156||0|0yes
0|0|The temperature of the fire in the WTC|Punkcow||14:21:45|02/17/2003|what was the temperature of the fire in the WTC on the 9%2F11%3F
1|1|.|FlowerChildVictim||14:43:32|02/17/2003|No exact %23s but estimated to be upwards of 2000 degrees Fahrenheit.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DPeace in our time%21 -- Neville Chamberlain%5B%2Ffont%5D|0
2|2|What%27s...|Punkcow||14:52:07|02/17/2003|... the temperature of burning kerosene%3F|1
4|3|burning kerosene|plaguepuppy||16:25:09|02/17/2003|Actually there is no single temperature that kerosene will burn at - it varies according to how finely it is atomized and how well it is mixed with air.  Depending on composition %28kerosene is a mix of different hydrocarbons%29 the flash point%2C i.e. the temperature it will actually ignite at%2C can range from 114%B0 to 167%B0 %28http%3A%2F%2Fwww.galcit.caltech.edu%2FEDL%2Fpublications%2Freprints%2Fflash.pdf%29.  That means that in a very oxygen-poor environment it could smoulder at close to those temperatures.  On the other hand in a jet engine with optimal atomization and mixing and compression of the fuel-air mixture you can create temperatures well over 1000%B0C.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe issue with jet fuel in the WTC towers is not so much how hot it burned%2C since FEMA says it was consumed in a few minutes %28http%3A%2F%2Fwww.house.gov%2Fscience%2Fhot%2Fwtc%2Fwtc-report%2FWTC_ch2.pdf%29%2C but how much of the buildings%27 contents were ignited by it and how much heat they were able to generate.  That is discussed in the FEMA report%2C but did not involve detailed modeling of the fire.  Things like spatial distribution of the fire and air flow are crucial in determining just how much heat was generated where.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe NIST study %28http%3A%2F%2Fwtc.nist.gov%2Fmedia%2Fprogress_report.htm%29%2C now underway%2C intends to develop a more detailed computer model of the fires.%0D%0A%0D%0AAs someone who does not believe that the plane damage and fires alone can explain the way the towers collapsed%2C my biggest problem with the fires is that they got air almost exclusively from around the edges%2C yet are claimed to have generated enough heat to severely soften the core columns.  There were fire shutters on each floor to keep the elevator and utility shafts of the core from acting as air vents or chimnies%2C so the oxygen and most of the heat generated would be around the edges%2C far from the core.%0D%0A%0D%0AIn both collapses there is sudden and catastrophic failure of the core%2C with the 47 columns essentially telescoping on their own lengths%2C something that would require heating long sections of those columns to at least 1400%B0F.  Here%27s a bit of background on the core%3A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D5438%26forum%3DDCForumID43%26omm%3D71%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bfont color%3Dblue%5D%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fhome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2F666bush2.gif%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DWill our children be sacrificial lambs offered up%0D%0Ato ease the fears of multinational corporations%0D%0Alike so many brainwashed media zombies%3F%0D%0APetroleum and its byproducts should not be a dependency%0D%0Ain a technology-based society.  Nothing lasts forever%2C %0D%0Aand we cannot ask God for our gasoline.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dred%5D%5Blink%3Aimages.indymedia.org%2Fimc%2Fontario%2Frise_robots_rise_-_rise_robots_rise_-_03_-_flowers_and_birds.mp3%7C%22Flowers and Birds%22%5D by Rise Robots Rise%2C 1991%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Blink%3Awww.daveyd.com%2Fparistrack.mp3%7CParis%3A What Would You Do%3F%5D%0D%0A %5Blink%3Aimages.indymedia.org%2Fimc%2Fontario%2Fronny_cox_-_cowboy_savant_-_13_-_from_the_dust.mp3%7CRonny Cox%3A From the Dust%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Blink%3Ahome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2Fwsb%2Fhtml%2Fview.cgi-home.html-.html%7CPlaguepuppy%27s Homepage%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D|2
5|4|Yes...|acerbic||16:43:10|02/17/2003|%5Bi%5DOn the other hand in a jet engine with optimal atomization and mixing and compression of the fuel-air mixture you can create temperatures well over 1000%B0C.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A3000%B0F %28about 1650%B0C%29 is indeed well over 1000%B0C.|4
34|5|Could we all agree|Endimion||16:27:39|02/21/2003|what kind of temperature scale should we use%3F%0D%0AConverting Fahrenheit to Celsius and opposite is boring.%0D%0AI vote for Celsius.%0D%0ANot meaning any disregards to America%2C but why does this country always have to have different scales and %22defaults%22%3F%0D%0AThe whole world is using Celsius.%0D%0AEvery country has 220 V%2C 50 Hz AC electrical current. America%3A 120V%2C 60 Hz.%0D%0AThe whole world uses SI-units.%0D%0Aetc.%0D%0AJust America has to be different.%0D%0A%0D%0AAgain%2C no disrespect.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bb%5DEvil piggies are everywhere...BEWARE%5B%2Fb%5D %5B%2Ffont%5D|5
35|6|No%2C let%27s use both|acerbic||16:35:45|02/21/2003|%5Bi%5Dwhat kind of temperature scale should we use%3F Converting Fahrenheit to Celsius and opposite is boring.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AWhen you try to enhance the impression that some temperature is relatively low%2C use Celsius and of course in the opposite case Fahrenheit. %3A-%29|34
54|7|No%2C I will not do such thing|Endimion||14:45:33|02/23/2003|cause I am not using such foolish expressions as some people here do.%0D%0A...%0D%0A...%0D%0AOh%2C I almost forgot.%0D%0A%3A-%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bb%5DEvil piggies are everywhere...BEWARE%5B%2Fb%5D %5B%2Ffont%5D|35
46|6|Good point|plaguepuppy||12:37:15|02/22/2003|The switching back and forth does introduce an unnecessary element of confusion%2C and since it was the %5Bb%5DWorld%5B%2Fb%5D Trade Center the Celsius scale is appropriate.%0D%0A%0D%0AYes we have to be different and a little perverse%2C us and Britain.  Do I see a pattern here%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd only in America is there no such as longitudinal scalar waves %28just kidding - Endimion has a phobia of thinking about Tesla weapons%29%21  We don%27t need no steekin%27 compressional waves of the spacetime medium%2C nossir%21%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bfont color%3Dblue size%3D1%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DWill our children be sacrificial lambs offered up%0D%0Ato ease the fears of multinational corporations%0D%0Alike so many brainwashed media zombies%3F%0D%0APetroleum and its byproducts should not be a dependency%0D%0Ain a technology-based society.  Nothing lasts forever%2C %0D%0Aand we cannot ask God for our gasoline.%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dred%5D%5Blink%3Aimages.indymedia.org%2Fimc%2Fontario%2Frise_robots_rise_-_rise_robots_rise_-_03_-_flowers_and_birds.mp3%7C%22Flowers and Birds%22%5D by Rise Robots Rise%2C 1991%0D%0A%5Blink%3Awww.daveyd.com%2Fparistrack.mp3%7CParis%3A What Would You Do%3F%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Blink%3Ahome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2Fwsb%2Fhtml%2Fview.cgi-home.html-.html%7CPlaguepuppy%27s Homepage%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D|34
55|7|Hehe%2C I was just going to propose something|Endimion||16:37:59|02/23/2003|I think it would be really useful if we would write the temperature like this%3A%0D%0At%3Dnumber%B0C %28number%B0F%29%0D%0A%0D%0AWell maybe we should ALL be in the same position.%0D%0ALet%27s use Kelvin scale.%0D%0AIt would be boring for everyone%2C but at least there wouldn%27t be such confusion and optical illusions %28this instantly happens to me when someone uses Fahrenheit%2C no matter how hard I try to avoid it%29.%0D%0AIt is the best temperature scale of all.%0D%0AApproved by Le Systeme International d%27Unit%E8s in 1960.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5D...and since it was the World Trade Center the Celsius scale is appropriate.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AYes%2C that was indeed a large mix of many companies that employed people of many nations.%0D%0ABut since 9%2F11%2C it seems to me that USA really grealty usurps WTC. In Europe is a completely different situation. Europeans are talking like they don%27t want to have anything with it.%0D%0AI%27ve heard people %28not just Croatians%29 saying something like%3A %22SCR%2Aw Americans%2C they lost 2 skyscrapers and now they want to conquer the world%21%22%0D%0AThat is a direct effect of Bush politics.%0D%0APlus%2C there are repulsive feelings towards the skyscrapers as structures. Personaly%2C I think it is because first common residential skyscrapers were naked concrete%2Fwhite boxes%2C going up only %7E15 floors. They were stealing sunlight.%0D%0AToday these structures look sad. Their facade falls down in chunks and crushes cars.%0D%0AHere I%27m talking about something else.%0D%0AWell if I already started...%0D%0A%0D%0AThis really happens. There is one tower in my country that is called %22The Tower Of Death%22. It is a 25-fl high skyscraper built in early 70%27s. Back at that time%2C people were curious about life inside. They liked the %22biodome%22 effect.%0D%0ABut in first few years%2C lousy concrete become dark and started to fall down. Together with 5%27%27 thick%2C 9.8%27 high decorative concrete slabs %28that is HEAVY%29 that were hanging on the skyscraper%2C stretching full-height %28don%27t ask me what puddin-head drew the blueprints%2C I have no idea%29.%0D%0ASo one day while there were strong winds%2C one slab from THE TOP failed and fell down from 80 meters %28262%2C5%27%29 on a nearby car and crushed it almost completely. Few hours later%2C 2 more fell. One more next day.%0D%0AWhole bearing walls were cracked. Facade was falling down in large 1%27%27 thick pieces. One of three elevators snapped %28luckily%2C empty%29 and slided down. The other one is not working.%0D%0ASo 500 people are using one elevator.%0D%0AIt is not all that bad. Construction workers came and put some concrete. %3Ashrug%3A%0D%0AForgive me if I %28again%2C %3A-%29 %29 started whining%2C but I am just explaining why most people hate skyscrapers in smaller European cities.%0D%0AModern office towers came later%2C but the feeling stayed.%0D%0AI have the privilege to like tall structures.%0D%0A%3A-%29%0D%0AMaybe I whine cause my country is f%2A%2A%2A%2A%2A up.%0D%0AI don%27t know....%0D%0A%0D%0AAbout Tesla weapons.%0D%0AIt%27s not like I hate it%2C I just find it very mysterious. Too wild to think about it.%0D%0APlus I don%27t know how spacetime could be bulged. I thought only massive objects with their vibrating can produce it.%0D%0AAnd maybe CERN.%0D%0AGravity waves exist and they have their particle with a cute name - gravitino.%0D%0ABut%2C like I always say%2C evil piggies are everywhere%2C and we may not be acquainted with everything.%0D%0AProbability says that things worse that MiB can exist.%0D%0AIt is on us to investigate it.%0D%0A%28wait%2C this is a stupid sentence%3B we can%27t do anything about it%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bb%5DEvil piggies are everywhere...BEWARE%5B%2Fb%5D %5B%2Ffont%5D|46
99|6|I agree|bpilgrim||14:16:37|03/07/2003|let%27s make that the standard here at least.%0D%0A%0D%0Aany american who wants it in f can convert them and post them seperately if need be.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3Ahi%3A%0D%0A%0D%0Apeace%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D--%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fglobalfreepress.org%2Fimages%2FDr.Stranglove--8.jpg%0D%0A%22The only true wisdom consists in knowing that you know nothing%22 Socrates%0D%0A%0D%0ASend an email blast to the media today%21%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fglobalfreepress.com%2Fmedia_blast.pl%0D%0A%0D%0Aalso check out a REAL free press...%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fnews.globalfreepress.com%5B%2Ffont%5D|34
3|1|It had to exceed 1400 degrees|Nicholas_J||15:21:29|02/17/2003|For the floors to pancake...%0D%0A%0D%0AThey did not weld the girders togetther in the WTC but used bolts%2C because it was discovered that the new trussing designs would not hold. THe bolts needed 1400 degrees before the bolts would soften and then each floor drop onto the lower|0
56|2|Interested...|Endimion||16:39:49|02/23/2003|Combined with assimetry of the fire...%0D%0AWhy doesn%27t the Lar-gang comment this%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bb%5DEvil piggies are everywhere...BEWARE%5B%2Fb%5D %5B%2Ffont%5D|3
6|1|I%27m interested in the subterranean fires that burned 100 days|abeing||16:47:00|02/17/2003|They were so hot that there was no way to put them out.  How a plane crashing into the building 80 stories up could cause fires burning for literally months is to my mind the central flaw in all conventional explanations for WTC.  |0
7|2|I%27m interested in where you learned about|acerbic||17:03:36|02/17/2003|...subterranean fires that burned 100 days and were so hot that there was no way to put them out. It%27s difficult to imagine %5Bb%5Danything%5B%2Fb%5D that could cause something like that%2C so before further speculating it would be useful to know if that came just from someone%27s imagination or some misunderstanding.|6
10|3|While I share many of ....|DeadBroke||19:09:19|02/17/2003|.... plaguepuppy%27s concerns and sincerly admire his diligence and the efforts both pro and con of others I lack any formal engineering education and can only speak from 30 years of firefighting and NYC union ironworking experiences where I witnessed%2C experienced%2C and perhaps even caused building collapses. %0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s my belief that to properly understand why one building did collapse is to first understand why another building did not collapse. %0D%0A%0D%0ASo%2C let%27s first look at one that did not collapse. Almost 60 years ago%2C on the foggy morning of 7-28-45 a B-25 bomber traveling at more than 250 mph flew into the 79th floor of the Empire State Building. It had taken off from Bedford%2C Mass and was headed for Newark%2C NJ. It was in the air for less than 1 hour and had consumed less than 1%2F4 of it%27s gasoline when it struck. %0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s fuel started raging fires%2C it%27s impact destroyed and bent structural steel columns and beams%2C and the incident literally shook the building%3B but it remained standing%2C only experiencing what occupants described as swaying. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe Empire State Building stood because the structural steel frame%2C the 3-D rectangular grid of columns and beams dampened the shock%2C and also completely withstood the rapid transfer of loads and weight from fire and impact damaged steel members onto undamaged ones. Simply stated%2C the number of columns present%2C or what we ironworkers call structural redundancy%2C held the floors above the impact area of the Empire State Building up. The floor weight that a failed damaged column held up was easily transfered to over to the next stable undamaged column.  %0D%0A%0D%0AThis didn%27t happen at the Trade Center%3B it quite frankly couldn%27t happen at the Trade Center. The floors were not supported by 3-D rectangular grids of steel columns and beams that could accept the rapid transfer of loads and weight - just trusses%2C trusses that were only connected to the outer wall and inner core. There was no true redundancy. %0D%0A%0D%0AWhen the load of a floor pushes down on a truss all the load supported by that truss is transfered to just 2 points%2C the ends of the truss where it connects. But when the load of a floor pushes down on a row of multiple or redundant columns and beams all the load supported by the row of multiple or redundant columns and beams is transfered to all the multiple connections. %0D%0A%0D%0AThere%27s 3 floor loads%3B dead load%2C live load%2C and dynamic load. Multiple or redundant columns and beams supporting a floor will easily accept the tranfers of loads and weight as a load changes from live to dynamic during catastrophic events where one or more columns fail. But floors supported by trusses lack that redundancy and can not support dynamic loads. Firefighters are now trained not to enter burning buildings with truss roofs. Many states require signs identifying truss roofed buildings for firefighter safety. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe truss floors of the Trade Center failed from dynamic loads.  %0D%0A%0D%0AAs far as fire heat and air feeding the fires it is important to understand that a small everyday mattress fire in a second floor bedroom rapidly sucks air past fiefighters as they open the front door. Fire pulls air from any and all directions. Before fire helmets with earflaps and hoods became popular and mandatory a firefighter could locate fires and sense dangerous backdraft and flashover situations with%2C believe it or not%2C his ears. Cool air being pulled towards a hot fire would race past his ears. The openings in the walls of the Trade Center created by the airplanes offered an endless supply of air.   |7
25|4|FYI|ArkDem||16:30:38|02/19/2003|A fully loaded B-25 weighed in at about 27%2C100 lbs. with only a few hundred gallons of gasoline. A Boeing 767 weights 450%2C000 lbs. while carrying 23%2C980 gals %28191%2C840 lbs.%29 of kerosene.%0D%0A%0D%0ANot much of a comparison.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DStrange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.  Supreme executive power derives from a %0D%0A    mandate from the masses%2C not from some farcical aquatic ceremony. -- Dennis%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|10
27|5|Agree ..|DeadBroke||17:50:23|02/19/2003|... 100%25. I%27m not comparing planes%2C just the steel column rendundancies of the two buildings. The redundant columns in the Empire State held up the floors above the B-25%27s impact and fires%2C but the Trade Center did not have a similar redundancy. |25
36|4|IMHO|Endimion||17:14:50|02/21/2003|The EBS would %28if not instantly%29%2C collapse in first 5-10 minutes.%0D%0AIt is a heavy%2C robust%2C old-type building. Too conventional. I once asked the web service how much does it sway and they answered me it is mesaurable in few inches. BULLSHIT.%0D%0AThat is just pure ethnocentrism. Such building is acting %22loose%22 in high winds. I know it cause someone I know was there during strong winds%2C and said to me that impulses can be sensed easily.%0D%0AI don%27t know were there thicker%2Fslimmer columns in ESB%2C but what I do know is that there were PLENTY of them. Simply%2C your comparison has no sense.%0D%0AOnly fire would not destroy the building%2C but a B767 would cause it to fail. Try to imagine that. I bet you are not thinking about imploding now.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DSimply stated%2C the number of columns present%2C or what we ironworkers call structural redundancy%2C held the floors above the impact area of the Empire State Building up.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0ANo%2C the small damage was the main reason why it remained standing.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DThis didn%27t happen at the Trade Center%3B it quite frankly couldn%27t happen at the Trade Center. The floors were not supported by 3-D rectangular grids of steel columns and beams that could accept the rapid transfer of loads and weight - just trusses%2C trusses that were only connected to the outer wall and inner core. There was no true redundancy.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AThis seriously makes me doubt about your %22ironworker%22 career.%0D%0AHow can you say there was not a true redundancy%3F%3F%3F%0D%0AThose buildings were among best examples of it%2C for God sake%21%0D%0ADid you know that in 1993 bombing 40%25 %28%5Bb%5DYES%2C FORTY PERCENT%5B%2FB%5D%29 of the core was destroyed%21%0D%0ANow imagine a blasted core with only 60%25 of the columns functioning %28EXCLUDING the columns with shifted position%2C and buckled ones%29 that has to carry the whole friggin tower above%21%0D%0AAnd you call that false redundancy%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DWhen the load of a floor pushes down on a truss all the load supported by that truss is transfered to just 2 points%2C the ends of the truss where it connects.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AWho says the whole floor detached%3F%0D%0AThat is utterly stupid idea.%0D%0AFYI%2C there were lots of trusses%2C main%2C transferse%2C backup%2C etc. which formed a floor like a stretched net. That is redundant.%0D%0AThe floors were not just tootpicks orientated in one direction.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DThe truss floors of the Trade Center failed from dynamic loads.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AYou really believe the WHOLE floor %28I advise you to observe the floor truss plan%29 could instantly detach%3F%0D%0AWell how%3F%3F%0D%0AIt should be a highly assimetrical event which would %28in WTC1%29 leave the top standing for a while%2C and in WTC2 the core would tild%2C and later buckle and topple.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DThe openings in the walls of the Trade Center created by the airplanes offered an endless supply of air.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0ANot exactly correct.%0D%0AWe saw smouldering%2C soot%2C thick black smoke. If you are really are a firefighter%2C then you should know that it means the lack of O2.%0D%0AAnd the contents were not there forever. It couldn%27t burn all the time cause it would eventually burn out. The kerosene flamed out.%0D%0AI could write more about this%2C but I am travelling somewhere and I have to pack my stuff.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0Ap.s.%3A can you esplain us some of your %22flashover%22 situations%3F%0D%0A      It would be useful. Plus it could explain something I saw%0D%0A      in WTC.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bb%5DEvil piggies are everywhere...BEWARE%5B%2Fb%5D %5B%2Ffont%5D|10
41|5|No disrespect ...|DeadBroke||21:24:15|02/21/2003|... Endimion but the floors of Trade Center simply had no structural redundancy similar to that in Empire State Building. %0D%0A%0D%0AUnlike the Trade Center much of the floorspace of the Empire State Building was comsumed by columns. Everywhere you looked there was a column. The redundancy of these columns and beams held up the floors above the impact and fire. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe floorspace of the Trade Center had no columns - absolutley no columns. The first thing everyone new to renovation work at the Trade Center noticed when they stepped from the service elevator was the absence of columns. Next%2C they would look up and be in awe of the sixty foot long and three foot high trusses. These two sights always shocked both my young and old brother and sister union ironworkers on their first day of work at the Trade Center because they had grown accustomed to working on traditional jobs and seeing columns every twenty or so feet - accustomed to seeing a traditional redundant steel framing system of columns and beams - that Trade Center did not have.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat the Trade Center had were trusses. Main trusses were only connected to the core and to the outer wall%2C so all floorloads were transfered to the core and outer wall. Had there been a traditional 3D redundant system of columns and beams the floorloads would have been transfered to 5 times as many points - and not as easily affected by dynamic loads. %0D%0A%0D%0AI saw the blast damage caused on 2-26-93. 40 percent of the core was not destroyed. The blast occured under the Vista Hotel in a parking level between Tower 1 and Tower 2. The damaged columns were on level B-1 and B-2. I counted seven on B-1 and eight maybe nine on B-2 %28which became known as ground zero%29. The cores were unaffected.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe black smoke seen on 9-11 was evidence of a mostly fuel enriched or hydrocarbon fire. Your soot and thick black smoke is incompletely burned fuel%2C not an oxygen starved fire.%0D%0A%0D%0AOn a more personal note I%27d like to inform you that I have made every effort to treat everyone here at DU%2C irregardless of their views and opinions%2C in a manner that I would like to be treated - with honesty and respect. I believe that it would be to your advantage to polietely state your disagreement and refrain from using terms like stupid and from using not so subtle %22quotation marks%22 to voice your opposition. Just a tip from an old ironworker and firefighter.%0D%0A%0D%0A|36
57|6|I don%27t want to be your enemy|Endimion||18:34:25|02/23/2003|I see that you%27re smarter than some folks here.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5Dthe floors of Trade Center simply had no structural redundancy similar to that in Empire State Building%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AAha%2C well that%27s something different. I like the word %22similar%22.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DThe redundancy of these columns and beams held up the floors above the impact and fire.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AYes%2C in 1945.%0D%0AImagine a B767 plunging in it. The impact hole and damage produces a heck more weight for columns to handle.%0D%0AEven %22official%22 investigators admit it-the Towers remained standing ONLY because of their design.%0D%0AESB would quickly fail.%0D%0AI was thinking something about Sears Tower.%0D%0A%0D%0AAttention%21%3A the following text is for conspiracy nutcakers only. %3Adunce%3A%0D%0AThe Gang %28 %3Asilly%3A %2C %3Acrazy%3A %2C %3Afreak%3A etc.%29%2C is asked to skip this in order to save their physical health.%0D%0AThank you.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt is likely that there is going to be an attack.%0D%0AIn case the government is NOT involved%2C mild damage will be applied cause those Iraqi folks are not powerfull enough.%0D%0ADestruction will occur if they have a good plan and money%2C which I think is highly incredible.%0D%0AIn case the government IS involved %28of course%2C together with Iraqi terrorists%29%2C there will be a mild damage in order to scare the citizens and increase the%0D%0Aanti-arabic kohesion among the people.%0D%0AComplete destruction will be taken in consideration only in case Saddam uses VX%2Fsarin%2Fetc%2C or in case of WW3.%0D%0ANow we have a problem. Imagine we just have the information about destruction of Sears tower. Even if we knew the level of damage %28mild%2Fcomplete%29%2C we still couldn%27t say who %22disabled%22 it.%0D%0AI wouldn%27t like it to happen because%3A%0D%0A1%29poor victims%2C of course. I am sensitive%2C too.%0D%0A2%29new threads for Sears tower%0D%0AI don%27t know how the heck could we discuss so many themes.%0D%0AThe point about Sears Tower is could it survive the %22official%22 attack by plane.%0D%0AI%27d really like to have a blueprint. But as I see%2C it is a secret.%0D%0AThis is everything I know about it%3A%0D%0AMade from 9 tubes. Each tube is like a small WTC tower - perimeter columns and a core. 2 tubes stop at 50th floor%2C 2 at 66th%2C 3 at 90th%2C 2 at 110th floor.%0D%0A443m high%2C 68 m wide.%0D%0AThat%27s it.%0D%0AI can%27t say is this true and could it survive the impact.%0D%0AIf anyone has blueprints%2C let me know.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DMain trusses were only connected to the core and to the outer wall%2C so all floorloads were transfered to the core and outer wall.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0ABut I said that there were not just those columns. They had transverse trusses%2C too. The floor was light%2C but not so redundancy impaired. There were lots of connections. You should download Chapter2 from FEMA %28www.fema.gov%2Flibrary%2Fwtcstudy.shtm%29 to see some pictures.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DHad there been a traditional 3D redundant system of columns and beams the floorloads would have been transfered to 5 times as many points - and not as easily affected by dynamic loads.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AI agree they should be affected by dynamic loads%2C but all this lefts the core somewhere behind. Plagueuppy gave a wonderful scenario somewhere on this thread.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DI saw the blast damage caused on 2-26-93. 40 percent of the core was not destroyed.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AReally%3F Then I must have read that from a bad source...%0D%0AI was sure it was true. No disrespect%2C but I will search about it more.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DThe damaged columns were on level B-1 and B-2. I counted seven on B-1 and eight maybe nine on B-2 %28which became known as ground zero%29.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0ABy %22damaged columns%22 you mean perimeter columns%3F%0D%0AThere is a movie about it. The terrorists put a truck-bomb close to N-tower in order to tilt it to FALL on the S-tower. The plan was to topple both buildings towards Bankers Trust Bldg. or Verizon.%0D%0AWhy do you say that B2 is known as G-0%3F%0D%0AThe whole WTC is G-0.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DThe cores were unaffected.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0AI have to check that. I am sure I read that one engineer said 40%25 was blasted. 40 is easy to remember.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DThe black smoke seen on 9-11 was evidence of a mostly fuel enriched or hydrocarbon fire. Your soot and thick black smoke is incompletely burned fuel%2C not an oxygen starved fire.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AIncompletely burned fuel %3D oxygen starved fire%0D%0Aisn%27t it%3F%0D%0AStrong fire has little or no smoke. Hydrocarbon enriched smoke is thick and dark. Other materials %28like wood and paper%29 produce thick light-gray smoke.%0D%0ABoth smokes were visible at WTC. At places where fire bursted from windows %28it was soon gone%29 there were small amounts of smoke.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DI believe that it would be to your advantage to polietely state your disagreement and refrain from using terms like stupid and from using not so subtle %22quotation marks%22 to voice your opposition.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AExcuse me if I raised my tone. I didn%27t mean to be offensive.%0D%0AYou know%2C it is sometimes hard to stay calm if you hear opinion that individuals %28that make fun of your opinions for a long time%29 stubbornly state.%0D%0AAnd I forgot that you%27re new here. I advise you %28if you have the time over weekend%29 to search for old wtc threads here. They keep lots of informations.%0D%0AGo to Plaguepuppy%27s site http%3A%2F%2Fhome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2Fwsb%2Fhtml%2Fview.cgi-home.html-.html%0D%0AHe made a great job. Visit http%3A%2F%2Fhereisnewyork.org%0D%0ACollect some media. It is not good to rely ONLY on your present knowledge. You have to search for more.%0D%0AI am really sorry about the %22%22.%0D%0AAnd about the %22stupid%22 word. That is actually an order from northzax %28I hope I wrote it well%29. He said that we must not write%3A %22You are stupid%22 but %22That is a stupid idea%22.%0D%0ACalm down%2C I wasn%27t going to call you stupid. I really meant about the idea.%0D%0AIt is nice from you to say what you do for living. I never say anything about me cause I like to stay anonymous.%0D%0ALike Nitroxpress said%2C I have nothing against people with no engineering experience%2C but I hate when they say they are engineers%2C especially if they stubbornly repeat%0D%0Anon-scientific cr%2Ap. There are many folks like the one I described here. I won%27t point fingers now.%0D%0A%5Bb%5DAs someone already did when you came to this WTC-thread.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0AThe person knows who I%27m talking about%2C and I wouldn%27t be suprised if he%2Fshe %28enigma%29 replies to this post.%0D%0AAfter all%2C he%2Fshe has prooven how Homo Sapiens L. can be annoying.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bb%5DEvil piggies are everywhere...BEWARE%5B%2Fb%5D %5B%2Ffont%5D|41
