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The "Call" from Barbara Olson: Fact, or Key Lie?

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Canitbe (100 posts) Click to EMail Canitbe Click to send private message to Canitbe Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-24-02, 04:43 PM (ET)
The "Call" from Barbara Olson: Fact, or Key Lie?
Did Barbara Olson really call her husband Ted, moments before FL 77 supposedly crashed into the Pentagon?

Ted Olson is reported to have contacted CNN (less than 12 hours after the alleged crash in which his wife perished), to tell them about the "phone call" from Barbara.

Mr. Olson was not personally quoted in the news accounts of the alleged phone call.

What's even more curious is that Mr. Olson is said to have told CNN that his wife made the call from a phone attached to the back of a seat on the aircraft. She supposedly used that phone because she didn't have her cell phone, because it was in her purse, and she didn't have her purse with her, in the back of the aircraft (which is where she supposedly was, along with everyone else on board FL 77, except for the terrorist(s) "flying the B757).

The phone she is said to have used, would have required a credit card to be swiped to make the phone operable. Thus, she would have had to borrow someone else's credit card in order to make a phone call. Ted supposedly told CNN that she called him collect. However; once a credit card is swiped, you can begin using the phone to make calls. So, no collect call would have been made.

If there are records reflecting a call to the Justice Department (where Ted was on the morning of 9-11), and a charge on a credit card for use of a phone aboard FL 77, that would be strong evidence that the "call" story is true.

If no such phone call was made, then much of the official story line about 9-11 events is subject to even more doubt.

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  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 Huh? sally343434 Dec-24-02 1
   Is this something new? stickdog 12/28/2002 52
 Why the collect call instead of using credit boloboffin Dec-24-02 2
   Why the collect call? DulceDecorum 12/26/2002 17
       When Barbara made the call, all she knew... boloboffin 12/26/2002 26
       Let me add that if I'm on the plane and the terrorists are somehow stickdog 12/28/2002 54
           I don't doubt it. boloboffin 12/28/2002 57
       Other unresolved issues (assuming B.O. DID call Ted). Canitbe 12/28/2002 82
   And it must be nice to be so above it all stickdog 12/28/2002 56
       I believe Ted said... boloboffin 12/28/2002 58
 Who cares? elastic Dec-24-02 3
   Pardon me DulceDecorum 12/24/2002 11
 Yes, curious LARED Dec-24-02 4
 It's bullsh** Skittles Dec-24-02 5
 Ted Olsen was interviewed about a week after 9-11 DoYouEverWonder Dec-24-02 6
   Ted Olson on MSNBC boloboffin 12/24/2002 7
       What, no call-forwarding? DulceDecorum 12/26/2002 19
           Your link doesn't work. boloboffin 12/26/2002 20
   This might help clarify some things. Canitbe 12/24/2002 8
       Clarifies a lot for me, thanks. boloboffin 12/24/2002 9
   Enough to baffle the curious, isn't it? Canitbe 12/25/2002 14
       Oprah, Larry and the others... DulceDecorum 12/26/2002 23
           Every story except this one.... boloboffin 12/26/2002 27
 glue pretzel4gore Dec-24-02 10
 We know the lying started from the git go Gman Dec-24-02 12
 please, the man's wife died qandnotq Dec-24-02 13
 Ted Olson on Lying JackRiddler Dec-25-02 15
 Amazing Concidence HarryLime Dec-25-02 16
   So? boloboffin 12/26/2002 18
       Let's see, DulceDecorum 12/26/2002 21
           Let's try this again....So? boloboffin 12/26/2002 22
               Cell phones, cell towers and flying. DulceDecorum 12/26/2002 24
                   And this is all important because.... boloboffin 12/26/2002 25
                       This is very important because; LARED 12/26/2002 28
                           Foolish rant DulceDecorum 12/26/2002 30
                               Anything to avoid answering my questions - tut, tut, tut. boloboffin 12/26/2002 32
                       Because the official story has so many holes in it Aries 12/26/2002 29
                           I'm sorry, weren't we discussing Olson's phone call? boloboffin 12/26/2002 31
                               Since your signature line DulceDecorum 12/26/2002 33
                                   I will not answer questions from Dulce until she answers mine. boloboffin 12/27/2002 34
                                       Every time you paint yourself DulceDecorum 12/27/2002 48
                                           Dulce, you and I have history. boloboffin 12/28/2002 55
                                               No past, no present and definitely, no future DulceDecorum 12/29/2002 96
                                                   We may have the opposite problem here. Canitbe 12/29/2002 97
                               No need to be defensive... Aries 12/27/2002 35
                                   Red Herring boloboffin 12/27/2002 36
                                       "Begging the question" Aries 12/27/2002 37
                                           Another red herring... boloboffin 12/27/2002 38
                                               OK, you got me, counsellor! Aries 12/27/2002 39
                                                   The discussion continues (at last!).... boloboffin 12/27/2002 40
                                                       Would you settle for phone records? Canitbe 12/27/2002 41
                                                           Phone records would be good... boloboffin 12/27/2002 42
                                                               And we take his word...why? Aries 12/27/2002 43
                                                               THAT'S what makes it so easy to "sell" to the non-thining public. Canitbe 12/27/2002 46
                                                                   Should say non-thinKing public. Sorry. n/t Canitbe 12/27/2002 47
                                       airline-provided cellphone DulceDecorum 12/27/2002 50
                                           Sorry to burst your bubble, Dulce. boloboffin 12/28/2002 51
                                               Burst who's bubble? DulceDecorum 12/29/2002 84
                                                   God, you're dense. boloboffin 12/29/2002 89
                                                       Point taken DulceDecorum 12/29/2002 98
 aaannnnd? So the conclusion is? I'm confused... CaptainMidnight Dec-27-02 44
   The stewardess on the flight that hit the first tower DoYouEverWonder 12/28/2002 60
   Here's the link, DoYouEverWonder 12/28/2002 61
 You take his word because you don't have the evidence to prove he lied... boloboffin Dec-27-02 45
   Not if he is on record as a liar... Aries 12/27/2002 49
       Ted Olson's lies boloboffin 12/28/2002 53
           source? HarryLime 12/28/2002 59
               You got me, Harry. boloboffin 12/28/2002 66
                   Better Question? Canitbe 12/28/2002 68
                       Please see my post #70, "I believe I just got ungot." boloboffin 12/28/2002 72
                   Well, I believe I just got un-got. boloboffin 12/28/2002 70
                       You deserve every penny the Gov't is paying you. Canitbe 12/28/2002 73
                           Do you have any evidence that all DNA was destroyed... boloboffin 12/28/2002 75
                   thanks HarryLime 12/28/2002 81
                       There is, as in all forensic cases, a chain of evidence... boloboffin 12/29/2002 85
                   And I still want to know DulceDecorum 12/29/2002 83
                       I've already answered this question. boloboffin 12/29/2002 86
           Back to logical fallacies again Aries 12/28/2002 62
               No logical fallacies... boloboffin 12/28/2002 64
                   "I want to believe" Aries 12/29/2002 91
               boloboffin is anablep Canitbe 12/28/2002 65
                   ROTFLMAO! boloboffin 12/28/2002 67
 Phone Records would help resolve a lot of these questions. DoYouEverWonder Dec-28-02 63
   Records would help disperse the fog. Ergo, don't expect them. Canitbe 12/28/2002 69
       I have made many requests to people with the records. boloboffin 12/28/2002 71
           How did you make your requests and to whom did you make them? Canitbe 12/28/2002 74
                   In other words, DoYouEverWonder 12/28/2002 77
                       Another red herring. boloboffin 12/28/2002 78
                           So you can talk about whatever you wish DoYouEverWonder 12/28/2002 79
                               Why don't we just talk about the subject at hand? boloboffin 12/29/2002 88
                   boloboffin: You Can No Longer Be Taken Seriously. Canitbe 12/28/2002 80
                       Did you ever take me seriously in the first place? boloboffin 12/29/2002 87
                           the only fact that matters pretzel4gore 12/29/2002 90
                                   Your confusion is due to my poor wording. boloboffin 12/29/2002 94
                               I don't see anything in your post that I disagree with, pretzel4gore. boloboffin 12/29/2002 93
                                   This is getting hard to load. undergroundrailroad 12/29/2002 99

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Messages in this topic

sally343434 (89 posts) Click to EMail sally343434 Click to send private message to sally343434 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-24-02, 04:53 PM (ET)
1. Huh?
> The phone she is said to have used, would have required a
> credit card to be swiped to make the phone operable.

Not true. You can use seatback phones without a credit card.

> Ted supposedly told CNN that she called him collect.
> However; once a credit card is swiped, you can begin using the
> phone to make calls. So, no collect call would have been made.

See above reply. You can pick up the phone and make a collect call without using any credit card.

