"bin Laden tape on Nightline"

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lazarus (1750 posts) Dec-13-01, 11:40 PM (ET) "bin Laden tape on Nightline" let's pick it up here, folks, the other thread is waaaaay too big. "We need to understand the international implications of the President's order, which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions, without the possibility of judicial review" -- Senator Patrick Leahy, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, November 14, 2001 "This idea that you don't critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense," --Richard Shelby "We can support the troops without supporting the President.'' --Trent Lott   Alert Edit | Reply | Top

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Subject     Author     Message Date     ID    Tin Foil Hat Theories... ThorsteinVeblen Dec-14-01 1    Conspiracy theories &c Durtal 12/14/2001 2        What would this board be without drama? ThorsteinVeblen 12/14/2001 3    Wrong, Thor MiloBloom 12/14/2001 5        And if the Mountains should crumble... ThorsteinVeblen 12/14/2001 7            I hope you realize to move... MiloBloom 12/14/2001 9  In The Days Of The Digital, They Can Make A Tape Do Or farmboxer Dec-14-01 4    Farm MiloBloom 12/14/2001 6        Did we watch the same video? ThorsteinVeblen 12/14/2001 8            Of course... MiloBloom 12/14/2001 10                Everyone's a fake ThorsteinVeblen 12/14/2001 12                    Hmmmmmm MiloBloom 12/14/2001 16                        Coming to Grips with Reality DoveTurnedHawk 12/14/2001 47                    Hey mrsleep 12/15/2001 61                I must, uncomfortably, side with Thorstein... Merlin 12/14/2001 14                    Merlin MiloBloom 12/14/2001 17                        I must question some of your perceptions, Milo... Merlin 12/14/2001 24                        Original in PAL? beware_of_god 12/14/2001 29                            I also doubt mrsleep 12/15/2001 62            Done and done. MiloBloom 12/14/2001 11                Try again ThorsteinVeblen 12/14/2001 13                    Can't do the capture... MiloBloom 12/14/2001 15                        Conversations... MiloBloom 12/14/2001 18                            I believe you ThorsteinVeblen 12/14/2001 19                                Funny that... MiloBloom 12/14/2001 20                                    Ask them... ThorsteinVeblen 12/14/2001 21                                    Hey Milo ThorsteinVeblen 12/15/2001 69                    Duhh CHICAGODEMOCRAT 12/14/2001 50                        You are correct chicagodemocrat rock 12/15/2001 55                        Conjecture, flawed logic, unsubstantiated opinions ThorsteinVeblen 12/15/2001 59                            Thor 2muchbs 12/15/2001 65                                I am just arguing ThorsteinVeblen 12/15/2001 66                                    Sounds good Thor 2muchbs 12/16/2001 70            Yeah, and I LOVE this picture... mrsleep 12/15/2001 60  What does it matter if it is true or false? Marianne Dec-14-01 22    Milo - we gotta give it up ThorsteinVeblen 12/14/2001 23  And now, the BIG question: Merlin Dec-14-01 25    bush track record EdGy 12/14/2001 26        Right you are, but... Merlin 12/14/2001 49  Rather then argue whether or not the tape is authentic or not...... NNN0LHI Dec-14-01 27    Don ThorsteinVeblen 12/14/2001 28        Thor NNN0LHI 12/14/2001 31            you've gotta be kidding platzjoff 12/14/2001 33                Listen pal, don't kill the messanger because you don't like the NNN0LHI 12/14/2001 34                    my apologies platzjoff 12/14/2001 35                        but AP 12/14/2001 38                            yes, but platzjoff 12/14/2001 39                                still think killing OBL isn't smart AP 12/14/2001 46                        OK Einstein NNN0LHI 12/14/2001 41                            Okay Oppenheimer, here goes platzjoff 12/14/2001 43                                I hope your right Edison NNN0LHI 12/14/2001 44                                    well...... platzjoff 12/14/2001 45                Did we want to convict Hitler? rock 12/15/2001 53                    yes, platzjoff 12/15/2001 58    TAPE AUTHENTICY poofer 12/14/2001 30    Tape Would Be Admissible DoveTurnedHawk 12/15/2001 51  Just thought I'd add my 1 cent worth CatWoman Dec-14-01 36  Suspicious elements of the tape? AP Dec-14-01 37    The tape has served... Q 12/14/2001 40  Something to Ponder - More Contradictions TNOE Dec-14-01 42    Some other interesting thoughts : 2muchbs 12/14/2001 48        There's a lot to read here... platzjoff 12/15/2001 57            what I am saying is that it doesnt add up. 2muchbs 12/15/2001 63  left-handed Bin Laden eats and drinks with right hand? markedgarowens Dec-15-01 52    Hmm.. Maybe I'm wasting your time markedgarowens 12/15/2001 56        No time wasted 2muchbs 12/15/2001 64  Can anyone say rock Dec-15-01 54    Thank you 2muchbs Duvenoy 12/15/2001 67        No thank you DUVENOY 2muchbs 12/15/2001 68

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ThorsteinVeblen (1294 posts) Dec-14-01, 00:03 AM (ET) 1. "Tin Foil Hat Theories..." LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-01 AT 00:05 AM (ET) "I don't get it. I've been following this thread with great interest, and as I am not technologically informed about the production of videos and the like, I don't really know what to think. But why, Thor, are you going on about 'nihilism' and 'relativism' as a way of attacking Milo's skepticism about the legitimacy of the tape? That is obviously a straw man, and it reminds me unhappily of how right-wingers tend to react to moral criticism. This was on display once in a tortured online debate I had (on a now long defunct BBS) regarding gay rights with what I can only regard as a typical right-winger. I had said that there was nothing immoral about homosexual behavior, and my opponent insisted that this committed me to moral relativism. I was aghast! Relativism? If that means something like 'there are no moral truths', then I am dead set against it. But try as I might to insist to this guy that I did not endorse any such thesis, he just laughed and said things like "you say homosexuality is okay and then you deny you're a relativist... yea, right". (That story is a bit of a digression, but I thought I'd tell it anyway. Maybe y'all will find it entertaining or illuminating as to the debating tactics of a rightwinger.) Anyway, I by no means mean to accuse you of any secret affiliations or anything, Thor; but I just don't get the introduction of this stuff about decadence and relativism and all that. You've now mentioned it twice in responding to Milo. So: what gives?" The short answer is that I didn't believe his intial post was worth answering point by point. Conspiracy theories by their nature cannot be disproved. There is a point the advocate of a conspiracy theory is saying more about himself than about reality. I am attempting to draw a line between reasonable debate and unreasonable debate. By all means question where I draw the line, but make no doubt about it, a line must be drawn if we are to any hope of living outside of the black, abyss of despair that is the result of nihilistic relativism. Mr. Milo Bloom does not know what he is speaking of when he implies there is not enough audio or video information contained on the 60 minute tape to prove conclusively that the person on the recently released tape is Bin Laden or Not. His orignal post contained disingenious questions that could be discounted by anyone who has followed the entire sad saga of what happened on September 11, 2001. The questions themselves are misleading and set up straw men representations of arguments, assume facts that are not in evidence, or misrepresent facts. They are not even worth answering. What they deserved was a blanket covering in the stench of decadence that Mr. Milo so obviously wallows in. The ONLY tin foil hat theory that is in the outside realm of possibility is that certain elements within the current administration had a certain foreknowledge of the attacks and let them happen only to be shocked at the devistation that was actually wreaked. IMHO there is no question that Bin Laden was responsible for the attacks. There was no need and is no current need to frame him. -------------------------------------------- "I suffer snakes to be killed..." - Ghandi   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Durtal (53 posts) Dec-14-01, 00:51 AM (ET) Reply to post #1 2. "Conspiracy theories &c" Thanks for the thoughtful response. The short answer is that I didn't believe his intial post was worth answering point by point. Conspiracy theories by their nature cannot be disproved. There is a point the advocate of a conspiracy theory is saying more about himself than about reality. If a "conspiracy theory" is a theory that alleges a conspiracy, then it is plainly not true that "conspiracy theories by their nature cannot be disproved." If a "conspiracy theory" means a specific kind of conspiracy theory -- namely, the kind where the conspirators are perfectly successful in everything they do -- then those, yes, by definition cannot be disproved, as it implies that no evidence against it counts as evidence against it. Whether any particular theory is a conspiracy theory of that specifically disabled kind is a good question; I didn't get the impression from Milo's post that he was making his theory into such a one. Was he advocating a theory according to which any video released, no matter what the quality and content, would be dismissed as a fake? That's the real question here, I think, in seeing if the resistance to the video is the result of the sort of conspiracy theory you have in mind or not. One thing I've been thinking about for a while is starting a thread asking conspiracy theorists to make specific predictions based on the theory -- to test them. As I mentioned in another thread last month, one thing that spooked me about the conspiracy theories is that many made, on the basis of those theories, a prediction that some catastrophic event that could look like terrorism would happen on the same day the NORC data was released. This was predicted well in advance -- and then something fitting that description actually happened. So -- any takers on predictions? I am attempting to draw a line between reasonable debate and unreasonable debate. By all means question where I draw the line, but make no doubt about it, a line must be drawn if we are to any hope of living outside of the black, abyss of despair that is the result of nihilistic relativism. Agreed. (I guess I don't like the terminology of "nihilistic relativism", but I think I know what you have in mind. I would call it something less catchy, like "the complete loss of conviction in the value of rigorous thinking" or "the conviction that rhetoric is everything and nothing is either more or less reasonable than anything else.") "The first step in a fascist movement is the combination under an energetic leader of a number of men who possess more than the average share of leisure, brutality, and stupidity. The next step is to fascinate fools and muzzle the intelligent, by emotional excitement on the one hand and terrorism on the other." -- Bertrand Russell   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

