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"Huge explosion hits front lines north of Kabul (1,000 ft mushroom cloud)"

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ender (917 posts) Click to EMail ender Click to send private message to ender Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 09:29 AM (ET)
"Huge explosion hits front lines north of Kabul (1,000 ft mushroom cloud)"
http://www.abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20011030_266.html

---snip---
JABAL SARAJ, Afghanistan (AP) A huge explosion hit the Bagram front lines about 25 miles north of Kabul on Tuesday, sending up a mushroom cloud that billowed at least 1,000 feet into the air.
---end of snip---

ummm... does anyone know of any non-nuclear devices that would cause that?

please?

Hi Bingo

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  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 Either something blew up accidentally, like a arsenal, or... rocknation Oct-30-01 1
 Oh shit radfringe Oct-30-01 2
   Arent we number one yet? 2muchbs 10/30/2001 60
   some pics would be helpful, 2muchbs 10/30/2001 61
 Freepers think - fuel air device ender Oct-30-01 3
   Dresden.. coralsea 10/30/2001 6
       Give me a break... Illuminatus 10/30/2001 24
           Please review my original post on-topic... coralsea 10/30/2001 26
               Consider it reviewed, found wanting Illuminatus 10/30/2001 41
   Here is a brief summary of this type of weapon... bsiebs 10/30/2001 7
   Fuel air bombs are bad news WilliamPitt 10/30/2001 11
       still better than the BIG one, though.. ender 10/30/2001 12
   Freeps actualy right aboiut something!!! neverending 10/30/2001 44
 no NNN0LHI Oct-30-01 4
 Could Be a 15,000-pound Blockbuster Bomb DemoTex Oct-30-01 5
   ahhh! San Miguel.... coralsea 10/30/2001 9
       Coralsea ... DemoTex 10/30/2001 16
           No, it's San Miguel... coralsea 10/30/2001 19
               Oh my god ... 'Po City DemoTex 10/30/2001 22
                   Actually.... coralsea 10/30/2001 23
           Didn't Douglas MacArthur Jackpine Radical 10/30/2001 36
   Wow, I was going to tell a story almost identical to that Jackpine Radical 10/30/2001 34
       Jackpine ... DemoTex 10/30/2001 37
           Do you really think... coralsea 10/30/2001 38
               Just an uneducated WAG DemoTex 10/30/2001 39
           Hi DT Tranceformer 10/30/2001 48
 Fuel Air Bomb like a JCMach1 Oct-30-01 8
 Any explosion could create a mushroom cloud Lurking Dem Oct-30-01 10
 Question for you Veterans Thtwudbeme Oct-30-01 13
   I'm not sure I understand the question ... DemoTex 10/30/2001 18
       Demo Thtwudbeme 10/30/2001 28
           No, cluster bombs are anti-personnel in nature. DemoTex 10/30/2001 30
               Geneva Convention.. absynthe 10/30/2001 40
                   Then there was the Geneva Agreements of 1954 ... DemoTex 10/30/2001 42
                       demotex AlecBGreen 10/30/2001 63
           Oh, not at all... coralsea 10/30/2001 31
               Coralsea DemoTex 10/30/2001 33
                   I generally sing baritone... coralsea 10/30/2001 35
               Another silly comparison Illuminatus 10/30/2001 43
                   Illumanitus: coralsea 10/30/2001 45
   My recollection RobertSeattle 10/30/2001 25
       In the 'Nam DemoTex 10/30/2001 29
 sounds like a daisy-cutter... absynthe Oct-30-01 14
   defoliation.... coralsea 10/30/2001 15
   Daisey-Cutters DemoTex 10/30/2001 20
 Mushroom clouds jjsocrates Oct-30-01 17
   I don't know where I heard it.... revcarol 10/30/2001 21
       Directed Fire into it? What did they have, a timer? rocknation 10/30/2001 27
           Artillery? DemoTex 10/30/2001 32
 Just seen the explosion tape on CNN NNN0LHI Oct-30-01 46
   I'm not sure, but... CollegeDude 10/30/2001 47
   I saw it also.... Puking Dog 10/30/2001 49
 Fuel Air Bladder blackdog Oct-30-01 50
 Daisy Cutter Picture JCMach1 Oct-30-01 51
   Picture GBU-28: Bunker Buster JCMach1 10/30/2001 52
 What ever it was, it looks as though the surgical strike strategy... NNN0LHI Oct-30-01 53
   No necessarily, we used Bunker Busters JCMach1 10/30/2001 54
       I had the same thought... absynthe 10/30/2001 55
           CONGRATS ON 600! JCMach1 10/30/2001 56
               hah absynthe 10/30/2001 58
 Daisy Cutter Deployment Sequence - 'Nam Pictures DemoTex Oct-30-01 57
 Several points..... Saintgermane Oct-30-01 59
 Giant Bomb dropped on Taliban rmpalmer Oct-30-01 62
   I saw it on newyawker99 10/30/2001 64

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rocknation (308 posts) Click to EMail rocknation Click to send private message to rocknation Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 09:33 AM (ET)
1. "Either something blew up accidentally, like a arsenal, or..."
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radfringe (897 posts) Click to EMail radfringe Click to send private message to radfringe Click to view user profile Click to send message via ICQ Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 09:34 AM (ET)
2. "Oh shit"
don't know of anything non-nuclear that would send up a mushroom cloud...

