I'm wrong to feel this way, and I know it

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CatWoman (12754 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:18 PM (ET) I'm wrong to feel this way, and I know it But I can't help myself -- no way do I want to see the United States succeed in this "war" with Iraq. This may sound traitorous to some. And I'll understand your flames. But I am enraged at the thought of attacking a country for no reason at all. Well there is a reason. Maybe that's why I feel so strongly about this. The reason(s): greed -- for both oil and power. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Restore Gore in 2004 Proud Member of the Grassy Knoll Society -- Atlanta Chapter No one can make you feel inferior without your permission -- Eleanor Roosevelt   Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Table of Contents

Subject     Author     Message Date     ID    I am in full agreement with you Voltaire Jan-10-03 1  Immoral War Marymarg Jan-10-03 2  Well we havent attacked anything yet Pltcl_jnky Jan-10-03 3    you are fooling yourself Skittles 01/10/2003 10        hope Pltcl_jnky 01/10/2003 47        Bush has to find a way out of this mess... zanana 01/11/2003 95    that would be a pretty expensive "message" to send... alg0912 01/11/2003 96  the Bush cabal is an enemy of the United States of America arcane1 Jan-10-03 4  I look at it differently -- there is no such thing as "success" in war... IrateCitizen Jan-10-03 5    Hear Hear!!! perkypat23 01/10/2003 37    Excellent, IC ProfessorGAC 01/10/2003 56    Yes Rex 01/10/2003 86  Why psyntist Jan-10-03 6    Thank you, Psyntist CatWoman 01/10/2003 12        Hi psyntist!! newyawker99 01/10/2003 88        Your welcome psyntist 01/11/2003 99  I agree with you sangha Jan-10-03 7    Laughing my ass off at the visual this provides... IrateCitizen 01/10/2003 20  Heck, my husband is military and I feel that way Solly Mack Jan-10-03 8  Right on, CatWoman! dbt Jan-10-03 9  well, we will EASILY defeat Iraq, but how will we defeat the rest of t... bpilgrim Jan-10-03 11  I think the Bushies realize their mistake from Gulf War I. GOPisEvil Jan-10-03 13  It's wrong because DS1 Jan-10-03 14    do you mean the iraqi civilians... bpilgrim 01/10/2003 15        regular people just like you and me DS1 01/10/2003 73    The wrong people MSchreader 01/10/2003 17  I really can't blame you Cujo Jan-10-03 16  Aren't you ex-military? Clete Jan-10-03 18    Yes, I am ex military CatWoman 01/10/2003 22        well seekthetruth 01/10/2003 64  go read the Mark Morford thread here trof Jan-10-03 19  I'm trying to think of it this way ulysses Jan-10-03 21    Hey Uly CatWoman 01/10/2003 31        ROFL ulysses 01/10/2003 51    Originally posted by ulysses rocknation 01/10/2003 32    Correction JimWar 01/10/2003 78        ? ulysses 01/10/2003 80    90% of the soldiers want to be used by Bush* Bandit 01/10/2003 85        most of them ulysses 01/11/2003 93  I understand, but... a_random_joel Jan-10-03 23    Supporting our troops CWebster 01/10/2003 33        You misread me a_random_joel 01/10/2003 48            True CWebster 01/10/2003 53  You are not wrong to feel this way MSchreader Jan-10-03 24  No Flames Here... perkypat23 Jan-10-03 25  If loving you is wrong, I don't wanna be right. DrWeird Jan-10-03 26    Hey!! Dr. W!!!! CatWoman 01/10/2003 28  Aggressive war is immoral, period Lydia Leftcoast Jan-10-03 27    Drop that weak "They hate us because we're free" BS Mr_SmokesTooMuch 01/10/2003 35    That's why they hate us? DrWeird 01/10/2003 36    You CANNOT be serious Voltaire 01/10/2003 39  I understand, Catwoman, and I'll go you one further... GainesT1958 Jan-10-03 30  wrong? hell no! nostamj Jan-10-03 34    LoL! That was great! Blue_Chill 01/10/2003 40    That's Not What A Thesaurus Is, nostamj! ProfessorGAC 01/10/2003 60        hmm... gotta check that encyclopedia again n/t nostamj 01/10/2003 71  RED FLAG!!! Blue_Chill Jan-10-03 38    As if the world doesn't feel CWebster 01/10/2003 42        hehe Blue_Chill 01/10/2003 46    Not good enough Voltaire 01/10/2003 45        I understand what you're saying but... Blue_Chill 01/10/2003 49            A loss for us is only worse... DrWeird 01/10/2003 52                um....no Blue_Chill 01/10/2003 58  This war is wrong, so how can it be wrong to feel this way. KoKo01 Jan-10-03 41  Wrong Schmong...your mixed feelings on Shrub's war ElGallo Jan-10-03 43  I Agree, C.W. MamaBear Jan-10-03 54    Oh boy, that hit the nail on the head. Eloriel 01/10/2003 79  "Absolute power corrupts absolutely" and we absolutely have indepat Jan-10-03 55  Unpatriotic ?? welshTerrier2 Jan-10-03 57  Why isn't anyone worried about Korea? Sophia4Truth Jan-10-03 59    I posted a thread on it. Clete 01/10/2003 63  These are the feelings of a human being... txprog Jan-10-03 61  I agree!! Although I don't a single American to get so much as a... ElementaryPenguin Jan-10-03 65    What He Said !!! --- Right On EP, Right On Cat!!! WillyT 01/10/2003 68  I dont want any Americans to die for a "success" or "failure"... Dr Fate Jan-10-03 66    If driving SUVs means killing babies... DrWeird 01/10/2003 69        Cat, I totally understand how you feel... Miss_Bevey 01/10/2003 72    And because we use/need oil CatWoman 01/10/2003 70        Cat, I'll go one step farther... Miss_Bevey 01/10/2003 74            But wait, there's more... Miss_Bevey 01/10/2003 75    This has nothing to do with 'fighting to live' Oaf Of Office 01/10/2003 77  Me too, Cat Eloriel Jan-10-03 76    "I'm sick of all the lies." Karenina 01/10/2003 82  CatWoman.... Claire_beth Jan-10-03 81  War Is A Racket bpilgrim Jan-10-03 83  So what do you want to happen? UnapologeticLiberal Jan-10-03 84    Please do enlighten us Karenina 01/10/2003 90  No, you're not wrong knight_of_the_star Jan-10-03 87  If the US attacks Iraq I want 9215 Jan-10-03 89  CatWoman: Need I remind you that if the US does not succeed..... LiberalLibra Jan-10-03 91    That's going to happen MSchreader 01/11/2003 92  Bombs raining down on inocents ! NicRic Jan-11-03 94  best scenario agincourt Jan-11-03 97  You're RIGHT ON to feel this way, CatWoman, DemEx_pat Jan-11-03 98