ThorsteinVeblen (1294 posts) Dec-14-01, 01:24 AM (ET) Reply to post #2 3. "What would this board be without drama?" LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-01 AT 01:26 AM (ET) "Agreed. (I guess I don't like the terminology of "nihilistic relativism", but I think I know what you have in mind. I would call it something less catchy, like "the complete loss of conviction in the value of rigorous thinking" or "the conviction that rhetoric is everything and nothing is either more or less reasonable than anything else.")" It's my innate (some would say inane) sense of drama... -------------------------------------------- "I suffer snakes to be killed..." - Ghandi   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MiloBloom (52 posts) Dec-14-01, 01:43 AM (ET) Reply to post #1 5. "Wrong, Thor" "Mr. Milo Bloom does not know what he is speaking of when he implies there is not enough audio or video information contained on the 60 minute tape to prove conclusively that the person on the recently released tape is Bin Laden or Not. " Thor, I worked in the VFX Industry for 5 years and I am credited on over 20 feature films including Contact, Starship Troopers, Michael, etc.. When this tape was first announced, I called some friends, one of whom won an academy award for his work, and asked what to look for to see if it was a fake. I also called a detective friend in NYPD, my college roommate and asked the same question. They all said the same things, look for grainy video, profiles, garbled audio and other things that make it IMPOSSIBLE to do any conclusive proof on the item. The key word here being CONCLUSIVE!! Whether the experts do their usual 50/50 split or not is more than enough... Hey even the tobacco companies found people to say how smoking wasn't addictive. The video fit PERFECTLY into that scenario and also contradicted many facts already in evidence, such as the EVIDENCE about a letter written by one of the hijackers found in luggage and about the EVIDENCE of several of the men visiting hookers in the days up to the attacks, which contradict the claim on the tape that they didn't know their mission until just before boarding planes. Why would someone write a suicide note, explaining how they would want to be buried, along with a prayer, if they didn't know they were going to die? "IMHO there is no question that Bin Laden was responsible for the attacks. There was no need and is no current need to frame him." Wrong yet again. I also have no doubt that he was responsible, but there IS a reason to fake a video. One word, Support. With unemployment on the continued rise and economy falling and one of the lowest spending 4th quarters on record about to come in, a reminder is needed to rally the troops. Those who have felt particularly patriotic during this time have, no doubt, had their feelings reinvigorated as they watched an actor portraying OBL laugh about the attacks. I have no doubt in my mind that this take is a fraud... None. Because I did all the research before, made the phone calls and checked the info. Fact.. you can't get conclusive facial recognition from a profile/grainy video. Fact... you can't get a conclusive voice print from garbled/distant speech. You throw this phrase around, "nihilistic relativism", like you know what it means, but I suspect you don't. Or you are just a typical apologist who likes everything wrapped up in neat little packages and doesn't believe that this exactly same administration (the major players at least), did a similar fraud on America in the early 90's when Kuwaiti royalty posed as peasants for the purpose of telling congress how evil Saddam is/was. Now, Thor, you can either stick your head in the sand and ignore a mountain of inconsistencies (why did the Saudi person fly into a war zone for this dinner, why doesn't what OBL said about the people knowing mesh with the facts, why on earth would he put this on tape and then allow the person to take the video home), why does he act as if the camera isn't there, why does it look like a staged play, and also ignore the nearly identical action of these same people (having the Kuwaiti's lie to congress) and just blindly accept what you are told like a good little sheeple. OR, you can use a very simple principle Okham's Razor and say, it looks like a fake, it sounds like a fake, it acts like a fake, they have shown they will fake... Thus, it is a fake. Wait, maybe you don't think the media/govt is capable of lying to us or has reason to.... So, you believe bush won the 2000 election and the Florida recount?   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

ThorsteinVeblen (1294 posts) Dec-14-01, 02:12 AM (ET) Reply to post #5 7. "And if the Mountains should crumble..." LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-01 AT 02:16 AM (ET) "They all said the same things, look for grainy video, profiles, garbled audio and other things that make it IMPOSSIBLE to do any conclusive proof on the item." Why would grainy video affect facial recognition software?? Most facial recognition software operates on data gleaned from surveilance camaras. Surrveilance camaras have much less resolution then the camara that the video released to today was shot with. Please educate yourself on how facial recognition software works. During the sixty minutes of video footage we see Bin Laden's left profile, his front and his right profile. We, in fact, see him from all three angles facilitating the work that the facial recognition software needs to do. Instead of 14 -22 nodal points there are at least 50 during the 60 minute course of the video. At some points the "garbled audio" is very, very clear. Again, during the sixty minutes of footage there is more than enough clear dialogue (3+ minutes) to provide CONCLUSIVE ID when compared to a sample from another source. "The video fit PERFECTLY into that scenario and also contradicted many facts already in evidence, such as the EVIDENCE about a letter written by one of the hijackers found in luggage and about the EVIDENCE of several of the men visiting hookers in the days up to the attacks, which contradict the claim on the tape that they didn't know their mission until just before boarding planes. Why would someone write a suicide note, explaining how they would want to be buried, along with a prayer, if they didn't know they were going to die?" There are so many problems with your confused reasoning on this straw man I do not know where to start. a.) Assuming the video tape contradicts facts in evidence (which it does not) why would the U.S. government fake a tape that does not fit like a glove with other facts???? The video cannot "fit perfectly into a scenario" AND "contradict facts". You are muddled in your thinking. b.) During the course of the tape we hear Osama Bin Laden explain that only a FEW people in the cell knew that it was a SUICIDE MISSION. All of them knew it was a hijacking. The "whore" story which you refer to was Mohammad Atta's. Atta, as the leader of the group, obviously knew it was a Suicide Mission. Atta was also the one who left the suicide note. You need to get your facts straight. In no way does this video tape contradict facts already in evidence. I don't how you can even attempt to defend your crackpot theory without knowing what the body of evidence is. Jesus... "One word, Support." Bush already has an almost 90% approval rating... "did a similar fraud on America in the early 90's when Kuwaiti royalty posed as peasants for the purpose of telling congress how evil Saddam is/was." My argument is not that the administration is not capable of doing this. My argument is that it is technologically impossible make something like this undetectable. What Bush Sr. pulled off didn't require the sophisticaiton that something like this would require. Also, consider the bullshit that Bush Sr. pulled came out. It became Public. The truth is known. George W. Bush risking a "stunt" like the "stunt" you are implying to garner "support" when he already has it is irrational especially when you consider that the truth WILL come out. The video will be one of the most famous videos in history and could not stand up to the kind of scruntiny it will endure if it is a fake. "ignore a mountain of inconsistencies " I have reduced your mountain to a pile of steaming dogshit. -------------------------------------------- "I suffer snakes to be killed..." - Ghandi   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MiloBloom (52 posts) Dec-14-01, 02:47 AM (ET) Reply to post #7 9. "I hope you realize to move..." "Why would grainy video affect facial recognition software?? Most facial recognition software operates on data gleaned from surveilance camaras. Surrveilance camaras have much less resolution then the camara that the video released to today was shot with. Please educate yourself on how facial recognition software works." I know how it works, Thor, and it won't work with MOST Surrveilance cameras... I would think you would know that. Places that wish to use the recognition software are forced to upgrade their systems for better cameras. When a video is grainy or dark, it washes out peaks, valleys, etc.. and thus the software can get both a false-positive and/or not pick up critical information. Please learn this stuff. "During the sixty minutes of video footage we see Bin Laden's left profile, his front and his right profile. We, in fact, see him from all three angles facilitating the work that the facial recognition software needs to do. Instead of 14 -22 nodal points there are at least 50 during the 60 minute course of the video. At some points the "garbled audio" is very, very clear. Again, during the sixty minutes of footage there is more than enough clear dialogue (3+ minutes) to provide CONCLUSIVE ID when compared to a sample from another source." Gee, the video on your system must be much different then with the rest of the world. Full facial shots are so fuzzy, the face is gone and the "clear" audio you speak of is completely non-existent. "a.) Assuming the video tape contradicts facts in evidence (which it does not) why would the U.S. government fake a tape that does not fit like a glove with other facts???? The video cannot "fit perfectly into a scenario" AND "contradict facts". You are muddled in your thinking." Because the government has been trying to turn other Muslim's against Bin Laden and suggesting that he sent these people to their deaths without them really knowing and then laughed about that fact is EXACTLY what they would want him to say. "b.) During the course of the tape we hear Osama Bin Laden explain that only a FEW people in the cell knew that it was a SUICIDE MISSION. All of them knew it was a hijacking. The "whore" story which you refer to was Mohammad Atta's. Atta, as the leader of the group, obviously knew it was a Suicide Mission. Atta was also the one who left the suicide note. You need to get your facts straight. In no way does this video tape contradict facts already in evidence. I don't how you can even attempt to defend your crackpot theory without knowing what the body of evidence is. Jesus..." Wrong again, Thor... Atta was the ONLY person whose luggage didn't make it on the plane, thus, the ONLY person from whom a note COULD have been found. What about the visits to hookers? What about other phone calls and notes found on computers that suggested they all KNEW exactly what they were doing. Why do you keep ignoring the other parts of the post? I love the way you try to debate... No, because I said it, Wahhhh! Please learn this skill. "One word, Support." Bush already has an almost 90% approval rating..." And a poll taken in the last couple of weeks showed that people were more willing to criticize him. (This message was posted here at some point). What about Enron? You don't think that this administration wants to keep America ferverous? They have EVERY reason to fake a video. "My argument is that it is technologically impossible make something like this undetectable. " Ya know, you keep trying to squeeze out of it. It is not "UNDETECTABLE"... it is fuzzy enough that people will disagree and that is all they need to steer enough sheeple to believe them. "Also, consider the bullshit that Bush Sr. pulled came out. It became Public. The truth is known. George W. Bush risking a "stunt" like the "stunt" you are implying to garner "support" when he already has it is irrational especially when you consider that the truth WILL come out. " Maybe it will, maybe it won't. Again, I point out that they STILL haven't officially debunked the Alien Autopsy video, but I am fairly sure it is a fake. I have seen "experts" weigh in on both sides of that issue and THAT video (shot on film stock from 1947) was much harder to fake than this. The one thing I asked my VFX friends today is how hard it would be to fake a video like this and I got one answer... EASY! Give them an actor who looks something like OBL and from there it is simple to make a video that the experts will disagree on. " The video will be one of the most famous videos in history and could not stand up to the kind of scruntiny it will endure if it is a fake." In the end, it will be incolclusive. Hell, it is already starting. People are already weighing in on both sides and giving reason for their position. Every person will choose to believe what that person chooses to believe. I have had arguments with people about the Alien Autopsy video and I have very definite reasons why I believe it to be a fake (why did an autopsy so important last for such a short time), but they will point out 20 things that "prove" them right. "ignore a mountain of inconsistencies " I have reduced your mountain to a pile of steaming dogshit." Thor, please try to be honest... You barely addressed one of several inconsistencies I raised in the other thread. When you wish to do more than "well, only one suicide note was found", come back and play. Until then, PLEASE do some research on these issues. I have.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