61|7|Just a quick follow up ...|DeadBroke||20:32:05|02/23/2003|.... to your question about the ground zero term I used for the 2-26-93 blast incident. Level B-2%2C which is under the Vista Hotel%2C was officially called ground zero for this incident because the rental van containing the bomb was parked and left there. %0D%0A%0D%0AA company I used to work for was one of many called in to assess an offer resolution for the damages caused on 2-23-93. My notes from those visits show seven damaged columns on B-1 and nine on B-2%3B which also corresponds to the official reports completed by the Port Authority Risk Management Staff%2C FDNY%2C and FEMA. The FEMA report is USFA-TR-076. The text of that report and photos in appendix A will substaniate my statement.%0D%0A%0D%0AThanks for your cooperation and kind advice. I actually spent many long days reading all the DU threads and links before posting my first message. %0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ve spent five decades watching the sun rise over the NYC skyline%2C a skyline that four generations of my family helped build. Seeing the Trade Center vanish from that view sent me looking for answers%2C and DU is one of those many stops. Thanks for your contributions.|57
11|3|this was well reported in nyc|RedSock||20:07:17|02/17/2003|I remember reading about the burning fires for weeks. In the NY papers%2C it was a semi-big deal when the final fire was put out -- about three months after 9%2F11. It shouldn%27t be that hard to find articles that mention this. %28The book %22American Ground%22 %28also printed in 3 consecutive issues of The Atlantic Monthly%29 might have some info.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people%2C little by little%2C to being governed by surprise%3B to receiving decisions deliberated in secret%3B to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand%2C or so dangerous that%2C even if he people could understand it%2C it could not be released because of national security. ... To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it ... Each step was so small%2C so inconsequential%2C so well explained ... your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. ... You have accepted things you would not have accepted five years ago%2C a year ago ... Suddenly it all comes down%2C all at once. ... You remember everything now%2C and your heart breaks. Too late. You are compromised beyond repair.%22 Milton Mayer -- http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thirdreich.net%2FThought_They_Were_Free.html%0D%0A%0D%0A%22It is natural for a man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth%2C and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men%2C engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty%3F Are we disposed to be of the number of those who%2C having eyes%2C see not%2C and%2C having ears%2C hear not%2C the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation%3F For my part%2C whatever anguish of spirit it may cost%2C I am willing to know the whole truth%3B to know the worst%2C and to provide for it.%22 - Patrick Henry%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This country%2C with its institutions%2C belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government%2C they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it%2C or their revolutionary right to dismember%2C or overthrow it.%22 %28Abraham Lincoln%2C First Inaugural Address%2C March 4%2C 1861%29 %0D%0A%0D%0AMy sites%3A http%3A%2F%2Fwww.1918redsox.com and http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pedro45.net%5B%2Ffont%5D|7
12|4|Different thing%3A|acerbic||20:14:02|02/17/2003|%5Bi%5DI remember reading about the burning fires for weeks. In the NY papers%2C it was a semi-big deal when the final fire was put out -- about three months after 9%2F11. It shouldn%27t be that hard to find articles that mention this.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AIt isn%27t hard to find articles that mention that%2C but I didn%27t find any articles saying that the fires were %5Bb%5D%5Bi%5Dso hot%5B%2Fi%5D that there was no way to put them out.%5B%2Fb%5D Anyone%3F|11
13|5|I know why they did not try|LARED||20:52:04|02/17/2003|to put the fires out. I know a fellow that is the local fire chief. He told me the firefighters at the WTC stopped trying to put out the fires because it was causing flooding in the subways.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DDo right until the stars fall%2C and if they do%2C continue to do right.%5B%2Ffont%5D|12
17|6|Pyrocool|DulceDecorum||02:09:20|02/19/2003|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Feb-19-03 AT 02:12 AM (ET)[/font][p]Tinsley says there are several reasons for the longevity of the fire%3A %22First%2C this is not a typical fire by any means. The combustible debris is mixed with twisted steel in a mass that covers 17 acres%2C and may be 50 metres deep. This is the one all future fire scenes will be measured against.%22%0D%0AThe other reasons are human. For nearly three weeks%2C Tinsley says%2C city officials insisted that work at Ground Zero was a rescue operation%2C meaning it would have been inappropriate to flood the rubble with water. As a result%2C he says%2C %22the fires had a 17-day head start when we arrived.%22%0D%0AAnd there is the issue of human remains. These are still being found and removed and%2C since the fires are not threatening any property or lives%2C they are being allowed to burn on. %0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.newscientist.com%2Fnews%2Fnews.jsp%3Fid%3Dns99991634%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat is even more interesting about these persistent fires is the fact that one of them was located at Building 7%2C which%2C as you will recall%2C was not hit by anything other than symapthy at the collapse of its colleagues.%0D%0A%0D%0AFor the Building Seven operation%2C a 75-foot ladder tower %28Truck Company 133-Brooklyn%29 was utilized%2C together with a 500 GPM Akron eductor. Foam was applied%2C at approximately 500 GPM%2C for two hours to the middle section of Building Seven%2C after which a portable infrared camera revealed that the area had been fully extinguished. In fact%2C no hot spots were found in the area where PYROCOOL had been applied.  %0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.pyrocool.org%2Fnews.htm%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.pyrocool.org%2F|13
15|5|You%27re right ...|abeing||08:28:12|02/18/2003|I don%27t have specific information about the temperatures involved.  Perhaps they were difficult to extinguish without flooding the subways%2C as another poster suggests.  In any case%2C they did burn for months and there were no coal mines in the area to my knowledge.|12
16|6|FDNY deployed ...|DeadBroke||09:13:00|02/18/2003|... several %22master streams%22 as soon as possible after the collapse. A master stream is a device capable of flowing large quantities of water%2C from 500 gallons per minute up to 1500 gallons per minute%2C all dependent on the source and supply of the water. Most of the master streams were applied from the nozzles atop tower ladder trucks%2C and some from %22deck guns%22 atop fire engines. %22Handlines%22 are hoses%2C 1.5 or 2.5 inches in diameter%2C that a fire crew or team of 2 or 3 firefighters can handle and move about as needed. Handlines have lower water flows than master sreams%2C a range from 150 to 250 gallons per minute%2C but they were also used. Several hand lines were deployed onto the debris from the windows of the phone company building.  %0D%0A%0D%0AYes%2C it is true that flooding became an issue%2C that FDNY reduced the amounts of water being applied%2C and that the fires burned for weeks after the collapse. It is also true that areas of the rubble were also very hot from the fires below and that the shoes of rescue workers would melt. That%27s right%2C the soles of their shoes were melting. The movie actress Susan Saradon appeared on tv newscasts asking for donations of bottled water%2C gloves%2C and for shoes - work boots - for rescue workers. OEM directors here in NJ obtained shoes%2C gloves%2C respirators%2C goggles and bottled water which were then convoyed with police escort into NY.|15
19|3|not paying attention%2C or just forgetful%3F|JackRiddler||05:45:55|02/19/2003|The continuing fire at the WTC was reported on non-stop for three months after Sept. 11th%2C until it was finally put out. Every day%2C they showed the smoke continuing to rise from Ground Zero. You really don%27t remember this anymore%3F Hmmm...|7
26|4|Not paying attention. That is%2C you%27re not paying attention...|acerbic||16:37:23|02/19/2003|%5Bi%5DThe continuing fire at the WTC was reported on non-stop for three months after Sept. 11th%2C until it was finally put out. Every day%2C they showed the smoke continuing to rise from Ground Zero. You really don%27t remember this anymore%3F Hmmm...%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AI was asking about the fires like that which also %5Bb%5Dsupposedly were so hot that there was no way to put them out%5B%2Fb%5D%2C and in following posts it was pretty well confirmed that there weren%27t any.|19
9|2|A 100 days ain%27t nothing|LARED||18:42:02|02/17/2003|How about 40 years%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCentralia Pennsylvania no longer exists on some maps.  The story began sometime in 1961 along the outskirts of town when trash was burned in an old open pit mine.  The fire in the open pit caught an exposed vein of coal on fire.  The coal then began to burn underground.  That was in 1961.  Over 40 years and 40 million dollars later the fire still burns through old coal mines and veins following the coal under the town and the surrounding hillsides.  The fire%2C smoke%2C fumes and toxic gases that came up though the back yards%2C basements and streets of Centralia practically ripped the town apart.   Attempts to put the fires out were unsuccessful.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.offroaders.com%2Falbum%2Fcentralia%2Fcentralia.htm%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fsearch%3Fhl%3Den%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26q%3Dunderground%2Bcoal%2Bfires%26btnG%3DGoogle%2BSearch %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DDo right until the stars fall%2C and if they do%2C continue to do right.%5B%2Ffont%5D|6
37|3|Is this somekind of joke%3F%3F%3F|Endimion||17:17:08|02/21/2003|Fire burning for 40 YEARS in a coal pit%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AWho do you think we are%3F%0D%0AIs this site credible%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AI won%27t even bother to explain the chemical anomalies in that text...%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bb%5DEvil piggies are everywhere...BEWARE%5B%2Fb%5D %5B%2Ffont%5D|9
39|4|Please do|LARED||17:33:30|02/21/2003|%5Bi%5DI won%27t even bother to explain the chemical anomalies in that text...%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0APlease. But%2C perhaps before you explain them anomalies%2C you should re-read the text. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DDo right until the stars fall%2C and if they do%2C continue to do right.%5B%2Ffont%5Dq|37
59|5|I will be so polite and listen to you.|Endimion||18:51:17|02/23/2003|First.%0D%0AExplain me how can a coal vein burn.%0D%0AYou have complete absence of oxygen%2C and presence of methane and other gaseous hydrocarbons.%0D%0ADo they know it is burning at all%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AMaybe I missunderstood.%0D%0AWhat is burning%2C the gas exiting the shaft%2C the shaft or what%3F%0D%0AFrom that page%2C I understood that fire spreads through dense coal veins like that sparkling smoulder when a tissue paper burns out. Looks like electric sparks.%0D%0AThen I thought that carbon-monoxide is disproportioning on carbon-dioxide and carbon %28like in tall iron furnaces%29%2C but that requires energy input.%0D%0AMaybe magma is heating the coal and hot gases burn at the exit%3F%0D%0ABut magma is deep.%0D%0A%0D%0ASo please%2C be so polite and explain me how can carbon burn in 99%25 carbon and 1%25 gas.%0D%0A%0D%0AWriting imposible chemical equations%2C eh%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bb%5DEvil piggies are everywhere...BEWARE%5B%2Fb%5D %5B%2Ffont%5D|39
60|6|Not a clue|LARED||19:14:16|02/23/2003|why underground coal fires burn. Sometimes it%27s spontaneous%2C sometimes an above ground fire starts them like the one in Penn. %0D%0A%0D%0AUnderground coal fire have been around many years in many parts of the world.%0D%0A%0D%0AI did find this paper that has some interesting information. %0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsgsweb.uwyo.edu%2FCoal%2FCR01-1.pdf%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DDo right until the stars fall%2C and if they do%2C continue to do right.%5B%2Ffont%5D|59
122|6|Lared is right on this one|shatoga||08:18:29|03/21/2003|%3E%0D%0APosted by Endimion%0D%0AFirst.%0D%0AExplain to me how can a coal vein burns.%0D%0AYou have complete absence of oxygen%2C and presence of methane and other gaseous hydrocarbons.%0D%0ADo they know it is burning at all%3F%0D%0AMaybe I missunderstood.%0D%0AWhat is burning%2C the gas exiting the shaft%2C the shaft or what%3F%3C%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ve done fire protection work in the area of Centralia Pennsylvania.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe ground is snow covered in winter%2C so many hot spots are conspicuous by their warmth and being snow free.%0D%0AMine shafts collapse when the pillars of coal %28left in place to support the roof%29 burn through.%0D%0A%0D%0AA local tale is that a river was diverted%2Fchanneled into a burning mine.%0D%0AThe heat was said to break down the water into steam with no significant reduction.%0D%0ATale is that the expanding steam opened up more air sources and the fire just got hotter.%0D%0AThere are so many mine shafts that attempts to seal off fires have failed.%0D%0A%0D%0ANot convinced of any specifics or details%2C but I%27ve stood on hot ground and read the%2C state posted signs%2C warning people not to travel into some areas because of underground fires.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat is burning is the coal seam itself%2C %26 any methane pockets that collapsing shafts open.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A|59
149|7|Ah%2C that is an another situation%21|Endimion||16:05:02|03/24/2003|Mine SHAFTS%21%0D%0AFrom Lared%27s words%2C I could see that coal VEINS were burning.%0D%0AI can understand a burning shaft.%0D%0AFor example%2C my country%27s coast is made from limestone%21 Add underground water flowings%2C lytosphere quake borders and you get a very unstabile terrain capable of imploding. Yes%2C we have many earthquakes every now and then%2C usually light ones%2C not exceeding 3-4 Richters. But I%27ve experienced worse twice.%0D%0AEvery time%2C few days before Etna starts throwing up%2C we have series of light quakes. They%27re usually breaking up during night%2C and people are not informed about it%2C to avoid panic. One day it might happen something like in San Francisco. It happened in Skopje%2C Sarajevo%2C Banja Luka %28cities in Bosnia%26Hercegovina%29.%0D%0A%0D%0AI really can understand fire in shafts%2C but fires in cracked coal veins%2C no. Simply not possible.%0D%0ABut these things are really rare. You probably think they%27re not%2C simply cause there are so many reports %28which are written only cause their rareness%29. See how many reports were there and how many coal pits and mines are there in the world. Get my point%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DWhat is burning is the coal seam itself%2C %26 any methane pockets that collapsing shafts open.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AAre you sure you weren%27t standing on a geologicaly active area%3F I know that there are no lytosphere cracks inside USA%2C but you never know what%27s happening down there. It might be hot steam%2C or layers of naturally radioactive material. Everything can be a reason for molten snow. Volcanoes are not necesarry.%0D%0AGas released by collapsed shaft should burn quickly%2C in few days the most. These long-term fires are very weak. From all posts here one could conclude that there is hell underground%2C indeed.|122
44|4|long-running underground fires in coal pits...|JackRiddler||09:42:48|02/22/2003|happen all the time. The one in West Virginia was going for 40 years and only put out a couple of years ago.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat the hell this has to do with Ground Zero%2C search me%2C but that much is correct. |37
147|2|Fires have been known to burn for %2Ayears%2A|Vulture||01:26:04|03/24/2003|Very long running fires are not at all uncommon%2C and there are a number of scenarios that can create them.  There are a number of fires created by man that have burned for decades%2C and naturally caused fires %28e.g. in coal seams%29 that have burned for many thousands of years.  Fires at tire dumps are essentially unstoppable%2C for example%2C and some instances of this have burned for many%2C many years because they cannot be extinguished.  Sometimes there is no effective way to squash a burn%2C so they just let it run its course.  To fully seal off the oxygen and dissipate the heat for some fires is nearly impossible.  It depends on what is burning and the conditions surrounding it.  |6
8|1|The fireproofing in nearly |LARED||18:32:09|02/17/2003|every steel structure constructed in modern times is placed there for a reason. %0D%0A%0D%0AIt is there because combustible materials when on fire%3B materials found in all sorts of commercial and industrial structures%2C will dangerously weaken steel. Dangerously weakened steel is a hazard to firefighters and the structural integrity of the building. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe jet fuel is only the source of the fire.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DDo right until the stars fall%2C and if they do%2C continue to do right.%5B%2Ffont%5D|0
14|2|The fireproofing at the WTC ...|DeadBroke||00:18:15|02/18/2003|... was state of the art for it%27s time period. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe general contractor hired to run the site of any construcion project in NYC%2C and probably in every other major city%2C has a consulting engineering firm that performs inspections during the course of the project. They count screws in sheetrock%2C inspect welds%2C perform slump tests on concrete deliveries%2C and etc. %0D%0A%0D%0AWhen they inspect fireproofing they first make sure that the steel to which it is being applied to is a certain temperature. Photos of the WTC during it%27s construction often show several floors enveloped in tarps. Those tarps had two purposes. Naturally they contained the overspray%2C which is very VERY slippery%2C but they mainly were used to preheat and then maintain proper heat in the areas that were about to be fireproofed. Areas that were just fireproofed had to be kept heated to prevent freezing of the fresh fireproofing. %0D%0A%0D%0AOnce the mixture was approved and sprayed on the inspectors would use a probe and measure the thickness. The thickness of the coating must meet code. Then%2C once dry%2C the inspectors use a pull cup to test the adhesion of the fireproofing applied. They choose random areas%2C spray paint ID numbers on the area and photograph it. The pull cup is about the same size and shape of a cap for a can of spray paint. It%27s got a hook on the end. The inspector sprays glue into the cup and forces it onto the fireproofing with a slight screwing motion. The glue dries and then a weight is hung on the hook and timed to see if the fireproofing will pull away. It%27s not allowed to pull away. If it does more tests%2C usually 10 in a 100 square foot area%2C are done and if 20 percent fail the entire area is condemed and must be scraped%2C cleaned and resprayed and then retested.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe WTC%2C like the buldings making up Penn Plaza%2C Rock Center%2C and other famous addreses were always under renovation. Tenants moving in and out all the time. Floor plans always being changed%2C and etc. It%27s common practice that inspections are made before%2C during%2C and after major renovations. Electrical inspections are done and other concerns such as live load factors are all considered. While pull cup tests are not part of that renovation inspection process the areas must be checked for fireproofing. %0D%0A%0D%0AIt has been reported that the fireproofing delaminated from the steel when the airplanes impacted the WTC. I believe that did happen. In my years as an ironworker I%27ve seen fireproofing snap off steel columns and beams in large chunks and in fine powder form whenever the tensile or compression limits of steel framing members were exceeded and when steel framing members could not dampen themselves from an impact. Once using a roust-about%2C a small hand cranked wheeled crane%2C to fit a new beam that would permit greater live loads on the floor above%2C between two existing columns I struck a column with the beam. All it did was %22twang%22 but all the fireproofing fell off the column. The beam slid out of the choker and fell to the floor. All the fireproofing fell off the underside of the decking below. %0D%0A%0D%0AFireproofing works%2C if it stays on. The first line of defense against fire for any burning building is the built in fire detection and suppresion systems - sprinklers. The second line of defense is the fire department. The third and last line of defense for a burning building are the materials that the building is made from.  %0D%0A%0D%0A|8
18|2|respectfully disagree and agree|shatoga||03:52:14|02/19/2003|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Feb-19-03 AT 03:55 AM (ET)[/font][p]Other materials in a building will ignite in a fire.%0D%0APaint on walls%2C upholstery of furniture%2C insulation of wiring.%0D%0AThe toxic fumes from these materials kill fire victims through inhalation.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ve installed a lot of firestopping in high rise buildings.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe idea is to prevent the chimney effect of a fire rising to the next floor etc%2C by stopping all avenues of spread with fire resistant materials.%0D%0A%0D%0ABurning kerosene with oxygen or compressed air can cause steel beams to lose their temper and collapse %27like a wet noodle%27.%0D%0A%0D%0ATo collapse lengthways %28telescope into themselves%29%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ANot in the world of fire science.%0D%0A%0D%0ANot in the world of physics.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AFailure of the clips holding trusses to beams via FSLC is the simple explanation which requires no leaps of logic other than one%3A%0D%0AAuthorities would minimise collateral damage if they were able.%0D%0AAfter the 1993 WTC explosion someone would have understood that in the event of a repeat%3B%0D%0Acontrolled demolition is better than a tall building falling over sideways and taking out many city blocks%2C killing many more people%2C  in the process.%0D%0A%0D%0AAt least attribute a %22saving lives%22 motive to the controlled demolition aspect.%0D%0A%0D%0ANo conspiracy is required %0D%0A%0D%0Ato save lives when possible %0D%0Aby making the tough choice to sacrifice the already doomed.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fduforum%2FDCForumID12%2F2935.html%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|8
20|3|hrrrmmm...|JackRiddler||05:50:36|02/19/2003|So you%27re thinking controlled demolition as a form of limiting casualties and damage. Fascinating%2C since probably half of the dead were killed in the collapse. %0D%0A%0D%0AIf true%2C why didn%27t our benevolent demolishers wait until everyone below the fires was out of the buildings%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ASecond%2C sorry%3A No justification for this theoretical operation%2C or keeping it secret. Seems to invite disaster. Kind of like insuring against flooding by activating a plan to burn down your house. %0D%0A%0D%0AThird%2C oops%2C should have been my first question%3A %0D%0A%0D%0AHow the hell do you know any of this%3F|18
21|4|reality sucks|shatoga||09:37:50|02/19/2003|how do I justify half the dead killed in the collapse%3F%0D%0A%0D%0APosted by JackRiddler%3A %0D%0A%3ESo you%27re thinking controlled demolition as a form of limiting casualties and damage. Fascinating%2C since probably half of the dead were killed in the collapse.%3C%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0APosted by JackRiddler%3A%0D%0A%3EHow the hell do you know any of this%3F%3C%0D%0APM answer %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AHow many more would have died if the 110 stories high buildings %0D%0Anorth%28 1 World Trade Center tower was 1%2C368 feet tall and 2 World Trade Center was 1%2C362 feet tall. %29had fallen over as would have normally happened from a side imapct and fire%3F%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.geocities.com%2Fweseektoknow%2Fwtc%2Findex2.html%0D%0A40%2C000 people worked there but only 13%2C000 were there on 9%2F11.%0D%0A%0D%0AIsn%27t it lucky that 3 of 4 people failed to go to work that day%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AOnly at that building complex%21%0D%0A%0D%0ACoincidence of course%21%0D%0A%0D%0AIn politics%2C nothing happens by accident. If it happened%2C you can bet it was planned that way. %0D%0AFranklin Delano Roosevelt %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fduforum%2FDCForumID12%2F2935.html%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|20
22|3|Two questions|LARED||12:37:58|02/19/2003|%5Bi%5DBurning kerosene with oxygen or compressed air can cause steel beams to lose their temper and collapse %27like a wet noodle%27.%0D%0A%0D%0ATo collapse lengthways %28telescope into themselves%29%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ANot in the world of fire science.%0D%0A%0D%0ANot in the world of physics%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0ACan you please explain what you mean a little clearer. I%27m not clear on how a beam or truss telescopes into itself. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5Dcontrolled demolition is better than a tall building falling over sideways and taking out many city blocks%2C killing many more people%2C in the process.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0ACan you provide any evidence there was a controlled demolition%3F Other than only intelligent people know it was demolished. And what branch of engineering tells you that the WTC was supposed to fall over if a jet hits it near the top%3F %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DDo right until the stars fall%2C and if they do%2C continue to do right.%5B%2Ffont%5D|18
23|4|Don%27t you understand%3F|acerbic||13:53:27|02/19/2003|A continuous%2C seamless steel tube like the WTC towers could in reality only bend to the side if it%27s banged a little and heated. To make it behave as if it were constructed of steel pieces requires cutting it to pieces with explosives. Only a very stupid person or a clever Bush disinformation agent would not understand that.%0D%0A%0D%0AAll the intelligent persons%2C especially those who have studied physics in prestigious universities understand it. %3A-%29|22
29|5|thanks for the affirmation|shatoga||10:17:23|02/21/2003|If you don%27t%0D%0Adisagree with me%2C how will I know I%27m right.%22%2C Samuel Goldwyn. ... %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AThe Republican National Committee%2C with the technological expertise of The Bivings Group%2C has launched a new Internet program%0D%0Athe Bivings Group%2C a PR company contracted to Monsanto%2C has invented fake citizens to post messages on internet listservers. %0D%0AThere definitely are paid professional PR flacks%2C working for the Republican National Committee%21 %28and dittohead zealots following their guidance%29%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D5596%26forum%3DDCForumID43%0D%0APost %2312 has proofs%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.bivings.com%2Fnews%2Fgopteamleader.html%0D%0A%3Ea stereotype of a PR man -- overtalking%2C evading questions%2C tossing out confusing scientific terms%2C qualifying every answer.%3C%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fduforum%2FDCForumID12%2F2935.html%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|23
30|6|Indeed. And yet..|Emperor_Norton_II||10:29:03|02/21/2003|It strikes me that the best kind of PR flack for this kind of work wouldn%27t bolster the official version. Rather%2C he%27d spread one alternative theory or another and claim those who debated him were agents or infiltrators. In this way%2C he%27d sow discord in any serious investigation and%2C should enough people believe his theory%2C possibly discredit the entire movement.%0D%0A%0D%0AJust a thought.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D--%0D%0AHRH Joshua Norton II%2C Emperor of the United States%2C Protector of Mexico and the Dominion of Canada%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We don%27t like uncertainty%97so we gravitate back to the last comfortable solution we had%2C and in this way we elevate belief to the status of fact.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22But scientists are comfortable with not knowing. They thrive on it. They don%27t assume that just because they had an idea it must be right. They attack it as vigorously as they can because they don%27t want to lie to themselves. As Richard Feynman said%2C %22Not knowing is much more interesting than believing an answer which might be wrong.%22%22 -- Alan Alda%5B%2Ffont%5D|29
33|6|Well du-uh%21|acerbic||13:51:08|02/21/2003|Who would argue repeatedly with infinitely illogical%2C relentlessly stubborn morons %5Bb%5Dwithout getting paid%3F%5B%2Fb%5D No way%21 %3Aeyes%3A|29
