151||0|0yes
0|0|WTC Collapse%3A New Info %26 Upcoming Investigation|targetpractice||15:29:39|06/23/2002|Just stirring the pot a bit. I suspect some folks here would be interested in tomorrow%27s public meeting regarding a %2416M WTC collapse investigation. Details are at the end of the article.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bh3%5D%5Blink%3Awww.newsday.com%2Fnews%2Flocal%2Fnewyork%2Fny-nywtc232760913jun23.story%3Fcoll%3Dny%252Dtop%252Dheadlines%7CStudy%3A Inadequate Insulation Caused WTC Tower Collapse%5D%5B%2Fh3%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AJune 23%2C 2002 By Graham Rayman%2C  Newsday%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DA new analysis concludes that inadequate fireproofing caused the Twin Towers to collapse when they did%2C less than two hours after they were struck and set on fire by hijacked jets.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe researchers calculated that the amount of fireproofing in the towers would have protected the steel for only 42 to 59 minutes in the South Tower%2C and 85 to 124 minutes in the North Tower%2C in a fire.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%3Csnip%3E%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DThe weak link in the chain was the thin diagonal rods in the steel trusses%2C which supported the floors%2C said the research team from the University of Maryland and the Israel Institute of Technology. Once the rods failed%2C the trusses began to buckle%2C triggering the collapses.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22The failure is principally due to the insulation covering on the steel rods of the trusses%2C%22 said James Quintiere%2C a University of Maryland fire expert who led the study and previously investigated the Branch Davidian compound fire in Waco%2C Texas. %22The insulation was deficient.%22 Quintiere said it would take more study to determine how much fireproofing the towers needed but that 2 inches might be a minimum.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%3Csnip%3E%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DThe study%27s release comes as a federal research agency prepares to hold a public hearing Monday in Manhattan on the causes of the collapses as part of its two-year%2C %2416 million investigation. A roster of 30 fire experts%2C engineers and victim%27s relatives have signed up to speak to the panel. %22We%27re looking for the public%27s input on our proposed investigation to make sure that our study is complete and on track%2C%22 said Mat Heyman%2C a spokesman for the National Institute for Standards and Technology.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DThe loss of the Twin Towers and 7 World Trade Center are the only known cases of total structural collapse where fires played a crucial role%2C institute officials said.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AThe hearing will be at the Marriott New York East Side Hotel%2C at 525 Lexington Ave.%2C from 8 a.m. to 4 p.m.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A
1|1|Ironic you would buy this|2muchbs||15:54:30|06/23/2002|flimsy piece of joke%2C but quickly discount the scientific analysis brought by Alex and many others. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22The researchers calculated that the amount of fireproofing in the towers would have protected the steel for only 42 to 59 minutes in the South Tower%2C and 85 to 124 minutes in the North Tower%2C in a fire.%22 %0D%0A %0D%0A  Talk about empirical double talk. How can anybody be that sure of the insulating qualities at the time of impact%3F %0D%0A%0D%0AThose time periods correspond with the actual time it took the buildings to collapse - 56 minutes in the South Tower and 104 minutes in the North Tower%2C the researchers said. A federal study released in May found that there was 3%2F4 of an inch of fireproofing on the steel in the South Tower%2C and 1 1%2F4 inch in the North Tower.%0D%0A%0D%0A  What a coincidence%2C the numbers happen to match perfectly%2C but at this point in time the fires were terribly inefficient. How convenient. Yep I am satisfied.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe weak link in the chain was the thin diagonal rods in the steel trusses%2C which supported the floors%2C said the research team from the University of Maryland and the Israel Institute of Technology. Once the rods failed%2C the trusses began to buckle%2C triggering the collapses.%0D%0A%0D%0A Perhaps they are the weak link because they in fact do not carry much load with relation to the large load bearing members. %0D%0AThis is a joke. Engineers do not use any weak member in a place that is to support much mass. If that was indeed the case the structures would have fallen a long time ago without the extra force of an aircraft impact. And don%27t forget they withstood the force of nearly 25 million pounds upon impact and remained in place. This little warp of truth is nothing more than a shot at making people believe the structures were the weakest known to man. The writer of this article seems to not even understand compressive loads vs. tensile loads. In my opinion this piece is garbage. But I am looking forward to what Jeff might have to say. %0D%0A%0D%0A Bill|0
2|2|I saw a PBS|data010101||16:25:28|06/23/2002|special about 4 months ago that did say the fireproofing was fine as long as ordinary events took place.. %28Storms%2C Hurricanes...etc. What it DID %22rip on%22 was the fact that the people who designed the twin towers made NO allowances for large aircraft 727%2C747%2CDC10%29 that could have gotten off course and crashed into the top floors of the Twin Towers%2C causing jet fuel to weaken the small struts.....All of the engineers on the show said that the design was%2C while not incompetent%2C was a case of Dollars being put before safety. I%27m not supporting any view.....I just have a feeling it%27s the same ol%27 crap....%22Hey%2C Mr.Blomquist%2C we can save 14 million bucks by not adding so much insulation%22 ....  Mr. Blomquist%3A Oh really %21...the stockholders will be happy about that.......Make it so....|1
3|3|Watch this video|2muchbs||16:53:12|06/23/2002|http%3A%2F%2Fontario.indymedia.org%2Ffront.php3%3Farticle_id%3D10105%26group%3Dwebcast%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ALook for the section above the stress riser made by the impact%2Ffire to shorten as it collapses from the top down. %0D%0AStudy this one through 15 viewings and you might be shocked. %0D%0AThe collapse should have begun directly at the cut made upon impact. But this video shows different. %0D%0A%0D%0AYou might think again about the large aircraft issue also. They were supposed to be able to withstand a 707%2C which is by no means a small craft. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe diagonal issue is a bit wierd also as they oppose so little potential gravitational energy. Take 50%25 of them out and collapse will not initiate. Unless there is a tornado or%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ABill|2
14|4|I have a question...|targetpractice||18:00:24|06/23/2002|Have you watched either the PBS or Learning Channel documentaries about the collapse%3F If so%2C what were your thoughts on that%3F Where are the flaws in their analysis%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AIf not%2C I hope you try to catch a repeat. Both shows discuss how the inner floors collapsed before the outer steel %22tube%22 and that might explain your observations in the video. Both shows made extensive use of computer simulations. After watching them %28twice%29%2C I have not seen anything in any video that is inconsistent with the engineers%27 explanation of the collapse.%0D%0A%0D%0AI guess at the end of the day%2C I tend to believe analysis based on volumes of data from the WTC engineers%2C original building plans%2C etc. more than I believe analysis based entirely on mpeg videos off the internet. And%2C I think those documentaries make a better baseline for discussion in these forums. Its much easier to talk about what is right or wrong about those shows because more people on DU have seen them.|3
15|5|I think these forums|Rex||18:08:16|06/23/2002|are free and open to all kinds of thought about what brought down the WTC. LOL%2C course I don%27t believe most the things I see on T.V. but I will try and catch the PBS documentary. I think if you look for baseline on DU %28especially on the 911 forum%29 you will be hard pressed to find one.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fmembers.aol.com%2Fkillerkhan1948%2Fimages%2Ftybob.jpg%5B%2Ffont%5D|14
17|6|Of course%21|targetpractice||18:28:27|06/23/2002|The frustrating thing for me in this discussion is that the champion of the %22alternate theory%22 really has the burden of proof. But%2C we are being asked to answer questions or refute the alternate theory which is unfair%2C because it can%27t be done. I have fallen into this trap only to be insulted for trying.%0D%0A%0D%0AI simply suggested the documentaries%2C because 1%29 they are a good portrayal of the mainstream theory%2C 2%29 many people have seen them%2C and 3%29 they are easier to understand than%2C say%2C the Gruber mathematical analysis on another thread. Nobody really understood that so it was difficult to debate. I%27d like to hear the %22controlled explosion%22 camp pick apart the mainstream theory for a change.%0D%0A%0D%0AI was trying to introduce a baseline to start a discussion. Perhaps%2C I should start a new thread.%0D%0A|15
18|7|I%27ve heard eveything from planes to UFO%27s|Rex||20:46:11|06/23/2002|brought down the Twin Towers. I%27m not sure we shall ever know since all the evidence has been carted away and will be replaced ASAP with new buildings. To me%2C the govt views it as an open and shut case. With all the secret technology that the military has and the fact that the 911 investigations have been hampered at every turn by the Bush Regime it leaves me very doubtful that the only thing involved were those planes. I%27ve seen the %27mainstream%27 media spin and spin on what exactly happened on 911 and find it odd that no other theories are discussed beyond a few websites. The actions of the Bush people are very similar to a guilty man useing his vast influence to cover up something.%0D%0AThe 911 attacks shall always be open to interpretation.%0D%0A%0D%0A|17
60|8|Thats what they want too%2C so their scheme worked%21|Mr_SmokesTooMuch||06:26:35|07/02/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jul-02-02 AT 06:29 AM (ET)[/font][p]Just like with the JFK assassination%2C only here we don%27t even get a govt whitewash investigation%2C so it%27s like shooting fish in a barrel calling people that want the TRUTH conspiracy theorists%2C tinfoilers%2C and worse.%0D%0A%0D%0AYep%2C they are right.  The US Government is GOOD%2C they never LIE%2C and always have the average American citizen%27s INTERESTS at heart.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd I%27m Donald Trump%21%0D%0A%0D%0A%28Edited because it sounded wrong in parts%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man.%22  %0D%0A          Samuel Johnson %0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fmembers.cox.net%2Fsmokestoomuch%2Fpics%2Fsalute.jpg%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|18
141|9|%22Just like with the JFK assassination...%22|plaguepuppy||01:25:07|07/11/2002|And ironically enough many of the same cast of characters seemed to have pulled it off%2C they and their younger hangers-on from the Reagan-Bush1 era.  But many of the same faces keep reappearing.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd Rex is very right about the black technology.  At the end of the day we know that some really weird shit went down on 9%2F11%2F01%2C and I think the use of black technology was in part a clever ploy to make the puzzle insoluble.  If one has to pass through several seemingly impossible or %22nutzoid%22 levels of explanation to reach the truth %28Tesla rays%2C A-neutronic bombs%2C little unmanned UFOs%2C take your pick%29 it will make anyone determined enough to go after it look foolish.  But given the trillions of dollars that have gone into the black budget it would be silly to imagine that some of these kinds of things don%27t exist.%0D%0A%0D%0AA good link on the cutting edge of true weirdness%3A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fthewebfairy.com%2Fwhatzit%2F%0D%0ALook especially at the stuff about the afterglow - it%27s real%2C it%27s bright%2C and it%27s not sunlight on dust.|60
4|3|Fireproofing was not asbestos...|targetpractice||17:00:17|06/23/2002|...on the upper floors%2C because they switched material halfway through construction due to the asbestos%2Fcancer link discovered in the 70%27s. Asbestos is one of the most effective fireproofing materials around.|2
6|4|So what%3F|2muchbs||17:24:09|06/23/2002|What difference does that make%3F Fireproofing is the wrong word. It does not protect from incandescent carbon particles%2C it is an insulating barrier to heat energy. It does not burn off in fires such as the WTC that were hunting for oxygen. And even if it did the remaining potential for heat production was very low. The supporting structure was in less danger of collapse with every passsing minute. The structures were cooler upon collapse then they would have been just 15 minutes after impact. This can be seen in the video and pics. But I can see I am wasting my time again. None of you will even consider I know more about it than you do. So have it your way. I am fine with it. Ok I agree with you.%0D%0A%0D%0ABill%0D%0A%0D%0ATarget I thought you prefered fair empirical data%3F How is this piece anything close%3F When you compared a candles flame to the Pentagon blast you lost me.  |4
8|5|hunting for oxygen%3F|Gore1FL||17:26:17|06/23/2002|hardly%0D%0A%0D%0AThe reports clearly stated that wind coming in from the ocean was feeding the flame.  %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D-------------------------------------------%0D%0A%0D%0ADon%27t Blame me%21  I voted for Mondale%21%5B%2Ffont%5D|6
9|6|I dont know why I try|2muchbs||17:46:18|06/23/2002|I have tried so hard to make this point. In the initial blast%2C nearly all of the oxygen was consumed inside the structure. Yes I said nearly all of it. This is what puts the fire out. Yes o2 does enter the cuts in the structure%2C but is consumed very quickly at the entry. The resulting heat energy dissipates quickly to the srrounding atmosphere or anything willing or able to accept it. The problem is that although winds feed the fire%2C they cannot feed the fire where the main supportive structure is. Sorry this is not a wood fire. And you have no clue. You proved that before when you said that jet fuel was designed to be volatile. When in fact it is designed to be very stable. Go figure. Your wrong but I will let you win. Its not worth my fucking time anymore. %0D%0A%0D%0A|8
10|7|When did I say that%3F|Gore1FL||17:48:41|06/23/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jun-23-02 AT 05:55 PM (ET)[/font][p]On Edit%3A  hit enter too soon.%0D%0A%0D%0AThis is the second time that you have quoted me as saying something I didn%27t say as an attack on my credibility.  The first was on another thread where you stated I just like to argue wrong or right.%0D%0A%0D%0AWell find the damn links so I can get some context%2C other wise quit putting words into my mouth.%0D%0A%0D%0AExplain how strong winds flowwing through an inferno would not be enough%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ALook at the damn pictures.  You can see how strong the wind is by looking at the trail of smoke.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt is pointless to argue with you.  You don%27t mind contradiction as long s it is yours%2C and eye-witness accounts don%27t amount to anyhting.  You make the biblical %22doubting%22 Thomas look like an amatuer.%0D%0A%0D%0AIf I compile all of your theories together%2C then the airforce was ordered to stand down so they couldn%27t stop 4 aircraft that didn%27t exist as a guise to coverup the bombs actually placed to detonate inside the targets.  Why%3F  Operation Northwoods%2C a devious plan which if created%2C was never implemented. Of course that explains everything.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D-------------------------------------------%0D%0A%0D%0ADon%27t Blame me%21  I voted for Mondale%21%5B%2Ffont%5D|9
11|8|You said that about 6 months ago|2muchbs||17:54:29|06/23/2002|In a post here. You even brought a pic of the WTC fireball and said in reply to me%2C %22yep its not volatile.%22 Thats the way it went down. You had no clue. I think we should start bringing credentials to the DU and getting rid of Bozos who have no clue but preach as if they do. Anybody want to lay it on the line and put their money where there mouth is%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ABill|10
12|9|Fair enough|Gore1FL||17:56:54|06/23/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jun-23-02 AT 05:58 PM (ET)[/font][p]sound like the point I would make.  Evidently volitole enugh to bring down a building.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AOn edit%3A  to clarify stable compounds exposed to the energies involved are pretty damned volitol whether or not they are designed to be less volitole than the could be.  A sppon full of gasoline gcan release more energy than the same amount of gunpower.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D-------------------------------------------%0D%0A%0D%0ADon%27t Blame me%21  I voted for Mondale%21%5B%2Ffont%5D|11
13|6|Ummm...no|Rex||17:58:39|06/23/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jun-23-02 AT 06:02 PM (ET)[/font][p]please show me exactly where in the report it shows clearly that wind played a role in this. Are 747%27s really 6 stories high%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fmembers.aol.com%2Fkillerkhan1948%2Fimages%2Ftybob.jpg%5B%2Ffont%5D|8
16|7|look at the pictures for one|Gore1FL||18:11:17|06/23/2002|the smoke is clearly visibly blowing at a good rate.  secondly%2C I%27ll look for the report I read that states the open gaps throgh the building coupled with the high winds made the fire burn faster and hotter.%0D%0A%0D%0AI was not talkking about the height of the explsion.  look at the hole made by the dame plane.  You can see where the wing went in.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D-------------------------------------------%0D%0A%0D%0ADon%27t Blame me%21  I voted for Mondale%21%5B%2Ffont%5D|13
30|7|Are 747%27s really 6 stories high%3F|plaguepuppy||14:14:10|06/27/2002|Only when hitting the WTC towers - when they hit the Pentagon they miraculously shrink to 20%27|13
20|3|Lee Robertson WTC Structural Engineer%3A|Ameridansk||23:57:17|06/23/2002|%3Csnip%3E%0D%0AA lead engineer who designed the World Trade Center Towers expressed shock that the towers collapsed after being hit by passenger jets. %0D%0A%0D%0A%22I designed it for a 707 to hit it%2C%22 Lee Robertson%2C the project%27s structural engineer said. The Boeing 707 has a fuel capacity of more than 23%2C000 gallons%2C comparable to the 767%27s 23%2C980-gallon fuel capacity. %0D%0A%0D%0AAnother architect of the WTC%2C Aaron Swirski%2C lives in Israel and spoke to Jerusalem Post Radio after the attack%3A %0D%0A%22It was designed around that eventuality to survive this kind of attack%2C%22he said. %0D%0A%0D%0AHyman Brown%2C a University of Colorado civil engineering professor and the World Trade Center%27s construction manager%2C watched in confusion as the towers came down. %22It was over-designed to withstand almost anything including hurricanes%2C high winds%2C bombings and an airplane hitting it%2C%22 he said. %0D%0A%0D%0A%3Csnip%3E%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.worldmessenger.20m.com%2Ftowers.html%0D%0A%0D%0AWeel%2C it appears that PBS special didn%27t bother to ask anyone with intimate knowlege of the building. Could it be that they were just trying to ease people%27s minds %28and protect some people%27s asses%29 so there wouldn%27t be any rioting%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22 I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country. %22%0D%0A--Thomas Jefferson%2C 3rd US president 1801-1809%0D%0A%0D%0A%22 Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of State and corporate power.%22%0D%0A--Benito Mussolini %281883-1945%29%2C Fascist Dictator of Italy%0D%0A%0D%0A%22America continues to remain the enigma it has always been - a curiously insular people administered by a pathologically meddlesome%2C promiscuous government.%22%0D%0A--Arundhati Roy%2C author and activist%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|2
5|2|I didn%27t say that...|targetpractice||17:13:08|06/23/2002|I haven%27t seen their research or their method%2C so I don%27t know if I buy their conclusion or not. I just posted this because I thought you and others would be interested -- mostly regarding the public meeting tomorrow.%0D%0A|1
7|3|Fair enough|2muchbs||17:25:37|06/23/2002|I apologize. I understand where your coming from. I goofed. %0D%0Asorry.%0D%0ABill|5
19|4|thx |ewing2001||22:05:17|06/23/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jun-23-02 AT 10:17 PM (ET)[/font][p]Thanks for that important info about Marriott tomorrow.%0D%0AI started to think%2C if i will maybe take a look there.%0D%0A%0D%0AI told you the official testimonies had been postponed.%0D%0AThere was no final thought or conclusion%2C i read them ALL.%0D%0A%0D%0AIn the meantime they hired new dubious teams instead of forcing the FEMA to ask them why they sold the rubble to India and destroyed all evidence.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Fireproofing%22%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AGreat joke%21 And what about at least 360 minutes fire inside Building 7%3F How does that fit together with their new physical rules%3F This building is even much smaller%21 Who did the math%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AIn europe NOONE of any fireproof institutions changed their firecodes after sep11th%2C neither they did in the States after a huge discussion about this.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhere is their old %22melted steel%22%3F %0D%0ANow it even doesn%27t exist in any paperwork anymore. LOL. %0D%0A%0D%0APulverised steel%2C now diagonal rods %28who are able to run 5 elevators with dozens of firefighters%2C until they break %3F%3F%3F%29 %0D%0A %0D%0AIt%27s just too  bizarre%21%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DGROUND ZERO Forum NYC%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.ourDNA.org%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.delphiforums.com%2Fground_zero2001%0D%0A%0D%0ASupporter of the 911-Scepticism Movement NYC%2C Washington%2C San Francisco%2C Ohio etc...%0D%0A%0D%0ASupport public LIHOP-evidence now%2C SETUP later%21%0D%0A%0D%0AOur last 911-skepticism forum was on May 3rd to 5th in NYC%2C 135 west 42nd St. %28bet. 6th %26 7th Ave%29 at Chashama Theater%2C Times Square.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt included also a panel on May 4th%2C streamed live over the net with panelists from DU%2C guerrillanews%2C GZ%2C Alex Jones.com and a live phone session with Oswald Le Winter %28Portugal%2C Ex-USA%29. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AThe 911-sceptic contents%3A%0D%0Aa%29 geopolitical background %28carlyle%2C harken%2C UNOCAL%2C%0D%0ACentGas%2C DynCorp%2C ENRON Broadband%2FTSI%2FTaliban%2C%0D%0AHalliburton etc..%29%0D%0Ab%29 investigative %2B scientific oddities%2C prior knowledge%2Fearly warnings%2C details for a set-up incl. LIHOP etc..%0D%0Ac%29 current political situation%2C historical comparisons%0D%0AProj. Northwoods%2C Bushistory%2C Ashcrofts%0D%0Adatabase%2Freading lists%2C threads of week%2C lies of war%2C yuppie fascism%2C%0D%0Acivil liberties%2Farrestments etc.. %0D%0Ad%29 political and media analysis plus current support%0D%0Afor 911-investigation %28US congress%3A McKinney%2C Stark%2C%0D%0Aplus opinions Ron Paul etc..%2C AtlantaPoll%2C%0D%0A911-petition with 11000 sigs%2C diff. books from Moore%0D%0Ato Greg Palast%29%2C 911-website projects%2C independent%0D%0Amedia portals etc..%0D%0Ae%29 Insider-oddities %2Bdetails%2C insider-infos%2C last%0D%0Aminute topics%2C %22breaking news%22...%5B%2Ffont%5D|7
21|5|Proof by PBS documentary|plaguepuppy||04:23:51|06/25/2002|I am struck by the truth of your observation that there really is no official explanation of how the towers fell offered in the FEMA report and testimonies.  Though I can%27t claim to have read them in their entirety %28congrats on your stamina and pain threshold%29 I read enough to realize that these were just bits and pieces of evidence without even a preliminary effort to construct a testable model.  What we are left with are television documentaries and cool computer animations that are long on generalizations and unsupported assumptions%2C with an authoritative-sounding narrator filling in logical gaps that would make Spiderman blanch. %0D%0A%0D%0A It%27s very hard to argue against a model when it%27s never made explicit%2C and since I don%27t have the budget for a TV documentary I can%27t compete on that level%2C but the laws of physics don%27t lie%0D%0Aand there%27s no way that the fires we see%2C with or without %22fireproofing%22%2C could generate enough heat to soften that immense and very thermally conductive steel framework.  There simply wasn%27t enough fuel to do the job%2C and even if a hurricaine were blowing %28and it looks to me that there is very little wind most of the time from the movement of the smoke%29 it can%27t generate heat without fuel.  Even FEMA admits that the jet fuel burned off very quickly%2C and the amount of combustibles in a modern office clearly would not support a sustained high-temperature fire for over an hour.  Take away the %22immense heat%22 assumption and the whole concept of weakened trusses and falling floors becomes physically impossible.%0D%0A%0D%0AAs to the %22fireproofing%22%2C which of course is simply insulation%2C there do seem to be a lot of misconceptions floating around.  I used to work in a thermo-physical properties testing lab %28DynaTech in Cambridge%2C testing composite materials for the American SST that never was%29 so I know a fair bit about this stuff. %5Bb%5D Heat flow 101%3A%5B%2Fb%5D   All materials conduct heat%2C some well and some poorly.  The worst conductors are what we consider thermal insulators.  These will delay the conduction of heat%2C but cannot stop it entirely%2C no matter how thick.  Since a building fire will not remain hot for a long time%2C slowing transmission of the heat to the metal framework will usually suffice to prevent collapse. There is no simple time relation between how thick the insulation is and how long it will %22protect%22 the building.  The insulation is not destroyed in the process so the only way it can %22fail%22 is if a very high temperature gradient is maintained for a long time%2C a much higher temperature than the fuel load could have created.  The insulation is just like an electrical resistor%3A the heat flow %28current%29 equals the %22voltage%22 %28difference in temperature across the insulation%29 divided by the resistance %28thermal resistance %3D 1%2Fconductivity%29.  So to force a lot of heat through the coating takes a high temperature gradient%2C i.e. a very high temperature in the open space near the middle of the building.  On the other side of the insulation%2C inside the steel box columns of the core%2C there is a large mass of interconnected steel with very good thermal conductivity which will carry this heat energy away much faster than it can pass in from the surrounding space.  If the heat input is as small as it was here%2C even without insulation the building would survive quite nicely and peak temperatures in the core as well as the floors and trusses would be reached not long after the jet fuel was consumed.%0D%0A%0D%0ABest wishes%2C%0D%0A%0D%0AP.Pup%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fhome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2Fwsb%2Fmedia%2F56016%2Fsite1046.jpg%0D%0A|19
22|4|That pesky Building 7|plaguepuppy||07:50:48|06/25/2002|Hey Bill%2C how%27s things%3F  Thought you might appreciate this little pearl of microstructural analysis from B-7%3A%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.tms.org%2Fpubs%2Fjournals%2FJOM%2F0112%2FBiederman%2FBiederman-0112.html%0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s a piece of a steel i-beam from WTC-7 that somehow miraculously experienced intense local heating in a high-sulfur environment%28%21%29 Sure sounds like your average building fire%2C on Mars%21%0D%0AJust think what we might have found if they hadn%27t sold off the other 99%2B%25 of the structural steel for scrap - maybe too much%2C eh%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AJeff%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fgwbush.com%2Fstore%2Fimages%2Fpins%2Fwarsham.gif|7
23|1|Interesting pic of the second tower|Art_from_Ark||09:57:04|06/25/2002|http%3A%2F%2Ftampabaycoalition.homestead.com%2Ffiles%2Fcollapse1.jpg%0D%0A%0D%0AIt looks like the part above the impact site is about ready to topple.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut sudddenly%2C the entire building collapses straight down.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe video of the second tower collapse reminds me of the video I saw of the implosion of a hotel in Las Vegas. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DPower tends to confuse itself with %0D%0Avirtue and a great nation is peculiarly %0D%0Asusceptible to the idea that its power %0D%0Ais a sign of God%27s favor%2C conferring %0D%0Aupon it a special responsibility for %0D%0Aother nations... Power confuses itself %0D%0Awith virtue and tends also to take %0D%0Aitself for omnipotence. Once imbued %0D%0Awith the idea of a mission%2C a great %0D%0Anation easily assumes that it has the %0D%0Ameans as well as the duty to do %0D%0AGod%27s work.%0D%0A--from %22The Arrogance of Power%22%2C by %0D%0ASenator J. William Fulbright%5B%2Ffont%5D|0
24|2|Israeli death toll in WTC collapse - ONE %3F%3F%3F|flaman||14:33:18|06/26/2002|Don%27t have anything to add on the technical front%2C but I %0D%0Adid come across something new to me on the bigger picture of what happened in NYC 9%2F11.%0D%0A%0D%0AAre you aware that of the roughly 3000 people who died 9%2F11%2C%0D%0Aexactly THREE were Israelis%2C and of these%2C only ONE actually%0D%0Adied in the buildings %3F %28Source - New York Times article 9%2F22 -%0D%0Aavailable in the archive - search for phrase %22only three Israelis%22.  It will cost you %242.50%29%0D%0A%0D%0AIf a plane presumably hijacked at random contained TWO Israelis%2C what are the chances that of the 3000 victims%2C only one was%0D%0AIsraeli %3F%3F  In buildings that contained thousands of high-level financial workers%2C only one Israeli was caught %3F  Are they %0D%0Aperhaps just late sleepers %3F  Or is something else at work %3F  The Filipinos%2C Columbians and especially the Dominicans %0D%0Asuffered hundreds of casualties.  How can this be explained %3F          %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DThose who remember Santayana are doomed%0D%0Ato repeat him.%5B%2Ffont%5D|23
25|3|Casualties at WTC|plaguepuppy||23:14:33|06/26/2002|This may not be exactly on-topic for this thread%2C and the whole issue of casualties is obviously a very delicate one%2C especially for those who lost loved ones in the events of 9%2F11.  But certainly looking at the events of the day overall the very low casualty rate in both the buildings and the planes is very difficult to explain.%0D%0A  All of the planes carried passenger loads far below normal for a weekday morning - a fact not explained or even admitted by any of the official accounts.  How many passengers would normally been on these planes on a weekday in the very busy northeast corridor%3F  I would assume they would usually have been full or nearly full.  Has anyone looked at bookings on other flights that morning%3F%0D%0A    And the other big question that seems to have gone almost completely unasked is how many people were actually working in the WTC that morning.  The normal number of full-time employees is about 50%2C000%2C with a significant number of visitors doing business there as well as tourists.  We know that initial casualty estimates were much higher and continued being revised downward for weeks after 9%2F11.  Has anyone even tried to estimate how many people were successfully evacuated from the buildings%3F  Clearly 47%2C000 people were not evacuated%2C but has anyone even attempted to explain the extremely low casualty numbers%3F%0D%0A    As to the number of Israeli casualties%2C we know that an explicit warning was issued over Odigo about 2 hours before the first attack%2C but probably not all of these subscribed to Odigo. In an effort to debunk %22anti-semitic rumors%22 it was announced a few days after the tragedy by GWB and others that 112 Israelis were killed - probably a more plausible number if the attacks had truly been unexpected.  This number was never corrected%2C though I have heard from several other sources that your estimate of 3 appears to be correct%2C and was known within a few days of Bush%27s claim of 112.  This does not necessarily imply complicity in the attacks%2C but at the least a degree of prior knowledge not available to then general run of WTC employees.  Another odd fact is that Dean Whitter only lost about 30 employees out of a work force of %7E2400.  I have looked at DW and other sources and can find nothing about how many of their employees showed up that day%2C but 30 casualties seems very low if it had been a normal workday.%0D%0A%0D%0AJK|24