farmboxer (2063 posts) Dec-14-01, 01:36 AM (ET) 4. "In The Days Of The Digital, They Can Make A Tape Do Or" say anything! I am tired of the news media! They are a bunch of idiots! Why didn't they report the coup?! I consider America's first coup to be very important!   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MiloBloom (52 posts) Dec-14-01, 01:51 AM (ET) Reply to post #4 6. "Farm" I don't even think we need digital to pull this one off. With even equipment from 5 years ago, they had to work to make this video look/sound so bad. Consider that we have 1 lux video cameras and yet within all 60 minutes of this video, you never get a true clear shot of his face. The video itself is its own worst enemy and the "players" act like they are doing a play, talking to one another. Beyond the numerous factual inconsistencies, the existence of the video makes little sense. I have another theory about why this video was made, but I don't want to post it right now. I have no doubt it is a fake, but there may yet be a reason for it.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

ThorsteinVeblen (1294 posts) Dec-14-01, 02:13 AM (ET) Reply to post #6 8. "Did we watch the same video?" LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-01 AT 02:48 AM (ET) LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-01 AT 02:34 AM (ET) "you never get a true clear shot of his face." What are you talking about. Have you even seen the videos??? Here is a quote from Peter Bergen who has interviewed Osama Bin Laden numerous times : Peter Bergen "It seems authentic to me. I mean, A, the rhetoric, the bin Laden employees. B, it's him. I've looked at all the tapes that he has been on. I've met him, it's his voice it's authentic. Simple explanations are the best ones. There will always be conspiracy theories about these kinds of things, but they are just conspiracy theories. This was obviously a kind of casual moment. It has all the hallmarks of authenticity to me." Hmmm...have you ever met Bin Laden Milo? Please check out videos on CNN. We get full frontal, full right and partial left profiles throughout. Espcially in the first 3 minutes of the full video. -------------------------------------------- "I suffer snakes to be killed..." - Ghandi   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MiloBloom (52 posts) Dec-14-01, 02:50 AM (ET) Reply to post #8 10. "Of course..." What are you talking about. Have you even seen the videos??? Of course. "Peter Bergen "It seems authentic to me. I mean, A, the rhetoric, the bin Laden employees. B, it's him. I've looked at all the tapes that he has been on. I've met him, it's his voice it's authentic. Simple explanations are the best ones. There will always be conspiracy theories about these kinds of things, but they are just conspiracy theories. This was obviously a kind of casual moment. It has all the hallmarks of authenticity to me." Hmmm...have you ever met Bin Laden Milo?" I love the way Peter tries to qualify his statement... SEEMS authentic, then in the same line tries to dispell any possible "theories", yet his argument only goes to prove the point. The simpliest explanation is the best. So either OBL lied to the people on this tape about the hijackers not knowing their mission, after weeks of denial, decided to admitt his entire dastardly deed on video, wasn't bothered by the fact that the video was being made, had a Saudi shiek fly through a warzone to have a dinner meeting and then let someone keep this video in their house... OR it is a fake. Fake seems much simpler than trying to make us believe the rest.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

ThorsteinVeblen (1294 posts) Dec-14-01, 03:12 AM (ET) Reply to post #10 12. "Everyone's a fake" " So either OBL lied to the people on this tape about the hijackers not knowing their mission, after weeks of denial, decided to admitt his entire dastardly deed on video" What is so dasterdly about the deed? Your contention that the U.S. government would plant this "contradictory" evidence in order to piss of Muslims is stupid and demonstrates a complete incomprehension on your part of the relationship between Bin Laden and the Arab Street. They do not love Bin Laden because he is a good guy. They love Bin Laden because he stickes it to America. Do you really think this is going to turn Arabs against him? This is like the conspiracy theory surrounding the "downing" of the flight in Pennsylvania. The Tin-Foil Hatters kept yelling that it was shot down even after Cheney had come out and said "yes, we would've shot it down had we been there in time" and then ordering the air force to shoot down any future hijacked planes for national security. The American public accepted it as necessary. In a climate like that why would the American government not shot down that plane??? People would've accepted it. Why would you think that the Middle East would be "outraged" at the fact that some of the hijackers didn't know they were going on a suicide mission until the last second???? Osama Bin Laden himself does not say that Atta is the only person with full knowledge. Each "cell", each plane had a different group and none (except maybe the leaders) were aware of the other. The leaders of each group and maybe a couple of others were aware. Only few people were not knowledgable. But one thing they all knew was that they were going to hijack a plane. They all knew they might not come back alive. Why would'nt they go get hookers. Why wouldn't they go to strip clubs. Maybe even some of them wrote notes to loved ones... How many notes were there? Maybe only the ones who knew it was a suicide mission wrote suicide notes. Bin Laden does not enumerate or name (with the exception of Atta) the people who knew and the people who didn't. "wasn't bothered by the fact that the video was being made, had a Saudi shiek fly through a warzone to have a dinner meeting and then let someone keep this video in their house... OR it is a fake." So the Shiek is a fake too. And Bin Ladens spokesperson. All are look alikes or all have on rubber masks. All voices have been altered to match the voices of the people they are impersonating? Just what technology accomplishes this? Why would he be bothered about a video tape being made??? I don't understand you. Private gathering. Private documentation by a trusted ally. You are purporting to know his mind and then offering this "knowledge" as evidence. I do not see how he is acting inconsistantly. -------------------------------------------- "I suffer snakes to be killed..." - Ghandi   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MiloBloom (52 posts) Dec-14-01, 04:52 AM (ET) Reply to post #12 16. "Hmmmmmm" Thor says, "What is so dasterdly about the deed? Your contention that the U.S. government would plant this "contradictory" evidence in order to piss of Muslims is stupid and demonstrates a complete incomprehension on your part of the relationship between Bin Laden and the Arab Street. " Yes, they have been desperately trying to do exactly that since day one. Why has the government, despite contradictory evidence, claimed that not only was this plan in works for YEARS, but also that the hijackers probably didn't even know they were on a suicide mission. Thor says, "They love Bin Laden because he stickes it to America. Do you really think this is going to turn Arabs against him?" Yes. They love Bin Laden not because he "stickes it to America"(sic), but because they believe he is doing it FOR them. To learn that he laughed about his own people not knowing they were going to die paints him in a far different light than someone who acknowledged that "sacrifices had to be made". How would America react if a video came out with bush laughing about some friendly fire deaths of people who were in the way. Thor says, "This is like the conspiracy theory surrounding the "downing" of the flight in Pennsylvania. The Tin-Foil Hatters kept yelling that it was shot down even after Cheney had come out and said "yes, we would've shot it down had we been there in time" and then ordering the air force to shoot down any future hijacked planes for national security. " What on earth are you babbling about? There was strong evidence (including witness accounts on the phone) that there was going to be a stuggle, which can often result in a downed plane. Here, the evidence suggests fraud. Thor says, " Why would you think that the Middle East would be "outraged" at the fact that some of the hijackers didn't know they were going on a suicide mission until the last second???? " I'll try this again, slowly. I T W A S B E C A U S E H E W A S L A U G H I N G A B O U T I T! Thor says, "Each "cell", each plane had a different group and none (except maybe the leaders) were aware of the other. The leaders of each group and maybe a couple of others were aware. " I guess this also explains why recovered luggage from the flight in Penn also contained several suicide notes? Sorry, but try again. Thor says, "So the Shiek is a fake too. And Bin Ladens spokesperson. All are look alikes or all have on rubber masks. " Gee, an unidentified Shiek and one other person who also cannot be identified through the video... yeah, that makes it SO much harder. LOL Thor says, "All voices have been altered to match the voices of the people they are impersonating? Just what technology accomplishes this?" Uh, acting and poor voice recording so it cannot be verified convincingly. Duh. Thor says, "Why would he be bothered about a video tape being made??? I don't understand you. Private gathering. Private documentation by a trusted ally. You are purporting to know his mind and then offering this "knowledge" as evidence. I do not see how he is acting inconsistantly." Because we are dealing with an enemy who has been very VERY careful. The only videos he is seen on is propaganda videos. Somehow the government storms into a house and finds the video tape where he gives a full confession??!?! I would say it is the plot of a bad movie, but no producer would buy it. Was the tape labeled OSAMA CONFESSION? We are dealing with a person who has eluded this country for YEARS... He has masterminded some pretty nasty and effective attacks all without any real direct evidence showing he did it... Like a mob boss, he manages to seem to keep his finger out of the pie, but his culpability becomes obvious by association. This same guy suddenly decides to divulge his entire dastardly deed ON VIDEO?!?!?! Again, try to understand, I am not saying he didn't do it. What I am saying is that this video is so obviously a fraud I am continually amazed that anyone gives it any attention.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

