense.

This type of logical fallacy game playing seems to be your only way of interacting with others.

Why is that?

[Fumesucker]

112. We were discussing the terrain specifically and your claim it made it made bicycling safer..

Evidently enough safer that mandatory bike helmets are not a feature of Dutch law..

[HuckleB]

123. It seems that you are just posting for the sake of posting.

It appears that the Dutch cycling environment is safer than in the US. Thus, one cannot conclude that helmets are not warranted in the US, simply because they are not warranted in Holland.

[Fumesucker]

137. I want to know what the contour of the land has to do with it?

That really escapes me..

Infrastructure I can understand making at least some difference in safety but why is Holland so much safer because it lacks hills?

[HuckleB]

138. For one, the contour of the land tends to make infrastructure easier.

It also tends to keep speeds to a certain range.

This is not hard stuff, and you continue to ignore the bottom lines in order to feign whatever it is you find you need to feign.

[Fumesucker]

139. You mean because America is built for cars therefore bicyclists should be mandated to wear helmets.

That's what your argument essentially boils down to.

[HuckleB]

140. Nice spin.

In other words, you refuse to care about what matters. Yes, unfortunately, the US does not have good cycling infrastructure. Oh, and also we tend to have many more hills and other things that can be dangerous for cyclists. Oddly, you don't seem to think that any of that matters. It's all about your ego. BORING!

[Fumesucker]

141. Why do you want to keep people off bicycles?

Seriously, that's the upshot of mandatory helmets, there are a lot of people that simply won't put one on, make helmets mandatory and there's no chance they'll get on a bike.

The health benefits of routine bicycling to cardiac fitness are undeniable, that bicycling also has a downside is no reason to try and keep people from engaging in it.

A helmet is a pain the ass to keep track of when you're not on the bike, readily stolen if you leave it with the bike and it's insufferably hot in anything beyond the mildest of weather when you're also exercising. You will finish your bike ride in warm weather looking like you dunked your head in a bucket of sweat, most people won't deal with it.

I happen to have quite short hair and not all that much of it, since I'm retired I also don't have to care about appearances much so it's not as much of an issue for me as it with a great many people.

ETA: BTW, thanks for an enjoyable argument about something other than guns, I was really getting tired of that..

[HuckleB]

122. PS:

Bicycle Use and Safety In Paris, Boston, and Amsterdam
http://www.aaafoundation.org/pdf/bikeuse_PBA.pdf

Three types of safety
http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2008/09/three-types-of-safety.html

How to Make Biking Mainstream: Lessons from the Dutch
http://www.yesmagazine.org/planet/how-to-make-biking-mainstream-lessons-from-the-dutch

[Prism]

50. Sigh. Yeah, I hear you. I was nearly killed yesterday.

I commute on my bike here in the Berkeley area - so-called environmentally friendly, bike-promoting Berkeley, where every commute is like a new sequel to Road Warrior. I love getting run off the road right next to a "Share the Path" sign, just because I like my near-death experiences to be marinating in irony.

I was in a left turn lane. Signaled, helmeted, obeying the laws. I go to make the turn, and a guy in the opposite left turn lane decided he did not care to wait for the other cars and veered out and gunned it. He missed me by about three inches while going maybe thirty or forty miles an hour head-on. I was so rattled and shaking, I walked the last mile.

I'm honestly close to up and buying a car. It's just too dangerous around here. Every week, if I am not nearly killed once or twice, I don't feel like I'm really commuting.

[xchrom]

51. du rec. nt

[Peregrine Took]

53. DU has become a mean place.

I can't believe the people that post here are any kind of Democrat that I ever knew. Just as mean spirited as Limbaugh, etc.

[Initech]

59. Not to mention I've seen a lot of false equivalency arguments on here lately.

The kind of thing the Limbaughs and Hannitys of the world thrive on.

[NewMoonTherian]

55. Teen on Bicycle Causes Thousands In Damage.

[IMG][/IMG]


Seriously, though, I don't want to restrict bicycles or guns. I get just as upset as anyone else when these incidents take place, but imposing even worse restrictions than we already have is not the solution.

