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shraby

(21,946 posts)
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 01:54 PM Jan 2018

People who don't vaccinate their children are nuts!

From an old newspaper, I don't know how the parents dealt with a blow like this, and modern parents are courting disaster.

TAUGHER FOUR CHILDREN

Meeme news:
Anthony Taugher lost four children by diphtheria last week. On Wednesday,
the youngest whose age was about three years, died, and on the following day
the eyes of two others, whose ages were respectively five and seven, were
closed in death. The three were buried in one grave on Friday. On Saturday
another, aged about eleven fell a victim to the fell destroyer. This indeed
is a deep affliction and the disconsolate parents have the heartfelt sympathy
of every one in their terrible anguish and distress.
Manitowoc Pilot Thursday, January 27, 1881

40 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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People who don't vaccinate their children are nuts! (Original Post) shraby Jan 2018 OP
I agree with you TEB Jan 2018 #1
They are not only nuts and stupid, they are a danger The Velveteen Ocelot Jan 2018 #2
They're also dangerous and represent a public health danger. Bleacher Creature Jan 2018 #3
Not all are nuts, but most are ignorant Freethinker65 Jan 2018 #4
Some are nuts, many are selfish, all are ignorant uppityperson Jan 2018 #5
If they make kids wear space suits, no vaccinations ok Cicada Jan 2018 #6
"fell destroyer"... I must find ways to incorporate this phrase into my vocabulary. procon Jan 2018 #7
A big, fat K&R! CaliforniaPeggy Jan 2018 #8
O . . . Does anyone know what celebrity had a fair bot to do with this nonsense? Stinky The Clown Jan 2018 #9
Jenny McCarthy Johnny2X2X Jan 2018 #11
RFK Jr. too unfortunately. brush Jan 2018 #30
My grandma lost 3 siblings to small pox in the early 1900s nini Jan 2018 #10
How awful to lose four children! smirkymonkey Jan 2018 #12
I run across those types of obituaries often when getting shraby Jan 2018 #15
The children in the OP died before vaccinations existed. The Velveteen Ocelot Jan 2018 #19
Thanks for pointing that out. smirkymonkey Jan 2018 #23
And they're taking a free ride from herd immunity Ron Obvious Jan 2018 #13
Unfortunately, the OLD no longer used DPT vaccine did, rarely, cause deaths. pnwmom Jan 2018 #14
We used to line up at school and vaccinations were given in one day to all who didn't have them, shraby Jan 2018 #16
When I was 5, and after my sister had died, pnwmom Jan 2018 #17
It did happen, but it was exceedingly rare, even with the old vaccine. nt. Mariana Jan 2018 #20
When your family has one off those deaths, it doesn't matter how rare it is. pnwmom Jan 2018 #24
I agree. Mariana Jan 2018 #26
I was the poster you explained how few people it happened to. As I said, when it hits your family pnwmom Jan 2018 #28
The anti-vaccine movement has been with us as long as there have been vaccines. Mariana Jan 2018 #18
It's not as if deaths from the smallpox vaccine were nonexistent. The reason they stopped pnwmom Jan 2018 #25
From a public health standpoint, it was an easy call to make. Mariana Jan 2018 #27
Maybe so, but it's wrong to call the worried parents "nuts." pnwmom Jan 2018 #29
They can't say what happened? No autopsy? No symptoms prior? moriah Jan 2018 #33
I haven't interrogated the mother about it, but I do know pnwmom Jan 2018 #34
I understand about not interrogating, just surprised at no mention of symptoms prior. moriah Jan 2018 #35
The reason I don't know about symptoms is I didn't know the family at the time it happened. pnwmom Jan 2018 #38
Thank You RobinA Jan 2018 #40
How long ago was this please? brush Jan 2018 #31
The original DPT vaccine was approved in 1949. pnwmom Jan 2018 #32
Just in case no one else has said it specifically yet... moriah Jan 2018 #36
Thanks , Moriah. pnwmom Jan 2018 #37
Replys 4&5. NCTraveler Jan 2018 #21
Uh-oh. Be careful. Aristus Jan 2018 #22
Not too worried, I've been doing this from time to time with different cases to encourage people to shraby Jan 2018 #39

TEB

(12,827 posts)
1. I agree with you
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 01:58 PM
Jan 2018

My wife has a friend who is anti vaccine homeschooled her children. She is still anti vax to this day.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,615 posts)
2. They are not only nuts and stupid, they are a danger
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 01:59 PM
Jan 2018

to other people's children. That's why most schools require kids to be vaccinated before they can attend.

