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Question: Could a "hard left" liberal win the presidency?

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vi5 (172 posts) Click to EMail vi5 Click to send private message to vi5 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 11:32 AM (ET)
Question: Could a "hard left" liberal win the presidency?
This was stated in another thread. On the surface I agree with it, but this one thing keeps nagging me:

Bush* is and always has been a hard right politician. As governer and as prez. There is nothing even remotely moderate or centrist about him. He simply succeeded at masking these leanings/tendencies with vague rhetoric and platitudes during the campaign, and then controlling the media and dialogue afterwards so that his status as an ultra conservative is hidden to most who are not political junkies.

The question I have is could a hard left dem pull off the same thing? Could we elect a die-hard liberal who was vague and elusive about his actual stances and disguised them with general platitudes? Or are people in general in this country just more comfortable with someone who they feel may or may not lean right than one who may or may not lean left?

Just looking for thoughts. I don't have any answer so please don't flame me.

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  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 Yes but.... Blue_Chill Jan-08-03 1
   ... in other words: "He would have to LIE"?? arwalden 01/08/2003 5
       That's what I said Blue_Chill 01/08/2003 6
           But you were so polite about it. Makes it seem almost "acceptable" arwalden 01/08/2003 8
 it all depends xchrom Jan-08-03 2
 "Hard left" is an irrelevant term, Armstead Jan-08-03 3
   No it's not UnapologeticLiberal 01/08/2003 71
 think of it like driving a car camero Jan-08-03 4
   i agree with you noiretblu 01/08/2003 66
 Meaningless Question mobuto Jan-08-03 7
   So your answer would be "no"? vi5 01/08/2003 9
       We can argue cause and effect mobuto 01/08/2003 12
 Depends Nederland Jan-08-03 10
 Could a hard-righty be elected? Terwilliger Jan-08-03 11
   Hard Right? Atilla the Hun could get elected. mobuto 01/08/2003 14
       thought it was camero 01/08/2003 19
           Not even Mencken mobuto 01/08/2003 21
   Yep. Reagan and Shrub. Carrielady02 01/08/2003 24
       No, Reagan was hard-stupid... Sephirstein 01/08/2003 51
       Hi Carrielady02!! newyawker99 01/08/2003 68
 No OKNancy Jan-08-03 13
 1992 and 96? Carrielady02 Jan-08-03 15
   Clinton Nederland 01/08/2003 17
 If anyone would listen rainy Jan-08-03 16
 Not very likely, our society has changed. patcox2 Jan-08-03 18
   that is the best post I ever read camero 01/08/2003 20
       agreed ,,,,right on the mark n/r bearfartinthewoods 01/08/2003 56
   Well said Spentastic 01/08/2003 22
       Tribalism midnight armadillo 01/08/2003 35
   Well... CWebster 01/08/2003 23
   Wonderfully said. Kudos. RichM 01/08/2003 26
   Sadly... salin 01/08/2003 27
       Hey salin, oneighty 01/08/2003 39
           I think you may be right. salin 01/08/2003 42
               Yes. oneighty 01/08/2003 53
       As a general rule you are right, but its not always like that. patcox2 01/08/2003 49
           I was about to respond... salin 01/08/2003 62
   Great analysis -- but too fatalistic Armstead 01/08/2003 32
       Yes, Armstead, that's exactly right Lydia Leftcoast 01/08/2003 40
   Great analysis knowledgeispower 01/08/2003 58
   Outstanding! ProfessorGAC 01/08/2003 64
 That is what I would love to see bearfan454 Jan-08-03 25
   Its a cop out CWebster 01/08/2003 29
       Clinton seriously damaged the party knowledgeispower 01/08/2003 61
 Yes ieoeja Jan-08-03 28
   In Florida camero 01/08/2003 30
 I honestly don't think so CMT Jan-08-03 31
 Answer jiacinto Jan-08-03 33
 Wellstone! Alexander Jan-08-03 34
   Wellstone would have mobilized the left knowledgeispower 01/08/2003 63
       About Edwards camero 01/08/2003 65
 No, It's been tried and it has failed. Liberal_Guerilla Jan-08-03 36
   You just don't get it yet... CWebster 01/08/2003 37
       You're right! I don't get poliotical suicide. Liberal_Guerilla 01/08/2003 41
           My inclination is to suspect that you are very young. CWebster 01/08/2003 43
               Thank you. Liberal_Guerilla 01/08/2003 44
                   Looks like your CWebster 01/08/2003 46
                       Huh!! Liberal_Guerilla 01/08/2003 47
       I agree with you C camero 01/08/2003 50
           the dems are in a bind.. nayt 01/08/2003 55
               how many votes did nader get ? camero 01/08/2003 57
               Good point, but... Liberal_Guerilla 01/08/2003 59
                   I think it is so sad camero 01/08/2003 60
                   3x as many...you think? noiretblu 01/08/2003 67
 Like a stealth liberal? Cocoa Jan-08-03 38
 Stealth liberal all the way skewthat Jan-08-03 45
 Definately- With The Right Packaging cryingshame Jan-08-03 48
 Could a "HARD RIGHT" conservative canidate win? bpilgrim Jan-08-03 52
 Yes ButterflyBlood Jan-08-03 54
 Repooks get away with hard right, because the voters mlawson Jan-08-03 69
 social lib yes economic lib no stevebreeze Jan-08-03 70

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Blue_Chill (296 posts) Click to EMail Blue_Chill Click to send private message to Blue_Chill Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 11:37 AM (ET)
1. Yes but....
This "hard left liberal" politician would have to do exactly what Bush did, lie to make themselves seem more towards the middle.
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arwalden (5643 posts) Click to EMail arwalden Click to send private message to arwalden Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 11:47 AM (ET)
Reply to post #1
5. ... in other words: "He would have to LIE"??

