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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHillary Clinton slams anti-Israel protests on college campuses, says students have been fed propaganda
I have had many conversations with a lot of young people over the last many months. They dont know very much at all about the history of the Middle East or frankly about history in many areas of the world, including in our own country, Clinton tells MSNBCs Morning Joe.
With respect to the Middle East, they dont know that under the bringing together of the Israelis and the Palestinians by my husband then-Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak, the then-head of the Palestinian Liberation Organization Yasser Arafat an offer was made to the Palestinians for a state on 96% of the existing territory occupied by the Palestinians with 4% of Israel to be given to reach 100% of the amount of territory that was hoped for.
--snip--
Anybody who is teaching in a university or anyone who is putting content on social media should be held responsible for what they include and what they exclude. So much of what were seeing, particularly on TikTok, about whats going on in the Middle East is willfully false, but its also incredibly slanted, pro-Hamas, anti-Israel.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hillary-clinton-slams-anti-israel-protests-on-college-campuses-says-students-have-been-fed-propaganda/
Hillary Clinton is currently a Professor of International and Public Affairs at Columbia University.
On edit: for reference, here is the link to the entire segment:
https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/-propaganda-is-not-education-hillary-clinton-on-combating-misinformation-in-schools-and-online-210572870000
Thanks, chowder66 !
sarisataka
(18,966 posts)You should probably add an ISO 21482 warning.
Elessar Zappa
(14,163 posts)Not sure what we can do about it other than respond with the truth.
markodochartaigh
(1,199 posts)We had a strong wake-up call with Cambridge Analytica in 2015 and I fear that we have wasted our warning.
How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and how hard it is to undo that work again!" - Autobiographical dictation, 2 December 1906. Published in Autobiography of Mark Twain, Volume 2
JoseBalow
(2,690 posts)demosincebirth
(12,558 posts)Magas.
elocs
(22,671 posts)Hopefully, Hillary will be the only Democrat to lose a presidential election to Trump and I bet she feels the same.
subscribe to that method of determining truth.
But telling the truth can cost someone their account here. Too many people are unwilling to hear it if it hurts.
That being said, and as usual, Hillary is spot on correct.
betsuni
(25,877 posts)marybourg
(12,654 posts)the pro-Hamas activists and their supporters, including here on DU, is vast. They know nothing of the 75 years of refusal by the Palestinians to form a state unless they can eliminate Israel. Of the decades of high and low level terrorism perpetrated on Israel which caused the former occupation and the current blockade. Many of them dont even know that Gaza and the West Bank are two separate and unconnected territories with separate governments.
I dont expect most young people to have a clear take on Middle Eastern history, but if they are going to oppose one group and back another with civil disorder, thats the point at which they should have been educating themselves, and not just falling in line with the ego-tripping ultra-left.
Can't recommend your post enough. Very accurate and well said.
yardwork
(61,849 posts)Way too much of this is being perpetuated by faculty who ought to know better, but don't.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)Are you confusing "pro-Palestinian" with "pro-hamas" by any chance?
tritsofme
(17,458 posts)I dont understand why anyone would think that!
AZSkiffyGeek
(11,222 posts)Theyll go back under their bridge eventually.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)NickB79
(19,310 posts)A lot of us have, unfortunately.
revmclaren
(2,587 posts)because of its WTF Vibes.
There are many here that say they haven't seen it. Hundreds I'm sure did.
Nobody here who did wants to be the one who's post is hidden for 'calling out' a DUer by posting the proof.
Sometimes though...I think the risk may be worth it. But only on my terms and time if ever.
yardwork
(61,849 posts)There are thousands of posts on DU every day - nobody could possibly see them all. When posters say "I never saw a post like that so it doesn't exist!" they're being ridiculous.
There are plenty of pro-Hamas things said on DU and elsewhere. We all know it.
betsuni
(25,877 posts)betsuni
(25,877 posts)It's just being nice and polite and in solidarity *screams obscenities and threats at random passersby*
Cha
(298,289 posts)bloody want but Not a good look to deny the reality of what These fucking Terrorists are called.
Clue.. it's Not "Terrorists.
JohnSJ
(92,584 posts)pro-hamas?
what bunk
obamanut2012
(26,207 posts)tritsofme
(17,458 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,993 posts)It appears that rather than engaging in civil discussion with people who don't agree with them, the default position for a few people is to start telling others to go back under their bridges. Nasty, but not the least bit surprising given the heat of the topic and not wanting to entertain anything that deviates from the hive-mind thinking that's taken up residence
lapucelle
(18,422 posts)have been posted here regularly. Here are two examples:
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)...can you give a clue about what an "axis of resistance" is and how is relates to the lack of pro-hamas posts on DU?
lapucelle
(18,422 posts)Any further questions ... sea below.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)...that there have been posts on DU that were in support of hamas?