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Messages in this topic

Voltaire (412 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:20 PM (ET) 1. I am in full agreement with you I hate to think what it may entail, but I feel that any quick victory will make matters worse for all of us. It will simply add to the hubris we are forced to witness each and every day. It takes a special kind of stupid to be a reichwinger America's Calling....Harry Truman! Harry will you please come home? A man who stands for nothing will fall for anything. Malcom X THINK! THINK! IT AIN'T ILLEGAL YET!   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Marymarg (218 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:22 PM (ET) 2. Immoral War I agree, Catwoman. How can we "win" an immoral, if not illegal war? Looks like a lose/lose to me.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Pltcl_jnky (109 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:22 PM (ET) 3. Well we havent attacked anything yet right now it is an intimidation thing sending all the troops there....but if we go in without the inspectors finding anything concrete then it will indeed be a dark day....i wouldnt want to go as far as to say i would hope we would fail as that would mean our dead soldiers who only do what they are ordered to do....but it would be a huge black mark on our record. if the UN finds something and they agree then fine and dandy. Or if we build up to "scare" hussein but never go in I am okay with that....but a preemptive first shot is just not right...   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Skittles (8023 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:25 PM (ET) Reply to post #3 10. you are fooling yourself if you think Dubya's intentions are anything but WAR WAR WAR. His is one disgusting SOB.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Pltcl_jnky (109 posts) Jan-10-03, 03:03 PM (ET) Reply to post #10 47. hope pure and simple hope that we do not attack without some sort of proof or violation or massive wrong doing   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

zanana (584 posts) Jan-11-03, 10:21 AM (ET) Reply to post #10 95. Bush has to find a way out of this mess... without losing face. I don't believe for one minute that Tony Blair decided, on his own, to try to push the war back until autumn. I think this is a Bush-Cheney decision; that will give them more time to back out of a war without admitting to any mistakes. The idea of war with Iraq served Bush and his fellow Republicans well last summer, before the elections. Now that they know they've created a monster, they have to do some fancy footwork to try to reverse the political damage.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

alg0912 (1797 posts) Jan-11-03, 10:29 AM (ET) Reply to post #3 96. that would be a pretty expensive "message" to send... The mobilization of thousands of troops & associated equipment costs millions and millions of $$$. Wouldn't it be cheaper to send Saddam a Candygram saying, "Your Ass is Grass"? We are in danger...   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

arcane1 (1614 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:23 PM (ET) 4. the Bush cabal is an enemy of the United States of America there is no shame at all in wanting to see them fail. By feeling this way, you are showing that you are a true patriot, of that word still has any meaning at all... Sheep are running scared tonight The cows are coming home They cling together terrified Afraid to be alone They don't know who to run to They don't know where to go Unless you tell them what to think They don't know what they know Repeating the commercial Something they have heard From someone, something, somewhere else Somebody good with words They're looking for someone They're looking for Christ They're looking for some human sacrifice Concrete Blonde "Jonestown" dedicated to freeps and repubs all over this great land Proud member of the Grassy Knoll Society, Bay Area chapter   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

IrateCitizen (3316 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:23 PM (ET) 5. I look at it differently -- there is no such thing as "success" in war... only failure. There is no "winning" side -- only death and destruction. Whether more of that falls on our "side" or theirs is of no consequence. The very fact that it exists is proof enough of the utter failure of war. If we attack and "win", all lose. If we attack and "lose", all lose. If we don't do anything, and Iraq attacks, all lose. The only way that we really "win" is if nobody attacks and we begin to truly work to achieve peace among men (and women). Of course, we all know what the real chances of that occuring are.... Chris Harrison Mt. Kisco, NY JOIN THE FIGHT FOR CLEAN ELECTIONS!!! http://www.citizenactionny.org/election.html http://www.commoncause.org "Do not worry over the charge of treason to your masters, but be concerned about the treason that involves yourselves. Be true to yourself and you cannot be a traitor to any good cause on earth." - Eugene Victor Debs, 6/16/1918 speech at Canton, OH "Democracy is not a state in which people act like sheep." - M.K. Gandhi "You have President Bush out there saying that he wants transparency and accountability on behalf of Fortune 500 CEOs. I would like some transparency and accountability on behalf of, you know, President Bush and his workers, who were the individuals that failed my husband and the 3,000 other people that day." - Kristen Breitweiser, Sept. 11 widow   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

perkypat23 (158 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:55 PM (ET) Reply to post #5 37. Hear Hear!!! Good powerful words...Thanx Irate! "Iraqis, I think, feel that if we drove smaller cars, maybe we wouldn’t have to kill them for their oil.” -- Bill Maher   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

ProfessorGAC (1792 posts) Jan-10-03, 03:21 PM (ET) Reply to post #5 56. Excellent, IC The Professor   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Rex (1574 posts) Jan-10-03, 07:44 PM (ET) Reply to post #5 86. Yes LAST EDITED ON Jan-10-03 AT 07:45 PM (ET) war means failure! Diplomacy is the only way. Two (or more) nations siting down and addressing their grievances towards one another. Then finding someway to come to a compromise that doesn't involve bloodshed. It can be done, we just have to be willing to rise above our more barbaric instincts. "10 cats, 4 dogs - one more and I'll need to build an Ark" http://punkinhaid.tripod.com/Personal/pets.html   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

psyntist (17 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:23 PM (ET) 6. Why Why do you feel you are wrong to feel this way? It makes no sense to feel wrong about your worries about the potential outcome of this war. Afterall, there has been little to no talk about what happens the "day after" I have a firm belief that the US will win the ground war but will we succeed in anything else is a matter of much debate and very doubtful.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