nothing on CNN about it - yet

If it was a nuke and ours - that's it for the international coalition to fight terrorism, we'll be on 10 most wanted lists





"...all Americans need to watch what they say, watch what they do, and this is not a time for remarks like that; there never is." Ari Fleischer, Bush Press Secretary

``We'll get him,'' he said defiantly into TV cameras. Then he mumbled beneath his breath, ``I hope.'' 10/25/01, Tom Ridge - OHS

"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors". - PLATO

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2muchbs (136 posts) Click to EMail 2muchbs Click to send private message to 2muchbs Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 06:51 PM (ET)
60. "Arent we number one yet?"
damn i thought we were number one on that list. mabye soon though huh?
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2muchbs (136 posts) Click to EMail 2muchbs Click to send private message to 2muchbs Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 07:02 PM (ET)
61. "some pics would be helpful,"
The color of the cloud and possible incandescent carbon particles
(ie orange flame) could tell us pretty quickly what it realy was. Or if someone could check for radiation levels, it would be dangerous to check though. What fun!!! everybody still like thier war?
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ender (917 posts) Click to EMail ender Click to send private message to ender Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 09:35 AM (ET)
3. "Freepers think - fuel air device"
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/559632/posts

fueld air device would make me feel a whole lot better...

Hi Bingo

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coralsea (1310 posts) Click to EMail coralsea Click to send private message to coralsea Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 09:44 AM (ET)
6. "Dresden.."
Are you familiar with the Dresden firebombing, done over a period of several nights in early 1945, by US and British bombers??

An utterly horrific act which, in many respects, surpassed the Hiroshima & Nagasaki a-bombings in its terrible destruction..

The 'fuel' bomb mentioned is of this nature...

----------------------------------------

Today's GOP: Busy building that Bridge to the 16th Century.


"Liberals are fearless, confident of humanity, outgoing and optimistic,
because they believe most people are pretty much like themselves.

Conservatives are fearful, mistrusting, angry, bitter and afraid because they, too, believe most people are pretty much like themselves."

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Illuminatus (368 posts) Click to EMail Illuminatus Click to send private message to Illuminatus Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 10:42 AM (ET)
24. "Give me a break..."
Any conventional bomb is just like any other. Someare just bigger. It's not nuclear, so there's no fallout or long term environmental/health damage (even though this bomb, and other "Daisy Cutter" munitions are actually more powerful than the smallest nuclear munitions in the US arsenal).

Comparing an FAE to the Dresden bombing is pointless. This bomb is not going to kill 100,000 people. Even if it were dropped in the middle of Kabul it wouldn't kill a fraction of that many. Moreover, the FAE is not an incendiary device like napalm or the munitions used at Dresden or the fire-bombing of Tokyo so the comparison is doubly pointless. Those bombs were designed to start fires using a thick jellied gasoline or napalm mixture to burn the mostly-wood cities. FEAs, while using fuel as an igniter, are designed to cause blast and pressure damage - setting things on fire is merely a useful benefit (and quite difficult because the explosion sucks all the oxygen out of the vicinity).

Fnord!

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coralsea (1310 posts) Click to EMail coralsea Click to send private message to coralsea Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 10:47 AM (ET)
26. "Please review my original post on-topic..."
I wasn't comparing the two;
I was merely pointing out a case in point in which the device has previously been used -- and the weapon's potential.

I'd have thought that the reference to joint US/Brit air forces & several nights' bombing campaign was sufficient for the average reader to make the mental leap and not presume that I was comparing the two vis-a-vis the relative degree of horror and destruction...

----------------------------------------

Today's GOP: Busy building that Bridge to the 16th Century.


"Liberals are fearless, confident of humanity, outgoing and optimistic,
because they believe most people are pretty much like themselves.

Conservatives are fearful, mistrusting, angry, bitter and afraid because they, too, believe most people are pretty much like themselves."

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Illuminatus (368 posts) Click to EMail Illuminatus Click to send private message to Illuminatus Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 12:12 PM (ET)
41. "Consider it reviewed, found wanting"
The fuel bomb mentioned is of this nature...

and more recently

I wasn't comparing the two;
I was merely pointing out a case in point in which the device has previously been used -- and the weapon's potential.

That sounds like a comparison to me. And it's still wrong.

The "device" - a FAE - was NOT used at Dresden. FAEs are of more recent invention. Munitions dropped on Dresden, Tokyo, London, and in other fire-boming attacks were "incendiary" bombs, filled with a napalm-like substance designed to start fires among the wood structures of the older cities. The bombs were typically small (500-1000 lbs) so as to start many smaller fires.

An FAE, by contrast is a huge munition. It releases an aerosolized fuel vapor and ignites it to create a crushing blast. While both incendiary bombs and FAEs use some flammable petrochemical, the design and usage of the bombs vary considerably. FAEs are not intended to start fires. They are much larger blast and pressure weapons. They are used against hardened targets or open-field troops, not against civilian structures. It's potential for starting fires in a city is much lower than for incendiary devices of equivalent weight because of way it releases and ignites it's fuel.

Your attempt to link the use of FAEs to the horrific fire-bombing of Dresden is inapposite.

Fnord!

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bsiebs (50 posts) Click to EMail bsiebs Click to send private message to bsiebs Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 09:44 AM (ET)
7. "Here is a brief summary of this type of weapon..."
Fuel Air Explosion link...