24|4|Telescopes and wet noodles|plaguepuppy||15:20:38|02/19/2003|If I may say something about this issue of telescoping columns%2C which you treat as an odd conceit%2C it appears that is the most accurate description of what can actually be seen happening.  Despite claims that the core columns %22turned into wet noodles%22 or z-folded in place like an accordian%2C the visual evidence is much more consistent with the core actually collapsing into its own footprint.  Whether you call this %22telescoping%22 or not%2C the overall effect is very much what most people would imagine that term to imply - each individual column would have to collapse into its own footprint.  Any other collaose mode would immediately introduce an element of assymetery.%0D%0A%0D%0AA tall slender object is the classic example of the inverted pendulum type of unstable system.  Any displacement from perfect center creates a force pulling it further from equilibrium in the same direction.  For such a system to spontaneously collapse into its own footprint is unlikely over several times the age of the universe%2C though not strictly speaking impossible.   %0D%0A%0D%0AThis is especially clear at the start of the WTC-1 collapse%2C when the roof and antenna settle straight down.  The antenna sits directly on top of the core%2C so the fact that it drops straight down means that the entire core%2C all 47 columns%2C is failing in such a way that the tops of the columns move down exactly in tandom.  This is very different from what we would see if the columns were failing by turning to %22wet noodles%2C%22 in which case the top would be flailing around wildly.  And remember too that even if all the core columns could be heated to the point of flaccidity %28this is far more than just de-tempering the steel%2C and demands temperatures of at least 1400%B0F%29 they are bound together with steel cross-braces at every floor%2C and so would have to bend as a unit.  %0D%0A%0D%0AUnless something physically removes the lower portions of columns there is no way for heating %28short of the melting point%29 to cause steel columns to settle straight down.%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fhome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2Fn-tower.jpg%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.indymedia.org%2Flocal%2Fwebcast%2Fuploads%2Fclose-up_north_tower.mpg%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fhome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2F1st24.jpg%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fontario.indymedia.org%2Flocal%2Fwebcast%2Fuploads%2Fno_tow_1st24.mpg%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bfont color%3Dblue size%3D1%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DWill our children be sacrificial lambs offered up%0D%0Ato ease the fears of multinational corporations%0D%0Alike so many brainwashed media zombies%3F%0D%0APetroleum and its byproducts should not be a dependency%0D%0Ain a technology-based society.  Nothing lasts forever%2C %0D%0Aand we cannot ask God for our gasoline.%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dred%5D%5Blink%3Aimages.indymedia.org%2Fimc%2Fontario%2Frise_robots_rise_-_rise_robots_rise_-_03_-_flowers_and_birds.mp3%7C%22Flowers and Birds%22%5D by Rise Robots Rise%2C 1991%0D%0A%5Blink%3Awww.daveyd.com%2Fparistrack.mp3%7CParis%3A What Would You Do%3F%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Blink%3Ahome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2Fwsb%2Fhtml%2Fview.cgi-home.html-.html%7CPlaguepuppy%27s Homepage%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D|22
28|5|Wish I had your ....|DeadBroke||21:14:54|02/19/2003|... gift for choosing and using words. I understand your pendulum example%2C but wasn%27t the Trade Center - any skyscraper for that matter - really better described as a diving board stuck in the ground%2C or like any other long stiff object that returns back to it%27s original position after getting bounced or struck%3F The Trade Center was 200 feet by 200 feet and weighed 500%2C000 tons. I%27m not convinced that there are lateral forces that could cause the displacement from center you described on an object that big and heavy. %0D%0A|24
31|5|CDI and other demolition contractors|shatoga||10:41:52|02/21/2003|don%27t cut a building all at once.%0D%0AFirst the core must collapse%2C then the outside walls fall into the center.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe assymetry you mention is what normally occurs in a fire and building collapse.%0D%0A%0D%0AI get much of my attitude from witnessing 3 controlled demolitions%0D%0A and viewing %28again%29 the videotaped 1 hour program I recorded back in 1995%2C %0D%0Ain which a CDI expert stresses the need for carefully placed sequentially detonated charges to produce an implosion.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe only evidence that would convince me otherwise is material dated from before the Bush Adinistration%2C which must clearly state the WTC was deliberately engineered to collapse as it did.%0D%0A%0D%0ANo documents%3F%0D%0AI rely on physical evidence.%0D%0A%0D%0ANo steel column has yet been laboratory documented as having telescoped into itself.%0D%0AHeat causes steel to soften before it melts.%0D%0A%28thus my correct %27wet noodle%27 comparison%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D5596%26forum%3DDCForumID43%0D%0APost %2312 has proofs%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fduforum%2FDCForumID12%2F2935.html%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|24
32|5|Three points|LARED||12:32:05|02/21/2003|The columns can buckle and not introduce significant levels of asymmetry. If a column is under an axial force the ends will tend to stay fixed because of how they are constructed%2C and the center tends to bend out. At the time of collapse the column folds in half. This can of course introduce asymmetry%2C but it does not require that it be significant. In fact each column could fail in a different direction and balance out the lateral force to some extent. There is also the reality of the floors collapsing and breaking out lateral supports for the columns%2C which will allow the columns to buckle with greater ease. In short there is no requirement that that column telescope into one another.%0D%0A%0D%0AYour inverted pendulum being analogous to the WTC is quite off the mark. As pointed out%2C it is much closer to a diving board stuck in the ground. A pendulum is free to rotate about a fixed point in a nearly frictionless joint. Any displacement by a force on a pendulum will cause it to rotate about that fixed point. The WTC is fixed to bedrock. Is buried 70 feet in the ground and the top needs to move at least 100 feet from the center to even have the ability to tip over. Even then%2C because it is fixed to the ground it will not fall over unless the building itself fails. %0D%0A%0D%0AThis point you make about the flaccidity of the steel. As far as I know steel needs to be far above 1400 F to become easily malleable. Flaccid steel is not even an issue. The strength of steel is directly related to its temperature. At normal temperatures in regular combustible material fire%2C steel will lose something around 60 percent or more of its strength. More than enough to cause failure of overloaded members. It does not need to be flaccid. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DUnless something physically removes the lower portions of columns ....%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat about those jumbo jets that crashed into the building%3F %0D%0A|24
38|6|Please elaborate|Endimion||17:19:28|02/21/2003|how do you describe the damage caused by the plane%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bb%5DEvil piggies are everywhere...BEWARE%5B%2Fb%5D %5B%2Ffont%5D|32
40|7|Damage|LARED||17:39:19|02/21/2003|The FEMA report does a pretty good job describing the damage. Some of it%3B eyewitness reports. The link has been posted perhaps 90 times by now. Take a peek. It%27s chapter two if I recall. %0D%0A%0D%0AI would sum it up as follows. Lots of outer columns broken%2C perhaps 1%2F3 or more of the core columns damaged. And some mild damage some from the fuel explosions%2C followed by lots of fire damage. %0D%0A%0D%0AOh%2C I forgot to add many trusses and floors as the plane impacted 3 or 4 floors.  %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DDo right until the stars fall%2C and if they do%2C continue to do right.%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A|38
42|6|Correct ...|DeadBroke||23:07:05|02/21/2003|... about the causes of buckling. %0D%0A%0D%0AMy old ironworker apprentice manual defines buckling as follows%3B The bending of a straight element under compression. %0D%0A%0D%0AWe apprentices were also taught that the buckling of steel columns is a fact of nature called the Least Work Law%2C which was explained as happening two ways%3A%0D%0A%0D%0AThe first is by compression. All steel columns in a structural frame are in a compressed mode. As the load applied to the top of a steel column increases so does the compression%2C but the steel column cannot shorten itself or telescope into itself%2C so it follows the natural path of least work and bends outward. As I%27ve mentioned before in another thread%2C the term taught for the point at which a steel column will begin to bend from excessive compression is called the Euler Value. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe second is from lateral deflection. Horizontal steel members called beams are attached to the tops of columns. The top part of each beam supporting weight is in a compression mode and the bottom part of the beam is in tension. This is also true for a truss%2C the top chord is in compression%2C the lower chord in tension. Significant loads placed on the beam or truss will cause deflections which will pull or push on the columns connected to it. This lateral force applied to the top of the columns will force them to bend at a place of least resistance. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A|32
49|7|Interesting |LARED||18:09:37|02/22/2003|I did a Google search on Least Work Law and it only turns up in Masters programs for Civil Engineers. It seems you apprentice Iron Workers had some good teachers.  %0D%0A%0D%0ARegards%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DDo right until the stars fall%2C and if they do%2C continue to do right.%5B%2Ffont%5D|42
50|8|Oh yeah ....|DeadBroke||18:40:51|02/22/2003|.... we learned a little more than just how to drink beer and hollar at women lunchtime.|49
43|6|points%2F what points%3F|shatoga||08:57:33|02/22/2003|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-03 AT 09:00 AM (ET)[/font][p]Posted by LARED%3A%0D%0A%3EThe columns can buckle and not introduce significant levels of asymmetry.%3C%0D%0A%5Bb%5DThe aircraft impacts were not symmetrical.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0AYour house of cards falls down with that fact.%0D%0AAsymmetrical damage should cause asymmetrical structural failures.%0D%0AIf a%3Db%2C then b%3Da%2F%0D%0A symmetrical failure%3Dsymmetrical damage%0D%0A asymmetrical damage%3Dasymmetrical failure%0D%0A%0D%0AIn the real world%3A%0D%0AANY building is weakened most on the side where the impact and fire causes greatest damage%2C and collapses partially to that side.%0D%0ASudden %26 total collapse only occurs in controlled demolitions.%0D%0A%0D%0APost links to prove %22the %27tinfoilhat%27 spontaneous collapse theory%22%2C and I will gladly post an apology.%0D%0A%0D%0APosted by LARED%3A%0D%0A%3EThe WTC.... the top needs to move at least 100 feet from the center to even have the ability to tip over.%3C%0D%0AYour source for that leap of logic assumes no damage to the building%3F or assumes what%3F%0D%0A%0D%0APosted by LARED%3A%0D%0A%3EUnless something physically removes the lower portions of columns ....%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat about those jumbo jets that crashed into the building%3F %3C%0D%0A%0D%0AOK.%0D%0AWhat about all of %5Bb%5Dthose floors below the impact%3F%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ACoincidence requires too many unsubstantiated leaps of logic.%0D%0A%0D%0ADemolition requires only one%2C supported by photographic evidence.%0D%0AAs anyone viewing footage of a controlled demolition can easily test.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat it looks like is probably what it is.%0D%0A %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fduforum%2FDCForumID12%2F2935.html%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2990%26forum%3DDCForumID12%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2926%26forum%3DDCForumID12%5B%2Ffont%5D|32
45|7|Controlled demolitions ...|DeadBroke||11:02:32|02/22/2003|... that I have witnessed in NJ%2C in Atlantic City and in Newark%2C took weeks of preparation - not to set explosive charges%2C that just takes a couple of hours%2C but a lot of time and effort is spent%2C and has to be spent%2C to prepare the building for collapse inward onto itself. Demolition crews had to use torches to cut through key columns - removing the redundancy inherent to 3D steel framing of columns and beams. Controlled demolition is total%2C is sudden%2C and it is only made possible when the redundancy is removed. Pushing the plunger and setting off the explosive charges removes the very last bit of redundancy.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe Trade Center collapse was total%2C was sudden%2C because it lost all redundancy. It was not a controlled demolition. The photos posted in the threads show columns falling away from the building. In controlled demolitions everything falls inward. %0D%0A%0D%0AIn controlled demolitions the buildings are empty%2C free of all human life.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A|43
47|8|Redundancy%2C and what controlled demolitions look like|plaguepuppy||14:53:38|02/22/2003|%5Bi%5DA word about the disagreement between you and Endimion on how redundant the WTC towers were%3A%0D%0A%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0AI think the concept you were describing in conventional rectangular-grid type steel buildings is what could be described as distributed redundancy.  By having a 3-D grid array of steel there are many alternative paths for weight bearing throughout the structure so the stress can easily redistribute around damaged areas.  You can think of it as a lattice filling space - as the mesh gets finer it approaches a solid material.  In its actual state the framework behaves as a kind of coarse-grained solid.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe WTC towers are a different situation as you so vividly described with their huge expanses of open floor%2C 35%27 in one direction and 60%27 in the other from core to outer wall.  This of course concentrates all weight bearing in the core and perimeter columns%2C but within those structures there was a lot of redundancy in the sense of their being able to withstand much more than the static weight load of the building.  But the concentration of the weight bearing in the %22tube within a tube%22 structure takes away that spatially distributed redundancy of the empire State.  Even Trade-7 was very conventional compared to the towers.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat that difference says about what we might expect the collapse opf the towers to look like is still not clear to me.  Yes%2C the towers were less redundant%2C and in a sense the truss and floor systems were relatively fragile%2C but it still bothers me that they collapsed following the %5Bb%5Dpath of greatest resistance%5B%2Fb%5D.  The system is essentially a clamped inverted pendulum%2C but still has an inherent negatige stability in the sense that the collapse will tend to %22topple%22 to one side%2C and once this begins to happen there is no mechanism to pull things back to the middle.  After all%2C the middle is where the core is%2C and it will not get out of the way willingly.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat would such a collapse look like%3F  In the case of the south tower I would expect the top 30 floors to continue toppling to the south%2Feast more or less intact%2C rather than collapsing on themselves as they did.  That %7E360%27 tall block should have stayed mostly intact and toppled far to the south%2C leaving a partially collapsed lower 80 stories.  In the case of the north tower a collapse should never really have started%2C but if enough of the top 20 floors had become so weakened that they began to collapse on themselves the accumulating debris should have quickly slid off to one side. Once this begins to happen%2C and as the collapse begins to reach the thicker columns lower down%2C the ongoing collapse would fall off to one side and stop long before reaching ground level.  Floors could collapse for a long way down%2C and the outer walls might slump against the core%2C but there%27s no way a chain-reaction collapse could go all the way down%2C and certainly not one that could involve the core.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bfont color%3Dblue size%3D1%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DWill our children be sacrificial lambs offered up%0D%0Ato ease the fears of multinational corporations%0D%0Alike so many brainwashed media zombies%3F%0D%0APetroleum and its byproducts should not be a dependency%0D%0Ain a technology-based society.  Nothing lasts forever%2C %0D%0Aand we cannot ask God for our gasoline.%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D %5Blink%3Aimages.indymedia.org%2Fimc%2Fontario%2Frise_robots_rise_-_rise_robots_rise_-_03_-_flowers_and_birds.mp3%7C%22Flowers and Birds%22%5D by Rise Robots Rise%2C 1991%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Blink%3Awww.daveyd.com%2Fparistrack.mp3%7CParis%3A What Would You Do%3F%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%22In as much as all beings are our kindly parents%2C it would be a cause of regret to have aversion for and thus disown or abandon any of them.%22%0D%0A                                        ---Tantric precept%0D%0A%5Blink%3Ahome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2Fwsb%2Fhtml%2Fview.cgi-home.html-.html%7CPlaguepuppy%27s Homepage%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D|45
58|9|daily PlaguePuppy|HarryLime||18:43:57|02/23/2003|PP%2C you should put up your daily writings on your website or someplace.  I could definitely be interested in following your work in that fashion.  Cheers.%0D%0A|47
48|7|I really love these asymmetrical damage %3D asymmetrical failure |LARED||17:59:57|02/22/2003|analogies%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DAsymmetrical damage should cause asymmetrical structural failures.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AWhy%3F Please provide some rules that imply this is in fact a categorical cause and effect.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DIf a%3Db%2C then b%3Da%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AThis is stuff that is truly fascinating. That statement is not true for any number definitions of a and b. %0D%0A%0D%0AAssume %27a%27 and %27b%27 are asymmetrical systems of linear equations where %27a%27 is described by a 3 X 2 matrix called %27A%27 and matrix %27B%27 is a 2 x 4 matrix%2C such that a %3D A%2AB. Expanding your logic just a hair%2C one should be able to state that since a %3D A%2AB%2C b %3D B%2AA%2C so %27a%27%3D%27b%27%2C but in the world of matrix multiplication A%2AB does not equal B%2AA as I%27ve defined them.  %0D%0A%0D%0AThe point of the above is not to provide a lesson in matrix manipulation%2C but to point out that a%3Db and b%3Da is true only if %27a%27 and %27b%27 describe very simple systems. Like 2%2A3%3D3%2A2. To apply that logic to something like%3B  %0D%0A%0D%0Asymmetrical failure%3Dsymmetrical damage%0D%0Aasymmetrical damage%3Dasymmetrical failure%0D%0A%0D%0Ais at best wishful thinking. In the real world of failure analysis it doesn%27t work that way. %0D%0A%0D%0AAs a side note just how is asymmetrical defined in the damage or failures. If the North towers initial failure caused the antenna to drop 20%27 down and 2 feet to the North%2C is that asymmetrical or not. Because based on the video footage no one can with a certainly figure out the just how asymmetrical or symmetrical the failure was.  It should be noted the to my understanding the south tower failed asymmetrically%2C hence the tipping of the top at failure. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DDemolition requires only one%2C supported by photographic evidence. As anyone viewing footage of a controlled demolition can easily test.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AJust exactly how did you test this%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A  %0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DDo right until the stars fall%2C and if they do%2C continue to do right.%5B%2Ffont%5D|43
52|8|My apology|shatoga||03:22:54|02/23/2003|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Feb-23-03 AT 03:29 AM (ET)[/font][p]Nothing personal%2C but in general%3A%0D%0A%0D%0Afor overestimating intelligence%2C or underestimating  motives.%0D%0A%0D%0AAll have a right to support Bush regardless of all evidence.%0D%0AI support your right to form a wrong opinion%21%0D%0A%0D%0AOr to make a living in a repugnant manner...%0D%0AWe must not all like our jobs...%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont size%3D%221%22 color%3D%22%23FF0000%22%5D visit my sig links to fully understand %5Bb%5Dwith all questions answered%5B%2Fb%5D %5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fduforum%2FDCForumID12%2F2935.html%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2990%26forum%3DDCForumID12%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2926%26forum%3DDCForumID12%5B%2Ffont%5D|48
53|9|Really|LARED||07:43:01|02/23/2003|%5Bi%5Dfor overestimating intelligence%2C or underestimating motives.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat about those board rules you were so concerned about. Do they apply to you%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DAll have a right to support Bush regardless of all evidence.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AThere is something most of the conspiracy folks have in common and betrays a lack of understanding. Why do you guys believe that any disbelief in LIHOP%2C MIHOP or any of it forms means the unbeliever is a Bush supporter. %0D%0A %0D%0A%5Bi%5DI support your right to form a wrong opinion%21%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AProgress.  %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DDo right until the stars fall%2C and if they do%2C continue to do right.%5B%2Ffont%5D|52
62|10|Really%21|shatoga||07:29:04|02/24/2003|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Feb-24-03 AT 07:42 AM (ET)[/font][p]http%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2990%26forum%3DDCForumID12%0D%0A%0D%0AExplains why%3B I apologize for trying to convince a closed mind.%0D%0A%0D%0AI respect the right of any member to post RNC talking points%2C or anything else.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22By their fruits%2C ye shall know them.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AVisit my links to understand%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fduforum%2FDCForumID12%2F2935.html%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2990%26forum%3DDCForumID12%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2926%26forum%3DDCForumID12%5B%2Ffont%5D|53
63|11|Talking points|LARED||07:54:00|02/24/2003|%5Bi%5DI respect the right of any member to post RNC talking points%2C or anything else.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AWhich talking points have I advocated. Surely if you are accusing me of doing this you would have some evidence. Please show me the errors of my ways.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5D%22By their fruits%2C ye shall know them.%22%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AMore progress%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DDo right until the stars fall%2C and if they do%2C continue to do right.%5B%2Ffont%5D|62
67|12|temperature of the WTC fires %26 effect on steel |shatoga||02:18:14|02/25/2003|%0D%0AIf you don%27t disagree with me%2C how will I know I%27m right.%22%2C Samuel Goldwyn. ... %0D%0A%5Bfont size%3D%221%22 color%3D%22%23FF0000%22%5D %0D%0A-enough off topic strawman arguments-%0D%0ADiversion tactics %28intentional of not%29failed%3F%0D%0AYes- back on topic-%0D%0A%26 attempting to ignore strawman%2Fobfuscation and lack of objectivity by any and all.%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailyhowler.com%2Fdh120202.shtml%0D%0A%3Eday after day%2C injecting the daily Republican talking points into the definition of what%92s objective%3C%0D%0A----will result in joining my ignore list----%0D%0A%5Bb%5D%5Bi%5D%22Don%27t try to teach a pig to sing.%0D%0AIt wastes your time and annoys the pig%22%5B%2Fi%5D%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.usc.edu%2Fdept%2Fengineering%2Fillumin%2Fvol3issue3%2Fwtc%2Fpage3.html%0D%0A%3EThe Towers were very vulnerable to fire damage due to their primarily steel construction%3B high temperature during fires causes a loss of integrity in steel. To overcome this property%2C the steel in WTC 1 and the first 30 floors of WTC 2 was sprayed with a cementitious fireproofing material %28Post 2001%29 %28The rest of WTC 2 was sprayed with a safer%2C non-asbestos-containing material.%29 This fire resistant insulation ensures that the building will stay at least somewhat structurally sound for 120 to 180 minutes during a fire to allow for evacuation %28Graubner 2001%29. Of course%2C fireproofed steel is only rated to withstand temperatures less than 1%2C600 degrees Fahrenheit%3B at temperatures above this%2C%5Bb%5D the steel will soften and warp due to the intense heat%5B%2Fb%5D %28Post 2001%29.%3C%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwtc.nist.gov%2Fmedia%2Fsunderremarks_1209.htm%0D%0A%5Bb%5DDr. Shyam Sunder%2C Lead Investigator%0D%0ABuilding and Fire Safety Investigation of WTC Disaster%0D%0A%3ENIST considers it to be premature to exclude any of the potential hypotheses related to the sequence of events between the aircraft impact and the collapse of each tower.%3C%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%3EAlso%2C approximately 250 chemical analyses have been completed. They indicate that the majority of the perimeter columns were made of specific steels obtained from Yawata Steel%2C now Nippon Steel. They have offered to cooperate fully in assisting NIST and begun to provide useful information%2C including the proprietary specifications for their steels. So far%2C our tests indicate that they are of higher strength micro-alloyed steels %28similar to modern pipeline steels%29 or chromium-molybdenum steels that would meet U.S. specifications for heat resisting steels. %0D%0ANIST also has identified the fabricators of the steel floor trusses. The firm%2C Laclede Steel%2C has been fully cooperative in providing us with information. Documents from the firm show that the trusses were fabricated with steels that routinely met or exceeded the strength specified. We are testing selected truss steels to determine their properties independently.%0D%0AIn addition%2C we have characterized the effects of high temperature on the primer paint used on the perimeter columns. From this analysis we know that steel that shows little visible evidence of discoloration or damage to the primer paint could still have experienced high temperature levels due to the fires.%5Bb%5D We are continuing to investigate methods to estimate the temperatures reached by the steel.%3C%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%5Bb%5D IMHO the most objective website available at present%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fserendipity.magnet.ch%2Fwot%2Fmslp_ii.htm%0D%0A%3EThe critics have pointed out that steel does not MELT at 1500 F%2C but it does soften and lose its strength%2C enough to cause the towers to collapse. We are asked to believe%2C as one Australian put it%2C that steel supports turn to licorice when heated in a fire. %0D%0ACorus Steel is a trans-national corporation that markets structural steel http%3A%2F%2Fwww.corusconstruction.com%2F%0D%0A One graph on their web page shows the diminishing strength of steel as it is heated.%0D%0A http%3A%2F%2Fwww.corusconstruction.com%2Ffire%2Ffr006.htm %0D%0ANote that structural steel at 550 degrees C %281022 F%29 has 60%25 of the strength of steel at normal temperatures. This weakening of steel when heated is supposedly responsible for the catastrophic collapse of the towers. The statement generates three questions to be answered in order to determine whether this phenomenon could cause the collapse of the World Trade Center%3A %0D%0A1. How much strength would the steel have to lose for the WTC to collapse%3F %0D%0A2. What temperature would the steel have to reach to occasion this loss of strength%3F %0D%0A%5Bb%5D3. What was the temperature of the fire in the WTC%3B i.e.%2C did it reach the critically weakening temperature%3F %3C%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%3EQuestion 3%3A%0D%0ANow let us make a guess on the actual heat of the fire.%0D%0AFortunately%2C a number of studies have been done under very similar conditions. In Europe%2C multi-storied %22car parks%22 are often built of steel%2C and the possibility of vehicle fire is a distinct possibility. A parked vehicle%2C loaded with gasoline%2C diesel%2C tires%2C engine oil%2C engine tar%2C upholstery%2C hydraulic fluid%2C etc. can cause a fire that seems very hot. A number of other vehicles could be parked close to the burning one%2C and they too could catch fire%2C with a general conflagration. Any number of cars could contain almost any household items from shopping%2C etc. %0D%0AThese materials are similar to the materials we would expect in the burning offices of the WTC%3A jet fuel %28which is a refined kerosene%2C very similar to the diesel used in some European cars%29%2C oil%2C upholstery%2C etc.%0D%0AA summary of the results of these studies is published on the Corus page. Go to http%3A%2F%2Fwww.corusconstruction.com%2F%0D%0A and click on %22Fire%22. Individual articles are listed across the top of the window. The fourth article%2C %22Fire in Car Parks%2C%22 discusses the temperatures of %22any fires that are likely to occur%22 in a car park http%3A%2F%2Fwww.corusconstruction.com%2Fcarparks%2Fcp006.htm %0D%0APresumably%2C one car could catch fire and inflame other cars parked closely nearby. As explained below%2C %22The maximum temperatures reached %5Bin actual test fires%5D in open sided car parks in four countries%22 was 360 degrees C %28680 F%29%2C and structural steel has %22sufficient inherent resistance to withstand the effects of any fires that are likely to occur.%22%0D%0AHere is the relevant paragraph%2C complete%3A %22Steel-framed car parks have been rigorously fire tested in a number of countries %28Table 3%29. These tests demonstrate that most unprotected steel in open sided steel-framed car parks has sufficient inherent resistance to withstand the effects of any fires that are likely to occur. Table 3 lists the maximum temperatures reached in open sided car park tests in four countries. These can be compared with the characteristic failure temperatures for beams carrying insulating floor slabs and columns of 620 %5Bdegrees%5D C and 550 %5Bdegrees%5D C respectively.%22%0D%0ANote that the description does not limit the duration of the fire. From this it does not appear to matter whether the fire burned all week or just for two hours. No mention is made%2C as some people have suggested %28from erroneous interpretation of other graphs involving time%29%2C that prolonged heat brings about progressive weakening of steel. %3C%0D%0A%3EA fire in a steel car park is a very imprecise event%2C and the heating of the steel supports varied widely in the tests. The temperature of %28horizontal%29 beams varied from 226 C in the USA to 340 C in Australia%3B and the temperature of %28vertical%29 columns varied from 242 C in Japan to 360 C in the UK. None of the steel was protected with the thermal insulation that is commonly used in office buildings%2C including the WTC. %0D%0ATo my mind%2C this is definitive answer%3A the maximum temperature in the unprotected steel supports in those test fires was 360 degrees C %28680 F%29%2C and that is a long way from the first critical threshold in structural steel%2C 550 degrees C %281022 F%29.%3C %0D%0A%3EI think the case is made%3A The fire did not weaken the WTC structure sufficiently to cause the collapse of the towers. %3C%0D%0A%3E%97 J. McMichael %0D%0A%0D%0ADetailed information of the construction World Trade Center %28with many photographs%29 can be found at%0D%0A http%3A%2F%2Fwww.GreatBuildings.com%2Fbuildings%2FWorld_Trade_Center.html http%3A%2F%2Fwww.greatbuildings.com%2Fbuildings%2FWorld_Trade_Center.html %0D%0A%3C%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fduforum%2FDCForumID12%2F2935.html%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2990%26forum%3DDCForumID12%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2926%26forum%3DDCForumID12%5B%2Ffont%5D|63
68|13|These are RNC pointing points%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F|LARED||05:25:44|02/25/2003|Or am I misunderstanding you%3F|67