(You can just clearly say that you have read DU posts in which the poster clearly states they support hamas, it's how discussion works).
lapucelle
(18,422 posts)You are free to draw the straight line from A to B concerning posted "news" that amplifies the message that Hamas, the Houthis, and Hezbollah as the "resistance".
If you are unable to draw that line, think about it a bit, and try again.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)...but you have read posts that include videos discussing the position that hamas claims?
(I apologize for makng an assumption about what the video shows, I can not view it as a still shot.)
lapucelle
(18,422 posts)Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)lapucelle
(18,422 posts)Launching a series of obtuse inquiries in the face of evidence is no one's definition of participating in a discussion.
But thanks for playing.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)lapucelle
(18,422 posts)ShazzieB
(16,707 posts)It's often hard to tell who is just upset about the killing and who is actually rooting for Hamas, because the waters have been so muddied by things like people chanting slogans they don't fully understand, due to the ignorance and misinformation Hillary noted.
I agree with Hillary that a lot of those students are not nearly as well-informed as they need to be about the history behind what's happening in the Middle East right now. That has made them vulnerable to being influenced by those who are pro-Hamas and anti-Israel, which is very unfortunate, to say the very least.
yardwork
(61,849 posts)misanthrope
(7,436 posts)shows how little they appreciate what a bloody mess it all is.
yardwork
(61,849 posts)I've never seen such entitled behavior combined with sheer ignorance.
wnylib
(21,845 posts)for a long time.
I've been accused by some zealous posters here of being a RWer for pointing out pro Palestinian spin.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)...in the article Ms. Clinton talks about "pro-hamas" spin.
wnylib
(21,845 posts)that many slogans and terminology used at pro Palestinian protests are spin coming from groups and social media that promote Hamas propaganda. The SAME thing that Hillary has said in the OP, but I've been called a RW opponent of Dems.
I wonder how many people will pay attention to Madame Secretary's advice on getting informed and how many will cling to their beliefs in spin and decide that they know more than she does.
Cha
(298,289 posts)Shes up Against
Shes right, of course
I didnt know she was teaching International & Public Affairs at Columbia University. Good on her and good for the students!
Mahalo for this Beastly Boy 🕯️🕊️💙🌊🇺🇸😎
Aloha
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,550 posts)BannonsLiver
(16,552 posts)paleotn
(18,040 posts)Cha
(298,289 posts)emulatorloo
(44,286 posts)Hillary Clinton joined Morning Joe to address the spread of misinformation through platforms like TikTok and the role of education in combating propaganda, emphasizing the importance of teaching comprehensive history to counter slanted narratives, especially concerning the Middle East.
https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/-propaganda-is-not-education-hillary-clinton-on-combating-misinformation-in-schools-and-online-210572870000
p.s. Shes not campaigning as she is a private citizen. Shes a former Secretary of State who knows a fuck ton about the subjects she speaks on.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)...but it doesn't present any quotes from Ms. Clinton that suggests she "slammed" any protests, or even that she disagrees with the protests.
She does discuss the environment of false information found on the internet and social media (which is basically common knowledge) but other than the article author's opinion that there is a hidden meaning in her words, there is no indication from her words that such an opinion is valid.
If anything, that article itself presents a very good example of what Ms. Clinton is warning against when she does say:
"
People are on social media oftentimes to press an ideological, religious, financial or partisan political agenda. You dont get the facts, you dont get any kind of context.
paleotn
(18,040 posts)Rebels without a clue.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)...of the region, but I wanted to point out that the article author's opinion of what Ms. Clinton might have meant by her statements do not align with her statements, which is a hallmark of the "spin" she is lamenting in her actual statements.
paleotn
(18,040 posts)They not only don't know much about what's driving the conflict in Gaza, or much of about the rest of the world, or their own goddamn country. If that's not a slam, I don't know what is.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)...but she is slamming the amount of false information on social media, and the lack of historical knowledge by young people.
Two very different topics.
wnylib
(21,845 posts)historical knowledge of the region. Distorted history, aka propaganda, is promoted in terminology and slogans used at protests.
If students had better knowledge of the history of the region, they would not fall for and promote propaganda at protests.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)...she does not do that in the article.
She does lament a lack of historical reference by the youth, but nowhere does she "slam" the basic premise of protecting innocent lives, which is the basis of the protests.
Beastly Boy
(9,618 posts)According to HRC, ignorance, not any particular sentiments, is the basis of the protests. More specifically, ignorant people basing their narratives on ignorance and showing off their ignorance.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)Edit to add: I have very strong respect for Ms. Clinton and I hope that people will not continue to take her statements out of context to support their own narrative.
Ms. Clinton made excellent points in that interview about the state of our educational system and the dangers of social media twisting facts to influence political debates, and I believe people should refrain from doing that very thing to her statements on those topics.