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stickdog (911 posts) Click to EMail stickdog Click to send private message to stickdog Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 03:11 AM (ET)
Reply to post #1
52. Is this something new?
Airphones, IIRC, require a credit card swipe before they display anything other than "Swipe your credit card."
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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-24-02, 05:04 PM (ET)
2. Why the collect call instead of using credit
If Barbara Olson had used someone's else credit card, she probably would have reversed the charges so as not to put such an high rate on the person's credit card. To the "hostages" there would have been a possibility that the call last for hours, and who has the credit to withstand a $10/minute charge to their credit card forever? By reversing the charges to the Justice Department, the other person's credit card would only have been charged 5 dollars for the connection fee.

https://www.aa.com/content/travelInformation/duringFlight/onboardTechnology.jhtml

All of this has made me wonder whether Barbara Olson is herself responsible for no other calls being made off that plane. Many people would have recognized her, and since the terrorists evidently told the hostages to call, she might have persuaded people not to, since that's what the terrorists wanted. Just one call to the Justice Department, to let the government know what was happening (which would also preserve her scoop on the whole story). Well, that's neither here nor there.

Well, you are right about the evidence for the call. I'd expect to see a five dollar charge on somebody's credit card that's associated with Flight 77 (someone might have had a loved one's credit card) and a huge collect call expense from the Justice Department.

Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

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DulceDecorum (541 posts) Click to EMail DulceDecorum Click to send private message to DulceDecorum Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-26-02, 00:19 AM (ET)
Reply to post #2
17. Why the collect call?
To all my fellow posters here at the Democratic Underground:

Let me herby proclaim, candidly and without reservation, that if we are ever together on a plane that has been hijacked and I get a chance to call using your credit card, I will NOT call collect.
If we survive, I will totally reimburse you for much much more than the cost of that call, and if we die, like we probably will, what do you care about that charge?

Which one of you would let a credit card telephone charge stand between you and staying alive?

A call that "could last for hours," Boloboffin?
They should be so lucky.
How many HOURS worth of fuel did they have?

Think man.
If they turned off the transponders, they did not want to be tracked. Those calls would track them for sure.
There is something seriously wrong with this story.

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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-26-02, 10:34 AM (ET)
Reply to post #17
26. When Barbara made the call, all she knew...
...all she could know was that the plane was hijacked. In that case, the plane would have simply landed, and the call still could go on for hours. Even one hour would have put a 600 dollar charge on someone's credit card, and since her husband was the Solicitor General, why not let the government pay for that call?

How do air traffic controllers track airplanes with cell phones? This is some new technology I'm unfamiliar with. How does anyone track the airplane with cell phones being used on board? Pray, enlighten us, oh Dulce....

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stickdog (911 posts) Click to EMail stickdog Click to send private message to stickdog Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 03:31 AM (ET)
Reply to post #17
54. Let me add that if I'm on the plane and the terrorists are somehow
letting my fellow passengers Ghandi, Jesus, Lincoln, General Schwarzkopf and Edward R. Murrow use their airphones, it won't stop me from trying to use mine as well.
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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 03:39 AM (ET)
Reply to post #54
57. I don't doubt it.
As I said, that part was me thinking out loud, and now it does seem pretty silly.

Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists. Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two
plus two make four. If that is granted, all
else follows. -- George Orwell, 1984

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Canitbe (100 posts) Click to EMail Canitbe Click to send private message to Canitbe Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 11:24 PM (ET)
Reply to post #17
82. Other unresolved issues (assuming B.O. DID call Ted).
Let us assume, for a moment, that Mrs. Olson DID call Ted from an airplane on 9-11. Even if "records" were released substantiating a cell phone (or seat phone) call from an airliner to Ted Olson, I'd still want to know:

1. WHAT aircraft the calls were made from.

2. WHERE the plane was at the time (D.C. area, PA, or _)?

Maybe the records would be sufficient. For example, if the calls were made on an AA phone, maybe the records would support THAT claim (the claim that she called from FL 77)-- assuming the records could be authenticated, of course.

It is entirely possible that Mrs. Olson DID call Ted --- but from WHERE? Was she aboard the plane known as FL 93?

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stickdog (911 posts) Click to EMail stickdog Click to send private message to stickdog Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 03:38 AM (ET)
Reply to post #2
56. And it must be nice to be so above it all
that you don't carry your own credit card with you on plane trip.
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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 03:43 AM (ET)
Reply to post #56
58. I believe Ted said...
...that Barbara didn't have her phone with her, that she was hustled to the back without being allowed to retrieve it. I'm betting she didn't have her purse with her either, which is where her credit cards would be. However, someone would have a wallet on them, with their own credit cards. That's where she gets the credit card to swipe, and then reverses the charges to the Justice Department. It's a story consistent with all revealed facts.

Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists. Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two
plus two make four. If that is granted, all
else follows. -- George Orwell, 1984

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elastic (813 posts) Click to EMail elastic Click to send private message to elastic Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-24-02, 05:07 PM (ET)
3. Who cares?
Why would anyone believe Ted Olson? He has already said that lying is ok,under oath.
No links,which is it Art bell or the Rupert fraud?

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DulceDecorum (541 posts) Click to EMail DulceDecorum Click to send private message to DulceDecorum Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-24-02, 07:21 PM (ET)
Reply to post #3
11. Pardon me
but it appears that the bit about lying under oath does not entend to Democrats, especially popularly elected ones who are called upon to publicly discuss their sex lives.
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LARED (615 posts) Click to EMail LARED Click to send private message to LARED Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-24-02, 05:08 PM (ET)
4. Yes, curious
What's even more curious is that Mr. Olson is said to have told CNN that his wife made the call from a phone attached to the back of a seat on the aircraft

Mr. Olsen is said to have said this by whom? Also if it true, so what?

Oops silly me. I failed to notice the first sentence that said;

Did Barbara Olson really call her husband Ted, moments before FL 77 supposedly crashed into the Pentagon?

It is amazing this stuff still has any legs at all.

Do right until the stars fall, and if they do, continue to do right.

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Skittles Donating Member (7590 posts) Click to EMail Skittles Click to send private message to Skittles Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-24-02, 05:25 PM (ET)
5. It's bullsh**
the only person on the plane to make a call was Ms. Olson? It's garbage.
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DoYouEverWonder (387 posts) Click to EMail DoYouEverWonder Click to send private message to DoYouEverWonder Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-24-02, 05:53 PM (ET)
6. Ted Olsen was interviewed about a week after 9-11
I do not remember the day, channel or infotainer that interviewed him but I believe it was the Saturday night after the attack. He claimed that Barbara actually called him 3 different times. I do not recall anything about her using the phone on the back of the seat. I had the impression she was on her cell and that was why she called numerous times was because she kept losing the connection. That wouldn't have happened on the airplane phone.

My point is that there is a very lengthy interview on tape regarding Ted Olsen's account of what happened.

Keep in mind unlike the flight that crashed in PA, Barbara was the only person on this flight that was able to make any phone calls at all.

Olsen claims that Barbara originally was booked on a flight for the night before but changed her plans at the last minute because it was his birthday. Olsen said birthdays were a big deal to her and she wasn't about to miss celebrating with him. What I don't get is why did she have to change her plans at the last minute? They've been married a number of years, you would think she would know when his birthday was and wouldn't have scheduled herself to go out of town to begin with?

Also, it would be interesting to find out what time those three calls were made and what did Olsen do after the first call. You would think he would call the Pentagon but Rumsfeld claims he didn't know anthing was going on until the Pentagon had been hit after 9:30 AM. If me and half of America knew at 9:10 AM that the WTC had been attacked, why didn't Rumsfeld have a clue?


It's the sounds of freedom callin'
Ringing up to the skies
It's the sound of the old ways a-fallin'
You can hear it if you try

Phil Ochs

PBWY
DYEW

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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-24-02, 06:01 PM (ET)
Reply to post #6
7. Ted Olson on MSNBC
This is the first story I ran across (skipping nimbly over the several links to "Mother of All Lies" websites):

http://www.msnbc.com/news/635771.asp

According to this, Ted first called Ashcroft's private line, which was unanswered. He then called the Justice Department command center to tell them about the plane Barbara was on.

Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

  Top

DulceDecorum (541 posts) Click to EMail DulceDecorum Click to send private message to DulceDecorum Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-26-02, 00:44 AM (ET)
Reply to post #7
19. What, no call-forwarding?
LAST EDITED ON Dec-26-02 AT 01:35 AM (ET)

Apparently Ted Olson does not keep track of Ashcroft's schedule, and neither, it would appear, does his secretary.
http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2001/September/458ag.htm
On edit:
http://216.239.53.100/search?q=cache:4P7CPGCVzFYC:www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2001/September/458ag.htm+Ashcroft+elementary+school&hl=en&ie=UTF-8


Oh well, at least the book got lots of publicity.
http://www.usatoday.com/life/books/2002-08-12-911-sales-boost_x.htm

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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-26-02, 01:04 AM (ET)
Reply to post #19
20. Your link doesn't work.
The Ashcroft schedule one. Regardless, after Ted Olson received a phone call from his wife on board a hijacked plane minutes after two hijacked planes had flown into the WTC, we might excuse him for not recalling the details of John Ashcroft's schedule, you know? And the interview says he called Ashcroft's private line, whatever that might be. That might have been his cellphone for all we know.