26|4|Dean Whitter|ajw18||23:20:24|06/26/2002|%0D%0AIt really depends on which floors they were on. It is pretty cut and dried that those above the crash floors died and those below survived.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22I was trying to get out of harm%27s way.%22%0D%0AGeorge W. Bush%2C L.A. Times%2C speaking of his actions on September 11%2C 2001.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Because I love my country%2C because I am a patriot%2C and because the American people deserve the truth ... I won%27t shut up until the full and unvarnished truth is placed before the American people.%22%0D%0ACynthia McKinney%2C May 16%2C 2002%0D%0A%0D%0AMy websites%3A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.1918redsox.com%0D%0A%26%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.pedro45.net%5B%2Ffont%5D|25
27|5|meeting|ewing2001||04:15:55|06/27/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jun-27-02 AT 04:37 AM (ET)[/font][p]I missed the results of this meeting at Marriott.%0D%0AAnyone found something%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ATo the other points%3A%0D%0AThe Odigo-story is not very credible for me%2C but if you support it%2C then let me tell you that they%27re connected with the Hollinger Group of Richard Perle %28Top Pentagon advisor%29%0D%0A%0D%0ASo no chance for a jewish conspiracy and especially not for an architect and chemistry discussion thread.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe Stand-down story and the collapse are two different stories.%0D%0A%0D%0AI don%27t like it%2C when you attack 2muchBS in combining them.%0D%0A%0D%0AHe deserves a lot of respect and did a great job so far.%0D%0AI think plaguepuppy%2C ajw18 and 2muchBS brought good points%2C which are very convincing.%0D%0ABut nothing on the non-skeptic side seemed plausible or %0D%0Acontained any logic so far%2C neither did any other report.%0D%0A%0D%0AIf you see the alternative points together with Amerikadansk results%2C that Westfield %28connected with Boston Airport%2C too%29 and Larry Silverstein just filed a lease two weeks before the towers collapsed%28an own topic%2C too%29%2C i come to many different conclusion so far%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A1%29The collapse was planned and many employees of the WTC had prior knowledge incl. security staff%2C %0D%0AGold reservoir employees etc... %28many different details point on that%29%0D%0A2%29Steel can%27t melt and pulverise at the same time%2C %0D%0Athis is what i learned at school %0D%0A3%29The elevators worked until the collapse%2C %0D%0Awhich doesn%27t make any sense for me%0D%0A4%29Building 7 collapsed for unknown reasons%2C the explosion was at least 4%2C 5 hours before%0D%0A5%29The gas tank inside Building 7 didn%27t have the same amount as the fuel engines from the Towers and i also can%27t imagine the same heat. That%27s BS. %0D%0A6%29I saw the wind LIVE in NYC with my eyes. The clouds with the dust moved very slowly to Queens%2C New York and reached also parts of Brooklyn. Therefore the wind must have changed%2C too.%0D%0AHow can %22wind%22 reach Building 7%2C which was saved by other buildings%2C e.g. Hilton Hotel%3F%0D%0A7%29No testimony came so far to final conclusions%0D%0A8%29The bomb theory can%27t ruled out yet%2C period%0D%0A9%29A possible bomb evidence can be turned immediately %0D%0Ainto a red herring%2C if the FBI present a fake arrestment of any arab%2C who %22did it%22 then %28Denko Mechanical%2FWTC ID 09%2F07%29 etc.. %0D%0A %0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DGROUND ZERO Forum NYC%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.ourDNA.org%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.delphiforums.com%2Fground_zero2001%0D%0A%0D%0ASupporter of the 911-Scepticism Movement NYC%2C Washington%2C San Francisco%2C Ohio etc...%0D%0A%0D%0ASupport public LIHOP-evidence now%2C SETUP later%21%0D%0A%0D%0AOur last 911-skepticism forum was on May 3rd to 5th in NYC%2C 135 west 42nd St. %28bet. 6th %26 7th Ave%29 at Chashama Theater%2C Times Square.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt included also a panel on May 4th%2C streamed live over the net with panelists from DU%2C guerrillanews%2C GZ%2C Alex Jones.com and a live phone session with Oswald Le Winter %28Portugal%2C Ex-USA%29. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AThe 911-sceptic contents%3A%0D%0Aa%29 geopolitical background %28carlyle%2C harken%2C UNOCAL%2C%0D%0ACentGas%2C DynCorp%2C ENRON Broadband%2FTSI%2FTaliban%2C%0D%0AHalliburton etc..%29%0D%0Ab%29 investigative %2B scientific oddities%2C prior knowledge%2Fearly warnings%2C details for a set-up incl. LIHOP etc..%0D%0Ac%29 current political situation%2C historical comparisons%0D%0AProj. Northwoods%2C Bushistory%2C Ashcrofts%0D%0Adatabase%2Freading lists%2C threads of week%2C lies of war%2C yuppie fascism%2C%0D%0Acivil liberties%2Farrestments etc.. %0D%0Ad%29 political and media analysis plus current support%0D%0Afor 911-investigation %28US congress%3A McKinney%2C Stark%2C%0D%0Aplus opinions Ron Paul etc..%2C AtlantaPoll%2C%0D%0A911-petition with 11000 sigs%2C diff. books from Moore%0D%0Ato Greg Palast%29%2C 911-website projects%2C independent%0D%0Amedia portals etc..%0D%0Ae%29 Insider-oddities %2Bdetails%2C insider-infos%2C last%0D%0Aminute topics%2C %22breaking news%22...%5B%2Ffont%5D|26
28|6|Building 3|ewing2001||05:14:40|06/27/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jun-27-02 AT 05:17 AM (ET)[/font][p]Almost everyone ignored %28including myself%29 that also the roof of Building 3 %28American Express Building%29 and walkway from the West High Way to B3 collapsed%2C too.%0D%0A%0D%0AI totally forgot that for 9 months and just read an article about this again. %0D%0ABut the roof of building 3 collapsed even 2 days later%21%0D%0AThis puzzled me too.%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.wirednewyork.com%2Fwfc%2F3wfc%2Fdefault.htm%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.wirednewyork.com%2Fwfc%2Fimages%2F3wfc_damage_s.jpg%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...3 World Financial Center Building and the Winter Garden were damaged during the collapse of World Trade Center towers. The view from the Hudson River on 21 September 2001...%0D%0A%0D%0A...An engineer hired by the city%2C who inspected those buildings Thursday%2C said that some reports about damage -- notably the possible imminent collapse of 1 Liberty Plaza -- were apparently based on an %22optical illusion.%22 On the exterior of the building%2C the engineer said%2C there is an area that looks like it is buckling%2C suggesting possible structural problems...%0D%0A%0D%0AA doctor reports%2C Dr. Nijher %28NYC%29%3A%0D%0A%0D%0ASeptember 11th%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...the police stated that 7 World Financial Center was unstable and therefore rescue efforts could not be commenced. Finally at about 3-4PM that building collapsed as we watched from across the West Side Highway. %0D%0A%0D%0AOnce the building went down the rescue effort commenced in full force. Firefighters and police moved into the West Side Highway and began to dig. We at this point in conjunction with the police and EMS set up a triage center and temporary morgue in the lobby of Three World Financial Center%2C the American Express Building right across the street from the WTC. The %5Bb%5Dwalkway that connected this building to the WTC was completely collapsed%5B%2Fb%5D onto the West Side Highway. The search crews began searching the American Express Building...%22%0D%0A%0D%0AFirefighter Al Sicignano %28Engine 6%29 reports%3A%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.fdnyengine6.org%2Fpages%2Fstories3.htm%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...I saw a small opening under the bridge that connected the towers to the American Express building so I made my way towards it. I was stopped by a battalion chief who said not to go any further%2C and that he could use my help searching the underground garages....%0D%0A%0D%0A...We ran and made our way out to Liberty Street across from Number 7 World Trade. We looked up and saw that Number 7 was in pretty bad shape also%2C and decided to get away from that building as it had collapse potential. We had crossed West Street and sat down to regroup when Number 7 came down...%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fenr.construction.com%2Fnews%2Fenrbld_91301.asp%0D%0A%0D%0A%22....In the zone under scrutiny%2C about two blocks in all directions around ground zero%2C engineers determined that One Liberty Plaza%2C a 54-story steel-framed building%2C constructed in the early 1970s%2C which is southeast of and across Church Street from the WTC%2C %22was OK%2C%22 reports Aine M. Brazil%2C a managing principal of structural engineer The Thornton-Tomasetti Group%2C hired Sept. 11 by DDC to perform inspections. %0D%0A     The American Express Building%2C a component of the high-rise World Financial Center buildings across West Street%2C was not in danger of collapse on Thursday afternoon%2C contrary to news reports. Damage to a WFC connector structure where the pedestrian bridge from the World Trade Center pulled away as it failed were already noted%2C says Brazil. The Millennium Hotel%2C across Church Street from the WTC%2C was also not in danger of collapse%2C though it sustained damage.%0D%0A%0D%0A     Brazil says Thornton-Tomasetti must give DDC information on the determinations of the buildings under scrutiny before releasing information to the public. However%2C other nearby buildings%2C including 90 West Street and the Bankers Trust building are being looked at today...%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A %0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.sptimes.com%2FNews%2F091401%2FWorldandnation%2FNearby_buildings_may_.shtml%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...Shortly before 2 p.m. Thursday%2C a deep rumble was heard within the American Express building near the remains of the World Trade Center. People yelled and scrambled into the street. Radio reports predicted the imminent collapse of the skyscraper%27s roof.%0D%0AIn the end it turned out to be a piece of masonry falling from a nearby building%27s facade...%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2F216.239.39.100%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dcache%3AcUWyBWhevyUC%3Awww.boston.com%2Fdailynews%2F121%2Fwash%2FReport_recommends_better_firepP.shtml%2B%26hl%3Den%26ie%3DUTF-8%0D%0A%0D%0A5%2F1%2F2002 %0D%0A%0D%0A%22....The report from the Federal Emergency Management Agency and the American Society of Civil Engineers also said the trade center%27s unique steel supports called trusses %27%27may have played a role in allowing the buildings to collapse in the manner that they did.%27%27 But the report said more study was needed before a final conclusion could be drawn. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe report said investigators detected no substandard structural problems at the trade center. In fact%2C the towers exceeded building code requirements in some areas%2C the report noted. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe report%2C which was obtained Tuesday by The Associated Press%2C confirmed the consensus that barring a windstorm or an earthquake the twin towers could have withstood the impact of the two hijacked Boeing 767 airliners that plowed into the trade center on Sept. 11...%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DGROUND ZERO Forum NYC%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.ourDNA.org%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.delphiforums.com%2Fground_zero2001%0D%0A%0D%0ASupporter of the 911-Scepticism Movement NYC%2C Washington%2C San Francisco%2C Ohio etc...%0D%0A%0D%0ASupport public LIHOP-evidence now%2C SETUP later%21%0D%0A%0D%0AOur last 911-skepticism forum was on May 3rd to 5th in NYC%2C 135 west 42nd St. %28bet. 6th %26 7th Ave%29 at Chashama Theater%2C Times Square.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt included also a panel on May 4th%2C streamed live over the net with panelists from DU%2C guerrillanews%2C GZ%2C Alex Jones.com and a live phone session with Oswald Le Winter %28Portugal%2C Ex-USA%29. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AThe 911-sceptic contents%3A%0D%0Aa%29 geopolitical background %28carlyle%2C harken%2C UNOCAL%2C%0D%0ACentGas%2C DynCorp%2C ENRON Broadband%2FTSI%2FTaliban%2C%0D%0AHalliburton etc..%29%0D%0Ab%29 investigative %2B scientific oddities%2C prior knowledge%2Fearly warnings%2C details for a set-up incl. LIHOP etc..%0D%0Ac%29 current political situation%2C historical comparisons%0D%0AProj. Northwoods%2C Bushistory%2C Ashcrofts%0D%0Adatabase%2Freading lists%2C threads of week%2C lies of war%2C yuppie fascism%2C%0D%0Acivil liberties%2Farrestments etc.. %0D%0Ad%29 political and media analysis plus current support%0D%0Afor 911-investigation %28US congress%3A McKinney%2C Stark%2C%0D%0Aplus opinions Ron Paul etc..%2C AtlantaPoll%2C%0D%0A911-petition with 11000 sigs%2C diff. books from Moore%0D%0Ato Greg Palast%29%2C 911-website projects%2C independent%0D%0Amedia portals etc..%0D%0Ae%29 Insider-oddities %2Bdetails%2C insider-infos%2C last%0D%0Aminute topics%2C %22breaking news%22...%5B%2Ffont%5D|27
61|7|Some assistance please...|RedCloud||09:57:50|07/02/2002|I believe there is a photo of a building collapsing as if by planned detonation before the two towers fall. Does anyone have a link%3F Or if this link is elsewhere sorry about my laziness%21|28
29|4|re%3A Casualties at WTC|targetpractice||08:44:53|06/27/2002|I%27ve have heard it discussed several times that the hijackers purposefully picked Tuesday morning because it is one of the lightest travel days. I can corroborate this from frequent personal travel experience from NYC. Monday mornings are very crowded and Tuesdays are not.%0D%0A%0D%0AHere are links to two articles regarding the evacuation. It is estimated that 18%2C000 people were in the building and 90%25 of them evacuated safely. Almost everyone escaped if they were below the floors directly damaged by the plane. Almost no-one survived above those floors. The USA Today article is very detailed ...%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5D%22USA TODAY spent two months finding out precisely what happened in the 1 hour%2C 42 minutes and 5 seconds from the first jet crash to the last building collapse. The newspaper identified where 95%25 of the victims worked or were located at the time of the attacks. In addition%2C it matched floor plans%2C architectural drawings and photographs to the accounts of survivors and victims.%22%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0ARead more at %5Bb%5D%5Blink%3Awww.usatoday.com%2Fnews%2Fattack%2F2001%2F12%2F19%2Fusatcov-wtcsurvival.htm%7C%22For many on Sept. 11%2C survival was no accident%22%5D - USA Today %2812%2F20%2F2001%29%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AAlso%2C check out %5Bb%5D%5Blink%3Awww.usatoday.com.%2Fnews%2Fattack%2F2001%2F12%2F07%2Fevacuations.htm%7C%22Evacuation plans saved thousands on Sept. 11%22%5D - AP %2806%2F01%2F2002%29%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A|25
31|5|Calling in sick...|plaguepuppy||14:24:14|06/27/2002|5-7%2C000 people in each tower according to USA-Toadies%2C rather than the normal 25%2C000.  Guess a lot of folks just happened to be sick or late to work that day.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd let me get this straight%3A%0D%0A%22%5Bi%5DMorgan Stanley%2C the largest tenant in the World Trade Center%2C occupied 21%0D%0A                    floors in the south tower between the 43rd and 74th floors. Of 2%2C500%0D%0A                    employees who worked in the building%2C only six died%2C including three security%0D%0A                    officials who stayed to evacuate the building.%22%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AThe south tower was hit at about the 60th floor%2C right in the middle of the MSDW offices%2C and only %5Bb%5D6%5B%2Fb%5D people are killed%21%0D%0AGuess that %22better not go to work today%22 flu hit them harder than most.  WTF is going on here%3F%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.gwbush.com%2Fstore%2Fimages%2Fbbwdrugfree.gif%0D%0A%5Bfont size%3D1 color%3Dred%5D Or there abouts|29
32|6|I live in Manhattan...|targetpractice||16:50:10|06/27/2002|It%27s not uncommon to stroll into work after 9 and closer to 10. New York is like that.%0D%0A%0D%0AI also know people who worked at WTC and most people high-tailed it out of both buildings after the first plane hit. So%2C it%27s not surprising that that the entire staff of MSDW was below the 60th floor when the second plane hit. Also%2C remember that there were regular evacuation drills after the 1993 bombing.%0D%0A|31
33|7|Sounds reasonable...|plaguepuppy||20:21:28|06/27/2002|all but the strolling in 9-10ish.  Must have mellowed out since I was there in the 60%27s.  Whatever happened to %22How many NY%27ers does it take to change a lightbulb%22 %28a. None of your friggin business%29%3F|32
34|8|Its all bullshit|2muchbs||14:09:32|06/28/2002|No matter what you question%2C target will give some kind of broad nonsense just as paulie girl did. My God people cant you get this%3F Bush and co. blocked an independant investigation. Many of the hijackers are still alive. That alone raises the neon flag for me. Anybody else%3F %0D%0A%0D%0ABill|33
35|9|and I suppose you have had tea with them%3F|vincent_vega||15:00:49|06/28/2002|%22Many of the hijackers are still alive. %22|34
55|10|someone is having tea with them. so says BBC ABC etc... |Sterling||21:15:20|07/01/2002|Hijackers Alive and well%3A %0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbc.co.uk%2Fhi%2Fenglish%2Fworld%2Fmiddle_east%2Fnewsid_1559000%2F1559151.stm%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DPsst%2C wanna government job%3F%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fshadowgovernment.info%2F%0D%0AJoin the 9-11 mock trial in progress%21%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|35
59|11|Except for the obvious...|chascarrillo||04:05:13|07/02/2002|Clearly these aren%27t the folks that hijacked the planes then%2C neh%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fhome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejlhouk%2FPMlifesaversmusk20.gif%5B%2Ffont%5D|55
83|11|suppose you never heard of...|vincent_vega||12:44:14|07/08/2002|IDENTITY THEFT%3F%3F%3F  so what if some of the hijackers used bogus IDs%3F 19 guys bought tickets and%2C got on those planes. SOME of them used their reall Identities%2C its not hard to put 2 and 2 together.    |55
92|12|IDENTITY THEFT%3F%3F%3F Maybe but by who%3F|Sterling||20:47:01|07/08/2002|These were not random identities that were %22stolen%22 one of the men that were named and is still alive is a pilot from S.A.%0D%0A%0D%0ASounds like the identities were suposed to back te Govs story not the %22terraists%22.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhy does CNN%2C MSNBC and all the rest still show the original 19 alledged perps photos%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AWhy do they keep repeating the lie. That%27s what it is now%2C a lie.%0D%0A%0D%0AMaybe in the begining I could write it off as an error but%2C after the BS about the passport in the ruble%2C no anthrax arrest%2C no intercepts or SAM shootdowns and the perpetial lie that they identified the %22hijackers%22 just to sight the tip of this hellish iceberg%2C I am not willing to give them the benifit off the doubt.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DPsst%2C wanna government job%3F%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fshadowgovernment.info%2F%0D%0A%0D%0AVolunteer to help DUTV%2FSGTV get up and running%2C don%27t get angry at the media%2C become the media%21%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fshadowgovernment.info%2F%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AJoin the 9-11 mock trial in progress%21%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fshadowgovernment.info%2F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|83
36|9|Gee thanks.|targetpractice||15:56:09|06/28/2002|Why do you insist on the personal attacks%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AFirst%2C I started this thread and can respond to whomever I want.%0D%0A%0D%0ASecond%2C I don%27t respond to every question with %22broad nonsense.%22 I only respond to those questions where I think I can add value to the debate. In this case%2C plaguepuppy was questioning the seemingly low number of deaths in the WTC. I agree that it is miraculous that more weren%27t killed%2C but believe that is true because of generally quick thinking by the WTC occupants. I pointed him to an %2Aincredibly%2A detailed article about this subject in USA Today. I just don%27t think there is anything sinister about the fact that so many people were rescued. It sounds like you do%2C however. Or maybe you automatically prefer to take any position that is contrary to mine.%0D%0A%0D%0AThird%2C I%27ve never heard that any of the hijackers are still alive. I have read about initial confusion after 9%2F11 involving people who have the same name as some of the hijackers. But%2C where has it been said that there are people alive today whose name and photo match the suspects%3F Of course%2C many people have the same names in this world. Yahoo%21 people search turns up seven Mohammed Atta%27s living in the US today. So this issue does not raise a red flag for me. If I am mistaken%2C let me know.%0D%0A%0D%0AJust so you know%2C I don%27t buy into the official story of 9%2F11 hook-line-and-sinker. I do have my own conspiracy theories%2C because I do believe things are not as they seem. However%2C my suspicions point in different directions than yours.|34
37|10|I agree with you|karlschneider||16:57:41|06/28/2002|Just so you know%2C I don%27t buy into the official story of 9%2F11 hook-line-and-sinker. I do have my own conspiracy theories%2C because I do believe things are not as they seem. However%2C my suspicions point in different directions than yours.%0D%0A %3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%0D%0A%0D%0A There are plenty of plausible scenarios %28and conspiracies%29%0D%0A to go around without getting ridiculous about it.  There%27s%0D%0A no doubt in my mind %28I have a degree in aeronautical engineering%0D%0A and am also a commercial pilot%29 that the WTC collapses were%0D%0A indeed a result of thermal strain on the truss members from%0D%0A the fires.%2A%0D%0A%0D%0A As to the possibility of there having been %27bombs%27%2C shape or%0D%0A similar demolition charges %22in place%22%2C then why would airplanes%0D%0A be needed at all%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A %2AI can elaborate on this if necessary%2C but others have done%0D%0A  the research with which I concur.%0D%0A%0D%0A |36
38|11|exactly|Gore1FL||17:36:00|06/28/2002|and it is important not to buy into every alternative theory hook line and sinker either -- especially when they contradict each other.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D-------------------------------------------%0D%0A%0D%0ADon%27t Blame me%21  I voted for Mondale%21%5B%2Ffont%5D|37
39|11|How wild is this|2muchbs||17:38:43|06/28/2002|http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbc.co.uk%2Fhi%2Fenglish%2Fworld%2Fmiddle_east%2Fnewsid_1559000%2F1559151.stm%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AI am also an Engineer. I would be willing to put my credentials up if thats desired. And I am just as convinced in the opposite direction that the structures were imploded. If they were to fall from heat saturation%2C they should have collapsed much sooner%2C when there was more heat energy present. We should have seen several columns shining through upon collapse. Take a look at the North video again and watch the section above the stress riser created by the aircraft impact shorten before the gap closes up. The video was posted by plaguepuppy. View that video a few times and you will become concerned. %0D%0A%0D%0A As to the hijackers being alive%2C there are more reports and articles%2C and I would kindly ask Ewing to bring anything he has on them. Bush blocked the investigation%2C and some of the hijackers are still alive%2C how can anybody get past that%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ABill|37
43|12|Collapse|karlschneider||20:17:00|06/28/2002|%3C%3C am also an Engineer. I would be willing to put my credentials up if thats desired. And I am just as convinced in the opposite direction that the structures were imploded. If they were to fall from heat saturation%2C they should have collapsed much sooner%2C when there was more heat energy present.%3E%3E%0D%0A%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%0D%0A%0D%0A A college name and year would be fine.  I%27m sorry to doubt%0D%0A your claims%2C as I think we%27re pretty much all of the same%0D%0A opinion here...that we haven%27t been told anywhere near %0D%0A everything%2C but it%27s my opinion that silly%2C far-out theories%0D%0A don%27t advance our cause.  I%27ve never met an engineer who%0D%0A would terms like %27heat saturation%27.  People have used charcoal%0D%0A fires to %27soften%27 iron for centuries...perhaps you have%0D%0A heard of %27blacksmiths%27%3F  What%27s the heat value of kerosene%3F%0D%0A Choose any units you care to.%0D%0A|39
45|13|In the real world|2muchbs||00:19:55|06/29/2002|There happens to be a huge difference between a fire of which is force fed oxygen and a fire that is nearly deplete of such an oxidant. I have no doubt that heat energy changes the crystalline structure of mild steel. The part I question is how such levels of heat energy were developed. The words %22heat saturation%22 I use at the DU often to paint a simple picture.  I could use words that would better suit engineers%2C but I have been asked to keep the technical mumbo jumbo to a minimum. Every post that uses hyper technical words gets discarded as bunk%2C such as Alex Gruber%27s article. Discussions of face centered%2C body centered cubic cells%2C or lattice vacancies probably do not belong here. But if you think it could be valuable let me know. My opinion is that most of the jet fuel was consumed in the fireball following impact. If that was not the case%2C the low oxygen levels%2C after the fireball inside the WTC were responsible for reducing heat output. Either way only low levels of heat could be produced. I wish I had more time to argue these points%2C but I don%27t. If you want to match credentials lets do it. I am not overly impressed with new graduates though. Its the many years of real world experience that make an engineer. I have seen far to many guys out of college who couldn%27t tell you what a negative pressure gradient refers to%2C or how it might be manipulated effectively. %0D%0A %0D%0A I am off to the racetracks for a couple weeks. I would like to discuss more when I return. %0D%0A%0D%0ABill%0D%0A%0D%0A|43
40|10|Of course you can|2muchbs||18:22:22|06/28/2002|I did not say anything about who you should respond to. Nor will I ever. But as far as broad nonsense goes%2C did you not post this%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ATry this experiment. %0D%0AStep 1. Light a candle.%0D%0AStep 2. Move your hand quickly through the flame.%0D%0A%0D%0AStep 3. Inspect your hand for damage from the flame.%0D%0A%0D%0AStep 4. Repeat steps 1-3 until you are satisfied that an object passing through a raging fire can escape heat damage.%0D%0A%0D%0A%28Or if you don%27t have a candle%2C enroll in a firewalking workshop and afterwards describe the condition of the soles of your feet.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AThis was a comparison you used to try and show that the piece of airframe could have made it out of the pentagon explosion with no heat damage. Not to mention this was posted directly after you scolded %22bushknew%22 for posting unfair comparisons. In my opinion this little bit you posted was utter nonsense and proved to me you have no experience with said materials. %0D%0A%0D%0AI apologize if I seem a little bit passionate about what happened on that dreadful day. Everybody carries the burden of proof when such a tragedy takes place. We need to look at every tiny piece of the puzzle. If my feelings get hurt%2C so be it. If yours do so be it. But we must investigate and get to the truth. %0D%0A%0D%0ABill%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A|36
41|11|unburnt wreckage...|vincent_vega||18:40:56|06/28/2002|   Where the heck is this stuff comming from%3F  fuel air vaporization explosions create enormous shockwaves of air%2C air that would proceed the fireball and NOT melt or otherwise burn even the thinest aluminimum.  Blast and heat damage are entirely different things...and one is not dependent on the other.  %0D%0A%0D%0ASome other falsehoods you have stated as gospel%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22ALL the jet fuel aboard the aircraft burned in the fireball seconds after impact%22  FALSE.  Only 10-20%25 of the entire fuel load exploaded in the initial fireball in both the WTC and Pentagon crashes. The rest burned for hours later.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22The fires in the WTC were O2 starved because they produced BLACK smoke.%22  FALSE. All fires fueled by JP produce black oily smoke.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22The fact that the GIANT wire spools remained untouched means...%28whatever%29%22%0D%0A%0D%0AThe fact that the 757 hit the Pentagon between the first and second floors means it completely missed them.|40
42|12|hijackers|ewing2001||19:18:06|06/28/2002|7-8 original identities of the hijackers are still alive.%0D%0A%0D%0AThat%27s a fact and even the FBI confirmed this in some reports and articles of late September.%0D%0AFor odd reasons they never replaced these names on their suspect list%2C so one should wonder%2C why.%0D%0A%0D%0AYou can find various reports about the real identities everywhere. That%27s old stuff and need no further discussion.%0D%0AA summary of URLs here%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22The 911 hijacker identity mysteries%22%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.delphiforums.com%2Fn%2Fmb%2Fmessage.asp%3Fwebtag%3Dground_zero2001%26msg%3D832.1%0D%0A%0D%0ARight now i start to make a chart%2C which of the 10 %28%21%21%29 %0D%0A%22official hijackers%22%2C who got all a visa from Jeddah %28please read my topic about this%29 boarded on which flight%2C but are still %22alive%22 as well. %0D%0AA tricky job.%0D%0A%0D%0AA tinfoil conclusion would be%2C that on Sep11th only 10 hijackers had been in the air%2C but we can%27t prove this so far.%0D%0A%0D%0AThat would make it much easier.%0D%0A4 of them booked for AA93 and had been shut down %28Confirmation in Guardian%2C http%3A%2F%2Fwww.guardian.co.uk%2Fuslatest%2Fstory%2F0%2C1282%2C-1754798%2C00.html %29%0D%0AThen we have 4-5 left who maybe had been the official pilots.%0D%0A%0D%0AIf you could imagine Global Hawk for the Twin Towers and no pilot for the Pentagon %28lotfi raissi didn%27t train hani hanjour%21%29%2C you have the easiest explanation%2C but we are still far from that away.%0D%0A%0D%0ASorry for Off-Topic  %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DGROUND ZERO Forum NYC%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.ourDNA.org%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.delphiforums.com%2Fground_zero2001%0D%0A%0D%0ASupporter of the 911-Scepticism Movement NYC%2C Washington%2C San Francisco%2C Ohio etc...%0D%0A%0D%0ASupport public LIHOP-evidence now%2C SETUP later%21%0D%0A%0D%0AOur last 911-skepticism forum was on May 3rd to 5th in NYC%2C 135 west 42nd St. %28bet. 6th %26 7th Ave%29 at Chashama Theater%2C Times Square.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt included also a panel on May 4th%2C streamed live over the net with panelists from DU%2C guerrillanews%2C GZ%2C Alex Jones.com and a live phone session with Oswald Le Winter %28Portugal%2C Ex-USA%29. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AThe 911-sceptic contents%3A%0D%0Aa%29 geopolitical background %28carlyle%2C harken%2C UNOCAL%2C%0D%0ACentGas%2C DynCorp%2C ENRON Broadband%2FTSI%2FTaliban%2C%0D%0AHalliburton etc..%29%0D%0Ab%29 investigative %2B scientific oddities%2C prior knowledge%2Fearly warnings%2C details for a set-up incl. LIHOP etc..%0D%0Ac%29 current political situation%2C historical comparisons%0D%0AProj. Northwoods%2C Bushistory%2C Ashcrofts%0D%0Adatabase%2Freading lists%2C threads of week%2C lies of war%2C yuppie fascism%2C%0D%0Acivil liberties%2Farrestments etc.. %0D%0Ad%29 political and media analysis plus current support%0D%0Afor 911-investigation %28US congress%3A McKinney%2C Stark%2C%0D%0Aplus opinions Ron Paul etc..%2C AtlantaPoll%2C%0D%0A911-petition with 11000 sigs%2C diff. books from Moore%0D%0Ato Greg Palast%29%2C 911-website projects%2C independent%0D%0Amedia portals etc..%0D%0Ae%29 Insider-oddities %2Bdetails%2C insider-infos%2C last%0D%0Aminute topics%2C %22breaking news%22...%5B%2Ffont%5D|41