Beastly Boy
(9,618 posts)She didn't speak about the state of our educational system at all. And her comments on the dangers of social media twisting facts were directed at the protesters whose ignorance she is speaking of.
She speaks of the Israel/Palestine conflict as a "very important piece of history to understand if you are going to take this kind of position". A clear reference to the protesters Joe Scarborough was ranting about and she was replying to.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)...the article in the OP is obviously not reliable information, in fact it is exactly the kind of propaganda she is warning about.
Here is the interview:
https://m.
Beastly Boy
(9,618 posts)And I checked it against the article. The quotes were accurate, the spin was expected, the information in the article checks out to be reliable.
She was responding to Joe, and in the context of her response, the kind of propaganda she is referring to is generated in social media, by god knows who, and this is what she finds unreliable, and dangerously so when spread by ignorant protesters.
That's essentially what the article states.
...Did YOU watch the original interview?
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)...source of legitimate info and not a tortured twisting of what Ms. Clinton said in the interview?
The title of the darn thing is an outright lie! She never even mentions the protests and although Joe did, her response was a complete statement on it's own pertaining to misinformation and the weakness of current education, only.
Beastly Boy
(9,618 posts)And the article checks out with the source. You can do the same thing yourself and see it checks out. This is the measure of the legitimacy of the information in the article, not my feelings.
This doesn't mean that the article doesn't contain things other than the information that legitimately checks out. If it didn't, there would be no purpose for the article - the source would be sufficient. But you never see articles that only contain the information present in the source, do you?
What HRC said did not appear out of the blue. All of it was in response to Joe's questions, and it is ridiculous to suggest that it was complete statement on its own. It was a response, not a soliloquy, for gawds sake!
And yes, the header is inconsistent with what you find in the article, but what you find in the article is consistent with HRC's interview. The deceptive header pissed me off too, as much as hundreds of other headers I come across that are inconsistent with the contents of their articles do. I noted my objection to it elsewhere in this thread.
ecstatic
(32,826 posts)I admit I messed up by commenting based on the excerpts alone.
mjvpi
(1,444 posts)..,
in the US. These students are not dummies. They want a ceasefire now. They are pro Palastian and not pro Hamas. There are many self described Jews for Peace.
One of the most hopeful day of my life was watching President Clinton get damn close to a workable peace. I truly believe that the assassination of Sadat was critically important to the long term success or failure of that agreement.
That being said, the students are against all of the death. Death that is augmented by my tax dollars
Diraven
(556 posts)It's so neutral it doesn't even say which side of the issue the young people are on.
Beastly Boy
(9,618 posts)Students and faculty alike.
Likewise, she expressed neither agreement nor disagreement with the protesters, she was merely appalled with their ignorance of history.
Both her opinions are hardly complimentary to the protests, though.
But I totally agree with you about the headline not matching the content. It has become epidemic across main stream media lately.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)lapfog_1
(29,250 posts)You would expect them to know geography ( and a little about the history ) of the region in question.
And yet when a protester actually talk to reporters and the reporter asks them "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.. what river and what sea are you chanting about in your protest?" and few of them actually know the answer.
Now if anyone asks them a question they simply say "We are not trained yet" or "You need to talk to the leaders of the protest". As if they have no knowledge or opinion or can't defend their own argument that Hamas are freedom fighters and the IDF are "genocidal monsters".
so, yeah, Hillary is "slamming" the students protesting.
Of course we live in the post violent computer game world now where every fact check is "he/she/they were DESTROYED by the fact checker" Or when confronted by a different opinion online or in a interview... "they were SLAMMED by whoever".
Honestly when I read those sort of headlines I expect pictures of blood and gore and body parts everywhere and not a mild rebuke or alternate set of facts or something. But I'm just old I guess.
Progressive dog
(6,937 posts)Here's just one of those quotes that you must have missed.
Anybody who is teaching in a university or anyone who is putting content on social media should be held responsible for what they include and what they exclude. So much of what were seeing, particularly on TikTok, about whats going on in the Middle East is willfully false, but its also incredibly slanted, pro-Hamas, anti-Israel.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)That article is a prime example of the online misinformation she is warning us about.
Progressive dog
(6,937 posts)I guess in you mind that isn't the same,
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)Progressive dog
(6,937 posts)I am discussing the actual quotes from Hillary in the article.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)...how the article author's statements and the headline of the article don't match what Ms. Clinton actually said.
My mistake, we are in agreement after all.