DoveTurnedHawk (108 posts) Dec-14-01, 06:23 PM (ET) Reply to post #16 47. "Coming to Grips with Reality" Again, try to understand, I am not saying he didn't do it. What I am saying is that this video is so obviously a fraud I am continually amazed that anyone gives it any attention. I'm sorry, but much like Sharon has done to Arafat, I must now dismiss you as irrelevant. The overwhelming consensus opinion of the experts is that this tape is genuine. I believe it is genuine. I can understand some people arguing that, perhaps, it might be possible for this video to be a fake. I can understand that position, even though I might disagree with it vehemently. But for you to claim that the video is "so obviously a fraud I am continually amazed that anyone gives it any attention" is so far beyond the bounds of reasonable that it takes you right past Hyperboleland and straight into Nutsville. DTH   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

mrsleep (36 posts) Dec-15-01, 05:40 PM (ET) Reply to post #12 61. "Hey" Have you gone to the movies latly? Have you noticed how WELL they can fake reality? hmmm? Think about the movies youve seen like The Matrix, Planet of The Apes etc, Die Hard and you tell me it CAN'T be faked   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Merlin (37 posts) Dec-14-01, 03:37 AM (ET) Reply to post #10 14. "I must, uncomfortably, side with Thorstein..." Not that I agree with his "All conspiracies are bullshit" general temperment, which I find a bit insufferable. But I think that this thing is much too subtle for Bushlike people to make, given the number of certifiable points in it, particularly of course all the video footage of people who are such dead ringers for the real ones, and such extraordinary actors, they would never be repugs. (My son argues that given the level of gingoism in the US today, creatives of such subtle intellect could indeed be found, but I disagree.) On Milo's objection that Bin Laden says the operatives never knew their mission, I make this point. He never says that. He says they didn't know their TRUE mission. Obviously they knew they had some mission, because they showed up for work that day. I'm convinced they were told they would hijack the planes and take them to Afghanistan, or some safe harbor somewhere. What they weren't told--I believe--is that they were going to die. As far as Occam's Razor goes, unless you are so cynical as to believe the Bushies actually pulled off the WTC attack, then you concede it was done by OBL types, right? So if they did it, why would they not react exactly this way, in celebrational mode? It fits precisely with the tenor and tone of the radicals on all the Muslim discussion forums I visit. It fits precisely with human nature. How would you like to be confined to a rathole somewhere, just having pulled off one of the most notorious capers in human history, with nobody to go gaga over you? I mean...really! One more point. It looks to me like this is at least a second generation copy, which would explain why it was just sitting around; e.g. it wasn't filmed by the guy who had it, but given to him by someone who had copied it. Makes sense to me.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MiloBloom (52 posts) Dec-14-01, 05:03 AM (ET) Reply to post #14 17. "Merlin" "As far as Occam's Razor goes, unless you are so cynical as to believe the Bushies actually pulled off the WTC attack, then you concede it was done by OBL types, right? So if they did it, why would they not react exactly this way, in celebrational mode?" I would agree if the tape was made shortly after the attack; however, this video is from 11/9 (a fact that would be more difficult to conceal if they tried to fake its date, as their may be trace evidence left that can date it). This is a full 2 months after the attack during which time Afghanistan is under severe attack both by bombs and from the Northern Alliance, yet this Saudi Shiek (remember, we are supposedly close with the Saudi's) flies into the warzone for a dinner party? It is just such a long way to go to explain how this tape was made. "One more point. It looks to me like this is at least a second generation copy, which would explain why it was just sitting around" I agree that it is second generation, which is also a convenient way to wash out items that could be verified by computer programs. Consider, not only are we forced to question why OBL would present an entire confession on video (when he knows the American's are knocking on the door), but then how on earth did it get out to be copied? If OBL was a stupid person, I could believe this scenario, but he isn't. The guy is actually quite intelligent and has proven it time and time again. This reads like the confession of a cartoon criminal, not someone who has been so maticulous and detailed with his plans in the past. I can understand why people want to believe it... It wraps everything up in a neat little package. However, this is all just too contrived, too convenient and too much to be believed.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Merlin (37 posts) Dec-14-01, 07:05 AM (ET) Reply to post #17 24. "I must question some of your perceptions, Milo..." I ask that you suspend disbelief for a minute (or actually, it's suspend belief.. No, wait a minute... aw screw it...) and consider that UBL (or OBL or Oby Wan or whowever) actually IS one of the prime movers behind a terrorist network and IS, in the Muslim world certainly believed to be such, and that this network actually did perpetrate the WTC attacks. Why would they not act precisely as depicted on the tape? Now, assume they were so gathered, as depicted. There were clearly many people in or passing thru the hall or room where they were meeting. Why would it be so implausible that one of the people there would tape it? I mean, this is the most famous guy in the freaking world, for god sake! This is very, very big stuff for these people. Which also explains why some Saudi shiek would travel there. The guy was so in awe of UBL he was gushing to the point of tears! I also think you must consider clearly the implications of the Tora Bora location. This was built, as I understand it, by or thru the US (probably by Bin Laden Construction Co.) as an impregnable fortress. It sits very close to the Paki border in what until the past two weeks was the fairly safe (for the Talibs) area east of Kabul. So someone travelling there would be quite plausible, especially given the notoriety of the host. As to Saudi shieks, good heavens, Saudi Arabia is the cradle of Muslim fanaticism. It's where the Wahabi sect was born and runs rampant. Virtually all Saudi kids are taught by Wahabi clerics in madrasas where they learn only (a) the Quran and (b) hatred of America and the west. The real scandal is that the Bushies have coddled the Saudis for ages and treated the country as a gas station and cash cow. Another thing. A lot of the folks over there have bucks. They drive around in some pretty fancy Toyotas, and came up with some heavy duty electronics pretty fast after the Talibs went under. I don't think it's unusual at all that someone would have a video camera and would tape such an event and would want to copy it an show off how he was with the world's most famous person. Finally, put yourself in Bin Laden's shoes. He's got MILLIONS of people on his side. They love him not because he's innocent, but precisely because he's guilty. If you had pulled off a caper of this magnitude, my god wouldn't you want to share good times celebrating with friends? Wouldn't you want your fans to see you? I mean your enemies already know you did it. I just don't think the guy really cares that much about keeping any aura of innocence. It was always an act. Even the Muslims who claim it as a defense don't really believe it. Other than the true believers, of course. And Sweet Jesus, there are plenty of those!   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