-- Allen




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Blue_Chill (296 posts) Click to EMail Blue_Chill Click to send private message to Blue_Chill Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 11:49 AM (ET)
Reply to post #5
6. That's what I said
only I added what he would have to lie about. I even used the word LIE.

LoL

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arwalden (5643 posts) Click to EMail arwalden Click to send private message to arwalden Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 11:54 AM (ET)
Reply to post #6
8. But you were so polite about it. Makes it seem almost "acceptable"
... I was just boiling it down to it's basic component. He would have to be a liar.

I guess it did look like I was simply repeating what you said. Sorry.

-- Allen




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xchrom Donating Member (3361 posts) Click to EMail xchrom Click to send private message to xchrom Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 11:40 AM (ET)
2. it all depends
on the person communicating the idea -- at that juncture style is everything.
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Armstead Donating Member (6146 posts) Click to EMail Armstead Click to send private message to Armstead Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 11:42 AM (ET)
3. "Hard left" is an irrelevant term,
Today's "hard left" is yesterday's mainstream liberal in many ways.

I believe a candidate who has strong liberal/progressive populist positions could win the presidency. But they would have to be a great candidate on a personal level, politically savvy, package it in the right way and -- most important -- have the support of the Democratic Party leadership.


"We need a two-party system again....At least."

"Despite all appearances: A better world IS possible."

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UnapologeticLiberal Donating Member (851 posts) Click to EMail UnapologeticLiberal Click to send private message to UnapologeticLiberal Click to view user profile Click to send message via ICQ Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 08:22 PM (ET)
Reply to post #3
71. No it's not
Some of the things people on the hard left advocate, such as the notion that people are not entitled to have more than a certain amount of money no matter how hard they worked for it because other people did not have enough...these ideas were fringe in the days of FDR.

"My folks retired to Florida and all I got was this lousy president."

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camero (406 posts) Click to EMail camero Click to send private message to camero Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 11:45 AM (ET)
4. think of it like driving a car
LAST EDITED ON Jan-08-03 AT 11:46 AM (ET)

usually when you steer hard one way you have to steer equally hard the other way to avoid running off the road.

I think the next Dem will have to be hard left to correct the impotency of the Bush Administration.

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noiretblu Donating Member (3985 posts) Click to EMail noiretblu Click to send private message to noiretblu Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 06:27 PM (ET)
Reply to post #4
66. i agree with you
a hard left is needed to get us out of the abyss.



Northern California Chapter

In politics nothing happens by accident. If it happened, you can bet it was planned that way.
Franklin Delano Roosevelt


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mobuto (2558 posts) Click to EMail mobuto Click to send private message to mobuto Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 11:54 AM (ET)
7. Meaningless Question
Whether or not its possible for a hypothetical "hard-left" politician (whatever that means) to be elected president is beside the point, because there simply aren't any such real-life politicians who have even the most remote shot at the presidency.
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vi5 (172 posts) Click to EMail vi5 Click to send private message to vi5 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 11:58 AM (ET)
Reply to post #7
9. So your answer would be "no"?
That's what I'm asking. Is the reason that none of these politicians has a shot at the presidency BECAUSE they are hard-left or because they haven't presented the message in a palatable way to the American public?
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mobuto (2558 posts) Click to EMail mobuto Click to send private message to mobuto Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 12:09 PM (ET)
Reply to post #9
12. We can argue cause and effect
but its really a parlor game.

Is it conceivable that somewhere, sometime, with the right allignment of the planets, a "hard-left" politician could be elected President? Sure.

Just as its theoretically possible for Michael Jackson, sans nose, or Atouk the Caveman to be elected President. It just ain't bloody likely.

The fact is, there simply aren't any "hard-left" politicians out there at present who have a realistic chance of getting elected. Come up with a candidate and that may change.

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Nederland (890 posts) Click to EMail Nederland Click to send private message to Nederland Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 11:59 AM (ET)
10. Depends
LAST EDITED ON Jan-08-03 AT 12:10 PM (ET)

I think it depends on what you mean by hard left. On social issues, the "left" is becoming the norm. Racial equality, acceptance of homosexuals in society, a belief that woman can do a "man's" job as well or better than men--the left is winning on all of these issues. On economic issues however, the left is losing ground. A person with hard core socialists ideas could never win. A person who dares to do something as simple as question the wisdom of cutting taxes and shrinking government is putting themsleves on the line. My personal take is that America is not becoming more right wing, it is becoming more Libertarian.


America is not DU.

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Terwilliger Donating Member (5048 posts) Click to EMail Terwilliger Click to send private message to Terwilliger Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 12:03 PM (ET)
11. Could a hard-righty be elected?

I don't mean appointed 5 to 4, but do you think a Tom Delay could be voted president? They've voted for far more dumber people, and what kind of threat would he represent?

Someone on the left has to lead. It ain't me, and I don't see anyone who inspires anything except business as usual.


I can only hope for revolution

Leftist Whatever

Currently on the road, reading "A People's History of the United States" by Howard Zinn,
and becoming more disgusted with every new page

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mobuto (2558 posts) Click to EMail mobuto Click to send private message to mobuto Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 11:11 AM (ET)
Reply to post #11
14. Hard Right? Atilla the Hun could get elected.
As Mencken said, "No one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public."
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camero (406 posts) Click to EMail camero Click to send private message to camero Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 11:29 AM (ET)
Reply to post #14
19. thought it was
noone ever went broke underestimating the intelligance of the american people.
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mobuto (2558 posts) Click to EMail mobuto Click to send private message to mobuto Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 11:37 AM (ET)
Reply to post #19
21. Not even Mencken
was that cynical.