I'm with you on the book publicity, though. That wasn't a rash act in a crisis, it was one cynical last stab from the grave at Bill and Hillary. Did he do anything with the profits?

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Canitbe (100 posts) Click to EMail Canitbe Click to send private message to Canitbe Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-24-02, 06:02 PM (ET)
Reply to post #6
8. This might help clarify some things.


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/steveseymour/lies911/lies.htm

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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-24-02, 06:23 PM (ET)
Reply to post #8
9. Clarifies a lot for me, thanks.
Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists. Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two
plus two make four. If that is granted, all
else follows. -- George Orwell, 1984

  Top

Canitbe (100 posts) Click to EMail Canitbe Click to send private message to Canitbe Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-25-02, 01:37 PM (ET)
Reply to post #6
14. Enough to baffle the curious, isn't it?
You raised some very interesting points. I'm sure that Mr. Olson would relish the opportunity to go on "Oprah" or "Larry" and clear up some of these things. Think they've invited him?
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DulceDecorum (541 posts) Click to EMail DulceDecorum Click to send private message to DulceDecorum Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-26-02, 02:46 AM (ET)
Reply to post #14
23. Oprah, Larry and the others...
http://www.oprah.com/tows/pastshows/tows_past_20010920_slid07.jhtml

Unbeknown to the hijackers, passenger and political commentator Barbara Olson, 45, was able to call her husband -- Solicitor General Ted Olson -- on her CELLULAR PHONE.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/09/03/ar911.phone.calls/

Olson was among the passengers of American Airlines Flight 77, which was hijacked and flown into the Pentagon on Sept. 11. Before the crash, she managed to call her husband, Solicitor General Ted Olson, twice on her cellphone, relaying bits of information about the hijacking -- it was from Olson that the world first learned about the use of "box cutters" as a weapon -- and asking his advice, he later recalled on "Larry King Live," about "what she should tell the pilot."
It's an unimaginable situation. And simply because of the way she kept her wits about her, Olson deserves to be honored for her ability to tough it out the best she could, making virtually the only record we have of what happened on that particular doomed ride.
http://archive.salon.com/books/review/2001/11/19/olson/

HER HUSBAND SAID SHE CALLED HIM TWICE ON A CELL PHONE from American Airlines Flight 77, which was en route from Washington Dulles International Airport to Los Angeles.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/11/pentagon.olson/

A second American plane, Flight 77 from Dulles, Va., to Los Angeles, a Boeing 757, crashed into the Pentagon at 9:43. There were 58 passengers, four flight attendants and two pilots aboard. Fox News commentator Barbara Olson, a former congressional staffer and Republican activist, was on the plane. Officials said she made two phone calls to her husband, Solicitor General Ted Olson, from her CELL PHONE before the crash. Olson told her husband that the plane had been hijacked by terrorists wielding "knife-like" instruments.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34177,00.html

Associates of her husband said after she and the other passengers were herded into the back of the plane, SHE PULLED OUT HER CELL PHONE AND TWICE CALLED HER HUSBAND'S OFFICE at the Justice Department. When she reached her husband, she told him the plane was being hijacked and urged him to quickly call the FBI.
CNN, the network for whom Mrs. Olson worked, reported that she also told her husband that the hijackers were wielding knives and cardboard cutters and that their motives were not readily apparent.
http://usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/09/11/victims-olson.htm

American Airlines flight 77 was traveling from Washington to Los Angeles before it slammed into the pentagon. Television commentator Barbara Olsen was on the plane. She called her husband, Ted Olsen, the US solicitor general, telling him the attackers had knife- like weapons apparently made with razor blades. Her CELL PHONE then went dead, she called back asking her husband for advice on how to handle the dire situation. The phone went dead again and that was the last Ted heard from her.
http://www.insideedition.com/inside_plane.htm

Barbara Olson kept her cool. In the hysteria and terror of hijackers herding passengers to the rear of the plane, SHE RETRIEVED HER CELL PHONE and called her husband, Ted, the solicitor general of the United States. She informed him that he had better call the FBI — the plane had been hijacked. According to reports, Barbara was still on the phone with Ted when her plane plunged in a fiery explosion directly into the Pentagon.
Barbara risked having her neck slit to warn the country of a terrorist attack. She was a patriot to the very end.
This is not to engage in the media's typical hallucinatory overstatement about anyone who is the victim of a horrible tragedy. The FURTIVE CELL PHONE call was an act of incredible daring and panache. If it were not, we'd be hearing reports of a hundred more cell phone calls. (Even people who swear to hate cell phones carry them for commercial air travel.)
http://www.nationalreview.com/coulter/coulter091301.shtml

There was not even the grace of instant death. Instead, there was time to call from the sky over Virginia, fingers pumping CELL PHONES, terrified passengers talking to loved ones for one final time.
Herded to the back of the plane by hijackers armed with knives and box-cutters, THE PASSENGERS AND CREW MEMBERS of American Airlines Flight 77 -- INCLUDING THE WIFE OF SOLICITOR GENERAL THEODORE OLSON, a Senate staffer, three D.C. schoolchildren and three teachers on an educational field trip and a University Park family of four headed to Australia for a two-month adventure -- WERE ORDERED TO CALL RELATIVES to say they were about to die.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=metro/dc/schools&contentId=A14365-2001Sep11¬Found=true

Mrs Olson told him that her plane had been hijacked and that the passengers and crew, including the pilots, had been herded to the back of the plane by hijackers armed with knives and box-cutters.
She said THE HIJACKERS DID NOT KNOW SHE WAS CALLING ON THE PHONE. She asked him what she should tell the pilot.
http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/mnt/html/webspecial/WTC/wtcnews215.html

One friend, speaking on condition of anonymity, said BARBARA OLSON USED HER CELLULAR PHONE TWICE TO CALL HER HUSBAND from American Flight 77, which was headed from Washington to Los Angeles.
She reportedly said, “Can you believe this? We are being hijacked.” Law enforcement officials said she also reported that the attackers brandished knifelike instruments.
Her husband confirmed the reports that she was in the midst of the hijacking. “I wish it wasn't so, but it is,” he said.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/627249.asp

Washington - Cowering in the back of a hijacked airplane yesterday, Barbara Olson made a frantic last-minute phone call to her husband, U.S. Solicitor General Theodore Olson.
Moments before the Los Angeles-bound American Airlines flight slammed into the Pentagon, Barbara Olson, a well-known conservative, told her husband that the plane had been hijacked by a group of men wielding knives and cardboard cutters, said family friend Bob McConnell. She made no mention of guns or other weapons, McConnell said.
Talking to her husband by CELL PHONE at his Justice Department office, Barbara Olson asked him what she should tell the pilot to do, possibly indicating that the pilot was in the back of the plane, where hijackers had shepherded the 58 passengers.
"He didn't know what to do," McConnell said of Theodore Olson, though he was aware from TV reports that another plane had earlier slammed into the World Trade Center.
http://www.newsday.com/ny-usols122362099sep12,0,278898.story

On the day she died, Barbara Olson had delayed her planned flight so that she could have breakfast with her husband on his 61st birthday. Shortly after take-off, she called the Justice Department, where her husband worked, to say that the aircraft had been hijacked and the passengers had been herded into the back.
SHE HAD LOCKED HERSELF IN THE LAVATORY AND HAD TO CALL 10 TIMES BEFORE SHE COULD PERSUADE THE OPERATORS TO ACCEPT THE CALL CHARGES. Her last words to her husband - who had time to tell her that two planes had already hit the World Trade Centre - were "What do I tell the pilot to do?"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/14/db01.xml

You would think that the telephone operators would be interested in a hijacking, now wouldn't you?
I mean, Flight 93 got a bit more interest and cooperation from the telephone company and local police.

An unnamed passenger on the same flight (93) locked himself in one of the plane's lavatories and called 911. Dispatchers who answered the phone said he repeatedly said: "We are being hijacked, we are being hijacked, this is not a hoax."
"He heard some sort of explosion and saw white smoke coming from the plane and we lost contact with him," said Westmoreland dispatcher Glenn Cramer.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1540158.stm

Now, the interesting part is that pilots and others in the FAA do not like, and expressly forbid, the usage of cellphones aboard aircraft. Cell phones are widely believed to interfere with the electronics within the aircraft and this interference can cause the pilot to lose control of the plane resulting in a crash.
Why would a terrorist or anyone else for that matter, risk losing control of the situation they had gone to great lengths to gain control of? They were not squeamish about killing people, so why the sudden consideration for the families yet to be left behind?
If they were supposed to be using the plane as a weapon, then they would be most anxious to keep control of the flight mechanism. It is therefore incredible that a hijacker would expressly instruct the passengers huddled together in the back of the aircraft to commence making calls on their cell phones. What is far more likely is that the pilots, or someone who watched the Lone Gunmen was trying to jam what the plane's controls. This would tally with BOTH LIVE pilots also being in the back of the plane and not knowing what to do. It would also indicate that the plane was in effect, flying itself and that no-one aboard was actually in charge.