CatWoman (12754 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:25 PM (ET) Reply to post #6 12. Thank you, Psyntist and welcome to DU P.S. Love your handle Restore Gore in 2004 Proud Member of the Grassy Knoll Society -- Atlanta Chapter No one can make you feel inferior without your permission -- Eleanor Roosevelt   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

newyawker99 (26262 posts) Jan-10-03, 08:07 PM (ET) Reply to post #12 88. Hi psyntist!! Welcome to DU!! Have you been to the lounge? Come and join the fun!! This is not the life I ordered. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke "Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my friend." Albert Camus   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

psyntist (17 posts) Jan-11-03, 04:18 PM (ET) Reply to post #12 99. Your welcome and thanks for the compliment and the hardy welcoming. "If I can not dance I do not want to take part in your revolution" - Emma Goldman   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

sangha (6040 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:23 PM (ET) 7. I agree with you but I would like to point out that hoping this venture fails is not the same as saying that I hope Americans die in this invasion. I'm hoping they run out of gas, or maybe they forget to turn the stove off, and have to return home. In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happened, you can bet it was planned that way. Franklin Delano Roosevelt   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

IrateCitizen (3316 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:30 PM (ET) Reply to post #7 20. Laughing my ass off at the visual this provides... I'm hoping they run out of gas, or maybe they forget to turn the stove off, and have to return home. GENERAL TO COLONEL: Did you remember to turn the stove off before we left? How 'bout the iron? COLONEL: I think so, but I'm not sure... GENERAL: Well shit, son -- we can't go on "I'm not sure" and then go home to find out the damned house has burned down! Turn this army back around so we can go back and make sure! Chris Harrison Mt. Kisco, NY JOIN THE FIGHT FOR CLEAN ELECTIONS!!! http://www.citizenactionny.org/election.html http://www.commoncause.org "Do not worry over the charge of treason to your masters, but be concerned about the treason that involves yourselves. Be true to yourself and you cannot be a traitor to any good cause on earth." - Eugene Victor Debs, 6/16/1918 speech at Canton, OH "Democracy is not a state in which people act like sheep." - M.K. Gandhi "You have President Bush out there saying that he wants transparency and accountability on behalf of Fortune 500 CEOs. I would like some transparency and accountability on behalf of, you know, President Bush and his workers, who were the individuals that failed my husband and the 3,000 other people that day." - Kristen Breitweiser, Sept. 11 widow   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Solly Mack (1815 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:24 PM (ET) 8. Heck, my husband is military and I feel that way We just can't keep raiding countries for their resources and call it "national security" We're not spreading democracy...we're spreading American rule. I don't want anyone..American or Iraqi...or anyone else...to die for Bush's "vision" of the world. "Tyranny is Tyranny let it come from whom it may." "If you accept corruption as politics as usual, you're already on your knees" "Find out just what the people will submit to and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." Frederick Douglass "For your own good" is a persuasive argument that will eventually make a man agree to his own destruction. Janet Frame   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

dbt (1392 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:24 PM (ET) 9. Right on, CatWoman! No matter how the regime spins it, an attack on Iraq makes us an agressor nation. That country is no threat to anybody, much less the US. And if Saddam really were such a threat, all Poppy had to do was let Schwarzkopf and the boys continue to Baghdad--instead of calling them off! dbt   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

bpilgrim (7629 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:25 PM (ET) 11. well, we will EASILY defeat Iraq, but how will we defeat the rest of the world LAST EDITED ON Jan-10-03 AT 02:37 PM (ET) well, we will EASILY defeat Iraq, but how will we defeat the rest of the world these folks are stiring the pot DELIBERATELY, as if they want a world in constant TERROR! well i say GIVE ME LIBERTY or GIVE ME DEATH!!! I feel your pain peace -- "The only true wisdom consists in knowing that you know nothing" Socrates Send an email blast to the media today! http://globalfreepress.com/media_blast.pl also check out a REAL free press... http://globalfreepress.com   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

GOPisEvil (6964 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:26 PM (ET) 13. I think the Bushies realize their mistake from Gulf War I. Namely, it ended too far away from the election to help ol' Poppy out. This time around, they'll time the war's end to more closely coincide with the election, so the post-war hard-on won't have time to go down... Just my theory!   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

DS1 (5972 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:27 PM (ET) 14. It's wrong because the wrong people will suffer the burden of this failure. something something something something - last updated 780315   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

bpilgrim (7629 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:28 PM (ET) Reply to post #14 15. do you mean the iraqi civilians... OUR troops or BOTH? peace -- "The only true wisdom consists in knowing that you know nothing" Socrates Send an email blast to the media today! http://globalfreepress.com/media_blast.pl also check out a REAL free press... http://globalfreepress.com   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

DS1 (5972 posts) Jan-10-03, 03:50 PM (ET) Reply to post #15 73. regular people just like you and me Troops, civilians, anyone making under 10,000,000 US per year. The people behind all this crap will always be set for life. something something something something - last updated 780315   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MSchreader (1528 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:30 PM (ET) Reply to post #14 17. The wrong people Will suffer the burden of "success" as well. No matter how you cut it, and no matter whether it is a victory or defeat, young kids from the working class -- American and Iraqi -- will die so Bush and his Big Capital paymasters can have their hands on the oil spigot. Martin -- The battle for democracy begins with us! -- http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=10269&forum=DCForumID60 You cannot serve two masters -- http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=16570&forum=DCForumID60 "Communism is the riddle of history solved, and it knows itself to be this solution." -- Karl Marx, 1844 "There is being created a growing revolutionary force in American life. The capitalists hold in their hands a mighty power. But within the capitalist order there are generated those forces which weaken and disintegrate that power in the form of the continuous class conflict which capitalism engenders. What is needed is the organization which can combine for the struggle against the capitalists all the forces of opposition which it creates." -- C.E. Ruthenberg, 1924 "I have said that a party is either a capitalist party or it is a labor party. I deny that any party can by any possible means serve both these classes with the same fidelity. It is absolutely impossible. If a party serves the capitalist exploiter it is at the expense of his exploited victim, and if a party serves the exploited worker it is at the expense of his economic master." -- Eugene V. Debs, 1925   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Cujo (119 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:29 PM (ET) 16. I really can't blame you The inspectors have yet to find any evidence of WMDs and Bush still says we may have to attack them. It is obvious this administration cares nothing for the American people and unfortunatley a bloody war may be what it takes to make people wake up and see this   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Clete (1937 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:30 PM (ET) 18. Aren't you ex-military? You who have been in the military should know more than anyone. I have had so many bad feelings about this because of the one- track minds running the show. Sure we can go conquer Iraq, but no one is talking about the other wild card situations to be factored in and there are many of them. Do these jerks really think that when the smoke clears all will be well and they will have obtained their objectives? Do they know that they will be protected from the fall out? I know they don't care if the rest of the nation is protected. This could really be a very bloody holocaust. I love my country...but I fear my government.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