beware_of_god (350 posts) Dec-14-01, 09:53 AM (ET) Reply to post #17 29. "Original in PAL?" I agree that it is second generation, which is also a convenient way to wash out items that could be verified by computer programs. Wouldn't the original be in PAL format? Do they have 50 cycle electricity over there and therefore 25fps video? Snow? Snow I tend to think of as white. Snow is typically associated with TV signal reception. The only other snow would be from a digital imaging CCD in low light, but it is more color fuzz than snow, i.e. you get low colored pixels where there information could not be picked up by the sensor. I did not really get much of a look at the video. The internet versions were inaudible. It does look exactly like Osama, but 50lbs heavier. I don't know how a guy with kidney problems gains all that weight, but maybe that's what happens. He's not MY dictator!   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

mrsleep (36 posts) Dec-15-01, 05:42 PM (ET) Reply to post #29 62. "I also doubt" That Bin Laden has a high fat diet. I doubt that VERY much.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MiloBloom (52 posts) Dec-14-01, 03:01 AM (ET) Reply to post #8 11. "Done and done." "Please check out videos on CNN. We get full frontal, full right and partial left profiles throughout. Espcially in the first 3 minutes of the full video." Checked it. Here is one of those GREAT full frontal shots. Or of course this beauty: The only clear shots are like this: Which are USELESS for conclusive proof. The simple question to ask (if doing a fake like this) is how can we make a video that tells us everything, but shows us nothing. This is EXACTLY what I was told to look for when checked to see if this was a fake. Grainy, Dark and not from the front. Same problem here: Even here: This is probably one of the best shots: But we still manage to have an image washed out enough and grainy enough to not allow any facial recognition software to get a CONCLUSIVE result.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

ThorsteinVeblen (1294 posts) Dec-14-01, 03:17 AM (ET) Reply to post #11 13. "Try again" LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-01 AT 03:18 AM (ET) Please look at the first 3 minutes of the full video. You failed to show the full frontal shots and the left profile including the left ear. I would consider all the above shots with the exception of the second one down to be that of the right profile. Why, please tell me, if the video was faked, would the fakers make it 60 minutes long. Why not 15? Why not 10? Were the sheik and the spokesman faked too??? What about the voices??? -------------------------------------------- "I suffer snakes to be killed..." - Ghandi   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MiloBloom (52 posts) Dec-14-01, 04:39 AM (ET) Reply to post #13 15. "Can't do the capture..." Sorry, Thor, but I can't do the capture of the video from here and can only go with images posted on the major newsites. "Were the sheik and the spokesman faked too??? What about the voices???" Yes and yes... The voices are so garbled, with so much noise over the background, it would be E A S Y as pie to make it inconclusive enough to voice print.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MiloBloom (52 posts) Dec-14-01, 05:10 AM (ET) Reply to post #15 18. "Conversations..." I had two conversations tonight with VFX Experts. How qualified? Both have won Academy Awards for their work. Sorry, I will not name them, as that wouldn't be right to do to them and although I can somehow sense that Thor will be sure these conversations never took place... they did. When asked if this tape COULD be a fake, both agreed that it would be easy to do. They pointed out the same things they told me to look for in the first place. Poor quality, poor shots, garbled video and everything just enough to not allow a definitive indentification. HOWEVER, when asked, IS it a fake, one said, "Absolutely not". His argument (beside voting for bush) was that there was much more that could have been done to give it validity without compromising the integrity. He felt it looked like any number of a amateur home videos shot with a camcorder that he has seen over the years and if produced would have had a better quality, while still avoiding anything that would make indentification definite. The other (a hard core dem) reserved judgement. He was very suspicious of the video and thought it was just too convenient that the audio managed to drop at all the right places and the video was just poor enough. He won't rule it out (citing the same reason that he has seen amateur video this bad before), BUT it would also be too easy to recreate something like this and thus his feeling was that it could never be proven fake or real.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

ThorsteinVeblen (1294 posts) Dec-14-01, 05:48 AM (ET) Reply to post #18 19. "I believe you" LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-01 AT 06:07 AM (ET) I believe that you believe that you had conversations with people who have won Academy Awards. I will not ask you to prove it because I have no reason to disbelieve you, but if you could provide a videotape of the conversations I would be much more inclined to believe what you believe is the actual truth. But then you, as you so clearly point out, could fake a video and at that point, I am really left with nothing to believe except my belief that my belief your experience, that you believe to be real, was real would be jusified if I witnessed the conversation myself. But then again I would have to question whether my belief that my senses are believable is a valid belief. I can't believe I just wrote that. Your friends sound like post guys and thus probably have little or no idea experience with voice-print technology or with facial recognition software. Putting their lack of expertise aside I would like, if you are going to talk to them in the next week, to know their opinion on what I consider a question of quantity of data. Do they believe there is enough audio data in the 60 minute video for a conclusive comparison to another recording of Bin Laden's voice? What happens if they used a noise-reducing algorithm? What about something like an L-1 which would limit the condenser pops and make the low amplitude syllables louder? Do they believe there is enough facial data over the 60 minutes to be able to using facial-recognition software conclusively? These are the real questions and these questions have quantifiable answers. If we can find a real authority on these two questions, and that real authority comes to the conclusion that we lack the data to make a conclusive statement, I will admit that we must leave the question about the truth value of the videotape open. But I will only admit that much. I will not, as you have done, make any conclusions toward the legitimacy or lack thereof of the video in the face of a lack of data. I will just leave the question open. Although Ockham's razor, whether or not you choose to admit it, cuts your rubber mask, imposter, cooked video, CIA video theory into shreds. -------------------------------------------- "I suffer snakes to be killed..." - Ghandi   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MiloBloom (52 posts) Dec-14-01, 06:21 AM (ET) Reply to post #19 20. "Funny that..." "Your friends sound like post guys and thus probably have little or no idea experience with voice-print technology or with facial recognition software." Since you are an admitted "post" guy, obviously you have no experience with such technology, which gives you zero right to comment on them. "Do they believe there is enough audio data in the 60 minute video for a conclusive comparison to another recording of Bin Laden's voice? What happens if they used a noise-reducing algorithm? What about something like an L-1 which would limit the condenser pops and make the low amplitude syllables louder?" Maybe if you had a clue, you would know that anytime you do a noise reduction or smooth out the wave, you lose integrity. Since this audio track already has little integrity, voice print technology is just so much voodoo. Why not throw some tea-leaves down, or wait, lets give people lie detector test, there is some reliable technology we can all rely on, right? "Although Ockham's razor, whether or not you choose to admit it, cuts your rubber mask, imposter, cooked video, CIA video theory into shreds." Suuuure it does, Thor. I can honestly say I feel very sorry for you. I am glad that you believe the inconsistent facts, the incredibly leaps in logic and other fantasies you need to believe in to completely accept this video, but I will remain, here, on earth, where the reality roams.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

ThorsteinVeblen (1294 posts) Dec-14-01, 06:27 AM (ET) Reply to post #20 21. "Ask them..." Ask your friends if they consider themselves authorities on voice-print and facial recognition technology. If they admit that they could testify as experts in a court of law regarding the quanity of data question, I will take them at their word espcially the republican as he has no political axe to grind. Ask them if there is enough audio data. Ask them if there is enough video data. -------------------------------------------- "I suffer snakes to be killed..." - Ghandi   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

ThorsteinVeblen (1294 posts) Dec-15-01, 07:35 PM (ET) Reply to post #20 69. "Hey Milo" Have you talked to your friends yet? I am really curious as to what they say about whether or not there is sufficient data or not? -------------------------------------------- "I suffer snakes to be killed..." - Ghandi   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

CHICAGODEMOCRAT (104 posts) Dec-14-01, 11:58 PM (ET) Reply to post #13 50. "Duhh" The shit bag Bush coup wanted it to look real and anyone who takes videos knows that you use the whole 60 min. tape up. We are not stupid this tape is bullshit and so is Bush and anything that has his name attached to it is BS. Why didn't they say Bushes name in the tape? Why did they take 15 mins out to point out that they had snow ont he ground? Are there electrical outlets in caves for lighting? Why did it take several weeks to put the video out? Hmmm My guess is to make sure no one could see anything american in the background and to make sure that you couldn't hear anyone's voice in the background that would have given them away. Also, to make sure that they had the phrases down right and the clothing they need to look perfect. Is that the reason that the Bush coup went to hollywood recently so that they could find out how to create a fake video and find an actor willing to make a fake video. HOW CAN I BELIEVE THE BUSH COUP WHEN THEY STOLE THE ELECTION AND CAME INTO OFFICE AND STARTED OUT AS LIARS ABOUT THE WHITEHOUSE AND AF1 BEING TRASHED. THE MEDIA ARE BUSH WHORES AND OUR COUNTRY IS GOING TO HELL RIGHT NOW. GET OVER IT BUSH WAS NOT ELECTED!   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

rock (150 posts) Dec-15-01, 10:40 AM (ET) Reply to post #50 55. "You are correct chicagodemocrat" Nothing legitimate can flow from an illegitimate government. George Dumbya Bush --- illegitimate John Asscraft --- illegitimate Condomrisa Lice --- illegitimate Colon (guts) Powell --- illigitimate Peter Cheney --- illigitimate Hairy Fleisher --- illigitimate Tommy Tomsongun --- illititimate ... Hope I spelled "illegitmate" right; I use it a lot.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