69|13|Please clarify something |LARED||05:51:08|02/25/2003|%5Bi%5DTo my mind%2C this is definitive answer%3A the maximum temperature in the unprotected steel supports in those test fires was 360 degrees C %28680 F%29%2C and that is a long way from the first critical threshold in structural steel%2C 550 degrees C %281022 F%29.%3C %0D%0A%3EI think the case is made%3A The fire did not weaken the WTC structure sufficiently to cause the collapse of the towers. %3C%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AIf I understand correctly you believe this fire testing in car parks is proof that the fires in the WTC%27s could not have reach a temperature that effects the steel. %0D%0A%0D%0AJust checking as it is unclear if it is your conclusion or someones elses. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DDo right until the stars fall%2C and if they do%2C continue to do right.%5B%2Ffont%5D|67
70|14|Heat plays a significant role ...|DeadBroke||11:12:25|02/25/2003|... in the construction of a steel framed building. Columns%2C beams%2C trusses%2C and braces exposed simply to the sun elongate and grow in length or height often giving big headaches to ironworkers trying to make connections or shim to height. A straight beam at 8 AM on a clear sunny hot summer day can look just like a worm or snake 4 hours later when it%27s lunchtime. %0D%0A%0D%0ANaturally these steel framing members will react to cold as well. Welding is strictly forbidden in air temperatures anywhere near freezing. %0D%0A%0D%0ASticking to heat%3B each framing member reacts differently to the heat of the sun. Columns lean%2C beams twist%2C and trusses stretch%3B all just from the sun. Some framing members react more than others%2C and that all depends on the girth%2C shape and size of the piece and how much work has been done to the piece. A web and the flanges of a column are thicker than those of a beam and so it tends to have less reaction to the heat from the sun than a beam%2C but not if the column has had several connection clips or flanges welded to it or connection holes punched through it. %0D%0A%0D%0AIf heat from sunlight plays havoc with steel during the construction of a buiding%3B the heat from a fire must be able to cause greater effects%2C and cause them much faster. %0D%0A%0D%0ABut just like heat from the sun%2C whatever effects heat from fire will have depends on the girth%2C size and shape of the steel framing member. No two types of framing member will react the same. Trusses react differently from beams. Beams sag much much slower than trusses. The chords of a truss are long and narrow and react or sag much faster from similar heat than will a beam. %0D%0A%0D%0ATemperature is a broad word. There%27s temperature range%2C temperature duration%2C and accumulated temperature. %0D%0A%0D%0AA bedroom with a mattress fire has low temperatures compared to the automotive fire confined to a parking garage previously described. Ducking down beneath the smoke a firefighter can on hands and knees advance a hoseline into the bedroom%2C but if he stands up he will most likely seriously burn his ears and neck. The range of temperature increases%2C increases dramatically%2C from floor to ceiling. If left unattended%2C and if that mattress fire is able to find air and other fuel%2C the duration of that fire and the accumulated temperature forces it to spread. No fire has just one temperature. It%27s impossible to fix any one number to any fire. %0D%0A%0D%0ASo%2C for me having been inside many structure fires and also having seen steel react to varrying levels of heat%2C I believe that the factors that matter most about temperature and it%27s affect on the steel framing members are%3B the range of the temperature%2C and the duration of the temperature.%0D%0A%0D%0AThose 2 factors%2C temperature range and temperature duration%2C affected all the various sizes%2C shapes and thicknesses that were in the structural steel framing the most.%0D%0A|69
75|14|Reply to post 69|shatoga||10:32:28|03/04/2003|%2369 Posted by LARED%3A%0D%0A%3EIf I understand correctly you believe this fire testing in car parks is proof that the fires in the WTC%27s could not have reach a temperature that effects the steel.%0D%0A%0D%0AJust checking as it is unclear if it is your conclusion or someones elses. %3C%0D%0A%0D%0APrior to 911%2C there were no controlled fires in high rise buildings for the purpose of gathering data%2C with which to predict structural failure of steel in high rise fires.%0D%0AThe only available data on steel preformance in fires available was from controlled fires in parking garages.%0D%0AOf course there are differences.%0D%0AThe WTC fires smouldered%2C producing the quite noticable clouds of smoke. they were in closed structures with no chimney effect feeding oxygen from below.%0D%0AIn parking garage fires%2C the entrances%2C open sides and ramps to the roof%2C typically provide an open chimney%2C thus fires in parking garages rarely smoulder and smoke.%0D%0AInstead%2C fed petroleum fuel%2C fed air from all sides%2C under a roof.%0D%0AOr course%2C in the presence of a working fire sprinkler system%2C the fire is short lived%2C because masses of cold water rapidly extinguish fires%2C as is their function.%0D%0ATests must therefore be conducted in non-sprinklered parking garages.%0D%0AThe WTC had sprinkler pipes%2C presumably broken by the aircrafts%27 impact and pouring enourmous quantities of water onto the damaged floors%2C and flooding floors below.%0D%0AThus contributing to the smouldering.%0D%0A%0D%0A%2369 Posted by LARED%3A%0D%0A%3EIf I understand correctly you believe this fire testing in car parks is proof that the fires in the WTC%27s could not have reach a temperature that effects the steel.%0D%0A%0D%0AJust checking as it is unclear if it is your conclusion or someones elses. %3C%0D%0A%0D%0ARegards such circular logic which excludes automatically any test done in other than identical circumstances.%0D%0A%0D%0ATwo comparable logic scenarios%3A%0D%0A1. Scene%3B New Mexico nuclear test grounds. Test just concluded.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Now we have a weapon to bomb Japan%27s coastal cities.%0D%0AThat will wipe out their industry and cripple their Navy in one stroke.%22%0D%0A%22No%2C no%2C no%2C no%21 You%27re a kook%21%0D%0AThese tests are useless%21%0D%0AWe must first test our bomb on an American coastal city%2C %0D%0Abefore any relevant information could possibly be obtained.%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%2369 Posted by LARED%3A%0D%0A%3EIf I understand correctly you believe this fire testing in car parks is proof that the fires in the WTC%27s could not have reach a temperature that effects the steel.%0D%0A%0D%0AJust checking as it is unclear if it is your conclusion or someones elses. %3C%0D%0A%0D%0ARegards such circular logic which excludes automatically any test done in other than identical circumstances.%0D%0A%0D%0ATwo comparable logic scenarios%3A%0D%0A2. Auto makers at crash testing facility.%0D%0A%22with these data%2C we can help you design cars to minimize loss of life in vehicle crashes.%22%0D%0A%22No%2C no%2C no %2Cno%21 You%27re a kook%21%0D%0A%22Car crashes happen on highways%3B not inside warehouses%21%0D%0AAll your data is meaningless. %0D%0AFirst you must go out and crash cars on highways%2C %26 in all states%2C before we could possibly trust any of your data.%0D%0A%28The steel frames might behave differently in on the road crashes than in the test facility crashes%3F%29%0D%0AOnly tests done in totally identical situations can possibly be considered%21%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fduforum%2FDCForumID12%2F2935.html%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2990%26forum%3DDCForumID12%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2926%26forum%3DDCForumID12%5B%2Ffont%5D|69
76|15|Data gathered ...|DeadBroke||14:55:46|03/04/2003|... on how steel reacts to fire heat in parking garages has been%2C and is still being%2C evaluated by the fire service. The fire service is anything but unwilling to investigate anything that will make firefighting safer.%0D%0A%0D%0AAbout fire and air%3A It%27s my opinion%2C from over 30 years as a firefighter and line officer%2C that modern high rise fires are the most difficult. While the modern glass and aluminum building is climate controlled and without the big operable windows of pre-air conditioning days%2C and it looks all sealed up and folks inside complain about stale air%2C it is actually anything but.%0D%0A%0D%0AFire draws air towards it like a magnet. Any firefighter who has opened a door to a fire room will describe the rush of air that passes him towards the fire. In high rise building fires the stairway is the biggest culprit in feeding air to that fire. %0D%0A%0D%0AFighting high rise fires in my town is no different than in NYC. We have to climb the stairs and set up an attack line %28usually a 200 foot long 2.5 inch hose with a 7%2F8 inch smooth bore tip - a low pressure high volume set up%29 off the standpipe connection in the stairwell of the floor below the fire. Cracking that door usually requires two hands. The draw of the fire%2C the way the air rushes in%2C can rip the door from your grip. That door can%27t be closed behind%2C the hose keeps it open%2C so the fire keeps getting air until you reach it and start suppression tactics.%0D%0A%0D%0AModern buildings - built since the early 60s - also have pressurized stairwells. Smoke travels up - and yes%2C even down - stairwells and it compromises rapid evacuation of tenants and hinders the advance of firefighters. So to combat and contol smoke the pressurized stairwell was developed. The pressurized stairwells move air rapidly and often feeds fire. It%27s feeding air is an added problem for suppression that is accepted for normal fire operations only because evacs and life safety clearly weigh in as more important factors. %0D%0A%0D%0AEven though elevators return to the lobby and shut down during fires the shaftways are great sources of air and fire draws from those shaftways. %0D%0A%0D%0A%28Smoke was a major issue affecting the evacuation of thousands in the Trade Center during the bombing incident at the Vista Hotel 10 years ago. The stairwells did not pressurize because the generators shut down. Pipes that supplied cooling water to the generators were broken by the bomb. The stairwells were pressurized on 9-11%29.%0D%0A%0D%0AFire draws air from any direction and doesn%27t care what the source is%2C stairwell. elevator shaft%2C pipe chase%2C or a large hole in the side of a building.%0D%0A%0D%0AWater%3A Each building at the Trade Center had a 10%2C000 gallon top side water tank for the initial sprinkler and standpipe supply. The modern city fire engine has%2C on average%2C a 750 gallon water tank%2C or just enough to suppress a one room with contents fire. 10%2C000 gallons really isn%27t a whole lot of water - that hose connection I described above %28200 foot of 2.5 inch hose with a 7%2F8 inch tip%29 flows 250 gallons per minute at 50 psi. My 1996 fire engine is equipped with a 2%2C000 gpm gallon per minute pump - the one bought last year has a 2%2C500 gpm. 10%2C000 gallons is nothing%2C especially in comparison to the size of the fires on 9-11.%0D%0A%0D%0AAbout fire heat and steel%3A The Trade Center had many different shapes and thicknesses of steel - from base basement columns as thick as a car to truss components as thin as your finger. No two pieces can react the same to the heat applied%2C but also%2C perhaps more important%2C no piece of steel present in the Trade Center was without a force of tension or compression constantly applied on it. Clearly those forces sped any affect the heat from fire had. %0D%0A%0D%0APlace two matching pieces of steel flat between saw horses. Put a brick on top of one. Heat them both%2C record the temperature when the one with the brick on it bends%2C and then much later on%2C record the temp when the one without the brick bends. %0D%0A%0D%0AIt didn%27t take all that much heat to destroy the structural integrity of the steel framing members in the Trade Center%2C and it probably needed very little%2C simply because every piece of steel was in some mode of tension or compression. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A %0D%0A |75
77|16|Are we assuming%3F|shatoga||18:21:01|03/04/2003|that the water supply was shut off %27as the impact occurred%3F%27%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AOr is your post is need of restatement that I %28who spent 30%2B years saving fireman%27s lives%29 as a sprinkler fitter%2Fengineer%2Fcontractor knew nothing about my own field of expertise %28where my testimony was accepted in court as%3A %22expert testimony%22%29%0D%0A%0D%0APlease try again.%0D%0A%0D%0AI found it impossible to accept %22pressurized stairwells%27 %28never encountered one in 7 major cities%29 and fires in which heat does not travel up.%0D%0A%0D%0AHelp me understand and work with you%2C as I have worked with Fire Chiefs%2C courts%2C and Fire Inspectors.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe 1990%27s Philly high rise fire really colored my preception.%0D%0A%0D%0AThat firefighters died because of a non-functioning %28properly%29 standpipe has left me a skeptic about any inadaquate L%26I in any city.%0D%0A%0D%0ARestrictors missing from firehose stations there convinced me that firefighters could die from incomptetence at any level.%0D%0AAfter Philly L%26I rejected my phone calls about missing restrictors%2Fthat is.%0D%0A%0D%0ASkeptic from that day forward.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fduforum%2FDCForumID12%2F2935.html%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2990%26forum%3DDCForumID12%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2926%26forum%3DDCForumID12%5B%2Ffont%5D|76
79|17|No ....|DeadBroke||20:08:37|03/04/2003| ... I never said%2C suggested%2C implied%2C and certainly did not assume that the built in fire supression system at the Trade Center%2C the sprinklers%2C were shut off from impact%3B what I said%2C and what I said in other DU threads before%2C is that the 10%2C000 gallons avaiable from the topside water tank was inadequate for a fire of the type and size on 9-11. The sprinkler system%2C supplied by that tank%2C and supplemented via risers and pumps from street level water mains%2C was only adequate for supressing or controling standard fires of regular origin. As I%27ve stated before%3B the first line of defense in a building fire is the sprinkler%2C the second line of defense is the fire department%2C and the third and final line of defense is the materials used in construction. I%27m sure that the sprinkler system activated on 9-11%3B in fact I%27ve never%2C in 30 plus years%2C seen a sprinkler system not activate%2C but I%27ve seen fires of unforseen consequence grow too large for the planned and existing system to be effective. %0D%0A%0D%0AI also did not say%2C suggest or imply that heat doesn%27t travel up%3B what I did say%2C contrary to common belief%2C is that smoke will also travel down. For that matter%2C while the common belief is that heat only rises%2C the fact is that heat actually will travel down too. Fire draws air from anywhere it can%2C and the smoke and heat from that fire will go off in any direction and travel through any avenue - up - down - left - right - anywhere%2C especially in high rise buildings.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m very surprised that you have no knowledge of pressurized stairwells. It%27s been around for well over 50 years%2C and there have been great improvements made to it over the years%3B to include hallways%2C escalator banks%2C and elevator shafts. Even low rise 3 story office buildings in my town have them. As I stated in other DU threads%2C and as has been reported in numerous official reports%2C workers that survived both the first attack on the Trade Center 10 years ago and the 9-11 attack reported that visibility in the stairwells was much better%2C actually normal%2C on 9-11 compared to the attack 10 years ago. The pressurization fans did not work 10 years ago because the generators shut down after they overheated. They overheated because the bomb destroyed the cooling water supply to the generators. This has also been greatly discussed in fire service magazines and on fire websites - including the comparison photos of the stairwells during both events%2C and the simple system of fans and shutters that make it%2C stairwell pressurization%2C possible. %0D%0A%0D%0AThese stairwells usually automatically pressurize with activation of a fire alarm or a water flow%2C just like elevators returning to the lobby. Nothing new. Highrise firefighting 101.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A|77
81|18|Some cut and paste|LARED||21:07:20|03/04/2003|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailyreviewonline.com%2FStories%2F0%2C1413%2C88%25257E10973%25257E862247%2C00.html%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DInterior walls of the World Trade Center towers were all gypsum wallboard --1-inch-thick sheet rock. %22When the plane hit%2C most of these walls broke and some dropped into the stairwells and stopped people from evacuating%2C%22 he said. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe wallboard collapse caused another problem%2C Astaneh said. In the towers to prevent fire spreading to the stairwells and then to other floors%2C the stairwells were pressurized to keep smoke and fire out. %22But when the walls were breached%2C the system failed.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AAstaneh believes burning fuel from the planes spread into the stairwells through the breached walls. %5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DDo right until the stars fall%2C and if they do%2C continue to do right.%5B%2Ffont%5D|79
82|19|Everyone at one ...|DeadBroke||22:06:46|03/04/2003|.... time or another makes statement that can cause confusion%2C be misinterperted%3B or make a comment that may be too broad for a narrow issue%2C or make a comment that may too narrow for a broad issue. %0D%0A%0D%0ASuch is case of the Astaneh statement about the failure of the pressurization system. %0D%0A%0D%0AHis narrow statement about the pressurization system failing has caused confusion because it%27s been misinterperted by some to mean there was only one system.  %0D%0A%0D%0AThere was not just one system. There was more than just one system in each structure%2C more than just one generator%2C and there were many enhancements and improvements to the systems%2C mostly in the form of back up systems%2C that the bombing 10 years ago necessitated. Each structure had four systems%2C with air intake and discharge ports at the motor room floors. %0D%0A%0D%0AIf the pressurization system did fail in the areas where the building was severed by the plane%27s impact%2C as Astaneh claims%2C we know from eyewitness survivor accounts that the other systems remained operating. Photos of firefighters ascending the smoke free stairs on 9-11 were posted on firehouse.com as were the personal stories of those who lived through both the smoke and darkness filled stairwells on 2-26-93 and those on 9-11. %0D%0A%0D%0ANo offense%2C but Astaneh%27s statement should not be interperted to mean that the system - the whole system that is - failed. It didn%27t.|81
83|18|Ah%21 I was never in a burning building|shatoga||15:24:36|03/05/2003|therefore I never encountered a pressurized stairwell.%0D%0A%0D%0AI grant that instantly on that premise.%0D%0A%0D%0AHowever the issue in this thread is about the effect of heat on the structural steel.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhich burning building were you in that you saw steel columns suddenly collapse lenghtwise%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AI say with conviction%3A it has not yet happened.%0D%0A%0D%0ANor has any burning building ever yet imploded as a result of damage from one side or otherwise.%0D%0A%0D%0AAs for %3Efires of regular origion%3C no such thing.%0D%0AEach fire is unique.%0D%0A%0D%0AThat the fire protection systems had only the water in an upper floor tank%2C upon which to rely.%0D%0AKnowledge of fire sprinkler systems is entirely lacking in that statement.%0D%0AFire mains supply those tanks 24%2F7 and booster pumps are commonly installed.%0D%0ATry again to convince me you actually know fire science.%0D%0ANot yet convinced%21%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fduforum%2FDCForumID12%2F2935.html%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2990%26forum%3DDCForumID12%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2926%26forum%3DDCForumID12%5B%2Ffont%5D|79
84|19|Read%2C think%2C then type.|DeadBroke||17:19:46|03/05/2003|I never said that I saw steel columns collapse lengthwise. I%27ve seen columns %28they%27re the ones%2C by the way%2C that go up and down - beams go left and right%29 bend%2C twist%2C and snap - for all sorts of reasons%2C including but not limited to heat. %0D%0A%0D%0ANow%2C trusses%2C %28again%2C left and right - not up and down%29 gosh%2C I%27ve seen lots%2C LOTS of them sag from heat%2C and not from too much heat at that. In a blink they go from straight to looking just like stretched out clotheslines. %0D%0A%0D%0AI don%27t know fire science - I just know how to put fires out. I must have learned something after 30 plus years worth of crawling on my knees through smoke and humping hose up stairs and down dark hallways.%0D%0A%0D%0ASeroiusly%2C how many times were you in the Trade Center%3F What brand of sprinkler heads were there%3F What was the link temp and what was the flow of those heads%3F Are you in the know - or are you just another one of those people that knows somebody that knows somebody who kne somebody who suppossedly knew something%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ALet me tell you a little bit about what I know about the Trade Center - by the way%3B from being there%2C seeing it%2C touching it%2C and asking questions of the great folks that worked there%3A%0D%0A%0D%0AStandpipes - the system in the WTC was an arrangement of piping%2C valves%2C pumps%2C tanks%2C and hose stations. It%27s function was to provide a reliable means of applying water streams on a fire in the shortest possible time. The hose stations were situated so that any area of a floor can be reached by a stream of water from a hose station in that area.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe source of water for the fire standpipe system in the WTC was the domestic water suppy system. The water is transported to all buildings and subgrade areas in the WTC by two eight inch mains%28loops%29. Also%2C the system had manually controlled fire pumps and reserve tanks. The function of the reserve tanks was to provide water for the hose stations during the initial period of firefighting%2C before the fire pumps could be started.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe WTC had two fire stanpipe eight-inch water distribution loops. One loop was in the ceiling of the concourse level and the other was in the ceiling of the B-1 level. The first loop supplied water to the riser in 5 WTC%2C and 4 WTC and their sublevels. The other loop served 1 WTC and 2 WTC%2C the Vista Hotel%2C the Customs House%2C and the subgrades. The loops were connected at two points on the truck dock of the Customs House at the north central portion of the WTC and in the southern portion of the WTC.%0D%0A%0D%0AVertical risers emanating from the loops carried water up into the towers and the other buildings in the WTC and down into the sublevels and subgrades. Risers connected to the loop on the concourse level carried water up into 5 WTC ad 4 WTC and down into their sublevels.%0D%0A%0D%0AIn addition to the piping in the standpipe system%2C there were seven water storage tanks. The storage tanks supply water to the hose stations during the initial period of firefightng before the pumps could be started. The pumps are required to supply the additional water needed to fight larger fires.%0D%0A%0D%0AThere were 15 fire pumps in the fire protection system in the WTC. Twelve were centrifugal pumps and three were jockey pumps. Eight of the centrifugal pumps were for the standpipe systed%28located on floors B1 and 108 in each tower%29. The three jockey pumps were for the sprinkler system%3Bone on the B-1 level and in  each tower on floor 108%28for pressure maintainence%29.%0D%0A%0D%0ANow%2C the sprinkler system - The design of the sprinkler system in both towers was similar. As you should know%2C the direction of water flow in the risers is downward. There were three separate risers in each tower%2C with each riser serving different groups of floors.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe risers were designated A%2C B and C. Riser A supplied the uppermost floors%2C 99 through 110%3B riser B supplied floors 32 through 98%3B and riser C supplied floors 1 through 31.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe risers passed through the floors in the service closets on each tenanted floor and deviated from plumb vertical only as required by changes in building construction at various elevations.%0D%0A%0D%0ATwo 10%2C000 gallon  tanks - one for each structure were used to supply the sprinkler system. The 10%2C000-gallon tanks supplied the sprinkler system exclusively and were located on the 110th floor. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe sprinkler tanks supplied water to inlets of risers A and B and were automatically refilled by the domestic water system via float-control valves. The fire standpipe tanks also supplied water to risers A%2C B%2C and C and were also refilled by the domestic water system. Riser C in 1 WTC was cross connected with riser C in 2 WTC via a four-inch pipe from the siamese connections. The function of the cross connecitons was to provide FDNY with the capability to supply water to the C risers in both towers and control their pressures.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe sprinkler centrifugal pump in each tower on the 108th floor had a dual purpose. Its main function was to increase the pressure of the water to the sprinklers on the floors closest to the holding tanks%28floors 107 to 99%29to the pressure required for operating the sprinklers. However%2C the pump also was used to supply water to some of the fire hose racks on the 110th floor.%0D%0A%0D%0AAs the downward distance from the holding tanks increased%28floors 98 and below%29%2C the pressure %28it%27s called head%29 of the water in the risers increased to the point where the additional pump pressure was not required.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe rest of the complex -namely%2C the subgrade levels%2C 5 WTC%2C and 4 WTC- was part of a second sprinkler system completely separate from the one of the towers. This second system consisted of a large loopmain with the risers going down into the subgrades and sublevels and rising up in 5 WTC and 4 WTC.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe function of the fire pumps and the jockey pump was to maintain the water pressure in the system at 155 psi. %0D%0A%0D%0AOf the three sprinkler fire pumps%28two centrifugal and one jockey%29on the B-1 level%2C one centrifugal pump and he jockey pump were located in a pump room under 1 WTC%3B the other centrifugal pump was located in a pump room under 2 WTC.%0D%0A%0D%0AHouse fire hose and house extinguishers - One and one half inch fire hose stations and fire extinguishers were located inside the emergency fire exit stairwells. The WTC Port Authority Police also had pre-positioned firefighting equipment carts in the sky lobbies of the towers. These carts were equipped with three kinds of fire extinguishers%28water%2C carbon dioxide%2C and dry chemical%29%2C fire hose and nozzles%2C self-contained breathing apparatus%2C turnout gear%2C entry tools%2C resuscitators%2C and first-aid equipment.%0D%0A%0D%0AThis is my last post at DU. I%27ve very quickly grown tired of individuals like you interrupting the sane conversations of others and I will spend my time more usefully than trying to enlighten you with basic 101 stuff.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A|83
85|20|a little knowledge is a dangerous thing as you  proved|shatoga||20:15:08|03/05/2003|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-03 AT 08:22 PM (ET)[/font][p]Posted by DeadBroke%3A%0D%0A%3EAs you should know%2C the direction of water flow in the risers is downward.%3C%0D%0ARisers carry water UP from the underground supply lines to the ceiling or overhead piping.%0D%0Arise%3A to move upward %0D%0ALacking that basic knowledge leaves every one of your other  comments in doubt%2C as to basic credibility.%0D%0Aand ability to even use search IMHO%3A%0D%0Ariser%3A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Ffire.ucdavis.edu%2Fucdfire%2FUCDFDfirenet03.htm%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.jrcci.com%2Fphotos%2Fnebo_annex%2Fweb_gen%2F%0D%0AI didn%27t even have to pull out one of my many old NFPA-13%27s or contact any of the many UA Sprinkler Locals.%0D%0A%0D%0A %0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.ua.org%2F%0D%0A%3EThe person who works with his hands is a laborer%3B the person who works with his hands and his head is an artisan%3B the person who works with his hands%2C his head and his heart is a member of the UA. %3C%0D%0Awww.sprinklerfitters669.org%2F%0D%0ABest single source on fireProtection on the internet.%0D%0AQuote my posts%2C they%27ll recognise me.%0D%0A%0D%0AIn the fire protection Industry%3A%0D%0A%22Everybody knows a riser functions to let water %27rise%27 up to the overhead piping.%22%0D%0A%0D%0ABut to %28charitably%29treat your comments without resorting to insults about whether %27your ignorant comments%27 are %0D%0A%28Posted by DeadBroke%3A%29%0D%0A%3Einterrupting the sane conversations of others%3E%0D%0AI%27ll attempt to reply with the courtesy you are totally lacking yourself%3A%0D%0A%0D%0AFirst.%0D%0APosted by DeadBroke%0D%0A%3EThe sprinkler tanks supplied water to inlets of risers A and B and were automatically refilled by the domestic water system via float-control valves. %3C%0D%0ADomestic %28drinking%29 water mains and sprinkler mains are not the same. %28nor are they cross connected%29%0D%0AIn those applications where no fire mains are present %28NYC had fire mains%29 backflow preventers must be installed to keep sprinkler water from contaminating potable water supplies.%0D%0ADual%2C specially designed %27check valves%27 not float control valves.%0D%0A%27Water tank level%27 control %28like a toilet tank%29 is done by float control valves%0D%0AI%27ve been licensed in several states to install backflow preventers. %0D%0A%0D%0Awhat sprinklers were in use%3F%0D%0ADepends on the fire area%3A%0D%0A155 degree Central model %22A%22 in most offices and stairwells.%0D%0AIn high temperature areas the sprinklers would be of a different rating.%0D%0A%0D%0ARisers%3A%0D%0APosted by DeadBroke%3A%0D%0A%3EAs you should know%2C the direction of water flow in the risers is downward.%3C%0D%0ARisers carry water UP from the underground supply lines to the ceiling or overhead piping.%0D%0Arise%3A to move upward  %28use a dictionary to comprehend this simple concept%29%0D%0A%0D%0ALacking that basic knowledge leaves every other of your comments in doubt as to credibility.%0D%0A%0D%0AAll waterflow is down%2C if gravity is the only cause of movement.%0D%0A%0D%0AFire mains carry more pressure than domestic water mains.%0D%0A%0D%0AThanks for pointing out the pumps which made sure sufficient water was available to extinguish fires in areas covered by automatic sprinkler systems.%0D%0A%0D%0APosted by DeadBroke%3A%0D%0A%3EAs the downward distance from the holding tanks increased%28floors 98 and below%29%2C the pressure %28it%27s called head%29 of the water in the risers increased to the point where the additional pump pressure was not required.%3C%0D%0ARestrictors are installed at all firehose racks in highrise buildings.%0D%0A%0D%0AAll a fireman needs to know is %22pull out the hose%2F then open the valve%22%0D%0ASprinkler fitters must know that the graduated restrictors keep a constant feed at all floors.%0D%0A%0D%0AThat way the increase in pressure due to gravity is offset by smaller holes at lower floors and progressivley larger holes at upper floors.%0D%0A%0D%0ADon%27t feel embarrassed at being one of many firemen ignorant of fire science and the engineering principles of sprinkler Systems.%0D%0A%0D%0AI confess%3A%0D%0AI%27ve stood next to the fire chief and asked why his men used a chain saw to cut open a roof and feed the house fire with a chimney effect.%0D%0A%22You don%27t understand.%22 %0D%0ARight%21%0D%0AI don%27t understand helping a building to burn down instead of putting the fire out at it%27s base.%0D%0A%0D%0AJust remembered%2C I have been in one burning building%3A Mesa Arizona%2C firemen drenched me with a firehose as I crossed a HS gym to shut off a burning acetylene tank. %28blowout valve had been burned through by falling slag from careless torch use.%29%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ve trained Firemen in several Fire Departments%2C from Easton PA to the Bronx.%0D%0A%0D%0AAs for interrupting the %22sane conversations%22 of others who lack knowledge to post wholly intelligent comments..%0D%0AI don%27t agree with  your spurious definition of sane.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0APhiladelphia firemen have bought me drinks because they respect my expertise and dedication to making sure any  system works as designed.%0D%0AI%27ve trained Fire inspectors in Bethlehem%2C Allentown and central NJ.%0D%0AMy name on a job meant no inspection was needed to sign occupancy permits.%0D%0AInspectors knew I would meet all codes%2C both local and national %28NFPA-13%29%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.nfpa.org%2FCodes%2FNFPA_Codes_and_Standards%2FList_of_NFPA_documents%2FNFPA_13.asp%0D%0A%28I took classes every year %7Bfor 30 years%7D to keep current on changes to NFPA-13%29%0D%0AIf I did the job%2C it was done right%21%0D%0AI%27ve quit rather than cut corners%2C or allow my crew to cut corners.%0D%0A%0D%0AShow some of them my posts and they will recognize my speaking style and give you my name%3B%0D%0Aalong with a few stories.%0D%0A%0D%0AAny moderator here can ask for%2C and get my credentials.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fduforum%2FDCForumID12%2F2935.html%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2990%26forum%3DDCForumID12%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2926%26forum%3DDCForumID12%5B%2Ffont%5D|84