44|12|Why do I feel like we%27re always going back to square one%3F|plaguepuppy||00:06:13|06/29/2002|OK%2C let me tell you where I%27m coming from in terms of education and technical background - not to pull rank%2C but perhaps to help you understand why I get a little irritated with these sweeping and poorly informed generalizations about technical matters%3A  MIT class of %2774%2C graduated with high honors%2C dual degree in Biology and EE.  Worked in EE for 6 years%2C several inventions to my credit%2C extensive experience in deign and implemention of power supply and logic circuitry %28before the days of microprocessors and LSI%29.%0D%0A%0D%0AOn to some of your more obvious misstatements%3A%0D%0A1%29 %22Only 10-20%25 of the entire fuel load%0D%0A      exploaded in the initial fireball in both the WTC and Pentagon crashes. The rest burned for hours later.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AThis is silly on the face of it%2C and the FEMA report admits that all the fuel was consumed quickly %28see executive summary - I%27m not gonna waste time collecting links for you%2C but if you can%27t find it I%27ll be happy to provide them%29.  That 10-20%25 figure was an off-the-cuff guess that appeared in the Sci. Am. article about a late %2701 conferance at MIT that is no longer on the Sci. Am. web site %28copy on request%29 and does not bear up to analysis.  Try to imagine jet fuel in a vented space %28no venting%2C no fire%29 being gradually heated over almost 2 hrs. - the maximum boiling point of jet fuel is %7E300 C. %28it%27s a mix of components with different boiling points%2C the highest bp fraction is %7E300 C.%29.  We need to get the steel framework up to at least 900-1200 C. to cause significant softening%2C so we have long since boiled%2Fvaporized all the fuel long before this.%0D%0A%0D%0A2%29%22%22The fires in the WTC were O2 starved because they produced BLACK smoke.%22 FALSE. All fires fueled by JP produce black%0D%0A      oily smoke.%22%0D%0AI suppose this is why jet planes belch huge clouds of black smoke%2C eh%3F  Both 2muchbs and I have discussed this issue at some length and I have not heard any serious rebuttal.  These were not well vented fires%2C despite spurious and unsubstantiated claims to the contrary.  Oxygen was only available around the edges%2C and there was no through-flow path to vent exhaust gasses.  The elevator shafts and ventilators all had well-designed fire shutters for exactly this reason%2C and there has been no suggestion that they malfunctioned.  If there had been any kind of functioning %22chimney%22  we would have seen a big%2C localized%2C fairly high-speed plume of smoke exiting the building where it vented%2C presumably on the roof.  Care to show me where these were visible in any of the pictures%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A3%29%22 I%27ve never met an engineer who%0D%0A       would terms like %27heat saturation%27. %22%0D%0AI have... it simply refers to the fact that a large thermally conductive mass acts as a heat sink%2C and until this sink is more or less %22filled%22 there are definite limits on how hot a small local area can be heated.%0D%0A%0D%0A4%29%22fuel air vaporization explosions create enormous shockwaves of air%2C air that%0D%0A      would proceed the fireball and NOT melt or otherwise burn even the thinest aluminimum. Blast and heat damage are%0D%0A      entirely different things...and one is not dependent on the other.%22 %0D%0A Simply false%2C what more can I say%3F  Vaporizing fuel creates a blast wave before it even ignites%3F  This is too silly to even respond to.%0D%0A%0D%0AOne more comment about %22silly%2C far-out theories %5Bthat%5D%0D%0A       don%27t advance our cause%22 %3A%0D%0A %0D%0AGiven the extent of the lies concerning 9%2F11 that have been exposed so far it is a little premature to judge which theories are silly or far-out.  Here is a very perceptive comment from Gerard Holmgren%2C who has done some very valuable research on the Pentagon crash%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DWhen we say concentrate only on %22rock solid facts%22%2C it depends on what context you place this in. As far as published articles and widespread public allegations%2C I agree. But in our own internal inquiries we should be adventurous. The %22rock solid %22 facts can only be sorted out from the %22weaker facts%22 by testing all ideas. We should never underestimate the value of doubt. We should never be afraid to test an idea%2C because we think we might look silly%2C if it turns out to be wrong. This is not about racking up points about who got what right or wrong%2C it%27s about uncovering the truth%2Cand the dead ends and the silly ideas%2C and the sensible ones which just happened to be wrong%2C all have a part to play%2Cin peeling back the layers bit by bit.%0D%0AI say -externally%2C be cautious and meticulous%2C but internally%2C be adventurous%2C and trust each other enough to float %22weak%22 ideas%2C to see whether they get weaker or stronger with more input and inquiry.%0D%0A%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AFrom what we know so far this is clearly a rather large and carefully planned operation.  It does not seem beyond the imagination or resources of those behind it to deliberately create a very convoluted tapestry of %22lies within lies%22 specifically to sow confusion and make researchers seem %22far out%22 as they begin to uncover the depth and complexity of the deceptions.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd as far as seeming plausible to the general public%2C don%27t forget that the idea of prior knowledge%2C much less LIHOP and higher degrees of involvement%2C are seen as impossibly wacky by the media that most of our fellow citizens rely on for %2Aall%2A of their information and analysis.  Let%27s not kid ourselves to think that we can somehow %22buy%22 credibility by attacking those whom we see as pursuing theories that are %22too far-out%22.  Our only responsibility is to the truth%2C no matter where that leads.%0D%0A%0D%0AJK%0D%0A|41
47|13|because square one is the begining...|vincent_vega||11:44:27|07/01/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jul-01-02 AT 11:52 AM (ET)[/font][p]%0D%0AThanks for responding BTW%2C and thanks for the credentials.  I%27m sure you%27ve seen these claims contrary to yours and 2muchbs%27s theories.  The NOVA link is especialy good.  Please check out some of my tiddbits below.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AFrom NOVA%3A%0D%0A%5Burl%5D%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbs.org%2Fwgbh%2Fnova%2Fwtc%2Fcollapse.html%5B%2Furl%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AFrom MIT News.%0D%0A%5Burl%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fweb.mit.edu%2Fnewsoffice%2Fnr%2F2001%2Fwtc-cee.html%5B%2Furl%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AU Kansas%0D%0A%5Burl%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.ur.ku.edu%2FNews%2F01N%2FSeptNews%2FSept14%2Fwtc.html%5B%2Furl%5D%0D%0A%0D%0ANational Geographic%0D%0A%5Burl%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fnews.nationalgeographic.com%2Fnews%2F2001%2F09%2F0917_disasterbuildings.html%5B%2Furl%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AHere is a quote from Dr. T. Edgar%28MIT%29 for the NOVA PBS special%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A %22...let me note that it would be impossible for all the fuel to burn within a few moments. Oxygen is required to burn fuel. If a liquid is vaporized -- as it must be in order for the oxygen to mix with the fuel and for combustion to occur -- the vapor occupies about 500 times the volume of the liquid. Thus%2C if the jet fuel was consumed mostly in the first few moments%2C three things must be present. First%2C there would have been a fireball of fuel 500 times as large as the liquid fuel multiplied by 5 times as much air as the oxygen required %28because air is only 20 percent oxygen%29 or a fireball 2%2C500 times the volume of the liquid fuel that was consumed. While there was a fireball%2C it was not anywhere near this large. Second%2C there would need to be a source of the heat of vaporization to vaporize the fuel. This is what limits the rate of burning of most liquids%2C i.e.%2C the heat necessary to vaporize the unburnt fuel. Third%2C the heat generated by this rapid burning would have to go someplace. %0D%0A%0D%0AIf one calculates the amount of energy contained in 10%2C000 gallons of jet fuel%2C it is a tremendous amount. This relates again to the size of the fireball%2C which was much too small to represent 10%2C000 gallons of fuel. In fact%2C the initial fireball probably was not more than ten percent of the available fuel. %0D%0A%0D%0APlus%2C what caused all the black smoke for the next few hours if all the fuel was consumed in the first few moments%3F No%2C scientifically%2C there was a great excess of fuel%2C and it burned for hours and even months.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AHere is a %22O2 starved%22 jet fuel fire. Notice the thick black oily smoke.  BtW%2C yes jet exaust IS black.%3A%5Burl%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.aero-space.nasa.gov%2Flibrary%2Far2001%2Farhtml%2F1_2.htm%5B%2Furl%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%22If there had been any kind of functioning %22chimney%22 we would have seen a big%2C localized%2C fairly high-speed plume of smoke exiting the building where it vented%2C presumably on the roof. Care to show me where these were visible in any of the pictures%3F%22%0D%0A%0D%0AHere is a good link and image of the %22O2 starved fire%22. Note the %22chimney%22 effect.%0D%0A%5Burl%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.civil.usyd.edu.au%2Fwtc.htm%5B%2Furl%5D%0D%0A%0D%0APP%3A  %22Simply false%2C what more can I say%3F Vaporizing fuel creates a blast wave before it even ignites%3F This is too silly to even respond to.%22%0D%0A%0D%0A This statement proves to me you really have no understanding of how explosions work.  Anyway%2C NO not before it ignites%2C but the shock wave PROCEEDS the fire ball.  The air contained in the fuel vapor is burned%2C but the air outside the vaporized fuel is violently displaced.  This explosive overpresure%2C or shockwave can blast the aircraft apart before the heat of the fireball has any effect on the aircraft at all.%0D%0A%0D%0ASorry if all this is anoying to you both...but I still think you are grasping at a very weak theory that just doesn%27t stand up to common sense.  BTW%2C I really don%27t think this POV has anything to do with whether you are liberal or conservative or a Demo or Repug.%0D%0A%0D%0A|44
49|14|Let me get this straight|2muchbs||14:46:11|07/01/2002|You are claiming that you can build a Shockwave by simply burning jet fuel in our open atmosphere%2C of which by the way contains 21%25 oxygen%3F If you can do this without compression and or additional oxidant you are onto a new scientific breakthrough. Please share your findings. You could quite possibly be up for an award. You might be referring to the pressure rise as present upon expansion of said heated gasses. No doubt%2C Jet fuel has the ability to develop a fixed maximum of heat energy under ideal conditions. The reduction of heat produced is dependent on how the fuel is burned%2C meaning%2C how well it is combined with oxygen%2C and at what a%2Ff ratios they combine. Remove oxygen and less heat is developed. On the opposite side of the coin%2C a turbine engine of which provides a large steady flow of oxygen and compression as the incoming air passes through the compressor%2C will extract large levels of heat energy %28Near maximum%29 from the Source fuel which happens to be Jet fuel. Jet fuel can be burned with very little trace of black smoke. Anybody can see this as they watch out the side of the 737 they just took of in. If mixed well%2C and distributed in levels that put the mixtures into the correct ratios%2C the fuel burns fairly clean. High bypass fans should prove this to anybody who doubts this is truth. Take the very same fuel and starve it for oxygen and it produces much higher levels of smoke. One of the articles you brought here states that large portions of jet fuel pooled down the structure as their was a lack of oxygen to involve the fuel in a complete burning. If that%27s the case%2C then exactly as I had said before is true%2C meaning little heat energy could have been produced. If any of the fuel was left outside the structure unburned due to lack of oxygen in the immediate area%2C the fuel would have simply  fallen due to gravity until a point where it would have met up with fresh oxygen just outside the fireball and the result would have been instant ignition. So I must assume you are talking about complete oxygen consumption within the tower that led to the pooling of said jet fuel%3F Is that what your referring to%3F If so where did all the heat come from out of this oxygen deplete environment%3F Sure some O2 flows in%2C but is quickly consumed instantly where it combines at or near entry with your so called fuel. How does this produce heat deep into the structure%3F You either have a deplete supply of fuel%2C or oxygen%2C that causes flame out. You cannot have both as one supply will always be in greater volume then the other. Which way do you want it%3F Oxygen deplete%2C with a slow steady supply of O2 near the entrance%2C or deplete of fuel%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ABy the way just about every piece of furniture%2C paper%2C plastic%2C carpet%2C etc.%2C will emit black smoke  as it burns%2C unless an oxidant is present in large quantities. Even in the open atmosphere with little in the way of fluid flows they emit large quantities of black smoke.  Are you not aware of this%3F I have no idea what your referring to%2C but I haven%27t seen it in my lifetime. Please enlighten me. %0D%0A%0D%0ABill%0D%0A%0D%0AAs for credentials%2C here is what I would like to see. I would like the DU to except copies of our proof discretely%2C and then supply a kind of tag or lable that would show who has met the credentials requirement. I would think that would be valuable. We could learn pretty damn quick who is for real and who is here to provide disinfo. We would get much better info as we would know for sure what each others expertise is. %0D%0AI would support that%2C and would even be willing to pay for such an exercise. Anybody up for that%3F %0D%0A%0D%0A I am back to work. |47
52|15|one final post...|vincent_vega||15:43:10|07/01/2002|  As this is getting boring for all parties involved I%27m sure.  I%27m not going to adress your questions as it is just going to get messy with crap like %28you are the one who stated that black smoke indicated an O2 starved fire%29  for example...blah...blah..%0D%0A%0D%0A Just to get a few things straight.  %0D%0A%0D%0A1. I claim no specialized credentials...just those of a thinking human being with a modicum of common sense.  I referenced enough credentialed individuals for your viewing pleasure.  Disinfo%3F%3F%3F I think the NOVA article is quiet compelling...or is PBS just another Republican shill%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A2. I think you will only believe %22facts%22 that support your pet theories%2C even when the VAST MAJORITY of subject matter experts totally dissagre with you.%0D%0A%0D%0A3. Your theories are%3A  The cause of the WTC center collapse was caused by demolition with high explosives%2C and the %22aircraft%22 were%3F%3F%3F what a diversion%3F  And this theory is based on your expert analysis of the crash video%3F  That a 757 did not strike the Pentagon%2C it was somthing else%2C and that too is based on your expert analysis%3F %0D%0A%0D%0A4. I am sorry but I think your analysis will only convince those who%27s mind is already made up.  20 years down the road when your theory remains unproven I%27m sure it will still be as valid as ever in your own mind.%0D%0A%0D%0AHave fun%21%0D%0A%0D%0A  |49
56|16|Funny thing about NOVA. . .|Ameridansk||22:11:15|07/01/2002|%22I think the NOVA article is quiet compelling...or is PBS just another Republican shill%3F%22%0D%0A%0D%0ANOVA claims to do nothing else but to report the findings of a %22government-appointed team%22.  Let%27s see%2C who exactly would be in charge of appointing this team%3F  Bernie Sanders%3F  I figure John Ashcroft is a better bet.  %0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbs.org%2Fwgbh%2Fnova%2Fwtc%2Fminu_trans.html%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22 I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country. %22%0D%0A--Thomas Jefferson%2C 3rd US president 1801-1809%0D%0A%0D%0A%22 Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of State and corporate power.%22%0D%0A--Benito Mussolini %281883-1945%29%2C Fascist Dictator of Italy%0D%0A%0D%0A%22America continues to remain the enigma it has always been - a curiously insular people administered by a pathologically meddlesome%2C promiscuous government.%22%0D%0A--Arundhati Roy%2C author and activist%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|52
64|16|Vincent|stickdog||21:11:42|07/03/2002|If you want to develop credibility%2C keep pressing your best points %28after learning more about them%2C if necessary%29.%0D%0A%0D%0AAt the moment%2C you have very little.|52
48|13|Back to the fuel question...|vincent_vega||13:29:01|07/01/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jul-01-02 AT 01:40 PM (ET)[/font][p] From the FEMA study.  This section%2C while vague%2C does support the fact that the fires%2C combined with structual damage resulted in the collapse.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22The large quantity of jet fuel carried by each aircraft ignited upon impact into each building. A significant portion of this fuel was consumed immediately in the ensuing fireballs. The remaining fuel is believed either to have flowed down through the buildings or to have burned off within a few minutes of the aircraft impact. The heat produced by this burning jet fuel does not by itself appear to have been sufficient to initiate the structural collapses. However%2C as the burning jet fuel spread across several floors of the buildings%2C it ignited much of the buildings%27 contents%2C causing simultaneous fires across several floors of both buildings. The heat output from these fires is estimated to have been comparableto the power produced by a large commercial power generating station. Over a period of many minutes%2Cthis heat induced additional stresses into the damaged structural frames while simultaneously softeningand weakening these frames. This additional loading and the resulting damage were sufficient to induce the collapse of both structures.%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AHere is the Scientific American article%3A  %5Burl%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2F216.239.51.100%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dcache%3AZI4JVhwsO90C%3Awww.sciam.com%2Fexplorations%2F2001%2F100901wtc%2F%2BScientific.%2BAmerican%2BWTC%26hl%3Den%26ie%3DUTF-8%5B%2Furl%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AI didn%27t see any mention of how much fuel was burned off in the initial explosion.|44
50|14|Absolutely comical|2muchbs||14:52:14|07/01/2002|%22The heat output from these fires is estimated to have been comparable to the power produced by a large commercial power generating station.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AYeh%2C over what duration%3F To Funny%21%0D%0A%0D%0AI have had my laugh for the day.  %0D%0A%0D%0A        %3Apuffpiece%3A |48
51|15|Ahhh that%27s the article plaguepuppy referenced...|vincent_vega||15:20:33|07/01/2002|  Did you even read it%3F%3F%3F THIS is the FEMA article Plaguepuppy stated when claiming that most of the jet fuel was consumed in the inital fireball...%0D%0A%0D%0ANow you guys are debunking each other%21|50
53|16|Out of context for sure|2muchbs||17:10:24|07/01/2002|I am willing to bet my life Jeff Thinks that sentence of the article is nonsense. I would be shocked to find out otherwise. If he agrees with that section we will have to agree to disagree. Jeff seems to be a pretty sharp engineer%2C so I would assume he would chuckle at that particular sentence also. He brought the article here to show that even the official story is claiming a large portion of the jet fuel burned off in the fireball. Vincent I dont understand why we are at odds. I think we are on the same team. I do have some experience in these areas. The post I wrote above is not my pet theory%2C it is simply scientific fact. Would you prefer I lie%3F Or do you want me to call it like it is. This is not about bettering anybody. Its about searching for answers. I am very concerned that every engineer I am in contact with disagrees with the standard story. That fact drives me nuts. Does it mean I should give up everything I have learned in my many years%3F I hope not. You say you have common sense%2C and I am sure you do. But how does common sense fit in here%3F If all it takes is common sense to understand these complex issues I sure have wasted alot of time learning. Unfortunatley it takes a bit more than just common sense to understand how to best use fuels. Jet fuel does indeed carry a lot of potential heat energy%2C but its only under a near perfect environment that its full potential can be realized%2C such as in a turbine engine. This requires the correct a%2Ff ratios%2C and a well mixed combustable fluid. The giant fireball outside of the WTC was a massive %22fuel rich%22 fire. Sorry thats what it was%2C nothing less%2C nothing more.   %0D%0A%0D%0ABill |51
57|16|Off to the races|plaguepuppy||00:42:55|07/02/2002|Since 2muchbs is off doing something fun and useful with his engineering talents %28making fuel dragsters scream like tortured souls%29 I will try to respond.  %0D%0A%0D%0AThis is indeed the report that I have cited and criticized in several postings.  It is correct regarding the fuel%2C which is the aspect of it that I cited.   I think they are absurdly wrong to claim that%2C even with all the fuel gone after a few minutes%2C the burning of office furnishings could somehow produce the energy output of a large power plant.  These are simply assertions made in the executive summary of the report%2C presumably written by FEMA bureaucrats and not reflecting any of the scientific testimony.  The writer of the summary makes several rhetorical flourishes that give the impression that the collapse is well understood%2C and that there is a strong consensus among the engineers involved.  In fact a look at the actual testimony%2C as Ewing has pointed out%2C shows that no real model of the collapse is being offered and that investigations were still in a very preliminary stage.  Unfortunately the destruction of physical evidence by Giuliani and FEMA will make it very difficult to ever progress beyond this stage.%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.mostnewyork.com%2F2002-03-07%2FNews_and_Views%2FCity_Beat%2Fa-143644.asp%0D%0AThe fact that the ASCE investigators were denied access to such basics as blueprints and engineering drawings for most of the study period is mind-boggling.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe issue of the %22documentaries%22 is an interesting one.  I don%27t know a soul who thinks of NPR as a bastion of anti-authoritarian courage and integrity%2C and given the seamless concert played on the %22mighty Wurlitzer%22 of the US media since 9%2F11 I would have to assume that they are all playing from the same score.%0D%0AClever computer animations can make anything look plausible%2C but they are not a substitue for rigorous questiong of a well-defined and testable model.  Remember%2C if it can%27 be %5Bb%5Ddisproved%5B%2Fb%5D it can%27t be %5Bb%5Dproved%5B%2Fb%5D%21%0D%0A%0D%0APlaguepuppy%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fhome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fhome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2Fwsb%2Fmedia%2F56016%2Fsite1037_t.jpg%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A    |51
58|17|Missing the obvious once again|Doc Paulie||02:34:59|07/02/2002|Evidence of %22bombs%22 is exactly what most of the parties involved would LOVE to find. They would kill for any excuse beyond the plainly obvious. The WTC collapsed because a whole bunch of people%2C institutions%2C laws and standards failed.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe cover-up %28yes there is one here%29 is not about Bombs%2C it is about industry%2Fgovernmental ass-covering. It is about shifting blame and responsibility. It is about fingerpointing. %0D%0A%0D%0AThey would love to find %22the excuse%22. Unfortunately it was not that simple. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5BA HREF%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stand77.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fclinks%2Fmain.cgi%22%5Dthe 9-11 Files because you have questions%5B%2FA%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D|57
94|15|synthetic materials|riotbabe||00:00:29|07/09/2002|such as those used in office furniture and plastics have been shown not only to burn at high heat%2C but also to fill a room with extremely hot gasses until oxygen is inroduced -- which can re ignite the inferno|50
102|16|What%3F|2muchbs||01:37:14|07/09/2002|It takes oxygen in some form to build heat in any fire. There are no substitutes. Do you disagree%3F You could put a trillion tons of polymer into any area absent of atmosphere and you could not even light it. Agreed%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ABill|94
46|12|Wrong on so many accounts. Not worth a reply |2muchbs||00:23:41|06/29/2002|Exactly as I am saying to myself%2C where is this crap coming from. |41
63|10|Questions|stickdog||20:49:46|07/03/2002|Why no attempts whatsoever to positively ID %5Bi%5Dany%5B%2Fi%5D of the dead hijackers%2C despite the fact that %5Bi%5Devery%5B%2Fi%5D other passenger on Flight 93 was supposedly ID%27d%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AWhere did the FBI get the names and pictures of the supposed hijackers%3F If these folks aren%27t the same as the folks who are known to be alive%2C then who are they%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AAre %22known associates%22 of these folks still being held by Ashcroft%3F Why or why not%3F What about any associates in Saudi Arabia%3F Has any intelligence or federal enforcement agency talked to the families%2C employers and friends of these supposed hijackers to find out more about them and their supposed Al Queda ties%3F Wouldn%27t such a series of interviews make for compelling journalism as well%3F |36
54|7|Its not uncomon if you work in entertainment but...|Sterling||21:12:10|07/01/2002|Financial is a differnt tale all together. In fact many companies were busy 24-7 in the WTC.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DPsst%2C wanna government job%3F%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fshadowgovernment.info%2F%0D%0AJoin the 9-11 mock trial in progress%21%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|32
62|8|new Video|ewing2001||17:14:54|07/02/2002|...just in my mailbox%3A%0D%0A%0D%0AA new investigative video about %22bombs in WTC%22 .%0D%0AHad no time to check  yet%3A%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.bombsinsidewtc.dk%2F%0D%0A%0D%0A%28looks like it%27s based on some freaky laser theories %29%0D%0A %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DGROUND ZERO Forum NYC%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.ourDNA.org%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.delphiforums.com%2Fground_zero2001%0D%0A%0D%0ASupporter of the 911-Scepticism Movement NYC%2C Washington%2C San Francisco%2C Ohio etc...%0D%0A%0D%0ASupport public LIHOP-evidence now%2C SETUP later%21%0D%0A%0D%0AOfficial investigative journalist for http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unansweredquestions.org%0D%0A%0D%0AThe last Washington-911 skepticism forum was on June 10th in National Press Center including Julie Sweeney %28NYC%29%2C J. Michael Springmann %28ex- Jeddah %22CIA%22-Consulate%2C where 10-15 visas for the 911 hijackers had been filed%2CLorna Brett FAA %2F Airline Accountability%2C Mary Schiavo %28bio%29%2C Esq. FAA%2FAirline Accountability%2C Michael Ruppert %28copvcia%29%2C Tom Flocco %2891 insider trading%29 and Air Defenses%2FNORAD%2FPentagon-Specialist John Judge etc... %0D%0A%0D%0AThe last NYC- 911-skepticism forum was on May 3rd to 5th in NYC%2C 135 west 42nd St. %28bet. 6th %26 7th Ave%29 at Chashama Theater%2C Times Square.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt included also a panel on May 4th%2C streamed live over the net with panelists from DU%2C guerrillanews%2C GZ%2C Alex Jones.com and a live phone session with Oswald Le Winter %28Portugal%2C Ex-USA%29. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe last SF-911-skepticism forum was a rally in front of the office of Diane Feinstein in January 2002.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe 911-sceptic contents%3A%0D%0Aa%29 geopolitical background %28carlyle%2C harken%2C UNOCAL%2C%0D%0ACentGas%2C DynCorp%2C ENRON Broadband%2FTSI%2FTaliban%2C%0D%0AHalliburton etc..%29%0D%0Ab%29 investigative %2B scientific oddities%2C prior knowledge%2Fearly warnings%2C details for a set-up incl. LIHOP etc..%0D%0Ac%29 current political situation%2C historical comparisons%0D%0AProj. Northwoods%2C Bushistory%2C Ashcrofts%0D%0Adatabase%2Freading lists%2C threads of week%2C lies of war%2C yuppie fascism%2C%0D%0Acivil liberties%2Farrestments etc.. %0D%0Ad%29 political and media analysis plus current support%0D%0Afor 911-investigation %28US congress%3A McKinney%2C Stark%2C%0D%0Aplus opinions Ron Paul etc..%2C AtlantaPoll%2C%0D%0A911-petition with 11000 sigs%2C diff. books from Moore%0D%0Ato Greg Palast%29%2C 911-website projects%2C independent%0D%0Amedia portals etc..%0D%0Ae%29 Insider-oddities %2Bdetails%2C insider-infos%2C last%0D%0Aminute topics%2C %22breaking news%22...%5B%2Ffont%5D|54
65|9|More for the 2muchBS-fanclub%21%21   %3A%29|ewing2001||02:46:47|07/04/2002|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.attackonamerica.net%2Fproofofcontrolleddemolitionatwtc.htm%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...As your eyes will tell you%2C the World Trade Center collapses looked like controlled demolitions. Here%27s the proof.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe proof. According to the law of gravity%2C it is possible to calculate the time it takes for an object to fall a given distance. The equation is H%3D%281%2F2%29at2%2C where H is the height%2C a is the acceleration of gravity %2810 meters per second squared%29 and t is time in seconds. Plug in the height of the building at 1350 feet %28411 meters%29 and we get 9 seconds. That is just about the length of time it took for the very top of the World Trade Center to fall to the street below. According to all reports%2C the whole thing was over in just about ten seconds.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt is as if the entire building were falling straight down through thin air. As if the entire solid structure below%2C the strong part which had not been burned or sliced or harmed in any significant way%2C just disappeared into nothingness. Yet this %28within a small tolerance%29 is what we would expect to find if there had been a controlled demolition%2C because the explosions below really do leave the upper stories completely unsupported. Like the Road Runner after he runs off the edge of the cliff%2C the entire building pauses a moment%2C then goes straight down.%0D%0A%0D%0AAny kind of viscous process or friction process should have slowed the whole thing down. Like dropping a lead ball into a vat of molasses%2C or dropping a feather into the air%2C gravitational acceleration cannot achieve its full effect if it is fighting any opposing force. In the case of the World Trade Center%2C the intact building below should have at least braked the fall of the upper stories. This did not happen. There was no measurable friction at all.%0D%0A%0D%0AThis proves controlled demolition.%0D%0A%0D%0AWe have been lied to. We have been lied to about this%2C at multiple levels. The first lie was that the load of fuel from the aircraft was the cause of structural failure. No kerosene fire can burn hot enough to melt steel. In point of fact%2C most of the fuel in the jets was contained in their wing tanks. The thin aluminum of the tanks was pierced or stripped as the airplanes penetrated the walls of the towers%2C and the result was the huge fireball which was seen on national TV%2C where most of this fuel was burned.%0D%0A%0D%0AA hot%2C vigorous fire would have blown out many windows in the building and would have burned a red or white color. This was not what happened. The fire in the World Trade Center was an ordinary smoldering office fire.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut let%27s suppose that the fire was hot enough to melt steel. What would have happened in that case%3F Before it breaks%2C hot steel begins to bend. This redistributes the forces in the structure and puts elastic stress on those parts that are still cool. The process is asymmetric%2C so that the structure should visibly bend before breaking. But of course%2C no steel skyscraper has even bent over in a fire.%0D%0A%0D%0ALet%27s suppose the structure were sufficiently weakened that it did fail catastrophically near the point of the airplane strike. In this case%2C the intact structure below would exert an upward force on the base of the upper story portion of the building %28the part that has been broken loose%29%2C while any asymmetry would allow the force of gravity to work uninhibited on the tip of the skyscraper. Thus%2C the top section of the skyscraper would tip and fall sideways.%0D%0A%0D%0AIf it did not tip%2C it would have ground straight down through the building below. The gravitational potential energy of the upper stories would be coupled into the frame below%2C beginning to destroy it. The frame below would deflect elastically%2C absorbing energy in the process of deflecting. At weak points%2C the metal structure would break%2C but the elastic energy absorbed into the entire frame would not be available to do more destruction. Instead%2C it would be dissipated in vibration%2C acoustic noise and heat. Eventually this process would grind to a halt%2C because the gravitational potential energy of a skyscraper is nowhere near sufficient to destroy its own frame.%0D%0A%0D%0AIf the World Trade Center towers had been built entirely out of concrete%2C they might have stood for awhile before toppling in the wind. But in that case%2C if they had collapsed straight downwards%2C the energy required to pulverize the concrete would have slowed the downward progress of the upward stories. The gravitational potential energy of the World Trade Center was barely sufficient to convert its concrete into powder%2C and for that to happen in an accidental collapse would have been impossible%2C but would have taken a lot longer than 10 seconds in any case.%0D%0A%0D%0AHow it was done. The World Trade Center was leased by Westfield America and Larry Silverstein%2C on April 26th%2C 2001. Zim Israeli Shipping moved out of the buildings around that time. With a certain amount of shuffling of tenants from floor to floor%2C it should have been easy %28with all the commotion and noise of remodeling%29 to plant explosives on several floors%3B enough for at least a sloppy kind of controlled demolition...%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DGROUND ZERO Forum NYC%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.ourDNA.org%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.delphiforums.com%2Fground_zero2001%0D%0A%0D%0ASupporter of the 911-Scepticism Movement NYC%2C Washington%2C San Francisco%2C Ohio etc...%0D%0A%0D%0ASupport public LIHOP-evidence now%2C SETUP later%21%0D%0A%0D%0AOfficial investigative journalist for http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unansweredquestions.org%0D%0A%0D%0AThe last Washington-911 skepticism forum was on June 10th in National Press Center including Julie Sweeney %28NYC%29%2C J. Michael Springmann %28ex- Jeddah %22CIA%22-Consulate%2C where 10-15 visas for the 911 hijackers had been filed%2CLorna Brett FAA %2F Airline Accountability%2C Mary Schiavo %28bio%29%2C Esq. FAA%2FAirline Accountability%2C Michael Ruppert %28copvcia%29%2C Tom Flocco %2891 insider trading%29 and Air Defenses%2FNORAD%2FPentagon-Specialist John Judge etc... %0D%0A%0D%0AThe last NYC- 911-skepticism forum was on May 3rd to 5th in NYC%2C 135 west 42nd St. %28bet. 6th %26 7th Ave%29 at Chashama Theater%2C Times Square.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt included also a panel on May 4th%2C streamed live over the net with panelists from DU%2C guerrillanews%2C GZ%2C Alex Jones.com and a live phone session with Oswald Le Winter %28Portugal%2C Ex-USA%29. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe last SF-911-skepticism forum was a rally in front of the office of Diane Feinstein in January 2002.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe 911-sceptic contents%3A%0D%0Aa%29 geopolitical background %28carlyle%2C harken%2C UNOCAL%2C%0D%0ACentGas%2C DynCorp%2C ENRON Broadband%2FTSI%2FTaliban%2C%0D%0AHalliburton etc..%29%0D%0Ab%29 investigative %2B scientific oddities%2C prior knowledge%2Fearly warnings%2C details for a set-up incl. LIHOP etc..%0D%0Ac%29 current political situation%2C historical comparisons%0D%0AProj. Northwoods%2C Bushistory%2C Ashcrofts%0D%0Adatabase%2Freading lists%2C threads of week%2C lies of war%2C yuppie fascism%2C%0D%0Acivil liberties%2Farrestments etc.. %0D%0Ad%29 political and media analysis plus current support%0D%0Afor 911-investigation %28US congress%3A McKinney%2C Stark%2C%0D%0Aplus opinions Ron Paul etc..%2C AtlantaPoll%2C%0D%0A911-petition with 11000 sigs%2C diff. books from Moore%0D%0Ato Greg Palast%29%2C 911-website projects%2C independent%0D%0Amedia portals etc..%0D%0Ae%29 Insider-oddities %2Bdetails%2C insider-infos%2C last%0D%0Aminute topics%2C %22breaking news%22...%5B%2Ffont%5D|62