CatWoman (12754 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:35 PM (ET) Reply to post #18 22. Yes, I am ex military And I think that also is a reason why I feel so strongly about this. The military has no say -- soldiers must follow orders, regardless of how they feel about the morality (or lack of) of those orders. Restore Gore in 2004 Proud Member of the Grassy Knoll Society -- Atlanta Chapter No one can make you feel inferior without your permission -- Eleanor Roosevelt   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

seekthetruth (847 posts) Jan-10-03, 03:32 PM (ET) Reply to post #22 64. well being that you're ex-military, what about those young men and women who are over there now? you don't want the u.s. to win this, but if we don't, what about my son, nephew, etc. that WILL be over there?   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

trof (2879 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:30 PM (ET) 19. go read the Mark Morford thread here and you'll see you are in good company. "You take the High road, and I'll take the Low. That way there'll be an adequate amount of real estate between us." -The Wisdom of Trof (his own self) "Soon you begin to realize that 'I don't want to' is the world's greatest reason." -Mason Williams, "The Mason Williams Reading Matter" "Alone, Unarmed, and Unafraid" we killum with fillum   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

ulysses (5354 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:35 PM (ET) 21. I'm trying to think of it this way This isn't America's war. It's Bush's war. Loyalty to the government always; loyalty to the government when it deserves it. --attributed to Mark Twain What sucks is that the soldiers take the hit - win or lose really, but especially lose. I have no beef with them - they're being used in a war of Republican greed. One can support the troops without supporting the mission they're being sent to do. You know that.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

CatWoman (12754 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:47 PM (ET) Reply to post #21 31. Hey Uly IMPEACH BUSH Restore Gore in 2004 Proud Member of the Grassy Knoll Society -- Atlanta Chapter No one can make you feel inferior without your permission -- Eleanor Roosevelt   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

ulysses (5354 posts) Jan-10-03, 03:05 PM (ET) Reply to post #31 51. ROFL Here's our boy.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

rocknation (2465 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:48 PM (ET) Reply to post #21 32. Originally posted by ulysses This isn't America's war. It's Bush's war. Somebody around here coined the term Dubya Dubya III--I think that says it all. rocknation   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

JimWar (32 posts) Jan-10-03, 04:21 PM (ET) Reply to post #21 78. Correction "The spirit of liberty is the spirit which is not too sure that it is right" Justice Learned Hand   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

ulysses (5354 posts) Jan-10-03, 04:28 PM (ET) Reply to post #78 80. ?   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Bandit (3282 posts) Jan-10-03, 07:37 PM (ET) Reply to post #21 85. 90% of the soldiers want to be used by Bush* They are in their glory at least until the bullets start flying and a few of their friends take some hits. They like the thought of the Glory of war and the thrill of victory. I don't have much sorrow for them I'm afraid. They made their bed now they must lie in it. "Republicans say we give them hell. We just give them the truth and they think it's hell" H.S. Truman Vision without Action is a Daydream Action without Vision is a Nightmare Japanese Proverb   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

ulysses (5354 posts) Jan-11-03, 08:20 AM (ET) Reply to post #85 93. most of them are *boys*. Well-armed boys, but boys nonetheless, and boys are blustery and believe in the glory of war until they learn better. No, the blood of this is on the hands of the gray old men whose idea it all is.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

a_random_joel (337 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:36 PM (ET) 23. I understand, but... LAST EDITED ON Jan-10-03 AT 02:43 PM (ET) There is no question that this war is wrong. Unfortunately, it is not the soldiers' fault that their leaders are inept. If we "lose" this war, sure - shrub might get thrown out. But at what cost in both our boys, and Iraqi civillian lives? Remember, in a losing effort, I am sure these idiots would unleash the worst our arsenal has to offer, a la Cambodia. There are no winners in war, but if we do end up going, we cannot make the mistake that was made with Nam. We can protest the war, but we must respect the guys doing the fighting. Remember, our military is primarily made up of poor and minority volunteers. Also, the following possibilities exist if we start "losing: 1. Reinstatement of draft 2. Drawn out bloody slugfest - could take years to disentangle from 3. More terrorist attacks aganst us, by Iraq and their sympathizers. With so many troops over there, who's gonna defend us here? 4. North Korea taking advantage of the distraction? 5. China, already salivating over Taiwan 6. Israel drawn in, drawing other Arab states against us 7. India - Pakistan? 8. Not to mention the economic impacts - worldwide The potential for WWIII - literally - is very real. And I am no Armageddon theorist. This is a very dangerous situation. The best we can hope for, if we do go, is a quick win. Remember, that's what Poppy accomplished, and he still got booted. Keep hope alive.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

CWebster (521 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:51 PM (ET) Reply to post #23 33. Supporting our troops Became the pc pr after some stories of Nam vets were accused as "Baby killers" and other taunts, but who really let these Vets down was the government who failed on promises - just like they are doing with the Gulf War vets. Just like they will do with these vets. What damn sense does it make to "Support our troops" when they march off to a slaughter but when they return they are ignored? And, face it, war does terrible things to men, they often do become "baby killers" and rape women and burn down villages. That is what war is, it is the very nature of war. So there has to be some distinction between recognizing the Vet, often a poor or working class boy seeking opportunity through GI bill promises--who is victimized, as opposed to the "support our troops" sentiments that represent nationalistic pride in the glory of battle that is barbarism.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

a_random_joel (337 posts) Jan-10-03, 03:03 PM (ET) Reply to post #33 48. You misread me I totally see your point, and soldiers who commit such acts, even in a war, should be punished. That still does not take away from the fact that most of our recruits are poor and minority volunteers with not many options. Again, it is not their fault that the comander-and-thief is a brainless, warmongering schmuck.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