But you may have a point...

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Carrielady02 (17 posts) Click to EMail Carrielady02 Click to send private message to Carrielady02 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 12:11 PM (ET)
Reply to post #11
24. Yep. Reagan and Shrub.
Ronald Reagan is about as hard right as you can get and Shrub is not far behind, but the reason these men won....is that they are personable (amiable dunces)....And this is why the likes of Delay or Newt could never win. They are just too damned nasty.
But Clinton was certainly left of center and won handily...again, a sunny and upbeat disposition. I think Daschle and Gephardt would be perceived as too mean or complaining (remember Daschle's Senate floor outburst?) So my point:..far left or far right....you can win if you if you are perceived as even keel and nice.
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Sephirstein (1886 posts) Click to EMail Sephirstein Click to send private message to Sephirstein Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 03:49 PM (ET)
Reply to post #24
51. No, Reagan was hard-stupid...
His cabinet and staff and other GOP insiders were hard-right.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (25925 posts) Click to EMail newyawker99 Click to send private message to newyawker99 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 06:38 PM (ET)
Reply to post #24
68. Hi Carrielady02!!
Welcome to DU!!




Have you been to the lounge? Come and join the fun!!



This is not the life I ordered.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke

"Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my friend." Albert Camus


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OKNancy Donating Member (617 posts) Click to EMail OKNancy Click to send private message to OKNancy Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 11:10 AM (ET)
13. No
Not now. When I was a virgin poster on DU I wrote a post about how liberal thought will always win in the end. I still think that. Now, all I care about is winning the hearts and minds of the public. Those hearts and minds are a bit conservative after 9/11. Fear does strange things to people.
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Carrielady02 (17 posts) Click to EMail Carrielady02 Click to send private message to Carrielady02 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 11:20 AM (ET)
15. 1992 and 96?
I thought we had a guy who did exactly what you are saying
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Nederland (890 posts) Click to EMail Nederland Click to send private message to Nederland Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 11:27 AM (ET)
Reply to post #15
17. Clinton
I never thought of Bill Clinton as hard left. Hillary might have been, but she's not now either...

America is not DU.

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rainy (45 posts) Click to EMail rainy Click to send private message to rainy Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 11:26 AM (ET)
16. If anyone would listen
If the media was not so Republican leaning and anti-liberal we would have a chance but with the biased corporate owned media and rigged voting machines we no longer have a chance. Liberal voices are not being heard and are being minimalized.
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patcox2 (647 posts) Click to EMail patcox2 Click to send private message to patcox2 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 11:28 AM (ET)
18. Not very likely, our society has changed.
I really doubt a "hard left" liberal could get elected, by which I mean its almost impossible, because it seems to me our society has changed drastically from the days of the old, traditional Roosevelt to Johnson great society liberalism.

When I say "hard left," that is what I mean, someone who would support progressive taxation for the purpose of redistributing wealth, support unions, support strict anti-trust laws, strong regulations to protect consumers and investors, and social programs to help the poor. Essentially, its about protecting the weak from the powerful, levelling the playing field, and keeping the markets open and honest. Civil rights and equality and openness and honesty in government go without saying. Thats not really hard left by my definition, these principles were all generally accepted 60 years ago, and I think these are the fundamental purposes of government.

But it seems our society itself no longer accepts these basic premises. Even here we have some who defend Microsoft's "right" to have a monoply, who question income redistribution, who accept the conservative dogma that free markets can solve problems on their own.

I think that this is evidence that our entire society has become much more conservative than it was. Some guesses as to why:

We are too spoiled, there has been no shared sacrifice or common hardship since the depression and WWII. As a result we have less of a sense of community, and we are less understanding of tragedy and failure. When everyone suffers, when you see good people you know lose their job and become poor through no fault of their own, you understand that the poor are poor mostly for reasons beyond their control, not because they are lazy. Shared hardship promotes community and compassion (even the Marines know that, hence bootcamp). We are too rich and it is making us more judgmental and mean and stingy.

We are too materialistic, we have elevated material success above all other factors, we literally worship wealth and thus feel that the end justifies the means when it comes to money. You get that attitude when you try to argue about Gates, for example, people say "sure, he was ruthless, but you have to be, he succeeded" as if the mere fact that he attained great wealth is all the proof needed that the means by which he attained it were okay. This is why for some odd reason even poor people gare sympathetic to millionaires and oppose taxation and regulation. Its almost a religion, money equals virtue and worth, in the mind of way too many.

Journalistic "profssionalism." Beginning about 60 years ago, jurnalism changed, journalists were taught that they had to be "profesional" and "objective." Before that, everyone knew every paper had a bias and interpreted accordingly, now we just accept this myth that the news is fair and unbiased, which is crap. But even worse is the way this affects coverage of issues; journalists today seem to thin that "objectivity" requires them to give equal respect to "both sides" on an issue. I think thats way wrong, because frankly, there is only one right side to many issues. The Bush tax cut favors the rich, thats objective reality. But watch the news, you will seee they give equal time to the person who says it favors the rich, nd to the republican whore who says it will create jobs and help the poor. By trying to appear objective, the news creates the false impression that its up in the air and either side might be right, as a result, some viewers beleive one side or the other (thats us and them, the voters) while most viewer beleive neither (a perfectly valid approach) and they write the whole thing off and they don't vote.

Greed.

Ignorance. Our schools really do suck in some ways, kids are amazingly uninformed on so much that is important, there is a superficial understanding of many things and deep understanding of little, it seems.

Violence. We are a very violent culture, driven by ultra-violent entertainments, action hero movies in which literally hundreds are killed by the "hero" in an hour. Deliberate cruelty is glorified (hasta la vista, baby) and weakness is derided. We are a cruel and volent people and we are way too ready, for example, to "nuke em", fuck them, kill them, lock them up and throw away the key.

