Home country: usa
Current location: ak
Member since: Thu Jan 31, 2013, 01:49 PM
Number of posts: 15,077
Home country: usa
Current location: ak
Member since: Thu Jan 31, 2013, 01:49 PM
Number of posts: 15,077
I think this info needs to be repeated. Constantly.
Posted by bravenak | Wed Aug 5, 2015, 09:55 PM (0 replies)
We need laws that say you MUST record every stop. Or go to jail.
We need laws that say you cannot profit from imprisoning people. Or you go to jail.
We need laws that say of a department's stats indicate profiling, the guilty ones go to jail.
We need laws that say you cannot have all white jurys for black people anymore, or all white prosecutors and judges, they have proven they cannot be fair.
We need laws saying that if it is shown that black children are treated unfairly at school, everybody gets fired..
We need fair housing. More laws and better enforcement.
We need to funnel the money spent to lock people up into rehab and revitalizing our communities.
We need new low income housing built.
We need to end the drug war.
If we can't get stuff like that, what's the point.
Posted by bravenak | Wed Aug 5, 2015, 09:41 PM (3 replies)
We have complaints, but none that we will usually share outside of our group. The idea that Hillary respects our feelings towards him and plans to continue his policies, and perhaps improve upon them makes us comfortable.
Black people have been living in a century long great depression. We have NEVER not had those fears that are new and horrible for white people. That is why they think we don't understand their econimic fears. They do not understand us. We were slaves. Now we are the poor and have always been on the bottom. No matter if we are not poor, people still think black=poor. We know that they never seemed to care so urgently about our poverty when it was just us that were suffering. We look at you all in shock. You think you have it bad, we say with our eyes. We are not even allowed to live free, even if we have money. We know that once the financial problems are solved for white people, racism will be backburnered like it always is. White flight happened years ago, the disinvestment in our communities and problems already happened, and white liberals left us lying in shit and jailed and abused and now they tell us that they care. Well, where the hell wre all these people who care so much bout our unemployment all these forty years? Ignoring us until they needed our votes. Doing charity work here and there and patting themselves on the backs for being such selfless white liberals while at the same time judging us, ignoring us, telling us we're stupid, and letting raxism and institutional violence run rampant, blaming the black community and reading Marx and telling themselves that socialism will solve it. Pretending they aren't racist because they don't say 'nigger' while they aviod black people like the plague. Not hiring us, opposing affimative action, then telling us they are colorblind when we know that colorblind=racist as hell.
This is the problem, the disconnect. White people think that white people's problems are EVERYONES problems, and that they are the standard. Our problems are side issues. But they woukd be DAMNED if they let white people be treated like this as the sop while black folks. lived goid lives without 1/3 going to jail or prison. White people would have burned the fucking nation to the ground before they themselves lived in poverty and under institutional racism or black supremacy.
So, we do not trust you. Look at how things have gotten for us while you were able to ignore it since your family is not the ones worried about whether your kids will meet a racist cop and end up dead. We are not willing to just vote for your guy when you do not even understand the magnitude of the problem. Our problems are much more life or death and immediate. We say that and white liberaks say, 'what about climate change though? Don't you care?' No. Not when I won't survive a police stop for a moving violation, no, I don't care about your money if my life is in danger.
Posted by bravenak | Tue Aug 4, 2015, 12:08 AM (1 replies)
Thank you for really thinking it over. I think this had been a much more positive experience than I had expected.
I know I have been bringing this stuff up a lot over the last few weeks, but it is something that really bothers and frustrates me. I keep trying to figure out how to explain what I see, but it's like writing a poem, you know? Sometimes it takes a while to pull the snippets of emotions and feelings together in a rational wah in order get the response you want. The effect you desire.
At first I was so mad after netroots. I could not figure out why people were acting so vicious and, well, racist. I realized that many did NOT know what they looked like. How could they? There were no black people here to tell them besides me, and I knew it would cause me to be hated. But I just had to.