CWebster (521 posts) Jan-10-03, 03:16 PM (ET) Reply to post #48 53. True But I remember Viet Nam, and there were young men and families of boys who left the country, who couldn't get CO status. In fact, I know of one man who went to prison instead of Nam and was the victim of homosexual rape, but now these men would be condemned as cowards who didn't do their duty. And I have a cousin who flew heliocopters in Nam and he was never the same when he returned - and has little to do with his family. And there was a lottery of who would go, based on birthdates---they did it right on TV...3 times I remember seeing it, once my birthday came up in the first three dates called... There is a difference between those who advocate war and get out of serving and those who refuse to serve because they believe that war is immoral and they refuse to be the slaves of the corporate class business interests billed as American interests or American security. War does terrible things to men, so in opposing chickenhawks the boast should not be, "look at me, see the medals on my wall, I killed a man for my country".   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MSchreader (1528 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:39 PM (ET) 24. You are not wrong to feel this way This is a dirty little war for profit -- nothing more, nothing less. There isn't even a "righteous cause" to sugar-coat it (e.g., the Second World War). We all know that the victory of American imperialism in Iraq means more swaggering arrogance from Bush & Co. And that arrogance will be directed as much against us (working people in the "homeland") as it is against the Iraqis -- perhaps more, over the longer term. The only difference is that the army Bush will use against us, our unions and our livelihood will not be solely BDU-clad. It will be multi-hued (police blue, strikebreaker gray, politician pin-stripe, etc.). Eugene Debs was right when he said that "the defeat of 'one's own' government is the lesser evil." Trust your instincts, Midori. Martin -- The battle for democracy begins with us! -- http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=10269&forum=DCForumID60 You cannot serve two masters -- http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=16570&forum=DCForumID60 "Communism is the riddle of history solved, and it knows itself to be this solution." -- Karl Marx, 1844 "There is being created a growing revolutionary force in American life. The capitalists hold in their hands a mighty power. But within the capitalist order there are generated those forces which weaken and disintegrate that power in the form of the continuous class conflict which capitalism engenders. What is needed is the organization which can combine for the struggle against the capitalists all the forces of opposition which it creates." -- C.E. Ruthenberg, 1924 "I have said that a party is either a capitalist party or it is a labor party. I deny that any party can by any possible means serve both these classes with the same fidelity. It is absolutely impossible. If a party serves the capitalist exploiter it is at the expense of his exploited victim, and if a party serves the exploited worker it is at the expense of his economic master." -- Eugene V. Debs, 1925   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

perkypat23 (158 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:40 PM (ET) 25. No Flames Here... I've been feeling the same way myself...one day I hear that the inspectors find nothing...the next day, we are sending Marines by the thousands, and cancelling any marines leaving the service for the next 12 months... You know, maybe I wouldn't be so pissed if these freaking Chickenhawks had ever gone to war themselves, but they are the "Fortunate Sons" of John Fogerty's (and now sadly Wrangler's) song (a side note--the best part of the Millenium celebration was watching Fogerty sing this on the Capital steps while a bunch of pissed off senators glared at him)... The administration are sending our children to die to enrich their own pockets...can they truly get any lower??? I guess I've never felt that it's worth getting ahead by screwing over my fellow man...obviously, this country is being run by people who do not feel this way... I feel the same way, but I'm so worried and sad about our own idealistic young people who will be fighting this war, not knowing that they are tools of a corrupt, oil & money swilling administration, and the many, many innocent Iraqis whose stories we will never hear, from a media that covered up the first Gulf War, and can't wait to get the government sound bytes to cover up this one also... Rant over pp23 "Iraqis, I think, feel that if we drove smaller cars, maybe we wouldn’t have to kill them for their oil.” -- Bill Maher   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

DrWeird (369 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:40 PM (ET) 26. If loving you is wrong, I don't wanna be right. Hey, if a bunch of gang-bangers decide to go over to the east-side on a drive-by for no reason, this evil-DUers not going to shed a tear if they don't come back. MY HAIR DRYER!   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

CatWoman (12754 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:42 PM (ET) Reply to post #26 28. Hey!! Dr. W!!!! Happy New Year Restore Gore in 2004 Proud Member of the Grassy Knoll Society -- Atlanta Chapter No one can make you feel inferior without your permission -- Eleanor Roosevelt   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Lydia Leftcoast (5373 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:41 PM (ET) 27. Aggressive war is immoral, period I wish I could find the reference, but over two thousand years ago, one of the Chinese philsophers pointed out that someone who attacked his neighbor's house and killed his neighbor in order to take over his possessions would be considered a thief and murderer. Why, he asked, do we condone this kind of behavior when nations do it to each other? What if FDR had been afraid of alienating the moderates?   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (3666 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:54 PM (ET) Reply to post #29 35. Drop that weak "They hate us because we're free" BS We arent free here in the US and they wont have to hate us much longer as our freedoms get finished off day after day. The real reason they hate us is becasue WE STICK OUR NOSES INTO THEIR BUSINESS. We have been doing it for decades. Just like WE feel we have the right to live free and how we want IN OUR OWN COUNTRY, they do as well. No one died and made the USA Ruler of the World to my knowledge.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

DrWeird (369 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:54 PM (ET) Reply to post #29 36. That's why they hate us? Gee, I thought it was because we bomb there weddings so a few americans can get rich off of their oil. MY HAIR DRYER!   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Voltaire (412 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:58 PM (ET) Reply to post #29 39. You CANNOT be serious Right? It takes a special kind of stupid to be a reichwinger America's Calling....Harry Truman! Harry will you please come home? A man who stands for nothing will fall for anything. Malcom X THINK! THINK! IT AIN'T ILLEGAL YET!   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

GainesT1958 (43 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:46 PM (ET) 30. I understand, Catwoman, and I'll go you one further... I don't want to see us participate in a war in Iraq TO BEGIN WITH! (And I KNOW you agree with that one!). It makes no sense (unless of course you're into oil trading on the COMDEX); it's the WRONG target (correction: with N. Korea's new-found beligerence, make that "wrong targets"!), and the job we started out with on the afternoon of Sept. 11, 2001, when Dub stood in the midst of the ruins of the WTC and swore to the firemen and rescue workers that "the people who knocked these buildings down are going to hear you", is nowhere NEART finished. Some, of course, would say that Dub does not know how, or worse, has no real interest in, finishing it yet. While NO ONE obviously wants Saddam to remain in power, killing anyone who looks at him wrong at will, no one in their right mind wants a unilatteral, first-strike, unprovoked war fought to gain control of a nation's oil supply. One in which it's becoming more clear by the day that the U.S. will have virtually NO allied support in fighting. A war in which American citizens will not only both do the dying and have to live with the death of loved ones, but will have to foot the ENTIRE bill for as taxpayers, unlike Desert Storm, where Saudi Arabia and Kuwait payed for their protection and liberation, respectively. Funny how Repubs USED to say they thought us Dems were always "soft on Communism". Now, they squirm around getting tough with Kim Jong Il when his nuke warheads threaten S. Korea, Japan, and yes, Alaska and Hawaii. And they even talk about withdrawal of our troops from the Korean DMZ--just when Kim puts thousand more of HIS troops there, ready to fight. Can't they suddenly find that Kim has secret oil platforms offshore in the Yellow Sea, or something!?! Guess we shouldn't be surprised, though--didn't repubs once say they were the party of "fiscal responsibility"--and of course THEY"VE been the folks who've given us the biggest Federal DEFICITS of the last 20 years. But I understand your sentiments, and, like you, hope to God that we don't have to continue down this treacherous path in the FIRST place!   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