Bleacher Creature

(11,254 posts)
3. They're also dangerous and represent a public health danger.
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 02:00 PM
Jan 2018

They not only put their kids at risk, but also anyone else who is unable to be vaccinated for legitimate medical reasons.

Cicada

(4,533 posts)
6. If they make kids wear space suits, no vaccinations ok
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 02:36 PM
Jan 2018

But otherwise their kids are at risk, and others are at risk. We do not let Christian Science followers withhold life saving medical treatments from their children even though they may sincerely believe in their religion. Similarly we should not let parents put their children and others at risk even though they sincerely believe vaccines are harmful. Withholding vaccines should be a crime.

Johnny2X2X

(18,973 posts)
11. Jenny McCarthy
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 03:35 PM
Jan 2018

Jenny McCarthy was the biggest name. But Jim Carrey was involved too.

The literally have caused the deaths of too many children to count now.

nini

(16,672 posts)
10. My grandma lost 3 siblings to small pox in the early 1900s
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 03:33 PM
Jan 2018
She said her mother never got over it.
 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
12. How awful to lose four children!
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 04:04 PM
Jan 2018

Why are these people so stubborn? Don't they value their children's lives over their own stupid convictions?

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,615 posts)
19. The children in the OP died before vaccinations existed.
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 06:17 PM
Jan 2018

The article was posted as a warning for people who are still stupid.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
23. Thanks for pointing that out.
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 06:45 PM
Jan 2018

I didn't look at the date.

Also, diphtheria should have been a tip-off for me. Read too fast.

 

Ron Obvious

(6,261 posts)
13. And they're taking a free ride from herd immunity
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 04:08 PM
Jan 2018

Because most of the rest of us are responsible enough to vaccinate. I do have to shake my head at their scientific ignorance.

pnwmom

(108,959 posts)
14. Unfortunately, the OLD no longer used DPT vaccine did, rarely, cause deaths.
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 04:16 PM
Jan 2018

The anti-vaccine movement started decades ago, largely in response to that DPT vaccine. Also in response, the government set up the vaccine court to award damages for vaccine injuries. Also in response, researchers worked to develop a safer DPT vaccine and the government approved it.

The current split-cell DPT vaccine is much safer than the whole cell vaccine; and I recently have had it again, to help protect a newborn grandchild (who is fully vaccinated).

But my sister was given the old vaccine as a healthy six month old, developed encephalitis and died the next day. My mother's cousin also died after a DPT vaccine, and a niece had to stop her series because her fever was over 105. They and other babies like them are the reason that the anti-vaccine movement started. Doctors continued giving the more dangerous vaccine long after they knew about the risks, and it was only with the anti-vaccine movement that there was pressure for a safer vaccine. So I am grateful for that. And I would never say these patients are "nuts." I disagree with their decision, but there is a history behind the movement that many people are unaware of.

shraby

(21,946 posts)
16. We used to line up at school and vaccinations were given in one day to all who didn't have them,
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 04:19 PM
Jan 2018

and for new vaccinations that were discovered, for boosters, and whatever else they thought we needed. We didn't have to pay for any either. We also all lined up for tuberculosis tests from time to time.
I don't remember anyone even getting sick from them.
This was in the 1950s.

pnwmom

(108,959 posts)
17. When I was 5, and after my sister had died,
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 04:29 PM
Jan 2018

they told us all to line up at school for a vaccination.

I didn't know anything about my sister at the time (my mother didn't tell me till after my son had a terrible reaction), but I said NO. No one had warned me and I INSISTED that I wouldn't get a shot at school and I would only get a shot from my OWN DOCTOR. The teacher told me I'd have to stay in for recess then and I said fine, no recess. There was one other holdout (the smartest boy in the class) and he finally agreed to go if the teacher carried him.

They sent me home with a note and my mother took me to the doctor for the shot. This turned out to be a very good thing because my previous reactions had been so bad that the doctor was only giving me half doses. The school would have given me the same dose everyone else got. And I would have been at school having the reaction instead of at home.

And yes, I do remember how I felt. A fever for a week and a swollen, red-hot arm that I couldn't fit inside my coat -- on a half dose. You don't forget something like that.

pnwmom

(108,959 posts)
24. When your family has one off those deaths, it doesn't matter how rare it is.
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 07:19 PM
Jan 2018

Those families were RIGHT to push for a safer vaccine. If the government had acted more quickly (not waited for decades), then the anti-vaccine movement wouldn't have taken root.