ThorsteinVeblen (1294 posts) Dec-15-01, 03:42 PM (ET) Reply to post #50 59. "Conjecture, flawed logic, unsubstantiated opinions" Your post is nothing but. There is an easy way, scientific way to prove whether or not the video is genuine or not. First question, is there enough audio/video data in the 60 minute tape to apply voice print/facial recognition technology? Second question, what are the results of the voice print/facial recongnition analysis? Anything else, including your post and your uninformed opinions is irrelevant. -------------------------------------------- "I suffer snakes to be killed..." - Ghandi   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

2muchbs (414 posts) Dec-15-01, 06:31 PM (ET) Reply to post #59 65. "Thor" how come we cant just think outloud? You seem to be taking offense to anyone who wonders. Arent we on the same side? And as for voice matching, how do you know the first voice we heard of Bin laden wasnt messed with? I play guitar in my spare time. Have been for about 30 years. I have a effects processor that can sample your voice and reproduce it in any pattern you like. If I can do it with a 800.00 processor, well, Im just saying technology is very powerful. This show could be very deep.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

ThorsteinVeblen (1294 posts) Dec-15-01, 07:03 PM (ET) Reply to post #65 66. "I am just arguing" LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-01 AT 07:29 PM (ET) If you think outloud, I am going to challenge your thoughts. I too am a musician/composer/audio guy and I am aware of the technology out there. I am also aware that the technology leaves artifacts and what it can and can't do. I also know that technology exists that, with sufficient data, can conclusively prove this tape legitimate or illegitimate. I am just trying to reduce the speculation about the legtimacy of the tape to quantifiable terms. -------------------------------------------- "I suffer snakes to be killed..." - Ghandi   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

2muchbs (414 posts) Dec-16-01, 00:38 AM (ET) Reply to post #66 70. "Sounds good Thor" Id like to know what kind of digital artifacts you would look for? And I do agree that its very likely the tape can be proven to match,or not, earlier Bin Laden tapes. But what if the previous tape was a fake to? Then we would be confirming only that it matched the earlier tape. Id like to know what your into as far as music goes. I am a part time player, but love to put together music. Probably best described as progressive rock highly guitar influenced. Much like Mark Bonnilla. Its great fun.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

mrsleep (36 posts) Dec-15-01, 05:37 PM (ET) Reply to post #8 60. "Yeah, and I LOVE this picture..." Note how CLEARLY you can see hs face http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/14/ret.bin.laden.video/index.html   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Marianne (162 posts) Dec-14-01, 06:42 AM (ET) 22. "What does it matter if it is true or false?" The tape is either a fake, or it is real. If it is fake, it doesn't appear to matter to those in whose minds Bin Laden=evil. Bin Laden is a modern day myth in progress. Like most mythology, he will be granted either super evil status, or super saint/god status. People adamantly believe in a virgin birth, and have done so for almost two thousand years. You cannot tell them otherwise and can argue until the end of time and they will not be convinced. This is the way that mythology works. If the tape is authentic and it is true--same Some very good points are made on this board, but, for me, the forest is obstructed by too many trees. Doesn't hurt to hone one's debating skills and both arguments are presented well. The bottom line for me is that we were strung along for days about this tape--little delectable goodies leaked here and there. The tension builds and then--a controversial analysis. It simply does not matter if it is true or false. It is a piece of propaganda brilliantly used at this point and I question not so much it's authenticity, but the method and purpose of it's release.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

ThorsteinVeblen (1294 posts) Dec-14-01, 06:55 AM (ET) Reply to post #22 23. "Milo - we gotta give it up" LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-01 AT 06:58 AM (ET) to the REALIST in the house. Or is she the REAL nihillist? Whatever she is, I like her... "It simply does not matter if it is true or false." -------------------------------------------- "I suffer snakes to be killed..." - Ghandi   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Merlin (37 posts) Dec-14-01, 07:19 AM (ET) 25. "And now, the BIG question:" How in the hell do people think that this tape helps Bush? Are there actually people on this board who think Bush invented the war? Are there folks here who think this was a wagging dog?That's the only way I can see that Bush gains from releasing this tape. In reality, this is an American thing here, and I'm no gingoist. There are in fact times when an evil enemy rears its head and this is one of them. Bush just happened to be there when the lightening struck. He's scoring runs while he's up to bat. But his inning will end soon. And his act gets very old without a war. If he tries to drag it out, he won't keep the public with him. We're going to get our turn at bat again, and it may be sooner than anyone thinks. The public is very fickle. They will soon grow weary of war. There will be opportunities to focus on stuff like Enron, Asscroft, unpronouncabubles, smirking, the tragic rebirth of the DEFICIT, etc. Meantime, let's keep our sanity.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

EdGy (236 posts) Dec-14-01, 08:33 AM (ET) Reply to post #25 26. "bush track record" For me what's important when thinking about things like this is the track record of the person/administration in question. So let's see: Events surrounding the election in Nov 2000: - lying and spinning - bringing in paid operatives who are portrayed as "voters" who then intimidate vote counters - doing everything they could to disenfranchise as many nonRepubs as possible - I think this list could be expanded quite a bit, everyone on this board is very aware of the lack of integrity, honesty and the willingness to use lies, deceit, and thuggery to accomplish their goals. There's also the track record from January to 9/10. - The lies about the Clinton guys "trashing" the White House etc. (I think there's a whole thread here on Bush lies). Then there's the track record of the people in this administration who were in the Reagan and Bush I administrations: Iran-Contra El Salvador, etc. etc. And of course the way, since 9/11, they have cynically manipulated the tragedy for their own political gains. All of this shows that the people in this administration are and have proved willing to lie, lie and lie, to do basically whatever it takes, however underhanded and cynical, to accomplish there goals... So, given all of that, I certainly am not willing to give the benefit of the doubt to them. I certainly would not see it as outside their pattern of behavior to fabricate something like this, to lie about it, etc. This administration has given me absolutely no reason to trust anything it says. That is not nihilism. That is realism.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Merlin (37 posts) Dec-14-01, 11:34 PM (ET) Reply to post #26 49. "Right you are, but..." EdGy, you are perfectly correct. But that wasn't the question. The question is: how does this tape help Bush (e.g. vis-a-vis the Democrats)? I don't think it does. I think it helps the US position in the world vis-a-vis Islamic militants, but I don't think it does a thing for Bush domestically. I mean, at least 90% of the US public, I'm sure, are totally convinced UBL did it, anyhow. On your point, I agree that we are wise not to trust a single miserable, scum-sucking, fetid, depraved soul in this administration. May I add one more observation. The actions you described are all relatively trivial to pull off. But this tape, if fabricated, would have required a level of skill and subtle intelligence which I don't think their side has the capability of pulling off. It would be a creation requiring far more resources than, say the killing of JFK. And the kind of nuanced direction, acting, settings, scripting, filming, dubbing, voice duplication, casting of doubles, etc. would just be extraordinary to comprehend. I don't know of any director alive today who's not a liberal who could do it; let alone any actors; let alone that they should happen to be doubles.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

NNN0LHI (1077 posts) Dec-14-01, 09:31 AM (ET) 27. "Rather then argue whether or not the tape is authentic or not......" LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-01 AT 09:36 AM (ET) since due to the quality that can never be accomplished. Why not discuss questions that can be qualified such as is this tape actually evidence which would be accepted in a US court of law or not and leave it there? The answer to that question is an absolute no, it could not. There is no one who would be able to testify to the actual chain of custody of this tape, which is required by the courts in our country to place anything into evidence, whether a state or federal US court of law. For instance if one wished to introduce this tape into a court of law we would need to have the person who made the tape testify in open court to that fact. Then you would need to have either that person or someone else who then received custody of the tape to testify that the chain of custody of the tape was unbroken until the US government received the tape into their possession. We have already been told that the tape was found in an abandoned private home, so that fact alone removes all chances of a prosecuter being able to prove the chain of evidence was unbroken and therefore would preclude any chance of this tape ever being admitted into a US court proceding as evidence. So where does this leave us. Well it leaves us discussing a tape of poor quality that is not worth anything. It is is not even worth arguing about whether it is authentic or not. That would only be an exercise in futility, since we are discussing something that does not even exist in the eyes of our court systems. Don   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

ThorsteinVeblen (1294 posts) Dec-14-01, 09:40 AM (ET) Reply to post #27 28. "Don" You are effectively making an argument for Military Tribunals. Assuming Bin Laden is guilty you are making the case that he is beyond prosecution within our civil legal system. By nature of the who he is and the situation surrounding him, Bin Laden becomes impossible to try, even if he is guilty as sin. -------------------------------------------- "I suffer snakes to be killed..." - Ghandi   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