She told me that she had been herded to the back of the plane. She mentioned that they had used knives and box cutters to hijack the plane. She mentioned that THE PILOT HAD ANNOUNCED THAT THE PLANE HAD BEEN HIJACKED. I believe she said that. And she -- I had to tell her about the two airplanes that had hit the World Trade Center.
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/14/lkl.00.html

Barbara Olson, 46, was locked in the toilet when the passengers and crew were ordered to the back of the airliner. A spokesman for Mr Olson said: "She called and said she was locked in the toilet and the plane had been hijacked.
"She said they had knives. They had rounded up the passengers at the back of the plane. She referred to them as more than one. There was nothing she could do. She said to her husband: 'What do I do?'"
The call ended seconds BEFORE the crash.
<snip>
Mrs Olson had placed TWO CALLS from the plane - THE FIRST to the Justice Department, where her husband worked, TO INFORM THE AUTHORITIES OF THE HIJACKING.
The fact that the crew were ordered to join the passengers indicated that the hijackers included trained pilots capable of aiming the aircraft at their targets.
Mrs Olson THEN PHONED HER HUSBAND, who is known primarily for having argued the case for President Bush before the US Supreme Court last year during his election recount contest with Al Gore.
She asked her husband what she should tell the pilot to do. "It was typical of her," one friend said. "She was always the type to try to take charge."
A witness to the crash, Mike Walter, said: "It was like a Cruise missile with wings.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/12/wwife12.xml

This is the initial hole in the Pentagon wall.
Oserve the size. Observe the debris.
Observe the color of the flame and the smoke.

And now that we have firmly established that it was indeed a cell phone that was used by Barbara Olson (Olsen?) on that fateful day, let us now see what her husband has to say about the matter.

Then his secretary told him that Barbara was on the line. "My first reaction when I heard she was on the phone was relief, because I knew that she wasn't on one of those two airplanes." But Barbara then explained calmly that she had been herded to the back of the Boeing 757 she was on, along with the other passengers.
"She had had trouble getting through, because SHE WASN'T USING HER CELL PHONE, SHE WAS USING THE PHONE IN THE PASSENGER'S SEATS," says Olson. "I guess she didn't have her purse, because she was calling collect, and she was trying to get through to the Department of Justice, which is never very easy."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/main.jhtml?xml=/family/2002/03/05/folsen05.xml

OLSON: We are -- we segued back and forth between expressions of feeling for one another and this effort to exchange information. And then the phone went dead. I don't know whether it just got cut off again, because the signals from CELL PHONES coming from airplanes don't work that well, or whether that was the impact with the Pentagon.
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/14/lkl.00.html

I have said it before and I will say it again, the whole Pentagon thing is a total mess and every single story you hear changes more times than a chameleon walking across plaid.

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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-26-02, 11:02 AM (ET)
Reply to post #23
27. Every story except this one....
The one that's been in my signature for quite some time:


On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists. Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

But I digress, as you meant to happen when you threw out the red herring of the Pentagon hole picture. (By the way, a great deal of the hole is obscured from view by the smoke coming from the ruined white car, but you already knew that, didn't you, Dulce?)

Now let's sum up what you've "proven" in your post: There are lots of reports that Barbara Olson used her cell phone, but Ted Olson said she used the seatback phone. And then he said cell phone in another interview.

Is there such a drastic difference between the seatback phones and a personal cellphone? One goes to satellites, the other to ground towers. Don't they experience the same problems in transmission from airplanes? Is it so grevious a sin to refer to the seatback phone as a cellphone? Evidently it is, in Dulce's world.

Ted Olson said "cellphone"; therefore Flight 77 didn't fly into the Pentagon. Oh, but I forgot, you don't do conclusions...so once again, I ask: What is your point for all of this?

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pretzel4gore Donating Member (593 posts) Click to EMail pretzel4gore Click to send private message to pretzel4gore Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-24-02, 07:08 PM (ET)
10. glue
it's a sticky glue made up of sticky lies...from a liar (b. olsen) to another liar (ted olsen) to the biggest liar of all CNN....the mediawhores have had a year plus to doctor the record...sow confusion and mistrust, expecting to help the 'busheviks' come up the middle, which they have.
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Gman Donating Member (708 posts) Click to EMail Gman Click to send private message to Gman Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-24-02, 07:49 PM (ET)
12. We know the lying started from the git go
They lied about why Bush wasn't flying back to DC
They lied about the White House as a target
They lied... more than I care to look back up and list here.

I've no doubt the story about the bitch Barbara Olsen (God rest her soul, and I'm only saying that since its Christmas Eve) is a lie.

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qandnotq (201 posts) Click to EMail qandnotq Click to send private message to qandnotq Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-24-02, 09:39 PM (ET)
13. please, the man's wife died
who cares about the phone call? why would you be looking for evidence he lied about it? so what if he did, people do crazy things when they are grief stricken.
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JackRiddler (105 posts) Click to EMail JackRiddler Click to send private message to JackRiddler Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-25-02, 03:12 PM (ET)
15. Ted Olson on Lying
Sydney Morning Herald
Lying to the public is all right, says Washington's chief lawyer
http://old.smh.com.au/news/0203/20/world/world10.html

(This statement was covered in many other reports.)

Ted Olson is comforted at the memorial service for his wife
‘I Can’t Just Sit Back’
U.S. Solicitor General Ted Olson recounts Barbara Olson’s final words from Flight 77 and discusses both his controversial backing of an anti-terrorism bill and his wife’s posthumous book about the Clintons
http://www.msnbc.com/news/635771.asp

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HarryLime (10 posts) Click to EMail HarryLime Click to send private message to HarryLime Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-25-02, 08:10 PM (ET)
16. Amazing Concidence
It's an amazing coincidence that the key figure saying that he received a distress call from someone aboard one of the hijacked planes is also the President's lawyer to the Supreme Court regarding Florida's election. The odds of that happening seems pretty high.
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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-26-02, 00:22 AM (ET)
Reply to post #16
18. So?
I don't really see what that proves. Since the plane left from Washington, there's a distinct probability that someone connected to the Bush Administration would have lost a loved one on the plane. It's really no amazing coincidence at all.
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DulceDecorum (541 posts) Click to EMail DulceDecorum Click to send private message to DulceDecorum Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-26-02, 01:25 AM (ET)
Reply to post #18
21. Let's see,
Ashcroft stops flying commercial and is on a plane owned by the FAA on that particular day.
It is Ted's birthday so his wife celebrates it with him the night before and has a birthday breakfast with him before leaving him alone on his birthday to go do something that is more important to her. She is not planning to be back that night.
She gets on a plane on the same day on which several Pentagon generals have abruptly cancelled flights.
Ted and Barbara are supposedly popular in conservative circles and they knew NOTHING!!??!!
She often calls him during the day on the "batphone" but today, on the hijacked plane, she apparently does not use that number, preferring to involve as many people as possible.
CNN and Fox news are alerted almost immediately about unusual choice of weapons carried by the hijackers.
He comes home that night and and finds a love note she left on his pillow.
No evacuation to a safe house for Ted, or his guests that night who included Clarence Thomas. Terrorists apparently do not attack at night.

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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-26-02, 01:59 AM (ET)
Reply to post #21
22. Let's try this again....So?
What are you saying? Is this leading us to conclude something? What would that be, Dulce?
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DulceDecorum (541 posts) Click to EMail DulceDecorum Click to send private message to DulceDecorum Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-26-02, 03:40 AM (ET)
Reply to post #22
24. Cell phones, cell towers and flying.
LAST EDITED ON Dec-26-02 AT 03:44 AM (ET)

Aviation systems, like instrument landing systems that came into service before 1989, have never been tested for resistance to mobile phone emissions and are still being installed in aircraft. Britain’s Civil Aviation Authority (AA) has confirmed that cell radiation interferes with critical flight electronics, and tests have uncovered that the varying power in the output of cellular phones can lead to fast-changing interference patterns. Newer equipment has been designed to withstand higher levels of interference using screened cables and Faraday cages, especially on fly-by-wire planes like the Airbus.
Dan Hawkes, head of avionics at the AA's Safety Regulation Group, says, "A cell phone emits more power the further it is from base station. So as an aircraft climbs, the mobile signal increases in power, boosting the interference level at a critical time in flight.”
http://198.65.147.194/English/Science/2000/7/article1.shtml

Nokia, for example, has this warning in its user manual, which accompanies all cell-phone purchases: "Switch off on aircraft. Do not use phones on airplanes as this can cause interference with the navigational equipment. Also, the use of phones on airplanes is illegal."
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41276,00.html

Thursday 22nd July 1999
Neil Whitehouse, 28, was convicted of "recklessly and negligently endangering" a British Airways flight carrying 91 passengers from Madrid to Manchester after he ignored repeated requests from the crew to switch off his phone.
"You had no regard for the alarm that would be caused to passengers by your stubborn and ignorant behaviour," Judge Anthony Ensor told Whitehouse at Manchester crown court. Ensor said the case was the first time anyone had been prosecuted in Britain for using a mobile phone aboard a plane and there was no precedent to guide him on sentencing.
The sentence should serve as a warning that mobile phone use on planes, which is illegal in Germany and the United States, would be treated as seriously as violence on board aircraft, Ensor said.
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2072771,00.html