Mariana

(14,854 posts)
26. I agree.
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 07:35 PM
Jan 2018

I was just explaining to the poster why few people knew anyone it happened to. It's because it happened to so few people.

The anti-vaccine movement has existed since the earliest vaccines. Every real problem with a vaccine strengthens it, but it has always been with us in various forms. There was a measles outbreak a few years ago because a church in Texas told the congregants that vaccination was against God's will (God apparently changed his mind after a bunch of kids got measles). So many people think they cause autism, even thought that idea has been thoroughly discredited. Some people believe that vaccines contain aborted human fetuses, and wont take them because of that. And so on.

pnwmom

(108,959 posts)
28. I was the poster you explained how few people it happened to. As I said, when it hits your family
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 07:47 PM
Jan 2018

that doesn't matter.

The reason the anti-vaccine movement has existed since the earliest vaccines is because there have been problems with vaccines since the very beginning. Remember the state of medical science when vaccines were first developed -- remember that "bleeding" used to be a cure offered by doctors -- and you will understand why people were less than trusting about mass vaccinations.

Modern day science has advanced considerably and modern day vaccines are much safer. But that doesn't mean people are "nuts" who question any particular vaccine. Today's "nut" may be tomorrow's vindicated parent.

For example, I couldn't get my pediatrician to give my 2nd child the inactivated polio vaccine -- the shot instead of the oral version. (I didn't want to take the chance of exposing an immune compromised relative to the live virus.) I finally learned that I could get the killed virus vaccine at the Public Health Dept., so we went there. When my NEXT child came along, the medical field had finally caught up. Now they were recommending for EVERYONE the killed virus vaccine I had had to beg for a few years earlier. Nothing had changed. All the data had been available when my 2nd child was getting his vaccine. But it took that long for the medical establishment to shift gears and switch to the safer vaccine.

Mariana

(14,854 posts)
18. The anti-vaccine movement has been with us as long as there have been vaccines.
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 06:14 PM
Jan 2018

I read an editorial against mandatory vaccination against smallpox for children attending school, published in a Providence RI newspaper in 1895 or 1896 - sadly I don't remember exactly which issue it was in, I was searching for something else when I happened upon it. It contained dire predictions of legions of physically maimed and mentally disabled children, if they had to take this vaccine. I really did sound exactly like the fears of autism that people have today.

pnwmom

(108,959 posts)
25. It's not as if deaths from the smallpox vaccine were nonexistent. The reason they stopped
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 07:32 PM
Jan 2018

giving it was that we had reached a point where there were more deaths from the vaccine than from natural smallpox in the population.

In the 12 years between 1948 and 1960, not a single person had died in the US from smallpox, but up to 300 had died from the vaccine, and "countless" more were severely injured by the vaccine.

It was a good thing that smallpox was eradicated. But it wasn't a good thing for the individual families who had lost loved ones from the vaccine. And it's not as if the state of science in the 1800's was anything like it is today.

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1413-81232011000200010&lng=en&nrm=iso&tlng=en

Dr. C. Henry Kempe, the earliest voice questioning the net benefit of routine smallpox vaccination in the ultimately successful movement to discontinue it, was an eminent virologist and pediatrician responsible for the development of an attenuated strain of smallpox vaccine for use on children with eczema, as well as a member of WHO's Expert Committee on Smallpox. He had treated over 10,000 cases of smallpox around the world, a third of which, he said, were fatal12; he could not be accused of naivete regarding the disease's effects. Drs. J. Michael Lane, J. Donald Millar, and John Neff all worked in the Smallpox Unit of the National Communicable Disease Center. Nowhere in the literature do these men challenge the value of vaccines in general, or the right of state and medical establishments to intervene in the bodies of their subjects. On the contrary, they prefaced their objections to routine smallpox vaccination in the U.S. with praise for the practice in other contexts: in raising the issue, Kempe noted that "[s]mallpox vaccination on a worldwide scale continues to be of infinite importance as a public health measure," and was careful to acknowledge that "there is little doubt that universal vaccination has stamped out smallpox in this country"13. Kempe and the others objected to routine smallpox vaccination not on the basis of a broader political or philosophical principle, but only on the basis of the vaccine's biomedical danger to the general U.S. population, which due to unique historical circumstances they felt now outweighed its biomedical benefit.