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/cbu-72.htm

Perhaps it was being used to see if it would be effective to clear a minefield...that is one of the purposes for this weapon (in addition to scaring the crap out of everyone).

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WilliamPitt (3447 posts) Click to EMail WilliamPitt Click to send private message to WilliamPitt Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 09:58 AM (ET)
11. "Fuel air bombs are bad news"
Everything not burned or shattered is deprived of oxygen. Think napalm x100.

"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith. Like medicine, the test of its value is not in its taste, but its effects." - J. William Fulbright

READ THIS: http://www.usccr.gov/vote2000/stdraft1/main.htm

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ender (917 posts) Click to EMail ender Click to send private message to ender Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 10:00 AM (ET)
12. "still better than the BIG one, though.."
and they're great for concentrations of troops.

Hi Bingo

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neverending (136 posts) Click to EMail neverending Click to send private message to neverending Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 12:57 PM (ET)
44. "Freeps actualy right aboiut something!!!"
The Freeps are probably correct. A FAE bomb can make a BIG bang. During the Gulf War British forward observers in Iraq thought that someone had gone nuclear when we used one of those things.
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NNN0LHI (299 posts) Click to EMail NNN0LHI Click to send private message to NNN0LHI Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 09:35 AM (ET)
4. "no"
Don
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DemoTex (390 posts) Click to EMail DemoTex Click to send private message to DemoTex Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 09:44 AM (ET)
5. "Could Be a 15,000-pound Blockbuster Bomb "
I was in Cam Rahn Bay the night in 1971 when the VC got the ammo dump on the south side of the airfield. Over a period of about six hours 26 "Blockbuster" bombs exploded. When the first one blew, I was sitting cross-legged on top of a bunker -- drinking a cold San Miguel --two miles away. The mushroom cloud grew to several thousand feet and we could actually see the shock wave coming. The shock wave knocked me flat on my back. Needless to say, we scrambled into the bunker. We thought it was tactical nukes being detonated. Drank a lot more beer! It ended up being the big Blockbuster bombs (aslo called "Daisy-Cutters," if I remember correctly).

"This is an administration that will let its special interests — particularly its high-rolling campaign contributors and its noisiest theocrats of the right — have veto power over public safety, public health and economic prudence in war, it turns out, no less than in peacetime..." Frank Rich NYT 10/27/01

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coralsea (1310 posts) Click to EMail coralsea Click to send private message to coralsea Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 09:46 AM (ET)
9. "ahhh! San Miguel...."
The authentic brew, that is -- replete with formaldehyde..

Many memories this Westpac sailor has of quaffing my fair share of that amber-bottled honey...

----------------------------------------

Today's GOP: Busy building that Bridge to the 16th Century.


"Liberals are fearless, confident of humanity, outgoing and optimistic,
because they believe most people are pretty much like themselves.

Conservatives are fearful, mistrusting, angry, bitter and afraid because they, too, believe most people are pretty much like themselves."

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DemoTex (390 posts) Click to EMail DemoTex Click to send private message to DemoTex Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 10:11 AM (ET)
16. "Coralsea ..."
I think you are thinking about the vile Vietnamese Beer "Ba Muoi Ba - 33" with the high formaldehyde content. I got deathly ill on "Ba Muoi Ba" in Nha Trang one night. San Miguel was very hard to get in the 'Nam. We used to load the bomb-bay with cases of San Miguel at the Cubi Point NAS (Philipines) for our bar at Cam Rahn Bay, Vietnam.

"This is an administration that will let its special interests — particularly its high-rolling campaign contributors and its noisiest theocrats of the right — have veto power over public safety, public health and economic prudence in war, it turns out, no less than in peacetime..." Frank Rich NYT 10/27/01

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coralsea (1310 posts) Click to EMail coralsea Click to send private message to coralsea Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 10:18 AM (ET)
19. "No, it's San Miguel..."
that I'm recollecting...

I spent alot of time at Subic -- I believe there's a memorial to my liver off Magsaysay Drive in Olongopo...

Seem to recall drinking San Magoo in Hong Kong as well...

----------------------------------------

Today's GOP: Busy building that Bridge to the 16th Century.


"Liberals are fearless, confident of humanity, outgoing and optimistic,
because they believe most people are pretty much like themselves.

Conservatives are fearful, mistrusting, angry, bitter and afraid because they, too, believe most people are pretty much like themselves."

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DemoTex (390 posts) Click to EMail DemoTex Click to send private message to DemoTex Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 10:31 AM (ET)
22. "Oh my god ... 'Po City"
Too bad we can't tell the tales of THAT place on this fine forum. Suffice it to say that if there was a more debauched, sleazy, sinful -- did I say 'fun', yet? -- place on earth, I never found it. And I'm sure you are right about San Miguel's formaldehyde content, but I do think "Ba Muoi Ba's" was much closer to clinically toxic levels.


"This is an administration that will let its special interests — particularly its high-rolling campaign contributors and its noisiest theocrats of the right — have veto power over public safety, public health and economic prudence in war, it turns out, no less than in peacetime..." Frank Rich NYT 10/27/01

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coralsea (1310 posts) Click to EMail coralsea Click to send private message to coralsea Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 10:41 AM (ET)
23. "Actually...."

I found a close runner-up to 'Po..

Phattaya Beach, Thailand.