66|10|keep arguing|ajw18||11:41:03|07/04/2002|%0D%0AI%2C for one%2C like the back and forth%2C and would encourage it. Not all of the lay people here are turned off by it. As long as we keep discussions on the evidence %28and not on personal attacks or snide remarks%29%2C I say keep it up.%0D%0A%0D%0AHas anyone %28ewing%3F%29 seen this video%3F I was trying to figure out the price and if it would play in US VHS players%2C but got confused.%0D%0A%0D%0AAllan%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22I was trying to get out of harm%27s way.%22%0D%0AGeorge W. Bush%2C L.A. Times%2C speaking of his actions on September 11%2C 2001.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Because I love my country%2C because I am a patriot%2C and because the American people deserve the truth ... I won%27t shut up until the full and unvarnished truth is placed before the American people.%22%0D%0ACynthia McKinney%2C May 16%2C 2002%0D%0A%0D%0AMy websites%3A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.1918redsox.com%0D%0A%26%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.pedro45.net%5B%2Ffont%5D|65
67|11|The short answer%3A no%2C it won%27t play|chascarrillo||13:43:40|07/04/2002|The tape is only currently available in PAL. US TVs are NTSC%2C so you%27d need either a PAL TV or PAL-to-NTSC converter%2C the latter of which tends to be pretty expensive %28say around %24300%29 but they do carry them at Radio Shack. You %5Bi%5Dmight%5B%2Fi%5D need a VCR with PAL compatability as well - I%27m not sure. Terribly cost inefficient - I know.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe sad thing is that most European TVs are both NTSC and PAL compatible%2C but the US market doesn%27t see a need to insert PAL compatability here in the states. It%27s a bit more of an issue now that people are interested in international DVDs - and there you have the obnoxious %28and possibly illegal%29 region encoding %22feature%22%2C too.%0D%0A%0D%0AThere is another option%3A a lot of video reproduction companies will convert tapes from PAL to NTSC for you. The price is again kinda steep - sorry%2C dunno offhand what they run.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe text seems to indicate that the author might be working on a NTSC version later on%2C so maybe the best option would be to wait for that.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fhome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejlhouk%2FDRJOLLY.jpg%5B%2Ffont%5D|66
68|11|Video formats|plaguepuppy||13:46:19|07/04/2002|PAL is the european video format%2C NTSC is the US version%2C so it looks like we%27ll have to wait.  The Euro is slightly less than the dollar%2C so the single tape version is %7E%2453%0D%0A%0D%0AI had always suspected that there was a lot more video footage out there and look forward to seeing it.  Maybe we finally have our smoking gun...%0D%0A%0D%0AP.Pup%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.gwbush.com%2Fstore%2Fimages%2Fbbwpunk.gif%0D%0A%5Bfont size%3D1 color%3Dred%5DComing soon%3A  Bomb theory for Dummies%21|66
69|12|free|ewing2001||17:11:48|07/04/2002|A friend of mine has all these converters and different VCRs.%0D%0AIt%27s easy to convert european to us media for him in a minute%2C so i could do it.%0D%0A%0D%0AI have to meet him anywhere soon. %0D%0AWe plan to play a little bit with the Bush-%22Zapruder%22-movie and need a lot of original WTC-footage %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0AI guess%2C you got the idea.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DGROUND ZERO Forum NYC%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.ourDNA.org%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.delphiforums.com%2Fground_zero2001%0D%0A%0D%0ASupporter of the 911-Scepticism Movement NYC%2C Washington%2C San Francisco%2C Ohio etc...%0D%0A%0D%0ASupport public LIHOP-evidence now%2C SETUP later%21%0D%0A%0D%0AOfficial investigative journalist for http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unansweredquestions.org%0D%0A%0D%0AThe last Washington-911 skepticism forum was on June 10th in National Press Center including Julie Sweeney %28NYC%29%2C J. Michael Springmann %28ex- Jeddah %22CIA%22-Consulate%2C where 10-15 visas for the 911 hijackers had been filed%2CLorna Brett FAA %2F Airline Accountability%2C Mary Schiavo %28bio%29%2C Esq. FAA%2FAirline Accountability%2C Michael Ruppert %28copvcia%29%2C Tom Flocco %2891 insider trading%29 and Air Defenses%2FNORAD%2FPentagon-Specialist John Judge etc... %0D%0A%0D%0AThe last NYC- 911-skepticism forum was on May 3rd to 5th in NYC%2C 135 west 42nd St. %28bet. 6th %26 7th Ave%29 at Chashama Theater%2C Times Square.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt included also a panel on May 4th%2C streamed live over the net with panelists from DU%2C guerrillanews%2C GZ%2C Alex Jones.com and a live phone session with Oswald Le Winter %28Portugal%2C Ex-USA%29. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe last SF-911-skepticism forum was a rally in front of the office of Diane Feinstein in January 2002.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe 911-sceptic contents%3A%0D%0Aa%29 geopolitical background %28carlyle%2C harken%2C UNOCAL%2C%0D%0ACentGas%2C DynCorp%2C ENRON Broadband%2FTSI%2FTaliban%2C%0D%0AHalliburton etc..%29%0D%0Ab%29 investigative %2B scientific oddities%2C prior knowledge%2Fearly warnings%2C details for a set-up incl. LIHOP etc..%0D%0Ac%29 current political situation%2C historical comparisons%0D%0AProj. Northwoods%2C Bushistory%2C Ashcrofts%0D%0Adatabase%2Freading lists%2C threads of week%2C lies of war%2C yuppie fascism%2C%0D%0Acivil liberties%2Farrestments etc.. %0D%0Ad%29 political and media analysis plus current support%0D%0Afor 911-investigation %28US congress%3A McKinney%2C Stark%2C%0D%0Aplus opinions Ron Paul etc..%2C AtlantaPoll%2C%0D%0A911-petition with 11000 sigs%2C diff. books from Moore%0D%0Ato Greg Palast%29%2C 911-website projects%2C independent%0D%0Amedia portals etc..%0D%0Ae%29 Insider-oddities %2Bdetails%2C insider-infos%2C last%0D%0Aminute topics%2C %22breaking news%22...%5B%2Ffont%5D|68
70|10|Like NO controlled demolition I have ever seen...|vincent_vega||11:25:59|07/05/2002|  Controlled explosions have the structure collapsing from the bottom up%2C with the building imploding in on itself%2C like an accordian or as if it is dissappearing into the ground.  Both WTC did neither.  They started at the point of impact and then ground down to the bottom%2C driven by the floors above the impact zones.  The explosives would have needed to be placed right at the point the aircraft hit the buildings.  Normal demolitions have the plume of dust at the base%2C not at the top.%0D%0A%0D%0AAlso the statement that the buildings nearly free fell is silly%2C look at the plume of debris%2C it is at the top and then beats the collapse to the ground.  %0D%0A%0D%0A|65
74|11|What%3F|2muchbs||20:50:25|07/05/2002|Wherever explosives are first detonated is where you will see the first elements of a debris field. This is exactly why its so very interesting that so much concrete dust was set free before much collapse. It takes energy of some source to pound concrete into fine powder. Surely you agree with that correct%3F The argument I have heard so many times%2C that the entire structure carried enough energy to support the sun or any other craziness is all bunk. Of course the structure had massive amounts of potential gravitational energy. The real question is%2C what caused the conversion. As this requires more energy than was available from the fire itself we all have to wonder what triggered the conversion. Once again common sense wont do it. %0D%0AIt takes many years of experience. %0D%0A%0D%0ABill|70
75|11|Your missing about a thousand variables|2muchbs||21:01:49|07/05/2002|How about mass density of said materials. How about Aerodynamic pressure exerted over said debris shapes. How about pressure drops or rises locally. How about the fact that every piece of the structures were set into motion at different times. How about velocity changes of surrounding atmoshpere%3F Etc%2C etc%2C. %0D%0ATo say a theory that you dont want to believe in is silly is%2C well%2C silly. Especially when you have admitted you haven%27t a clue about engineering.  |70
81|12| This post is just silly.|vincent_vega||12:27:17|07/08/2002|%0D%0A For the building to %22FREE FALL%22 like what YOU are CLAIMING%2C all floors would need to fail nearly simultaniously%21%21%21 DID that happen%3F%3F If not then all your %22variables%22 is just 2muchBS.  Have you ever seen a building accordian%2C or %22smokestack%22 into the ground%2C it Is ENTIRELY different to what both WTC towers did on 9-11. EVEN if you stick with your demolition-at-the-impact-points theory%2C it would not have collapsed any differently than it did and would NOT have free fell...so I don%27t know where this stuff is comming from.  |75
95|13|i agree|riotbabe||00:11:51|07/09/2002|while i wish this discussion could be kept civil%2C all hope of that is gone.%0D%0A%0D%0A2much%2C i am not doubting your engineering background%2C or even you proficiency. but as one engineer %28in training%2C admittedly%29 to another%2C it just seems like you are using big words to intimidate people into not arguing with you.%0D%0A%0D%0Awhat does mass density have to do with anything%3F %0D%0A%0D%0Ado you really think that changes in air pressure %28due to heat%2C i am guessing%29 would be appreciable%3F%0D%0A%0D%0Ai won%27t respond to any posts with any confrontational language%2C but if you could answer%2C i would certainly listen....|81
98|14|I am silly%2C but|2muchbs||01:02:23|07/09/2002|You dont know how mass density of the structures materials could have an effect%3F I did not say that local pressure changes would have been of great importance%2C I was simply stating it as another variable that is not taken into account. Far to many know it alls are claiming to have a clue when in fact its clearly apparent they dont. It usually takes about 10 words to know they are full of crap. That is why I think the DU should except credentials discretely and give a icon to people showing what area they are experts in. I dont doubt your an engineer%2C and would be greatful if you were%2C but I have to wonder why you have to ask me why mass density would make a difference. In second grade I knew that a feather fell to earth much slower than a piece of lead of the very same shape. I was also an Architect way back when I worked for Parker Hannifin Aerospace in Irvine Ca %2C1981. That was before I went back to school to become an Aeronautical engineer%2C thanks to Parker for that. I have worked with many architects in my own bussines since%2C and although they certainly deserve much respect%2C I get very pissed when they say%2C %22pull one column and the structures would collapse.%22 That kind of anology does a diservice to everybody. Architects included. I will never claim to be a writer%2C or a political anybody%2C or any other thing that I am no good at%2C so I get a little bit ticked when so many idiots claim to know more about my areas just because they have common sense. If you would like to have a very open minded discussion about what happened%2C engineer to engineer%2C I would appreciate that. Nor will I bad mouth. I have to go back on the road for another week%2C and if I can stomach the DU anymore when I get back I will look for you. Thanks. %0D%0A%0D%0ABill|95
105|15|For example...|chascarrillo||05:20:49|07/09/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jul-09-02 AT 05:27 AM (ET)[/font][p]... ack%2C nevermind. I%27m not an %22expert%22.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fhome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejlhouk%2Fbanhumancloning.jpg%5B%2Ffont%5D|98
112|15|Oh Ok.|vincent_vega||10:59:23|07/09/2002|%22You dont know how mass density of the structures materials could have an effect%3F I did not say that local pressure changes would have been of great importance%2C I was simply stating it as another variable that is not taken into account. Far to many know it alls are claiming to have a clue when in fact its clearly apparent they dont. It usually takes about 10 words to know they are full of crap. %22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A Soooo the building free fell Did it%3F  And the MASS DENSITY of the materials%2C and LOCAL PRESSURE CHANGES ment the debris cloud fell much quicker than the free falling building....Is that what you are saying%3F%3F%3F%3F  What do you take me for.  I am not an engineer BUT I do deal with interior and exterior balistics%2C and realize that NO %22local pressure changes%22 would create the effect we saw.  Get real. |98
71|10|The proof by Jerry Russell%2C Ph.D.|targetpractice||13:08:11|07/05/2002|%5Bb%5DHere%27s my response to this author%27s proof...%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5D%22The proof. According to the law of gravity%2C it is possible to calculate the time it takes for an object to fall a given distance. The equation is H%3D%281%2F2%29at2%2C where H is the height%2C a is the acceleration of gravity %2810 meters per second squared%29 and t is time in seconds. Plug in the height of the building at 1350 feet %28411 meters%29 and we get 9 seconds. That is just about the length of time it took for the very top of the World Trade Center to fall to the street below. According to all reports%2C the whole thing was over in just about ten seconds.%22%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5D9 seconds is not the same as %22just about ten seconds%22 and this significant lack of precision alone is enough to discredit this thought experiment. Furthermore%2C how did the author measure the collapse%3F What reference point on the building was tracked%3F How was that reference point tracked and timed all the way to the ground despite the visual obstruction from the debris%3F Did that reference point make it 1350 feet %28all the way to the ground%29 or did it come to rest on top of the 10-story pile of debris%3F There is no credibility in this method due to a complete absence of accurate data%2C and therefore there is no validity to the conclusion.%0D%0A%0D%0AFurthermore%2C as vincent_vega points out%2C debris can be plainly seen freefalling away from the building well ahead of the collapse. Therefore%2C it should be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer that the collapse happened at rate slower than freefall.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5D%22Yet this %28within a small tolerance%29 is what we would expect to find if there had been a controlled demolition%2C because the explosions below really do leave the upper stories completely unsupported. Like the Road Runner after he runs off the edge of the cliff%2C the entire building pauses a moment%2C then goes straight down.%22%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DI don%27t believe comparisons to Looney Toons%27 characters and situations represent valid scientific method.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5D%22Any kind of viscous process or friction process should have slowed the whole thing down. Like dropping a lead ball into a vat of molasses%2C or dropping a feather into the air%2C gravitational acceleration cannot achieve its full effect if it is fighting any opposing force.%22%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DAm I to imagine a lead ball the size of a pea dropped into a bathtub of molasses%3F Or%2C a lead bowling ball dropped onto a pint of molasses%3F Because%2C I would imagine very different results in each case. And%2C of course%2C a feather is %22designed%22 to provide maximal resistance while falling through air. So neither of these examples really predicts anything about the resistance involved in the WTC collapse.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5D%22In the case of the World Trade Center%2C the intact building below should have at least braked the fall of the upper stories. This did not happen. There was no measurable friction at all.%22%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DFirst%2C the WTC was mostly open space not molasses. Remember the entire building collapsed to a 10-story pile. The author doesn%27t provide any evidence supporting his opinions about what the building should do in %22braking%22 the collapse.%0D%0A%0D%0ASecond%2C the author admits to significant friction in the very first paragraph -- enough to slow the building collapse by %22just about%22 11%25 %28from 9 seconds to %22just about%22 10 seconds%29. That assumes his measurements are close to being correct%2C but I%27m not willing to bet on that. Anyways%2C the author must ignore his own results in order to make a conclusion supporting controlled demolition. Amazingly%2C he does just that%21%21%21%0D%0A%0D%0AFinally%2C you can plainly see in the videos that interior of the building collapsed before outer steel frame. This fact is most evident by observing the transmitter sink into the roof before any observable motion by the steel frame. This author doesn%27t seem to notice this fact%2C and seems to assume the building floors dropped like records on a turntable. This whole concept of %22floors below collapsing before floors above%22 makes no sense. The author%27s observations are easily explainable without controlled demolition or cartoon gravity once he realizes that the interior of the building collapsed ahead of the outer framework.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5D%22This proves controlled demolition.%22%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DThis proves nothing at all%2C but let%27s keep reading...%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5D%22In this case%2C the intact structure below would exert an upward force on the base of the upper story portion of the building %28the part that has been broken loose%29%2C while any asymmetry would allow the force of gravity to work uninhibited on the tip of the skyscraper. Thus%2C the top section of the skyscraper would tip and fall sideways.%22%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DWhat magical upward force is Jerry Russell%2C Ph.D. talking about here%3F This is a new one to me%2C but now I suppose I understand why rooftops are needed -- in order to contain that upward force and keep the buildings grounded. It%27s probably a good thing that Jerry left engineering to pursue a doctorate in Psychology.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5D%22If it did not tip%2C it would have ground straight down through the building below. The gravitational potential energy of the upper stories would be coupled into the frame below%2C beginning to destroy it. The frame below would deflect elastically%2C absorbing energy in the process of deflecting. At weak points%2C the metal structure would break%2C but the elastic energy absorbed into the entire frame would not be available to do more destruction. Instead%2C it would be dissipated in vibration%2C acoustic noise and heat. Eventually this process would grind to a halt%2C because the gravitational potential energy of a skyscraper is nowhere near sufficient to destroy its own frame.%22%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DThat%2C however%2C is exactly what happened.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A|65
93|2|well.....|riotbabe||23:50:16|07/08/2002|say for a moment that it WAS just the structural supports giving out... it would have the same effeect as the implosion of a builing. after all%2C implosions are engineered by blowing out the supports.%0D%0A|23
96|3|From the mouths of babes|targetpractice||00:26:41|07/09/2002|Don%27t try that voodoo logic here. %3A%29|93
107|3|say for a moment that it WAS just the structural supports giving out...|plaguepuppy||06:59:44|07/09/2002|But you have to explain how and why the structural supports would suddenly lose all their strength.  The abrupt and symmetrical collapse means that essentially %2Aall%2A the vertical load-bearing structures have to fail at the same instant.  It can be definitively shown that the amout of heat available cannot come close to doing this - despite close-up pictures of flames coming out of window early on%2C it is clear that most of the jet fuel burns off very quickly and that office furnishings are a poor second.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s never too late for civility%2C especially when a betrayal as vast as 9%2F11 demands our best efforts.%0D%0A%0D%0APup|93
72|1|Smoldering office fire%3F|vincent_vega||17:04:27|07/05/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jul-05-02 AT 05:06 PM (ET)[/font][p]  Here%27s some pics...you be the judge.%0D%0A%5Bjpg%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.evil-products.com%2Fimages%2F3%2Fwtc017.jpg%5DFire1%5B%2Fjpg%5D%0D%0A%5Bjpg%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.evil-products.com%2Fimages%2F3%2Fwtc021.jpg%5DFire2%5B%2Fjpg%5D%0D%0A%5Bjpg%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.evil-products.com%2Fimages%2F3%2Fwtc024.jpg%5DFire3%5B%2Fjpg%5D%0D%0A%5Bjpg%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.evil-products.com%2Fimages%2F3%2Fwtc050.jpg%5DFire4%5B%2Fjpg%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AHere%27s pics of the debris plume.  Note how it is traveling aprox twice as fast as the %22free falling building.%22%0D%0A%5Burl%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.evil-products.com%2Fimages%2F3%2Fwtccrash13.jpg%5B%2Furl%5D%0D%0A%5Burl%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fcommunity.webshots.com%2Fphoto%2F35588492%2F35651140KFJApR%5B%2Furl%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A|0
73|2|Exactly as I have described|2muchbs||20:38:27|07/05/2002|Where oxygen is present at the entrances%2C fire%2C incandescent carbon particles are visible. So what. How does this supply the required levels of heat energy to the inner structure%3F Sure these pics show fire that%27s certainly capable of snuffing out a human life%2C but enough to provide the trigger for collapse%3F No way. Where are the glowing supports%3F %0D%0A Here are some links for you. Soon enough the people that are not willing to believe explosives were used will be in the minority. Target%2C the empty space argument holds no weight%2C sorry. Dead airspace is no indicator of strength%2C or lack of it. %0D%0A%0D%0ABill%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.tms.org%2Fpubs%2Fjournals%2FJOM%2F0112%2FEagar%2FEagar-0112.html %0D%0A %0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.rense.com%2Fgeneral17%2Feyewitnessreportspersist.htm%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.americanfreepress.net%2F10_22_01%2FSome_Survivors_Say__Bombs_Expl%2Fsome_survivors_say__bombs_expl.html%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.cam.net.uk%2Fhome%2Fnimmann%2Fpeace%2Fexplosions.htm%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.neopolitanonline.com%2Fvenom%2FEyewitness%2520Reports%2520Bombs%2520At%2520WTC%2520Collapse.html%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fserendipity.magnet.ch%2Fwot%2Fexplosives.htm%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.konformist.com%2F911%2Fbombs.htm|72
76|3|i was at GROUND ZERO today...|ewing2001||03:15:30|07/06/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jul-06-02 AT 03:31 AM (ET)[/font][p]...after some months again.%0D%0A%0D%0ANow you%27re able to see it from 3 sides.%0D%0AI must confess%2C that i felt a bit sick to watch on it with all these tourists%2C but i was looking for some investigative details.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe 4th side is not allowed to enter.%0D%0AIt%27s the side of Vesey Street %28on the other side%21%29 %0D%0ABuilding 7 incl. the CIA office %28constructed by former OEM Jerry Hauer%29 used to be there and it%27s where ex-FBI agent Barry Mawn classified the famous %22passpord in the rubble%22.%0D%0A%0D%0AFrom all other three sides you can%27t really look into the %22hole%22 of Building 7%2C which also collapsed on that day between 4 and 5 PM.%0D%0A%0D%0AI tried to reach Building 7 from the other side%2C which also was impossible. Then two blocks further i tried it too.%0D%0A%0D%0AFrom that part it was closed as well and it was the only part which was watched by one Feds guy with various buttons and  black sunglasses. %0D%0A%0D%0AI asked him where to get a permission to enter this part and he he told me to contact the Port Authority.%0D%0A%0D%0AThen he got a bit grumpy when i asked him why he was sitting there.%0D%0AHe answered%2C %22that%27s none of your business%22. %0D%0AHe later tried to be informative again but i already decided to leave this area again.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m still wondering about some other facts.%0D%0AThe park next to One Plaza Building %28right hand of Church Street%29 doesn%27t exist anymore.%0D%0AI%27m not sure%2C if it burned down.%0D%0A%0D%0ABoth buildings next to B7 haven%27t been destroyed%2C but are still closed%2C one of the Buildings is one Court.%0D%0A%0D%0AI will try to get an old map of that area again.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnyway...it%27s still weired to visit GROUND ZERO%2C i lived and worked 4%2C 5 blocks from there and the vibes are still uncool.%0D%0A%0D%0AI have to agree%2C it%27s holy ground for me%2C too.%0D%0A%0D%0AI would get upset%2C if they%27re gonna build some crap there.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A  %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DGROUND ZERO Forum NYC%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.ourDNA.org%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.delphiforums.com%2Fground_zero2001%0D%0A%0D%0ASupporter of the 911-Scepticism Movement NYC%2C Washington%2C San Francisco%2C Ohio etc...%0D%0A%0D%0ASupport public LIHOP-evidence now%2C SETUP later%21%0D%0A%0D%0AOfficial investigative journalist for http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unansweredquestions.org%0D%0A%0D%0AThe last Washington-911 skepticism forum was on June 10th in National Press Center including Julie Sweeney %28NYC%29%2C J. Michael Springmann %28ex- Jeddah %22CIA%22-Consulate%2C where 10-15 visas for the 911 hijackers had been filed%2CLorna Brett FAA %2F Airline Accountability%2C Mary Schiavo %28bio%29%2C Esq. FAA%2FAirline Accountability%2C Michael Ruppert %28copvcia%29%2C Tom Flocco %2891 insider trading%29 and Air Defenses%2FNORAD%2FPentagon-Specialist John Judge etc... %0D%0A%0D%0AThe last NYC- 911-skepticism forum was on May 3rd to 5th in NYC%2C 135 west 42nd St. %28bet. 6th %26 7th Ave%29 at Chashama Theater%2C Times Square.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt included also a panel on May 4th%2C streamed live over the net with panelists from DU%2C guerrillanews%2C GZ%2C Alex Jones.com and a live phone session with Oswald Le Winter %28Portugal%2C Ex-USA%29. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe last SF-911-skepticism forum was a rally in front of the office of Diane Feinstein in January 2002.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe 911-sceptic contents%3A%0D%0Aa%29 geopolitical background %28carlyle%2C harken%2C UNOCAL%2C%0D%0ACentGas%2C DynCorp%2C ENRON Broadband%2FTSI%2FTaliban%2C%0D%0AHalliburton etc..%29%0D%0Ab%29 investigative %2B scientific oddities%2C prior knowledge%2Fearly warnings%2C details for a set-up incl. LIHOP etc..%0D%0Ac%29 current political situation%2C historical comparisons%0D%0AProj. Northwoods%2C Bushistory%2C Ashcrofts%0D%0Adatabase%2Freading lists%2C threads of week%2C lies of war%2C yuppie fascism%2C%0D%0Acivil liberties%2Farrestments etc.. %0D%0Ad%29 political and media analysis plus current support%0D%0Afor 911-investigation %28US congress%3A McKinney%2C Stark%2C%0D%0Aplus opinions Ron Paul etc..%2C AtlantaPoll%2C%0D%0A911-petition with 11000 sigs%2C diff. books from Moore%0D%0Ato Greg Palast%29%2C 911-website projects%2C independent%0D%0Amedia portals etc..%0D%0Ae%29 Insider-oddities %2Bdetails%2C insider-infos%2C last%0D%0Aminute topics%2C %22breaking news%22...%5B%2Ffont%5D|73
77|4|map|ewing2001||03:39:52|07/06/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jul-06-02 AT 04:06 AM (ET)[/font][p]http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lebensaspekte.de%2Fgroundzero%2Fimages%2Fwtc800.gif%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m still not really satisfied with this map%2C %0D%0Abecause they left out all buildings on the right side of Church Street and some on Vesey Street.%0D%0A%0D%0A3 of these buildings on Church Street had been closed for a long while.%0D%0A%2221st century%22 %28a famous cloth store%2C reopened since some weeks%29%2C%0D%0Athe Hilton Tower %28still closed%29 and another huge tower %28another store i forgot%29and the small park just to the south of One%0D%0ALiberty Plaza %28burned down%3F%2Ci only saw some stairs there today%29%0D%0A%0D%0APics of this park at the time before the 2nd crash i found here%3A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.geocities.com%2Fthomas_hobbs%2Fpics%2Fwtc%2F%0D%0A%0D%0ABut on this map you can see which side is still closed %28but would be easy to reach. %0D%0AVesey Street side%2C which included Building 7.%0D%0ABut there is a small%2C unused way next to the entry for the construction workers%29 and absolutely free of rubble%21%0D%0A %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DGROUND ZERO Forum NYC%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.ourDNA.org%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.delphiforums.com%2Fground_zero2001%0D%0A%0D%0ASupporter of the 911-Scepticism Movement NYC%2C Washington%2C San Francisco%2C Ohio etc...%0D%0A%0D%0ASupport public LIHOP-evidence now%2C SETUP later%21%0D%0A%0D%0AOfficial investigative journalist for http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unansweredquestions.org%0D%0A%0D%0AThe last Washington-911 skepticism forum was on June 10th in National Press Center including Julie Sweeney %28NYC%29%2C J. Michael Springmann %28ex- Jeddah %22CIA%22-Consulate%2C where 10-15 visas for the 911 hijackers had been filed%2CLorna Brett FAA %2F Airline Accountability%2C Mary Schiavo %28bio%29%2C Esq. FAA%2FAirline Accountability%2C Michael Ruppert %28copvcia%29%2C Tom Flocco %2891 insider trading%29 and Air Defenses%2FNORAD%2FPentagon-Specialist John Judge etc... %0D%0A%0D%0AThe last NYC- 911-skepticism forum was on May 3rd to 5th in NYC%2C 135 west 42nd St. %28bet. 6th %26 7th Ave%29 at Chashama Theater%2C Times Square.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt included also a panel on May 4th%2C streamed live over the net with panelists from DU%2C guerrillanews%2C GZ%2C Alex Jones.com and a live phone session with Oswald Le Winter %28Portugal%2C Ex-USA%29. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe last SF-911-skepticism forum was a rally in front of the office of Diane Feinstein in January 2002.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe 911-sceptic contents%3A%0D%0Aa%29 geopolitical background %28carlyle%2C harken%2C UNOCAL%2C%0D%0ACentGas%2C DynCorp%2C ENRON Broadband%2FTSI%2FTaliban%2C%0D%0AHalliburton etc..%29%0D%0Ab%29 investigative %2B scientific oddities%2C prior knowledge%2Fearly warnings%2C details for a set-up incl. LIHOP etc..%0D%0Ac%29 current political situation%2C historical comparisons%0D%0AProj. Northwoods%2C Bushistory%2C Ashcrofts%0D%0Adatabase%2Freading lists%2C threads of week%2C lies of war%2C yuppie fascism%2C%0D%0Acivil liberties%2Farrestments etc.. %0D%0Ad%29 political and media analysis plus current support%0D%0Afor 911-investigation %28US congress%3A McKinney%2C Stark%2C%0D%0Aplus opinions Ron Paul etc..%2C AtlantaPoll%2C%0D%0A911-petition with 11000 sigs%2C diff. books from Moore%0D%0Ato Greg Palast%29%2C 911-website projects%2C independent%0D%0Amedia portals etc..%0D%0Ae%29 Insider-oddities %2Bdetails%2C insider-infos%2C last%0D%0Aminute topics%2C %22breaking news%22...%5B%2Ffont%5D|76