In 1960, Kempe gave an address presenting his concerns about the problematic side effects of smallpox vaccination, including mortality and significant morbidity13. He greatly expanded on the implications of these concerns in two 1965 articles published in prominent medical journals. In these, Kempe first proposed that the practice of routine smallpox vaccination in childhood was no longer justifiable. He felt that the vaccine's rate of serious complications was unacceptable in a population with a negligible risk of ever encountering the disease it protected against: since 1948, he noted, not a single person in the U.S. had died of smallpox, whereas he estimated that in this same time period 200-300 individuals had died as a direct consequence of the vaccination, with countless more suffering severe though non-fatal side effects12. Kempe found little support among his colleagues at this time: in a discussion section appended to his proposal in Pediatrics, Dr. Samuel Katz charged that "Dr. Kempe has opened Pandora's box deliberately," while Dr. Joel Alpert was anxious to "avoid the headline tomorrow morning that will say 'Pediatricians against vaccination.'" With few exceptions, Katz seemed to sum up the general reaction in his assertion that "I do not believe that many of us are prepared to go along with you in abandoning what we now have"13. Time magazine was more receptive to Kempe's ideas than were many of his fellow pediatricians: in two articles entitled "The two faces of smallpox" and "Eczema and vaccination," the magazine devoted a significant amount of space to Kempe's ideas, quoting his projected figures at length and without rebuttal14,15.

SNIP

This episode contributes to an interesting portrait of the polymorphous nature of anti-vaccinationism in U.S. history. Though historically opposition to vaccination has often been associated with countercultural challenges to the hegemony of the biomedical state, discontinuance of routine smallpox vaccination, as this article has sought to demonstrate, was agitated for and realized within a framework of biomedical authority and scientific legitimization. Indeed, opposition to vaccination has been, and continues to be, a complex issue with a remarkable ability to draw support from a wide range of political orientations and ideologies.


Mariana

(14,854 posts)
27. From a public health standpoint, it was an easy call to make.
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 07:41 PM
Jan 2018

Of course the families of those who die from vaccinations are devastated. Some people die from allergic reactions or other side effects of drugs that save many lives. We should do the best we can to make such things safe, but unfortunately nothing is 100% safe and it never can be.

pnwmom

(108,959 posts)
29. Maybe so, but it's wrong to call the worried parents "nuts."
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 07:51 PM
Jan 2018

I know one of those families, who refuse all vaccinations for their children. Their healthy baby died the day after his 6 month vaccines. (I don't know which vaccines he had that day, just the timing.) The doctors can't tell them why that happened, so they refuse vaccines for their living children.

I think no one should say the devastated parents are "nuts."

moriah

(8,311 posts)
33. They can't say what happened? No autopsy? No symptoms prior?
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 08:31 PM
Jan 2018

It's going to be sad if a crib death that happened to be on the same day as a doctor's appointment makes her next infant get whooping cough from an adult.

I know someone who had a very obvious vaccine reaction at about that age. High pitched screaming, complete refusal to feed, unable to be quieted. She was in the hospital a week -- the first half to get her through the worst of the brain swelling, then observation and assurances she was back to nursing well, etc. It was in 1988.

And while she still can't get vaccinated, and it has sucked because it meant she herself couldn't get the pertussis vaccine during her pregnancies so everyone else had to get them until the babies could get vaccinated. She's dependent on herd immunity, and is terrified every time she hears about church groups in our state coming back with preventable nasties that would likely be pretty bad for her as an adult.

pnwmom

(108,959 posts)
34. I haven't interrogated the mother about it, but I do know
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 08:38 PM
Jan 2018

that sometimes doctors just don't know what causes a death -- including some they call "crib death." That's basically a catch-all for every unexplained death in a baby.

Your friend's reaction was like my sister's, except she had seizures, too, and the doctors couldn't save her. And since I could even remember my reaction to my final shot, I was nervous a few years ago when they were recommending shots for grandparents. Fortunately, the new ones designed for adults are completely different. It didn't bother me any more than a flu shot. (But I volunteered to get it before my adult son. He'd had a reaction to the old vaccine that caused the doctors to withhold the pertussis part. When he got the vaccine, it was fine for him, too. The new version is much safer.)

moriah

(8,311 posts)
35. I understand about not interrogating, just surprised at no mention of symptoms prior.
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 09:09 PM
Jan 2018

Yours and my friend's experiences seem to be on the same page about severe reactions to vaccines being major events with pretty obvious and dramatic symptoms, not the kind of thing likely to be mislabeled as crib death. Perhaps an *allergic* reaction could manifest that way, anaphylaxis... but not the immune system overreacting and attacking the nervous system. And I do wish they'd been able to save your sis. I'm sorry.