nostamj (3139 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:52 PM (ET) 34. wrong? hell no! the right is wrong. the left is right. smack me with a thesaurus (book eating species of dinosaur?) it IS friday, isn't it??????????????? DISSENT is STILL ESSENTIAL welcome to Bushzakhistan... a subsidiary of the BFEE   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Blue_Chill (422 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:59 PM (ET) Reply to post #34 40. LoL! That was great! thesaurus (book eating species of dinosaur?) One word....Classic!   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

ProfessorGAC (1792 posts) Jan-10-03, 03:27 PM (ET) Reply to post #34 60. That's Not What A Thesaurus Is, nostamj! They didn't eat books! A thesaurus was a dinosaur with a very large vocabulary. The Professor   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

nostamj (3139 posts) Jan-10-03, 03:43 PM (ET) Reply to post #60 71. hmm... gotta check that encyclopedia again n/t DISSENT is STILL ESSENTIAL welcome to Bushzakhistan... a subsidiary of the BFEE   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Blue_Chill (422 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:58 PM (ET) 38. RED FLAG!!! no way do I want to see the United States succeed in this "war" with Iraq. Do you mean if the US were to attack Iraq you would like to see us lose? I must disagree since I know that for the US to "lose" it will take years and the death toll would be much higher then with a quick victory. I am against this war but I am also against Saddam. Thus if we must do this great injustice, I would at least hope that we could leave the poeple of Iraq with one less crazied bastard. I will be at the Anti-War protest coming up hoping to make a difference.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

CWebster (521 posts) Jan-10-03, 03:00 PM (ET) Reply to post #38 42. As if the world doesn't feel that we have one of our own....crazied bastard.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Blue_Chill (422 posts) Jan-10-03, 03:03 PM (ET) Reply to post #42 46. hehe so true, but still I don't want Vietnam II.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Voltaire (412 posts) Jan-10-03, 03:02 PM (ET) Reply to post #38 45. Not good enough A victory for Bush is like feeding the Beast and the Beast is hungry tonight! You think they are going to stop right after they get rid of Saddam??? Not bloody likely. I do not want any innocents of any persuasion to die. But I do NOT want a Bush victory. It will simply be a stop on the way to total war for that idiot if he scores a quick one in Iraq. It takes a special kind of stupid to be a reichwinger America's Calling....Harry Truman! Harry will you please come home? A man who stands for nothing will fall for anything. Malcom X THINK! THINK! IT AIN'T ILLEGAL YET!   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Blue_Chill (422 posts) Jan-10-03, 03:04 PM (ET) Reply to post #45 49. I understand what you're saying but... So many more die in a loss. Life counts more then anything else. Go down to the Vietnam Memorial and see what a loss brings. Also note the names of those we killed are not there. Lets avoid another ghastly memorial.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

DrWeird (369 posts) Jan-10-03, 03:13 PM (ET) Reply to post #49 52. A loss for us is only worse... If you value the lives of american volunteer soldiers over the lives of volunteer and conscripted iraqi soldiers, and men, women, and children civilians. Hundreds of thousands of good people died in that last "sterile" war we had in Iraq. Just because they didn't have the luxury of finding the right country to be born in. MY HAIR DRYER!   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Blue_Chill (422 posts) Jan-10-03, 03:22 PM (ET) Reply to post #52 58. um....no A loss for us would mean more US soldiers AND Iraqi soldiers died then otherwise would. did you catch the end? I wrote more US soldiers AND Iraqi soldiers died then otherwise would. it takes years for the US to admit defeat. Thus a war of that length would claim far more lives then a quick victory.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

KoKo01 (6476 posts) Jan-10-03, 02:59 PM (ET) 41. This war is wrong, so how can it be wrong to feel this way. It's awful. And even worse to me than our getting into Viet Nam because that we dripped our way into that situation until it finally got out of hand. This is a "Declaration." We still have a choice.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

ElGallo (736 posts) Jan-10-03, 03:01 PM (ET) 43. Wrong Schmong...your mixed feelings on Shrub's war are perfectly sane and reasonable. The problem is that in today's America those holding such views are made to feel "conflicted." I harbor stifled feelings very similar to yours...I'm going to think now about un-stifling them. Thanks for your post.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MamaBear (601 posts) Jan-10-03, 03:19 PM (ET) 54. I Agree, C.W. And also I.C. -- nothing good ever comes of war. And in the end, nobody wins. Nobody's safer; but SOMEBODY is always RICHER. Won't humankind ever grow up? Proud Member of the Grassy Knoll Society, NYC Chapter   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Eloriel (4651 posts) Jan-10-03, 04:24 PM (ET) Reply to post #54 79. Oh boy, that hit the nail on the head. Nobody's safer; but SOMEBODY is always RICHER. Well said. Eloriel Bush is neither a uniter nor a divider. He's a destroyer. "Face it," wrote Garrison Keiller in Time, "a nation that maintains a 72% approval rating on George W. Bush is a nation with a very loose grip on reality."   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

indepat (1372 posts) Jan-10-03, 03:20 PM (ET) 55. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely" and we absolutely have absolute power concentrated in a single office, thanks to the courts and the Congress who have defied the wisdom and admonition of the founders and framers by giving one person everything he wants. History will perhaps harshly judge those who so willingly abrogated their constitutional duties, made a mockery of the separation of powers.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