Essentially, we have as a society rejected the traditional virtues, charity, mercy, forgiveness. Charity is not just for the "deserving," if they were deserving it would be "wages." Mercy is not for the innocent, its only mercy if they are guilty, sme with forgiveness, we are supposed to forgive those who hurt us, who commit crimes against us, its not something you only do when its no skin off your teeth. Our society has completely rejected these virtues in practice, now paying only lip-service to them. They are all now regared as weaknesses by a society that worships aggression and success above all and has no pity for "losers."

Since most of the ideals of the old fashioned left involve these virtues, charity, mercy, protecting the poor and helpless, making sure the game is fair, our society as a whole equates "liberal" with "weak, namby pamby,loser." Its sad.

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camero (406 posts) Click to EMail camero Click to send private message to camero Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 11:34 AM (ET)
Reply to post #18
20. that is the best post I ever read
thank you so much for stating the obvious.
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bearfartinthewoods (485 posts) Click to EMail bearfartinthewoods Click to send private message to bearfartinthewoods Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 04:46 PM (ET)
Reply to post #20
56. agreed ,,,,right on the mark n/r


you can call us bear, you can call us fart, no biggee, either way

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Spentastic (440 posts) Click to EMail Spentastic Click to send private message to Spentastic Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 11:43 AM (ET)
Reply to post #18
22. Well said
Furthermore I'd argue that the agents of the right have been far more successful than they have been given credit for. The move away from community action to self gratification has been fueled by a relentless media machine.

This hit home when I realised I may have seen the ultimate in stupid defences yesterday, when watching a discussion about S.U.V.s. Basically an environmentalist pointed out Gas Mileage, safety concerns, utility, danger to pedestrians, danger to other car users and the pure selfish mentality required to own one of these behemoths. The pro argument went something like this ' Americans like sitting up high and they really like SUVs and won't listen to anything you say, so tough shit!' What chance does the left stand when the majority of people take pride in being wilfully ignorant? It's at times like these I despair.

Furthermore, My mother asked me not to talk about global politics i.e Iraq war in front of my sister and her husband (they've had a new child, he's beautiful). This was after mentioning that this generation could be the last unless we pull ourselves together. My mum said that such talk would upset them, I asked about Iraqi children at which point she told me to shut up. She didn't want to know. I believe that in comfortable middle america most people couldn't give a shit about dead Iraqis...

I'm profoundly sad. We have lost something and we may never get it back.

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midnight armadillo (65 posts) Click to EMail midnight%20armadillo Click to send private message to midnight%20armadillo Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 01:14 PM (ET)
Reply to post #22
35. Tribalism
It's a common part of human nature to be less concerned about the members of other tribes (i.e. nations, ethnicities, etc.) than about your own. By this viewpoint, if the Iraqi children are slaughtered to protect (by some leap of reason) American children, then so be it. The demonization and dehumanization of enemies in war is an extreme example of this - a similar thing happens in politics these days when people are accused of being un-patriotic and un-American. They're out of the club, so to speak.
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CWebster (472 posts) Click to EMail CWebster Click to send private message to CWebster Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 12:00 PM (ET)
Reply to post #18
23. Well...
Here is one answer:

"...accept the conservative dogma that free markets can solve problems on their own."

Which brought us the likes on Enron and was a scandal of such magnitude that is could've tarnished Bush/Cheney with yet unrevealed revelations and what do we hear from the Democrats?

NADA.

They couldn't even use it because their hands were in the same cookie jar. See what centrism, the Republican model, brings you? Rather than building and BROADCASTING on the integrity and worthiness of the Democratic message, they hijacked the Republican spin, they adopted the mantra, thinking it was good strategy--they wouldn't leave themselves open to attack from those meany Republicans. The New Dems thought they were so clever, butnow they can't fight back because they don't have the issues on their side anymore.

The society is conservative because that is what they are bombarded with constantly, but there is a disconnect between how they are bamboozled with terms as opposed to the issues that you mention in your first paragraph.

We know what the Republican are all about, their priorities, their mandate, but it is the Democrats who have failed to champion their own side of the story which is leading us down this path.

And it makes me sick, to think that any mandate will only come from the increasing suffering of the majority who have no voice in their leadership to uphold all the New Deal protections that came about from the suffering of the majority.

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RichM Donating Member (2805 posts) Click to EMail RichM Click to send private message to RichM Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 12:24 PM (ET)
Reply to post #18
26. Wonderfully said. Kudos.
"We are too spoiled ... no shared sacrifice...
we have as a society rejected the traditional virtues, charity, mercy, forgiveness..."

Wonderful combination of painting the big picture, & reaching the emotional heart of the situation.

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salin Donating Member (10943 posts) Click to EMail salin Click to send private message to salin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 12:27 PM (ET)
Reply to post #18
27. Sadly...
unless conditions became so bad that "big change" was wanted and desired... you are likely correct. The only reason that would happen would be that the conditions would create a shift in public perception and discourse. Sadly, some economic indicators suggest that we could be in for seriously tumultous times (one big one the increased level of debt - of individuals, of banks and of corporations) which could create those conditions (for a shift) - but the consequences of such an event coming to pass could be so severe for those who can least afford to weather it - that I desperately hope this does not come to pass.

Otherwise it would only happen after a long period of time - with small incremental shifts in attitudes - sort of like what has happened in public discourse since the late seventies/early eighties and on. When Reagan was first elected many of todays "givens" (in political discourse) were considered out there, cold, and by some - ridiculous. It was a slow, long and steady shift in discourse (assisted by Reagan's affability as a spokesperson, and the emergence of a coterie of effective pundits and airwave personalities to echo the message). It is conceivable that a counter effort could - over time - have an effect to push a pendulum in the other direction. But I would venture to guess that this would take a very, very long time and would only move in small increments.