My carrier pulled in there just in time for New Years -- after having spent more than 100 days in the Indian Ocean..

From what I understand, it took nearly a year to rebuild the town after we left....


----------------------------------------

Today's GOP: Busy building that Bridge to the 16th Century.


"Liberals are fearless, confident of humanity, outgoing and optimistic,
because they believe most people are pretty much like themselves.

Conservatives are fearful, mistrusting, angry, bitter and afraid because they, too, believe most people are pretty much like themselves."

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Jackpine Radical (248 posts) Click to EMail Jackpine%20Radical Click to send private message to Jackpine%20Radical Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 11:32 AM (ET)
36. "Didn't Douglas MacArthur"
own the San Miguel brewery?
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Jackpine Radical (248 posts) Click to EMail Jackpine%20Radical Click to send private message to Jackpine%20Radical Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 11:30 AM (ET)
34. "Wow, I was going to tell a story almost identical to that"
except that it was at the First Cav basecamp near the DMZ in 1968, and what blew was a 50,000 gallon tank of aviation fuel. HUGE boom,mushroom cloud, etc. The NVA had hit our ammo dump with a 122 mm rocket and all sorts of stuff was cooking off down there. I was sitting on a bunker maybe 2 miles away watching the fireworks when this big one blew. Mushroom cloud & everything. It was common knowledge that a nuclear round existed that could be fired by an 8" artillery piece, and as I rolled backwards off the sandbags I figured my face was cooked by radiation and would probably fall off. I remember thinking "Those bastards had an 8" nuke in there!" Thank the Gods and Goddesses, I was wrong.

Wonder what the hell this thing in Afghanistan was, though.

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DemoTex (390 posts) Click to EMail DemoTex Click to send private message to DemoTex Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 11:43 AM (ET)
37. "Jackpine ..."
That was my exact thought, too: "These bastards have tactical nukes over here. We are fucked!" Were you watching those fireworks in any altered state of mind? It sure made the white colors whiter and the bright colors brighter. Lessened the sense of impending doom, too.

The Afgan thing could be a big secondary explosion from a strike or something on the order of a 15,000 pounder. Hell! It could be a tactical nuke, but I would expect a mushroom cloud to 30,000 feet or so with that.

"This is an administration that will let its special interests — particularly its high-rolling campaign contributors and its noisiest theocrats of the right — have veto power over public safety, public health and economic prudence in war, it turns out, no less than in peacetime..." Frank Rich NYT 10/27/01

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coralsea (1310 posts) Click to EMail coralsea Click to send private message to coralsea Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 11:49 AM (ET)
38. "Do you really think..."
that a tactical nuke would be capable of engendering such a blastcloud??

I was thinking that such a device (a relatively small one at 1k-2k) - likely affixed to a deep-embedding mechanism - would probably not be able to have energy sufficient to create such a cloud...

But -he readily admits- what the hell do I know??

----------------------------------------

Today's GOP: Busy building that Bridge to the 16th Century.


"Liberals are fearless, confident of humanity, outgoing and optimistic,
because they believe most people are pretty much like themselves.

Conservatives are fearful, mistrusting, angry, bitter and afraid because they, too, believe most people are pretty much like themselves."

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DemoTex (390 posts) Click to EMail DemoTex Click to send private message to DemoTex Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 11:50 AM (ET)
39. "Just an uneducated WAG"
Wild-Assed Guess

"This is an administration that will let its special interests — particularly its high-rolling campaign contributors and its noisiest theocrats of the right — have veto power over public safety, public health and economic prudence in war, it turns out, no less than in peacetime..." Frank Rich NYT 10/27/01

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Tranceformer (155 posts) Click to EMail Tranceformer Click to send private message to Tranceformer Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 02:11 PM (ET)
48. "Hi DT"
Re: Altered state--whatever do you mean?

Beer, probably. If I recall correctly, at that time we were in the Khe Sanh buildup and didn't have much access to local suppliers of anything more congenial. Because of the impending Khe Sanh thing, we had lots of extra ammo & fuel on hand for the fireworks show. But I know what you mean--war visuals are quite a trip under the right chemical conditions. Tracers, Puff cascades, etc. On Tet '68 I was pulling guard duty on a little LZ in the Central Highlands where I was in a chemically enhanced state watching fireworks in the villages down the mountainside & saw 4 fireworks displays turn into firefights with little skyrockets giving way to red (our) and white (their) tracers, and eventually artillery strikes & 1 ARA assault.

I have no idea what it would take to create a mushroom cloud, but certainly a "small one or two kiloton" device should do it. Kiloton=1000 tons=2,000,000 pounds of TNT. Sure puts my measly 50k gallons of Huey juice to shame.

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JCMach1 (920 posts) Click to EMail JCMach1 Click to send private message to JCMach1 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 09:45 AM (ET)
8. "Fuel Air Bomb like a "
Daisy Cutter would do it!

**************************************************

"All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptible. And corruption wears infinite disguises. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a condition to which they are quickly addicted."

-Frank Herbert

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Lurking Dem (318 posts) Click to EMail Lurking%20Dem Click to send private message to Lurking%20Dem Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 09:56 AM (ET)
10. "Any explosion could create a mushroom cloud"
if the explosion is big enough. If, for instance, they hit a missile silo or munitions factory or something. I once saw a mushroom cloud (small one) form from an exploding fireworks factory.