I had hoped they would listen and end it immediately. I felt bad that nobody believed me and that people thought I was just trolling or 'race nagging'. People said such mean things. But we can move forward if we have humility and compassion for others.
I think speaking with black folks outside of DU would be brilliant. Even just reading black publications (not the Black Agenda Report, please no, just trust me) and going through the comments and reading them would help.
The experience thing is a big . I have no idea what to say to people who question his experience. Maybe remind them that he will have skilled advisors?
And yes, the gains missed us. They always do. That is why we don't trust in the economic justice message. We know we will NEVER get our fair share. How can we will so many of us in prison or dead?
Posted by bravenak | Mon Aug 3, 2015, 08:04 AM (0 replies)
It is not the same for you. Most leaders in this nation hve been white. We ONLY have Obama. There is really nothing you can do but bite your tongue hard as hell if yiu want to win. Black people have been doing that with White democratic leaders FOREVER. For once, y'all gotta hush.
You have to let go of your anger about things you thought Obama was going to do but didn't actually do. Look at the shit black folks have been through. We look at you guys crazy wondering how the hell are you madder than we are. We think you guys turned on him very quickly in a way you'd never do to a white liberal, fair or not, that is the perception. The level of anger towards him just feeds the narrative that white progressives are NOT our allies really, and just use us as pawns and turn on us when we step off the plantation. In order to stop feeding into it, you guys have to stfu for once. Otherwise black folks will just remain with the default candidate. Fair or foul, it is a big ass turn off and is KILLING you with black voters. Read what MalcolmX said about white liberals being worse than republicans. We know we are being used. We have aoways known and we are tired of sinking further and falling farther behind while white liberals worry about THEIR paychecks; we worry about our children making it home alive. Sorry, but our issues are much more important to us than the oligarchy. Hell, we see YOU as a part of the system that oppresses us.
Of course black folks run the spectrum politically. But we stick together.
Posted by bravenak | Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:04 PM (2 replies)
I actually appreciate the way you avoid being nasty towards Hillary. I try not to myself and I dislike her.
I usually find your posts reasonable and even if I do not agree, I can understand your policy differences with her and enjoy your positive support for Bernie. Nobody is perfect, but I do not see you as a negative supporter.
Now, I am Ideologically similar to Bernie as far as my politics go, although I find myself putting a bit more emphasis on the social justice aspect, rather than the economical. I see you as an ally in the fight for Black lives matters and appreciate that and hope that everyone can join us in our fight. You are on my side in my fight for justice, and I am on your side in your fight for economic fairness.
I do not hate Bernie or his supporters. I actually prefer Bernie and do not like Hillary. If I say things about what I think is hurting him with black voters, it is not because I want to trash him or you guys, I want you to know what I see and really am trying to help.
I want Bernie's supporters to include things that are important to black voters and place them at the top of the list of urgent business. I truly believe that the group that wins the support of black activists in movements like Black Lives Matters will win the black vote. And similarly with Latinos, the person and supporters that show the most concern, listen to hispanics in our nation and empathizes and places their concerns at the top along with economic and social justice will win their respect and votes. Minority communities are big on respect and appreciate attention paid to the issues that affect our communities specifically. We also want our vote earned and for the candidates to come to us and ask for our votes.
Bernie and his group have to spread goodwill throughout the Obama coalition. They need to steal Hillary voters. I fear that the active dislike for the man that many African Americans respect and love (honestly, we place him at the top of the list of All Time Greatest African Americans, above Martin Luther King Jr and MalcolmX, he to us is the all time greatest African American) is harming Bernie tremendously. We have an emotional connection to him, no amount of logic and policy discussions will change that. We do not like people who do not appreciate him and his accomplishments.