welshTerrier2 (113 posts) Jan-10-03, 03:21 PM (ET) 57. Unpatriotic ?? unpatriotic !! that's the charge that gets levelled when you put principles ahead of country ... it's outrageous ... would we call the germans who worked against hitler unpatriotic ?? no, we'd call them heroic ... this wrap yourself in the flag stuff has got to stop ... it's one thing to root for the u.s. olympic hockey team ... it's entirely different to support the upcoming genocide in iraq ... the sad part is that while here on DU we freely express these opinions that put real issues of life and death, right and wrong ahead of some sort of john phillip souza pseudo-patriotism, our candidates are not able to do the same ... can you imagine a democratic candidate saying they hope if there's a war that the u.s. loses because the war is immoral ... i hate the fact that our best candidates are not able to speak out about this ... it would surely be political suicide ... what does that say about the honesty and integrity of the american political process ... so, CatWoman ... good for you to have the courage to express these thoughts ... i'm with you 100% ... They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin Add your straw to the camel's load Pray like hell when the world explode... -Buffy Ste-Marie   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Sophia4Truth (2028 posts) Jan-10-03, 03:23 PM (ET) 59. Why isn't anyone worried about Korea? They seem to be the ones posing a threat! "If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator." George W. Bush (December 18, 2000) http://www.9-11conspiracy.org/ GATHERING INFO. HELP CONTRIBUTE. In honor of EWING's LIHOP. Find out what it means.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Clete (1937 posts) Jan-10-03, 03:32 PM (ET) Reply to post #59 63. I posted a thread on it. http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=27586&forum=DCForumID60 Shameless promotion, I know, but I think it is important that we discuss it. I love my country...but I fear my government.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

txprog (78 posts) Jan-10-03, 03:27 PM (ET) 61. These are the feelings of a human being... Better to accept them than to deny them. I have the same feelings. Same about the economy. I want almost anything that will destroy these terrible people who are running our country.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

ElementaryPenguin (1286 posts) Jan-10-03, 03:33 PM (ET) 65. I agree!! Although I don't a single American to get so much as a... Scratch - I don't want our military prevailing - succeeding in unlawfully conquering another sovereign nation!!! Fuck us!!! I usually root for underdogs - and I ALWAYS root for the bully to get his ass kicked - in any situation!!!   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

WillyT (2840 posts) Jan-10-03, 03:36 PM (ET) Reply to post #65 68. What He Said !!! --- Right On EP, Right On Cat!!! We do not want the Pax Americana group to succeed!!! ~~~Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever does.~ Margaret Mead~~~ "Never, never, never believe any war will be smooth and easy, or that anyone who embarks on the strange voyage can measure the tides and hurricanes he will encounter. The statesman who yields to war fever must realize that once the signal is given, he is no longer the master of policy but the slave of unforeseeable and uncontrollable events." --Winston Churchill "Every gun that is made, every rocket that is fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed." -- Dwight David Eisenhower "Maybe Mr. Perle would like to be in the first wave of those who go into Baghdad." - Senator Chuck Hagel, Republican of Nebraska "All that is needed for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke PROUD MEMBER OF THE GRASSY KNOLL SOCIETY   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Dr Fate (4284 posts) Jan-10-03, 03:33 PM (ET) 66. I dont want any Americans to die for a "success" or "failure"... ...in this fake "war."   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

DrWeird (369 posts) Jan-10-03, 03:39 PM (ET) Reply to post #67 69. If driving SUVs means killing babies... I'll walk, thank you very much. MY HAIR DRYER!   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Miss_Bevey (181 posts) Jan-10-03, 03:45 PM (ET) Reply to post #69 72. Cat, I totally understand how you feel... Why should the United States and the Bushes be rewarded for bad behavior? They loaded that Sadaam up with arms in the first place, continued to do business with him while he gassed the Kurds, refused to take him out when they had the chance, and then decided to destroy half a million people with those rotten sanctions. Now we're getting ready to kill more people for Unocal and Arco. The law of cause and effect is strict. I hope we fail miserably.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

CatWoman (12754 posts) Jan-10-03, 03:40 PM (ET) Reply to post #67 70. And because we use/need oil that gives us the right to slaughter innocent women and children?? Damn, you're heartless. I could go on........... Restore Gore in 2004 Proud Member of the Grassy Knoll Society -- Atlanta Chapter No one can make you feel inferior without your permission -- Eleanor Roosevelt   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Miss_Bevey (181 posts) Jan-10-03, 03:51 PM (ET) Reply to post #70 74. Cat, I'll go one step farther... I don't want this spoiled rotten prick Bush to succeed at anything. Planet Earth is nothing but a plaything to this crime family. It's time to take their toy away from them.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Miss_Bevey (181 posts) Jan-10-03, 04:04 PM (ET) Reply to post #74 75. But wait, there's more... The only sounds I want to come out of that White House in November 2004 are the screams of searing agony and heart-wracking sobs as the entire Bush family goes down in the bitter flames of defeat. God, somebody stop me before I make a complete idiot of myself.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Oaf Of Office (997 posts) Jan-10-03, 04:15 PM (ET) Reply to post #67 77. This has nothing to do with 'fighting to live' This has everything to do with killing innocent people and plundering their natural resources. As long as we continue with this foreign policy, the attacks on Americans will only grow. Kathryn "In the beginning of a change the Patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a Patriot"Mark Twain   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Eloriel (4651 posts) Jan-10-03, 04:05 PM (ET) 76. Me too, Cat My only qualm is what a "defeat" means or might mean for our own troops, who don't deserve what they're about to experience anyway. I want NO deaths from this war -- not theirs, not ours. I don't want a war. I don't even want to take out Saddam. I have not been persuaded that, as bad as he is, he needs to come out of power at OUR hands. I'm sick and tired of the U.S. playing God all over the world with who will be in power and who not. I'm sick of what passes for foreign policy. I'm sick of the CIA and all its shenanigans. I'm sick of all the miscreant, evil weapons we've been developing. I'm sick of the lies and subterfuge. Oh, most of all, I'm sick of all the lies. And I'm sick of the lie that America has become. Besides, I want to see Bush defeated -- and if possible, humiliated -- at EVERY possible turn and opportunity. And I want to see those who persist in making the United States into an arrogant, bullying rogue nation STOPPED. I want them taught a lesson, the easy way or the hard way. Nope, I won't be rooting for a military victory in Iraq. I'll be praying for safety and protection for our troops, each and all, but NOT for some sleazy, immoral and unethical victory. My head is already hung in shame about what Bush's America is and has done -- how could I root for something that will bring me even more shame? How could I root for the blood of innocents -- along with unwitting pawns who are in our military -- being shed in my name? Eloriel Bush is neither a uniter nor a divider. He's a destroyer. "Face it," wrote Garrison Keiller in Time, "a nation that maintains a 72% approval rating on George W. Bush is a nation with a very loose grip on reality."   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Karenina (2356 posts) Jan-10-03, 06:50 PM (ET) Reply to post #76 82. "I'm sick of all the lies." "And I'm sick of the lie that America has become." Me too, Eloriel.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Claire_beth (72 posts) Jan-10-03, 06:47 PM (ET) 81. CatWoman.... You are not alone.. I feel exactly the same. Bush needs to come forward with his so called "EVIDENCE!" I am infuriated to say the least. No wonder the U.S. is hated so much.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