If I weren't heavily medicated I'd be REALLY pissed!

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Thtwudbeme (645 posts) Click to EMail Thtwudbeme Click to send private message to Thtwudbeme Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 10:03 AM (ET)
13. "Question for you Veterans"
Is it possible that it is one of our cluster bombs that looks like a food package?

What are the chances?

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DemoTex (390 posts) Click to EMail DemoTex Click to send private message to DemoTex Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 10:16 AM (ET)
18. "I'm not sure I understand the question ..."
Thtwudbeme, are you asking if it is possible that we disguise a bomb to look like a food package or if this explosion could have been due to a disguised cluster bomb?

"This is an administration that will let its special interests — particularly its high-rolling campaign contributors and its noisiest theocrats of the right — have veto power over public safety, public health and economic prudence in war, it turns out, no less than in peacetime..." Frank Rich NYT 10/27/01

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Thtwudbeme (645 posts) Click to EMail Thtwudbeme Click to send private message to Thtwudbeme Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 10:51 AM (ET)
28. "Demo"
LAST EDITED ON Oct-30-01 AT 10:52 AM (ET)

no, I was referring to an earlier report that we were issuing warnings in Afghanistan that the cluster bombs and food packages were both yellow.

I don't think that was intentional; just a typical government screw-up that wasn't caught in time.

I was asking if cluster bombs were strong enough to cause that kind of mushroom cloud.

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DemoTex (390 posts) Click to EMail DemoTex Click to send private message to DemoTex Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 11:07 AM (ET)
30. "No, cluster bombs are anti-personnel in nature."
Cluster bombs are meant to cause injury and damage to soldiers and equipment encountering the individual "bomblets" -- for lack of a better term.
The Geneva Convention (which I have always thought of as a joke) would, in my opinion, prevent disguising bombs, mines, booby-traps or the like as food, toys, etc.. But yes, bureaucratic fuck-ups could easily overlook obvious -- and lethal -- similarities in "package" appearances.

"This is an administration that will let its special interests — particularly its high-rolling campaign contributors and its noisiest theocrats of the right — have veto power over public safety, public health and economic prudence in war, it turns out, no less than in peacetime..." Frank Rich NYT 10/27/01

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absynthe (607 posts) Click to EMail absynthe Click to send private message to absynthe Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 11:59 AM (ET)
40. "Geneva Convention.."
Actually it worked pretty well when we used it. We treated the German POW's from WWI so well that fathers would tell their sons when they went to war "Keep your head down and surrender to the first American you find."
Contrast that to the German unit that slaughtered the Canadian POW's rather than trying to send them back. They were marked, everyone on the allied side knew who they were and they came under absolutely viscious attack. Almost none of them survived.
There are strategic reasons to fight a clean fight.

"The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism — ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power."
-FDR

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DemoTex (390 posts) Click to EMail DemoTex Click to send private message to DemoTex Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 12:15 PM (ET)
42. "Then there was the Geneva Agreements of 1954 ..."
which partitioned Vietnam pending, per Article 14a., "general elections which will bring about the unification of Vietnam ..." and which -- along with previous Geneva Conventions -- putatively, governed our conduct in that war. Our military-industrial complex made damn sure the free elections did not happen and McNamara/Kissinger made a mockery of those aspects of Geneva which should have kept us out of Laos and Cambodia. The US government's interpretation of the Geneva Convention in the Vietnam years seemed to be "do as I say. not as I do."

"This is an administration that will let its special interests — particularly its high-rolling campaign contributors and its noisiest theocrats of the right — have veto power over public safety, public health and economic prudence in war, it turns out, no less than in peacetime..." Frank Rich NYT 10/27/01

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AlecBGreen (60 posts) Click to EMail AlecBGreen Click to send private message to AlecBGreen Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 07:52 PM (ET)
63. "demotex"
"do as i say. not as i do" The Right Wing mantra they say before they climb into their coffins each night!

-alec

"When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants, and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall. Think of it...always." ~Mahatma Ghandi

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coralsea (1310 posts) Click to EMail coralsea Click to send private message to coralsea Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 11:09 AM (ET)
31. "Oh, not at all..."
Cluster bombs are comparable to anti-personnel mines. They throw off a localized wall of shrapnell when detonated; devastating upon the human flesh, but not very "explosive" - as regards giving off any kind of a 'cloud'...

Collectively also referred to as 'bomblets'.

My, but our military can be cute about these things, eh??


----------------------------------------

Today's GOP: Busy building that Bridge to the 16th Century.


"Liberals are fearless, confident of humanity, outgoing and optimistic,
because they believe most people are pretty much like themselves.

Conservatives are fearful, mistrusting, angry, bitter and afraid because they, too, believe most people are pretty much like themselves."

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DemoTex (390 posts) Click to EMail DemoTex Click to send private message to DemoTex Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 11:22 AM (ET)
33. "Coralsea"
We are singing in unison on this topic! Reminds me of the old military hymn: "Hymn, hymn ... f*ck him."

"This is an administration that will let its special interests — particularly its high-rolling campaign contributors and its noisiest theocrats of the right — have veto power over public safety, public health and economic prudence in war, it turns out, no less than in peacetime..." Frank Rich NYT 10/27/01

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coralsea (1310 posts) Click to EMail coralsea Click to send private message to coralsea Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 11:31 AM (ET)
35. "I generally sing baritone..."
Except when drinking, then I usually sing loud and obnoxious..