I say these things not to harn; but to assist. When I speak with other African Americans about the policy issues and differences between the candidates, they seem to actually PREFER Bernie's positions. But there is a lack of trust, and we find it difficult to get interested in a new (to us) candidate. We know the Clintons. We know they made terrible decisions. But when supporters beat us up with those facts, it shuts down the conversation and everyone retreats to their previously held positions. The Clintons are our default choice. The Clintons are praising Obama and that brings them enough goodwill to assuage the fears of another Welfare Reform debacle or Mass Incarceration mess. The Clintons are busy speaking on our issues and apologizing for past mistakes. I know that does not make up for the past, but when has America EVER made up for things done to black people? Never. An apology for hurting us is so damn rare that we forgive.
Now, I think we can get through this netroots debacle, but Bernie's supporters HAVE to listen to the members of the African American community and bite their tongues and figure out how to use the information we provide effectively. Life is a learning experience.
I have a few suggestions: in order to steal votes Bernie needs Obma voters. Please let people know that it is very counterproductive to trash Obama in any way really. We are so used to black leaders being trashed and hated and despised that we as a group will tune out any bad mouthing and silently hate the person speaking. It really doesn't matter if it is just about SEVERE disappointment with his policies or seeing him as too far to the right; it turns off potential black voters. Speak instead on how Bernie will defend the gains Obama made and expand upon them. It will be more effective.
Another thing is you all need to know that Black people LIKE the Clintons. Yes, they fucked up. But it seems that we are forgiving them and waiting to hear more about how Hillary will undo some of the policies and ensure that we work on the insititutional racism. Many are willing to give them a chance to fix things. It does not help Bernie AT ALL when folks talk crazy to black folks about liking the Clintons after all the damage they have done. It might help you to see this as a sign that black people can be willing to give multiple chances. This bad time with minority voters can be fixed.
I'd also suggest that his supporters might want to stop saying that economic justice and social justice are the same thing or that one brings the other. And maybe stop calling non Bernie supporters uninformed or implying that they are stupid or Hillary supporters. I get accused of supporting Hillary because I am saying these things to and about Bernie supporters. I understand that I have been a bit unkind by broadbrushing his supporters and I am sorry. I apologize for that and will try to do better. I just do not like my concern dismissed or my community or activists being disrespected or called right wing plants.
There is nothing wrong with being excited for a candidate. Or being an idealist. But it is not a winning strategy on it's own. Votes are needed to win. Bernie has the leftish progressive white liberals on his side and he has their support. He NEEDS more. Compromises will have to be made and tongues will have to be bitten to win the hearts and minds of the rest of the Democratic coalition.
Sorry about the super long post, but I just wanted to get that out there and see if anybody would take what I say seriously and help end this meme with the quickness. I do not like Bernie's supporters having the reputation of being mean, or intelligence snobs or hating black people. The only way to turn the tide is to change course. If you guys could collectively just be nice to black people and listen to us and support us in this fight for our lives and freedom; fight just as hard as you fight FOR Bernie, this problem would be a thing of the past.
Posted by bravenak | Sun Aug 2, 2015, 09:28 AM (6 replies)
I'm forgiving him for the primary, but I don't like it. Still don't like Hillary. If I did I would never even bother offering up suggestions or telling you how you are messing up.
I know about the policy. One of the reasons I hate the Clintons is because I feel like they smiled in our faces and sold us some bullshit and stabbed us in the back. We'd never let them get away with that bullshit again, but they keep apologizing and asking us for suggestions and listening to what we say and incorporating that into the message. They have pretty much been forgivenb(really, the more you guys repeat it the more people just forgive them), but we will be watching them like hawks for missteps. I only have one vote. You need millions of votes like mine. I can only try to tell you what I know.
Black people are forgiving. We forgive slavery, Jim Crow, whatever, we want to move forward and if we held a grudge for every offense this nation would burn. Most are VERY religious. Hence the forgiving. Hillary loves her some church. She will go to a black church and pray her ass off and sing some gospel and reaaly feel that shit. Black folks love people that love jesus. We and hispanics are some of the most religious folks in this nation. I went to church 2 or 3 days a week and did not consider myself a conservative christian. It was normal for black people to spend alot of time at church. Half the sermons are about forgiveness, but that's because we have soooo much to forgive.