86|21|a quick P.S. to my last .......|DeadBroke||20:41:09|03/05/2003|... and final message to you%2C and here at DU%2C is that it might appear that I made a slight error in describing the risers at the Trade Center. I did start off my description of the sprinklers by saying that the flow is downward%2C knowing full well that it is upward in nearly every other sprinkler system%2C but you are overlooking the fact I was describing the Trade Center%2C and in THAT system the water flow was in fact downward in the risers from the 10%2C000 gallon tank%2C not upward from the street mains as in nearly every other application. Water flows down into sprinkler systems when supplied from tanks above. Sorry you misread. I really tried describing the Trade Center systems as simply and as elementary as possible. Perhaps someone with better reading skills and level thinking would have understood it.  |85
88|22|Calm down and read post 87|shatoga||20:47:30|03/05/2003|We can disagree without insulting each other.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ll start by not calling you insane as you called me for interrupting you.%0D%0A%0D%0AYour turn......%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fduforum%2FDCForumID12%2F2935.html%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2990%26forum%3DDCForumID12%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2926%26forum%3DDCForumID12%5B%2Ffont%5D|86
96|22|I seriously ask you to stay here|Endimion||18:49:59|03/06/2003|Please don%27t go away. You have a lot of experience%2C and we need it.%0D%0A%0D%0AShatoga%2C don%27t feel offensed by me. You are okay%2C too.%0D%0A%0D%0AJust please stop fighting%2C both of you.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bb%5DEvil piggies are everywhere...BEWARE%5B%2Fb%5D %5B%2Ffont%5D|86
91|19|Not exactly accurate |LARED||23:16:29|03/05/2003|%5Bi%5DWhich burning building were you in that you saw steel columns suddenly collapse lenghtwise%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AI say with conviction%3A it has not yet happened.%0D%0A%0D%0ANor has any burning building ever yet imploded as a result of damage from one side or otherwise.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ll have to dig up the link%2C but there have been something like 20%2B multistory steel building that have collapsed from fire in the past. None were skyscrapers%2C but there were steel framed building. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DDo right until the stars fall%2C and if they do%2C continue to do right.%5B%2Ffont%5D|83
97|18|Smoke up%2C smoke down|Endimion||19:18:01|03/06/2003|%5Bi%5Dwhat I did say%2C contrary to common belief%2C is that smoke will also travel down.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat kind of smoke%3F%0D%0AI believe you are reffering to a gas that forms while heating organic matter without oxygen supply %28dry distillation%29.%0D%0AAnd it is flamable.%0D%0AHere is a little experiment. Grab 2 big tissue rollers and remove the paper. You%27ll get 2 cardboard pipes. Now attach them together to make one bigger pipe. Place it vertically on an aluminium foil. Make a %22cork%22 from the paper to fit on the top. Now ignite one point at 2%2F3 of pipe%27s height. If the fire burns long enough without bursting the pipe%2C you%27ll get a heavy%2C smelly%2C yellowish smoke peeking from the bottom of pipe. Lift the pipe a bit %281 mm%29 to get the smoke literally pour our%2C but not to much to avoid sudden ignition of the gases inside %28it is not nice%2C makes you nervous%29. That smoke is very rich with hydrocarbons and it acts like a fluid. It has very different composition from an ordinary smoke %28which is unflamable%2C less smelly%2C etc.%29%0D%0ANow that is something I can imagine cascading the stairs%2C IF the pressurization fails. And that could in some cases even spread a fire. But not often%2C cause it is likely to burn out before something happens.%0D%0A%0D%0AThis is the part where I ask you about something I asked you before%2C and you didn%27t answer me.%0D%0AFlashovers. Could you give me some of your experiences%3F%0D%0AI am very interested in it.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bb%5DEvil piggies are everywhere...BEWARE%5B%2Fb%5D %5B%2Ffont%5D|79
80|15|Lets try this again|LARED||20:50:19|03/04/2003|From post 67 you wrote %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DTo my mind%2C this is definitive answer%3A the maximum temperature in the unprotected steel supports in those test fires was 360 degrees C %28680 F%29%2C and that is a long way from the first critical threshold in structural steel%2C 550 degrees C %281022 F%29.%3C %0D%0A%3EI think the case is made%3A The fire did not weaken the WTC structure sufficiently to cause the collapse of the towers. %3C%0D%0A%3E%97 J. McMichael%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AIt was unclear to me if the definitive answer %28that the max temperature was 680 F%29 was yours %28Shatago%29 or J. McMichael. %0D%0A%0D%0AI thought it was a simple request.   %0D%0A%0D%0ASo%2C who%27s conclusion it it%3F %0D%0A%0D%0ARegarding your logic quiz. What are you taking about%3F I asked a simple question. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AIf I assume Shatago and J. McMichael are the same person%2C it does seem you believe the max temperature of the steel in the TC was 680 deg F. Which I frankly don%27t understand how you came to that conclusion as in your reply to me you have a laundry list of difference between the two scenarios.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DDo right until the stars fall%2C and if they do%2C continue to do right.%5B%2Ffont%5D|75
89|16|%27splained for your  clarity |shatoga||20:52:35|03/05/2003|%22If you don%27t disagree with me how will I know I%27m right.%22 by Sam Goldwin %0D%0Awas my only comment or quote directed at you personally LARED.%0D%0A%0D%0AAll the rest of that post was quotes to help inform anyone reading here and attempting to learn about the topic.%0D%0A%0D%0A%28Like most of my posts%2F the purpose is to inform or generate questions%29%0D%0Aanyone who takes it personally is assuming more than I intended.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fduforum%2FDCForumID12%2F2935.html%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2990%26forum%3DDCForumID12%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2926%26forum%3DDCForumID12%5B%2Ffont%5D|80
90|17|Really%3F|LARED||23:11:45|03/05/2003|%5Bi%5DAll the rest of that post was quotes to help inform anyone reading here and attempting to learn about the topic....%0D%0A%0D%0Aanyone who takes it personally is assuming more than I intended.%0D%0A%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0ASo why do you reply to my post%3F Most people correctly assume that if you relpy to a post%2C the comments are directed at them. Hence%2C why the little link thing is titled %22reply%22. Also%2C if your only comment to me was from the goofball Sam Goldwin%2C here%27s a piece of advice%2C don%27t bother.  %0D%0A%0D%0ACan you please answer my question.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22So%2C who%27s conclusion it it%3F %22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DDo right until the stars fall%2C and if they do%2C continue to do right.%5B%2Ffont%5D|89
92|18|fire protection engineers trade magazine cited|shatoga||15:00:57|03/06/2003|%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0ADisclaimer%3A no accusations against anyone.%0D%0AIf a shoe fits..it%27s not my problem%21%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ARelevant to investigating the temperature of fires in the WTC%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%28Not my words%2C but an accurate conclusion %28by someone else%29 with which I agree.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EJanuary 4%2C 2002%3A A firefighter trade magazine with ties to the New York Fire Department calls the investigation into the collapse of the WTC a %22half-baked farce.%22 %0D%0AThe article points out that the probe has not looked at all aspects of the disaster and has had limited access to documents and other evidence. %0D%0A%22The destruction and removal of evidence must stop immediately.%22 %0D%0AIt concludes that a growing number of %5Bb%5Dfire protection engineers%5B%2Fb%5D have theorized that %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5D%5Bi%5D%22the structural damage from the planes and the explosive ignition of jet fuel in themselves were not enough to bring down the towers.%22%5B%2Fi%5D%5B%2Fb%5D %0D%0ANew York Daily News%2C 1%2F4%2F02 2002%2Fnydailynews010402.html%0D%0A%3E%2C Fire Engineering%2C 1%2F02 2002%2Ffireengineering0102.html%0D%0A%0D%0ATruth does not become irrelevant with age.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fduforum%2FDCForumID12%2F2935.html%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2990%26forum%3DDCForumID12%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2926%26forum%3DDCForumID12%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0AAnyone who wanted a private conversation would use PM%27s or e-mail%2C like the rest of the world does.%0D%0AA publicly available post%2C which provides information from a relevant source%2C may contribute to the discussion without feeding any one person%27s ego.%0D%0A%0D%0A Disclaimer%3A no accusations against anyone.%0D%0AIf a shoe fits..it%27s not my problem%21%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A|90
94|19|Re%3A|LARED||15:32:08|03/06/2003|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Mar-06-03 AT 03:35 PM (ET)[/font][p]I agree the investigation into the WTC could have been handled better. Having said that%2C I disagree calling it a %22half-baked farce%22 is accurate. %0D%0A%0D%0ARegarding the statement%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5D%22the structural damage from the planes and the explosive ignition of jet fuel in themselves were not enough to bring down the towers.%22 %5B%2Fi%5D%3B %0D%0A%0D%0AI agree completely.%0D%0A%0D%0AI think without the subsequent fires the towers would have remained standing. I think most knowledgeable people %28including the writer of that article%29 I agree that is the case.  %0D%0A%0D%0AI part I don%27t understand is you seem to believe the fires in the WTC were not hot enough to cause the steel failures and then post an article were the writer indicates that the fires caused the steel failure. %0D%0A%0D%0AI guess I%27m missing your point. %0D%0A%0D%0A  %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DDo right until the stars fall%2C and if they do%2C continue to do right.%5B%2Ffont%5D|92
95|20|Sorry to hack into your subthread|Endimion||18:44:31|03/06/2003|Do you think that the ignition of the fuel was explosive%3F%0D%0AI really don%27t think it was. Explosion is a completely different thing.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DI part I don%27t understand is you seem to believe the fires in the WTC were not hot enough to cause the steel failures and then post an article were the writer indicates that the fires caused the steel failure.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AI believe you missed something. Of course the fires were hot%2C but not all fires. Here we have a caotic fire situation %28caotic as variable%2C not intense%29%2C fire shifting%2C decreasing%2C growing%2C smouldering%2C etc.%0D%0AThere were pockets of fire that were different by their origin%2C and by that their temperature was different. And size was not a constant. There were never floors fully envolved in fire. The strongest fire was in first 10-15 minutes after plane impacts.%0D%0AIt is not very good idea to observe at these fires from a state of cold cruel basic physic%2C simply cause they were caotic. Shatoga and Deadbroke seem to have a lot of experience with fires%2C so they could be very helpful if they stop fighting.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut we seem to split at different dirrections when the question is about the quantity of intense fire. From all pictures I have%2C from all videos I checked%2C I see that lot of fire was at early stages of the attack.%0D%0AMaybe you won%27t believe%2C but before my HD event I had several pictures of people standing at the windows 1-2 columns away from fire. Those pictures were closeups of biggest fire pockets. Later%2C all that was smouldering. Strong%2C intense fire was burning for just a few minutes. I had a really good picture of fire pocket %28N tower%2C E wall%29 with people just waiting without any panic. Of course there were jumpers%2C too. Till this day%2C I have no idea how many people jumped that morning. I heard 20-30. If that%27s true%2C then I must say it is a small number. Most of this people were drugged by smoke%2C or just desperate. Not many jumped cause of fire%2C and those were people only from 94th-95th floor. Many more poor folks have been climbing the floors in order to get up %28aparently all stairwells were destroyed%29 to be close to their colleagues and friends. Unfortunatelly%2C many accidentaly fell. I don%27t know why was it so hard to climb up %28or even smarter - climb down%29those perimeter columns. Maybe cause of height%3F They were easy to clasp. 14%27 with 2%27 %28or so%29 by side.%0D%0A%0D%0AWTC tower%27s floors although columnless%2C had a lot of cubicle walls%2C compartments%2C... It WAS actually acting in a fire like a common building. From your statements%2C I see that you look at one floor as an empty pocket with flimsy windows%2C waithing to burn in hellish %22forest fire%22.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bb%5DEvil piggies are everywhere...BEWARE%5B%2Fb%5D %5B%2Ffont%5D|94
98|20|My Point  --All things considered--|shatoga||20:24:40|03/06/2003|The more information %28evidence%29 available%2C the more likely that we can sift through it all and determine what actually happened.%0D%0A%0D%0ATo dismiss anything just because you or I personally do not believe it credible%2C is to limit the scope of the effort to merely conform to our own prejudices..%0D%0A%0D%0AExample is those who believed we should limit our inquiries into the Tonkin Gulf Incident%3B%0D%0A to how many North Vietnames torpedo Boats attacked the US Navy vessels%2C or why did they attack%3F%0D%0Avs%2F%0D%0AThose who were willing to consider %27there was no actual attack%2C%27 and the US Navy personnel and Lyndon Johnson were lying about the whole thing.%0D%0A%28as history has proven%29%0D%0A%0D%0AAll things considered-%0D%0AAll things considered%2C to allow us each to make our own decisions.%0D%0A%0D%0AExample is those who questioned the %27tanks massed to invade Saudi Arabia%27 story by Bush the first.%0D%0A%22Tinfoilhatters%22 working for the St Petersburg Times in Florida went outside of US government sources and bought sattelite photos from Russians%2C which showed not one single tank near any Saudi Border.%0D%0A%0D%0AWho is qualified to decide for everyone else what is legitimate and what is %22tinfoil hat%22%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AHistory proves over and over that the %27tinfoilhatters%27 turn out to be right time after time.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat%27s wrong with letting anyone have an honest say%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AIf we disagree with their premise%3B%0D%0AWe can either ignore them or post evidence to refute their premise and show another more likely explanation.%0D%0A%0D%0AI strongly disagreed with Killer%27s premise that explosives were used as aggregate in the WTC decks%2C %0D%0Abut I respected his right to believe %0D%0Aand posted proofs that%3A mere expansion due to heat of lightweight aggregates in common use would serve just as well%2C%0D%0Awith no conspiracy needed.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s not necessary to call someone a kook just because they are off on a tangent%2C in our opinions.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m a Democrat because I respect the right of others to disagree with me on details%2C yet still believe we can work together for the common good.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DLiberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence%3B Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fduforum%2FDCForumID12%2F2935.html%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2990%26forum%3DDCForumID12%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2926%26forum%3DDCForumID12%5B%2Ffont%5D|94
51|7|Tyger%21 Tyger%21 burning bright |plaguepuppy||01:14:40|02/23/2003|In the forests of the night.%0D%0AWhat immortal hand or eye%0D%0ACould frame thy fearful symmetry%3F%0D%0A%5Blink%3Anths.newtrier.k12.il.us%2Facademics%2Ffaculty%2Fmedwin%2FMedwinPoetryWeb%2F4th%2520period%2FTheTiger2%2Fdefault.htm%7CWilliam Blake%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AThe symmetry problem is deeper than the question of assymetrical damage.  Even if a collapse could somehow be initiated in a perfectly symmetrical way it would be unstable and would not tend to remain centered and symmetrical.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe fact that the damage was so assymetrical in both towers only makes the problem worse.  Since there is no prior experience with buildings of this design collapsing it may not appear obvious%2C but the really is no force tending to pull the collapsing debris in toward the center.  The idea has been suggested that the outer walls confined the collapse%2C but this can hardly be true when the walls themselves are shattering and falling away in parallel with the collapse.  There is no suggestion of an internal fall of the floors with intact outer walls guiding them%2C for such a collapse would leave intact walls that would stand for a while after the floors had collapsed before becoming unstable and toppling.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd there is one very big thing%2C the core%2C that is actively pushing the debris out away from the center - the core itself.  There is no way that the weight of the lighter upper portions of the core columns could crush the heavier guage columns below them%2C and unless something removes the core the collapse will migrate to one side and end well before reaching the ground.  And the remaining damaged stub building  would be very assymetrical and much bigger that what was left on 9-11.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bfont  size%3D1%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Will our children be sacrificial lambs offered up%0D%0Ato ease the fears of multinational corporations%0D%0Alike so many brainwashed media zombies%3F%0D%0APetroleum and its byproducts should not be a dependency%0D%0Ain a technology-based society.  Nothing lasts forever%2C %0D%0Aand we cannot ask God for our gasoline.%22%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dblue%5D%5Blink%3Aimages.indymedia.org%2Fimc%2Fontario%2Frise_robots_rise_-_rise_robots_rise_-_03_-_flowers_and_birds.mp3%7C%22Flowers and Birds%22%5D by %5Bb%5D Rise Robots Rise%5B%2Fb%5D%2C 1991%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Blink%3Awww.daveyd.com%2Fparistrack.mp3%7CParis%3A What Would You Do%3F%5D%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%22In as much as all beings are our kindly parents%2C%0D%0A it would be a cause of regret to have aversion for%0D%0A and thus disown or abandon any of them.%22%0D%0A                                        ---Tantric precept%0D%0A%5Blink%3Ahome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2Fwsb%2Fhtml%2Fview.cgi-home.html-.html%7CPlaguepuppy%27s Homepage%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D|43
64|8|You%27ve described those steel columns ...|DeadBroke||09:57:38|02/24/2003|.... in the core perfectly%2C but I respectfully disagree about the inabilty of the weight of lighter upper portions of the core columns to crush the heavier guage columns below them. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe topmost core columns in the Trade Center carried half the compressive loads of the roof. %28The design and use of trusses for the floors forced the outer walls to carry the other half of the roof%27s compressive load%29. The core columns of the next floor down carried twice the compressive load as those above%2C and so on and so on until the total compressive load accumulated at the lowest columns. That total accumulated load was then carried through the ground and down to solid bedrock through pilings. %0D%0A%0D%0AEach core column had it%27s own strength factors%2C but each column was also dependent on the other columns it was attached to for carrying all the compressive loads applied. %0D%0A%0D%0AAnyone watching steel framing being erected marvels at the speed it%27s done with. The truth is that while everyone is watching the derricks lift and swing steel columns and beams into place much more work%2C critical work in fact%2C is going on below. Those columns have to be perfectly plumb and racked%2C or straight. Cables and turn buckles have to be placed between columns and beams and twisted until they are straight. Modern lasers are used%2C so are ancient tools like plumb bobs and water levels. The most important item is a pencil. Ironworkers use the Pythagorean Theory %28we call it the 3-4-5 Rule%29 and other formulas to check for straightness and proper angles. When done%2C when all bolted up and welded%2C a very straight and very rigid core results.  %0D%0A%0D%0AThe rigid core does much more than hold up the compressive loads above it. The rigid steel framing of the core in the Trade Center also served to resist lateral forces applied to the building such as wind - but it%27s rigid core was only one-fourth of the solution to problems of wind%3B the footprint or size and shape of the building was another fourth of the solution%2C the depth of the building into the ground is a forth%2C and the weight of the building was the last forth. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe 200 X 200 size and shape of the Trade Center%2C plus the rigid core%2C plus the depth into the ground%2C plus the overall weight kept it standing against high winds for years%3B but the four factors are not all equal. The last factor%2C weight was the real key. Without weight the other three%2C the size of the building%2C the depth into the ground%2C and the rigidness of the core%2C would have to have been increased dramatically. Weight was the key. A sailing ship needs weight below the water line to keep from tipping over.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s always been my opinion that the lack of ordinary typical and redundant steel framing and the use of trusses instead would doom the Trade Center to any major catastropic event. That%27s my opinion%2C and I%27ll add that it%27s my opinion that the weight of the building%2C especially the upper sections of the building that were partially severed by impact%2C fire%2C truss and column collapse did not topple%2C and could not topple%2C because of the overall weight of those sections. Weight always wins.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe weight of the partially severed section kept it from toppling%2C and the sudden dramatic impact of the weight of the partially severed section onto steel framing below caused that lower framing to fail. An 18 ounce framing hammer popular to carpenters can only drive a nail when impacted with force upon the nail. That 18 ounce hammer can make more than 18 ounces of force. The partially severed sections of the building generated more sudden downward force than what they weighed.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe weight%2C or dynamic load of the partially severed upper sections of the Trade Center struck the core columns and outer columns with compressive and lateral forces far exceeding their capabilities%2C and the result was column failure and collapse. That weight was just as key to the collapse as was the lack of typical steel redundancy as was the impact as was the fire. %0D%0A%0D%0AIt was sudden dynamic load%2C or you can call it sudden extreme compression%2C or you can call it weight%2C that crushed those lower columns. %0D%0A%0D%0A     %0D%0A%0D%0A|51
65|9|Wind Loads|LARED||12:13:47|02/24/2003|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Feb-24-03 AT 12:15 PM (ET)[/font][p]A lot has been said about winds load and where those loads are distributed. Of course in a structure like the WTC any load is distributed throughout the whole structure to some extent%2C but I think the wind loads were solved in a way that has not been mentioned.  %0D%0A%0D%0AThe spandrels between each outer columns were quite tall and were installed at every floor. The lattice that this creates would be an extremely effective way to stiffen the outer columns against wind loads that ran parallel to an outer wall but were pushing on the wall that is adjacent that wall and perpendicular to the wind. %0D%0A%0D%0AI think if one did an analysis of where the stresses were distributed on a windy day%2C the walls most parallel to the wind took up the most%2C %28in total not necessarily the highest%29  then the perpendicular wall and core %28not in any particular order%29. %0D%0A%0D%0AA question as well. %0D%0A%0D%0AYou stated the core was tied to bedrock %28as have I%29 but I was under the impression that the outer columns as well as the core was ultimately tied to bedrock. Is that true%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DDo right until the stars fall%2C and if they do%2C continue to do right.%5B%2Ffont%5D|64
66|10|Yes%2C ...|DeadBroke||15:49:44|02/24/2003|... the outer wall columns were also down to bedrock. %0D%0A%0D%0AAbout wind%3B Old apprentice notes and experience tells me that wind speed grows with height%2C so wind effects on a building increase as it%27s height increases%2C which creates the need for the rigid core and other wind load framing. %0D%0A%0D%0AIf wind hits the south side of a building the south side framing is in compression%2C and the north side framing is in tension. The south side wind force is pressure%2C and the north side wind force is suction. The sum of those two forces is the total wind force%2C so a true 25 mph wind on the south side has a 50 mph force on the framing. |65
71|11|Some thoughts and questions|plaguepuppy||11:40:41|02/27/2003|You made a comment a while back about my language skills%2C but you%27re no slouch yourself.  I find your descriptions very well-drawn and they have given me a much better sense of these buildings as actual man-made objects rather than abstractions%2C especially as to the difficulties of shimming and aligning to get a true framework.  A question about the core columns%3A were the sections bolted together through end plates the way the perimeter columns were%3F  And were the joints over-welded after bolting%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AAs to the wind loads%2C I think you misspoke - the windward side would be in tension%2C the downwind side and core would be in compression.  In effect the core acts as a fulcrum between the upwind and downwind walls%2C as well as providing some of the lateral rigidity.  Whichever way the wind blows part of the loading will be a compressive force on the core.  %0D%0A%0D%0AI also appreciated your description of the floor truss%2Ffloor system as a unit with considerable strength.  There has been a tendancy to emphasize the individual trusses as fragile structures%2C ignoring the multiplicity and %22eggcrate%22 criss-crossing of the complete unit.  BTW%2C were the tops of the trusses welded to the floor pans%3F  They would seem to be attached%2C and bolting would mean drilling a lot of holes...%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bfont  size%3D1%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Will our children be sacrificial lambs offered up%0D%0Ato ease the fears of multinational corporations%0D%0Alike so many brainwashed media zombies%3F%0D%0APetroleum and its byproducts should not be a dependency%0D%0Ain a technology-based society.  Nothing lasts forever%2C %0D%0Aand we cannot ask God for our gasoline.%22%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dblue%5D%5Blink%3Aimages.indymedia.org%2Fimc%2Fontario%2Frise_robots_rise_-_rise_robots_rise_-_03_-_flowers_and_birds.mp3%7C%22Flowers and Birds%22%5D by %5Bb%5D Rise Robots Rise%5B%2Fb%5D%2C 1991%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Blink%3Awww.daveyd.com%2Fparistrack.mp3%7CParis%3A What Would You Do%3F%5D%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%22In as much as all beings are our kindly parents%2C%0D%0A it would be a cause of regret to have aversion for%0D%0A and thus disown or abandon any of them.%22%0D%0A                                        ---Tantric precept%0D%0A%5Blink%3Ahome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2Fwsb%2Fhtml%2Fview.cgi-home.html-.html%7CPlaguepuppy%27s Homepage%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D|66