----------------------------------------

Today's GOP: Busy building that Bridge to the 16th Century.


"Liberals are fearless, confident of humanity, outgoing and optimistic,
because they believe most people are pretty much like themselves.

Conservatives are fearful, mistrusting, angry, bitter and afraid because they, too, believe most people are pretty much like themselves."

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Illuminatus (368 posts) Click to EMail Illuminatus Click to send private message to Illuminatus Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 12:25 PM (ET)
43. "Another silly comparison"
Cluster bombs are comparable to anti-personnel mines. They throw off a localized wall of shrapnell when detonated; devastating upon the human flesh, but not very "explosive" - as regards giving off any kind of a 'cloud'...

Well, they're made of metal and high-explosives, but the similarities end there. I suppose you could make a similar comparison between a dishwasher and a drill-press, and it would be about as informative.

Cluster munitions can be used as anti-personnel devices, where the small bomblets release lots of shrapnel. By dividing the explosive 'package' into lots of smaller explosions as opposed to one large one, you can cover more ground (and more of the enemy). Cluster munitions are also used against dispersed, relatively weak targets, like airfields, parked aircraft, thin-skinned sheds or buildings, and anything else where accuracy is more important than penetrating power. They are the Air Force's equivalent of a shotgun.

While it is true that cluster munitions can be used to deliver landmines or time-delay fused sub-munitions, those are not in use here (or, to my knowledge, were they widely used in Desert Storm). Of course, almost any delivery system can deliver landmines - artillery is one example. The danger to children or other non-combatants is from the unexploded ordnance - the duds which failed to fire.

But unexploded ordnance is a consequence of all miitary action - "dumb" bombs, hand grenades, landmines, cluster munitions, artillery shells, etc can all malfunction and remain on the ground long after the battle is over. To suggest that somehow unexploded, malfunctioned, cluster munitions are MORE deadly than unexploded hand grenades or smart bombs is silly - they are no more dangerous. And they are substantially less dangerous than landmines, which are designed to sit disguised and unexploded for years and then kill or maim.

Fnord!

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coralsea (1310 posts) Click to EMail coralsea Click to send private message to coralsea Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 01:03 PM (ET)
45. "Illumanitus:"
LAST EDITED ON Oct-30-01 AT 01:04 PM (ET)

Please enable your DU inbox.

Thank you.

On edit, make that: Illuminatus

----------------------------------------

Today's GOP: Busy building that Bridge to the 16th Century.


"Liberals are fearless, confident of humanity, outgoing and optimistic,
because they believe most people are pretty much like themselves.

Conservatives are fearful, mistrusting, angry, bitter and afraid because they, too, believe most people are pretty much like themselves."

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RobertSeattle (35 posts) Click to EMail RobertSeattle Click to send private message to RobertSeattle Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 10:44 AM (ET)
25. "My recollection"
I was in the Gulf War and if I recall unexploded cluser bomblets were about the size and shape of a baseball and had a bronze color. (It's no surprise they are enticing to children). Combat Engineers neutralized them by putting a small explosive a few inches from the bomblet (without touch it) and then set a time fuse to go off after getting a safe distance away. When the explosive went of it either caused the bomblet to go off and/or destroyed the bomblet in the blast.

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DemoTex (390 posts) Click to EMail DemoTex Click to send private message to DemoTex Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 10:58 AM (ET)
29. "In the 'Nam"
I used to hear the fighters calling their ordinance loads to the FACs (forward air controllers). "Snake" was HE (high explosive - conventional bombs), "nape" was napalm, and "gravel" was cluster bombs. It was my understanding that "gravel" dropped on the Ho Chi Minh trail, for example, would go unnoticed until a NVA soldier stepped on it and blew his legs off. Or until a Laotian child -- in 2001 -- has the misfortune of encountering "gravel." Personally, I never figured out how either napalm or gravel passed the requirements of the Geneva Convention. Disguising your ordinance as food packages would certainly be against all standing rules of warfare.

"This is an administration that will let its special interests — particularly its high-rolling campaign contributors and its noisiest theocrats of the right — have veto power over public safety, public health and economic prudence in war, it turns out, no less than in peacetime..." Frank Rich NYT 10/27/01

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absynthe (607 posts) Click to EMail absynthe Click to send private message to absynthe Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 10:04 AM (ET)
14. "sounds like a daisy-cutter..."
They were supposed to be used for defoliation but...hey whatever...

"The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism — ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power."
-FDR

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coralsea (1310 posts) Click to EMail coralsea Click to send private message to coralsea Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 10:10 AM (ET)
15. "defoliation...."
or exfoliation...
(think the world's biggest zit..)

Sorry....
I've got a teenager in the house... you know what my priorities are..

----------------------------------------

Today's GOP: Busy building that Bridge to the 16th Century.


"Liberals are fearless, confident of humanity, outgoing and optimistic,
because they believe most people are pretty much like themselves.

Conservatives are fearful, mistrusting, angry, bitter and afraid because they, too, believe most people are pretty much like themselves."

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DemoTex (390 posts) Click to EMail DemoTex Click to send private message to DemoTex Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 10:22 AM (ET)
20. "Daisey-Cutters"
In Vietnam, Daisey Cutter bombs were pushed out off the back ramp of C-130s over vegetated areas (i.e., jungle) to clear landing zones for helicopters. The bombs were fused to explode just below tree top level and, very efficiently, clear a pad large enough for one UH-1 Huey.