I am an atheist. I'd rather not vote for anybody than vote for Hillary. I will sit out the primary possibly rather than vote for her. But I will not trash talk her. And I will attend church on occasion for fun. I don't mind. I go to be with my people.
Can't win black votes unless you understand them and speak with them and empathize. You have to get emotionally involved.
Posted by bravenak | Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:48 AM (1 replies)
That passive aggresiveness is what I mean. Yes we internalize attacks against him from our own allies. And it was much more than criticism. Piece of shit used car salesman? All those recs? Those reccers are the same ones yelling the loudest for team Bernie. Why would black folks want to belong to a group that trashes him so thoroughly and tells us we're stupid (basically, uninformed they call us)? We don't want to belong to that group. The same group hate Holder, Lynch, loves Cornell West who says racist shit about Obama that only a black person can say and they cheer him on and promote his support of Bernie.... They promote him as better than Obama. Alot of us only started voting BECAUSE of Obama and many will follow his lead. Hillary is smart for being quiet and saying nice shit about Obama. The more she promotes Obama the more black votes she gets.
Now. Do not say I did not tell you this. Mark this post because I'm fucking prescient.
Posted by bravenak | Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:36 AM (0 replies)
I say what I mean, I mean what I say, and artifice is not in my nature. I know I give as good as I get, I'm PROUD of that fact. I do not shrink, I find the humor in life, and I always look to the future and find solutions.
Many people have a problem with my bluntness. Too bad. Many had a problem with his. Too bad. He was NOT a VICTIM. He gave as good as he got and then some. I said that because it is the same way I feel about myself. Although unlike him, I have never threatened to beat another member to death, have not been banned for any reason, and do not call our Democratic president a piece of shit anything.
Oh, and I know when someone starts out with 'No offense' they intend to offend me in the worst way possible, on purpose, to try to hurt me.
Posted by bravenak | Thu Jul 30, 2015, 12:45 AM (3 replies)
106. Dear Black Person,
I think as a white man, that my best education about what is going on now comes from W.E.B. DuBois book" Black Reconstruction" coupled with Howard Zinn's " A People]s History of The United States". The detail of Du Bois book is unmatched and clearly points out how racism was a weapon the rich applied with greater vehemence after the civil war creating wage slavery amongst the newly freed slaves and poor whites.
I am sure many Black people are more aware of these works than I am, but I believe truly that racism , and sexism are tools necessary for politicians to keep working people from uniting regardless of color or sex. Du Bois book is so illustrative of how much lies, and claims of white superiority can appeal to the naturally poor egos of southern poor whites trapping them like blacks in needy service to their new rich masters, a collaboration of former slave owners and rich northern industrialists wanting to exploit resources of the south.
Zinn's book while not nearly as outrage provoking ( a good thing I believe in this case), provides a longer term view of how this need to separate the poorer classes have been a constant for protection of control and oligarchy from before the revolution until today. Clearly racism and sexism does not serve the society at large, But they are institutionalized and attempts to rid this country of their most blatant and harmful impacts are shut down by the oligarchy controlled Congress and Supreme Court, who err most repeatedly today on the side of the oligarchy of Big Business.
So we white people who remind Black people of who marched with Martin Luther King are trying tomsasy in shorthand we still see abuse and support change. We cannot feel the black pain but we can see it, and we can resist criticizing black voices across a spectrum even as we believe that desire for greater and greater economic inequality in order to feed the greed of the already wealthy and powerful is the basic culprit. We align with black in your local struggles to call attention to police brutality and will help bandaid a system to prevent as much death and destruction as possible. I recognize it is hard to think ahead when you are up to your ass in aligators, butI believe in poisoning the pond is more effective than fighting the alligators one by one.
Posted by bravenak | Wed Jul 29, 2015, 07:01 PM (2 replies)