Progressive dog
(6,937 posts)Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)AnrothElf
(727 posts)Progressive dog
(6,937 posts)https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/they-have-no-idea-hillary-clinton-calls-out-pro-palestinian-protesters/ar-BB1iBFMW
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/06/us/hillary-clinton-wellesley-protests.html
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/05/10/nation/hillary-clinton-backlash-protesters/
The headlines speak for themselves. Some pro "Palestinian" protesters even showed up to protest against Hillary.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)Hillary Clinton email trove shows concern with Netanyahus psyche https://www.timesofisrael.com/hillary-clinton-email-trove-shows-concern-with-netanyahus-psyche/
Hillary Clinton pans Netanyahu as untrustworthy, says he has to go https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/hillary-clinton-pans-netanyahu-as-untrustworty-says-he-has-to-go/ar-BB1hXQ4H
Hillary Clinton Tells Hostages' Families: Netanyahu Busy With 'Politics and Personal Survival' https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2023-12-21/ty-article/.premium/hillary-clinton-to-hostages-families-netanyahu-busy-with-politics-personal-survival/0000018c-8c4b-da31-adff-8e4b67620000?v=1703214107413
Clintons tough talk with Netanyahu https://www.politico.com/story/2010/03/clintons-tough-talk-with-netanyahu-034349
Progressive dog
(6,937 posts)what she thinks about Netanyahu. What does one have to do with the other? She can certainly dislike Netanyahu without aligning herself with Hamas and she has.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)...and the protests (that she doesn't even discuss) have to do with each other?
Progressive dog
(6,937 posts)Ignoring what she actually said doesn't make it untrue.
She did discuss the protesters and that they were ignorant of history. Some people could stretch that to mean that it's OK for them to disrupt the life of other students. I don't and Hillary gave no indication that she did either.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)intheflow
(28,533 posts)From the likes of Jimmy Carter.
From Desmond Tutu.
From the United Nations.
From Amnesty International.
From Human Rights Watch.
From American Jews.
Sorry, HRC. Love ya, but you're on the wrong side of history, here.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)...it's clear to me that Ms. Clinton did not give an opinion on whether the protests are a positive thing or a negative thing.
That implication comes only from the article author's opinion on her words.
Butterflylady
(3,569 posts)I have to agree with her on that.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)...it's the current atrocities we seem to be focused on stopping.
ExciteBike66
(2,418 posts)But sure, some like to argue that an ancient prophecy means they can slaughter a bunch of kids.
emulatorloo
(44,286 posts)Because she is not saying what you seem to think shes saying.
Hillary Clinton joined Morning Joe to address the spread of misinformation through platforms like TikTok and the role of education in combating propaganda, emphasizing the importance of teaching comprehensive history to counter slanted narratives, especially concerning the Middle East.
https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/-propaganda-is-not-education-hillary-clinton-on-combating-misinformation-in-schools-and-online-210572870000
Torchlight
(3,492 posts)get deep under the skins of sealions to the point they begin unmasking themselves without realizing it.
And I certainly can't argue with her most common-sense assertion, that "Anybody who is teaching in a university or anyone who is putting content on social media should be held responsible for what they include and what they exclude."
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)...trying to get under people's skin, but I guess if you see it that way...
Torchlight
(3,492 posts)Maybe we just oten see only what best serves us.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)...to fit the pre-determined narrative of the article author, which is exactly what she was warning against believing.
Torchlight
(3,492 posts)a billion things. 'What a piece of work is a man.'
Maybe's help. A LOT.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)jimfields33
(16,250 posts)jimfields33
(16,250 posts)NickB79
(19,310 posts)You might not be familiar with the term.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
Getting under the skin of sealions is a good thing.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)betsuni
(25,877 posts)Cha
(298,289 posts)******* ********.
ETA~ & Boring.
betsuni
(25,877 posts)zing
ShazzieB
(16,707 posts)A troll is someone who intentonallly uses comments that are inflammatory or controversial to upset people, in order to stir things up and cause drama. They often don't really even care that much about the actual issues under discussion. All they care about is getting people upset, because they find it entertaining. That's NOT Hillary.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)SYFROYH
(34,186 posts)If a public university holds faculty responsible for a certain narrative on their personal social media then that would be a clear 1st Amendment violation.
BlueTsunami2018
(3,519 posts)But it will just fall on deaf ears. That propaganda is strong.
LisaM
(27,872 posts)She's absolutely right that most college students don't have full understanding of the conflict in the Middle East, including a lot of the protestors . I don't have a full enough understanding myself.
I wish that the media interviewing the college students would delve deeper into the issues and history of Israel and its neighbors and, frankly, test these students' actual knowledge. Most of the protests they've shown have been at Ivy League or other top-rated schools, so it shouldn't be that big an ask.
chowder66
(9,124 posts)Here is the full video segment. She is measured and very much concerned about fighting back disinformation.
https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/-propaganda-is-not-education-hillary-clinton-on-combating-misinformation-in-schools-and-online-210572870000
Beastly Boy
(9,618 posts)Specifically, she is concerned about ignorant people being ignorant of the fact that the Palestinians were offered 96% of all occupied territories in a two-state proposal as late as the year 2000, and they refused to take it.