"We expect there to be transparency. People who have something to hide make us nervous...." GWB in Alaska - discussing Iraq.

A Proud Wellstone Democrat
UNAPOLOGETIC, PROUD, POSITIVE, HOPEFUL,OPTIMISTIC LIBERAL AND PROGRESSIVE

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oneighty Donating Member (2311 posts) Click to EMail oneighty Click to send private message to oneighty Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 01:49 PM (ET)
Reply to post #27
39. Hey salin,
Hello. The great depression brought on the populist champion FDR. We are moving in that direction now.

Today's populist champion is out there some place right now. I do not believe we have met him yet.

180

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salin Donating Member (10943 posts) Click to EMail salin Click to send private message to salin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 02:18 PM (ET)
Reply to post #39
42. I think you may be right.
Read some of the words of Cuomo the other day - I still like that man! I think the message of this here to for unknown - will sound sort of like Cuomo's.

"We expect there to be transparency. People who have something to hide make us nervous...." GWB in Alaska - discussing Iraq.

A Proud Wellstone Democrat
UNAPOLOGETIC, PROUD, POSITIVE, HOPEFUL,OPTIMISTIC LIBERAL AND PROGRESSIVE

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oneighty Donating Member (2311 posts) Click to EMail oneighty Click to send private message to oneighty Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 04:22 PM (ET)
Reply to post #42
53. Yes.
And yes again.

180

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patcox2 (647 posts) Click to EMail patcox2 Click to send private message to patcox2 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 03:43 PM (ET)
Reply to post #27
49. As a general rule you are right, but its not always like that.
Popular opinion, the national mood, what the people in the business pompously call the zeitgeist, can sometimes change radically as a result of random and even small events which, to use another current political catchphrase, resonate.

I love to compare politics to pop culture. Its a contra view to the opinions often expressed here, that imply that politicians are able to shape or lead popular opinion, and therefor are to be blamed when they are out of favor.

I think they are more like surfers, the surfer does not make the wave, but he does have to catch it and artfully carve it. Just as pop musicians do, look at the seismic shift from hair bands and madonna to grunge back in 1991, who saw that coming? Fads happen, suddenly a catchphrase, a meme, an attitude will click and make a huge difference. And its unpredictable, and sometimes, the prior trend is at its strongest right before it collapses. The impeachment was like that, the republicans were so overconfident, they thought they had Clinton dead and buried, they were crowing and celebrating, then, after that scene with Gephard on the White House lawn, jaw set in rage saying he will stand by the president, and the next thing you know, Newt Gingrich is gone, Livingstone had flamed out, the republicans were visibly afraid all of a sudden, the Senate republicans wanted nothing to do with impeaching Clinton, they just wanted to get out of the mess and save face, an the month clinton was impeached he had a 70% approval rating. Who saw it ending that way?

Its like a rock and roll band, trying to make the music that will click, there is more art than science to it, you can't say they should have done this, they should have done that. The public is above all fickle. Who here can predict the next milion selling song, the next bestselling novel, out of all the equally worthy contenders trying their best? It depends, it depends, one little remark by another Republican can change it, the release of the Cheney energy task force info, changing the ethics rules so they can accept gifts of food, you never know. It would only take a moment for one of these democratic candidates to take off, just as it only took a moment in a silly helmet for dukakis to crash and burn.

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salin Donating Member (10943 posts) Click to EMail salin Click to send private message to salin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 05:16 PM (ET)
Reply to post #49
62. I was about to respond...
that while the temprement can change on the flip of the dime - that on the political spectrum (and support of policies) the distance is most often incremental. People voted for a packaged bush centrist - not the rightwing ideologue who emerged.

But then I thought of Ronald Reagan (who represented a HUGE shift) - and how initially in the preprimary season was treated as a "joke" - and how far a departure his views were from the then-mainstream... and realized that you are absolutely right. The public can always be mercurial - and sometimes almost radically so (as in the RR example).

"We expect there to be transparency. People who have something to hide make us nervous...." GWB in Alaska - discussing Iraq.

A Proud Wellstone Democrat
UNAPOLOGETIC, PROUD, POSITIVE, HOPEFUL,OPTIMISTIC LIBERAL AND PROGRESSIVE

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Armstead Donating Member (6146 posts) Click to EMail Armstead Click to send private message to Armstead Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 12:42 PM (ET)
Reply to post #18
32. Great analysis -- but too fatalistic
LAST EDITED ON Jan-08-03 AT 12:43 PM (ET)

I would agree with much of what you said. Except I would add that those who believe we are liberals (progressives, whatever) have utterly failed and been spineless cowards for the last 25 years.

People haven't changed any. But we failed.

The GOP and right wing fought. We walked away.

We didn't offer people different ways of looking at things. So all people saw and heard was right-wing propaganda. And so the balance was tilted over time.

With some worthy exceptions, WE never challenged these trends towards selfishness and right-wing dominance. For some it was cowardice, for others it was an attempt to be "pragmatic" and for otehrs it was buying into the conserrvative lies ourselves. Or some combination of all of the above.

I believe our own failures are just as responsible for our present sorry mess.

But I also believe we can turn it around IF we stop looking for excuses, stop apologizing for what we believe in, stop trying to put a duck suit on a chicken -- and instead start believing in our beliefs again and start clearly explaining and defending them.

"We need a two-party system again....At least."

"Despite all appearances: A better world IS possible."