[Posteritatis]

57. Oh lord, flashbacks. (nt)

[Posteritatis]

56. To be fair, the mention of bicycles causes a 20-point IQ drop just about everywhere.

It's one of those automatic road-rage generation topics, and actually manages to be significantly dumber than a lot of the stuff going on here about this mess.

[Alduin]

58. I didn't see a bicycle being used to harm 58 people and kill 12 in a movie theater.

[pnwmom]

60. Horrors! Mandatory bike helmets! Who wants to reduce serious head injuries

in bicyclists? Not me!

[Fumesucker]

90. And yet in Holland where the bicycle is more common than the car...

And they have actual universal health care..

Practically no one wears a helmet..

Could it perhaps be that your perception of bicycles as horribly dangerous is a bit extreme?

There are health benefits to bicycle riding that I suspect more than statistically offset any possible potential injury. Mandatory helmets will keep a great many people off bikes that would otherwise ride.

[pnwmom]

100. Who said I thought bicycling was "horribly dangerous"?

But I don't think helmets are horribly onerous, and I think that the risk/benefit calculation supports their use.

[HuckleB]

102. It's an odd logical fallacy that the OP appears to be trying out.

One must only use safety gear when participating in a "horribly dangerous" activity.

[Fumesucker]

106. One does not wear safety gear when not engaged in dangerous activities..

That is the entire purpose of safety gear, to ameliorate danger.

People associate wearing helmets with danger and rightfully so.

[HuckleB]

109. Oh brother.

In other words, you want to only discuss things based on your definitions.

Why bother engaging with others at all?

[Fumesucker]

111. Do you wear safety gear when on your couch watching TV?

Keep in mind laying on your couch watching TV might be more dangerous than riding a bicycle, if you lay on your couch watching TV enough there's a distinctly non-zero chance it will cause your premature demise..

[HuckleB]

124. Your post has nothing to do with whether or not it's smart to wear a cycling helmet.

How do you fail to understand that?

[Fumesucker]

127. My point is about perceptions of danger..

And that mandatory helmet wearing keeps people off bikes for everyday purposes, there are at least a couple of reasons this is true. The first reason is grooming, a helmet will soak your hair with sweat. The second reason is convenience, what do you do with the helmet when you're off the bike?

You have tried to put forth the idea that bicycles are inherently safe in the Netherlands and inherently unsafe in America, that doesn't fly.

[HuckleB]

130. You have an anecdotal theory, but nothing but your own definitions and anecdotes to support it.

I have put forth the idea that cycling in the Netherlands is much safer than in the US, and the evidence backs that up. You seem to believe that you can pretend otherwise. That doesn't work at all.

[Fumesucker]

132. I've presented more evidence in this thread than you have..

I posted a video of the Netherlands showing almost no one wearing a helmet..

You have posted nothing but your own words..

[HuckleB]

134. Bzzzzzt. Wrong.

Now you're lying, and you know it.

Besides, who ever said anything other than few people use helmets in the Netherlands?

[pnwmom]

114. One of my kids' teachers fell off a bike and suffered a serious head injury

and a seizure. At about the same time, U.W. came out with some research that helmets greatly reduced the chance of serious head injuries. The injured teacher, of course, became a huge proponent of helmets. And her example was all the proof I needed that smart people exercising reasonable caution can still get seriously hurt on a bike. (If you're ever seriously injured, it is no comfort to know that your injury was rare, particularly if it was preventable.)

In making a risk/benefit analysis like this, there are several things to consider.

How likely is the negative event?
How severe is the negative event?
How effective is the preventative measure?
How difficult (or costly) is the preventative measure?

The likelihood of a head injury to a bicycle rider may be small, but if it happens, it can be catastrophic. A helmet greatly reduces the chance of such an injury, and isn't difficult to use.

If a helmet were hugely expensive or difficult or painful to wear, that would change the equation. But, as it is, I think it's worth the minor inconvenience and cost -- and even "helmet hair" -- to wear one.

[Fumesucker]

116. Smart people exercising reasonable caution can still get seriously hurt on in a car..

That's why I proposed mandatory helmets in cars a few weeks back in an OP of mine..

In an air conditioned car a helmet is less onerous than it is out in the heat while you are sweating from exercise, your hair wont' become a sopping, dripping mass like it does wearing a helmet on a bike in anything beyond very mild temperatures.