72|12|Just a link for all you guys here|Endimion||17:24:19|02/27/2003|It seems that this will be built on Ground Zero. Of course%2C in a bit changed version.%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.msnbc.com%2Fnews%2F877972.asp%3Fcp1%3D1%23BODY%0D%0A%0D%0AI didn%27t want to make a new thread in order to be more economic. Seems that people around here like to create lots of threads.%0D%0AI don%27t like this proposal. Don%27t know why%2C but it seems to me that WTC as it was before %28I am pointing on 2 Towers%2C as a unit%29 is often described as stupid.%0D%0AThere are very little plans that involve 2 big similar structures.%0D%0AAnd I simply can%27t explain why the heck Bloomberg doesn%27t listen to his citizens. More than 2%2F3 of want the Towers back in their original shape%21%0D%0A%0D%0AI saw this picture%2C%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.msnbc.com%2Fmodules%2F91102%2FFutureSite%2Fimages%2Fgraphic7.jpg%0D%0Athat shows 2 towers with no cores %28yes%2C they reversed their direction%2C but no matter%29.%0D%0AI have no idea how could it be built %28too fragile%29%2C but it is a great idea. And I liked some of other proposals.%0D%0AThere is always some kind of a pattern. Like someone is deliberately trying to stop anything that would look like the old WTC.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bb%5DEvil piggies are everywhere...BEWARE%5B%2Fb%5D %5B%2Ffont%5D|71
78|13|Shiver me timber|Endimion||19:12:17|03/04/2003|I think I saw something interesting%21%0D%0A%0D%0AEveryone interested%2C download http%3A%2F%2Fontario.indymedia.org%2Flocal%2Fwebcast%2Fuploads%2Fwtc-2_explodes.avi from Plaguepuppy%27s site %28btw%2C excellent work%2C Pup%29 and carefully observe the last 2 seconds.%0D%0A%0D%0AI think there is a remnant on WTC2%27s core. Yes%2C a spire%21%0D%0AIt reaches maybe 60th floor.%0D%0AI am not reffering to pieces of perimeter walls caving in%3B there is a fat 1x2 foot column pointing up and it stays alive for a couple of seconds.%0D%0A%0D%0AHere is a picture of what sure is the core. That fat column is there%2C too.%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fhereisnewyork.org%2F%2Fjpegs%2Fphotos%2F5712.jpg%0D%0A%0D%0AIt is totally goofy%21%0D%0ACan someone please comment this%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ANo way this structure could dissapear into a mush. It looks sturdy%2C for God sake%21%0D%0A%0D%0APlaguepuppy%3F%0D%0ADulce%3F%0D%0ANitro%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0Aps%3A If I could lay my eyes on the video from which this picture was extracted%21...%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bb%5DEvil piggies are everywhere...BEWARE%5B%2Fb%5D %5B%2Ffont%5D|72
113|14|Excuse me|Endimion||15:51:37|03/19/2003|BUT CAN ANYONE PLEASE COMMENT THIS%3F%3F%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AI find this EXTREMELLY important.%0D%0ALet us not forget that the main topic when talking about WTC are the cores.%0D%0AWell%2C here it is.%0D%0A%0D%0APlease%2C someone should comment this.|78
142|14|Shivering timbers and withering columns|plaguepuppy||03:45:03|03/23/2003|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Mar-23-03 AT 03:59 AM (ET)[/font][p]%0D%0AThere is something interesting going on in that clip%2C and it just might be the same thing that shows up in the still photo.%0D%0A%0D%0AAbout 5 sec. into the clip%2A you begin to see part of the core still standing as the dust settles%2C looks to me like one of those corner built-up box columns that you can see in the construction pictures with cranes perched on top.  %28see fourth picture on this page%3A http%3A%2F%2Fhome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2Fwsb%2Fhtml%2Fview.cgi-photos.html-MerchantID-56016-Publish-t-makestatic-true-skip-15.html%29%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat%27s odd is that the rest of the core falls away first%2C and leaves this built-up sub-column.  Even though it starts toppling as soon as you see it%2C the fact that the rest of the core could crumble away even briefly and leave it intact is remarkable.  Despite all the numerous horizontal bracing pieces connecting it to the rest of the core at every floor this object maintains its own integrity%2C though it was no stronger than the rest of the core.  There%27s no possible way that corner sub-column would not be dragged down instantly in the process of breaking all those ties.  And there%27s no way the rest of the core collapsing under its own weight would generate enough force to break them.%0D%0A%0D%0ANot only does it topple but if you watch closely it turns on its axis as it falls%2C and the narrower part at the top seems to shrivel and curls over.  I%27ve extracted some stills that I%27ll post tomorrow to show what I mean.%0D%0A%0D%0AHere%27s the commentary from my Collapse Update page%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DThe link above is a capture of European broadcast video of the WTC-2%0D%0A                     collapse%2C with the north tower in the foreground but shot from a little east of%0D%0A                     north so you can see quite a bit of the south tower. At the start of the collapse%0D%0A                     the south tower begins to lean to the south%2C away from us in this view%2C so there%0D%0A                     should be no significant compression %28and possibly some traction%2C if the core%0D%0A                     has any resistance%29 on the side closest to us. This means that there is no way%0D%0A                     from the action of gravity to generate the high pressures it would take to%0D%0A                     pulverize and eject material in the manner seen. Instead of the kind of slow start%0D%0A                     we would expect near the beginning of a gravitational collapse we see high%0D%0A                     speed %93demolition waves%94 coming directly toward us%2C with another set shooting%0D%0A                     out to the left%2C from the east side of the building. These are exactly the sort of%0D%0A                     confluent rows of small explosions that are so characteristic of a controlled%0D%0A                     demolition%2C and can be seen emerging in flat rings extending all the way around%0D%0A                     the tower and propagating rapidly downward. %0D%0A                       %5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%2A %5Blink%3Aontario.indymedia.org%2Flocal%2Fwebcast%2Fuploads%2Fwtc-2_explodes.avi%7Cwtc-2_explodes%5D|78
146|15|Sharp eyes are neccessary when investigating WTC demolition|Endimion||14:42:01|03/23/2003|I always try to shut up part of me that is saying%3A %22That is a true explosive demolition%21 WOW%21%22%2C cause being skeptic in everything is a good way to get to the truth. Of course%2C one must never go to far.%0D%0ASo I try to look at it as a simple collapse%2C but I simply can not continue%2C cause I see too much BS.%0D%0AThe movie you mentioned is an extract from clip called ras.avi%2C and it is easy to find it on the internet. I watched the very beginning of it%2C but there is just a glimpse of what the photo I posted shows.%0D%0AMy photo shows something that looks rather solid%2C but the detaching you mentioned made it %22dissapear%22. I can%27t understand one thing. Those columns were VERY strong. Everyone saw how %22the spire%22 waved before imploding. The top was one column%2C %7E120 m tall. And that 1x3 foot piece of steel was waveing%2C prooving us that it is very flexible.%0D%0ABut then again%2C there were only 4-5 core columns on Ground Zero. Everything else was chopped. If the lateral connections %5Bb%5Dwere%5B%2Fb%5D so fragile like some posters here think %28and they %5Bb%5Dweren%27t%5B%2Fb%5D at all%21%29%2C why the heck those columns simply didn%27t fall around like sticks in that Chinese game%2C Mikado%3F%3F%3F%0D%0AI seriously think that at least the core should stay vertically. Of course%2C damaged%2C but vertical.%0D%0AAt least until a strong wind starts blowing. Then it would probably sway so much that it would topple to a side%2C or brake into 2%2Fmore pieces%2C causing many damages and casualties.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DAbout 5 sec. into the clip%2A you begin to see part of the core still standing as the dust settles%2C looks to me like one of those corner built-up box columns that you can see in the construction pictures with cranes perched on top.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AThat is not a column. That%27s towers corner. Place where people used to place their chin and stare at the top.%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fhereisnewyork.org%2F%2Fjpegs%2Fphotos%2F2730.jpgX  %28remove the X for viewing%29%0D%0A%28BTW%2C isn%27t it a bit odd that this flimsy part stayed up too long%3F%29%0D%0A%0D%0AThe core from my picture is I guess obscured on European video%2C and seems to disolve in 1-2 seconds%2C and after that we see just a bit of it%2C imploding right down.%0D%0A%0D%0AThis might be part of big corner core column.%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fhereisnewyork.org%2F%2Fjpegs%2Fphotos%2F5568.jpgX%0D%0AThat big cloud %28that seems to come from the towers base%29 is visible%2C too.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe collapse actually starts from the bottom %28basement%2C I guess%29 and then we see explosive decay of the top.%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fhereisnewyork.org%2F%2Fjpegs%2Fphotos%2F2402.jpgX%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fhereisnewyork.org%2F%2Fjpegs%2Fphotos%2F5711.jpgX%0D%0A%0D%0AThis is not normal behaviour of highly connected steel structure. I can accept 30-40 destroyed parts of floors%2C but this%3F%21%3F%0D%0ANO.%0D%0A%0D%0AI ask Lared to join this subthread. You know what they always say%2C you have to ask it in%2C so it could enter.%0D%0A%7D%3E%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0Ap.s.%3A We should start commenting plane impacts%3B anomalies on WTC1 during WTC2 being hit.|142
73|12|Thank you ...|DeadBroke||17:39:37|02/27/2003|.... I appreciate your kind comments. The core columns that I was able to see during two renovations %28winter 80 %26 81 on the Windows To The World and spring 91 on the Port Authority Contract Library%29 were typical T and L fixed connection columns with common X cross bracings for lateral stability. Fixed connection columns have lugs or clips welded onto them back at the shop or manufacturing plant in predetermined locations that will match the beam and or truss connections. T columns are in the middle of a run of columns and with matching lugs on each side up top so they look like the letter T. L columns are the corner columns at the end of the run with the lugs at 90 degree angles. If there%27s more than two lugs on top%2C it%27s called a tree column because the lugs resemble branches. The cross bracing was made of much lighter material. After bolted to torque with a hearing-destroying air wrench called a yo-yo certified welders run several passes of beads with seventy thousand pound test rods%2C or spooled wire%2C usually with an inert shieding gas always%2C always allowing for cooling periods%2C called interpasses%2C inbetween passes. If a consumable electrode%2C or rod is used the slag is also chipped and cleaned in between passes. We%27ll make a few passes on one column%2C switch to the other side%2C then go to a different column%2C do the same%2C and then go back to the first. Every effort is made not to overheat the columns and beams. It%27s a lot of jumping around but that%27s the job.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ve spoken to welders that were on the Trade Center and they told me that the inspectors%2C despite having to monitor an army of welders%2C were very diligent watching interpass times and pass sequences. Since welding creates extreme heat beyond the melting point of steel and since steel will accumulate and convect that heat caution is required in order to prevent lamination stress. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe decking was welded to the tops of the trusses in the traditional manner with studs. After being shook out%2C a term for positioning the sheets with proper overlapping and etc%2C an apprentice will carry and drop one Nelson Stud every 18 inches or so. A welder follows with a stud gun. He picks up the stud%2C a five or six inch steel rod about one and one quarter inches in diameter%2C and sticks it into the tip of the gun%2C the size of a jackhammer%2C and then places a ceramic cap over it. He presses the stud onto the decking%2C which has a line-up guide stamped into it at the factory - or follows a chalk line snapped by a layout foreman%2C and pulls the trigger. The stud acts as an electrode and burns through the decking and into the truss. The stud gun clicks at the end of the weld cycle%2C and he moves onto the next stud leaving behind a short post that has made the decking stud and truss all one piece. The reinforcing rods%2C rebar%2C or mesh is the next step and they will be tied to those studs. %0D%0A%0D%0AAccording to welders I%27ve spoken with%2C welding the trusses was a very unusually time consuming process. There were a lot of trusses%2C and the welders had to hop around from line to line in order to prevent overheating the top chord of the trusses.%0D%0A%0D%0AWelding processes change%2C and it%27s my opinion that if the Trade Center were built today all welding would be done with inert shielding gasses using cooler arc temperatures%2C and totally eliminating the intoduction of hydrogen into the welds.%0D%0A%0D%0AWelders now-a-days use crayons called Tempsticks. They%27re colored and waxlike%2C only melting at specific temperatures. Some decking comes with dots of it already applied %28brand name Tempilstik%29. If it melts welders will know if they%27re overheating the decking and truss below and switch to another area. Using that colored crayon to avoid overheating the HAZ %28Heat Affected Zone%29 during several welding passes isn%27t yet mandatory but probably will be soon.|71
74|13|Open mouth %2C insert foot. |DeadBroke||10:02:42|02/28/2003|I got yelled at down in the Union Hall this morning for my description of the truss-decking connections%2C but it was worth it and good to learn these threads are being read. One of the very few ironworkers still active from the Trade Center job reprimanded me because some of the trusses and decking came preassembled with mechanical nut and bolt fasteners and studs from the manufacturer. Their size%2C or width and number of trusses was limited by the trailers that delivered them. %0D%0A%0D%0AAs a side note I should add that most tradesmen employed in that era have since retired or passed away. A serious decline in new construction hit NYC after the Trade Center and many were compelled into other lines of work. It didn%27t pick up again until the 80s. The talents of those that were forced to leave the trade and that of those that have since retired has never been replaced. The trade has changed dramatically from dedicated true tradesmen able to do anything and everything and seeking challenges to workers with much more limited skill. My apprentice years for example were a wealth of brand new knowledge while today%27s era is remedial.   |73
87|13|Useful information and a reliable source IMHO|shatoga||20:41:30|03/05/2003|%0D%0AAs a Certified welder%2C I can add that welders also run a bead on one side%2C then go to the opposite side to even out the warping of metal due to heat stresses.%0D%0A%0D%0ABoth ASME and AWS certified welders working at the WTC construction.%0D%0A%0D%0AA welder can use %22stick%22 rod and make a perfect weld with no hydrogen inclusion. %28certification testing guarentees that ability%29%0D%0A%0D%0AUse of spool fed or TIG%2C flux core or inert gas welding would not even be necessary to insure sufficient quality and integrity of welds.%0D%0APassing a welder%27s test includes proof of ability to exclude hydrogen from the weld.%0D%0AAs deadbroke points out%2C the weld is cleaned between passes.%0D%0A%0D%0AMore gifted welders %0D%0A%28some of us merely wait for the slag to flake off by itself and brush our welds clean%2F but that requires considerable training and experience%29%0D%0ATemp sticks have been in use since at least 1972 %28in my own experience%29 In NYC%2C metals can be too cold to weld and must be pre-heated before welding.%0D%0A%0D%0AThose %27Nelson studs%27 are machine controlled %22spot welds%22 which have uniformity beyond that of even the most gifted welder.%0D%0A%28given the correct conditions%2C temperature%2C contact%2C etc.%0D%0A%0D%0ADeadbroke shows considerable inside knowledge of the WTC construction methods %28with a few gaps on specifics%29 and IMHO generally is a reliable source.%0D%0A%0D%0AOne must be conversant with trade specific knowledge to find fault with deadbroke%27s comments.%0D%0A%0D%0APicky details in most cases.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fduforum%2FDCForumID12%2F2935.html%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2990%26forum%3DDCForumID12%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2926%26forum%3DDCForumID12%5B%2Ffont%5D|73
108|14|Thanks to DeadBroke and Shatoga|plaguepuppy||13:15:25|03/19/2003|I%27ve been away on vacation%2C and then catching up at the office so I haven%27t had the time to keep up with the forums.  The details about construction of the floors and columns are very interesting.  It really does sound like the whole unit of decking and trusses would be extremely strong though light%2C almost like airplane construction.  It should have been able to act as a very strong diaphragn transmitting lateral forces to the core.%0D%0A%0D%0AIs the reason for avoiding too much heat to the weld areas just to avoid lamination stress in the welds themselves%2C or is there a danger of weakening or de-tempering the steel%3F  Also curious about the butt joints in the core columns.  Are they bolted together through end plates and over-welded like the perimeter columns%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m still not clear on how that %22pneumatic hammer%22 thing creates a weld%3A does it fire a stud into the decking and at the same time create a current through it so that it welds itself in place%3F  Does it go through the top of the truss too%2C or does it just penetrate the decking and weld itself to the top of the truss%3F  Sounds like a cool gadget anyway. I got to play with a stud gun trying to shoot bolt anchors into concrete in one of my part time jobs as an undergrad at MIT.  We were trying to hang a balcony in a 2-story lab in the Ocean Engineering Dept.%2C in the original 1910 era main buildings on Mass Ave%2C and the concrete was incredibly hard.  The best we could do was knock little divots of concrete off the surface%2C finally had to use %28a lot of%29 abrasive drills.  Guess the stuff just keeps curing...%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22Will our children be sacrificial lambs offered up%0D%0Ato ease the fears of multinational corporations%0D%0Alike so many brainwashed media zombies%3F%0D%0APetroleum and its byproducts should not be a dependency%0D%0Ain a technology-based society.  Nothing lasts forever%2C %0D%0Aand we cannot ask God for our gasoline.%22%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dblue%5D%5Blink%3Aimages.indymedia.org%2Fimc%2Fontario%2Frise_robots_rise_-_rise_robots_rise_-_03_-_flowers_and_birds.mp3%7C%22Flowers and Birds%22%5D by %5Bb%5D Rise Robots Rise%5B%2Fb%5D%2C 1991%0D%0A%5Blink%3Aimages.indymedia.org%2Fimc%2Fontario%2Frise_robots_rise_-_1991_promo_disk_-_04_-_flowers_and_birds_ii-jtdaml.mp3%7CFlowers %26 Birds II%3A The Return%5D%0D%0A%5Blink%3Awww.daveyd.com%2Fparistrack.mp3%7CParis%3A What Would You Do%3F%5D%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%22In as much as all beings are our kindly parents%2C%0D%0A it would be a cause of regret to have aversion for%0D%0A and thus disown or abandon any of them.%22%0D%0A                                        ---Tantric precept%0D%0A%5Blink%3Ahome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2Fwsb%2Fhtml%2Fview.cgi-home.html-.html%7CPlaguepuppy%27s Homepage%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A|87
112|15|on concrete %26 stud %28spot%29 welding|shatoga||14:24:57|03/19/2003|Posted by plaguepuppy%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E I got to play with a stud gun trying to shoot bolt anchors into concrete in one of my part time jobs as an undergrad at MIT. We were trying to hang a balcony in a 2-story lab in the Ocean Engineering Dept.%2C in the original 1910 era main buildings on Mass Ave%2C and the concrete was incredibly hard. The best we could do was knock little divots of concrete off the surface%2C finally had to use %28a lot of%29 abrasive drills. Guess the stuff just keeps curing...%0D%0A%0D%0A%3C%0D%0A%0D%0AConcrete keeps curing as long is moisture is present.%0D%0A%0D%0AWe have concrete from Roman times%2C so there is a 2000 year history of concrete construction.%0D%0A%0D%0ARe stud welding.%0D%0ASpot-welds are more uniform than any human can ever be.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe %22hilti-gun you used is different in that it uses an explosive force %28only%29 to drive a stud into materials.%0D%0AIt can %28with a brown load%29 drive studs into a steel beam or column.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A|108
100|12|Here%27s something interesting|Endimion||15:10:33|03/08/2003|Dykon Blasting have many videos%2C but here is a treat.%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.dykon-blasting.com%2FArchives%2FBucaneer%2FBuccaneer.asf%0D%0ALook how load bearing columns are being cut. Just as seen in WTC.%0D%0AAnd look how the upper part of this 12-story building falls on itself and stops moving cause of resist of concrete. No doubt that steel would act better.%0D%0AThere%27s just one problem. This asf video won%27t work properly on WMP9. I%27d like to convert it into MPEG%2C but don%27t have a clue where could I get the appropriate program.%0D%0AI have found that the movie plays great on Windows Movie Maker %28XP users%29.%0D%0A%0D%0Apeace%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bb%5DEvil piggies are everywhere...BEWARE%5B%2Fb%5D %5B%2Ffont%5D|71
141|13|Try this for format conversion|plaguepuppy||01:35:24|03/23/2003|EO Video%3A%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.eo-video.com%2Fdownload%2FDownload.htm|100
93|1|Chief Palmer could see only two pockets of fire|shatoga||15:22:15|03/06/2003|%3EThe temperature of fire in the WTC%3F%3C%0D%0A%0D%0ADecember 25%2C 2001%3A %0D%0A%0D%0AThe New York Times reports that %5Bb%5D%22some of the nation%27s leading structural engineers and fire-safety experts%22 believe the investigation into the collapse of the WTC is %22inadequate%22%2C%5B%2Fb%5D and %0D%0A%22are calling for a new%2C independent and better-financed inquiry that could produce the kinds of conclusions vital for skyscrapers and future buildings nationwide.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DExperts critical of the investigation include %22some of those people who are actually conducting it.%22%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A They point out that the current team of 20 or so investigators has no subpoena power%2C inadequate financial support%2C little staff support%2C has been prevented from interviewing witnesses and frequently prevented from examining the disaster site%2C and has even been unable to obtain basic information like detailed blueprints of the buildings that collapsed. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DThe decision to rapidly recycle the steel columns%2C beams and trusses from the WTC in the days immediately after 9%2F11 means definitive answers may never be known.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%7Binsert ME%3A willful destruction of evidence constitutes Obstruction of Justice%2F all by itself%3B proof of a coverup%29 %0D%0A%0D%0ANew York Times%2C 12%2F25%2F01 %0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2001%2F12%2F25%2Fnyregion%2F25TOWE.html%0D%0A%0D%0A %28Incredibly%2C some of the steel is being reforged into commemorative medallions selling for %2430 apiece%29 %5BAP%2C 1%2F30%2F02 %0D%0A%0D%0A2002%2Fap013002.html%0D%0AJanuary 4%2C 2002%3A A %5Bb%5Dfirefighter trade magazine with ties to the New York Fire Department calls the investigation into the collapse of the WTC a %22half-baked farce.%22%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A The article points out that the probe has not looked at all aspects of the disaster and has had limited access to documents and other evidence. %0D%0A%22The %5Bb%5D%5Bi%5Ddestruction and removal of evidence%5B%2Fi%5D%5B%2Fb%5D must stop immediately.%22 %0D%0AIt concludes that %5Bb%5Da growing number of fire protection engineers have theorized that %5Bi%5D%22the structural damage from the planes and the explosive ignition of jet fuel in themselves were not enough to bring down the towers.%22%5B%2Fi%5D%5B%2Fb%5D %0D%0ANew York Daily News%2C 1%2F4%2F02 %3C%0D%0A2002%2Fnydailynews010402.html %0D%0A%0D%0AFire Engineering%2C 1%2F02 %3C%0D%0A2002%2Ffireengineering0102.html%0D%0AFebruary 10%2C 2002%3A Katherine Smith is killed one day before he scheduled appearance in court on charges she helped five Muslim terrorists get illegal drivers licenses. Her car supposedly hit a tree and then caught on fire. %0D%0A%5Bi%5DThe FBI later determined that gasoline was poured on her clothing before she died in the fire.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A A suicide note was found%2C but prosecutors say they are looking for murder suspects. %5Bb%5DOne of the five Muslims%2C Sakhera Hammad%2C was found with a pass for the WTC%2C dated September 5%2C 2001%2C in his wallet. Hammad claims he was a plumber and worked on the WTC%27s sprinkler system that day%5B%2Fb%5D %28see September 5%2C 2001 %3Ctimelinethru2000.htm%0D%0A%0D%0A%7Binsert by ME%3A Plumbers are not qualified to work on %28Fire%29Sprinkler systems%2F the Fire codes NFPA-13 are different than Plumbing codes%7D%0D%0A%0D%0A Smith was being investigated by the FBI%3B the five later plead guilty to charges of fraud. %5BAP%2C 2%2F13%2F02 %0D%0A2002%2Fap021302.html%0D%0A%0D%0A Reuters%2C 2%2F15%2F02 http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2002%2F02%2F15%2Fnational%2F15LICE.html%0D%0A%0D%0A Go Memphis%2C 2%2F12%2F02 %3C%0D%0A2002%2Fgomemphis021202.html%0D%0A%0D%0A Memphis Commercial Appeal%2C 2%2F21%2F02 %3C%0D%0A2002%2Fcommericialappeal052102.html%0D%0A%0D%0A%28Anomaly of conspiracy to coverup WTC-7%29%0D%0A%0D%0AMarch 2%2C 2002%3A A New York Times article theorizes that a diesel fuel tank was responsible for the collapse of Building 7 near the WTC. It collapsed on 9%2F11 even though it was farther away than many other buildings that remained standing. It was the first time a steel-reinforced high-rise in the US had ever collapsed in a fire. The fuel tank had been installed in 1999 as part of a new %22command center%22 for Mayor Rudolph Giuliani. New York Times%2C 3%2F2%2F02 http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2002%2F03%2F02%2Fnyregion%2F02TOWE.html%0D%0A Dow Jones News%2C 9%2F10%2F02 %3C%0D%0A2002%2Fdowjones091002.html%0D%0A What%27s curious%2C especially given all the Wall Street scandals later in the year%2C is that Building 7 was where the SEC was storing files related to numerous Wall Street investigations. All the files for approximately 3%2C000 to 4%2C000 SEC cases were destroyed. Some were backed up in other places%2C but many were not%2C especially those classified as confidential. %5BNational Law Journal%2C 9%2F17%2F01 %3C%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.nylawyer.com%2Fnews%2F01%2F09%2F091701e.html%0D%0ALost files include documents that could show the relationship between Citigroup and the WorldCom bankruptcy. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe Street%2C 8%2F9%2F02 http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thestreet.com%2Fmarkets%2Fmatthewgoldstein%2F10036925.html%0D%0A The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission estimates over 10%2C000 cases will be affected. %0D%0ANew York Law Journal%2C 9%2F14%2F01 %3C%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.nylawyer.com%2Fnews%2F01%2F09%2F091401b.html%0D%0A%0D%0A The Secret Service also lost investigative files. %0D%0A%0D%0ASays one agent%3A %22All the evidence that we stored at 7 World Trade%2C in all our cases%2C went down with the building.%22 %0D%0ATech TV%2C 7%2F23%2F02 %3C%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.techtv.com%2Fcybercrime%2Ffeatures%2Fstory%2F0%2C23008%2C3378780%2C00.html%0D%0A%0D%0A A few days later%2C %5Bb%5Dthe head of the WTC collapse investigation says he %22would possibly consider examining%22 the collapse of Building 7 %5Bi%5D%28however%2C all the rubble has been removed and destroyed%29.%5B%2Fi%5D%5B%2Fb%5D %0D%0ACommittee on Science%2C House of Representatives testimony%2C 3%2F6%2F02 %3C%0D%0A%0D%0A2002%2Fnist030602.html%0D%0A%0D%0AMay 1%2C 2002 %0D%0A%28B%29%3A FEMA releases its report of the WTC collapses. It concludes%2C %22with the information and time available%2C the sequence of events leading to the collapse of each tower could not be definitively determined.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DOn Building 7%3A %22The specifics of the fires in WTC 7 and how they caused the building to collapse remain unknown at this time.%22 %5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0AFEMA study%2C 5%2F1%2F02 %3C%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.fema.gov%2Flibrary%2Fwtcstudy.shtm %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DMight their failure to come to conclusions have something to do with the fact that they destroyed the evidence before it could be analyzed%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A----What are they hiding%3F---%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0AJuly 23%2C 2002%3A The New York City government decides that the audio and written records of the Fire Department%27s actions on 9%2F11 should never be released to the general public. %0D%0AThe New York Times has been trying to get copies of the materials%2C which include firsthand accounts given to Fire Department officials by scores of firefighters and chiefs. The city claims the firefighters were told their accounts would be kept confidential%2C but senior fire officials say they were never told that their remarks would be kept confidential. %0D%0ANew York Times%2C 7%2F23%2F02 http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2002%2F07%2F23%2Fnyregion%2F23SECR.html%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DHere is what they%27re hiding %28in part%29%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AAugust 4%2C 2002%3A A %22lost tape%22 of radio messages from firefighters inside the WTC on 9%2F11 is made public. %0D%0A%0D%0ASupposedly%2C %22city fire officials simply delayed listening%22 to this tape until after the official report on the fire department%27s response to the attacks was published%2C and they still refuse to allow any officials to discuss the contents. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DThe tape reveals that two firefighters were able to reach the crash site on the 78th floor of the South Tower. While there%2C %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Chief Palmer could see only two pockets of fire%2C and called for a pair of engine companies to fight them.%22%5B%2Fb%5D %0D%0ANew York Times%2C 8%2F4%2F02 http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2002%2F08%2F04%2Fnyregion%2F04WTC.html%2C Guardian%2C 8%2F5%2F02 http%3A%2F%2Fwww.guardian.co.uk%2Fseptember11%2Fstory%2F0%2C11209%2C769307%2C00.html%0D%0A Though the New York Times doesn%27t mention it%2C %5Bb%5Dthese small%2C containable fires contradict the official explanation that the tower collapsed because of a raging inferno that melted the steel support columns holding up the building.%5B%2Fb%5D %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fduforum%2FDCForumID12%2F2935.html%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2990%26forum%3DDCForumID12%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2926%26forum%3DDCForumID12%5B%2Ffont%5D|0