NNN0LHI (1077 posts) Dec-14-01, 10:28 AM (ET) Reply to post #28 31. "Thor" Our bumbling pResident has already ruined any chance of a fair trial in the US for OBL when he went on national television and declared OBL guilty months ago. After that remark by Chimpy, it removed the conerstone of American justice, innocent until proven guilty. Which in effect killed any chance whatsoever of OBL receiving anything close to a fair trial in our court systems. Thereby making it impossible for a prosecuter to have any chance to try and convict OBL for the crime of 9/11. That military tribunal thing is all well and good, providing OBL does not find himself in custody of one of many European countries who would not extradite him to the US for any trial by military tribunal, leaving that country no choice but to either try OBL in their country or turn him over to the Hague for an international tibunal there. Either way, OBL would not be death penalty eligible. And I am afraid that the evidence that would be admissible is either slim or not existent as to prove OBL's guilt. And this fiasco is all the direct result of chimpy's ill advised rhetoric concerning OBL's guilt. And just how many more suspected terrorists will never be extradited to America for trial because of Chimpy's bumbling? We may never know for sure. And that is a scary thought. Don   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

platzjoff (62 posts) Dec-14-01, 10:56 AM (ET) Reply to post #31 33. "you've gotta be kidding" This is WAR!! Nobody wants to "convict" Bin Laden. Did we want to convict Hitler? Did Roosevelt run around saying, "now now boy's, the evidence isn't in yet, so lets not say anything too bad about Adolph; don't want to get people all stirred up against him so that he can't have a fair trial". Wake up.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

NNN0LHI (1077 posts) Dec-14-01, 11:15 AM (ET) Reply to post #33 34. "Listen pal, don't kill the messanger because you don't like the" LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-01 AT 11:20 AM (ET) message. Either address the facts or get off the pot. Screaming "wake up", or "you've gotta be kidding" will get you no where and will never change the facts. Sorry, but I will not get involved in an discussion with someone who seems incapable of analytical thought. Don   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

platzjoff (62 posts) Dec-14-01, 11:24 AM (ET) Reply to post #34 35. "my apologies" Sorry professor, didn't mean to offend your sensibilities. Point #1 -- no one wants to try Bin Laden; we want to kill him. Dems and Repugs acknowledge this. Point #2 -- there is nothing wrong with demonizing your enemy in war.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

AP (132 posts) Dec-14-01, 12:03 PM (ET) Reply to post #35 38. "but" isn't it important to know who your enemies are first? This isn't like Pearl Harbor, and no one has explicitly taken credit.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

platzjoff (62 posts) Dec-14-01, 12:09 PM (ET) Reply to post #38 39. "yes, but" that's the nature of terrorism. If we had to develop evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that would stand up in a court of law before we fought back, we'd NEVER fight back. IMHO, when we get viciously attacked like we did, the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard falls away. And lets be honest with ourselves -- we know he did, and everyone else knows he did it. His business is terrorism, therefore it's time for him to go.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

AP (132 posts) Dec-14-01, 01:06 PM (ET) Reply to post #39 46. "still think killing OBL isn't smart" What was wrong with the Pan Am trial? And I'm not even talking about trials. Don't people want to get the facts about what happened? And then there's politics. I want to be able to vote for the guy who is best able to deal with terrorism. If it turns out that al Quada is a loose organization and that people hatch plots and then inform (don't even request permission) from OBL five days before they carry them out, and that bombing a nation to death and killing the figure-head leader does more damage than good...well, I just want a trial and an investigation of the facts. I want to know what OBL knows. I want to know what Mullah Omar knows. And I want to know who I should vote for next time. It's wrong that an administration can cover its mistakes and make more trouble by killing as many people as possible. That's seems to be how Israel gets itself in deeper and deeper trouble. I think it's no coincidence that this administration is trying to destroy the evidence (Reagan papers -- same thing) and trying to pin the blame on the Clinton administration (without explaining how it's even relevant with real evidence). In fact, it looks like the lady is protesting just a little too much when it comes to shifting the blame to everyone else. Is it that they really don't know what they're doing and they don't really care so long as tensions are escalated and they came justify spending which benefits their benefactors. I don't want them to cover their tracks by killing the one guy who might be used to get the truth about the necessity and repercussions of destroying Afghanistan again.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

NNN0LHI (1077 posts) Dec-14-01, 12:11 PM (ET) Reply to post #35 41. "OK Einstein" Point #1 -- no one wants to try Bin Laden; we want to kill him. Dems and Repugs acknowledge this. This is wonderful, if the US has OBL in custody. Now from my earlier post, what are the Dems and the Repugs going to do if one of the countries in the European Union was to somehow get OBL into their custody. Then what are all those Dems and Repugs going to do when none of those countries are willing to turn him over to us so we can kill him? Maybe jump up and down and get mad about it? Point #2 -- there is nothing wrong with demonizing your enemy in war. Demonizing your enemy is all well and good. But this will not get us any closer to convincing the European Union to change their laws for the USA in this one instance. There are currently throughout Europe many people in custody right now who may have been involved in the attack on 9/11 who will never be extradited to the US because of their laws barring extradition to any country which uses capital punishment. So there would not be any hope for us to get custody of our enemy OBL, if he somehow or other gets into one of those countries custody. So where does that leave us?   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

platzjoff (62 posts) Dec-14-01, 12:20 PM (ET) Reply to post #41 43. "Okay Oppenheimer, here goes" I'd be willing to lay down $1000 that nobody gets him alive. He will be shot trying to "escape", and it wouldn't bother me one bit. IF someone does pick him up (say the Brits), and they can't turn him over, frankly i don't care. Let them deal with him. Either way he's never going to be a free man again. I'd rather see him dead, but rotting in solitary for the next 30+ is a close second. As for the rest of the Katzenjammer (sp?) Kids that make up his goofy little army, same thing applies. If the EU catches them, but can't turn them over, let THEM deal with them. I think its a safe assumption they won't let them out anytime soon.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

NNN0LHI (1077 posts) Dec-14-01, 12:31 PM (ET) Reply to post #43 44. "I hope your right Edison" I really do. Don   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

platzjoff (62 posts) Dec-14-01, 12:34 PM (ET) Reply to post #44 45. "well......" Had to try a couple dozen times to get that light bulb thing down pat, but it worked eventually..........   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

rock (150 posts) Dec-15-01, 10:16 AM (ET) Reply to post #33 53. "Did we want to convict Hitler?" Please note that we did try his cronies after the war. And perhaps the most important point I could make would be that it was in public. Pivate trials have no chance of being fair.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

platzjoff (62 posts) Dec-15-01, 12:50 PM (ET) Reply to post #53 58. "yes," and as I recall, didn't we EXECUTE them??? And is anyone arguing that that was overly barbaric???? I'm not.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

poofer (6 posts) Dec-14-01, 10:03 AM (ET) Reply to post #27 30. "TAPE AUTHENTICY" You said it all NNNOLHI   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

DoveTurnedHawk (108 posts) Dec-15-01, 00:58 AM (ET) Reply to post #27 51. "Tape Would Be Admissible" Don, I actually wanted to address this back on the other thread, but they locked it by the time I got there. Chain of custody is not the end-all and be-all, when it comes to admissibility. Certain evidence speaks for itself, including recordings. The key factor is whether sufficient indicia of reliability exist that make the evidence worthy of consideration. Generally, you should obtain the original of a recording whenever possible. But when that is not possible, under the Federal Rules of Evidence: The original is not required, and other evidence of the contents of a writing, recording, or photograph is admissible if: (1) Originals lost or destroyed. All originals are lost or have been destroyed, unless the proponent lost or destroyed them in bad faith; or (2) Original not obtainable. No original can be obtained by any available judicial process or procedure; or (3) Original in possession of opponent. At a time when an original was under the control of the party against whom offered, that party was put on notice, by the pleadings or otherwise, that the contents would be a subject of proof at the hearing, and that party does not produce the original at the hearing; or (4) Collateral matters. The writing, recording, or photograph is not closely related to a controlling issue. Clearly, even if the tape found in Afghanistan was not the original, the duplicate would still be allowed under the above rules. Compare this to the situation where a prosecutor is mailed an anonymous tape recording. If the tape is adjudged to be reliable, then it will most likely be admitted. Sure, the defense would get to rake this tape over the coals, examine it for defects and changes, and impeach its value by calling it into question the same way many people are doing so on this board. But assuming there were no technical defects, and that the translation was mostly accurate, odds are it would still be admitted. The jury would be allowed to decide for itself how much value it should be accorded, and if the jury is a reasonable cross-section of the American public, my guess is that they would accord it a great deal of weight indeed. DTH   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

CatWoman (2061 posts) Dec-14-01, 11:27 AM (ET) 36. "Just thought I'd add my 1 cent worth" Some View Tape With Skepticism 'There Are Too Many Open Questions' By Hanna Rosin Washington Post Staff Writer Friday, December 14, 2001; Page A32 In the Albelad market in Cleveland, the Abu Dhabi TV news station is always on, and it gets the customers talking. Yesterday, there was only one thing to talk about: the Osama bin Laden videotape, mostly what was suspicious about it. "You can't hear the Arabic too well. Who knows what they're actually saying?" said the day's first customer, a Lebanese man who bought chocolate bars, owner Ameen Hammad recalled. The second customer, an Iraqi, thought the dialogue must have been fabricated, dubbed onto an old home video of bin Laden having dinner. "It just doesn't make sense," said Hammad, echoing the day's chorus. "Why would he just sit there and talk about it, and leave the tape lying around?" http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40846-2001Dec13.html No one can make you feel inferior without your permission -- Eleanor Roosevelt Restore Gore in 2004   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