Even Skinner dropped in to say that my proposal was probably technically correct but collectively nonsense, people hated, hated, hated the idea..

[pnwmom]

118. Maybe bicyclists wouldn't need helmets if they had front and side airbags?

[Fumesucker]

119. Which airbags only work at the moment of first impact..

After the initial impact the bags deflate very rapidly, if your incident is not over by the time the bags deflate they might as well not be there..

What, you think no one dies from head trauma in car crashes?

[pnwmom]

120. So do you personally wear helmets in cars?

Somehow I doubt it.

[Fumesucker]

121. We were talking mandatory safety gear, at the moment helmets are not mandatory in cars..

But then I don't always wear a bike helmet either.

Once again, if the cost/benefit calculation is so clear then why have the Dutch, who are arguably far more socialist than Americans, not passed a mandatory helmet law?

If anyone should know of the dangers of bicycle riding without helmets it would be the most bicycle centric nation of the developed world...

I'm really not being snarky here, it's a question that actually perplexes me to an extent..

[pnwmom]

126. "Old habits die hard" probably applies here. n/t

[Fumesucker]

128. I bet I've worn protective headgear at least an order of magnitude more hours than you..

Construction work and commuting by motorcycle, wear a hardhat all day at work and a full coverage motorcycle helmet for another couple of hours on my commute.

I know both the positives and the negatives of protective headgear wearing from personal experience.

[pnwmom]

129. I bet you have, too. Maybe we can agree on this:

whatever decision an individual chooses to make, based on a reasoned risk/benefit calculation, parents should be teaching children to wear helmets.

[Fumesucker]

136. The psychology of safety devices is interesting..

Antilock braking, ABS, should lower the accident rate by a noticeable amount because it allows improved braking performance by a significant factor.

Studies have shown though that the accident rate with ABS cars is almost exactly the same as with non ABS..

Why might this be?

People with ABS assume they have "superbrakes" that will get them out of anything and then tend to take more chances and put off braking until later than they would otherwise, thus compensating for the improved braking.

Children should wear helmets, adults should make their own cost/benefit calculation.

Standard bicycles are more dangerous than really need be because in an accident you very often end up going head first over the handlebar when the front wheel comes out from under you, my style of bike if you lay down you end up going feet first most of the time..

[Bluenorthwest]

151. The Dutch have many factors most American places do not share, first being universal awareness

of bikes on the road, another being the infrastructure for bikes. My city is better than most US cities, more biking and one of the reasons for that is this:
42 miles of shared-use paths,
81 miles of on-street bicycle lanes,
35 miles of signed bikeways, and
5 bicycle/pedestrian bridges spanning the Willamette River
2 bicycle/pedestrian bridges spanning major roads or highways

And helmets are mandatory for those under 16. Did you know that a full 85% of those who die on a bike are 16 or under? So if you are 17 or older, optional helmet for you here.

[Fumesucker]

152. Helmets are not mandatory for adults where I live either..

However there are a significant number of DUers who think helmets should be mandatory, I'm really speaking to them.

It seems to me that even in the developed nations the more bikes on the road there are being used for actual transportation rather than pure recreation the lower the percentage of riders who wear helmets. There may well be some principle at work here and I think I may have at least a clue, people basically loathe protective headgear when they start to perspire..

For the most part people accept protective headgear for work or play, for commuting/shopping type trips they are far less likely to use it.

[HuckleB]

125. Exactly.

+1

[Fumesucker]

104. Hmm.. And yet when I proposed mandatory helmets in cars a couple of weeks ago as a safety measure..

I got roasted big time, practically everyone loathed the idea.

If helmets on bikes are not onerous why would they be onerous to wear in a car?

Keep in mind that in a car you have somewhere reasonably theft proof to store your helmet and don't have to drag it with you everywhere you go, not so with a bike.

[Edweird]

67. If it's any consolation I'm on your side.

[LadyHawkAZ]

68. OK...

I don't mind taking the bait, just this once, even though I've been trying to avoid the gun threads like plague.