101|2|Chilling on the 78th floor|plaguepuppy||04:15:49|03/17/2003|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Mar-17-03 AT 04:26 AM (ET)[/font][p]Yes%2C those FD tapes present a very interesting picture of conditions on the 78th floor - people alive%2C some injured%2C but only two confined areas of fire.  And this is only minutes before and 10s of feet below the point where the entire core is supposed to have softened so much from heating that it began to topple.  Only if all 47 columns of the core were heated to well over 1400%B0F could it suddenly tip as a unit the way it did%2C and perimeter columns would have had to be weakened as well.  Enough heat would have been conducted through the core to make the 78th floor a several-hundred degree oven.%0D%0A%0D%0ASince you mention WTC-7%2C my favorite anomaly in the whole WTC story is the fact that fires raged in a very localized pattern in trade-7%2C selectively hitting all of floors 11-13 where the SEC records were%2C and a few other isolated floors. %0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fhome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2Fsec_burns.jpg%0D%0A%0D%0A Reading the section of the FEMA report on the WTC-7 collapse  %28http%3A%2F%2Fwww.house.gov%2Fscience%2Fhot%2Fwtc%2Fwtc-report%2FWTC_ch5.pdf %29 is an odd experience - they admit that they know almost nothing%2C not even how much if any diesel fuel was unaccounted for %28most of it was still in underground tanks%29.  How or whether pipes were breached%2C whether emergency generators even turned on and began pumping fuel through the pipes%2C what the source of ignition might have been%2C none of it is known.  Even the most basic investigative things like asking firemen who were in the building during the afternoon about what was burning and where doesn%27t seem to have been done.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd what%27s up with putting an Office of Emergency Management command center on the 23rd floor - were they expecting a tsunami%3F  The middle of a 47 story building seems like an especially bad place to put a hardened bunker for just about any other kind of disaster.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22Will our children be sacrificial lambs offered up%0D%0Ato ease the fears of multinational corporations%0D%0Alike so many brainwashed media zombies%3F%0D%0APetroleum and its byproducts should not be a dependency%0D%0Ain a technology-based society.  Nothing lasts forever%2C %0D%0Aand we cannot ask God for our gasoline.%22%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dblue%5D%5Blink%3Aimages.indymedia.org%2Fimc%2Fontario%2Frise_robots_rise_-_rise_robots_rise_-_03_-_flowers_and_birds.mp3%7C%22Flowers and Birds%22%5D by %5Bb%5D Rise Robots Rise%5B%2Fb%5D%2C 1991%0D%0A%5Blink%3Aimages.indymedia.org%2Fimc%2Fontario%2Frise_robots_rise_-_1991_promo_disk_-_04_-_flowers_and_birds_ii-jtdaml.mp3%7CFlowers %26 Birds II%3A The Return%5D%0D%0A%5Blink%3Awww.daveyd.com%2Fparistrack.mp3%7CParis%3A What Would You Do%3F%5D%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%22In as much as all beings are our kindly parents%2C%0D%0A it would be a cause of regret to have aversion for%0D%0A and thus disown or abandon any of them.%22%0D%0A                                        ---Tantric precept%0D%0A%5Blink%3Ahome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2Fwsb%2Fhtml%2Fview.cgi-home.html-.html%7CPlaguepuppy%27s Homepage%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D|93
102|2|I always love how |LARED||05:50:30|03/17/2003|the true believer needs to embellish that facts to make them sound more believable%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DThough the New York Times doesn%27t mention it%2C these small%2C containable fires contradict the official explanation that the tower collapsed because of a raging inferno that melted the steel support columns holding up the building. %5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat the NYT%27s link says%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DAt that point%2C the building would be standing for just a few more minutes%2C as the fire was weakening the structure on the floors above him. Even so%2C Chief Palmer could see only two pockets of fire%2C and called for a pair of engine companies to fight them. %5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0ANotice the article say nothing about the fires on the 78th floor being small or containable. It does speak of fires above the 78th floor. Also the %22offical story%22 does not say the steel melted.  %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DDo right until the stars fall%2C and if they do%2C continue to do right.%5B%2Ffont%5D|93
103|3|Glad you love something dude|plaguepuppy||07:27:08|03/17/2003|As WC Fields said%3A %22Everybody has to believe in something - I believe I%27ll have another drink.%22  I%27ve been called a lot of things%2C but %22believer%22 is one of the least deserved.%0D%0A%0D%0AActually I was basing my comment on the actual transcript of the tape%2C not the NYT%27s description%2C which assumes something that the FEMA report does not attempt to prove%2C and that the NIST study does not take as proven.  So which account is embellished%3F %0D%0A%5Bi%5D%22At that point%2C the building would be standing for just a few more minutes%2C as the fire was weakening the structure on%0D%0A      the floors above him. Even so...%22%0D%0A%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0ASounds a little different from%3A %5B%2F%5D%22Chief Palmer could see only two pockets of fire%2C and called for a pair of engine%0D%0A      companies to fight them.%22%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A  But yes%2C there were in fact two small pockets of fire%2C and conditions not incompatible with life %28and he actually called for 2 hoses%2C not 2 engine companies%29 in a part of the tower 15 or 20 feet below where the building is claimed to have been heated to the softening point.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd asked too to believe that burning office furniture fed with air almost entirely from the edges could have heated the entire cross-section of the core at one level to the softening point%2C despite the core columns acting as huge heat sinks to carry energy away.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22Will our children be sacrificial lambs offered up%0D%0Ato ease the fears of multinational corporations%0D%0Alike so many brainwashed media zombies%3F%0D%0APetroleum and its byproducts should not be a dependency%0D%0Ain a technology-based society.  Nothing lasts forever%2C %0D%0Aand we cannot ask God for our gasoline.%22%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dblue%5D%5Blink%3Aimages.indymedia.org%2Fimc%2Fontario%2Frise_robots_rise_-_rise_robots_rise_-_03_-_flowers_and_birds.mp3%7C%22Flowers and Birds%22%5D by %5Bb%5D Rise Robots Rise%5B%2Fb%5D%2C 1991%0D%0A%5Blink%3Aimages.indymedia.org%2Fimc%2Fontario%2Frise_robots_rise_-_1991_promo_disk_-_04_-_flowers_and_birds_ii-jtdaml.mp3%7CFlowers %26 Birds II%3A The Return%5D%0D%0A%5Blink%3Awww.daveyd.com%2Fparistrack.mp3%7CParis%3A What Would You Do%3F%5D%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%22In as much as all beings are our kindly parents%2C%0D%0A it would be a cause of regret to have aversion for%0D%0A and thus disown or abandon any of them.%22%0D%0A                                        ---Tantric precept%0D%0A%5Blink%3Ahome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2Fwsb%2Fhtml%2Fview.cgi-home.html-.html%7CPlaguepuppy%27s Homepage%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D|102
106|3|Your taste|Endimion||15:41:40|03/17/2003|is something that%27s not the subject right now.%0D%0ABut%2C as you really ADORE to jump with conclutions and serve as an instant replying machine%2C maybe you should check what I posted couple of days ago.%0D%0ALet me remind you%2C %22Shiver me timber%22 post.%0D%0AMaybe I%27m wrong%2C but you seem to fail in your godlike task%2C maybe you indeed FORGOT %28OH%2C MY%2C it is so FRIGGIN TERRIBLE%21%21%21 %3Ao %3Ao %3Ao %29 to chech every damn post here.%0D%0A%0D%0AYou should really think about what Pup wrote. At least try to imagine how the heck can a core 2-3 floors above be so much heated to fail%2C and the firemen is reporting live people. 78th floor should be totally unaccesible%21%0D%0AImagine a stairway 2-3 floors below raging fire. How the heck could firemen climb up there%3F%3F Smoke%2C heat%2C hell.%0D%0APlus the core was apparently %28not a clue who said it%29 all blasted.%0D%0A%0D%0AThose NY firemen must have been made of wolfram. Maybe we should ask DeadBroke if he has ever eaten asbestos pills as a child%3F%0D%0AAnd those brave%2C silicon%2C fireproofed office workers%21...%0D%0AMan they were a hard nut%21 WOW%21%0D%0AIf they were accessible in Croatia%2C I%27d buy one at once.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AJust a hint%2C that%27s all.%0D%0ADon%27t feel x%28 .%0D%0A%0D%0AHave some %3Adonut%3A ........ and enjoy replying.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bb%5DEvil piggies are everywhere...BEWARE%5B%2Fb%5D %5B%2Ffont%5D|102
107|4|Your taste%2F my personal experience|shatoga||18:02:31|03/17/2003|A construction job at a high school.%0D%0A%0D%0AAn iron worker using an oxygen acetylene torch cut over the bottles feeding his rig.%0D%0A%0D%0ASlag dropped onto the line and set fire to the acetylene bottle.%0D%0A%0D%0AFiremen responding said %27When the heat touches off that oxygen bottle this gym is gone.%22%0D%0A%0D%0ATwo of us volunteered.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe firemen sprayed water to cool the bottles as we took turns turning the valve on the acetylene bottle to shut it off.%0D%0AOur leather %28gauntlet%29 welding gloves shrunk from the heat as we shut down the valve and stopped the disaster the firemen would have drawn back and let happen.%0D%0A%0D%0ATell me all you want%2C some fairy tale.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ve been there %22in the fire%22 as professionals cowered many yards away%2C as I and one other citizen did the dangerous necessary work to save lives and the building.%0D%0A%0D%0AI respect any post which disagrees with me%2C and presents evidence to the contrary.%0D%0AI question any post which seeks to stop honest debate%2C and prevent presentation of all available evidence.%0D%0A%0D%0AEspecially those which seek to distract honest discussion with insults and strawman diversions.%0D%0A%0D%0AI question their motives%2C without any accusation.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhy would one post at a Democratic Forum in support of the Bush version of all events%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ANo accusations. Just an honest question.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fduforum%2FDCForumID12%2F2935.html%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2990%26forum%3DDCForumID12%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2926%26forum%3DDCForumID12%5B%2Ffont%5D|106
109|5|About those self-styled debunkers|plaguepuppy||13:29:22|03/19/2003|What I find interesting about certain posters %28not naming any names%2C but if the shoe fits...%29 is that they are blistering in their attacks on what they disparage as %22CT%22%2C but when pushed for their %22alternative model%22 they wind up supporting the official Bushspeak version of the events of 9-11 in every detail.  It seems laughable to pose as a model of moral and intellectual courage for supporting the exact %28contradiction-filled%2C wildly implausible%29 version of events being promoted by the biggest propaganda%2Fpsy-op campaign in the history of the world%2C and pouring out of every media outlet 24-7.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22Will our children be sacrificial lambs offered up%0D%0Ato ease the fears of multinational corporations%0D%0Alike so many brainwashed media zombies%3F%0D%0APetroleum and its byproducts should not be a dependency%0D%0Ain a technology-based society.  Nothing lasts forever%2C %0D%0Aand we cannot ask God for our gasoline.%22%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dblue%5D%5Blink%3Aimages.indymedia.org%2Fimc%2Fontario%2Frise_robots_rise_-_rise_robots_rise_-_03_-_flowers_and_birds.mp3%7C%22Flowers and Birds%22%5D by %5Bb%5D Rise Robots Rise%5B%2Fb%5D%2C 1991%0D%0A%5Blink%3Aimages.indymedia.org%2Fimc%2Fontario%2Frise_robots_rise_-_1991_promo_disk_-_04_-_flowers_and_birds_ii-jtdaml.mp3%7CFlowers %26 Birds II%3A The Return%5D%0D%0A%5Blink%3Awww.daveyd.com%2Fparistrack.mp3%7CParis%3A What Would You Do%3F%5D%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%22In as much as all beings are our kindly parents%2C%0D%0A it would be a cause of regret to have aversion for%0D%0A and thus disown or abandon any of them.%22%0D%0A                                        ---Tantric precept%0D%0A%5Blink%3Ahome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2Fwsb%2Fhtml%2Fview.cgi-home.html-.html%7CPlaguepuppy%27s Homepage%5D|107
110|6|About certain cowardly and weasely accusers|acerbic||13:51:31|03/19/2003|%5Bi%5DWhat I find interesting about certain posters %28not naming any names%2C but if the shoe fits...%29 is that they are blistering in their attacks on what they disparage as %22CT%22%2C but when pushed for their %22alternative model%22 they wind up supporting the official Bushspeak version of the events of 9-11 in every detail.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AI don%27t remember anyone except some disruptors with a dozen posts support the official Bushspeak version of 9-11 in every detail. I think you%27re just lying and I%27m not afraid to say it straight.|109
116|7|Question%2C and informations|Endimion||16:41:26|03/19/2003|Should it be appropriate to create a thread dealing with SARS%3F%0D%0AI am suddenly interested cause this virus that appeared in my city%2C too.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ve heard on news that there is only 2.5 hours for Saddam to surrender. Man%2C that idiot is stupid. Wasting country%27s money%2C getting people into dangerous position...%0D%0ADid anyone saw Baghdad recently on TV%3F%0D%0AFew Croatian reporters went there to report us about the war. Wow was that a suprise or what%3F%3F%0D%0APictures everywhere....Saddam picking flowers%2C Saddam playing with children%2C Saddam walking with soldiers%2C Saddam drinking coffe%2C....Saddam here%2C Saddam there%2C..........brrrr.....%0D%0AAnd Bush... I can%27t express my fear when it comes to him. That idiot is going to be a new Hitler.%0D%0A2 MORONS matching in %22Who has a bigger wheener%22 contest.%0D%0A%0D%0APeople of Croatia %28and Europe%29 will leave all of their houses lights on for 2 hours %2810 PM - 12 PM%29 to make a satellite picture of %22shining world in prairs%22.%0D%0AWe are asked not to buy American products%2C and to light a candle tonight. And to prair for peace. I seriously doubt it will help. Bush is a monster and he won%27t stop just cause whole Europe %28and world%29 is overloading their electrics and burning wax.%0D%0ASounds scarry%2C but older people around here KNOW what is a World War%2C and they don%27t want a third one.%0D%0AA member of my family was in a concentration camp and he got alive. So I%27ve heard what is a WAR.%0D%0APlus I%27ve survived one%2C when Serbia attacked my country. More than 11000 people were slaughtered or blown in pieces.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ALet peace be with you all.%0D%0AGood luck to every honest man in Iraq.|110
124|7|Touchy touchy...|plaguepuppy||12:22:35|03/21/2003|Gee%2C guess the shoe must have fit.  Though actually I wasn%27t talking about you at all%2C but thanks for fessing up.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22cowardly and weasely%22 %28sp.%29 indeed - how you get away with all the insults without getting tombstone remains a mystery to me. |110
140|7|disruptors with a dozen posts|plaguepuppy||01:28:12|03/23/2003|I really wasn%27t referring to you.  I couldn%27t guess what your views are on any of the topics discussed here%2C since I%27ve never heard you say what you believe.  All I%27ve seen so far are snarky comments and insults.  %28%27acerbic%27 implies some degree of wit and irony%2C not tooth-and-claw insult hurling.%29%0D%0A%0D%0AAs has come out in other threads%2C LARED %28excuse the caps%29 seems to accapt the official Bushshit about 9-11 in all its details%3A planned by a guy in a cave%2C done by 19 guys with boxcutters and a few hours of puddle jumper school%2C no concrete warnings%2C only 4 planes in the whole NE ready to scramble%2C Afghan war only a response to the attacks%2C etc. etc.%0D%0A%28correct me lar if i%27m wrong%29%0D%0A%0D%0ADoes that describe your beliefs too%3F%0D%0A|110
144|8|Re%3A|LARED||09:14:33|03/23/2003|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Mar-23-03 AT 10:08 AM (ET)[/font][p]edit to clarify%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DAs has come out in other threads%2C LARED %28excuse the caps%29 seems to accapt the official Bushshit about 9-11 in all its details%3A %5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m pretty sure that almost all my comments have been about the engineering aspect of the failure at the WTC and pentagon. But seeing as you have brought it up let me clarify my position.  %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5Dplanned by a guy in a cave%2C%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AAssuming you mean OBL%2C yes%2C he seems to have played a significant role in the 9%2F11 attacks. If you want me to believe the Bush administration planned and implemented 9%2F11 you will need to provide some evidence that this is true. To date the best I have seen is speculation%2C conjecture and sophistry.  %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5Ddone by 19 guys with boxcutters and a few hours of puddle jumper school%2C%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AYes I believe that. Of course you mis-characterized their level of training to make it seem like an impossible task to fly a jet into a building.   %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5Dno concrete warnings%2C%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m sure there were warnings. So what%3F Hindsight is a wonderful thing for those that have anointed themselves with the belief that they and only they can discern the truth. . It gives people perfect vision as to what should have been done. The real issue is was this information deliberately ignored. To repeat myself%2C to date the best I have seen is speculation%2C conjecture and sophistry regarding this. And as I have said many times there is no way I will believe that Bush would have permitted or initiated the murder of 3000 American citizens based on speculation. That notion is the fantasy of the seriously unstable. %0D%0A%0D%0AAs a side note%2C in nearly every incident investigation I have been involved with%2C warning signs were either ignored or not understood. To believe that Bush%2C the CIA%2C the FBI%2C etc knew about 9%2F11 and idly sat back and let it happen is idiotic.   %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5Donly 4 planes in the whole NE ready to scramble%2C%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0ANot sure on that one. But I am sure there was no stand down for malicious reason. What would be the point%3F  %0D%0A %0D%0A%5Bi%5DAfghan war only a response to the attacks%2C etc. etc.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AI urge you to go read some real %28verse agenda driven%29 information about the world%27s oil markets.  Iraq is clearly %28but not singularly%29 about the long term stability and control of oil markets. Afghanistan was not.%0D%0A%0D%0AHaving said all that let once again point out for those that are driven only by their hatred for Bush. I disagree with his most of his politics. He will go away in somewhere between two and four years. Really%2C he will. Way to many otherwise intelligent people let their hatred cloud their thinking. That%2C or they are are paranoid tin foilers that should be under medical supervision . |140
145|9|Afghan war|plaguepuppy||11:33:39|03/23/2003|I%27ve never thought the Afghan war was mostly about oil%2C though the pipeline deal does seem to be back on track.  I think the Bush%2A people saw it as a way of starting on the way to other%2C bigger things like Iraq.  Given that the Afghan invasion was planned for October well before Sept. 11 it is hard to claim that it was really in response to it.  Yes%2C bin-Ladin was staying there%2C but the Afghans had offered to extradite him to a neutral 3rd country and we spat in their faces.  It was %22turn him over unconditionally right now%2C and don%27t dare ask for evidence%22 and when they balked at that we refused to negotiate%2C bombed the shit out of %28and occupied%29 their country%2C and never did catch the guy.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5D%22I urge you to go read some real %28verse agenda driven%29 information about the world%27s oil markets%22%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s not about hating Bush%2C and I certainly don%27t get all my information from %22agenda driven%22 sources%2C as if there are any that are completely agenda free%2C certainly not the corporate media.  Here is a pertinent analysis of the oil situation that can%27t be dismissed as %22unreal%22%3A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fenergycrisis.org%2Fde%2Flecture.html%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd here are some excerpts from %22Emptying the Larder%22 %28http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fromthewilderness.com%2Fmembers%2F013003_empty_larder.html%29 by Dale Allen Pfeiffer%2C FTW Contributing Editor for Energy%2C on %5Bb%5DFrom the Wilderness%5B%2Fb%5D - %28members only content for now%2C but his article become free after 3 mos.%2C and this is from 1%2F30%2F03%29%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5D%22Emptying the Larder%0D%0A%0D%0A                                          The First Real Pains of Peak Oil and Natural Gas Depletion%0D%0A                                           Are Hitting Home in the U.S. As Ranchers Pick Up Rifles%0D%0A                                                    and Oil Stocks Hit 27-Year Lows%0D%0A%0D%0A                                                   Can %243.00 Gasoline Be Far Behind%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A                                          by Dale Allen Pfeiffer%2C FTW Contributing Editor for Energy%0D%0A%0D%0A                    %5BThe signs are all around us this winter. But few see or admit them. A world on the brink of self-destruction%0D%0A                    and in denial about what is coming does not have much longer to wait before the first pains of hydrocarbon%0D%0A                    depletion become felt. In fact there are some%2C right here%2C right now%2C in America who are already feeling the%0D%0A                    first pains. And already the pattern that has been defined by generations of corporate plutocracy is%0D%0A                    becoming set in stone. %22Just give me mine%21 I feel sorry for the poor bastards who are victims but I can%27t%0D%0A                    help them. It%27s not my responsibility%21%22 This is the evolving human credo for the 21st Century. - MCR%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A                    Jan. 30%2C 2003%2C 1900 PST %28FTW%29%0D%0A%0D%0A                    NATURAL GAS%0D%0A%0D%0A                    It has been a every cold winter out here in the Midwest%2C with temperatures hovering below 20%A1 Fahrenheit%2C%0D%0A                    and frequently flirting with sub-zero. Meteorologists can find no relief in sight. Even the Deep South has%0D%0A                    stepped into the deep freeze. Furnaces are working overtime trying to heat homes and buildings%2C and more%0D%0A                    and more of these furnaces are running on natural gas %28NG%29.%0D%0A%0D%0A                    Due to heating demands%2C and increased demands from industry as well%2C the Energy Information Agency %28EIA%29%0D%0A                    has recently stated that US demand for NG will rise by 8.7%25 over last winter%27s demand. For all of 2003%2C they%0D%0A                    are predicting that NG demand will be up by 4.7%25. Due to this increase in demand%2C the EIA expects NG price%0D%0A                    at the wellhead to rise to an average of %243.90 per million British Thermal Units %28MMBtu%27s%29.1%0D%0A%0D%0A                    NG demand%2C and as a consequence NG prices%2C fluctuate throughout the year%2C with peaks during the winter%0D%0A                    heating season and again during the summer cooling season. In the week of January 8th%2C 2003%2C NG prices had%0D%0A                    risen to %245.43%2FMMBtu%2C compared to last year%27s price of %242.39%2FMMBtu. The most recent EIA report claims a 136%0D%0A                    Billion Cubic Feet %28Bcf%29 withdrawal from reserves%2C while the industry and Wall Street were expecting only a%0D%0A                    108-116 Bcf withdrawal. If National Oceanic %26 Atmospheric Administration %28NOAA%29 predictions are correct%2C%0D%0A                    then it is expected that the next EIA weekly report will show a withdrawal of approximately 200 Bcf. Overall%2C%0D%0A                    US NG storage is down to 2%2C195 Bcf%2C compared to storage of 2%2C 648 Bcf one year ago. Canadian NG storage is%0D%0A                    down to 295.2 Bcf%2C compared to 443.8 Bcf one year ago. %0D%0A%0D%0A                   ...Experts fear that%0D%0A                    persistent frigid weather could draw down inventories as low as 800 Bcf by the beginning of April.4 On top of%0D%0A                    this%2C increased use of NG for electricity generation and the continuing fall in US NG production could lead to%0D%0A                    lower than usual storage reserve replacement during the April to October injection season. Thus we could%0D%0A                    begin the winter of 2003-2004 with an unprecedented deficit in available supplies of natural gas.5%0D%0A%0D%0A                    Even US government officials over the past year have begun to voice concerns about NG supply and prices.%0D%0A                    Witness the following remark from Rebecca Watson%2C Assistant Secretary of the Interior for Lands and%0D%0A                    Minerals%2C in a keynote address at the Four Corners Oil and Gas Conference%3A %22In the next one to five years we%0D%0A                    are expecting a severe shortage of natural gas. %0D%0A                    I encourage natural gas production on public lands.%226%0D%0A%0D%0A                    Signs of Depletion%0D%0A%0D%0A                    With the price of NG climbing and expected to continue doing so%2C and with demand also continuing to climb%2C%0D%0A                    you would expect that energy companies are rushing to ramp up new production. Not so. A recent Lehman%0D%0A                    Brothers report sees 2003 natural gas production falling by as much as 3%25. And they expect this trend to%0D%0A                    continue for the foreseeable future.7 Most of the reserves upon which the US has been drawing for many%0D%0A                    years are aging. The easy-access reserves are depleted%2C forcing explorers to spend money searching%0D%0A                    elsewhere. Exploration and production are becoming more costly%2C and as a result exploration %26 production%0D%0A                    companies are appearing as a riskier proposition to investors. In a December report%2C Thomas Driscoll of%0D%0A                  ...%0D%0A                    The 40%25 increase in drilling activity has barely managed to keep NG production flat. This is because the initial%0D%0A                    productivity of new wells has been declining steadily since 1996. Furthermore%2C the rate of production from%0D%0A                    these new wells has been declining at increasing rates.11 ..%0D%0A%0D%0A                    So%2C with production flattening and declining in both US and Canadian traditional supply basins%2C where are we%0D%0A                    to turn to supply the increasing demand for NG%3F The huge gas reserves located under the permafrost of%0D%0A                    Alaska and the Canadian Arctic are looked to by many to salvage the NG supply. However%2C the various%0D%0A                    pipeline projects under consideration for moving this NG won%27t likely begin construction until 2007 at the%0D%0A                    earliest.15 Moreover%2C studies are only now beginning to judge how economically viable these projects will be.%0D%0A                    The preliminary studies indicate that these projects will only be viable if NG can maintain a higher average%0D%0A                    price%2C and then only with government subsidies and tax breaks.16%0D%0A%0D%0A                 ...  Perhaps U.S. and British intentions will become much clearer once the war has begun. If the US and the UK%0D%0A                    rush a major force in to occupy the oil fields while sending only the required forces to do the job against the%0D%0A                    Iraqi army and Republican Guard%2C this would be a clear indication of US and UK priorities. Other journalists%0D%0A                    have plausibly argued that the plan may be for a quick occupation of the oil fields followed by a long siege of%0D%0A                    Baghdad. This would give US and UK control over the oil fields and avoid the political fall-out of mounting%0D%0A                    casualties which usually accrue from urban warfare. The hope would be that Saddam%27s people would quickly%0D%0A                    tire of the siege and his Republican Guard would abandon him without the payments provided by oil profits.%0D%0A                    However%2C if the citizens of Baghdad stand firmly together and should the Republican Guard remain loyal to%0D%0A                    Saddam%2C their suffering and heroics could turn world opinion adamantly against the U.S. and might even cause%0D%0A                    the U.S. public to turn on the Bush administration.47 Should this be the strategy of the Bush administration%2C%0D%0A                    then they will want the siege of Baghdad to be as short-lived as possible.%0D%0A%0D%0A                    For the US and for the world%2C current events are beginning to reveal the lie of abundant oil resources. Word%0D%0A                    of peak oil is beginning to leak out%2C in spite of the best efforts of pundits on both the right and the left to%0D%0A                    assure people and deny the truth. The current drawdown of NG and oil stockpiles is symptomatic of the major%0D%0A                    energy crisis to come%2C and they should be viewed as a warning sign.%22%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0ALots of good links in the footnotes %28e.g. http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scoop.co.nz%2Fmason%2Fstories%2FHL0301%2FS00033.htm%29.  %0D%0AThis is the FTW free site%3A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.fromthewilderness.com%2Findex.html|144