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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (5319 posts) Click to EMail Lydia%20Leftcoast Click to send private message to Lydia%20Leftcoast Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 02:01 PM (ET)
Reply to post #32
40. Yes, Armstead, that's exactly right
The rightwingers didn't win. The liberals threw the game, despite the protests of a few team members (regarded as "from outer space" by the establishment Dems) who wanted to fight back.

I believe that a left-wing populist (not a stereotypical "latte liberal") could win by emphasizing the economic concerns that no one is talking about and hammering the message that these are not the concerns of "special interest groups" (employed people are NOT a special interest group--they're the majority) and that Bush's policies harm the majority of Americans, regardless of race, gender, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, or place of residence.

The second vital element would be an attractive personality and exciting campaign persona on the order of Bill Clinton.

Actually, I'd like to see an ethical, honest version of Huey Long. I'm only half kidding.

What if FDR had been afraid of
alienating the moderates?

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knowledgeispower (142 posts) Click to EMail knowledgeispower Click to send private message to knowledgeispower Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 05:04 PM (ET)
Reply to post #18
58. Great analysis
I think that, more than anything else, the abandonment of rational thought has led to the liberal decline. Today people sit in front of the television for hours per day, just passively accepting everything that they see. People don't question the television; they don't think long and hard about the implications of what it says. I think we used to do that with the print media, but the television is just not conducive to that same line of thinking.

As a result, I believe a lot of people are unable to give anything a serious, rational, and thorough inspection. This includes the ideals that are pushed to us through the media. Buy, Spend, Consume, etc. Why are those "american values"? Should they be? Would we be better off stressing other values? People simply do not examine these questions. If they did, I think it would most certainly lead them to a more liberal philosophy.

"My own country is the biggest purveyor of
violence in the world today...For the sake of
hundreds of thousands trembling under our
violence, I cannot be silent.

-Dr. Martin Luther King, Beyond Vietnam
speech, 1968

US FOREIGN POLICY IS MASS MURDER

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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1732 posts) Click to EMail ProfessorGAC Click to send private message to ProfessorGAC Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 05:33 PM (ET)
Reply to post #18
64. Outstanding!
Great Post, Patcox2
The Professor
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bearfan454 (327 posts) Click to EMail bearfan454 Click to send private message to bearfan454 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 12:12 PM (ET)
25. That is what I would love to see
but would their message even be on the news ? Of all the people I see running so far we don't really have a hard left candidate, unless you want to say Howard Dean is it. You know, he did NOT vote for the Patriot Act that takes away our Constsitutional Roghts. All the other weenies did.
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CWebster (472 posts) Click to EMail CWebster Click to send private message to CWebster Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 12:34 PM (ET)
Reply to post #25
29. Its a cop out
to continually blame the media, because look at what the Democrats have given them to report: a race to support and stand shoulder to shoulder with Bush, lukewarm opposition and no message. They need "new ideas" because triangulation is a strategy that doesn't work under the present circumstances.

I think the Dems had the wind kicked out of them after Clinton was dragged through the mud, and then the 2000 election, compounded by the lack of formulation of a clear identity as a result of compromising that identity. Now they can't get their footing because they have rejected their own message and their own representitives of that message, believing the Republican drumbeat that anything tainted liberal or democrat, even is unpopular and they are left with nothing to report about.

It's the truth and the first thing they have to do is launch a pro-Democrat, pro democracy campaign. Ya think they got any organizers or money left over for that?

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knowledgeispower (142 posts) Click to EMail knowledgeispower Click to send private message to knowledgeispower Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 05:15 PM (ET)
Reply to post #29
61. Clinton seriously damaged the party
Say what you want about his effectiveness as president or what he did/did not do for the left wing. But the one thing you really can't argue about with the Clinton presidency is that he hurt the democratic party. First of all, Clinton WAS the democrats for eight years, so now they have no sense of identity. That isn't his fault. But what IS his fault is that he represented the "new democrats", which are precisely the democrats we are watching today as they "stand behind" an ultra right wing conservative.

Of course, one could argue that the 2000 elections changed everything. If Al Gore had been given his rightful seat of President, who knows where we would be today? Would Gore have the same (or close to) approval ratings Clinton enjoyed after 1996? Would Gore go 8 years? Would he have been more leftist? The political landscape would be quite a bit different today if it were not for the right wing coup that was Bush v. Gore

"My own country is the biggest purveyor of
violence in the world today...For the sake of
hundreds of thousands trembling under our
violence, I cannot be silent.

-Dr. Martin Luther King, Beyond Vietnam
speech, 1968

US FOREIGN POLICY IS MASS MURDER

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ieoeja (347 posts) Click to EMail ieoeja Click to send private message to ieoeja Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 12:32 PM (ET)
28. Yes

I agree that he would have to lie. But he wouldn't have to lie as much as Bush. Remember '92 when everyone thought electing Clinton would make the 80s look like the 60s made the 50s to quote a movie line? Clinton ran left and governed center. Bush ran center and governed right. I believe the American public is more liberal than we give credit them.

Just don't use the word "liberal", stick to the policies, and be a regular Joe or Jane. Look at Florida where the Republicans swept the elections, but every Democratic policy up for vote was approved by the electorate. They agree with us, they just don't like us.

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camero (406 posts) Click to EMail camero Click to send private message to camero Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 12:37 PM (ET)
Reply to post #28
30. In Florida
they just said yes to everything on the amendments (except for home rule for "librul" Miami Dade County). They also voted to change the constitution to make it easier to put someone to death and lowered the age to 16.

They want things but they want someone else to pay for it.