"This is an administration that will let its special interests — particularly its high-rolling campaign contributors and its noisiest theocrats of the right — have veto power over public safety, public health and economic prudence in war, it turns out, no less than in peacetime..." Frank Rich NYT 10/27/01

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jjsocrates (238 posts) Click to EMail jjsocrates Click to send private message to jjsocrates Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 10:15 AM (ET)
17. "Mushroom clouds"
Mushroom clouds are not exclusive to nuclear blasts.

Mushroom clouds are caused by the sudden vaccuum that occurs from any large explosion, and the resulting implosion that occurs when that vaccuum is suddenly refilled. A nuclear blast creates a mushroom cloud because of the size of the explosion, but really, any large explosion can cause a mushroom cloud.

The explosion creates a huge void, a vaccuum, as all air is blown out of the area. After the explosion, the vacuum is quickly filled back up, and an implosion occurs as everything rushes back to fill the vaccuum. When all that debris meets back in the original location of the explosion it is forced upwards, since it can't go downwards.

I could go on but what's the use? You can't fight them with songs. But think of this as just another tiny blow against the Empire" ~ Joe Jackson

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revcarol (1489 posts) Click to EMail revcarol Click to send private message to revcarol Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 10:22 AM (ET)
21. "I don't know where I heard it...."
but heard one of our Special Forces or SAS located this ammunition storage for the Taliban and directed fire into it.
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rocknation (308 posts) Click to EMail rocknation Click to send private message to rocknation Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 10:48 AM (ET)
27. "Directed Fire into it? What did they have, a timer?"
There were no planes overhead, so it must have been ground troops. And if that was the correct target, there must have been British ground troops!
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DemoTex (390 posts) Click to EMail DemoTex Click to send private message to DemoTex Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 11:12 AM (ET)
32. "Artillery?"
Does the Northern Alliance have artillery? Close to Kabul? The term "directed fire" is arty-speak. As in, "Right twenty, drop twenty, fire for effect!"

"This is an administration that will let its special interests — particularly its high-rolling campaign contributors and its noisiest theocrats of the right — have veto power over public safety, public health and economic prudence in war, it turns out, no less than in peacetime..." Frank Rich NYT 10/27/01

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NNN0LHI (299 posts) Click to EMail NNN0LHI Click to send private message to NNN0LHI Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 01:33 PM (ET)
46. "Just seen the explosion tape on CNN"
Can a non nuclear explosion cause the plasma burst like I just seen? Reminded me of a night shot from the Trinity test. Just freakin curious.

Don

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CollegeDude (225 posts) Click to EMail CollegeDude Click to send private message to CollegeDude Click to view user profile Click to send message via ICQ Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 01:37 PM (ET)
47. "I'm not sure, but..."
I think the key to that is that it was caught on camera. I mean, if this was a nuke, we'll know from that camera crew if they got radiated.

I can't imagine the government being stupid enough to try to cover up using nukes if it was caught on film.

Oh, wait...

-CollegeDude
Always gets caught up on that one

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Puking Dog (23 posts) Click to EMail Puking%20Dog Click to send private message to Puking%20Dog Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 02:43 PM (ET)
49. "I saw it also...."
definately not a nuke...no blinding white flash....plasma burst you describe was shock wave kicking up dust....all nukes, even small ones, even neutron bombs, create a characteristic blinding white flash of light.
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blackdog (17 posts) Click to EMail blackdog Click to send private message to blackdog Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 04:28 PM (ET)
50. "Fuel Air Bladder"
It is a poor mans nuke. You take a giant gas tank, fill it with fuel, put a blasting cap inside on a timer. You drop the thing, the tank falls apart, fuel atomizes, you get the right mixture the cap goes off. What is not burned or blown up gets suffocated. The fire sucks up all the Q2 so even if you are in a bunker or a cave with an outside air supply you still die. It makes a huge mushroom cloud. When we used them in the Gulf War the Brits thought we used a nuke.

If you use more that one @ a time you can get a hell of mushroom cloud. Not a nice weapon, of course none of them are, but still better than a real nuke.

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JCMach1 (920 posts) Click to EMail JCMach1 Click to send private message to JCMach1 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 04:41 PM (ET)
51. "Daisy Cutter Picture"

Looks similar to the explosion shown on CNN.

**************************************************

"All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptible. And corruption wears infinite disguises. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a condition to which they are quickly addicted."

-Frank Herbert

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JCMach1 (920 posts) Click to EMail JCMach1 Click to send private message to JCMach1 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 04:47 PM (ET)
52. "Picture GBU-28: Bunker Buster"
Another possibility is the GBU-28 Bunker Buster seen at a fairly close distance. It is also an impressive munition.

The key is did anyone see what kind of airplane it was dropped from. Daisy cutters were traditionally dropped from C-130's.

GBU-28's can be dropped from other platforms.

**************************************************

"All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptible. And corruption wears infinite disguises. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a condition to which they are quickly addicted."

-Frank Herbert

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NNN0LHI (299 posts) Click to EMail NNN0LHI Click to send private message to NNN0LHI Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 04:48 PM (ET)
53. "What ever it was, it looks as though the surgical strike strategy..."
is out of the window.