September 16 2002
A British judge sentenced a 23-year-old man to four months in prison for playing a video game on his cell phone during a flight.
Airlines ban the use of cell phones during flights because of concerns that the devices interfere with aircraft electronic systems.
http://www.cellular.co.za/news_2002/091602-uk_man_sentenced_to_prison_for_u.htm

The FCC bans them because it says their signals could interfere with other cell-phone calls on the ground. Yet, as Purdy and others point out, the phone calls made from the hijacked flights last year went through just fine.
"Problems exist and sometimes cell phones are the only way to communicate in a disaster," Purdy said.
CNN commentator Barbara Olson called her husband twice on a cell phone to tell him the plane she had boarded had been hijacked.
She told her husband, Solicitor General Ted Olson, that the hijackers were wearing RED BANDANAS and brandishing knives and box cutters, and that they had herded the passengers to the back of the plane.
http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,55040,00.html

It is against the law to use phones other than those provided by airlines when in-flight for several good reasons. The first is that they may interfere with flight communications equipment. While on, wireless phones continue to try to communicate with the wireless system. In order for a wireless system to know where a phone is, it sends out short, frequent bursts of data. When a cell phone is on it is transmitting — even when we are not using it.
http://www.outlook4mobility.com/commentaries/sept272001.htm

Like I said before, turning on multiple cell phones would make that plane show up like nobody's business. It is more than the opposite of turning the transponder off because not only will everyone and then some, know where that plane is, but also it may just mess up some of the flight controls. Even more so if a bunch of people huddled together are all sending at the same time.

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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-26-02, 10:26 AM (ET)
Reply to post #24
25. And this is all important because....
??????
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LARED (615 posts) Click to EMail LARED Click to send private message to LARED Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-26-02, 11:14 AM (ET)
Reply to post #25
28. This is very important because;
When the passengers were being flown to the super secret invisible landing strip where they would all get new identities after submitting skin samples to ensure their DNA was found at the Pentagon, they would have been told by the "CIA/FBI/NSA/ hijackers" not to break FCC regulation by using their cell phones in such an illegal and dangerous manner that could have caused the plane to have electronic problems.

On the other hand perhaps the hijackers told the passengers to use their cells phones in order to provide an electronic signature so the plane could be operated by remote control. But wait!!! The cell phones may interfere with the remote control. Aha, this may explain why they hit the Pentagon instead of the WH. The real target as Bush really likes the ranch much better than the big old WH. And Americans would really be pissed if the WHO was blown up and then the secret new tyrannical government could have been sweep in in a day or two.

It's all very complicated trying to piece together bits of unrelated information attempting to create the illusion that all of this is very important.

End of foolish rant, and Merry Christmas

Do right until the stars fall, and if they do, continue to do right.

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DulceDecorum (541 posts) Click to EMail DulceDecorum Click to send private message to DulceDecorum Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-26-02, 03:15 PM (ET)
Reply to post #28
30. Foolish rant
would be right, and no, I do not mean correct.
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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-26-02, 04:14 PM (ET)
Reply to post #30
32. Anything to avoid answering my questions - tut, tut, tut.
Is there any point to all of the things you say, Dulce? That's the question - what are you trying to say? What are the conclusions you would have us reach with all the things you say?

Dulce Decorum, party of one - your hot seat awaits...

Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists. Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two
plus two make four. If that is granted, all
else follows. -- George Orwell, 1984

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Aries Donating Member (167 posts) Click to EMail Aries Click to send private message to Aries Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-26-02, 02:25 PM (ET)
Reply to post #25
29. Because the official story has so many holes in it
that any moderately curious individual would wonder what the real story is. Or is your position that we are getting the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

BTW, regarding the Flight 77 reference in your signature,maybe you could explain something...

How could Hani Hanjour, who was a terrible pilot, as described here:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,52408,00.html

WASHINGTON — Federal aviation authorities were alerted in early 2001 that an Arizona flight school believed one of the eventual Sept. 11 hijackers lacked the English and flying skills necessary for the commercial pilot's license he already held, flight school and government officials say.

perform the acrobatic flying maneuver performed here, without touching the ground, with the AUTOPILOT ON?

http://www.unansweredquestions.org/timeline/2001/bostonglobe112301.html


Authorities contend that Hanjour was at the controls and that the plane may have been on autopilot.

Controllers say the plane crossed the Pentagon at 7,000 feet and then made a sweeping circle to the right, during which time it dropped down to near surface level.

The plane swept low over a traffic-jammed highway and slammed into the western face of the building at 9:45.

"Do not arouse the wrath of The Great and Powerful Oz! I said come back tomorrow! The Great Oz has spoken! Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"
--The Wizard of Oz

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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-26-02, 04:12 PM (ET)
Reply to post #29
31. I'm sorry, weren't we discussing Olson's phone call?
This constant switching of topic is rather puzzling; wouldn't you rather stick to the subject at hand?

My position has been pretty consistent, by the way: I support a full investigation into the events related to the 9/11 attacks, and I'm opposed to silly stories that destroy the credibility of people who are asking for that investigation.

And aren't autopilots capable of handling banking manuveurs and descents?

Now that the red herring is again dealt with, could we begin talking about Barbara Olson's phone call? You know, the subject of this thread?

Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists. Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two
plus two make four. If that is granted, all
else follows. -- George Orwell, 1984

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DulceDecorum (541 posts) Click to EMail DulceDecorum Click to send private message to DulceDecorum Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-26-02, 07:52 PM (ET)
Reply to post #31
33. Since your signature line
specifically states that CALLS (plural) were made, Boloboffin, are you able to eleaborate on this?

****Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists.****

Are you able to elaborate on ANY claim you make in your signature line?
So far you have only demonstrated your ability to delight the lurking Freepers.

So tell us, did Barbara Olson call from a cell phone or from a seatback phone using a credit card and reversing the charges as you have claimed in posts #2 and #26 above?
Why didn't that woman have her own credit card?
Did the suicide hijackers want some plastic to use in hell?

There are many and several who claim that it is impossible to actually complete calls from cell phones aboard planes travelling at the high speed.
What do you and your sheepish engineer say?

Please recall that Ted Olson later changed his story.

Someone suggested that we cut Teddy-boy some slack and put his forked-tongued-tale down to grief at the loss of his wife.
She was his third wife.
He is accustomed to spousal separation and he is not known to be particularly sympathetic towards those in Gitmo who cannot recall what exactly they confessed to in the previous torture session.
I should hope that as a trained lawyer and the nation's Solicitor General, he would be able to recall every detail of the last conversation with his ever-loving wife who was about to die.
He does not appear to have had any qualms about the 500 pound bomb to be dropped on innocent Afghans in the name of Barbara Olson. He seems to have found satisfaction in that and he said that it would have pleased her.

Let me again remind you that this man is the Solicitor General of the United States of America and that he is apparently satisfied with the evidence (or lack thereof) that has been presented to him personally and professionally concerning the passing of his his wife and others aboard Flight 77 and the subsequent need to destroy Afghanistan.
Incidentally, whatever DID happen to Osama bin Laden?

But I digress.
Boloboffin, explain to us how and tell us once and for all,
Is it possible to to make a cell phone call from aboard an airplane travelling at high speed?

Explain to us how the cell towers pick up the calls.
Tell us why the FCC forbids it.
Tell us why the FAA forbids it.
Tell us why the seat phones are supposedly OK.
Substantiate the allegation in your sig line.

(OK people, watch closely, rant without fact will follow.
Let us see how Boloboffin gets out of having supported the seatphone AND the cellphone.
Watch the insults fly!!!
We might just get another few pictures that have to be pulled because of immature content. Then Lared is going to jump in with some "scientific" opinion that would be rejected by the leg on Galvani's frog.
After Beavis and Butthead mess the whole thing up even further and totally contradict the brass at the FAA and FCC, and themselves, and each other, then they will go back to their "don't-confuse-me-with-facts" or "everything-you say-is-irrelevant-and-meaningless" defence.
At that point they may just call in someone more sophisticated to do a three-card-monte to halt torrent of facts that will come pouring out to refute the utter crap that we about to be fed.
These are good times to grow edible mushrooms, the conditions here are just perfect.)

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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-27-02, 01:42 AM (ET)
Reply to post #33
34. I will not answer questions from Dulce until she answers mine.
Period. It is YOUR turn on the hotseat, dear Dulce, dear Dulce.

Again and again we ask you, Dulce Decorum, to state what you believe happened that day. Clearly and distinctly. Tell us once and for all, Dulce, what you believe happened. Take a stand and expose your own conclusions to the light of criticism. You are so very good at dishing out the abuse, but not so willing to have your own conclusions suffer the same searing spotlight.

You know where the questions asked of you are. Go there and answer them. Then, and only then, will I answer any questions from you. Period. End of subject.

And my signature line stands.

Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists.
Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two
plus two make four. If that is granted, all
else follows. -- George Orwell, 1984

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DulceDecorum (541 posts) Click to EMail DulceDecorum Click to send private message to DulceDecorum Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-27-02, 07:57 PM (ET)
Reply to post #34
48. Every time you paint yourself
LAST EDITED ON Dec-27-02 AT 08:23 PM (ET)

into a corner, you call out my name.

I have said it before and I will say it again.
I had nothing to do with any of this.
Neither Ernst Stavro Blofeld, nor his cat, report to me.
Heck, I can't even arrange a date between Mini-me and Minnie-mimi.
All I know is what I read in the papers.
(Perhaps that is why we are so confused.)

What does it matter what I believe?
Tell me Boloboffin, tell us all.
What is the relevance?
What is the meaning?
How do the theories, opinions, or personal beliefs of DulceDecorum affect the events of September 11, 2001?
How does it change ANYTHING?
Who, besides you, gives a fig?

Just suppose I say something to make you happy, Boloboffin,
(and to shut you up):
The moon is made of green cheese, that is what I believe.
Santa Claus is black.
George Bush is a liberal. Both of them.
You can fool all of the people all of the time.
I believe in everything you, Boloboffin, have written in your signature line and everything you have ever posted. Your conclusions are mine. Your thoughts are my thoughts. Your beliefs are my beliefs. Your truth is my truth.
signed
DulceDecorum.

There. I said it.
Now, how has that changed the reality of anything?

And now, supposing that I have told you what I believe, deep deep down in the bottom of my heart, what are you now going to do about it?
Call me names?
Answer questions that are asked of you?
Or whine like a whipped cur?

You once felt so strongly that you wrote out your signature line. Now when you are questioned about your beliefs, you cannot stand up for them but instead run away snivelling and complaining that the questioner should be first be forced to state and defend their beliefs before you begin to contemplate answering questions on yours.
You do not even know what you yourself believe. Like a cockroach you scurry from the light.

Boloboffin, you say:
****Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists. ****

You are implying that Ted Olson was lying when he specifically stated that Barbara was using a SEAT PHONE. Your signature line indicts him, Boloboffin. Unless, of course, YOU can demonstrate that OTHER calls were made from that plane using cell phones and NOT seat phones. It is YOUR sig line. Pity you dare not and can not defend it.
Now go find someone else to hide behind.
And stop calling your Solicitor General a liar.

PS. You still owe Brig. Gen. Chip Diehl (Air Force) an apology for calling him a liar for saying that there was not a single piece of the jet to be seen anywhere.

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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 03:35 AM (ET)
Reply to post #48
55. Dulce, you and I have history.
LAST EDITED ON Dec-28-02 AT 03:36 AM (ET)

You have shown a pattern of hit-and-run posting, always twisting what others say, incorrectly quoting your source material to support your twisted questions, but never, EVER, declaring an actual position. I have answered your questions and answered your questions, and still you twist and misquote and rhapsodize ever so darkly, but you never, EVER, climb up on the hot seat of declaring your own conclusions about any of this.

You claim you have no conclusions, but you do. You argue too doggedly not to have your own suspicions about what happened that day. That is, unless you are nothing but a disruptor, someone here to slander all Democrats with a peculiar brand of ludicrous conspiracy theory.

Notice I said "ludicrous conspiracy theory," implying that some conspiracy theories are not ludicrous.

Believe me, I am not in a corner here. Anything you ask, I research and develop an answer. Your cellphone discrepancy question is fully answered, and actually already exists on this thread in response to someone who clearly doesn't have any agenda here but the truth. You have but to trot yourself back to the Pentagon Crash thread Parts 1-6 and start DEALING WITH WHAT WE SAY, and my answers to your questions will return. For your convienence, all of my substantive posts have been collected in thread 6.

Hell, I'll be satisfied if you would actually read what anablep has been posting. She's a hell of a lot more together than my theories, but your single response to her glanced off of the top of one of her well written posts to dismiss them all. That's when I finally decided that my position with you was Put Up or Shut Up.

Start dealing with what we are saying on this side of the debate, and the give and take will begin again.

What are your suspicions, deep down in your heart? Was it a cruise missile that fateful day? Was it a truck bomb? Was it space aliens? Was it the Knights Templar? Or was it Flight 77, as eyewitnesses and forensic evidence clearly show?

Dulce Decorum, party of one, your hot seat is ready...

Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists. Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two
plus two make four. If that is granted, all
else follows. -- George Orwell, 1984

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DulceDecorum (541 posts) Click to EMail DulceDecorum Click to send private message to DulceDecorum Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-29-02, 04:27 PM (ET)
Reply to post #55
96. No past, no present and definitely, no future
C. "Troublemaker" provocateur. This type tries to get people within a group pissed off at each other, or tries to manipulate an editor, forum participant, etc. into a compromising position. The theme here is discredit, divide and conquer, and/or annoy the hell out of progressive folks. In one instance at a forum I know of, a provocateur kept engaging another forum participant in a dialogue, seeking to draw out incriminating comments that could possibly be construed as "unpatriotic." When the unwitting progressive forum participant finally fell into the trap, he was soon paid a visit by the Boys in Black (FBI).
http://www.unknownnews.net/cs020602.html
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Canitbe (100 posts) Click to EMail Canitbe Click to send private message to Canitbe Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-29-02, 06:09 PM (ET)
Reply to post #96
97. We may have the opposite problem here.
The moderator of THIS forum has censored at least one message I know of regarding an effort to expose a provocateur. This same provocateur (or wanna-be) is a self-proven purveyor of outright untruths, but the moderator has censored at least one message meant to alert other posters to that fact.
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Aries Donating Member (167 posts) Click to EMail Aries Click to send private message to Aries Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-27-02, 08:21 AM (ET)
Reply to post #31
35. No need to be defensive...
although I wonder why you want others to provide answers, when you are unwilling to do so yourself. My point is that your signature line contains its own question, to which you apparently don't have the answer, that being: How was the plane controlled on its final approach to the Pentagon? To date, the facts of what happened are not consistent with the official explanation that has been provided.

>And aren't autopilots capable of handling banking manuveurs and descents?

Not knowing anything about avionics, my guess would be MAYBE, ONLY IF operated by an expert, which Hani Hanjour was not. Even an expert would appear to be hard-pressed to pull off that particular maneuver.

Here's an description of the difficulties of that particular feat of flying for someone with Hanjour's skills, by someone who does know something about it:

From http://www.911-strike.com/remote_skills.htm

Imagine a 25-30 year old man that has never driven anything bigger than a family sedan, and never driven over 55 MPH. Then take this man and put him in an 18 wheeler in a city he does not know. Tell him he must drive that truck across town at 80 MPH to an address he does not have a map to find. Just tell him it is southwest from where you are. Make him do this at the rush hour. Then if he does arrive at the correct address, he must back that truck up to the loading dock and do it perfectly the first time. And he must do all this without incident of any sort. Then realize the pilots were flying an aircraft 2000 times larger than anything they had ever flown before. And they were not flying 50% faster than they had ever flown, but 400% faster. Then factor in that these young men knew they would be going to meet Allah. Imagine how their hearts would be racing and their hands shaking. And we get three direct, dead-center hits. That is what stretches my imagination, not the remote control part.

"Do not arouse the wrath of The Great and Powerful Oz! I said come back tomorrow! The Great Oz has spoken! Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"
--The Wizard of Oz

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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-27-02, 09:47 AM (ET)
Reply to post #35
36. Red Herring
LAST EDITED ON Dec-27-02 AT 09:48 AM (ET)

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#herring

Red herring

This fallacy is committed when someone introduces irrelevant material to the issue being discussed, so that everyone's attention is diverted away from the points made, towards a different conclusion.

Both the issue of Hani Hanjour's piloting skills and of my defensiveness is irrelevant to the discussion at hand - Barbara Olson's phone calls from the airline-provided cellphone aboard Flight 77.

ON EDIT: fixed a formatting mistake.

Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists. Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two
plus two make four. If that is granted, all
else follows. -- George Orwell, 1984

  Top

Aries Donating Member (167 posts) Click to EMail Aries Click to send private message to Aries Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-27-02, 10:37 AM (ET)
Reply to post #36
37. "Begging the question"
You might want to review the following from the link you provided:

Petitio principii / Begging the question

This fallacy occurs when the premises are at least as questionable as the conclusion reached. Typically the premises of the argument implicitly assume the result which the argument purports to prove, in a disguised form. For example:

"The Bible is the word of God. The word of God cannot be doubted, and the Bible states that the Bible is true. Therefore the Bible must be true.

Begging the question is similar to circulus in demonstrando, where the conclusion is exactly the same as the premise.

Plurium interrogationum / Many questions

This fallacy occurs when someone demands a simple (or simplistic) answer to a complex question.

"Are higher taxes an impediment to business or not? Yes or no?"