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CMT Donating Member (990 posts) Click to EMail CMT Click to send private message to CMT Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 12:41 PM (ET)
31. I honestly don't think so
I don't think at this point it is a possibility. Even during the depression in '32 Eugene Debs got his greatest number of votes but that only came to about 2%. We are at heart a conservative country. Carter and Clinton were successful becuz they ran as moderates--who did emphasize some populist themes.
Of the serious candidates in the race for the nomination right now I think Howard Dean is probably the most liberal, but even he realizes that he has to appeal to the middle and so he keeps emphasizing that he is a fiscal conservative who has balanced budgets and cut taxes.
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jiacinto Donating Member (13278 posts) Click to EMail jiacinto Click to send private message to jiacinto Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 01:07 PM (ET)
33. Answer
It depends on whom the candidates are.
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Alexander Donating Member (755 posts) Click to EMail Alexander Click to send private message to Alexander Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 01:14 PM (ET)
34. Wellstone!
I'm convinced he could have gotten elected president - but by a marrow margin.

The problem with our leftist candidates we've had (McGovern, Mondale, Dukakis) is that they were uninspiring and uncharismatic. Give us a leftist candidate who can get people off their butts and to the polling booths, and who can attract crossover votes, and we've got a victory.

I would also say that Howard Dean is something of a leftist candidate, so it will be interesting to see if he can get himself elected president. I hope so.

When this you see, remember me
And bear me in your mind
Let all the world say what they may
Speak of me as you find

Brian Jones

Founder of the Rolling Stones

February 28 1942 - July 3 1969

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knowledgeispower (142 posts) Click to EMail knowledgeispower Click to send private message to knowledgeispower Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 05:19 PM (ET)
Reply to post #34
63. Wellstone would have mobilized the left
The man had an uncanny ability to make people believe in him and his policies. In the state of Minnesota even right wingers would not disparage Wellstone. They might have disagreed with his policies, but they saw that when you got down to it he was an honest politician. You don't find too many of them these days. I think the people would have really reacted to that on a mass scale.

But now I see the only possibilities as Dean and Edwards. Dean claims to be a moderate, which disturbs me. Perhaps he is only claiming such because he doesn't think he can get elected as a left winger. Sort of like the anti-Bush.

I don't know enough about Edwards yet to say for sure that I support him, but I certainly like what I have heard from him so far.

"My own country is the biggest purveyor of
violence in the world today...For the sake of
hundreds of thousands trembling under our
violence, I cannot be silent.

-Dr. Martin Luther King, Beyond Vietnam
speech, 1968

US FOREIGN POLICY IS MASS MURDER

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camero (406 posts) Click to EMail camero Click to send private message to camero Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 06:24 PM (ET)
Reply to post #63
65. About Edwards
I'm kinda thinking it's a replay of Bill McBride in FL. Hope not but that is what my gut is telling me.
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Liberal_Guerilla Donating Member (2101 posts) Click to EMail Liberal_Guerilla Click to send private message to Liberal_Guerilla Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 01:19 PM (ET)
36. No, It's been tried and it has failed.
And that is the lesson that the greens and Ralphie boy never learned or never wanted to learn, But I guess that we're all much better off now that the GOP owns every house of Government. Now that the left is virtually dead, Ralphie and the greens will rise out of the dem ashes as liberal saviors.

We're waiting for your orders Ralphie boy.

John Edwards for President.

http://www.newamericanoptimists.com/elandslide/index.cfm

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CWebster (472 posts) Click to EMail CWebster Click to send private message to CWebster Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 01:29 PM (ET)
Reply to post #36
37. You just don't get it yet...
There would be no Green "problem" if there was no void left to fill when the Democrats vacated their base. And, as it gets worse, you continue to blame the Greens instead of looking to see what created the situation. It's on par with standing behind the president to demonstrate patriotic allegiance, while the Country goes down the tubes.


What is it gonna take for you to make that connection?

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Liberal_Guerilla Donating Member (2101 posts) Click to EMail Liberal_Guerilla Click to send private message to Liberal_Guerilla Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 02:13 PM (ET)
Reply to post #37
41. You're right! I don't get poliotical suicide.
There would be no green problem if the greens had an actual politically intelligent bone in their body, but they don't. The greens sold the only viable liberal party in America in exchange for matching funds, and they didn't even get that. The greens are like judas and the dems are like Jesus. Now we are on the cross.

And not only did they Screw the only viable liberal alternative in this country but they also screwed the most Liberal President that this country would have had thus far(AL Gore), and that could have opened doors for further left Presidents to eventually be voted in. Instead we have now take a 50 to 100 year step backward and the dem party has been decimated.

continue to stick up for the big green lie, It does not matter to me, the greens are obsolete now anyways, and you can thank Ralphie boy for that.

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CWebster (472 posts) Click to EMail CWebster Click to send private message to CWebster Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 02:39 PM (ET)
Reply to post #41
43. My inclination is to suspect that you are very young.
I'll leave it at that.
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Liberal_Guerilla Donating Member (2101 posts) Click to EMail Liberal_Guerilla Click to send private message to Liberal_Guerilla Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 02:42 PM (ET)
Reply to post #43
44. Thank you.
I like to think of thirty five as being young, though not as young as most of the politically naive greens seem to be. They obviously do not remember the Reagan/Bush years and how hard it was to win the presidency in 92 to begin with. it wouldn't of happened if it wasn't for Ross Perot.
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CWebster (472 posts) Click to EMail CWebster Click to send private message to CWebster Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 02:48 PM (ET)
Reply to post #44
46. Looks like your
liberal savior turned out to be neither.
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Liberal_Guerilla Donating Member (2101 posts) Click to EMail Liberal_Guerilla Click to send private message to Liberal_Guerilla Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 02:53 PM (ET)
Reply to post #46
47. Huh!!
Are you reffering to Ralphie boy?
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camero (406 posts) Click to EMail camero Click to send private message to camero Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 03:45 PM (ET)
Reply to post #37
50. I agree with you C
LAST EDITED ON Jan-08-03 AT 03:45 PM (ET)

the democratic party has been alienating economic liberals for quite awhile now. the greens just merely took their place and until the democrats can woo these people back, they will have a problem winning the presidency.