AP (132 posts) Dec-14-01, 11:59 AM (ET) 37. "Suspicious elements of the tape?" Although I am inclined to believe the tape is genuine (but neither surprising, a smoking gun, nor very helpful to anyone who is really interested in how 9-11 happened or how the next one might happen), I did overhear a seemingly sensible muslim person talking about it. This person was curious about a few elements: - that it was odd that there were no closeups up OBL, however, every other time they panned to the Saudi guy the camera zoomed into his face; - that it was odd that, granted these are devout muslims, they would sit around talking about things they all knew about the history of Islam as if to lecture each other (especially considering OBL's time must have been precious in November) -- it was more like a lesson for viewers meant to stoke outrage by Catholics and Jews, as some of the history related to those religions; - that the guy on the tape had an upturned nose and OBL has a down-turned nose; also OBL has a distinctive clear patch of skin between his beard and mustache on his cheeks and it was very hard to tell from the tapes if it was present... Although I don't agree with the suspicions, thought it would be interesting to mention...   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Q (609 posts) Dec-14-01, 12:10 PM (ET) Reply to post #37 40. "The tape has served..." ...its purpose for the Bush Admin. - The middle east is exploding... - Nuclear powers fighting... - Missle Defense failure... - Executive privilege misused - GWB running a government in secret - Enron in the shitter - And the press is concentrating on The Tape...playing it over and over again with GWB providing 'we'll get em' commentary. -   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

TNOE (235 posts) Dec-14-01, 12:18 PM (ET) 42. "Something to Ponder - More Contradictions" http://www.angelfire.com/ab6/waragainstislam/contradiction.htm   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

2muchbs (414 posts) Dec-14-01, 08:28 PM (ET) Reply to post #42 48. "Some other interesting thoughts :" Assuming the tape is real, it does lend itself to binny being a second man in charge. But more interesting to me, if it is real, is the fact that even Bin Laded did not think the building should have completely collapsed. Now my opinion. I think its faked, and Ill tell you why. Most of you know I am an engineer. And have said many times before that the steel in the building will not melt by kerosene based jet fuels. And I have invited anybody to prove it to themselves by testing. There are several different (cracks/refinements) of jet fuel and all of them are designed to be very stable. You can easily test this with a even more volatile fuel, a regular kerosene you can buy at the hardware store. Put a few ounces in a cup and take a match to it. Most often the match will be put out by the kerosene. You can take a piece of 1020 mild steel and try to melt it with kerosene, and you will not be able to create enough heat to even weaken it by very much. I dont care how much jet fuel you have or how much free atmosphere is available. It will not ever develop more than about 1600 degress even under ideal circumstances. Now take the buildings as a example. Most of the jet fuel was consumed (oxydized)outside the building. Surely everybody remembers the giant orange fire ball. That was the consumption of the fuel with the 21 percent oxygen present in the atmosphere. Inside the building was a totaly different story. The oxygen was quickly used up, and very little effective heat could then be produced. This is clearly evident by the fact that the incandescent carbon particles (flame) had ended and the thick black smoke began as the fire became very inefficient. This result is not nearly enough to even get close to weakening a 1020 mild steal beam of 2 inches thick, by 48 inches across. Anybody could prove me correct by taking even a small section of one of the beams, suspend the ends, and place a weight on it. Then fill a trough of fuel below it and see that the beam will not fail. No matter how long you let it sit in the oxygen and fuel rich environment (unlike inside the building)you will never be able to make enough heat to weaken the beam by more than a few percent. I know I will get stomped on this issue, but thought many of you would like to hear this. And if anybody realy wants to test the theory Id be glad to help set up the test. I already know the results. So I have nothing to fear. Moving on a little. We are to think that Bin Laden was a great engineer correct? If so, Why would he think that the fuel would bring down the building at all? Or melt steel? Sounds to me like the gov made that part up so we can easily by the story the buildings were not blown up. If he was that good he would never had based the potential disaster on the fuel in the planes. And if he is so good why did he not think the buildings would fall completely? Because they shouldnt have? I think this tape looks fake from all sides. Why would a guy we have been claiming is so carefull as a terrorist leave behind so much incriminating evidence? Maybe sometime soon we will see the reason why this tape was planted, or maybe they will prove it real. I welcome that also.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

platzjoff (62 posts) Dec-15-01, 12:45 PM (ET) Reply to post #48 57. "There's a lot to read here..." But are you trying to say that the buildings weren't brought down by the planes? That bombs were also used? If so, how come every film i've seen shows the buildings collapsing from the top, and then cascading down? And if this was some grand conspiracy to use bombs AND planes, why do both? why not just use bombs?   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

2muchbs (414 posts) Dec-15-01, 06:03 PM (ET) Reply to post #57 63. "what I am saying is that it doesnt add up." but now that youve gone there, Ill eloborate. The films you see on TV are all cropped now. They have been for months. I have a earlier film that looks to show explosions lower in the building than the collapse. Id be glad to get it to someome here who is an expert and could enhance it to see for sure. Ive offered that before. Im not saying anthing happened for sure, just giving some thoughts from my perspective. As for reasons to bring down the buildings, I can think of many. If the buildings did not collapse there would have been much evidence to sift through inside the buildings. body parts, teeth, bones of the people on the planes would have made real identities well known. Maybe someone did not want us to find out what was actualy on those planes? After the buildings dropped, there was very little evidence that could be identified as being on the planes. Except for the magic passport. This story should not make sense to anyone. A passport makes it out of a train wreck and furious initial fire but the very steel that resisted the impact in the first place is a wet noodle under the same stress? I was just trying to give my real opinion as a engineer. Many so called experts had said that the steel beams melted at 1500 degrees. Thats just absolute crap. It would take about 5600 degrees to melt it. You can check this out yourself. That info is very available. In my opinion they werent experts but actors. Just calling a duck a duck. I hope to help thats all.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

markedgarowens (3 posts) Dec-15-01, 09:49 AM (ET) 52. "left-handed Bin Laden eats and drinks with right hand?" LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-01 AT 09:55 AM (ET) I noticed this while watching the tape on http://www.cnn.com, and I thought it was worth mentioning. According to fbi.gov, Osama Bin Laden is left-handed: http://www.fbi.gov/mostwant/topten/fugitives/laden.htm If you watch the tape, you will see that Bin Laden consistently eats with his right hand and lifts his cup with his right hand. Here's a picture: I don't know what this proves exactly, but I thought it was a little bit strange, because, as a right-handed person, I would never consider using my left hand for eating or drinking. Even if the cup I'm drinking from is on my left hand side, I would reach over with my right hand to get it, and Bin Laden's cup and plate was right in front of him. Is there anything I'm missing? (I currently base this on the first part of the video, only, haven't had time to look through the last one yet) Just wanted to share this, I hope it's not old news. I've tried to read through all the threads on the tape, but there may have been some messages that I've missed. Mark Edgar Owens http://evilidealism.net   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

markedgarowens (3 posts) Dec-15-01, 10:57 AM (ET) Reply to post #52 56. "Hmm.. Maybe I'm wasting your time" I guess I jumped the gun a little with that information on Bin Laden eating with his right hand despite the fact that he's lefthanded, so I'm replying to myself before anyone else does. I discussed this with a journalist and he claimed that in Islam, the left hand is considered 'unclean' and will never be used for eating, even if you're left-handed. I'm no expert on Islam, but I guess this should have occurred to me. Sorry to waste your time. Cheers. Mark Edgar Owens http://evilidealism.net   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

2muchbs (414 posts) Dec-15-01, 06:07 PM (ET) Reply to post #56 64. "No time wasted" Welcome! And for sure, bring on anything you think is out of place. We need as much as we can get. Good eyes!   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

rock (150 posts) Dec-15-01, 10:28 AM (ET) 54. "Can anyone say" Alien Autopsy?   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Duvenoy (90 posts) Dec-15-01, 07:08 PM (ET) Reply to post #54 67. "Thank you 2muchbs" I was wondering when someone would pick up on the melting point of mild steel. I've done a lot of welding for many years (certified) and spent some years as a millwright in an iron foundry. If you want to melt steel with normal, atmoshperic oxygen percentages, jet fuel is not the way to go. Even with forced draft kerosene torches like a Hauck Burner, you will barely get it red hot, and that takes some time. The madman bin Ladin, coming from a construction family, should know this. Do I think that the tape's the McCoy? I'm reserving judgment, although it all begins to smell a little of fish. This has been an excellent discussion! f "The more I learn about people, the better I like Rattlesnakes!"   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

2muchbs (414 posts) Dec-15-01, 07:27 PM (ET) Reply to post #67 68. "No thank you DUVENOY" I have been waiting for anybody with working knowledge to stand up and confirm what I have been saying for several months. I thank you immensely! Lets get some truth out. Glad to have you here!!   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

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