104|2|Boeing jets and fuel out the window|tien_avielle||09:58:55|03/17/2003|I watched live via CNN from moments after the first tower was hit.%0D%0A%28Unlike the president%2C I didn%27t see the first tower hit.%29  When the second tower was hit%2C it was obvious that most of the fuel went up in flames out the windows.  The volume of smoke that was inside would have snuffed out flames.  I remember thinking%2C that%27s a good thing.  There was little damage below%2C though I did see some small explosive bursts of flame that were difficult to attribute to the jets %28though not impossible.%29  There was no appearance of scorching or flame on the lower walls.  Then%2C suddenly%2C the towers come tumbling %28%3F%29 down.  My reaction was%2C %22What the ___%3F%22  My point here being%2C I never believed that the collapse part of the WTC incidents was accidental.  The questions remain as to the who%2Fwhy that they were intentionally collapsed.  I can see so many reasons why they would be intentially collapsed%2C the task is one of narrowing it down to the right suspects%2C imo.  %0D%0A%0D%0AThis issue came back to me two nights ago%2C when a caught something on %22Discovery Civilization.%22  It didn%27t have my attention%2C but I caught just a bit of info regarding an air force person explaining the fitting of commercial passenger jets with new%2C high tech weapons.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe following day%2C I ran a search and found that%2C not only were all the attack jets made by Boeing%2C but Boeing was indeed being engaged in using these models as %22defensive%22 weapons.  %0D%0A%0D%0AThe tv show also showed an animation of how these weapons were fitted into the jet body%2C with the nose of the plane having the firing port - with capability to fire straight out%2C straight down%2C%0D%0Aor just about anywhere else in a 180 hemisphere.  These were laser %3F powered %3F guided %3F  Sorry -%0D%0Aplasma or pulse weapons.  Don%27t quote me%2C I was on the move.  But %2C it triggered in my mind that a pulse or shockwave was a far more viable cause of collapse than the official ones.  %0D%0A%0D%0AAs to the fires in the basement levels - I just had to wonder how so many people could forget the first rule of disaster management... %22TURN OFF THE GAS%21%22  %0D%0A%0D%0AAnd what about all that gold down there%3F%3F%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AI haven%27t offered any answers - but perhaps someone can offer more information.  Perhaps everyone should investigate the governments weapons and plans for more ... more war%2C that is. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A %0D%0A|93
105|3|Fact%3A the Air Force is developing an airborne laser|acerbic||14:10:15|03/17/2003|...carried by a modified Boeing %5Bb%5D747 freight version.%5B%2Fb%5D You%27re just spouting gobbledygook.|104
111|4|back on topic question and strawman insight|shatoga||13:53:54|03/19/2003|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-03 AT 02:27 PM (ET)[/font][p]%5Bfont size%3D%221%22 color%3D%22%23FF0000%22%5DLAST EDITED ON Mar-19-03 AT 02%3A01%A0PM %28ET%29%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AEvident to anyone who watches the videolinks %28post %23100%29 in this thread is that controlled demolitions cause symmetrical sudden total collapse.%0D%0AEvident to anyone who has actually seen a building fire is that damaged portions collapse and the rest must be demolished after the fire.%0D%0A%0D%0ANothing will ever convince a few avid debunkers of the obvious truths.%0D%0A%0D%0A%28Strawman%29 Would an ubsubstiantuated statement that testing on%0D%0Aonly %3Ea modified Boeing 747 freight version.%3C be proof that it%27s impossible to install such equipment on any other aircraft.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Puff the Magic Dragon%22 gatling mini-guns were tested on one aircraft%2C then installed on anything available during my war.%0D%0ANam was based on a Northwoods lie%3A history proves Northwoods%2F a faked attack in the Gulf of Tonkin%2F faked photos of %22Saddam%27s tanks massed to invade Saudi Arabia%22 %28Gulf BushWar I- the war that inspired the movie %22Wag-The-Dog%22%29  BS and dittohead faith %28in lies from their own side%29 is all Bush backers have.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27d be willing to read any evidence for airborne lasers%2C %0D%0A%0D%0Abut controlled demolition fits the simple one step answer to all evidence and all anomalies of 9%2F11%3A%0D%0ANorthwoods %28%27appendix A%27 to Project Mongoose%2F faked attacks as bogus justification for agressive war%29%0D%0A%0D%0ASimply stated. %0D%0ANobody in the history of mechanical engineering has yet demonstrated sudden total collapse of steel via burning of any petroleum products at normal atmospheric pressures.%0D%0A|105
114|5|The airborne laser being developed|acerbic||16:04:12|03/19/2003|%5Bi%5D%28Strawman%29 Would an ubsubstiantuated statement that testing on only %3Ea modified Boeing 747 freight version.%3C be proof that it%27s impossible to install such equipment on any other aircraft.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AThe size of the laser equipment and the nose cone turret used to direct the beam require the size of a 747 and a cockpit located above the cargo hold and the nose. That%27s why they are using a 747%2C you %2A%2A%2A%2A%2A%2A %2A%2A%2A%2A%2A%2A%2A. There are a few other cargo planes that would work too%2C but maybe they just had a 747 lying around%2C so they didn%27t bother to go and buy an Antonov. %3A-%29|111
115|5|Simply stated|LARED||16:26:24|03/19/2003|%5Bi%5DNobody in the history of mechanical engineering has yet demonstrated sudden total collapse of steel via burning of any petroleum products at normal atmospheric pressures.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DYet%3F%5B%2Fb%5D %0D%0A%0D%0AExactly how many attempts have been made to demonstrate %22sudden total collapse of steel via%22 any method%2C at any temperature%2C or at any pressure by anybody at any time in history%3F %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A |111
117|4|full team not present|shatoga||22:40:40|03/19/2003|I%27m miffed that the full team is not present debunking my every word.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhy do you think only two can suppress the truth.%0D%0A%0D%0AHave I failed%3F%0D%0A%0D%0APulease%3B%0D%0Acall in the other members or I shall feel obliged to present even more facts to prove the Bush version of events is an obvious fabrication.%0D%0A%0D%0ACome on now.  %0D%0AFull court press or I pull out all stops ard post more truths than you can debunk.%0D%0A%0D%0ANo way petrolem can turn steel into nothingingness instantly.%0D%0A%0D%0AGimmee full debunker %22burying under the bushes%22%0D%0A or let the obvious truths%3A it was a controlled demolition%0D%0Astand unopposed..%0D%0A%0D%0A|105
118|5|Tee-hee...|acerbic||23:05:44|03/19/2003|%5Bi%5Dfull team not present%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AIndeed%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DNo way petrolem can turn steel into nothingingness instantly%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%3A-%29|117
119|6|thanks buddy|shatoga||23:28:55|03/19/2003|I can always depend on you to help bump an important topic back to the top of page one.%0D%0A%0D%0A|118
120|5|I%27m miffed too.|LARED||07:53:22|03/20/2003|but I%27m not sure why.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%3E%3E%5Bi%5DI%27m miffed that the full team is not present debunking my every word.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AWhy send the full team when battling the unarmed%3F %0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%3E%3E%5Bi%5DWhy do you think only two can suppress the truth.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AThe truth will stand on its own. What makes you think you are the beacon of truth%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%3E%3E%3E%5Bi%5DHave I failed%3F%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AYes%2C there is a good reason as well.  %0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%3E%3E%3E%5Bi%5DPulease%3B call in the other members or I shall feel obliged to present even more facts to prove the Bush version of events is an obvious fabrication.%0D%0A%0D%0ACome on now. Full court press or I pull out all stops ard post more truths than you can debunk.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AMake up your mind. If we don%27t send in the %22truth suppression stormtroopers%22 %28I kinda like that term as it has a Darth Vader kind of tone%29  you will provide more foolishness%2C and we send in the %22stormtroopers%22 for a full court press you will post more silliness. Can I safety assume you will post foolishness no matter what your version of the %22debunker%27s%22 do%3F    %0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%3E%3E%3E%5Bi%5DNo way petrolem can turn steel into nothingingness instantly.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AI must admit that I agree with you. But what does that have to do with the topic%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%3E%3E%3E%5Bi%5Dor let the obvious truths%3A it was a controlled demolition%0D%0Astand unopposed..%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0ASure. %3Acrazy%3A %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A|117
121|6|Insults and innuendo deserve their own topic|shatoga||07:44:22|03/21/2003|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Mar-21-03 AT 07:56 AM (ET)[/font][p]%5Bfont size%3D%223%22 color%3D%22%23FF0000%22%5DIMHO%2F and that of the only tests conducted- the temperature of the fire was too low to cause steel to suddenly %26 totally collapse.%0D%0AThe evidence was destroyed before any metallurgist or fire science engineer could examine it.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s only a conspiracy when 2 or more people conspire to violate the law. %0D%0A%0D%0AObstruction of Justice %28via destruction of evidence pertinent to an investigation%29 is self evident.%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%28One team member yet to report in%3F%0D%0Abut thanks for the kick%29%0D%0A%22If you don%27t disagree with me%2C how%0D%0Awill I know I%27m right.%22%2C Samuel Goldwyn.%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2990%26forum%3DDCForumID12|120
123|7|The cut and paste brigade|plaguepuppy||12:14:31|03/21/2003|Nothing quite as convincining as reposting what somebody else just said and inserting snarky comments.  But that%27s OK%2C I%27ll take the free kick and ignore the gratuitous insults.  It%27s pretty clear who wants to discuss facts and who wants to to turn every thread they don%27t like into a mud wrestling arena.%0D%0A%0D%0AConsider the source - someone who%2C at the end of the day accepts the official bullshit version of 9-11 in all its convoluted details as gospel truth%2C and vilifies anyone who thinks otherwise as a conspiracy looney.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dblue size%3D1%5D%5Blink%3Aimages.indymedia.org%2Fimc%2Fontario%2Frise_robots_rise_-_rise_robots_rise_-_03_-_flowers_and_birds.mp3%7C%22Flowers and Birds%22%5D by %5Bb%5D Rise Robots Rise%5B%2Fb%5D%2C 1991%0D%0A%5Blink%3Aimages.indymedia.org%2Fimc%2Fontario%2Frise_robots_rise_-_1991_promo_disk_-_04_-_flowers_and_birds_ii-jtdaml.mp3%7CFlowers %26 Birds II%3A The Return%5D%0D%0A%5Blink%3Awww.daveyd.com%2Fparistrack.mp3%7CParis%3A What Would You Do%3F%5D%0D%0A %0D%0A%22In as much as all beings are our kindly parents%2C%0D%0A it would be a cause of regret to have aversion for%0D%0A and thus disown or abandon any of them.%22%0D%0A                                        ---Tantric precept%0D%0A%5Blink%3Ahome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2Fwsb%2Fhtml%2Fview.cgi-home.html-.html%7CPlaguepuppy%27s Homepage%5D%0D%0A%5Blink%3Awww.yellowtimes.org%2Farticle.php%3Fsid%3D1175%26mode%3Dthread%26order%3D0%7C Vive la France%5D%0D%0A|121
125|7|Destroyed Evidence|OudeVanDagen||12:23:17|03/21/2003|%22The evidence was destroyed before any metallurgist or fire science engineer could examine it.%22 Comment serves as evidence you do NOT have any knowledge of past and present evidence recovery and analysis efforts. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A|121
126|8|Evidence wasn%27t destroyed%3F|plaguepuppy||12:37:36|03/21/2003|You mean the fact that %7E110 piecces of steel%2C out of hundreds of thousands%2C were saved further study negates this%3F  Please enlighten us about these %22past and present evidence recovery and analysis efforts.%22%0D%0A%0D%0ASee for example http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.aol.com%2Ferichuf%2FPainfulQuestions_1.pdf for some enlightenment about how the physical evidence was actually handled.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd please wake me when the official investigation of 9-11 starts.  Another 9 or 10 months and all the committee members will have their security clearances %28final report due in 14 months%29.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A|125
128|9|Defensible decisions |OudeVanDagen||17:25:09|03/21/2003|You disbelieve there was an immediate enactment of conceptual protocols for inspection%2C intervention%2C extractment%2C and audit of specimen sections for forensic analysis%3F |126
130|10|Yup%2C that%27s exactly what I disbelieve|plaguepuppy||22:15:03|03/21/2003|And my disbelief is amply documented in the references cited by myself and Shatoga.  %0D%0A%0D%0APerhaps if you would read them we could have a meaningful exchange about this.%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.americanfreepress.net%2FConspiracy%2FFire_Engineers_Call_WTC_Probe%2Ffire_engineers_call_wtc_probe.html|128
132|11|Forensic canons|OudeVanDagen||10:42:48|03/22/2003|Basic evidence collection%2C retention%2C and analysis protocols immediatley implemented for these notable collapses%3A%0D%0A4-23-74 Burundi Mission%2C 45th St%2C NYC%0D%0A1-17-78 Civic Center%2C Hartford%2C Ct%0D%0A1-21-78 CW Post College%2C Brookville%2C NY%0D%0A6-04-79 Kemper Arena%2C Kansas City%2C Mo%0D%0A6-27-83 Mianus River Bridge Ct Turnpike%0D%0A4-05-87 Schoharie Creek Bridge%2C NY Thruway%0D%0A4-23-87 L%92Ambiance Plaza%2C Bridgeport%2C Ct%0D%0A2-26-93 Vista Hotel%2C NYC%0D%0A4-19-96 Oklahoma City Bombing%0D%0Abut NOT on 9%2F11 for the World Trade Center%3F %0D%0ABasic forensic canons were abandonded%3F%0D%0A|130
129|8|Fire Engineering 1%2F4%2F02 destruction and removal of evidence|shatoga||20:41:01|03/21/2003|Destroyed Evidence%22%0D%0A%3EPosted by OudeVanDagen on Mar-21-03 at 12%3A23 PM  %0D%0A%22The evidence was destroyed before any metallurgist or fire science engineer could examine it.%22 Comment serves as evidence you do NOT have any knowledge of past and present evidence recovery and analysis efforts.%3C %0D%0A%0D%0A I trust you just jumped in quickly and spoke from lack of information rather than arrogance.%0D%0A%0D%0A I cited a reputable source.%0D%0AHad you the courtesy or inclination to read all the posts in this thread%2C you would find a great deal of information%2C posted by several people%2C from reputable sources.%0D%0A%0D%0APost %23 92%3A%0D%0A%3E%3EJanuary 4%2C 2002%3A A firefighter trade magazine with ties to the New York Fire Department calls the investigation into the collapse of the WTC a %22half-baked farce.%22 %0D%0AThe article points out that the probe has not looked at all aspects of the disaster and has had limited access to documents and other evidence. %0D%0A%22The destruction and removal of evidence must stop immediately.%22 %0D%0AIt concludes that a growing number of fire protection engineers have theorized that %0D%0A%0D%0A%22the structural damage from the planes and the explosive ignition of jet fuel in themselves were not enough to bring down the towers.%22 %0D%0ANew York Daily News%2C 1%2F4%2F02 2002%2Fnydailynews010402.html%0D%0A%3E%2C Fire Engineering%2C 1%2F02 2002%2Ffireengineering0102.html%0D%0A%0D%0ANational Fire Sprinkler Association is also cited in another of my posts.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnother post cites a reputable source that beams were being recycled.%0D%0A|125
133|9|Erudition|OudeVanDagen||11:23:20|03/22/2003|Broadbrush biased conjecture does not support your evidence destruction or nonanalysis submissions.  |129
134|10|did you even read your own last post%3F|shatoga||14:45:32|03/22/2003|or visit plaguepuppy%27s link in post %23130%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AOne post with a contribution%2C followed by...%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AAgain%2C giving you the benefit of the doubt%2C %0D%0A%0D%0Awe all have lapses.%0D%0Athanks for your previous post.%0D%0A%0D%0APlease visit the link in post 130 and then reply.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A|133
135|11|Expand horizons|OudeVanDagen||16:02:34|03/22/2003|Much more to life than malfeasance and malpractice. %0D%0A%0D%0ANo one present on 9%2F11 or in the days%2C weeks%2C and months since was without a moral compass. %0D%0A%0D%0A|134
139|12|ingorance is no excuse for rudeness|shatoga||23:00:09|03/22/2003|Posted by OudeVanDagen %0D%0A%3ENo one present on 9%2F11 or in the days%2C weeks%2C and months since was without a moral compass. %0D%0A%3C%0D%0A%0D%0A%26 you know personally each and every one of them%2F%0D%0A%0D%0AStop the BS.%0D%0A%0D%0APost something intelligent for a change.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0APlease accept a second attempt to accept you as a rational person and%3A%0D%0ARead first%2C then post something other than dittohead type nonsense.%0D%0A%0D%0AWe%27ve given enough links and quote to show the fires were not hot enough to support the Bush fairy tale.%0D%0A%0D%0APost evidence to support the Bush fairy tale and try to convince us.%0D%0AMy links explain one reason why someone would post nonsense to divert a topic away from criticism of bush.%0D%0AGive us your reason for believing Bush instead of believing reputable sources instead.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont size%3D%221%22 color%3D%22%23FF0000%22%5D %0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fduforum%2FDCForumID12%2F2935.html%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2990%26forum%3DDCForumID12%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2926%26forum%3DDCForumID12 %0D%0A%22Here in America%2C patriotism does not mean keeping quiet. It means speaking up.%22 -- Al Gore%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A|135
150|13|Dots before your eyes|OudeVanDagen||02:03:21|03/26/2003|Heat%3F Fire%3F Supports fairy tale%3F Says who%3F Not me.%0D%0A%0D%0AIgnorance%3F YOU%27RE the one that%27s not getting the freaking clues.%0D%0A%0D%0AShut up and connect the dots%2C just connect the damn dots%21%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A|139
151|14|connected dots spell %22Northwoods scenario%22|shatoga||00:22:43|03/27/2003|the simple explanation for all events%2C and all anomalies connected with 9%2F11.%0D%0A%0D%0AUse %27search%27 people.%0D%0A%0D%0AProject Mongoose...appendix a. %22Operation Northwoods%22%0D%0A%0D%0Aa faked terrorist attack to drum up support for war%0D%0A%0D%0ANorthwoods%3A%0D%0A one need not wonder how columns mysteriously all collapsed from a fire far above%2C or why concrete crumbled simultaneously.%0D%0A%0D%0AOf course the fire wasn%27t hot enough.%0D%0A%0D%0AOne stop shopping%3A Northwoods%21%0D%0A%0D%0A|150
136|11|The price of oil|plaguepuppy||16:46:16|03/22/2003|This is like trying to talk to a Magic 8-Ball%3A no matter what you say one of a set of canned phrases comes back that has nothing to do with what you said.  Actually more like an 8-ball run through a poor language translation program %28with apologies to you non-native speakers out there who are actually trying to communicate something%29.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut dis-irregardless%2C hare%27s an interesting new song from Billy Brag%3A%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.billybragg.co.uk%2Fmultimedia%2Fprice_of_oil.mp3%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dred size%3D1%5D%0D%0A%5Blink%3Awww.daveyd.com%2Fparistrack.mp3%7CParis%3A What Would You Do%3F%5D%0D%0A%22Will our children be sacrificial lambs offered up%0D%0Ato ease the fears of multinational corporations%0D%0Alike so many brainwashed media zombies%3F%0D%0APetroleum and its byproducts should not be a dependency%0D%0Ain a technology-based society.  Nothing lasts forever%2C %0D%0Aand we cannot ask God for our gasoline.%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Blink%3Aimages.indymedia.org%2Fimc%2Fontario%2Frise_robots_rise_-_rise_robots_rise_-_03_-_flowers_and_birds.mp3%7C%22Flowers and Birds%22%5D by %5Bb%5D Rise Robots Rise%5B%2Fb%5D%2C 1991|134
137|12|Choices|OudeVanDagen||17:15:54|03/22/2003|One can choose to believe in a frenzied rush to judgement and in articles written by those who did not explore all open avenues%2C or one can choose believe in sound and honest investigation. %0D%0A%0D%0ATo broadly submit that evidence was destroyed prior to analysis is untrue. %0D%0A%0D%0AStandard and conceptual protocols for command and control%2C intervention%2C forensic recovery%2C audit%2C and analysis modeled from the 7-17-81 Hyatt Regency collapse in Kansas City%2C Mo were enacted.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A |136
138|13|The magic 8-ball speaks|plaguepuppy||17:35:16|03/22/2003|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Mar-22-03 AT 05:37 PM (ET)[/font][p]%28edited for 10%25 more garbled syntax%29%0D%0A%0D%0AOK%2C you%27ve been repeating the same odd phrases several times now without offering a scrap of evidence%3A%0D%0A%5Bi%5D%0D%0A%22Standard and conceptual protocols for command and control%2C intervention%2C forensic recovery%2C audit%2C and analysis modeled from the 7-17-81 Hyatt Regency collapse in Kansas City%2C Mo were enacted.%22%5B%2Fi%5D  %0D%0A%0D%0AAnd that assertion is based on what exactly%3F  All published accounts of the cleanup%2C including the FEMA report support the exact opposite conclusion.%0D%0A%0D%0AI see no evidence that you%27ve so much as glanced at %22articles written by those who did not explore all open avenues.%22   Guess your psychic powers are more highly developed than us mere mortals mortals who resort to actually reading the primary sources.%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dblue%5D%0D%0ATHE MAGIC 8-BALL%A9 SPEAKS%3A%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AOK here%27s the beginning of the Gettysburg address run back and forth through a few languages by Google translation%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5D%22Four points and seven years our parents%2C that they had been capacities to one new nation in this continent%2C planearam of elasticity in the freedom and those to the dedicated suggestion are that all the men are equal production.  Hour we are obligates to you in great a civil war%2C what it examines if this nation or any nation can long load therefore that one with the planning and the dedicated time therefore.  We are finds to you with a battle of this war in a Great Field.  We have come%2C the extremity to dedicate to a part this field while final calm place for those%2C than had given relative the screw here%2C that they could try this nation.  Completely acceptable and it is adapted that we would have that one in order to make this.%22%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0ASee%2C it actually makes %5Bb%5Dmore%5B%2Fb%5D sense than your gobbledygook%21%0D%0A%0D%0A|137
143|14|A hook back to the growing edge of the thread|plaguepuppy||03:56:08|03/23/2003|%5Blink%3Awww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D5586%26forum%3DDCForumID43%26omm%3D142%7CPost 142%2C in reply to Edminion%27s question%5D|138
148|15|wow%2C great site %26 apology to debunkers|shatoga||13:06:23|03/24/2003|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Mar-24-03 AT 01:29 PM (ET)[/font][p]Thanks for the link back to get this thread back on track %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont size%3D%228%22 color%3D%22%23FF0000%22%5D%5Bb%5D%5Bi%5DPlague Puppy%27s Cafe%5B%2Fi%5D%5B%2Fb%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0ALets us see with our own eyes%2C and decide for ourselves.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DLink in post %23142%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Apparently%2C %27conspiracy stuff%27 is now shorthand for unspeakable truth.%22 Gore Vidal%2C Observer %28UK%29%2C October 27%2C 2002%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23FF0000%22%5D%5Bb%5DDetecting conspiracies%5B%2Fb%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D when there are no conspiracies %0D%0Ais a symptom of paranoia%3B %0D%0Adetecting them %5Bfont color%3D%22%23FF0000%22%5D%5Bb%5Dwhen they exist is a sign of mental health.%22%5B%2Fb%5D --Carl Sagan%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AIn politics%2C nothing happens by accident. If it happened%2C you can bet it was planned that way. %0D%0AFranklin Delano Roosevelt %0D%0A%0D%0AAlso my apologies that constant dittos by debunkers irritate me more than the magic 8-ball.%0D%0A%0D%0ASpeaking points%2C like the 8-ball are endlessly repeated%2C not to convince%2C but for mindless amusement.%0D%0ADittoes to all Mr. Potatoe heads%0D%0A%0D%0AEncouragement for anyone who disagrees with any post%2C and posts evidence and links to convince.%0D%0ADisgust with anyone who merely insults and distracts instead of attempts at rational argument%2C is my own cross to bear.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont size%3D%221%22%5D%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fduforum%2FDCForumID12%2F2935.html%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2990%26forum%3DDCForumID12%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D2926%26forum%3DDCForumID12 %0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A|143
152|16|Thanks for the bump|plaguepuppy||06:24:06|03/27/2003|http%3A%2F%2Fhome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2Fwsb%2Fmedia%2Fgroup%2Flogo_org_pub.jpg%0D%0A%0D%0AHere%27s the new%2C improved Ppup%27s Caf%E9 with Slack%AE%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fhome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2Fwsb%2Fhtml%2Fview.cgi-home.html-.html|148
154|17|Just another picture of construction...|Endimion||15:40:16|03/31/2003|http%3A%2F%2Fp.vtourist.com%2F31358.jpg%0D%0A%0D%0Abtw%2C where is everybody%3F|152
153|1|Same as the temperature in hell . . .|agent86||08:56:00|03/28/2003|I%27m afraid that was once seen as a tragedy by many people around the world is now seen as a step in the right direction.  You can thank your moronic president for that%2C and for sinking anti-American sentiment around the world to an all-time low.  Who would of thought it could go any lower%3F  The only thing scarier on this planet than the thought of Saddam controlling weapons of mass destruction is the thought of George W.%28Wonder if I should grow one of those little Charlie Chaplin mustaches%3F%29 Bush controlling weapons of mass destruction.  Shame on Bush%2C and shame on America.%0D%0A%0D%0ACheers . . .|0
155|1|The Explsion|Fiddler||00:19:46|04/05/2003|I live with someone who was able to give another point of view regardless of the flimsiness of the whole buildings. The explosions in the tower that had the plane go through the corner would have held the top bit up to make it become straight again. I was under the impression that it would have leaning to one side%2C until the explosion was brought into the idea.%0D%0A%0D%0AEither way who really cares%2C just means whoever did this%2C was the worlds best demoltion squad. Is there any other team%2C man on earth yu could say to%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22I have a 747 a Trade Centere I need to have brought down%2C it cant topple etc%2C but needs to be brought down in a control decent.......%22%0D%0A%0D%0ANot even the worlds known best demoltion crew could do that with a plane. ITs the best bit of demoltion work I have seen over time%2C without the use of specifically placed explaosives.|0
156|2|Patience and knowledge are good to own|Endimion||17:23:30|04/05/2003|I see that your mother tongue isn%27t English%2C and I can%27t understand you well%2C but it seems you are against the theory of controlled demolition. Am I right%3F%0D%0A%28your words confuse me%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DI live with someone who was able to give another point of view regardless of the flimsiness of the whole buildings.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0APlease tell me why do you use the word %22flimsiness%22.%0D%0AI will mention this one more time. Does any of anti-demolition guys even KNOW how powerfull those towers are%3F Do you%3F%0D%0ACause every time some wacky guy comes here and babbles about WTC I get the feeling as he%27s talking about and old concrete-brick low-rise apartment building.%0D%0APlease%2C get some literature before you make a statement.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DThe explosions in the tower that had the plane go through the corner would have held the top bit up to make it become straight again.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0ANot correct.%0D%0AFirst%2C those fireballs were not explosions.%0D%0ASee this.%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fencarta.msn.com%2Fencnet%2Frefpages%2FRefArticle.aspx%3Frefid%3D761577751%26sec%3D2%23s2%0D%0A%0D%0AA good description is a %22dissipation and inflamation of fuel%22.%0D%0AThat fireballs we all saw made small damage to the towers. Mostly local overpressures causing window bursting %28almost no broken windows below the impact points%2C wow%2C how fascinating when we know that %22appararently%22 there had been a great overpressure at the lobby%2C yeah right%29%2C wallboard breaking and non serious stuff like that.%0D%0AAnd a great ammount of fuel burned in fireballs%2C leaving so much fuel that it could just burn out in 10 minutes. Of curse%2C it started the fire of office contents%2C too.%0D%0A%0D%0ASecond%2C the plane didn%27t go %22through the corner%22. It damaged only the impacted side%2C and 3-4 columns where the airplane motors were ejected.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DThe explosions in the tower that had the plane go through the corner would have held the top bit up to make it become straight again.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AThat is so incorrect.%0D%0AFirst of all%2C no matter how strong you %22explosion%22 was%2C it couldn%27t lift the tower%27s top. It would just destroy it more efficiently. We are not talking about a styrofoam block. It was a steel building.%0D%0AAnd of the fire was so intense%2C which was not%2C the towers really would lean a bit. Such strong fire that American investigators produced in their minds affected the core%2C and caused the core to loose its strength instantly. %28btw%2C you know what%27s %22the core%22%3F%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DEither way who really cares%2C just means whoever did this%2C was the worlds best demoltion squad. Is there any other team%2C man on earth yu could say to%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22I have a 747 a Trade Centere I need to have brought down%2C it cant topple etc%2C but needs to be brought down in a control decent.......%22%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AEh%3F%0D%0A%3F%3F%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DNot even the worlds known best demoltion crew could do that with a plane.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AExactly. Cause it couldn%27t be done with a plane. At least not in the way we have seen it.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DITs the best bit of demoltion work I have seen over time%2C without the use of specifically placed explaosives.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat the hell are you talking about%3F%3F%0D%0AIs it mine lack of confidence%2C or you are just writing plain contradictory sentences%3F%0D%0AWhat is your point%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0Ap.s.%3A This shouldn%27t be such a hard task. http%3A%2F%2Fhome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2Fwsb%2Fhtml%2Fview.cgi-home.html-.html%0D%0ASee if your theories are really good.%0D%0ADownload some movie clips%2C search for pictures etc.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0Ap.s.2.%3A Should the really INTENSE fire do what it %22did%22 in 2001%3F%0D%0AI always thought the tops would look dramatically after few parts of floors have buckled more-less with outer columns. We should see warps in outer wall. Scary bulges in the wall. Pieces of the furniture falling out.%0D%0ABut there was nothing.%0D%0AJust all the sudden%2C shootings of dense concrete dust and outer columns%2C chopped in an %22alien way%22 - at 1%2F3 of their height. At the very begining of the %22collapse%22.%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fhome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2Fwsb%2Fmedia%2F56016%2Fsite1106.jpg%0D%0AAnd no one ever explained this anomalies.%0D%0AThis%2C and many more.|155