A great tragedy of history, as she put it.
Nixie
(17,026 posts)a historically recent two-state solution and then they discussed that the Palestinian's refused because .... they knew they would get slaughtered by Hamas.
So she is correct, and Morning Joe's whole segment was correct about the protestor's willful ignorance about Hamas and historical context.
wnylib
(21,845 posts)at Fordham University of what they are protesting.
betsuni
(25,877 posts)wnylib
(21,845 posts)TheKentuckian
(25,035 posts)Marionettes of who and what?
SunSeeker
(51,896 posts)As Harry Truman said, "I never did give them hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was hell."
Response to Beastly Boy (Original post)
Post removed
AZLD4Candidate
(5,881 posts)Israel is evil, Ms. Clinton. Don't you know that?
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)Last edited Thu May 9, 2024, 09:32 PM - Edit history (1)
...much less which side she might be supporting.
She spoke only of misinformation being spread through social media and the internet, which I suspect everyone agrees with her on.
Here's her entire interview from a post by Rhiannon...
https://m.
AZLD4Candidate
(5,881 posts)And the targeting of civilians no one has proved has happened?
Or the genocide?
Come on, Israel is evil, Ms. Clinton. Why can't you say that?
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)Beastly Boy
(9,618 posts)Everything she said was a response to Joe's rant.
Sky Jewels
(7,227 posts)When I was a kid/teen, I honestly thought that "Palestinian" was a synonym for "terrorist." Those two words were bound together in the 70s and 80s.
It took me a long time to realize I'd been brainwashed into believing simplistic b.s.
Israel is committing genocide. The students are absolutely right to protest.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)...if I remember correctly the derogatory word "philistine", an intentional mispronunciation of "Palestinian" stems from all that.
Jedi Guy
(3,290 posts)The Philistines were an ancient people who lived in Canaan and predated the words "Palestine" or "Palestinian". The word "Palestine" derives from the Greek term given to the land of the Philistines, which was Philistia.
"Philistine" as a derogatory term is generally taken to mean "someone who disdains intellectual and artistic pursuits" and traces its roots to 17th-century Germany.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)...conflated Palestinians with the derogatory term, thanks!
Jedi Guy
(3,290 posts)Nice try, though.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)" The word "Palestine" derives from the Greek term given to the land of the Philistines, which was Philistia." ?
Jedi Guy
(3,290 posts)Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)Jedi Guy
(3,290 posts)There is zero connection between ancient Philistines and modern Palestinians (or 17th-century Palestinians, if you want to look at it that way) as a people. The Palestinians came to the area much later, long after the Philistines were gone.
Ergo, the derogatory term "philistine" has literally nothing to do with the Palestinians.
That's the (deliberate) obtuseness to which I was referring.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)" The word "Palestine" derives from the Greek term given to the land of the Philistines, which was Philistia." ?
Jedi Guy
(3,290 posts)Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)Jedi Guy
(3,290 posts)And you grasp that a land might be named after the people inhabiting it or that the people might take their name from the land they inhabit, right?
The Palestinians migrated to the region from the Arabian Peninsula long after it was named Philistia by the Greeks. They then took on the name "Palestinians" based on "Palestine" as it was derived from "Philistia". It does not mean they are the same people as the Philistines. You made that assumption based on what I said because it suited your bias and your purpose.
If nothing else, this conversation has revealed that you don't know much of anything about the history of the region in terms of land or people. The information is all out there, easily available using the search engine of your choice. I prefer Google, but supposedly the AI-powered Bing has some neat features.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)...the word philistine has been and is still used to refer to modern Palestinians is ridiculous.
Jedi Guy
(3,290 posts)One might call an enemy or opponent "philistines" to denote a lack of cultural, artistic, or intellectual achievement, so I can imagine Israelis referring to Palestinians in that context given the enmity between the two.
But "philistine" is not a slur that is associated specifically with Palestinians as other ethnic slurs are associated with specific ethnic groups, to the best of my knowledge. So I will absolutely deny that unless and until you cite a source, regardless of how ridiculous you think it is.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)"One might call an enemy or opponent "philistines" to denote a lack of cultural, artistic, or intellectual achievement, so I can imagine Israelis referring to Palestinians in that context given the enmity between the two. "
- https://democraticunderground.com/100218936393#post125
Jedi Guy
(3,290 posts)Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)Jedi Guy
(3,290 posts)As I said once in a previous engagement, feel free to get in the last word if you like, I won't bother to read it, let alone respond. You've made it plain what you are and why you're here and I know better than to bother now.
Have a great weekend.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)Beastly Boy
(9,618 posts)ignorance.
Israel is not committing genocide.
Sky Jewels
(7,227 posts)Also, quibbling over a definition doesnt erase the fact that Israel is slaughtering and starving tens of thousands of innocents and leveling Gaza.