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nayt (2 posts) Click to EMail nayt Click to send private message to nayt Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 04:43 PM (ET)
Reply to post #50
55. the dems are in a bind..
...because they will probably lose just as many votes in the center if they swing hard left to satisfy the greens.
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camero (406 posts) Click to EMail camero Click to send private message to camero Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 04:50 PM (ET)
Reply to post #55
57. how many votes did nader get ?
3 Million? and not many social liberals would give their sexual or speech rights away and vote for repukes but are we so hard-hearted that I am mistaken?
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Liberal_Guerilla Donating Member (2101 posts) Click to EMail Liberal_Guerilla Click to send private message to Liberal_Guerilla Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 05:07 PM (ET)
Reply to post #55
59. Good point, but...
i think that we would lose three times as many votes if we swung far left. And this is coming from someone who is far left, but politically realistic.

John Edwards for President.

http://www.johnedwards2004.com/

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camero (406 posts) Click to EMail camero Click to send private message to camero Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 05:09 PM (ET)
Reply to post #59
60. I think it is so sad
that people care more about money than their own freedom.
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noiretblu Donating Member (3985 posts) Click to EMail noiretblu Click to send private message to noiretblu Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 06:37 PM (ET)
Reply to post #59
67. 3x as many...you think?
i'm not so sure...how many democrats voted for bush? and how many in traditional democratic constituencies voted republican in 2000 and 2002? the DLC is dead-wrong on this issue...it's the traditional base democrats need to energize again. courting the center is a sure-fire recipe for a loss in 2004.



Northern California Chapter

In politics nothing happens by accident. If it happened, you can bet it was planned that way.
Franklin Delano Roosevelt


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Cocoa Donating Member (1616 posts) Click to EMail Cocoa Click to send private message to Cocoa Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 01:32 PM (ET)
38. Like a stealth liberal?
Dick Durbin might be such a candidate in the future. Pretty solid liberal voting record -- voted against Iraq resolution, for example -- and yet is not perceived or labelled as a liberal.

Someone like Wellstone I think could win in the right circumstances, like if the GOP candidate was damaged enough or if there was a third party splitting the Republican vote or something like that. The problem might be the primaries though.

He may look like an idiot, and talk like an idiot, but don't let that fool you. He really is idiot.
- Rufus T. Firefly

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skewthat (98 posts) Click to EMail skewthat Click to send private message to skewthat Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 02:43 PM (ET)
45. Stealth liberal all the way
It's just a popularity contest.
just run the most attractive lookin liberal tell him to not mention any hardcore liberal ideas just alot of nice fluffy stuff and then once he's in office wham!
straight from karl rove's playbook.


Skewthat

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cryingshame Donating Member (919 posts) Click to EMail cryingshame Click to send private message to cryingshame Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 03:12 PM (ET)
48. Definately- With The Right Packaging
And marketing. Since winning depends on how the public PERCIEVES a candidate and their message as well as the actual message itself.

Marketing is NOT necessarily LIEING. It is however, definately mind control. Eery candidate engages in it, but the winner is more successful at it.

Let's take school vouchers.

Initial Public Opinion- Believe in public education paid for by tax dollars.

Initial Public Perception- School Vouchers are undesirable.

GOP Marketing Strategy for Vouchers- Call them "pro-choice". Hail them as antidote to failing schools which are failing because the GOP has chronically underfunded them will cutting taxes at same time.

Democratic Strategy for Vouchers Should Now Be- Call them attempts at "Privatization" and "Enronizing Public Education".

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bpilgrim Donating Member (7566 posts) Click to EMail bpilgrim Click to send private message to bpilgrim Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 03:52 PM (ET)
52. Could a "HARD RIGHT" conservative canidate win?
LAST EDITED ON Jan-08-03 AT 03:52 PM (ET)

they seem to just get worse and worse to me

if THEY can do it why can't WE?

peace
--

"The only true wisdom consists in knowing that you know nothing" Socrates

Send an email blast to the media today!
http://globalfreepress.com/media_blast.pl

also check out a REAL free press...
http://globalfreepress.com

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ButterflyBlood Donating Member (660 posts) Click to EMail ButterflyBlood Click to send private message to ButterflyBlood Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 04:35 PM (ET)
54. Yes
Hard left candidates appeal more to moderates than hard right. I can't see a moderate being very comfortable voting for Tom DeLay, but my mom says she would've voted for Wellstone no problem.

I also believe Wellstone could've run had he ran.

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mlawson Donating Member (3370 posts) Click to EMail mlawson Click to send private message to mlawson Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 06:53 PM (ET)
69. Repooks get away with hard right, because the voters
mostly do not know what the term means, thanks to the media whores. If anything, they probably think hard right means 'patriotic', or 'Christian' (in the benign sense). They associate the term with Ronnie, who OF COURSE never did any harm to any one or any group while in office.

But the 'hard left', they associate with letting criminals go free, taxes, busing, all the things the media have pounded into their heads for decades.

Could a hard left person get elected?? Only if he or she were intensely likable; i.e., a suit of teflon several feet thick!!

2004: Winning is everything; nought else matters.

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stevebreeze (200 posts) Click to EMail stevebreeze Click to send private message to stevebreeze Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Jan-08-03, 06:55 PM (ET)
70. social lib yes economic lib no
Anyone with a sense that working people are entitled to a share of economic growth will get precious little funding for a presidential candidacy. We can have someone run and loose in the primary, but under current campaign finance rules it is unlikely most would ever hear the message of a lib in a crowed primary.
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