79|5|Curious|Rex||03:51:41|07/06/2002|Is 7wtc and 6 joined together%3F How bout all the other wtc buildings...are any still standing%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fmembers.aol.com%2Fkillerkhan1948%2Fimages%2Ftybob.jpg%5B%2Ffont%5D|77
78|4|I%27m really interested in the site below ground|Rex||03:47:47|07/06/2002|From what I%27ve seen on maps the below ground area %28I believe it was a hotel and some shopping malls plus a subway line%3F%29 is huge and it would be interesting to know what it looks like. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe FBI guy...why is he posted there%3F Is there still a security risk in that rubble%3F %0D%0A%0D%0AThe infamous %22passport%22 that was found...why was it classified%3F Maybe you can ask your FBI friend.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fmembers.aol.com%2Fkillerkhan1948%2Fimages%2Ftybob.jpg%5B%2Ffont%5D|76
80|3|Interesting articles...but hardly convincing.|vincent_vega||12:12:57|07/08/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jul-08-02 AT 12:15 PM (ET)[/font][p] A few choice tibbits...%0D%0A%0D%0A%22The mainstream media is ignoring eyewitness accounts of bombs that exploded inside the World Trade Center before the collapse of the Twin Towers.%22%0D%0A%0D%0A %5Bb%5DQuite a few people in the buildings during the start of the collapse reported hearing and feeling a %22bomb%22 detonating.  I have no doubt that the initial collapse of one floor on another would certainly qualify as a %22detonation%22 with the conversion of all that potential energy.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Demolition experts say that towers are the most difficult buildings to bring down in a controlled manner. A tower tends to fall like a tree%2C unless the direction of its fall is controlled by directional charges. The WTC towers %22smokestacked%22 neatly%2C falling within the boundaries of their foundations. %22%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DNO%2C NOT%2C NIX.  The towers could never have %22fallen like a tree%22 Who are these experts%3F%3F%3F  There was NO %22smokestacking%22 at all...are these experts for real%3F%3F%3F%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22One of the first firefighters in the stricken second tower%2C Louie Cacchioli%2C 51%2C told People Weekly on Sept. 24%3A %22I was taking firefighters up in the elevator to the 24th floor to get in position to evacuate workers. On the last trip up a bomb went off. We think there were bombs set in the building.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DAgain the initial collapse.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Ten days after the attack%2C following criticism of his initial remarks%2C Romero did an about-face in his analysis of the collapse%2C %22Certainly the fire is what caused the building to fail%2C%22 he told the Journal on Sept. 21.%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DRomero was the demolition guy who started all the bomb rumors%2C and the source given for most of your websites.  Guess he was visited by MIB huh%3F%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%22One way to distinguish the two is to note that if a second log is added to the fireplace%2C the temperature does not double%3B it stays roughly the same%2C but the size of the fire or the length of time the fire burns%2C or a combination of the two%2C doubles. Thus%2C the fact that there were 90%2C000 L of jet fuel on a few floors of the WTC does not mean that this was an unusually hot fire. The temperature of the fire at the WTC was not unusual%2C and it was most definitely not capable of melting steel. %22%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DThanks for the lesson. steel melting is not the issue%2C but steel buckling is.  The 90%2C000L of fuel spread over several floors means that the fire is widly dispersed and effecting a significant amount of load bearing structure simutaniously. In this case even a sub 1200 F fire would be devastating over an hour.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%22The maximum flame temperature increase for burning hydrocarbons %28jet fuel%29 in air is%2C thus%2C about 1%2C000%B0C%97hardly sufficient to melt steel at 1%2C500%B0C. %22%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5D1000 C %3D 1832 F well sufficient to weaken steel%2C especially when that steel is stressed.  %5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%22It is known that the WTC fire was a fuel-rich%2C diffuse flame as evidenced by the copious black smoke. Soot is generated by incompletely burned fuel%3B hence%2C the WTC fire was fuel rich%97hardly surprising with 90%2C000 L of jet fuel available. Factors such as flame volume and quantity of soot decrease the radiative heat loss in the fire%2C moving the temperature closer to the maximum of 1%2C000%B0C. However%2C it is highly unlikely that the steel at the WTC experienced temperatures above the 750%96800%B0C range.%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5D750-800C still equals 1382-1472 F%2C still PLENTY HOT.  %5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%22It is known that structural steel begins to soften around 425%B0C and loses about half of its strength at 650%B0C%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DAnswering their own question.%22%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%22early every large building has a redundant design that allows for loss of one primary structural member%2C such as a column. However%2C when multiple members fail%2C the shifting loads eventually overstress the adjacent members and the collapse occurs like a row of dominoes falling down. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe perimeter tube design of the WTC was highly redundant. It survived the loss of several exterior columns due to aircraft impact%2C but the ensuing fire led to other steel failures. Many structural engineers believe that the weak points%97the limiting factors on design allowables%97were the angle clips that held the floor joists between the columns on the perimeter wall and the core structure.%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5D Oh Oh...looks like your refererence is starting to come around to a certain POV.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%22As the joists on one or two of the most heavily burned floors gave way and the outer box columns began to bow outward%2C the floors above them also fell. The floor below %28with its 1%2C300 t design capacity%29 could not support the roughly 45%2C000 t of ten floors %28or more%29 above crashing down on these angle clips. This started the domino effect that caused the buildings to collapse within ten seconds%2C hitting bottom with an estimated speed of 200 km per hour. If it had been free fall%2C with no restraint%2C the collapse would have only taken eight seconds and would have impacted at 300 km%2Fh.1 It has been suggested that it was fortunate that the WTC did not tip over onto other buildings surrounding the area. There are several points that should be made. First%2C the building is not solid%3B it is 95 percent air and%2C hence%2C can implode onto itself. Second%2C there is no lateral load%2C even the impact of a speeding aircraft%2C which is sufficient to move the center of gravity one hundred feet to the side such that it is not within the base footprint of the structure. Third%2C given the near free-fall collapse%2C there was insufficient time for portions to attain significant lateral velocity. To summarize all of these points%2C a 500%2C000 t structure has too much inertia to fall in any direction other than nearly straight down. %22%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DAlas why it cannot tip...did you read these%3F%3F%3F%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22The World Trade Center was not defectively designed. No designer of the WTC anticipated%2C nor should have anticipated%2C a 90%2C000 L Molotov cocktail on one of the building floors. Skyscrapers are designed to support themselves for three hours in a fire even if the sprinkler system fails to operate. This time should be long enough to evacuate the occupants. The WTC towers lasted for one to two hours%97less than the design life%2C but only because the fire fuel load was so large. No normal office fires would fill 4%2C000 square meters of floor space in the seconds in which the WTC fire developed. Usually%2C the fire would take up to an hour to spread so uniformly across the width and breadth of the building. This was a very large and rapidly progressing fire %28very high heat but not unusually high temperature%29. %22%0D%0AAll from%3A  %5Burl%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.tms.org%2Fpubs%2Fjournals%2FJOM%2F0112%2FEagar%2FEagar-0112.html%5B%2Furl%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DSorry but this article agrees with me.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Burl%5D%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.konformist.com%2F911%2Fbombs.htm%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DOh and this is an %22expert%22 opinion........right. Seems to me that you only read what conforms with your opinion.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A|73
82|4|Offer this link again|Doc Paulie||12:39:37|07/08/2002|http%3A%2F%2Fstand77.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fpicture_frame.pl%0D%0A%0D%0ANice fireproofing%21 not.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe main interior beam spray painted with the date 4-2-92 is telling as it gets. A ten year old photo showing very compromised fireproofing. I would bet the condition only got worse from there.%0D%0A%0D%0ABased on these photos one can conclude the fireproofing was at the 50%25 workable range a decade prior. Thus the structures lasted half what they were originally rated. They then collpased as the fire ratings said they would. No mystery here. The ratings give a protection range and after that%2C anything is possible including complete collapse of the structure. That reality is why the cover-up.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhole bunch of people do not want it known the fireproofing was defective. They do not want it known the water system in the area defective. They do not want it known some knew the odds of collpase and didn%27t bother alerting NYFD%2FNYPD to as much and basically sentenced hundreds of first responders to death. All this fumbling after the lesson of the first incident in 1993 oes not help them any either.%0D%0A%0D%0AIf they could%2C they would love to find evidence of Bombs. Would make their lives much easier. But unfortunately no real evidence will be forthcoming.%0D%0A%0D%0A %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5BA HREF%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stand77.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fclinks%2Fmain.cgi%22%5Dthe 9-11 Files because you have questions%5B%2FA%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D|80
84|5|6%2B7|ewing2001||13:08:31|07/08/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jul-08-02 AT 01:13 PM (ET)[/font][p]It%27s the first time that i saw on a map that Building 7 and 6 had been connected. Maybe they had been connected with an underground way%3F%0D%0AI can%27t remember anymore. It%27s strange%2C but i was often at Century21 or shopped in the Twin Towers%2C but the connection to Building 7 is still like a dark picture for me.%0D%0AI can%27t remember it.%0D%0A%0D%0ABetween both buildings %28B7 %2B B6%29 is Vesey Street.%0D%0A %0D%0AI read that a small bridge was destroyed%2C but that was between the roof of building 5 and %22.....%22%3F%28Have to take a look in report agin%29%0D%0A%0D%0AAs far as i know Building 3 and 5 had been destroyed by demolition. No further explanation. 1%2C 2 and 7 collapsed as we know. %0D%0ABuilding 4%3F Maybe controlled demolition%2C too. Dunno. Must be.%0D%0ACan%27t remember any article%2C where these buildings just burned down. As far as i know%2C they had been destroyed only a bit%2C especially Building 5 %28American Express Building%29. %0D%0AOnly the roof collapsed a bit %28officially because of some debris%29%0D%0A%0D%0AI guess%2C the FEMA or dunno just decided to destroy the smaller building%2C because they had no real function anymore.%0D%0AIf they had to ask Silverstein for that%3F I dunno.%0D%0AI have no idea about the property rights of 3%2C 4%2C 5%2C 6.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AThe passpord was classified%2C because it belonged officially to one of the hijackers from the plane%2C Satam Al Suquami.%0D%0A%0D%0AI will ask the FBI one day%2C if i have the chance to do it from a save environment%2C i will definetely not ask this FBI security guy from behind B7.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut i asked some NYPDs%2C if they remembered the passpord story.%0D%0AI showed them the article and asked why Vesey Street is still closed. Because of national security. I was a bit sarcastic to be honest%2C but the NYPDS reacted very politely as usual in NYC%2C so i had no success to get any convincing answer.%0D%0A%0D%0AI will try to find a high building to take a look into the angle of the hole of former Building 7. Maybe %22century21%22 might help. Hilton is still closed.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DGROUND ZERO Forum NYC%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.ourDNA.org%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.delphiforums.com%2Fground_zero2001%0D%0A%0D%0ASupporter of the 911-Scepticism Movement NYC%2C Washington%2C San Francisco%2C Ohio etc...%0D%0A%0D%0ASupport public LIHOP-evidence now%2C SETUP later%21%0D%0A%0D%0AOfficial investigative journalist for http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unansweredquestions.org%0D%0A%0D%0AThe last Washington-911 skepticism forum was on June 10th in National Press Center including Julie Sweeney %28NYC%29%2C J. Michael Springmann %28ex- Jeddah %22CIA%22-Consulate%2C where 10-15 visas for the 911 hijackers had been filed%2C Lorna Brett FAA%2FAirline Accountability%2C Mary Schiavo%2C Esq. FAA%2FAirline Accountability%2C Michael Ruppert %28copvcia%29%2C Tom Flocco %28911- insider trading story%29 and John Judge%2C Air Defenses%2FNORAD%2FPentagon-Specialist etc... %0D%0A%0D%0AThe last NYC- 911-skepticism forum was on May 3rd to 5th in NYC%2C 135 west 42nd St. %28bet. 6th %26 7th Ave%29 at Chashama Theater%2C Times Square.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt included also a panel on May 4th%2C streamed live over the net with panelists from DU%2C guerrillanews%2C GZ%2C Alex Jones.com and a live phone session with Oswald Le Winter %28Portugal%2C Ex-USA%29. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe last SF-911-skepticism forum was a rally in front of the office of Diane Feinstein in January 2002.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe 911-sceptic contents%3A%0D%0Aa%29 geopolitical background %28Carlyle%2C Harken%2C UNOCAL%2C%0D%0ACentGas%2C DynCorp%2C ENRON Broadband%2FTSI%2FTaliban%2C%0D%0AHalliburton%2C BAe%2C Northrup etc..%29%0D%0Ab%29 investigative %2B scientific oddities%2C prior knowledge%2Fearly warnings%2C details for a set-up incl. LIHOP etc..%0D%0Ac%29 current political situation%2C historical comparisons%0D%0AProj. Northwoods%2C Bushistory%2C Ashcrofts%0D%0Adatabase%2Freading lists%2C threads of week%2C lies of war%2C yuppie fascism%2C%0D%0Acivil liberties%2Farrestments etc.. %0D%0Ad%29 political and media analysis plus current support%0D%0Afor 911-investigation %28US congress%3A McKinney%2C Stark%2C%0D%0Aplus opinions Ron Paul etc..%2C AtlantaPoll%2C%0D%0A911-petition with 11000 sigs%2C diff. books from Moore%0D%0Ato Greg Palast%29%2C 911-website projects%2C independent%0D%0Amedia portals etc..%0D%0Ae%29 Insider-oddities %2Bdetails%2C insider-infos%2C last%0D%0Aminute topics%2C %22breaking news%22...%5B%2Ffont%5D|82
85|6|bridge collapse|ajw18||14:35:09|07/08/2002|%0D%0Ado you maybe mean the bridge%2Fwalkway that went from Tower 2 %28%3F%29 to the winter gardens%3F pretty sure that was gone. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22I was trying to get out of harm%27s way.%22%0D%0AGeorge W. Bush%2C L.A. Times%2C speaking of his actions on September 11%2C 2001.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Because I love my country%2C because I am a patriot%2C and because the American people deserve the truth ... I won%27t shut up until the full and unvarnished truth is placed before the American people.%22%0D%0ACynthia McKinney%2C May 16%2C 2002%0D%0A%0D%0AMy websites%3A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.1918redsox.com%0D%0A%26%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.pedro45.net%5B%2Ffont%5D|84
106|4|A few choice tibbits...|plaguepuppy||06:50:27|07/09/2002|Is that Officer Tibbits%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ABut seriously%2C this %22debunking%22 is shot through with emphatic assertions of utter rubbish%2C e.g.%3A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DNO%2C NOT%2C NIX. The towers could never have %22fallen like a tree%22 Who are these experts%3F%3F%3F There was NO%0D%0A      %22smokestacking%22 at all...are these experts for real%3F%3F%3F%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AWould you care to explain exactly why it couldn%27t have toppled like a tree%2C or cite one example of a non-demolition collapse of a tall building that spontaneously %22pancaked%22%3F  And why would Mark Loizeaux%2C president of Controlled Demolition Inc. and probably the leading authority on the subject%2C state as follows%3A%0D%0A%5Bb%5D%22Observing the collapses on television news%2C Loizeaux says the 1%2C362-ft-tall south tower%2C which was hit at about the 60th floor%2C failed much as one would fell a tree. That is what was expected%2C says Loizeaux. But the 1%2C368-ft-tall north tower%2C similarly hit but at about the 90th floor%2C %22telescoped%2C%22 says Loizeaux. It failed vertically%2C he adds%2C rather than falling over. %22I don%27t have a clue%2C%22 says Loizeaux%2C regarding the cause of the telescoping. %5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0ANotice that he had only seen the beginning of the WTC-2 collapse at this point%2C and assumed that the upper floors had continued to topple as they first are seen to.  When we consider that this toppling does not continue as he assumed%2C that instead the top section suddenly began to collapse on itself and at the same time settle straight down into the building below%2C it becomes much harder to reconcile.  How could the top collapse on itself after starting into %28more-or-less%29 free-fall%3F  What happens to the angular momentum of that huge %7E50 storey block that has begun to rotate about its center of mass%3F  What happens to the compressive load-bearing capacity of the very sturdy central column array%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AAn answer to any of these questions - a reasoned%2C non-snide one preferably - would go a long way toward convincing me that you are willing to put aside preconcieved ideas and offer more than blank assertions in all-caps.  There are enough genuine problems in reconciling the observed features of the collapse with basic physics to be worth a civil discussion.%0D%0A%0D%0AP.Pup%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.whitehouse.org%2Fgiftshop%2Fimages%2Fbarcode.gif%0D%0A%5Bfont size%3D1%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fhome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking|80
144|5|Sorry Pup%2C missed this one.|vincent_vega||16:28:00|07/11/2002|  This thread is getting kinda hard to follow.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Would you care to explain exactly why it couldn%27t have toppled like a tree%2C or cite one example of a non-demolition collapse of a tall building that spontaneously %22pancaked%22%3F %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DIt has been suggested that it was fortunate that the WTC did not tip over onto other buildings surrounding the area. There are several points that should be made. First%2C the building is not solid%3B it is 95 percent air and%2C hence%2C can implode onto itself. Second%2C there is no lateral load%2C even the impact of a speeding aircraft%2C which is sufficient to move the center of gravity one hundred feet to the side such that it is not within the base footprint of the structure. Third%2C given the near free-fall collapse%2C there was insufficient time for portions to attain significant lateral velocity. To summarize all of these points%2C a 500%2C000 t structure has too much inertia to fall in any direction other than nearly straight down. %5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AFrom%3A%5Burl%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.tms.org%2Fpubs%2Fjournals%2FJOM%2F0112%2FEagar%2FEagar-0112.html%5B%2Furl%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DNOVA%3A The Twin Towers collapsed essentially straight down. Was there any chance they could have tipped over%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AEagar%3A It%27s really not possible in this case. In our normal experience%2C we deal with small things%2C say%2C a glass of water%2C that might tip over%2C and we don%27t realize how far something has to tip proportional to its base. The base of the World Trade Center was 208 feet on a side%2C and that means it would have had to have tipped at least 100 feet to one side in order to move its center of gravity from the center of the building out beyond its base. That would have been a tremendous amount of bending. In a building that is mostly air%2C as the World Trade Center was%2C there would have been buckling columns%2C and it would have come straight down before it ever tipped over.%5B%2Fb%5D  %0D%0A%0D%0AFrom%3A %5Burl%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbs.org%2Fwgbh%2Fnova%2Fwtc%2Fcollapse.html%5B%2Furl%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AVan Romero%2C vice president for research at New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology that started the bomb rumors has since gone back on that theory...I was good enough to include that in my last post.  %0D%0A%0D%0ABut I guess you know better huh%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A|106
149|6|%22But I guess you know better huh%3F%22 ...Sorry%2C but actually I do%21|plaguepuppy||09:25:01|07/12/2002|I%27ve been hoping someone would bring up this particular quote which is sorely in need of debunking - but I also agree that this thread has gotten unwieldy%2C so I%27ll start a new thread this evening to discuss it in more depth.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut in a nutshell%3A %22mostly air%22 is bullshit.  Much more like a very sturdy tree with a large thin-walled tube around it.   We are being asked to belive that the tree could collapse straight down%2C telescoping into itself%2C just because there is a lot of air between it and the outer tube.  After all atoms are mostly empty space and they seldom implode.  That central column is one freaky-strong damn tree%2C designed to withstand a compressive load of at least 5x the entire weight of the building.%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fhome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2Fwsb%2Fmedia%2F56016%2Fsite1063.jpg%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dred%5D%5Bb%5D%22Mostly air%22%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dblack%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AMore to follow...%0D%0A%0D%0APlagupuppy%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fhome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2Fwsb%2Fmedia%2F56016%2Fsite1050.jpg%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont size%3D0%5DAnother pic of the north face of WTC-1.  Note the trails of debris flying %5Bb%5Dupward%5B%2Fb%5D from the right side of the upper section.|144
150|7|Debunking the engineers that designed the building|vincent_vega||11:04:36|07/12/2002|%22But in a nutshell%3A %22mostly air%22 is bullshit. Much more like a very sturdy tree with a large thin-walled tube around it. We are being asked to belive that the tree could collapse straight down%2C telescoping into itself%2C just because there is a lot of air between it and the outer tube. After all atoms are mostly empty space and they seldom implode. That central column is one freaky-strong damn tree%2C designed to withstand a compressive load of at least 5x the entire weight of the building.%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A %5Bb%5DWhat are your credentials again%3F  Because this post shows your total lack of understanding of what occurs when a building collapses%2C especially one as large as the WTC towers. I am not even going to go into how off base that paragraph is.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A|149
108|4|Funny thing about Jet Fuel|Ameridansk||07:40:44|07/09/2002|%22Thanks for the lesson. steel melting is not the issue%2C but steel buckling is. The 90%2C000L of fuel spread over several floors means that the fire is widly dispersed and effecting a significant amount of load bearing structure simutaniously. In this case even a sub 1200 F fire would be devastating over an hour.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AHow about a sub 149 degree C fire%3F  You see%2C liquid jet fuel has quite a low boiling point.  For example%2C this brand of Jet Fuel%3A%0D%0A%0D%0AProduct and Company Identification %0D%0AProduct Name%3A Engen Jet A-1 %0D%0ASupplier%3A Engen Petroleum Limited %0D%0AUpdated%3A 08 December 1998 %0D%0ACAS Number%3A %288008-20-6%29 %0D%0AUN Number%3A UN1223 %0D%0A%0D%0ANote the boiling point%3A%0D%0A%0D%0APhysical and Chemical Properties %0D%0ATypical physical characteristics are given below.   Consult Product Data Sheet for specific details.%0D%0A%0D%0AAppearance%3A Liquid %0D%0AColour%3A Clear %0D%0AOdour%3A Hydrocarbon %0D%0AOdour threshold%3A NA %0D%0ApH%3A NA %0D%0A%5Bb%5DBoiling point %B0C%3A %3E149 %5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0AMelting point %B0C%3A NA %0D%0AFlash point %B0C%3A %3E38 %28ASTM D-93%29 %0D%0AFlammability%3A NA %0D%0AAuto flammability%3A NE %0D%0AExplosive properties%3A NA %0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.engenchemicals.com%2Fcontent%2Fprod%2Fmsds%2Faviation%2Fjet_a1.htm%0D%0A%0D%0AOr try this brand of jet fuel%3A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.hess.com%2Fabout%2Fmsds%2FJetA_0325_clr.pdf%0D%0A%0D%0AReally%2C look at ANY type of jet fuel and your idea of a fire anywhere close to 1000 degrees%2C based on uncontained jet fuel is a FANTASY.  It denies laws of physics.  %0D%0A%0D%0AAn uncontained jet fuel fire will always face a serious problem.  The hotter it gets%2C the quicker it will go out.  Face it.%0D%0A  %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22 I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country. %22%0D%0A--Thomas Jefferson%2C 3rd US president 1801-1809%0D%0A%0D%0A%22 Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of State and corporate power.%22%0D%0A--Benito Mussolini %281883-1945%29%2C Fascist Dictator of Italy%0D%0A%0D%0A%22America continues to remain the enigma it has always been - a curiously insular people administered by a pathologically meddlesome%2C promiscuous government.%22%0D%0A--Arundhati Roy%2C author and activist%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|80
109|5|Blazing saddles|plaguepuppy||08:54:24|07/09/2002|Actually the %22%3E148%22 is a little ambiguous%2C but your 2nd link gives a BP range of 140-300 C.%2C so by 300 even the trace amount of higher-BP components of the kerosene mix will be gone.  And that temperature will be reached very quickly in the initial firebell%3A%5Bi%5D %22The large quantity of jet fuel carried by each aircraft ignited upon impact into each building. A significant%0D%0Aportion of this fuel was consumed immediately in the ensuing fireballs. The remaining fuel is believed%0D%0Aeither to have flowed down through the buildings or to have burned off within a few minutes of the%0D%0Aaircraft impact.%22%5B%2Fi%5D %28from the executive summary of the FEMA report%29%0D%0A%0D%0ASo far so good%3B it would be foolish to claim that a jet fuel fire could have burned for an hour or more%2C eventually reaching over 1000 C. in an open space.  But FEMA has another agenda and is forced to salvage its fire theory by making an astonishing claim%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5D%22However%2C as the burning jet fuel spread across several%0D%0Afloors of the buildings%2C it ignited much of the buildings%92 contents%2C causing simultaneous fires across%0D%0Aseveral floors of both buildings. The heat output from these fires is estimated to have been comparable%0D%0Ato the power produced by a large commercial power generating station. Over a period of many minutes%2C%0D%0Athis heat induced additional stresses into the damaged structural frames while simultaneously softening%0D%0Aand weakening these frames.%22%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AThink for a moment about the types and amounts of combustible fuels in a modern office %28carpets bonded to concrete floors%2C drapes%2C desks%2C chairs%2C etc.%29 and try to imagine it fueling a ferocious blaze that generates megawatts of energy for an hour or more.    Does anybody really believe that%3F  The total caloric value of all the office junk%2C computers included%2C couldn%27t generate that much power for even a few minutes.  Show me the physics%21%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fhome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2Fwsb%2Fmedia%2F56016%2Fsite1045.jpg%0D%0A%5Bfont size%3D1%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fhome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking|108
111|5|1200 degree fire a FANTASY my ass...|vincent_vega||10:53:14|07/09/2002|  A typical house fire can reach 1100 degrees F in less than 5 minutes%21  Sure A1 has a boiling point of 280 to 572 F ...but it has a flash point of 100 F and an autoingnition point of 410 F. This stuff would be burning from the initial ingnition.  There was over 20%2C000 gallons of the stuff spread over a very wide area%2C sure some would have boiled off%2C but once the conflagration started...1200 degrees F would have been a no brainer.|108
120|6|The straws at which you grasped. . .|Ameridansk||21:04:18|07/09/2002|make you look foolish%2C rather than just ignorant.  Not knowing the boiling point of jet fuel is understandable.  I was ignorant of this fact until this issue came up.  But your reply is just plain sad.  And you have fashioned all these straw into a nice little strawman.  What I was arguing was not that the fire could have reached a temperature of 1200 but could it be SUSTAINED for a time long enough to harm the steel throughout the building so it would fall in a perfectly symmetrical wave%3F  Hardly.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...but it has a flash point of 100 F and an autoingnition point of 410 F. This stuff would be burning from the initial ingnition. %22%0D%0A%0D%0ADo you know what this stuff means%3F  I get the feeling you don%27t.  The flash point is a non-issue as no one is argueing that the fire would need help once it was started.  The same with the auto ignition point.  What is your point with this%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%22There was over 20%2C000 gallons of the stuff spread over a very wide area%22%0D%0A%0D%0ADo you really want to make this point%3F  I don%27t think so.  The wider you spread the kerosene%2C the faster it will disappear.  Has something to do with surface area%2C ya know.  This is exactly why the stories about jet fuel driven fires reaching super heated temperatures are so stupid.  Burning jet fuel can reach those high temperatures only when the flame is controlled and the fuel itself is insulated from the atmospheric conditions brought about by the fire.  %0D%0A%0D%0ABesides%2C in Tower Two it was significantly less than 20%2C000 gallons.   And while this number seems HUGE%2C when you consider the size of the WTC%2C it means that maybe .2%25 of the building was splashed with the jet fuel.  That amount of fuel%28in its entirety%29 wouldn%27t even fill a quarter of one of the 116 floors.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22 I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country. %22%0D%0A--Thomas Jefferson%2C 3rd US president 1801-1809%0D%0A%0D%0A%22 Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of State and corporate power.%22%0D%0A--Benito Mussolini %281883-1945%29%2C Fascist Dictator of Italy%0D%0A%0D%0A%22America continues to remain the enigma it has always been - a curiously insular people administered by a pathologically meddlesome%2C promiscuous government.%22%0D%0A--Arundhati Roy%2C author and activist%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|111