Bicycles should be taxed and licensed and require training. They want to be recognized as legitimate vehicles with the right to be on the road- fine, I have no problem with that, so let's treat them like any other vehicle on the road. Courses could be offered in school for various grades, and people could learn some basic common sense like "Don't ride three abreast on narrow country roads so you can chat with your buddies, it hold up traffic" and "Yes, the stoplight applies to you, too" and "It's a much better idea to crack this here replaceable plastic helmet than your irreplaceable skull" and all the other little things that all riders should know but don't. I had to do training for my drivers license and motorcycle endorsement, it won't kill people to do it for bikes- quite the opposite. How this is "outrageous venom" I don't know.

Most of what I just said is also true of guns. Just insert some different rules.

It will not undermine the 2nd Amendment to require safety training and licensing, like we do for other dangerous items with potential for mass harm- like cars. Here's the problem though- people get killed all the time, every day, by idiots in cars who are drinking, yapping on their cell or just plain don't know how to drive. We've even had people deliberately drive into crowds before. More people die daily from drunk drivers than were killed in the Aurora shooting. But we don't have an angry mob calling for the banning of all cars every time there's a drunk driving death or someone falls asleep at the wheel, or calling all car owners bad names and making snide remarks about their penis size. It's just possible there's a lesson there, if you think about it.

There's an understandable tendency to overreact to any tragedy and start Monday-morning quarterbacking on how it could have been avoided- I've noticed people coming from one direction with "Shoulda shot back!" and others from the other direction with "Shoulda banned guns!". I would like to issue the gentle reminder that in any society that contains humans, there will never be a way to avoid all tragedies; advocating courses of action, in anger, that would ultimately make things worse is not a good way to move forward.

And that's my first and last word on the subject. I will now commence trashing the gun threads like everyone else.

[Canuckistanian]

69. I'm with you

I'm a regular bike rider. Those bicycle helmet fascist laws are an impediment to the "pursuit of happiness" clause in the 2nd Amendment. Or was that the 4th? The 17th? Doesn't matter.

Anyway, STOP THE SLAUGHTER! BICYCLE HELMETS KILL!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

71. The RKBA crowd is used to being vilified, and comes to threads well prepared

Bicyclists tend to get fawned on so are unready for controversy.

I agree with you about the crap being dumped on bicyclists, even though I have seen accidents where they have killed others.

[HuckleB]

103. Hogwash.

Cyclists are quite used to be dumped on. Motorists love to blame cyclists for everything.

Try again.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

142. I was referring to DU

ITRW, depending where you live bicyclist are either on pedestals, targets, or non existent.

[tiny elvis]

108. always at the ready

[CokeMachine]

88. In my town --

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20120203/COMMUNITY/120209792?p=3&tc=pg

Between 2009 and 2011, bicyclists were determined to be at fault 75 percent of the time.

In contrast, in pedestrian collisions, cars were found to be at fault 85 percent of the time

I am very careful around bicycles. I even pull in the mirrors on my truck when I'm passing just to give a little extra room. For the most part the local cyclists are great at sharing the road. It's the tourists that cause most of the problems for the automobiles around here.

Be careful and take care

[HuckleB]

105. That's one look.

Here's another:

Drivers blamed as cycling deaths, injuries rise
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/drivers-blamed-as-cycling-deaths-injuries-rise/story-e6frea6u-1226426184908

[CokeMachine]

113. Thanks --

I read in the article that most of the accidents were on high speed roads. Not being familiar with Australia, I'm assuming they mean freeways -- am I incorrect? As far as I know Bicycles aren't allowed on freeways here. At least around here, there are signs that say they are prohibited at all freeway on-ramps.

I don't have any answers. All I can do share the road even if others don't.

Take Care!

[HuckleB]

131. Well, one answer is better infrastructure.

Improving the infrastructure for cycling may be much cheaper than consistently building bigger roads, at least in many areas. The Bay area would seem to be one strong candidate for that possibility.

On edit: I don't know enough to clarify your question about Australia. I just know that I've seen many studies over time on that issue, and they seem to contradict each other a lot.

[CokeMachine]

145. I agree about the infrastructure.

In Sonoma county (probably the whole state) it's a war for scarce funds. Roads are deterioriating badly. Cars want the roads fixed while bicyclists want new lanes. I'm not sure of the correct answer but something has to change.

Time for bed -- have a good night!!

[Fumesucker]

115. One group is required by law to ride in the street with the cars..

The other is not..