The ignorance is coming from people who have only heard Israels side and dont know or care about the apartheid and other horrors Israel has imposed on Palestinians.
Beastly Boy
(9,618 posts)And I am not quibbling over definitions. They are a matter of law and are not quibblable. Yet, I see these definitions completely disregarded, defaced and misused, time and time again, and casually thrown around as if they are a meaningless piece of trivia and a figure of speech.
Why is it that every single mention of dead gazan children and civilians glosses over the fact that over 30,000 armed to the teeth terrorists, hundreds of their rocket launchers and dozens command and control centers were hiding behind the kids' backs while taking part in military hostilities? Why is it so inconceivable for so many people to concede that all those militants, their rockets, drones, RPGs and machine guns had something to do with the innocents being dead?
This is absurd.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)...is netanyahu's lack of honesty about his intentions which are made clear to the world by his actions.
Beastly Boy
(9,618 posts)That would be a scathing rejection of the authority of international law, wouldn't it?
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)...the only element of a charge of genocide that can not be immediately established, due to netanyahu's outlandish claims of "defense".
Beastly Boy
(9,618 posts)that my intent to pay for it cannot be immediately established.
In all other respects, I am its legitimate and proud owner, right?
Yhis makes even less sense than your previous post.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)Beastly Boy
(9,618 posts)in Netanyahu being convicted of a crime.
Statements to the effect that genocide had been committed are as legitimate as statements to the effect that I own a yacht.
Not yet. Thank you. In the mean time I will be working on proving my intent to pay for a yacht and leave ICC in charge of proving Netanyahu's intent, without further comments on the subject of genocide.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)...of the word is different from the legal definition of the charge of genocide, right?
Beastly Boy
(9,618 posts)It is meaningless in establishing culpability.
Yes, I do understand that. But it is different from "You are guilty of attempted murder" or "You are committing attempted murder" These are meant to accuse someone of a crime.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)...for an act people commonly call murder.
Beastly Boy
(9,618 posts)Just like "genocide" denotes intention. Sure, people use it as a metaphor, but it is meaningless in establishing guilt.
So let's call a spade a spade. Using "Genocide" without demonstrating intent is a metaphor that is meaningless in establishing guilt. In this respect, using "guilty of genocide" outside of the legal framework is an oxymoron.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)Beastly Boy
(9,618 posts)If this were the case, why would we need International Criminal Court? to rubberstamp the "people's" conclusions?
Who counts as "the people" anyway, and who doesn't? Let me guess, I wouldn't be among the "people"...
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)...it's shocking, I know, but people actually do reach conclusions about other people's actions that have absolutely nothing to do with whether that person is officially charged, prosecuted, and either convicted or aquitted of any particular crime.
For instance, some say that netanyahu is trying to kill off the Palestinian people and their culture, even though he has not been tried and convicted or aquitted of genocide, yet.
Beastly Boy
(9,618 posts)And it is shocking indeed to suggest that a legal term is interchangeable with populist sentiment of the day. Just as shocking is the presumption that unfounded conclusions carry any resemblance to due process of law.
"Some people" say all sorts of stuff, and it does not reflect on the law one bit. But when people say "genocide", they are referring to a specific crime, and when they say "guilty of genocide", they are referring to guilt of a crime already established by a legal authority on the subject. And when "some people" refer to a specific crime as if it had been established beyond doubt, it is a false reference which misappropriates a legal term to deceitfully attribute the weight of legal authority to their sentiments.
Just as "even though he has not been tried and convicted or acquitted of genocide, yet" falsely presumes, in order to make your sentiment appear to have some sort of legal foundation, that the trial is imminent in the near future.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)"Genocide" is also a common language term for when an entire culture is killed off.
Beastly Boy
(9,618 posts)And once again, you are demonstrating the pitfalls of appropriating "genocide" for use in common language. It allows people to associate the term with statements that are not only factually inaccurate, but excessively hyperbolic, opinionated and incendiary.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)...it's just a common word people us to describe the act of killing off an entire generation of a culture, just as any of the words ending with "cide' means "to kill" a thing. The word "pesticide" doesn't refer to the 'crime' of killing pests, just the act.
Beastly Boy
(9,618 posts)There is a clear distinction between "genocide" and "spermicide" despite "cide" being their common denominator, a coincidence that does not signify parity in any way. I will not insult your intelligence by trying to explain the difference.
You know full well what I am talking about, and I have no interest in responding to every deflection you throw my way.
Have a nice day.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)Beastly Boy
(9,618 posts)You don't seem to be disappointed, though. Or surprised.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)revmclaren
(2,587 posts)lapucelle
(18,422 posts)It's problem when a specific legal term is appropriated and then redefined to serve an agenda.