Don

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JCMach1 (920 posts) Click to EMail JCMach1 Click to send private message to JCMach1 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 04:50 PM (ET)
54. "No necessarily, we used Bunker Busters"
mainly as PSYOPS in Kosovo. I think they are doing the same here. Dropping a few of those can reap havoc on troop morale.

**************************************************

"All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptible. And corruption wears infinite disguises. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a condition to which they are quickly addicted."

-Frank Herbert

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absynthe (607 posts) Click to EMail absynthe Click to send private message to absynthe Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 04:56 PM (ET)
55. "I had the same thought..."
I don't think Milosevic troops and Taliban are on the same wavelength though. They have seen some big time action before out of the Soviet Union. They beat that back. I don't think they are going to fold up out of fear.

As long as no one starts supplying them with arms (it's probably impossible to close the Pakistan Border). They will have to fold up eventually but probably not before then.

"The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism — ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power."
-FDR

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JCMach1 (920 posts) Click to EMail JCMach1 Click to send private message to JCMach1 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 05:03 PM (ET)
56. "CONGRATS ON 600!"


**************************************************

"All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptible. And corruption wears infinite disguises. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a condition to which they are quickly addicted."

-Frank Herbert

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absynthe (607 posts) Click to EMail absynthe Click to send private message to absynthe Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 05:28 PM (ET)
58. "hah"
Actually I didn't notice

Thanks for you noticing

"The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism — ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power."
-FDR

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DemoTex (390 posts) Click to EMail DemoTex Click to send private message to DemoTex Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 05:09 PM (ET)
57. "Daisy Cutter Deployment Sequence - 'Nam Pictures"
To follow up on JCMach1's excellent photo post, the deployment sequence is pictured at:

www.safaridave.com/pics6.shtml

Too kewel ...!

"This is an administration that will let its special interests — particularly its high-rolling campaign contributors and its noisiest theocrats of the right — have veto power over public safety, public health and economic prudence in war, it turns out, no less than in peacetime..." Frank Rich NYT 10/27/01

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Saintgermane (32 posts) Click to EMail Saintgermane Click to send private message to Saintgermane Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 06:27 PM (ET)
59. "Several points....."
...concerning munitions and effects. First of all, Vietnam was over 26 years ago...Trust me, we are way beyond C-130 dropped Daisy Cutters, which were in essence merely pallets of explosives dropped and detonated.

Cluster munitions come in a variety of flavors - not all of them are anti-personnel. There are many types of cluster munitions in the U.S. inventory, suitable for use against various types of targets, including tanks. These little jewels descend via a small parachute, have a limited abiltity to steer towards a target, and penetrate the overhead armor by means of a shaped charge.

Anti-personnel cluster munitions can be set to explode on impact, or lie unexploded until a pre-set timer causes them to explode.

They are yellow in color, and about the size of a baseball, with fins. They caused a number of friendly casualties in Irag, including a buddy of mine, who stepped on one as we were clearing an airfield.

It would be difficult to mistake them for the yellow food packet, which will be about 2" x 8" x 5" - sort of like a slightly flattened shoebox, but made of heavy duty (biodegradeable!) plastic.

However, children, aware that "yellow" means food, would be particularly vulnerable to confusion.

Finally, cluster munitions delivered specifically as either short or long duration minefields are more correctly known as FASCAM - for FAMily of SCAtterable Mines.

I know, the distinction is subtle, for all but us military types. Essentially, the choice of munitions and the duration of the latent mines or submunitions, is determined by the specific intent and type of target.

FASCAM would be used to deny an avenue of approach, cluster munitions would be used to attrit troops or vehicles, speaking very generally.

As far as the mushroom cloud goes; a mushroom is the physical effect produced by an explosion of a given size - A large enough explosion blows a vacuum in a hemispherical area (for a ground burst) that then is refilled by a returning rush of air. As the pocket of low air density collapses into the middle of the explosion (ground zero), the in-rushing air and debris is forced upward. As it achieves a certain height, the pressure is lessened, allowing the hot gasses and debris to spread horizontally, producing the characteristic mushroom shape.

In point of fact, most explosions, even very small ones, will produce a mushroom-cloud like effect, but, if there is not sufficient debris in the air mass to render the air movement visible, this effect will likely pass unnoticed.

Recall, if you will, reports of a mushrooom-like cloud over Manhattan following the collapse of the Towers - same effect, for similar reasons.

We have absolutely no need to use nukes. I sincerely doubt even bush would be stupid enough to do so, when there are other, equally effective weapons at our disposal.

Finally, on fuel-air bombs, if you have ever added lighter fluid to a hot bed of charcoal with no flames, and tossed in a match, you get a mini fuel air bomb. Illuminatus (I think it was him) gave a great description. Dynamic overpressure is the key to this weapons effectiveness.

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rmpalmer (56 posts) Click to EMail rmpalmer Click to send private message to rmpalmer Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 07:43 PM (ET)
62. "Giant Bomb dropped on Taliban"
Posted as a new thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=list_threads&om=7767&forum=DCForumID5

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newyawker99 (771 posts) Click to EMail newyawker99 Click to send private message to newyawker99 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-30-01, 09:13 PM (ET)
64. "I saw it on"
TV too....it did not look nuclear.....it was at night so the plane could not be seen. It was a big explosion and it really lit up the sky. It looked frightening.


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