So pedestrians are only in the roadway when crossing them, a bicyclist is in the roadway all the time if they are following the law, a far more precarious position for someone not wrapped in the armor of a car.

I'd be interested to know how many pedestrian deaths have been caused by bicycles vs the number caused by cars?

[CokeMachine]

144. I don't have those numbers

When you find them I'd be interested in seeing them. I'd bet cars beat bikes but I'd like to see the percentage. I do believe there are many more cars than bikes on the road or sidewalks or crosswalks so the percentage would be interesting.

I added the pedestrian/car numbers just to show cars are not at all innocent. I believe you said that cars are at fault most of the time but that's not the case in Petaluma, CA or most of Sonoma County. I have no problem with bike riders. Just accept that you are not innocent all of the time regardless of the amount of body armor. The motto here is share the roads. That does not give the smaller vehicle more rights. It means we have the same rights on the road and must obey the same rules.

Pedestrians walk on sidewalks and cross streets. They are not sharing the road. They are using it to get to the next sidewalk. Pedestrians always have the right of way in cross walks but bikes are required to follow the rules of the road just as cars are required. I don't care about how much metal.

We have broken lines for right turns. This means that cars need to move as far to the right (next to the curb blocking the bike lane) as possible when making a right hand turn. This is to prevent bikes from pulling up in a blind spot when the light turns. It's a safety issue and a good one. I get the bicycle salute a few times a week for doing this. Most local cyclists know this but tourists don't and think the vehicle is messing with them. I even had one kick the back of my car for following the law. He called the cops. Guess who got the ticket and bill for the dent.

Bicyclists should be required to pass a test if they are going to share the road just like cars. They should at least have a basic knowledge of the laws of the road.

Take Care.

[Fumesucker]

146. I see your point and understand your concerns..

My concern is this, we are rapidly becoming a culture where if you don't have money or a license then walking is the only means of transportation you will be allowed. I'll be blunt, I bicycle because I can't afford a car at this juncture and probably won't for the foreseeable future.

Your complaint seem to be more about wealthy people with a feeling of entitlement(tourists on rented bikes are seldom poor and a poor person would probably not have called the cops like that).

We live in a large and often very spread out country that also has an exceedingly poor public transportation system, car, bicycle or walk are the basic choices for a great many Americans. It would take me about three hours to walk to the closest grocery store and back and I could only fetch what I can physically carry. On my bike I can make it in about 45 minutes round trip while sitting down and carry a lot more at the same time.

As I told someone else recently, I'm seeing a lot more people riding bicycles for basic transportation even out here in the exurban deep south, one of the last places you'd expect to see it. Five years ago nobody at all was riding bikes on the roads here, now I see bikes often with packages every time I go to the store. We have no bike lanes, we have no bike paths, we have no sidewalks, half the time we don't even have shoulders on the road, just a dropoff and people are still riding bikes anyway..

[CokeMachine]

147. I understand --

If you were out here you'd be in bike heaven. We have bike lanes that are 8-10 feet wide in most parts of the cities and towns. Most of the conflict happens on the narrow county roads. Most out here don't ride out of necessity but I can see where it will be more common in the future. They do it for sport, sightseeing and training for races. Some of our roads are even training tracks for international cycle teams. Petaluma, where I live is (was) a farming/ranching town of about 50K and there is a lot of disrespect on both sides -- I do my best to be tolerant of cyclists. It's the whole share the road thing.

Anyway, thanks for the civil discussion and have a great night.

CM

[HuckleB]

96. I walk to work, and many other places. I also cycle and drive an automobile.

There are poor pedestrians, poor cyclists and poor drivers.

Helmets for cyclists should be common sense in most places in the US. Unfortunately, as cycling gains popularity, common sense seems to be less and less likely among cyclists as a percentage of the whole. That's frustrating as a cyclist, and downright scary as an automobile driver.

No, cyclists should not be registered, though if I was already covered with insurance via my auto, I would look into some of insurance for cycling. It would be, again, common sense.

[kestrel91316]

133. DU has a very large, very vocal anti-bike faction.

I consider them RW trolls who finally got so irate they let the mask slip.

[HuckleB]

135. I don't think it's that large.

Vocal, yes. RW? Not necessarily.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

143. I haven't noticed that, but will take your word for it

[taterguy]

149. Not RW, just anti-spandex