Complex question / Fallacy of interrogation / Fallacy of presupposition

This is the interrogative form of Begging the Question. One example is the classic loaded question:

"Have you stopped beating your wife?"
The question presupposes a definite answer to another question which has not even been asked. This trick is often used by lawyers in cross-examination, when they ask questions like:

"Where did you hide the money you stole?"
Similarly, politicians often ask loaded questions such as:

"How long will this EU interference in our affairs be allowed to continue?"
or

"Does the Chancellor plan two more years of ruinous privatization?"
Another form of this fallacy is to ask for an explanation of something which is untrue or not yet established.


"Do not arouse the wrath of The Great and Powerful Oz! I said come back tomorrow! The Great Oz has spoken! Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"
--The Wizard of Oz

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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-27-02, 10:59 AM (ET)
Reply to post #37
38. Another red herring...
Are you going to play at this all day or are you going to get to the subject at hand?

Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists. Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two
plus two make four. If that is granted, all
else follows. -- George Orwell, 1984

  Top

Aries Donating Member (167 posts) Click to EMail Aries Click to send private message to Aries Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-27-02, 11:30 AM (ET)
Reply to post #38
39. OK, you got me, counsellor!
LAST EDITED ON Dec-27-02 AT 11:32 AM (ET)

Although "logical fallacies" aren't really the issue here, since we're operating in a much more free-wheeling forum than a debate contest. For that matter, courts of law aren't operated like a debate contest, where all kinds of things can be raised to get at the credibility of the evidence, or of the witness.

And as Al Gore knows, sometimes winning a debate on points doesn't count for much.

Your "red herring" reference is rather convenient in that it seems to be a ploy to allow you to evade issues related to your signature line. Are you suggesting I bring that up as a separate thread, i.e. "What's up with boloboffin's sig line"? I think my responses have been well within the DU rules, and for what it's worth, I think my sig line has more relevance to this thread than yours does. So there!

Anyway, I haven't followed the cell phone issue as closely as other aspects of 9/11, but so far I am more convinced by the side that says there's something "fishy" about the story.

Getting to what you are insisting is the POINT OF THIS THREAD, please list the questions you would like answered and I will take a shot at answering them, using the magnificent resources of the internet. Like I said, though, this isn't my particular area of expertise (nor, I suggest,is it yours).

"Do not arouse the wrath of The Great and Powerful Oz! I said come back tomorrow! The Great Oz has spoken! Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"
--The Wizard of Oz

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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-27-02, 12:15 PM (ET)
Reply to post #39
40. The discussion continues (at last!)....
What is the evidence that Ted Olson lied about his wife calling him on 9/11 from Flight 77? So far the only evidence I've seen is: a) He advocated governmental lying in security matters. b) The cell phone/seatback phone discrepancy c) The danger of using cellphones on a plane. d) He used his wife's death as a publicity stunt for the posthumous release of her last book. e)We really wish that it was a lie, because it's such an effective story in proving that Flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon, and in humanizing our political opponents (in the case of the Olsons, I'll allow for enemies as well).

I think it's pretty clear that this assertation is backed by the flimsiest of circumstantial evidence so far. Is there more than this?

That's the question.

PS: I never meant to suggest that you've broken any DU rules. You haven't, and you're always free to post whatever you want. As am I.

Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists. Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two
plus two make four. If that is granted, all
else follows. -- George Orwell, 1984

  Top

Canitbe (100 posts) Click to EMail Canitbe Click to send private message to Canitbe Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-27-02, 01:23 PM (ET)
Reply to post #40
41. Would you settle for phone records?
It might help those of us who doubt Ted Olson's credibility in this matter, if some evidence were made available to substantiate his claims that Barbara Olson called him from FL 77.

You may know of some evidence that would help prove that Mrs. Olson called her husband from FL 77 during the hijacking; if so, then I hope that you will share that with us.

I understand that Mr. Olson (a so-called conservative), in fact, is fond of consuming liberal libations of a ninety proof nerve tonic. Maybe she called him before boarding the plane, and Ted embellished the story one evening while engaged in another of his alleged favorite past-time activities (skirt chasing), and then had to stick with it. You know, what with being Solicitor General and everything, maybe the reason he won't talk about the story anymore is because he's embarassed about the innocent truth.

  Top

boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-27-02, 02:01 PM (ET)
Reply to post #41
42. Phone records would be good...
...but his story checks out on a few basic levels.

1. Barbara Olson died on Flight 77 when it crashed into the Pentagon.

2. Since her husband was a ranking member of the Bush Administration, it's entirely believable that she would try to call him about the situation.

3. Whether she used her own cellphone, someone else's cellphone, or the airline-provided cellphone, it was possible for her to use it to make a call off the plane.

4. There was enough time for her to make the calls.

Motive, Opportunity, and Means. Until you get your hands on phone records that prove the contrary, we're going to have to take Ted Olson's word on this one.

Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists. Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two
plus two make four. If that is granted, all
else follows. -- George Orwell, 1984

  Top

Aries Donating Member (167 posts) Click to EMail Aries Click to send private message to Aries Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-27-02, 02:43 PM (ET)
Reply to post #42
43. And we take his word...why?
To continue the analysis of logical fallacies, isn't this an Appeal to Authority (argumentum ad verecundiam)?

http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/aa.htm

Definition:

While sometimes it may be appropriate to cite an authority to support a point, often it is not. In particular, an appeal to authority is inappropriate if:
the person is not qualified to have an expert opinion on the subject,
experts in the field disagree on this issue.
the authority was making a joke, drunk, or otherwise not being serious

(I suggest that another case where it is inappropriate to cite an "authority" is where there is a history of the endorsement of using lies to gain a desired end, as noted with Mr. Olson elsewhere in this thread, or in the case of a conflict of interest, which one might argue exists in his case.)

A variation of the fallacious appeal to authority is hearsay. An argument from hearsay is an argument which depends on second or third hand sources.

Examples:
Noted psychologist Dr. Frasier Crane recommends that you buy the EZ-Rest Hot Tub.

Economist John Kenneth Galbraith argues that a tight money policy s the best cure for a recession. (Although Galbraith is an expert, not all economists agree on this point.)

We are headed for nuclear war. Last week Ronald Reagan remarked that we begin bombing Russia in five minutes. (Of course, he said it as a joke during a microphone test.)

My friend heard on the news the other day that Canada will declare war on Serbia. (This is a case of hearsay; in fact, the reporter said that Canada would not declare war.)

The Ottawa Citizen reported that sales were up 5.9 percent this year. (This is hearsay; we are not in a position to check the Citizen's sources.)


As you suggest, conclusive evidence that he lied would require access to the records of the seat-back phone referenced below:

From http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/hidden.htm
(also refers to the Vialls story posted elsewhere in this thread)

According to the US Solicitor General Theodore Olson:

“She had trouble getting through, because she wasn’t using her cell phone – she was using the phone in the passengers’ seats,” said Mr Olson. “I guess she didn’t have her purse, because she was calling collect, and she was trying to get through to the Department of Justice, which is never very easy.” … “She wanted to know ‘What can I tell the pilot? What can I do? How can I stop this?’”

What I would like to ask is: How could Barbara Olsen have made a collect call from a credit-card activated only phone system? Ted Olsen has just told us that Barbara did not have a credit card with her.

Also, this site has 2 interesting "reader comments" related to the possibility of her using a cell phone, not a seat-back phone. They are a little long, but since they seem to be relevant, here goes:

A reader comments on this article:

I did some quick research on this issue, and found out:

a) use of cell phones are banned in commercial jets (while in the air) -- this, of course, would not be an issue if hijacked
b) the use of a cell phone from a fast-moving, high-altitude plane does *NOT* seem to be impossible -- just very implausible:

When in the air (a certain distance), your cell-phone actually has much *better* connectivity because you have no line-of-sight obstacles. However, this leads to another problem (and one that annoys the cell-phone providers) -- you actually will have connectivity to multiple "cells" available. This is what is called "bridging", and means that you will connect to several different areas at once. Cell-phone providers do *NOT* like this -- they assume that either you are using your phone from an aircraft, or that your phone has been "cloned" and someone is using it illegally.

The higher you go in the air, however, the less receptivity that you will have, because the "cells" start to look smaller and smaller.

In a high-altitude, non-moving aircraft, you would probably have some difficulty getting a signal. In addition, the claim that in a high-speed aircraft you would be leaving cells too quickly to get a connection is probably true -- this was indicated as a definite problem.

The "air phone" in aircraft is not a cell phone, but actually a radio-phone, so it is not subject to cell-phone problems. In summary, the claim appears to be correct.