125|7|Sorry no scarecrow here...|vincent_vega||11:55:26|07/10/2002|%22for a time long enough to harm the steel throughout the building so it would fall in a perfectly symmetrical wave%3F Hardly.%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5D It only needed to weaken the steel on two or three floors.  Only ONE floor had to give way%2C which it did%2C to create the collapse. What exactly are you trying to get at%3F%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Do you know what this stuff means%3F I get the feeling you don%27t. The flash point is a non-issue as no one is argueing that the fire would need help once it was started. The same with the auto ignition point. What is your point with this%3F%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DThink accelerant.  The WTC had PLENTY of stuff that would burn readily and at a high temp. The fuel spread the fire over several floors simultaniously.  I continue to be amazed that you people insist the fire was not significant enough to affect the steel structure. It is well documented that the WTC was EXPECTED to fail after a NORMAL office fire over the course of two hours.  The fuel%2C combined with insuficient fireproofing just accelerated this failure. %5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A|120
86|1|Word from an Architect|NewYorkerfromMass||15:18:36|07/08/2002|Guys%2C gals%2C%0D%0A%0D%0AThere is NO mystery here.%0D%0AThe steel overheated%2C failed%2C and the buildings collapsed.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe insulation failed because%2C not only was it shaken loose by the impact of the planes hitting%2C but they had been having problems for years with it flaking off due to the movement of the building %28swaying in the wind%29.  This was especially a problem in the core of the building around the elevator shafts%2C where the dynamics of the hoistway caused an accelerated deterioration of the fire protection coatings- so much so that they had to come back several times over the years to fix it.%0D%0A%0D%0AIf one critical piece of steel begins to deform from the heat of fire%2C then that would be enough to bring down the entire structure.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ll be happy to answer any questions.|0
87|2|Thank you.|targetpractice||16:03:58|07/08/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jul-08-02 AT 04:07 PM (ET)[/font][p]And%2C I hope you do stick around to answer the questions that I suspect are being typed right now.%0D%0A%0D%0AI don%27t really have any questions myself%2C but will be very interested in reading your answers.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bon edit%3A typo%5D|86
90|3|That figures|2muchbs||20:20:40|07/08/2002|You jump on the bandwagon of some idiot who claims to know exactly how each individual column was loaded. Is this the empirical evidence you were searching for. Any real engineer would be laughing their ass off. If that idiot worked for me%2C he would be fired by now. The whole structure should collapse with only one beam jeapordied%3F What stupidity. Thats quite a load.%0D%0A%0D%0APerhaps the witnesses that said there were many loud pops before the structures fell should not be trusted. Yep thats what they said. Well before the structure moved. I guess we cant trust them either correct%3F %0D%0A%0D%0ABill%0D%0A%0D%0A|87
88|2|Some questions|ramblin_dave||20:03:30|07/08/2002|You said %22The steel overheated%2C failed%2C and the buildings collapsed.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AOkay%2C the theories about how this could have happened seem logical to me. I assume you are talking about the floor trusses and their connections to the outer %28and maybe inner%29 columns. But once a critical piece fails%2C why did the building collapse so quickly and so uniformly%3F I might have expected to see one or two sides sheer away leaving much of the building standing. Or perhaps a good portion of the central core sticking up out of the rubble. I would have expected the whole process to take a little longer too%2C not proceed virtually at freefall rate.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhen I look at the video of the south tower%2C I see the upper portion tilt over. Then that part and the part below it crumble into fragments and dust%2C including the core. So while the mechanism that initiates the collapse seems valid%2C what happens after that seems too fast and too complete.|86
91|3|Can I play the operative today%3F|2muchbs||20:31:12|07/08/2002|Ok here goes. Man I can%27t believe you bought into that conspiracy theory. Listen to the man who can draw%2C he knows what he%27s talking about. The WTC was simply built out of plain old garbage. That%27s why it fell so cleanly. Your right%2C there was no resistance%2C but thats because the structure was made out of tissue paper. They used tissue to save money. Why do you continue to question in this way. Dont you realize your hurting the democratic party%3F My god man dont let those who have no brains fool you as they are here to confuse the real issues and make the party look weak and stupid. The WTC towers fell  because they were built poorly. Get over it.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AOk how did I do%3F %0D%0A%0D%0ABill%0D%0A%0D%0APS%3A Dave your thoughts are right on. Never let anyone sway them.%0D%0A|88
99|3|What we see in the %22tilt%22 collapse|NewYorkerfromMass||01:08:52|07/09/2002|As I just said in my post below%2C the exterior failed first in that tower.  But it%27s important to understand that just because we see the exterior moving as one monolthic object%2C does not mean the whole building is doing so.%0D%0A%0D%0AI can only guess%2C but I would think the %22monolthic%22 aspect of the exterior is limited to the wall of the %22tube%22 itself.  I think the %22cage%22 like quality of the dense perimiter structure allowed it to move quite a bit as an intact mass%2C but I also think the relatively flimsy nature of the floor trusses allowed this %22skin%22 %28cage%29 to actually %28if even momentarily%29 pull away from the core. The stresses this tilting movement placed on the core were no doubt considerable%2C and combined with the heat of the fire and increased malleability of the core steel itself%2C probably brought the core itself to failure.  The downward pull of gravity would then quickly override any sort of sideways %28lateral%29 movement.|88
101|4|have you seen the North video%3F|2muchbs||01:32:56|07/09/2002|You need to make a good study of the video plaguepuppy posted. It shows the North tower %22top%22 shorten considerably before the stress riser clearance was closed up. Now how did that happen%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ABill%0D%0A%0D%0AIf you cant find it Ill find it for you when I return in a week.|99
89|2|Yeh right|2muchbs||20:12:30|07/08/2002|%22If one critical piece of steel begins to deform from the heat of fire%2C then that would be enough to bring down the entire structure.%22%0D%0A%0D%0A Which one piece is more critical than all the others%3F Such a blanket statement proves to me you have no idea what your talking about. How could you say such a stupid thing. Some architect. %0D%0A%0D%0ABill|86
97|3|Catastrophic Failure|NewYorkerfromMass||00:52:28|07/09/2002|This is how it happens%3A%0D%0A%0D%0AI am not sure if you are aware of the structural arrangement of the WTC towers%2C but they were essentially 2 gigantic vertical %22tubes%22 where the perimeter walls were actually supporting a great deal of the weight.  This was accomplished by a series of closely spaced columns %28every 39%22%29.  The %28much disparaged%29 floor trusses were supported at one end by these columns%2C and at the other end by the more traditional post and beam arrangement around the elevator cores.%0D%0A%0D%0AQ%3A How are these structures designed%3F  %0D%0AA%3A All structural designs start with the designer %28engineer%29 quantifying projected loads %28weights%29 that the structure must support.  %0D%0A%0D%0AProjected loads include live load and dead load.%0D%0ALive loads are the weight of all occupants %28people%29 and anything else that is not part of the structure itself.%0D%0ADead loads are the building itself %28steel etc.%29%0D%0A%0D%0ALive loads include assumptions of perhaps 100 lbs per square foot of floor area%2C assuming the weight of furniture and occupants.  However%2C in reality any given floor is NEVER fully %22loaded%22 at any given moment%2C so there is always more than enough steel designed to support any given floor.  And%2C even if by some fluke coincidence%2C every square foot of a building WERE fully occupied and loaded to 100 lbs at each and every square foot%2C the structure is still more than adequate to support the load due to FACTORS OF SAFETY.%0D%0A%0D%0AQ%3A What is a %22Factor of Safety%22%3F%0D%0AA%3A Steel has a theoretical loading limit after which a given size%2C and weight %22shape%22 will begin to fail.  Building codes usually require that enough steel be provided to stay WELL below the failure point- usually by a factor of 2.5 to 3.%0D%0A%0D%0AQ%3A What allowed WTC to remain standing after impact%3F%0D%0AA%3A Redundancy.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe planes each took out a wide swath of the wall of the %22tube%22%2C however%2C the close spacing of the columns allowed the weight of the building above to be transferred diagonally around the gash to the intact columns on each side.  So even with 100 or so feet of vertical support missing%2C the buildings still stood%2C and they were able to do so because of the redundancy provided by the factor of safety.  So a column designed to support 1%2C000 tons%2C theoretically %28and actually%29 could %28and DID%21%29 support 3%2C000 tons.%0D%0AHowever%2C although the structures continued to stand%2C they were now in a seriously compromised state%2C and the remaining steel was performing at or near the point of failure.%0D%0A%0D%0AQ%3A Why did the South Tower fall first%3F%0D%0AA%3A It was hit lower down%2C and therefore%2C the remaining columns were probably immediately made to perform at well over 2 times design loads.  It is simple math%3A  2 columns are supporting 25 floors above them%2C suddenly%2C one goes away.  The remaining column is now supporting 50 floors. Imagine such an %22over-stressed%22 column %28yes that%27s the term we use%21%29 and one can see that the fires did not have to burn anywhere near 2 hours.  %28Which is the minimium the insulation was supposed to provide%29%0D%0A%0D%0ASo imagine a column is now supporting double what it was designed to support and suddenly it begins to deform %28ever so slightly%29 from the heat of the fire.  Well%2C that means the column next to it will have to now support 3 times its design load%2C and now you have failure.  And when you have failure%2C it is quick and certain.  The dominoes begin their fatal march%2C and the result is catastrophic.%0D%0A%0D%0AThat heart rending%2C gut wrenching photo of the south tower tilting out to the southeast%2C shows that the 2nd plane%27s eccentric hit critically damaged the wall of the tube so that it%27s remaining perimiter columns failed first.  25 stories of building moving down just 12 feet is a lot of weight.  And if you understand inertia%2C you know it%27s not just going to stop once one level fails.  It%27s going to keep moving and go through everything right straight to the ground.|89
100|4|Dominoes again%3F|2muchbs||01:27:24|07/09/2002|Do you think there might be a better comparison. And yes I do understand inertia all to well. There happens to be a slight bit more resistance in a WTC collapse than a falling dominoe. The fact that the top section as you described was at such a severe angle should make you wonder what source corrected it%3F The top was ready to find itself effected by the resistance of the strucuture and end up sliding off the section below. Sure it would have taken some meausure to complete%2C but certainly should have carried some of its inertia in the direction it had already been traveling. Agreed%3F But instead we saw instant disintegration. Ask yourself what source allowed for such a quick correction of thousands of tons of steel and concrete%2C that is if you know anything about inertia.%0D%0A%0D%0ABill%0D%0A%0D%0AI am not trying to bully as someone had put it%2C as a matter of fact I would be willing to leave if that%27s what most prefer. I think this is very important and as such am a bit driven. This is an area for experts I should think. Everybody and there brother think that common sense can rival a highly trained engineer. I disagree. Nope its not about ego either. I have accomplished way more than my share in this life and need very little in the way of ego boost. I am fighting about this because in my expert opinion the structures were brought down through the use of explosives or%3F Its not a popular opinion%2C I cannot help that.|97
103|1|Anybody want to work on this|2muchbs||01:55:27|07/09/2002|%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.americanfreepress.net%2F10_22_01%2FSome_Survivors_Say__Bombs_Expl%2Fsome_survivors_say__bombs_expl.html%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.cam.net.uk%2Fhome%2Fnimmann%2Fpeace%2Fexplosions.htm%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.rense.com%2Fgeneral17%2Feyewitnessreportspersist.htm%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A Bill%0D%0A%0D%0AI do have a bit of an advantage in the bomb theory as my 20%2B year freind who is an highrise engineer was in a building tangent to the WTC towers. He said without a doubt there were many explosions before the structure moved. He has witnessed many implosions. Whats that worth if we are to put stock in witnesses%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ACatch ya in a week.%0D%0A|0
104|2|busy|ewing2001||02:42:32|07/09/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jul-09-02 AT 03:39 AM (ET)[/font][p]NewYorkerfromMass%2C%0D%0A%0D%0Adunno where you came from%2C but since you think here are only tinfoil morons%2C then you might have no problem with me to describe you as possible OSI-spy.%0D%0A%0D%0AYou have humour or%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s not that i have a problem with opposite opinions%2C %0D%0Ait%27s the fact%2C that people like you only hang around in these topics to keep us busy.%0D%0AWhy%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ABut that%27s not really a problem for me. Not anymore.%0D%0AI%27m busy everywhere and still convinced%2C that my LIHOP-topics are so empty%2C because i%27m undisputable there.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ATherefore i enjoy it to visit my SETUP supporter and friends like 2muchBS and plaguepuppy%2C who are getting better and better with each reply while you are still struggling in superficial explanations.%0D%0A%0D%0A1%29%0D%0AThe steel melting explanation was never mentioned as a conclusion in all testimonies and i bet %241000 that you never read them.%0D%0ABut why you arguing from something from your memory i have all these testimonies on my harddrive and trust me%2C it was no joy to read them all. But the most important part was that there was no conclusion%2C instead of what NY Times claimed. %0D%0AOther european papers got obviously headaches as well and just quoted the NY TIMES%2C but back to the FEMA-testimony e.g.%3A%0D%0A%0D%0ANo conclusion%2C same to the other specialist groups.%0D%0ABring me any quote and i will hit you with my quotes.%0D%0A%0D%0ASo that means for us%2C we%27re alone and can%27t use official evidence because this evidence still don%27t exist.%0D%0ATherefore our room for speculations and scientific analysis is still allowed.%0D%0A%0D%0AIn the meantime the testimonies had been postponed for the 4th time and last week a new meeting took place in NYC but not with new testimonies%2C but with new obscure expert groups from Israel and James Quintiere from Maryland University%2C who also led the Waco-attack-examination. %0D%0A%0D%0AFor sure i%27m pretty excited if their results are soon ready for the garbage as well.%0D%0AWaco%21  LOL. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ASo why don%27t you face the facts%3A there is no official explanation yet...still after 10 months.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut we are still fighting about the best explanation and i tend to believe the 2muchBS explanations.%0D%0A%0D%0ANothing from the other side has ever convinced me.%0D%0A%0D%0A2%29%0D%0ABut what amazes me most%2C is that you%2C or any of the anti-controlled damage supporters%2C constantly ignore my Building 7-analysis and questions since months.%0D%0A%0D%0ANoone could explain me%2C why Building 7 collapsed and how the gastank inside the Building was hit by debris%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AShould i really believe that the gas had the same amount as from 1 plane%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AI don%27t know which moron will believe that crap.%0D%0A%0D%0ADid someone open the windows for B7%3F%0D%0AWhat about the sprinkler system in B7%3F%0D%0AWhy was Building 7 hit and the Court wasn%27t %28next to B7%29%3F%0D%0AWhy there was no testimony for B7%3F%0D%0AWhy did it take 2 months until the NY POST revealed that an %28illegal%21%29 gas tank was inside this building %28which was a big issue for Guilliani that time%21%21%29%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AWhy did it take 2-3 months%2C until the CIA confirmed%2C %0D%0Athey had an office in that building%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AWhy did B7 collapse horizontally %28as you can see perfectly in the HBO documentary%29 and why a couple of hours later between 4%3A00 and 5%3A00 PM%3F The first explosion in B7 was between 9%3A30 and 10%3A00 as you can see in a video by CNN. It was before both Twin Towers collapsed.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut B7 didn%27t collapse at 10. It didn%27t collapse at 11%2C or 12%2C even not at 1 PM or 2 PM%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AIt was still officially burning at 3 PM.%0D%0A%0D%0AHow cute%2C that this much smaller building was even burning at 4 PM.%0D%0A...and it burned and burned and burned and then for strange reasons suddenly collapsed.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat happened with the magic gas tank%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ADid they bring 4%2C 5 more gas tanks in between%3F%0D%0ADid the gas burn slower%3F %0D%0AOn which chemistry laws does that depend%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd then%3F%0D%0AYou wanna bring the steel theory again%3F%0D%0AYou think now the steel melted 5 hours later%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AFrom what%3F Regular fire%3F Still the gas tank%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ARemember%2C the melting theory is dead anyway  and that means%2C %0D%0Afor B7 as well.%0D%0AI even don%27t know%2C if B7 had any steel in it.%0D%0A%0D%0AHow is it possible%2C that a building for the first time in the history of human mankind and architecture collapsed and even wasn%27t hit by anyything%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ANo planes%2C no debris %28definetely not between 10 and 5PM%2C because debris can%27t fly if it once reached the floor and even %22pulverised%22%2C LOL%29%0D%0A%0D%0ASo what hit B7%3F %0D%0AWhy did it collapse%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ABetter come to the conclusion%3A%0D%0AB7 was controlled demolition%2C it %22collapsed%22 between 4%3A30 and 5%3A00 PM%2C because someone decided this before or at that time.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd if this happened before%2C then it wasn%27t LIHOP%2C because no plane hit B7. Then it was a SETUP. And that%27s why they f%2A%2Aed in that point. Political decision maybe%3F Why%3F%0D%0AWhat did the CIA have to hide in that building which had to be destroyed%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AI have even a freudian statement by former B7%2FCIA%2FNYC Electronic Task Force Officer Bob Weaver%2C who said this for unknown reasons at the United Nations %28CyberCrime Conference%29%2C %0D%0Awhere i was invited a while ago as well%3A%0D%0A%0D%0AParaphrased%3A%0D%0A%22...we got bombed in 1993%2C where we had an office...then moved to B7.. and then on 911...bombed again...%22%0D%0A%0D%0AFor sure%2C this is no evidence.%0D%0ABut as long as you fight about B1%2C B2 i will annoy you with B7%21   %3A%29 %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DGROUND ZERO Forum NYC%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.ourDNA.org%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.delphiforums.com%2Fground_zero2001%0D%0A%0D%0ASupporter of the 911-Scepticism Movement NYC%2C Washington%2C San Francisco%2C Ohio etc...%0D%0A%0D%0ASupport public LIHOP-evidence now%2C SETUP later%21%0D%0A%0D%0AOfficial investigative journalist for http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unansweredquestions.org%0D%0A%0D%0AThe last Washington-911 skepticism forum was on June 10th in National Press Center including Julie Sweeney %28NYC%29%2C J. Michael Springmann %28ex- Jeddah %22CIA%22-Consulate%2C where 10-15 visas for the 911 hijackers had been filed%2C Lorna Brett FAA%2FAirline Accountability%2C Mary Schiavo%2C Esq. FAA%2FAirline Accountability%2C Michael Ruppert %28copvcia%29%2C Tom Flocco %28911- insider trading story%29 and John Judge%2C Air Defenses%2FNORAD%2FPentagon-Specialist etc... %0D%0A%0D%0AThe last NYC- 911-skepticism forum was on May 3rd to 5th in NYC%2C 135 west 42nd St. %28bet. 6th %26 7th Ave%29 at Chashama Theater%2C Times Square.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt included also a panel on May 4th%2C streamed live over the net with panelists from DU%2C guerrillanews%2C GZ%2C Alex Jones.com and a live phone session with Oswald Le Winter %28Portugal%2C Ex-USA%29. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe last SF-911-skepticism forum was a rally in front of the office of Diane Feinstein in January 2002.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe 911-sceptic contents%3A%0D%0Aa%29 geopolitical background %28Carlyle%2C Harken%2C UNOCAL%2C%0D%0ACentGas%2C DynCorp%2C ENRON Broadband%2FTSI%2FTaliban%2C%0D%0AHalliburton%2C BAe%2C Northrup etc..%29%0D%0Ab%29 investigative %2B scientific oddities%2C prior knowledge%2Fearly warnings%2C details for a set-up incl. LIHOP etc..%0D%0Ac%29 current political situation%2C historical comparisons%0D%0AProj. Northwoods%2C Bushistory%2C Ashcrofts%0D%0Adatabase%2Freading lists%2C threads of week%2C lies of war%2C yuppie fascism%2C%0D%0Acivil liberties%2Farrestments etc.. %0D%0Ad%29 political and media analysis plus current support%0D%0Afor 911-investigation %28US congress%3A McKinney%2C Stark%2C%0D%0Aplus opinions Ron Paul etc..%2C AtlantaPoll%2C%0D%0A911-petition with 11000 sigs%2C diff. books from Moore%0D%0Ato Greg Palast%29%2C 911-website projects%2C independent%0D%0Amedia portals etc..%0D%0Ae%29 Insider-oddities %2Bdetails%2C insider-infos%2C last%0D%0Aminute topics%2C %22breaking news%22...%5B%2Ffont%5D|103
110|3|Read the freaking FEMA Report|Doc Paulie||10:42:24|07/09/2002|and stop wasting our time Ewing.%0D%0A%0D%0ABuilding SEVEN is discussed in detail. %0D%0A%0D%0ABe also really nice if you would give-up the need to badmouth people who post here. Accussing them of alterior motives. What is YOUR DEAL Ewing%3F Do you ever do anything but 9-11 stuff%3F Who is paying you sir%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5BA HREF%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stand77.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fclinks%2Fmain.cgi%22%5Dthe 9-11 Files because you have questions%5B%2FA%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D|104
115|4|%3F|ewing2001||12:47:58|07/09/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jul-09-02 AT 01:21 PM (ET)[/font][p]I%27m not paid for anything%2C maybe you%27re paid%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd where%27s your fantasy URL from this FEMA report you%27re talking about%3F I have the official FEMA testimony and B7 is not mentioned with any conclusion.%0D%0AWhy is the FEMA report %22freaky%22%3F %0D%0ADid you really read it%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ASo please show me what you have.%0D%0AAnd why are you not able to recall this explanation or any %22detail%22%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AIf the explosion on the CNN VIDEO AT b7 was the Tower2 collapse rising dust%2C then why can%27t i see tower 2 collapsing%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ABut even let us assume a collapse ring without a collapse.%0D%0AYou wanna sell me now%2C that Building 7 exploded only once%2C at 4%3A30 PM and then collapsed immediately because of the gas tank%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd why did B7 burn then for hours%3F%0D%0AWhich debris was so hot and able to reach the other side %0D%0Aof Vesey street %3D B7 %2C before 10 AM and forced a fire%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AWhy did B7 collapse %28as seen on HBO%29%3F %0D%0ANo plane%2C no melting%2C no debris...still a simple question. %0D%0A%0D%0APS%3A%0D%0AI waste as much time as you waste your time.%0D%0AProbably that%27s your problem.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd what are %22alterior motives%22%3F%0D%0AAs long as we treated as tinfoils or conspircay theorists%2C %0D%0Ai can accuse how i want%2C too.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m journalist and programmer and 2muchBS is architect.%0D%0ASo talk with us for what we represent%2C then noone is %22accusing%22.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt was also sarcasm as expressed and not addressed to you.%0D%0AAre you the spokesman for newbies now%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DGROUND ZERO Forum NYC%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.ourDNA.org%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.delphiforums.com%2Fground_zero2001%0D%0A%0D%0ASupporter of the 911-Scepticism Movement NYC%2C Washington%2C San Francisco%2C Ohio etc...%0D%0A%0D%0ASupport public LIHOP-evidence now%2C SETUP later%21%0D%0A%0D%0AOfficial investigative journalist for http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unansweredquestions.org%0D%0A%0D%0AThe last Washington-911 skepticism forum was on June 10th in National Press Center including Julie Sweeney %28NYC%29%2C J. Michael Springmann %28ex- Jeddah %22CIA%22-Consulate%2C where 10-15 visas for the 911 hijackers had been filed%2C Lorna Brett FAA%2FAirline Accountability%2C Mary Schiavo%2C Esq. FAA%2FAirline Accountability%2C Michael Ruppert %28copvcia%29%2C Tom Flocco %28911- insider trading story%29 and John Judge%2C Air Defenses%2FNORAD%2FPentagon-Specialist etc... %0D%0A%0D%0AThe last NYC- 911-skepticism forum was on May 3rd to 5th in NYC%2C 135 west 42nd St. %28bet. 6th %26 7th Ave%29 at Chashama Theater%2C Times Square.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt included also a panel on May 4th%2C streamed live over the net with panelists from DU%2C guerrillanews%2C GZ%2C Alex Jones.com and a live phone session with Oswald Le Winter %28Portugal%2C Ex-USA%29. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe last SF-911-skepticism forum was a rally in front of the office of Diane Feinstein in January 2002.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe 911-sceptic contents%3A%0D%0Aa%29 geopolitical background %28Carlyle%2C Harken%2C UNOCAL%2C%0D%0ACentGas%2C DynCorp%2C ENRON Broadband%2FTSI%2FTaliban%2C%0D%0AHalliburton%2C BAe%2C Northrup etc..%29%0D%0Ab%29 investigative %2B scientific oddities%2C prior knowledge%2Fearly warnings%2C details for a set-up incl. LIHOP etc..%0D%0Ac%29 current political situation%2C historical comparisons%0D%0AProj. Northwoods%2C Bushistory%2C Ashcrofts%0D%0Adatabase%2Freading lists%2C threads of week%2C lies of war%2C yuppie fascism%2C%0D%0Acivil liberties%2Farrestments etc.. %0D%0Ad%29 political and media analysis plus current support%0D%0Afor 911-investigation %28US congress%3A McKinney%2C Stark%2C%0D%0Aplus opinions Ron Paul etc..%2C AtlantaPoll%2C%0D%0A911-petition with 11000 sigs%2C diff. books from Moore%0D%0Ato Greg Palast%29%2C 911-website projects%2C independent%0D%0Amedia portals etc..%0D%0Ae%29 Insider-oddities %2Bdetails%2C insider-infos%2C last%0D%0Aminute topics%2C %22breaking news%22...%5B%2Ffont%5D|110
118|5|Building Seven UnFreaky Report Ewing missed while lost in the Tinfoil Abyss|Doc Paulie||14:17:17|07/09/2002|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.house.gov%2Fscience%2Fhot%2Fwtc%2Fwtc-report%2FWTC_ch5.pdf%0D%0A%0D%0AYes a 3rd grader can tell you this report is not the end-all of anything%2C thanks. However it beats the pants off anything presented here by the Tiresome Trio.%0D%0A%0D%0AI would also recommend the links here also dealing with the original topic of this thread..Fireproofing at the WTC.%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.stand77.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fclinks%2Fcategory.cgi%3Fcategory%3D%2F9-11%2BDay%2Bof%2BHorror%2FWTC%2BCollapse%2BInvestigation%26start%3D0%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5BA HREF%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stand77.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fclinks%2Fmain.cgi%22%5Dthe 9-11 Files because you have questions%5B%2FA%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D|115
116|3|Take it from a 40 year old professional|NewYorkerfromMass||13:06:54|07/09/2002|who has been looking at building plans for over 25 years.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe steel failed.%0D%0AGravity is a powerful force.  It wants to pull everything straight down.  Once a weakness is exposed%2C it is exploited.%0D%0A%0D%0ABldg. 7 was built over a huge diesel tank.  The fire burned ALL day%2C and finally heated the steel above it to FAILURE.%0D%0A%0D%0ABelieve me%2C there is NO mystery here.%0D%0A%0D%0A%28BTW%2C I live and work in NYC.%29|104
117|4|looking at building plans%3F|ewing2001||13:51:47|07/09/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jul-09-02 AT 02:02 PM (ET)[/font][p]Thanks for replying.%0D%0A%0D%0AGlad you need no spokesman.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut what do you try to sell me%3F%0D%0AI respect your knowledge about reading building plans%2C%0D%0Abut what has this knowledge to do with architecture%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ABuilding 7 wasn%27t build over a %22huge diesel tank%22.%0D%0A%0D%0A%2236%2C000 gallons were just below ground on the building%27s southwest side for generators that served some of the other tenants...%22%2C that%27s what they claimed months later.%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.wirednewyork.com%2Fwtc%2F7wtc%2Fdefault.htm%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AThis would even contain 3 times nonsense.%0D%0A1%29 What reached these gallons to start burning%3F%0D%0A2%29 How can a cooking process %22melt%22 from below%3F%0D%0A3%29 There is no melting conclusion in any report about B7%2C because this report also doesn%27t exist.%0D%0A%0D%0AHowever you are just didn%27t tell us the whole %22explanation%22.%0D%0A%0D%0AThey claimed and let us assume it%27s true%2C that %0D%0Aanother gas tank holding 6%2C000 gallons of fuel was in the building to provide power to the command bunker on the 23rd floor.%0D%0A%0D%0AIf the CIA and OEM %28led by Jerry Hauer%2C who built this command center in 1998%29 think i buy this crap%2C then i was born in Disneyland.%0D%0AWhy did the OEM need %22extra power%22%3F For some computers%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ABoth gas tanks are nonsense. Usually these kinds of diesel-powered generators are only in hospitals. %0D%0A%0D%0AEven if the CIA allowed to build these generators for this building as well%2C then it doesn%27t explain a technical reason for a collapse nor it was explained for which reason both gas tanks had been installed.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd how are they able to build a gastank on the 23rd floor%2C violating the rules of a public building%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AIf you know building maps%2C tell me what this is about.%0D%0ANever heard anything like that in my live. %0D%0A%0D%0ABut even after 10 months ignoring the B7-collaps  you believe the gas tank bogus as a reason%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AThere are testimonies about B1 and B2 and melting is mentioned%2C but not in any conclusion.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut i  asked for B7 and why you describe this as %22mystery%22 %3F%0D%0A%0D%0AI see no mystery. That%27s what many papers thought for weeks.%0D%0A%0D%0AI see a simple explanation. It exploded because someone decided to do it. Now it%27s my job to find out who did it and why.%0D%0A%0D%0AYou didn%27t bring any technical explanation why it can%27t be controlled demolition. %0D%0AWhat forced the fire %28or explosion between 9%3A30 and 10 PM%29 on B7 on Vesey Street%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AHow can a 47-story%2C two-million-square-foot building burn for seven hours and then collapse within seconds at 5%3A20 PM%28found now the official time in one article%2C but i remember there was always confusion about the exact time%29%2C while a 101-story did this within 45 minutes%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat part of %22flaming debris%22 is able to reach the other side of Vesey Street%3F %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AWell%2C B7 didn%27t provide an official explanation about all these questions as well.%0D%0ANeither the American Society of Civil Engineers or the FEMA did testify on B7.%0D%0A%0D%0AAll articles are based on vague speculations or obscure opinions by Jerome Hauer.%0D%0A%0D%0ASo what%27s your %22speculation%22%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0APS%3A%0D%0AI also live and work in NYC%2C at that time i had an office at GROUND ZERO as well.%0D%0A%0D%0ADoes that make me more credible%3F I hope not.%0D%0A%0D%0AI saw both collapses of B1 and B2 live with my eyes on the streets %28from Brooklyn with an excellent view%2C which was sick enough%29 but i never saw the collapse of B7.%0D%0A%0D%0AThey never showed it on TV until some weeks ago.%0D%0AThen i saw it the first time on HBO.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt looked exactly like a controlled demolition%2C which i often saw in my live.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DGROUND ZERO Forum NYC%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.ourDNA.org%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.delphiforums.com%2Fground_zero2001%0D%0A%0D%0ASupporter of the 911-Scepticism Movement NYC%2C Washington%2C San Francisco%2C Ohio etc...%0D%0A%0D%0ASupport public LIHOP-evidence now%2C SETUP later%21%0D%0A%0D%0AOfficial investigative journalist for http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unansweredquestions.org%0D%0A%0D%0AThe last Washington-911 skepticism forum was on June 10th in National Press Center including Julie Sweeney %28NYC%29%2C J. Michael Springmann %28ex- Jeddah %22CIA%22-Consulate%2C where 10-15 visas for the 911 hijackers had been filed%2C Lorna Brett FAA%2FAirline Accountability%2C Mary Schiavo%2C Esq. FAA%2FAirline Accountability%2C Michael Ruppert %28copvcia%29%2C Tom Flocco %28911- insider trading story%29 and John Judge%2C Air Defenses%2FNORAD%2FPentagon-Specialist etc... %0D%0A%0D%0AThe last NYC- 911-skepticism forum was on May 3rd to 5th in NYC%2C 135 west 42nd St. %28bet. 6th %26 7th Ave%29 at Chashama Theater%2C Times Square.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt included also a panel on May 4th%2C streamed live over the net with panelists from DU%2C guerrillanews%2C GZ%2C Alex Jones.com and a live phone session with Oswald Le Winter %28Portugal%2C Ex-USA%29. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe last SF-911-skepticism forum was a rally in front of the office of Diane Feinstein in January 2002.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe 911-sceptic contents%3A%0D%0Aa%29 geopolitical background %28Carlyle%2C Harken%2C UNOCAL%2C%0D%0ACentGas%2C DynCorp%2C ENRON Broadband%2FTSI%2FTaliban%2C%0D%0AHalliburton%2C BAe%2C Northrup etc..%29%0D%0Ab%29 investigative %2B scientific oddities%2C prior knowledge%2Fearly warnings%2C details for a set-up incl. LIHOP etc..%0D%0Ac%29 current political situation%2C historical comparisons%0D%0AProj. Northwoods%2C Bushistory%2C Ashcrofts%0D%0Adatabase%2Freading lists%2C threads of week%2C lies of war%2C yuppie fascism%2C%0D%0Acivil liberties%2Farrestments etc.. %0D%0Ad%29 political and media analysis plus current support%0D%0Afor 911-investigation %28US congress%3A McKinney%2C Stark%2C%0D%0Aplus opinions Ron Paul etc..%2C AtlantaPoll%2C%0D%0A911-petition with 11000 sigs%2C diff. books from Moore%0D%0Ato Greg Palast%29%2C 911-website projects%2C independent%0D%0Amedia portals etc..%0D%0Ae%29 Insider-oddities %2Bdetails%2C insider-infos%2C last%0D%0Aminute topics%2C %22breaking news%22...%5B%2Ffont%5D|116