Link to tweet
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)...before it was applied to a criminal charge, but whatever.
lapucelle
(18,422 posts)The word was coined in 1944 in specific reference to the Nazi extermination of the Jews. It was recognized as a crime in 1946. The legal definition predates common usage.
https://www.etymonline.com/word/genocide#etymonline_v_6004
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)...it was coined as a word of reference in common language before it was applied to a criminal charge. Cool.
lapucelle
(18,422 posts)The word was coined in 1944 by a legal scholar in his analysis of Axis rule in Occupied Europe, and recognized as a crime two years later.
It was not in "common use" in the interim.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)The word was used in common language before it was used a legal term to signify a crime.
"The word genocide was first coined by Polish lawyer Raphäel Lemkin in 1944 in his book (edit to add: first common usage) Axis Rule in Occupied Europe. It consists of the Greek prefix genos, meaning race or tribe, and the Latin suffix cide, meaning killing. Lemkin developed the term partly in response to the Nazi policies of systematic murder of Jewish people during the Holocaust, but also in response to previous instances in history of targeted actions aimed at the destruction of particular groups of people. Later on, Raphäel Lemkin led the campaign to have genocide recognised and codified as an international crime." (highlights and edit mine)
From the link you provided: https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml
lapucelle
(18,422 posts)The word was not in "common usage" in the two year interim.
The NYT introduced its readers to the term in 1946.
https://www.nytimes.com/1946/08/26/archives/genocide.html
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)... in a publicly available published book 2 years before it was introduced into legal terminology (as opposed to common-usage).
Thank you for your input.
lapucelle
(18,422 posts)Your suspicions were wrong. The word "genocide" was not in common use before it became known as a new term for a specific crime.
It seems that you are trying to pin your hopes on "common-use", but you claimed what you claimed, and equivocation is not going to work.
And as a reminder for anyone staking a claim that the "common use" is not the appropriation of a word in the service of an agenda:
Link to tweet
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)...the term "common use" was being used as opposed to legal terminology.
And since the word was published in a publicly available book written for the common public, before it was used as a legal term to identify a criminal charge, I stand by my belief that the word "genocide" was indeed in common use before it became known as a new term for a specific crime.
lapucelle
(18,422 posts)Maybe you thought it sounded pithy at the time, but it was ill-advised.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)lapucelle
(18,422 posts)peggysue2
(10,894 posts)As always.
Her critics have been proven disastrously wrong. Which is why were still dealing with the the Trumpist scourge.
Think. Again.
(9,080 posts)...how bad the state of education system has become and how social media is being used to fill that void of actual knowledge with lies.
ecstatic
(32,826 posts)Serious question.
Beastly Boy
(9,618 posts)But I can't tell how serious it is because I have no clue of what you are talking about.
ecstatic
(32,826 posts)Why?
Beastly Boy
(9,618 posts)What does Biden's reference have to do with this article? In what way is Biden connected to it?
I am beginning to suspect that your question was not serious, or at least completely unrelated to the OP and this thread.
ecstatic
(32,826 posts)if Biden is misinformed too. Biden has referenced the issues that the students are protesting and now he has set a red line himself and threatened to withdraw support.
Beastly Boy
(9,618 posts)She said that the young people she spoke to don't know very much about the history of the Middle East.
Biden knows a lot about the history of the Middle East. Biden is not misinformed on it too.
Does this answer your question?
ecstatic
(32,826 posts)and specifically Israel and Palestine is very important context to have--we wouldn't be in this moment had previous Palestinian leaders accepted various offers.
However, most of the college students are protesting over current events--Gazans dying and starving from activities (atrocities) that appear to be supported by the United States.
Beastly Boy
(9,618 posts)That was your question, wasn't it? How hard is it ti stay on subject?
ecstatic
(32,826 posts)When you said that Hillary was not talking about the deaths and famine, I took you at your word, and therefore the question about Biden being misinformed became moot. And I already explained how Biden ties in -- he has concerns about the bombings and famines too as does most of his administration.
HOWEVER, my follow up comment was that knowing history is important but the students are protesting over CURRENT events. I really admire and respect Hillary but her comment appeared to be a tone-deaf deflection from the topic at hand.
Beastly Boy
(9,618 posts)And frankly, I have no idea where the next one will be coming from.
I don't know what compelled you to bring Biden into the conversation in the first place, since no reference to Biden was eve made before you brought him into the conversation. That was completely off subject. There is no connection between Biden being informed or misinformed and Hillary stating that the young people are poorly informed, which undermined the seriousness of your question from the start. Despite the obvious absence of connection between Hillary's interview and Biden's references to Gaza, you came back to Biden, twice more, implying there is a connection between the young people of Hillary's interview being misinformed and Biden being misinformed. That was not only off subject, but illogical. There is no logical explanation of how the two may be connected. If Biden is well informed, does it preclude the protesters being misinformed? Does Biden and the protesters addressing the same subject establish any connection between the their levels of competence in the subject?