I know even their near-miss made her mom not vaccinate the youngest two at all. It was bloody scary. They both decided to try the adult set once they were going to enter college, and had no reactions. But my friend.... her doctors say it's just too risky. She could be absolutely fine. Or she could end up with GBS. And with three kids... well, she has elected to stay as far away from churches that promote anti-vax as she can.

pnwmom

(108,959 posts)
38. The reason I don't know about symptoms is I didn't know the family at the time it happened.
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 09:47 PM
Jan 2018

I only met them ten years later, and somehow the topic came up about their having lost a baby -- and how. I didn't think to doubt her story, since my own sister had died from the vaccine. And I knew how painful the subject would be, even ten years later, so I didn't pry for any details.

RobinA

(9,886 posts)
40. Thank You
Tue Jan 16, 2018, 09:46 AM
Jan 2018

for drawing attention to the complexities of this issue. It is refreshing amongst the usual "anti-vaxers suck" rhetoric that usually gets thrown around here and attached to anybody who questions any vaccine. Vaccination has always been a numbers game. Some people will die from the disease, some people will die from the vaccination. The calculation is that if fewer people die from the vax than the disease it's statistically a win. Thankfully, this is becoming less of a problem, but any medical intervention is going to kill someone, and if your family member is that unlucky someone you are, sadly, on the wrong side of statistics.

It also has to be remembered that medicine is in quite a different place than it was when the vaccinations got their start. One example of this is measles, the death rate from which started to decline markedly BEFORE the vaccine came along. That said, I would vaccinate my children if I had them, and no smallpox vax makes me nervous, but I do think the vaccination protocol needs to be revisited from time to time.

pnwmom

(108,959 posts)
32. The original DPT vaccine was approved in 1949.
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 08:29 PM
Jan 2018

In 2000, the switch was made to the acellular vaccine.

So the original vaccine was given for about fifty years.

https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/209/suppl_1/S24/2192732

Although the recent marked increase in reported pertussis cases in the United States and other countries [1] has stimulated interest in the development of new or improved pertussis vaccines, development and eventual approval of new vaccines offer many challenges [2]. Whole-cell pertussis (wP) vaccines generally resulted in acceptable control of the disease [3]; however, concerns over adverse reactions prompted an international effort to develop safer vaccines, culminating in the introduction of acellular pertussis (aP) vaccines during the 1990s. In the United States, aP vaccines have been used exclusively since about 2000. A similar shift from wP to aP vaccines has been seen in Europe and is currently being considered at a global level.

moriah

(8,311 posts)
36. Just in case no one else has said it specifically yet...
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 09:23 PM
Jan 2018

I'm very sorry they weren't able to save your sister.

I do personally disagree with your assessment that the "anti-vax" movement started there, though, and more blame the people who decided to associate the widening of criteria for autism spectrum disorders with vaccines.

I'd say people like your parents probably helped start a "safe vaccination" campaign. Which I have no problems with and would definitely distinguish from people who have gone head-first into the land of badly used statistics.

pnwmom

(108,959 posts)
37. Thanks , Moriah.
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 09:30 PM
Jan 2018

I was young when it happened, so I really didn't think about the effects on my parents till I was a parent myself. To bring a perfectly healthy, adorable little baby for her well-baby check, and to watch her die from a vaccine that you okay'd.

So I am grateful for vaccines -- and grateful to the parents who started the fight for safer vaccines.

Aristus

(66,294 posts)
22. Uh-oh. Be careful.
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 06:21 PM
Jan 2018

By posting this, you're essentially inviting bad-tempered cranks to reply to this thread with ten different links, supposedly from reputable sources, that warn of the dangers of poorly-effective vaccines, ineffective vaccines, and harmful vaccines.

Every time, in my capacity as a medical provider, that I encourage my fellow DU-ers to get their vaccines, especially the yearly flu vaccine, I get the usual gang of idiots castigating me for not understanding that the vaccine "causes the flu", that "I never get sick, so I don't need the vaccine", "They got this year's viral strain wrong, so there's no point..." and so on.

It's like trying to eradicate crabgrass...

shraby

(21,946 posts)
39. Not too worried, I've been doing this from time to time with different cases to encourage people to
Tue Jan 16, 2018, 02:00 AM
Jan 2018

get their kids protected.

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