119|5|Emergency Generators Require Diesel Fuel|NewYorkerfromMass||15:30:26|07/09/2002|which is what OEM had.  Just like a hospital.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe second plane practically went thru the tower%2C debris flying thru space%2C northwards%2C at approx 400 to 500 MPH%2C arcing down%2C and landing all around and inside B7.  No mystery as to the cause of a fire in B7.|117
113|2|Popping noises....|vincent_vega||11:03:23|07/09/2002|  gee that COULDEN%27t have been the trusses giving way now COULD IT%3F  Would have sounded like a hundered little bombs going off.  You continue to amaze me with you lack of thought.|103
121|3| %22You continue to amaze me with you lack of thought.%22 |plaguepuppy||22:27:55|07/09/2002|The feeling is mutual dude%21  You lack more thought than you can even imagine%2C honest injun%21%0D%0A  Is it really that obvious that trusses would or could fail in a way that makes lots of loud popping sounds%3F  All the semi-official collapse modelling I%27ve seen suggests that the trusses fail at their connections to the inner core and the outer wall.  These are big hanger brackets held in place with huge bolts - they would not fail with a series of pops%2C but at the instant of complete collapse as an entire floor gave way.  Maybe you think that all those little diagonal braces in the trusses could go off like a string of firecrackers.  All this from a gradual heating of the truss%3F  At most this will make it expand and press more firmly against the brackets%2C which would not break it away from its supports %28and would have made the outer walls bulge%2C which they didn%27t do in the videos%29.  The only way for heat to make a truss fail is for it to soften and sag%2C pulling it away from the brackets.  This would mean heating the entire truss%2C which is attached to the bottom of the steel floor pan%2C to %7E1200 C..  And that%2C my thotless friend%2C ain%27t gonna happen in this particular physical universe%2C not with 500%2C000 gal. of jet fuel and stacks of newspapers all over the floors%3E%3E%3E%0D%0A%0D%0ADeal with it or fold%2C poser...%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fhome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2Fwsb%2Fmedia%2F56016%2Fsite1049.jpg%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fhome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2Fwsb%2Fmedia%2F56016%2Fsite1045_t.jpg%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dred size%3D1%5D%5Bb%5DNope%2C definitely no kind of explosions goin%27 on in there%2C nosiree Bob%21%21%21|113
126|4|what exactly am I posing as%3F|vincent_vega||12:07:27|07/10/2002|  Not pretending to be anything other than somone who thinks you guys can%27t see the forest for the trees.  %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5D%22Nope%2C definitely no kind of explosions goin%27 on in there%2C nosiree Bob%21%21%21 %22%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A I see an explosion here but not the chemical type.  Based on the scale of this energy release%2C it would take several tons of explosives to create this effects%2C and that much explosives would create a flash and black smoke signature.  I only see fire and grey smoke.  This is a massive structual failure of steel and concrete%2C which would take on the properties of an explosive release of energy...potential energy.  Not all the trusses need to soften%2C only a few critical joints.  Once enough fail to support their share of the load%2C bang the rest fail explosively.  In this case the side of the building nearest to the camera failed first and it began to topple.  This catastrophicly stressed the rest of the load bearing structure at the point of tilt%2C and resulted in the vertical collapse.%0D%0A|121
140|5|A lumberjack then%3F|plaguepuppy||00:23:47|07/11/2002|Actually you have it exactly wrong%3A  the opposite side %28south face%29 of the building failed first%2C which is why the building is tipping to the south.  This side should not even be in compression - the central core with its array of large box colums would would act as a pivot point %28I%27ll be glad to disprove those who claim that it would just melt away%29 as the south side failed%2C placing the north wall in tension.  So why the %22massive structual failure%22 with violent ejection of shattered concrete and steel%3F|126
142|6|Ejectile dysfunction|chascarrillo||05:12:29|07/11/2002|Why the violent ejection of shattered concrete and steel%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AWhen the structure weakened enough to fail%2C the top portion collapsed onto the lower. The part of the building that failed would have to do something - it bulged out %28as seen on TV%29. The outward motion starts and can%27t stop without a good reason %28thanks to inertia%29%2C so the debris from the building would eject outwards with pretty considerable force.%0D%0A%0D%0AAir pressure doesn%27t hurt%2C either. The air%27s gotta go somewhere...%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fhome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejlhouk%2Fbanhumancloning.jpg%5B%2Ffont%5D|140
114|2|From the first link%2C second paragraph|Doc Paulie||11:48:52|07/09/2002|%22%22Television viewers watching the horrific events of Sept. 11 saw evidence of explosions before the towers collapsed. Televised images show what appears to be a huge explosion occurring near ground level%2C in the vicinity of the 47-story Salomon Brothers Building%2C known as WTC 7%2C prior to the collapse of the first tower.%22%22%0D%0A%0D%0AThis is the infamous Tower2 collapse rising dust cloud video debunked over 9 months ago. If this is the quality of the information these links hold it is not worth wasting anyone%27s time with.%0D%0A%0D%0AGetting pretty lame around here when this stuff is held out as evidence. What is next%3F the stupid Japanese UFO video again%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5BA HREF%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stand77.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fclinks%2Fmain.cgi%22%5Dthe 9-11 Files because you have questions%5B%2FA%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D|103
122|3|Thx Doc Paulie for this slapstick study%2C which didn%27t include testimonies%21|ewing2001||00:27:49|07/10/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jul-10-02 AT 00:41 AM (ET)[/font][p]No suprise for me%3A%0D%0A%0D%0AAs usual%2C DocPaulie confused a testimony with a harmless %22study%22%0D%0A%0D%0ADon%27t you get the difference%3F%0D%0AThis was a study%2C not an official testimony. %0D%0AI hope you still can read.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut i did you the favor and read the whole %22report%22.%0D%0A%0D%0ACompiled by some guys we know%2C but i%27m bored to give now some %0D%0Abackground infos%3A%0D%0A%0D%0ARamon Gilsanz%0D%0AEdward M. DePaola%0D%0AChristopher Marrion%0D%0AHarold %93Bud%94 Nelson%0D%0A%0D%0ALet%27s see.%0D%0APlease remember%2C we search for an official explanation and conclusion%2C how B7 collapsed%2C started to burn and which parts of the debris hit the building at which time.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut for me most important%3A The collapse and the gas tanks.%0D%0A%0D%0AHow does this %22study%22 starts%3F%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...it appears the collapse was due%0D%0Aprimarily to fire%2C rather than any impact damage from the collapsing towers...%22%0D%0A%0D%0AAs shown in Figure 1-1 %28WTC site map in Chapter 1%29%2C WTC 7 was located north of the main WTC%0D%0Acomplex%2C across Vesey Street%2C and was linked to the WTC Plaza by two pedestrian bridges%3A the large Plaza%0D%0Abridge and a smaller%2C glass-enclosed pedestrian bridge. The bridges spanned 95 feet across Vesey Street%2C%0D%0Aconnecting the Plaza and the 3rd floor of WTC 7. In addition to the office occupancies%2C WTC 7 also%0D%0Acontained an electrical substation%2C and the WTC Complex shipping ramp%2C as shown in Figure 5-1...%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AI must disappoint the newbies of this topic%3A%0D%0A%0D%0ADescriptions like%3A%0D%0A%22...the second plane practically went thru the tower%2C debris flying thru space%2C northwards%2C at approx 400 to 500 MPH%2C arcing down%2C and landing all around and inside B7...%22 didn%27t appear in this study.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AHere is what we already know%3A%0D%0A23rd floor%3Dgas tank%0D%0A%0D%0ABut this gas tank on 23 wasn%27t mentioned in the map of the building%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A1 loading docks%2C existing Con Ed transformer%0D%0A4 switchgear%0D%0A5 generators%0D%0A6 switchgear%2C storage%0D%0A7 OEM generators%2C day tank%0D%0A9-10 secret service%0D%0A%0D%0A%28hope you trust me%2C that the companies of floor 11-22 are not important for our %22evidence%22%29%0D%0A%0D%0A22 Federal Home Loan bank%0D%0A23 OEM  %28jerry Hauer %3C---i added this name%29  %0D%0A24 IRS%0D%0A25 IRS%2C DOD%2C CIA%0D%0A26-27 Standard Chartered Bank%0D%0A28-45 SSB %3DSalomon Smith Barney%0D%0A46-47 Mechanical floors%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ANo evidence or conclusions in the first chapters.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AAs usual%2C this report tries to impress with the %22gravity%0D%0Aframing consisted of composite beams%22%0D%0A%0D%0AThere is no conclusion between this description and an explanation of a collapse or which parts of the debris hit the building 7.%0D%0A%0D%0ANothing also in 5.2.2%3A%0D%0A%0D%0AStructural descriptions%0D%0A%0D%0AEndless descriptions%2C how the all trusses transferred the loads%0D%0Abetween various columns.%0D%0A%0D%0AInteresting to read%2C %0D%0Abut still nothing to do with fire%2C debris or collapse.%0D%0A%0D%0AThen%2C already on Page 11 of the study an interesting point about the Fire Alarm%3A%0D%0A%0D%0AGood to know%3A%0D%0A%0D%0AThey are %22activated automatically upon detection of smoke%2C water flow%2C or initiation of a manual pull station. Monitoring of the fire-alarm control panel for WTC 7 was provided independently at a central station...%22%2C but also totally unimportant for my questions.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A5.3.3 Compartmentalization%0D%0A%0D%0AMaybe important to remember%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Concrete floor slabs provided vertical compartmentalization to limit fire and smoke spread between floors%22%0D%0A%0D%0AMore important%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...the space between the edge of the concrete floor%0D%0Aslab and curtain wall%2C which ranged from 2 to 10 inches%2C was to be filled with firestopping material....%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...The fireproofing material used to protect the structural members has been identified by Silverstein Properties as %93Monokote.%94%0D%0A%0D%0AMonokote is as far as i found out%2C a special iron%2C commonly called a monokote iron%2C which is used to apply heat to the adhesive and shrink open covering.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ABut let the %22study%22 continue%2C because it%27s not on me to imply something.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnother important note for us%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...The Fire Pump Room was located on the ground floor in the southwest corner of the building and contained an automatic %28as well as a manual%29 fire pump...%22%0D%0A%0D%0A5.3.5 Power%0D%0A%0D%0AInteresting descriptions%2C new questions at this point for me%2C but unanswered%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%2213%2C800 volts %28V%29%2C...stepped down to 480%2F277 V by silicone oil-filled transformers..%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...The Silverstein generators consisted of two 900-kW units%2C which were also located on the 5th floor%2C and supplied by a 275-gallon day tank. Other characteristics of the design or controls for the fuel system for the generators are unknown...%22%0D%0A%0D%0AI would like to know%2C why%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AThen finally on Page 13%2C %0D%0A5.4 Building Loads%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...The degree of impact damage to the south fa%E7ade could not be documented. However%2C damage was evident from review of photographs and video records....%22%0D%0A%0D%0AIf this isn%27t Looney Tunes%2C then i don%27t know.%0D%0A%0D%0A1%29 For a scientific evidence we need to know the degree of impact%2C especially for a %22collapse%22%0D%0A%0D%0A2%29Which review of photographs and video records%3F%3F%0D%0AWhen i read the full testimony of B1 and B2 all specialist groups%2C who testified complained%2C that they asked for %22photographs and video records%22%2C but never get any one. They said%2C many TV stations put everything on hold.%0D%0A%0D%0AEven the FEMA said the same%2C but not complaining for sure.%0D%0A%0D%0A3%29 Even with Video Records there is no conclusion or a serious evidence for a %22collapse%22.  %0D%0A%0D%0AAt this part of the %22study%22 it turns into a first grade report.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ASo nothing until Page 13%2C so i continued...%0D%0A%0D%0AI was especially looking for the floors of the impact of debris.%0D%0AWhile we know%2C that the plane hit the Twin Towers on the other side of Vesey Street%2C how can debris from the 80-100th floor hit the 23rd floor on the other sid and crash a gas tank%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AThrough the window%3F I would like to read this in the %22study%22%2C but it didn%27t appear yet.%0D%0AAnd what about the time%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ANo chance for debris after the two collapses of B1 and B2.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd as some smarta%24%24 said here in this topic%2C was there even an explosion of the gas tank between 9 and 10 AM%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AAt least it wasn%27t in this %22report%22. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AThen very funny%2C this %22study%22 debunked an old rumour as false%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22There was also a Con Ed 4-inch-diameter gas line with 0.25 pounds per square inch %28psi%29 %28low%29 pressure going into WTC 7 for cooking purposes. Early news reports had indicated that a highpressure%2C%0D%0A24-inch gas main was located in the vicinity of the building%3B however%2C this proved not to be true.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AThe report annoys us%2C how the fuel system works%2C but what has this to do with the impact%2C the degrees%2C the debris%2C fire and collapse%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ANothing%2C because in this report nothing hit the B7.%0D%0A%0D%0AThis report contains not only NO answers%2C it also contains many new implied questions or even ask new ones%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22At the east end of the 5th floor...the fuel oil distribution pipe ran above this door several feet to the north of the masonry wall. The type%2C quality%2C and hardware on the door set are unknown. The position of the door %28i.e.%2C open or closed%29 at the time of the incident is also unknown. Also%2C no information was available%0D%0Ain regard to the size of the undercut on the door...%22%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat%27s so important about the 5th floor anyway for us%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ADid debris hit this floor%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AIf so%2C not in this report. And on the 5th floor%2C we only had generators%2C as leaned. No gas tank.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd pipes definetely let no building collapse.%0D%0AEveryone who believe this%2C must live on outer space.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut i wished%2C at least this report would claim it%2C but the authors didn%27t risk to make fools of themselves either.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ABut then%2C very interesting%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...Con Ed reported that %93the feeders supplying power to WTC 7 were de-energized at 9%3A59 a.m.%94 It is believed that the%0D%0Aemergency generators came on line immediately. %0D%0AIt is also believed that some of them may have stopped%0D%0Aoperating because of the contamination of the intake air flowing into the carburetors and radiators. %0D%0A%0D%0AExcept for the SSB system%2C where it is understood that a UPS system provided backup power to the 75-gpm pump%2C%0D%0Athe flow of oil would stop and%2C as soon as the day tanks were empty%2C the involved generator set would stop%0D%0Arunning...%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AInteresting timing. The south tower collapsed at 10%3A05 AM %28some reports claim 9%3A59 AM%29%2C the north tower at 10%3A28 AM.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut unfortunately nothing was said%2C how intake air flow into the  carburetors and radiators. %0D%0A%0D%0AAgain%2C what has this to do with the collapse%2C which was 7.5 hours later.%0D%0A%0D%0ANo explanation.%0D%0A%0D%0AMore interesting we learn%2C that %22the SSB generators did not use day tanks.%22 %0D%0ASSB was on the 28th to 45th floor.%0D%0A%0D%0AThen on page 15 of this report we learn the first time of %0D%0A%22Engineers from the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation%22%2C who  %22investigated oil contamination in the debris of WTC 7.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AWhile their names haven%27t been mentioned in this report%2C they also didn%27t come to any conclusion.%0D%0A%0D%0AThat%27s fun.%0D%0A%0D%0AAll we learn%2C but what is already known%2C is the amount of the gallons.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22To date%2C the NY State Environmental Protection Agency %28EPA%29 and DEC have recovered approximately 20%2C000 gallons from the other two intact 11%2C600-gallon underground fuel oil storage tanks at WTC 7...%22%0D%0A%0D%0ASo what%3F%0D%0AWhat%27s here the conclusion%3F %0D%0ANope. Nothing.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...from the Silverstein Properties%92 emergency power system. The data obtained from Silverstein indicate that the pumping rate from their tanks was 4.4 gpm...%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AImpressive statistics. But again%2C no conclusion. %0D%0ADo they imply that we should imagine a melting process by pumps%3F%0D%0ALOL.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt isn%27t mentioned anyway.%0D%0ANothing in this report so far about %22melting%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ABut i%27m patient. It%27s only page 15%2C but i have already a flashback from the B1%2FB2 testimony who talked around the same hot soup and didn%27t come to any conclusion as well.%0D%0A%0D%0AImpressive statistics%2C nothing more. A filler.%0D%0A%0D%0AThen very important for me again %28thanks for posting this report%2C awesome%2C LOL%29%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...If the Silverstein pump had started pumping at 10 a.m.%2C%0D%0Awhen Con Ed shut down power to the building immediately following the collapse of WTC 2%2C and continued pumping until the collapse of WTC 7 at 5%3A20 p.m.%2C less than 2%2C000 gallons would have been%0D%0Aused. The residual 20%2C000 gallons found in the two 12%2C000-gallon tanks%2C therefore%2C can not be used as an indicator of whether or not the Silverstein generator sets were on line and running...%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AThat means%2C no indicator for any evidence of heat. Cool. Important.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut nothing said about degrees anyway...  %0D%0A%0D%0AAnd the report also mentioned%2C that %22the SSB tanks will be pulled from the debris in the near future...%0D%0A%0D%0AThis may or may not give some%0D%0Aindication of the amount of oil still in the tanks when they were crushed. If there is evidence that the majority of diesel fuel was still in the tanks%2C it can be concluded that the SSB system did not discharge diesel oil..%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ANever heard about the SSB tanks again. Maybe sold to India%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AJust read this section very carefully again%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...If there is evidence that the majority of diesel fuel was still in the tanks%2C it can be concluded that the SSB system did not discharge diesel oil..%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0Aand read this%2C please%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22... evidence that indicates that the tanks were low on%0D%0Aoil at the time of rupture%2C and that they were full at the start of the September 11 incident%2C would lend%0D%0Asupport to the hypothesis that the SSB system was operating and pumping oil from these tanks....%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ABut i ask me the whole time%2C why they ignore to conclude%2C if the DIESEL was  ANYWAY the indicator for a COLLAPSE%21%21 %3F%0D%0A%0D%0ASo we have on Page 16 now PHANTOM-DIESEL for a GHOST-COLLAPSE %28%3Dthe word collapse not mentioned at this part of the report%21%21%21%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ABut the report tries now to concentrate on other floors%3A%0D%0A%0D%0AFloor 2%2C most important part for me%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...Currently%2C there are %5Bb%5Dno data available on the post-collapse condition %5B%2Fb%5Dof the OEM 6%2C000-gallon tank located between the 2nd and 3rd floors. %0D%0A%0D%0AFloor 7%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22....The OEM system also included a 275-gallon day tank located on%0D%0Athe 7th floor...%22%0D%0A%0D%0ANo further analysis in this report. Why%3F%0D%0A%0D%0Aand finally a conclusion AGAINST the collapse%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...The 275-gallon tank associated with the American Express generator was located at the west end of%0D%0Athe 8th floor. If full%2C the 275 gallons represent a potential of about 600 MegaJoules%2C which would be enough to cause a serious fire that could spread to other fuels%2C but %5Bb%5Dnot felt to be enough to threaten the%0D%0Astability of the building%92s structural elements%5B%2Fb%5D.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0APerfect for me. BINGO%21%0D%0A%0D%0AAt this part the report%2Fstudy decided to open a new chapter%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A5.5 Timeline of Events. %0D%0AUnimportant for us.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut i read it again.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AGood to know%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...the collapse of WTC 2 %5Bb%5Ddid not significantly affect the roof%2C or the east%2C west%2C and north elevations of WTC 7%5B%2Fb%5D. It is unknown if there was any damage to the south elevation after WTC 2%0D%0Acollapsed%2C but both the covered%2C tubular pedestrian bridge %28see Figure 5-13%29 and the Plaza bridge were still%0D%0Astanding after the collapse of WTC 2...%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ANice. The bridge was still standing. How cute%2C but important for us.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhile phantom -debris after 10%3A20 AM still hit B7 and continued a fire%2C which forced with unknown explanations a collapse on unknown floors%2C a bridge below these floors%2C was still standing.%0D%0A%0D%0AAwesome and that rocks%21%0D%0AI believe what the report said.  It basically never lied but also never comes to any conclusion.%0D%0A%0D%0AAs if i wouldn%27t have known this before. LOL.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22At 10%3A29 a.m.%2C WTC 1 %28the north tower%29 collapsed%2C sending its debris into the streets below. The extent and severity of the resulting damage to WTC 7 are currently unknown....%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AVery convincing for a collapse.%0D%0A%0D%0ANow first grade evidence again.%0D%0A%0D%0AOr should i say kindergarten evidence%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...from ...eyewitness accounts ..it was assumed that the south side of the building was damaged to some degree and that fires in WTC 7 started at approximately this time....%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AAha%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ASo if i believe this report and i will do this%2C no %28gas tank-%3F%29explosion before 10%3A30 AM and no explosion at all.%0D%0A%0D%0AEven if you ignore the CNN video%2C who shows this different%2C it%27s important for us%2C that from now on ONLY FIRE could have started the collapse process.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ASo FIRE.%0D%0A%0D%0APlease search for a MELTING process %28of what%3F%29 and DEBRIS %28from where%3F%29.%0D%0A%0D%0ALet us continue searching for that in this report%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...It does not appear that the collapse of WTC 1 affected the roof%2C or the east%2C west%2C and north elevations%0D%0Aof WTC 7 in any significant way...%22%0D%0A%0D%0AOk.%0D%0A%0D%0ANow Photos %28i don%27t paste them%2C because the report doesn%27t say anyway about the collapse at that time%2C too%29%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...damage to the southwest corner of WTC 7 at approximately%0D%0Afloors 8 to 20%2C 24%2C 25%2C and 39 to 46..%22%0D%0A%0D%0ADoesn%27t matter%2C because no gas tank between 8 to 20%2C 24 and  25 and 39 to 46 %28where the SSB was and they probably even didn%27t discharge diesel oil%2C as we learned%29%0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s funny that the photographs left out Floor 23%2C because THERE was the gas tank of the OEM.%0D%0A%0D%0AThat%27s bad for the report%2C but good for me. %0D%0AWhy didn%27t they just lie at this part%2C LOL.%0D%0A%0D%0AThen DocPaulie would have pasted for us some pictures of Floor 23.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut good for us. No evidence at this part%2C too.%0D%0A%0D%0AStill interesting%3A Verizons and the Post Office%2C who surrounded B7%2C but had luck. They didn%27t collapse. Did they even burn%3FNothing happened to them.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s very fun%2C that the description of the photos are PRO-EWING 2001%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...Note the two mechanical penthouses of WTC 7%0D%0Aare intact...%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0APage 19%21%21%21%0D%0A%0D%0AI wanna read something about the collapse or magic melting steel or any crap like that...BUT THERE IS STILL NOTHING%21%21%21%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ABut they are back at the FIRE now%21%0D%0A%0D%0A5.5.3 Fires at WTC 7%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ABut then%2C surprisingly%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...Currently%2C there is limited information about the ignition and development of fires at WTC 7%2C as well%0D%0Aas about the specific fuels that may have been involved during the course of the fire...%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AAWESOME. ROFL. this report is already dead.%0D%0A%0D%0AThx Doc Paulie.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut let me continue laughing....%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...fires were initially seen to be present on non-contiguous floors on%0D%0Athe south side of WTC 7 at approximately floors 6%2C 7%2C 8%2C 10%2C 11%2C and 19...%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22initially seen%21%22%0D%0A%0D%0ACouldn%27t be better Monthy Phyton. This report rocks.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd again%2C they still didn%27t try just to lie about Floor 23.%0D%0A%0D%0AGUYS%21 there was the gas tank of the OEM. I%27m disappointed%2C LOL.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0APage 23...countdown continues...%0D%0A%0D%0ANow this report struggles a lot and starts to write about %22smoke%22%0D%0A%0D%0AWell%2C smoke definetely isn%27t able to collapse a building.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut i like this slapstick report%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22....With the %5Bb%5Dlimited information%5B%2Fb%5D currently available%2C fire development in this building needs additional%0D%0Astudy. Fires were observed to be located on the lower levels for the majority of the time from the collapse of%0D%0AWTC 1 to the collapse of WTC 7. %0D%0A%0D%0AIt appears that the sprinklers may not have been effective due to the%0D%0Alimited water on site%2C and that the development of the fires was not significantly impeded by the firefighters%0D%0Abecause manual firefighting efforts were stopped fairly early in the day...%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%22....It is currently unclear what fuel may have been present to permit the fires to burn on these lower floors for approximately 7 hours....%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...The change in the color and buoyancy of the smoke as the day progressed may indicate a change in%0D%0Athe behavior of the fires....%22%0D%0A%0D%0AI would like to have a timeline of these colors.%0D%0A%0D%0AYawnnz...oops...wake up...now maybe the interesting part%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A5.5.4 Sequence of WTC 7 Collapse%0D%0A%0D%0A%22..Approximately 7 hours after fires initiated in WTC 7%2C the building collapsed. The start of a timed collapse sequence was based on 17%3A20%3A33%2C the time registered by seismic recordings..%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AThen again%2C the strange undestroyed penthouses%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%7E5%3A21%3A03 p.m. Approximately 30 seconds later%2C Figure 5-21 shows the east mechanical penthouse%0D%0Adisappearing into the building. It takes a few seconds for the east penthouse to %93disappear%94 completely.%0D%0A%0D%0A%7E5%3A21%3A08 p.m. Approximately 5 seconds later%2C the west mechanical penthouse disappears %28Figure 5-22%29%0D%0Aor sinks into WTC 7.%0D%0A%0D%0A%7E5%3A21%3A09 p.m. Approximately 1 or 2 seconds after the west penthouse sinks into WTC 7%2C the whole%0D%0Abuilding starts to collapse. A north-south %93kink%94 or fault line develops along the eastern side as the building%0D%0Abegins to come down at what appears to be the location of the collapse initiation.%0D%0A%0D%0A%7E5%3A21%3A10 p.m. WTC 7 collapses completely after burning for approximately 7 hours.%0D%0AThe collapse appeared to initiate at the lower floors%2C allowing the upper portion of the structure to fall.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ANo conclusion at this part. But this i was waiting for. Whatever.%0D%0ANo surprise.%0D%0AAnd why does the report speculate%2C that %22the collapse appeared to initiate at the lower floors..%22%0D%0A%0D%0AWhich lower floors%3F 8-20 with no gas tanks%3F%3F%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat a lame shit i have to read.