bpilgrim (7629 posts) Jan-10-03, 06:55 PM (ET) 83. War Is A Racket WAR is a racket. It always has been. Smedley Darlington Butler Major General - United States Marine Corps Born West Chester, Pa., July 30, 1881 It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small "inside" group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes. In the World War a mere handful garnered the profits of the conflict. At least 21,000 new millionaires and billionaires were made in the United States during the World War. That many admitted their huge blood gains in their income tax returns. How many other war millionaires falsified their tax returns no one knows. How many of these war millionaires shouldered a rifle? How many of them dug a trench? How many of them knew what it meant to go hungry in a rat-infested dug-out? How many of them spent sleepless, frightened nights, ducking shells and shrapnel and machine gun bullets? How many of them parried a bayonet thrust of an enemy? How many of them were wounded or killed in battle? Out of war nations acquire additional territory, if they are victorious. They just take it. This newly acquired territory promptly is exploited by the few – the selfsame few who wrung dollars out of blood in the war. The general public shoulders the bill. And what is this bill? more... http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm peace -- "The only true wisdom consists in knowing that you know nothing" Socrates Send an email blast to the media today! http://globalfreepress.com/media_blast.pl also check out a REAL free press... http://globalfreepress.com   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

UnapologeticLiberal (908 posts) Jan-10-03, 06:56 PM (ET) 84. So what do you want to happen? Do you want it to turn out like Vietnam? "My folks retired to Florida and all I got was this lousy president."   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Karenina (2356 posts) Jan-10-03, 08:29 PM (ET) Reply to post #84 90. Please do enlighten us about Viet Nam "turned out." As you were no more than a twinkle in your daddy's eyes then, you missed out on all the fun and games. Please DO TELL how YOU think it "turned out." Ever visited the memorial? Know any names on the list?   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

knight_of_the_star (96 posts) Jan-10-03, 07:46 PM (ET) 87. No, you're not wrong I think just about everyone here feels the same way. In America, we are SUPPOSED to be able to voice our opinions freely.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

9215 (1479 posts) Jan-10-03, 08:09 PM (ET) 89. If the US attacks Iraq I want to see the US get its ass kicked like we did in Nam'. It is the only way that the US will reduce its fondness for military action. In this case the US is flat wrong, even it you don't believe that 9/11 was an inside job, which I do. For that reason I am opposed to our "war" in Afghanistan as well. I think, as Lincoln said, that the US is the last best hope for mankind, but we need some serious changes in how behave in the world community. Empoweryour Democrat representative. Send them important info on a topic. They will listen. Easy way to send your three national representatives e-mail with one letter: www.congress.org.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

LiberalLibra (2977 posts) Jan-10-03, 08:35 PM (ET) 91. CatWoman: Need I remind you that if the US does not succeed..... .....a lot of your fellow countrymen who probably don't want this war either will die????? They - the military - are the ones I feel sorry for. Question everything or shut up and be a victim of authority. --Green Day, Warning When they took the fourth amendment, I was quiet because I didn't deal drugs. When they took the sixth amendment, I was quiet because I was innocent. When they took the second amendment, I was quiet because I didn't own a gun. Now they've taken the first amendment, and I can say nothing about it.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MSchreader (1528 posts) Jan-11-03, 08:15 AM (ET) Reply to post #91 92. That's going to happen One way or the other. Young workers -- American and Iraqi -- are going to die in this dirty war, whether the U.S. government wins or not. That's the unavoidable reality of any war. Figuring out the best way of getting them the hell out of there is what we need to be doing. Martin -- The battle for democracy begins with us! -- http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=10269&forum=DCForumID60 You cannot serve two masters -- http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=16570&forum=DCForumID60 "Communism is the riddle of history solved, and it knows itself to be this solution." -- Karl Marx, 1844 "There is being created a growing revolutionary force in American life. The capitalists hold in their hands a mighty power. But within the capitalist order there are generated those forces which weaken and disintegrate that power in the form of the continuous class conflict which capitalism engenders. What is needed is the organization which can combine for the struggle against the capitalists all the forces of opposition which it creates." -- C.E. Ruthenberg, 1924 "I have said that a party is either a capitalist party or it is a labor party. I deny that any party can by any possible means serve both these classes with the same fidelity. It is absolutely impossible. If a party serves the capitalist exploiter it is at the expense of his exploited victim, and if a party serves the exploited worker it is at the expense of his economic master." -- Eugene V. Debs, 1925   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

NicRic (321 posts) Jan-11-03, 08:32 AM (ET) 94. Bombs raining down on inocents ! I believe this is what bothers me the most .In his country we are supposeto have a respect for life and the right to have one .Yet when thousands of our bombs start falling on Iraq , my heart goes out to the inocent children and working poor of the country .They just like the working poor here could care less about who has what weapon , they are just trying to survive another day .What little they have will be destroyed and just like here,the rich and powerful in the country will be hidden away in some safe place.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

agincourt (140 posts) Jan-11-03, 10:34 AM (ET) 97. best scenario Saddam out quickly without hardly a shot fired. The dubya tool they install sets up a representative gov't which throws out bushista corporate interests and nationalizes their oil industry. They get out Saddam but Bush loses the candy, the world unites to keep BFEE cabal from getting their oil through economic sanctions. Iraq wins, democracy wins, Shrub loses. Much better than a bloody campaign which will produce more pod-people clinging to the administration for support.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

DemEx_pat (2311 posts) Jan-11-03, 12:30 PM (ET) 98. You're RIGHT ON to feel this way, CatWoman, and so many things this administration is doing is causing me to feel uncomfortably "anti-American" and to hope for its failure...... This Bush war for oil at the cost of innocent Iraqi's and U.S. armed services people's lives. The U.S. push to get the EU to accept GM crops gets my blood boiling too - something else that my country is pushing that I'm not rooting for..... among almost all the other policies this government is trying to implement. I guess that makes me more of a traitor than you, girl....... And yet I feel like I feel this way because I love my world so much and want the best for it...for all its peoples.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

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