Now you are saying history is important but students are protesting current events. Does this establish the sudents' competence in addressing current events? Well, Hillary answered you: their source of information is social media, a piss poor source that does nothing but reinforce their ignorance with more ignorance. I have no idea how this is related to history or why you are bringing this up. Off subject again.
I make it a point to stay on subject. If you can't, then by definition we will never get to the same page.
emulatorloo
(44,286 posts)Hillary Clinton joined Morning Joe to address the spread of misinformation through platforms like TikTok and the role of education in combating propaganda, emphasizing the importance of teaching comprehensive history to counter slanted narratives, especially concerning the Middle East.
https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/-propaganda-is-not-education-hillary-clinton-on-combating-misinformation-in-schools-and-online-210572870000
Then if you disagree you can make actual arguments against her points, rather than non-sequiturs about Biden.
ecstatic
(32,826 posts)Unfortunately, I believed the headline and the article excerpts from the OP and that was my mistake.
emulatorloo
(44,286 posts)LeftInTX
(25,902 posts)He delayed one arms shipment and has threatened Israel with future delays if they stage a full invasion of Rafah.
At the UNGA today, the US voted NO.
If you read all the details about the horse trading between Biden and Israel, you will see that Biden has been holding this over Israel for months. He told them in January that if they invade Rafah, he will withhold arms. He didn't just "wake up". He's trying to prevent civilian deaths due to relocation and the closing of the Rafah crossing. He's not pursuing a unilateral cease fire that protesters are seeking. He's not going to divest from or boycott Israel.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,260 posts)frightening. Everytime they interview one of these "protesters", it just happens to be the token Jewish kid who's supposed to lend credibility to these anti Israel, antisemitic campus rallies. Whenever they interview a pro Israel guest, they constantly interrupt with hostile questions, while pro Palestinian guests are allowed to drone on & on & on about how evil Israel & the US are. The coverage doesn't even pretend to be fair & balanced, and the hosts don't even attempt to hide their bias.
I guess Hamas' PR machine is to be congratulated. They've successfully managed to make formerly respected news outlets completely forget how all this shit got started.
LuvLoogie
(7,091 posts)And Oslo died with him
PufPuf23
(8,882 posts)Someone needs to fix wikipedia.
Assassination of Yitzhak Rabin
The assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, the fifth prime minister of Israel, took place on 4 November 1995 (12 Marcheshvan 5756 on the Hebrew calendar) at 21:30, at the end of a rally in support of the Oslo Accords at the Kings of Israel Square in Tel Aviv. The assailant was Yigal Amir, an Israeli law student and ultranationalist who radically opposed prime minister Yitzhak Rabin's peace initiative, particularly the signing of the Oslo Accords.
Background
The assassination of Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin came immediately after an anti-violence rally in support of the Oslo peace process.[1]
Before the rally, Rabin was disparaged personally by right-wing conservatives and Likud leaders who perceived the peace process as an attempt to forfeit the occupied territories and a capitulation to Israel's enemies.[2][3]
National religious conservatives and Likud party leaders believed that withdrawing from any "Jewish" land was heresy.[4] The Likud leader and future prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, accused Rabin's government of being "removed from Jewish tradition [...] and Jewish values".[2][3] Right-wing rabbis associated with the settlers' movement prohibited territorial concessions to the Palestinians and forbade soldiers in the Israel Defense Forces from evacuating Jewish settlers under the accords.[5][6] Some rabbis proclaimed din rodef, based on a traditional Jewish law of self-defense, against Rabin personally, arguing that the Oslo Accords would endanger Jewish lives.[5][7]
Rallies organized by Likud and other right-wing groups featured depictions of Rabin in a Nazi SS uniform, or in the crosshairs of a gun.[2][3] Protesters compared the Labor party to the Nazis and Rabin to Adolf Hitler[5] and chanted, "Rabin is a murderer" and "Rabin is a traitor".[8][9] In July 1995, Netanyahu led a mock funeral procession featuring a coffin and hangman's noose at an anti-Rabin rally where protesters chanted, "Death to Rabin".[10][11] The chief of internal security, Carmi Gillon, then alerted Netanyahu of a plot on Rabin's life and asked him to moderate the protests' rhetoric, which Netanyahu declined to do.[8][12] Netanyahu denied any intention to incite violence
more at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Yitzhak_Rabin
Sugarcoated
(7,740 posts)Truth
Ping Tung
(824 posts)Do the soldiers or terrorists understand history and context? Are they fed propaganda other than a version of "My country, right or wrong?" Do they fully understand what "context" is necessary to kill innocent people?
"If killing is natural, why do soldiers have to be trained how to do it?" Joan Baez
chouchou
(665 posts)There's so much slob-job info regarding that war.
Oopsie Daisy
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