%0D%0AEven the testimonies of B1 and B2 tried a bit more to hide.%0D%0A%0D%0AThis is an dumba%24%24 study.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe highlights at the end.%0D%0A%0D%0ANow we learn about the debris from B7%2C which is cool.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22spread mainly westward toward the Verizon building%2C%0D%0Aand to the south. The debris significantly damaged 30 West Broadway to the north%2C but did not appear to%0D%0Ahave structurally damaged the Irving Trust building at 101 Barclay Street to the north or the Post Office at%0D%0A90 Church Street to the east.%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AHow do i like these statistics. For the record%3A%0D%0A%0D%0AVerizon and the Post didn%27t collapse.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ALast hope%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A5.6 Potential Collapse Mechanism%0D%0A%0D%0ANo chance%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...There is no clear evidence of exactly where or on which floor the initiating failure occurred...%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AMore lousy about the 4th floor%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...The best information available indicates that the dining%0D%0Aroom was furnished with tables and chairs. The intensity and duration of a fire involving these furnishings%0D%0Awould not be expected to sufficiently weaken either the trusses or the columns supporting the trusses....%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ANow even oil leakage%2C what lame%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...Fuel oil leakage from the 5th floor is also a%0D%0Apossibility%3B however%2C no evidence of leakage paths in the east end of the second floor was reported....%22%0D%0A%0D%0AOnce again%2C the report quotes itself%3A No evidence about nothing.%0D%0AAwesome.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe %22study%22 continues with more photos%2C which only show dust and as usual%2C doesn%27t prove anything which wasn%27t mentioned in the report anyway.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AAnother last hope%3A  5th Floor scenario%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...Fuel oil was distributed through the 5th%0D%0Afloor in a double-wall iron pipe. A portion of the piping ran in close proximity to Truss 1. However%2C there is%0D%0Ano physical%2C photographic%2C or other evidence to substantiate or refute the discharge of fuel oil from the%0D%0Apiping system....%22%0D%0A%0D%0ANo evidence about fuel oil as a reason for fire or collapse. Period.%0D%0A%0D%0AThen a last try with a hypothesis%2C but non official conclusion%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...hypothesis assumes that it is possible that%0D%0Aboth the inner and outer pipes were severed%2C presumably by debris from the collapse of WTC 1...%22%0D%0A%0D%0Awell...%3F%3F%0D%0A%0D%0Aumpf%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...the oil must be raised to its%0D%0Aflash point temperature of about 60 %B0C %28140 %B0F%29. Because there were fires on other floors of WTC%0D%0A7%2C an assumption of ignition at this level in the building is reasonable%2C but without proof...%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...If the double door to the mechanical equipment room%0D%0Awas either open or fell from its frame at some point%2C or if the door was undercut%2C the spilled fuel oil%0D%0Amight have flowed into the mechanical equipment room%2C enveloping truss members in the main%0D%0A%28hottest%29 portion of the flame....%22%0D%0A%0D%0Awell...this hypothesis didn%27t work out.%0D%0AThe report ends..%0D%0A%0D%0AA short chapter tries to explain the long time lapse between the collapse of WTC 1 and%0D%0Athe collapse of WTC 7.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt %22would be that the masonry wall and door resisted the fire for a number of hours%2C but eventually failed...%22%0D%0A%0D%0Awell%2C nice try%2C but doesn%27t help me for the collapse as well.....%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...At a rate of 30 gpm%2C the fuel would last for about 7 hours%0D%0Aand would produce a fire of about 60 MW...%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AWhich fuel%3F Damnit%3F From which floor%3F%0D%0AThis report is nothing but a superficial potpourri of pseudo-data.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...12%2C000 gallons in the SSB tanks would pump out onto the 5th floor%2C forming a large pool....%22%0D%0A%0D%0Aonce again%2C should i come to the conclusion%2C that PIPES melt the BUILDING or COLLAPSED it.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat does this report imply%2C but doesn%27t tell anyway%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ABS%21%0D%0A%0D%0ABut much better for me%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22..Evaluation of fires on the 3rd to 6th floors is complicated by the fact that these floors were windowless with louvers..%22%0D%0A%0D%0Aand what is this about%3F%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...If the collapse initiated at these transfer trusses%2C this would explain why the building imploded%2C producing a limited debris field as the exterior walls were pulled downward...%22%0D%0A%0D%0AImploded%3F%0D%0Ain my book%2C this is an expression for a explosion of a high tech equipment.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhatever. As promised by DocPaulie%2C this is  not a tinfoil report.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt doesn%27t include a conclusion for a collapse and ignored the reason for the fire.%0D%0AIt finished in scenarios and hypothesis.%0D%0A%0D%0AThis lack comes however to a conclusion about the report itself%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22..To confirm proposed failure mechanisms%2C structural analysis and fire modeling of fuels and anticipated%0D%0Atemperatures and durations will need to be performed...%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%22..Further study of the interaction of the fire and steel%2C%0D%0Aparticularly on the lower levels %28i.e.%2C 1st%9612th floors%29 should be undertaken..%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ABut why they ignored the interaction of the steel%3F%0D%0Awasn%27t that the first explanation for the collapse of B1 and B2 as well%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AAh i forgot...the melting theory was changed there anyway too.%0D%0A%0D%0A5.8.%0D%0ARecommendations%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%95 Additional data should be collected to confirm the extent of the damage to the south face of the%0D%0Abuilding caused by falling debris.%0D%0A%0D%0A%95 Determination of the specific fuel loads%0D%0A%0D%0A%95 Modeling and analysis of the interaction between the fires and structural members are important.%0D%0A%0D%0A%95 Suggested mechanisms for a progressive collapse should be studied and confirmed.%0D%0A%0D%0AAgree with 5.8%21  %0D%0APut this into the trash can please.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0APS%3A%0D%0A%0D%0AThis report is weaker%2C than i hoped.%0D%0AThey didn%27t even try to hide something.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd i still wait for the official testimonies as happened at B1 %2B B2.%0D%0A%0D%0ABetter start searching for a CIA report%2C how the controlled demolition worked and how much fun they had in between.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DGROUND ZERO Forum NYC%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.ourDNA.org%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.delphiforums.com%2Fground_zero2001%0D%0A%0D%0ASupporter of the 911-Scepticism Movement NYC%2C Washington%2C San Francisco%2C Ohio etc...%0D%0A%0D%0ASupport public LIHOP-evidence now%2C SETUP later%21%0D%0A%0D%0AOfficial investigative journalist for http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unansweredquestions.org%0D%0A%0D%0AThe last Washington-911 skepticism forum was on June 10th in National Press Center including Julie Sweeney %28NYC%29%2C J. Michael Springmann %28ex- Jeddah %22CIA%22-Consulate%2C where 10-15 visas for the 911 hijackers had been filed%2C Lorna Brett FAA%2FAirline Accountability%2C Mary Schiavo%2C Esq. FAA%2FAirline Accountability%2C Michael Ruppert %28copvcia%29%2C Tom Flocco %28911- insider trading story%29 and John Judge%2C Air Defenses%2FNORAD%2FPentagon-Specialist etc... %0D%0A%0D%0AThe last NYC- 911-skepticism forum was on May 3rd to 5th in NYC%2C 135 west 42nd St. %28bet. 6th %26 7th Ave%29 at Chashama Theater%2C Times Square.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt included also a panel on May 4th%2C streamed live over the net with panelists from DU%2C guerrillanews%2C GZ%2C Alex Jones.com and a live phone session with Oswald Le Winter %28Portugal%2C Ex-USA%29. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe last SF-911-skepticism forum was a rally in front of the office of Diane Feinstein in January 2002.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe 911-sceptic contents%3A%0D%0Aa%29 geopolitical background %28Carlyle%2C Harken%2C UNOCAL%2C%0D%0ACentGas%2C DynCorp%2C ENRON Broadband%2FTSI%2FTaliban%2C%0D%0AHalliburton%2C BAe%2C Northrup etc..%29%0D%0Ab%29 investigative %2B scientific oddities%2C prior knowledge%2Fearly warnings%2C details for a set-up incl. LIHOP etc..%0D%0Ac%29 current political situation%2C historical comparisons%0D%0AProj. Northwoods%2C Bushistory%2C Ashcrofts%0D%0Adatabase%2Freading lists%2C threads of week%2C lies of war%2C yuppie fascism%2C%0D%0Acivil liberties%2Farrestments etc.. %0D%0Ad%29 political and media analysis plus current support%0D%0Afor 911-investigation %28US congress%3A McKinney%2C Stark%2C%0D%0Aplus opinions Ron Paul etc..%2C AtlantaPoll%2C%0D%0A911-petition with 11000 sigs%2C diff. books from Moore%0D%0Ato Greg Palast%29%2C 911-website projects%2C independent%0D%0Amedia portals etc..%0D%0Ae%29 Insider-oddities %2Bdetails%2C insider-infos%2C last%0D%0Aminute topics%2C %22breaking news%22...%5B%2Ffont%5D|114
123|4|So nice to hear from the folks down at the Asylum|Doc Paulie||01:43:26|07/10/2002|What%27s that Ewing%3F Having trouble figuring out how a building laced with fuel oil%2C on fire%2C coupled with the lack of any meaningful firefighting efforts could simply %22collapse%22%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AAll the meaningless questioning and verbose drivel cannot hide the fact you are seemingly unable to connect even the most obvious dots. I would suggest you look to your need to clasp your preconceived notions as the cause of your lack.%0D%0A%0D%0AYou have proven nothing and presented nothing. You have accomplished nothing more than two sominex would have. Life does not present answers to whiners%2C only seekers with a true intent. I think you left the Truth out a ways back.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5BA HREF%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stand77.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fclinks%2Fmain.cgi%22%5Dthe 9-11 Files because you have questions%5B%2FA%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D|122
124|5|My Problem with Ewing|NewYorkerfromMass||09:39:41|07/10/2002|is that he should be focusing his considerable energies on the shocking%2C no IMMORAL lapse of the airlines%2FFAA in even allowing the possibility of use of jet planes as kamiakaze weapons to exist.%0D%0AI look at this way%3A%0D%0AThe architects and engineers did THEIR jobs%2C which was provide a structure which would withstand the assualt%2C and remain standing long enough to allow evacuation.%0D%0AAll we ask is the FAA%2C etc. etc. do THEIR jobs%2C which is to keep their fucking planes from hitting buildings.%0D%0AEvidence seems abundant that we knew this was a potential threat%2C and we did nothing%21%0D%0AI am so insensced about this that I have made my considerable grievances known to Ellen Mariani of New Hampshire.  She lost her husband on Flight 11.  She is bascially saying %22Fuck You%22 to the govt. appointed %22master%22 overseeing the victim compensation  fund%2C which will basically award 1.5 million per victim.%0D%0AShe has correctly identified it as a %22shut up fund%22%2C for not critcising our government%27s complicity in the horror.%0D%0AMore power to her.%0D%0AEwing%2C and the rest of you%2C I ask that you help her out.%0D%0AThe crime was that THIS WAS ALLOWED TO HAPPEN%21|123
127|6|k..|ewing2001||12:27:28|07/10/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jul-10-02 AT 01:18 PM (ET)[/font][p]Trust me%2C next week%2C after i hopefully get my private stuff fixed%2C i will work on my next LIHOP-article and i hope%2C this will finally force a breakthrough%2C together with a press conference ASAP.%0D%0A%0D%0AHow do i get in touch with Ellen Mariani of New Hampshire%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AWe%27re maybe already in touch with her at unansweredquestions.org%0D%0AWe work together with a handful of victim%27s groups%2C but i can%27t recall all names of these groups.%0D%0A%0D%0AI will definetely put all SETUP-investigations on hold again and concentrate on LIHOP only.%0D%0A%0D%0AIf you would know%2C what i know%2C then you would understand%2C that i need from time to time a break and come back to speculations only.%0D%0A%0D%0ABuilding7 is therefore one of my alltime %22speculations%22.%0D%0A%0D%0AI can already prove%2C that %28and who of%29 the US Admin let both attacks %28911%2Fanthrax%29 happen on purpose%2C but wanna make sure to find a proper form to release all names of those who have been involved in a LIHOP %28plus questions to them to be answered%29 in mainstream public. %0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m not sure if it%27s at this point worthless on the internet only%2C but right now there is no choice anyway%2C even if that would warn or provoke the conspirators again.%0D%0A%0D%0AWe had our last and biggest chance with C%7CSpan%2C but they decided against a historical breakthrough.%0D%0A%0D%0AWith less support of DU lately it doesn%27t make it easier too%2C but our 911-skeptic-movements try to think positive to get everything done on our own%2C with the people who support us.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DGROUND ZERO Forum NYC%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.ourDNA.org%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.delphiforums.com%2Fground_zero2001%0D%0A%0D%0ASupporter of the 911-Scepticism Movement NYC%2C Washington%2C San Francisco%2C Ohio etc...%0D%0A%0D%0ASupport public LIHOP-evidence now%2C SETUP later%21%0D%0A%0D%0AOfficial investigative journalist for http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unansweredquestions.org%0D%0A%0D%0AThe last Washington-911 skepticism forum was on June 10th in National Press Center including Julie Sweeney %28NYC%29%2C J. Michael Springmann %28ex- Jeddah %22CIA%22-Consulate%2C where 10-15 visas for the 911 hijackers had been filed%2C Lorna Brett FAA%2FAirline Accountability%2C Mary Schiavo%2C Esq. FAA%2FAirline Accountability%2C Michael Ruppert %28copvcia%29%2C Tom Flocco %28911- insider trading story%29 and John Judge%2C Air Defenses%2FNORAD%2FPentagon-Specialist etc... %0D%0A%0D%0AThe last NYC- 911-skepticism forum was on May 3rd to 5th in NYC%2C 135 west 42nd St. %28bet. 6th %26 7th Ave%29 at Chashama Theater%2C Times Square.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt included also a panel on May 4th%2C streamed live over the net with panelists from DU%2C guerrillanews%2C GZ%2C Alex Jones.com and a live phone session with Oswald Le Winter %28Portugal%2C Ex-USA%29. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe last SF-911-skepticism forum was a rally in front of the office of Diane Feinstein in January 2002.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe 911-sceptic contents%3A%0D%0Aa%29 geopolitical background %28Carlyle%2C Harken%2C UNOCAL%2C%0D%0ACentGas%2C DynCorp%2C ENRON Broadband%2FTSI%2FTaliban%2C%0D%0AHalliburton%2C BAe%2C Northrup etc..%29%0D%0Ab%29 investigative %2B scientific oddities%2C prior knowledge%2Fearly warnings%2C details for a set-up incl. LIHOP etc..%0D%0Ac%29 current political situation%2C historical comparisons%0D%0AProj. Northwoods%2C Bushistory%2C Ashcrofts%0D%0Adatabase%2Freading lists%2C threads of week%2C lies of war%2C yuppie fascism%2C%0D%0Acivil liberties%2Farrestments etc.. %0D%0Ad%29 political and media analysis plus current support%0D%0Afor 911-investigation %28US congress%3A McKinney%2C Stark%2C%0D%0Aplus opinions Ron Paul etc..%2C AtlantaPoll%2C%0D%0A911-petition with 11000 sigs%2C diff. books from Moore%0D%0Ato Greg Palast%29%2C 911-website projects%2C independent%0D%0Amedia portals etc..%0D%0Ae%29 Insider-oddities %2Bdetails%2C insider-infos%2C last%0D%0Aminute topics%2C %22breaking news%22...%5B%2Ffont%5D|124
128|6|Allowed to happen|ramblin_dave||13:56:58|07/10/2002|You said %22The crime was that THIS WAS ALLOWED TO HAPPEN%21%22%0D%0A%0D%0ABut my read of your comments is that the attacks were allowed by inaction on necessary security measures. I believe that elements within our government%2C including Bush to some degree%2C knew the attacks were coming and stepped aside to let them happen%2C for political and strategic advantage. Even if the airlines and the FAA had been %22doing their jobs%22%2C a way would have been found to circumvent their efforts and the atatcks would have happened anyway.|124
129|7|strategy|ewing2001||14:07:43|07/10/2002|Ramblin%2C%0D%0A%0D%0Ai hope you still got that i run LIHOP only as a public strategy.%0D%0AWhat i really think%2C won%27t be addressed in public.%0D%0AWe have to imply on our press conference or any other public TV appearance that %22they%22 %28we have their names%29 let the attack %28or any collapse%29 happen on purpose.%0D%0A%0D%0AAs soon as they are in denial%2Cwe will get the rest in public too who will prove the rest. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DGROUND ZERO Forum NYC%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.ourDNA.org%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.delphiforums.com%2Fground_zero2001%0D%0A%0D%0ASupporter of the 911-Scepticism Movement NYC%2C Washington%2C San Francisco%2C Ohio etc...%0D%0A%0D%0ASupport public LIHOP-evidence now%2C SETUP later%21%0D%0A%0D%0AOfficial investigative journalist for http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unansweredquestions.org%0D%0A%0D%0AThe last Washington-911 skepticism forum was on June 10th in National Press Center including Julie Sweeney %28NYC%29%2C J. Michael Springmann %28ex- Jeddah %22CIA%22-Consulate%2C where 10-15 visas for the 911 hijackers had been filed%2C Lorna Brett FAA%2FAirline Accountability%2C Mary Schiavo%2C Esq. FAA%2FAirline Accountability%2C Michael Ruppert %28copvcia%29%2C Tom Flocco %28911- insider trading story%29 and John Judge%2C Air Defenses%2FNORAD%2FPentagon-Specialist etc... %0D%0A%0D%0AThe last NYC- 911-skepticism forum was on May 3rd to 5th in NYC%2C 135 west 42nd St. %28bet. 6th %26 7th Ave%29 at Chashama Theater%2C Times Square.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt included also a panel on May 4th%2C streamed live over the net with panelists from DU%2C guerrillanews%2C GZ%2C Alex Jones.com and a live phone session with Oswald Le Winter %28Portugal%2C Ex-USA%29. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe last SF-911-skepticism forum was a rally in front of the office of Diane Feinstein in January 2002.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe 911-sceptic contents%3A%0D%0Aa%29 geopolitical background %28Carlyle%2C Harken%2C UNOCAL%2C%0D%0ACentGas%2C DynCorp%2C ENRON Broadband%2FTSI%2FTaliban%2C%0D%0AHalliburton%2C BAe%2C Northrup etc..%29%0D%0Ab%29 investigative %2B scientific oddities%2C prior knowledge%2Fearly warnings%2C details for a set-up incl. LIHOP etc..%0D%0Ac%29 current political situation%2C historical comparisons%0D%0AProj. Northwoods%2C Bushistory%2C Ashcrofts%0D%0Adatabase%2Freading lists%2C threads of week%2C lies of war%2C yuppie fascism%2C%0D%0Acivil liberties%2Farrestments etc.. %0D%0Ad%29 political and media analysis plus current support%0D%0Afor 911-investigation %28US congress%3A McKinney%2C Stark%2C%0D%0Aplus opinions Ron Paul etc..%2C AtlantaPoll%2C%0D%0A911-petition with 11000 sigs%2C diff. books from Moore%0D%0Ato Greg Palast%29%2C 911-website projects%2C independent%0D%0Amedia portals etc..%0D%0Ae%29 Insider-oddities %2Bdetails%2C insider-infos%2C last%0D%0Aminute topics%2C %22breaking news%22...%5B%2Ffont%5D|128
130|7|All I know is this....|NewYorkerfromMass||14:59:41|07/10/2002|There were at least 2 previous cases where it was known that the intent of a hijacking was to use the plane as a weapon and crash it into a civilian target%3A  %0D%0AParis- where the plane was stormed and hijackers killed%2C and %0D%0Athe Phillipines%2C where hijacking was prevented beforehand and the kamikaze scheme was later detected.%0D%0A%0D%0AAlso%2C we now know that NORAD has scenarios wherein they will shoot down an incoming international flight threatening the U.S.%0D%0A%0D%0ASo it seems to me that the airlines%2FFAA were 100%25 responsible for what happended due to their negligence.%0D%0A%0D%0AThey were their planes%2C they should pay.%0D%0A%0D%0A|128
131|8|100%25 responsible%3F|vincent_vega||15:19:26|07/10/2002|  You don%27t think the terrorists were responsible even a tiny-weenie bit%3F  %0D%0A%0D%0A I really can%27t think of ANY measure that would have prevented these hijackings short of airmarshalls on the aircraft.  Even the implements used...boxcutters...were not considered %22weapons%22 before 9-11 but tools.  Who would have thought they would have been used to take over an aircraft%3F  Even reinforced doors would not have prevented cockpit access.  Pre 9-11 who would have refused to open the door when flight attendant after flight attendant is having their throats cut%3F  You talk of precedent but the fact is those are in the minority not the majority of hijackings pre 9-11.   |130
132|9|Look at the consequences|NewYorkerfromMass||16:12:12|07/10/2002|One or 2 flight attendants dead vs. 3000 dead.%0D%0ANot to mention the billions in losses%2C both in life and other.%0D%0ASorry to be so cold%2C but reinforced doors WERE the answer.%0D%0AOf course the hijackers are responsible%2C but they were essentially aided in the success of their crime.|131
133|10|Hindsight...|vincent_vega||16:58:58|07/10/2002|  And just how were the aircrews supposed to know the hijackers were going to crash the aircraft%3F%3F%3F%3F  %0D%0A%0D%0A Pre 9-11 all airline standard procedures are to cooperate with hijackers.  The 9-11 hijackers reportedly said if the crew cooperates no one would get hurt.  This has been the standard response to hijacking since the 1970s.   I doubt even all the hijackers knew they were on a sucicide mission.%0D%0A%0D%0ANo doubt the doors would have been opened.  |132
134|11|Unacceptable|NewYorkerfromMass||17:43:32|07/10/2002|so%2C cooperation was pre-approved to include giving controls of the plane over%3F%0D%0AUnacceptable.%0D%0AEl-Al knew this.%0D%0ASo %28I suspect%29 did we.%0D%0A|133
135|5|All the meaningless questioning and verbose drivel ...|plaguepuppy||22:29:47|07/10/2002|You have shown yourself capable of nothing but snide personal attacks and ugly putdowns.  %0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fhome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2Fwsb%2Fmedia%2F56016%2Fsite1055.gif%0D%0A%0D%0ATake two Sominex and go seek the damn truth somewhere else...|123
136|6|No explosion here%2C right%3F|plaguepuppy||22:34:32|07/10/2002|Another leisurely collapse of a building warmed by burning office furniture%3A%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fhome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2Fwsb%2Fmedia%2F56016%2Fsite1051.jpg|135
137|7|Or here...|plaguepuppy||22:46:52|07/10/2002|http%3A%2F%2Fhome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking%2Fwsb%2Fmedia%2F56016%2Fsite1049.jpg%0D%0A%0D%0APlease note debris flying %5Bb%5Dupward%5B%2Fb%5D from the building above the level of collapse.  Just another ordinary %22softens from the heat and slumps to the ground%22 kind of collapse.  Happens in every high-rise fire%2C right%3F%0D%0A  |136
138|8|Where%3F|targetpractice||23:15:45|07/10/2002|Please tell me where you see debris flying upward%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AThere is no way you can make that conclusion from a still picture taken from the ground.|137
139|9|Here...|plaguepuppy||23:39:59|07/10/2002|It%27s not obvious%2C but if you look closely at the clusters of white-looking fragments being thrown out from above the collapse %28upper portion of the photo toward the top%29 you will notice that there are linear groupings that seem to angle out and up from the north side of the tower.  Although the actual velocities cannot be measured the linear arrangements do indicate an upward component of motion.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ll look for a video clip if you would find that more convincing%2C but this particular angle is not available in any of the videos I%27ve seen.  There are good videos%2A showing very energetic lateral expulsion of pulverized debris%2C which is just as hard to explain - where does the energy come from to eject thousands of tons of steel perpendicular to the direction of collapse%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd someone %28NewYorkerfromMass%3F%29 please explain to me how all that well-cured concrete is turned to a fine powder%3F  What is the mechanism and where does the energy come from%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AP.Pup%0D%0A%0D%0A%2A see the two %22Anomalies%22 articles on my web page%3A http%3A%2F%2Fhome.attbi.com%2F%7Ejmking|138
143|10|Pulverizing concrete|NewYorkerfromMass||09:13:07|07/11/2002|...not very hard to do%2C especially for concrete that is 30 years old.  %0D%0AYou see%2C%0D%0Aconcrete continues to cure %28dry%29 for years after initial setting.%0D%0AIn the end%2C it is essentially just a bunch of sand and rocks %28aggregate%29 held together by the cement.%0D%0AIn the actual collapse%2C the pulverization process was accomplished by the action of 110 levels moving downwards- the inertia of a falling level impacting the inertia of each %28as yet to collapse%29 level below it.%0D%0A110 individual impacts will release a LOT of energy%2C and grind up a LOT of concrete into so much dust.|139
146|11|Huh%3F|plaguepuppy||01:18:19|07/12/2002|I may not be an architect%2C but I know that concrete get stronger%2C not weaker as it cures.  Having tried to set bolt anchors in the walls of a lab in one of the main buildings at MIT %28%7E60 yr. old concrete at the time%29 I can tell you that well-cured concrete is extremely hard.  The chemical reactions of the %22cementation%22 process that binds the sand and aggregate continue at a slow pace over the years and actually strengthen the bonding.%0D%0A%0D%0AAs to the %22action of 110 levels moving downwards%22%2C how do you account for the large amounts of fine concrete dust being ejected  from very early in both collapses%3F  In the north tower only the top %7E20 floors have begun to move at the outset%2C and are not moving fast%2C while at the same time we see fine powdered concrete powder flying out all around.  What actual mechanism %28grinding%2C shock from blast waves%2C etc.%29 could convert those 4%22 slabs of reinforced concrete into a fine powder at the %5Bb%5Dtop%5B%2Fb%5D of a collapsing building%3F|143
148|12|yes%2C Hard %3D Brittle|NewYorkerfromMass||08:03:10|07/12/2002|that is%2C concrete loses plasticity over time as the moisture content diminshes%2C meaning it is more prone to developing cracks and breaking down into smaller and smaller pieces over time.%0D%0A|146
151|13|But not %3D weak|plaguepuppy||02:51:56|07/13/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-02 AT 03:15 AM (ET)[/font][p]Yes it loses plasticity%2C but the bond energy holding it all together actually increases.  You aren%27t really claiming that %28absent weathering or other damage%29 concrete actually gets weaker with age%2C are you%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AMy point being that it takes energy to reduce intact concrete to little pieces%2C and the smaller the pieces the greater the energy needed for the work of pulverization.  And the concrete from the WTC was reduced to very fine dust%2C on the order of a few microns.  It appears that almost all of the concrete %28110 floors of one acre by 4%22 reinforced concrete%29 was reduced to this fine dust%2C which would require a very large amount of energy.  You can%27t both extract that energy from the collapse and also use it to accelerate things downward %28yes%2C this is about conservation of energy%29 so the collapse should be greatly slowed.  Yet the best measurements of collapse speed %28MIT%2C FEMA%2C Alex%2C etc.%29 indicate that it was within measurement error of a free-fall.|148
145|1|Here%27s a good analyisis for Pup.|vincent_vega||16:58:51|07/11/2002|%0D%0A%5Burl%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbsnews.com%2Fstories%2F2002%2F03%2F07%2Fattack%2Fmain503217.shtml%5B%2Furl%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%22He saw right away that with the intense fire%2C the buildings were in trouble. He knew the towers were made of steel%2C and that steel loses its rigidity at temperatures above 1000 degrees Fahrenheit. %22It becomes%2C not melted%2C but mushy%2C like wet clay%2C%22 says Astaneh. When the buildings collapsed%2C he was not surprised. %22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Throughout the fall%2C Astaneh went to the yard. For weeks at a time%2C he visited daily%2C examining the steel as it arrived. While welders cut the steel into smaller pieces%2C he prowled around%2C looking for key %22members%2C%22 as the beams and columns are known.%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%22He has catalogued and photographed a few dozen members and set aside about ten key pieces for further study. He has also kept assorted smaller fragments%2C which he took back to Berkeley for chemical analysis. %22%0D%0A%0D%0A%22He also came across severely scorched members from 40 or so floors below the points of impact. He believes that the planes obliterated the elevator walls%2C allowing burning fuel to pour down into the building%2C igniting blazes hundreds of feet below the main fire. %22When the plane hit%2C%22 he says%2C %22the walls around the elevator shaft were gone%2C just thrown away.%22 %0D%0A|0
147|2|zzzz|ewing2001||04:45:52|07/12/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jul-12-02 AT 04:47 AM (ET)[/font][p]%22a building laced with fuel oil%2C on fire%2C coupled with the lack of any meaningful firefighting efforts could simply %22collapse%22%0D%0A%0D%0A...then DocPaulie%2C please write the authors of this disneyland study%2C they should add your %22conclusion%22.%0D%0A%0D%0AOr are you just one of them anyway%3F%0D%0AWhy are your replies often so boring and obvious%3F%0D%0AIf you think you still can insult anyone of this topic after 10 months with your same standard pamphlets%2C then you obviously really missed 90%25 of the other things we really solved.%0D%0A%0D%0AI was here only on visit.%0D%0A%0D%0AMaybe you are the real twin-toil-hatter%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DGROUND ZERO Forum NYC%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.ourDNA.org%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.delphiforums.com%2Fground_zero2001%0D%0A%0D%0ASupporter of the 911-Scepticism Movement NYC%2C Washington%2C San Francisco%2C Ohio etc...%0D%0A%0D%0ASupport public LIHOP-evidence now%2C SETUP later%21%0D%0A%0D%0AOfficial investigative journalist for http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unansweredquestions.org%0D%0A%0D%0AThe last Washington-911 skepticism forum was on June 10th in National Press Center including Julie Sweeney %28NYC%29%2C J. Michael Springmann %28ex- Jeddah %22CIA%22-Consulate%2C where 10-15 visas for the 911 hijackers had been filed%2C Lorna Brett FAA%2FAirline Accountability%2C Mary Schiavo%2C Esq. FAA%2FAirline Accountability%2C Michael Ruppert %28copvcia%29%2C Tom Flocco %28911- insider trading story%29 and John Judge%2C Air Defenses%2FNORAD%2FPentagon-Specialist etc... %0D%0A%0D%0AThe last NYC- 911-skepticism forum was on May 3rd to 5th in NYC%2C 135 west 42nd St. %28bet. 6th %26 7th Ave%29 at Chashama Theater%2C Times Square.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt included also a panel on May 4th%2C streamed live over the net with panelists from DU%2C guerrillanews%2C GZ%2C Alex Jones.com and a live phone session with Oswald Le Winter %28Portugal%2C Ex-USA%29. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe last SF-911-skepticism forum was a rally in front of the office of Diane Feinstein in January 2002.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe 911-sceptic contents%3A%0D%0Aa%29 geopolitical background %28Carlyle%2C Harken%2C UNOCAL%2C%0D%0ACentGas%2C DynCorp%2C ENRON Broadband%2FTSI%2FTaliban%2C%0D%0AHalliburton%2C BAe%2C Northrup etc..%29%0D%0Ab%29 investigative %2B scientific oddities%2C prior knowledge%2Fearly warnings%2C details for a set-up incl. LIHOP etc..%0D%0Ac%29 current political situation%2C historical comparisons%0D%0AProj. Northwoods%2C Bushistory%2C Ashcrofts%0D%0Adatabase%2Freading lists%2C threads of week%2C lies of war%2C yuppie fascism%2C%0D%0Acivil liberties%2Farrestments etc.. %0D%0Ad%29 political and media analysis plus current support%0D%0Afor 911-investigation %28US congress%3A McKinney%2C Stark%2C%0D%0Aplus opinions Ron Paul etc..%2C AtlantaPoll%2C%0D%0A911-petition with 11000 sigs%2C diff. books from Moore%0D%0Ato Greg Palast%29%2C 911-website projects%2C independent%0D%0Amedia portals etc..%0D%0Ae%29 Insider-oddities %2Bdetails%2C insider-infos%2C last%0D%0Aminute topics%2C %22breaking news%22...%5B%2Ffont%5D|145