Another Reader Comments

cellular antennas are designed to be very directional. if you check out a local tower, the antennas for cellular communications are the small vertical ones, sometimes arranged 3 in a row on each side of the tower. these antennas are typically mounted so that they are angled slightly down towards the ground. so while line of site is improved, reception would be worse. also, the average cell tower provides coverage for maybe a few km away from the tower, say 3-5km. if you're flying at 35,000 ft, that's 10km up in the air. so in addition to the terrible angle, the cell phone user on the airplane would be about 2 times too far away from the antenna on the tower. of course, cell size and transmitter powers vary based on the type of service, and even how the provider sets up the cells in a certain area. so all my numbers are approximate.

one cell phone should never be allowed to connect to more than one base station (the tower and associated equipment for one cell). providers have databases that track if you are using your phone and what base station your phone is communicating with. the base stations communicate with one another via landline data links. assuming everything is working properly, no one should ever be able to make a call with your phone's "ID number" when you are using your phone. now, if you're traveling, the base stations will communicate with each other (and with your phone, depending upon the type of service) and decide which base station you should be talking to. then it switches you over to that base station, but the switch is fast and usually invisible to the user.

if you're cruising at 500 mph, that's 0.2 km/s, which means you'll be moving between cells maybe every 30-60 seconds. it might still work, because handoffs can occur very quickly, if i remember correctly. but getting the initial connection could be a bit tricky...

I have to agree that it is highly improbable that a call was made from either aircraft.

So, based on the available evidence (and in the absence of the phone records from the Flight 77 seat-back phone, impounded I'm sure for reasons of "national security") it appears that the call, if any, was probably made from a seat-back phone, not a cell phone. In EITHER case, however, there should be records to prove it. I don't think it's unpatriotic to ask the U.S. government to produce the records of the calls made by Barbara Olson (if any).

There is no primary evidence, but quite a lot of what you refer to quite accurately as circumstantial evidence. However, that's often enough to try a criminal cases. Should we ignore the circumstantial evidence because the government wants us to?


"Do not arouse the wrath of The Great and Powerful Oz! I said come back tomorrow! The Great Oz has spoken! Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"
--The Wizard of Oz

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Canitbe (100 posts) Click to EMail Canitbe Click to send private message to Canitbe Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-27-02, 06:54 PM (ET)
Reply to post #42
46. THAT'S what makes it so easy to "sell" to the non-thining public.
If you needed a way to get a good "cover" story out about how the planes were hijacked, who the hijackers were, how a small group of young men were "able" to overpower a large group of people, etc., what better way to do that than to use an authority figure like the Solicitor General of the U.S.?

Also helps the airlines (whose legal liability would be much greater if firearms were used...and that is most likely the case.)

In other words, it's a great "cover" story. Which is all the more reason why it's curious that the Government seems to lack confidence in its ability to provide evidence to back up the story.

However; the Government's problem is that it would also have to produce "evidence" to explain the phone calls made on the other flights, and give a plausible explanation for why no one called from the WTC flights.

So, the Government is in a real pickle here. They could no doubt "cook up" some evidence to "prove" Ted's claim, but the clamor wouldn't stop. The Government would have to do a lot of "cooking" to explain the calls (and lack of calls) on the other flights.

That's why we are not likely to get any evidence from the Government. Which makes Teddy's tale that much more critical, which is why it was so critical to have such a "credible" authority figure to reveal a phone call that provided the BIGGEST clues to substantiate the official line.

It has always struck me as odd that Mrs. Olson supposedly asked what she should tell the pilot, as opposed to asking: "What should I do, what can we do, can't someone take and fly the plane remotely, help us Ted or we're going to get killed by these people, or else the plane is gonna crash."

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Canitbe (100 posts) Click to EMail Canitbe Click to send private message to Canitbe Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-27-02, 06:55 PM (ET)
Reply to post #46
47. Should say non-thinKing public. Sorry. n/t
n/t
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DulceDecorum (541 posts) Click to EMail DulceDecorum Click to send private message to DulceDecorum Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-27-02, 08:33 PM (ET)
Reply to post #36
50. airline-provided cellphone
****Barbara Olson's phone calls from the airline-provided cellphone aboard Flight 77.****

Oh nice!!!
Are these available on other American Airlines flights?
Were these "airline-provided cellphones" made available to any of the other passengers on that particular flight?

Ooooh, good one, Boloboffin.
"airline-provided cellphone"

Go adjust your sig line to accomodate the discovery of "airline-provided cellphones" as in:

AIRLINE-PROVIDED-CELLPHONE calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists.

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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 03:04 AM (ET)
Reply to post #50
51. Sorry to burst your bubble, Dulce.
http://www.planwireless.com/cell_phones_on_airplanes.htm

Here's where I got the phrase "airline-provided cellphone." Yes, the other passengers were provided with these cellphones. They are located on the backs of the seats. You know, the seatback phones? They are cellphones.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/cell-phone.htm

Here's a great page that explains about cellphones. All wireless phones are radio phones. They all work the same way. The airline-provided cellphones (seatback phones) establish their signal via satellite so as to avoid the handoff situation that plagues the connection of personal cellphones. But they are cellphones, nonetheless.

And my sig line stands as it is.

Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists.
Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two
plus two make four. If that is granted, all
else follows. -- George Orwell, 1984

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DulceDecorum (541 posts) Click to EMail DulceDecorum Click to send private message to DulceDecorum Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-29-02, 02:32 AM (ET)
Reply to post #51
84. Burst who's bubble?
"Airline-provided cell phone" I said to myself, "I have never heard of an airline-provided cell phone."

Let's see what Google has to say on the subject of the "airline-provided cell phone."
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=%22airline-provided+cell+phone+%22&btnG=Google+Search

I assume, please correct me if I am wrong, that you Boloboffin, are now claiming that Barbara Olson used the seat phone.

OK then, but all the same, your sig line prevaricates.

Just about everyone other than you, distinguishes between a cell phone, or mobile phone, which is carried around by thousands of landlubbers, and the phones which are attached to the seats in airplanes.

According to the Federal Communication Commission, cell phones are classified as mobile land devices. Those in-flight phones installed on airplanes are considered air-ground radiotelephone devices.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/tech/Geek/geek990823.html

When those people were sent to prison, it was NOT for using seat phones. It was for using personal mobile cell phones. The law distinguishes between the two types of phones as does the FAA and the FCC. Why have you chosen to blur the line, Boloboffin?

I would assume, that given the legality of the situation, American Airlines would vehemently deny that they have ever offered or provided "cell phones" to any of their passengers and most especially those on Flight 77.

Now, is it even possible to complete a call on a regular cell phone -- oops, I mean, mobile land device, -- when inside a plane flying at high speed?

And why would Barbara Olson be borrowing someone else's credit card and calling the Justice Department switchboard collect after the hijackers ORDERED her to call?
She seems to have been certain that she could could relay messages to the pilot, despite the hijackers, so why the fumbling around with 10 attempts when every second counts?

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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-29-02, 03:17 AM (ET)
Reply to post #84
89. God, you're dense.
It is not incorrect to refer to the airlines' seatback phones as cell phones. They work exactly the same way.

Many airlines were actually in the process of removing the seatback phones themselves before 9/11. Not many people used them, and the same problem with interfering harmonics and ground handoffs applied to them.

Since Barbara asked what to tell the pilot, I assume that the pilot was in the back with the rest of the passengers. These things are easy to figure out if you would ever, ever look on the other side of the issue. But no. Not Dulce. Dulce's too occupied with the view she has from being hoisted in the air by her cart load.

Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists. Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two
plus two make four. If that is granted, all
else follows. -- George Orwell, 1984

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DulceDecorum (541 posts) Click to EMail DulceDecorum Click to send private message to DulceDecorum Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-29-02, 06:11 PM (ET)
Reply to post #89
98. Point taken
****Dulce's too occupied with the view she has from being hoisted in the air by her cart load.****

I should be so lucky as to enjoy that view.
So far I am stuck here cleaning up after



****It is not incorrect to refer to the airlines' seatback phones as cell phones. THEY WORK EXACTLY THE SAME WAY.
Many airlines were actually in the process of removing the seatback phones themselves before 9/11. Not many people used them, and the same problem with interfering harmonics and ground handoffs applied to them.****


Most of that is so NOT true.

A cell phone is a Part 15 device.
Labeling requirement in 47 CFR 15.19 indicate that a Part 15 device must not cause harmful interference and MUST ACCEPT INTERFERENCE.
http://www.fcc.gov/oet/faqs/eadfaqs.html

In the United states, Transmitting a signal Via
radio, is not a Right, but a Privilege.
....it is therefore not allowed for you to interfere
with other services on that band, you have the
same rights as a Microwave Oven, and or a
Garage door opener.
http://forums.zdnet.com/group/zd.Anchordesk/anchordesk/anchordesktb.tpt/@thread@39358@forward@1@D-,D@ALL/@article@39358?EXP=ALL&VWM=hr&ROS=1&

First, electronics to be installed in an aircraft must meet specific electromagnetic-emission requirements that are much more stringent than FCC Part 15. By meeting these requirements, the chances of interference with sensitive aircraft navigation and communications receivers are greatly reduced.
Part of the approved installation process is a test to verify that the equipment causes no interference. The installed electronics are tested with the cockpit instrumentation active to check for interference. The first time an approved device is installed in a new model of aircraft, a flight test may be required to verify compatibility and that no interference occurs.
In the case of airphones provided on many commercial and business aircraft, not only is the system designed and tested to be compatible with the aircraft, but they use an alternative technology. Airphones employ satellite-based communication systems rather than ground-based systems and operate on an entirely different range of frequencies than cellular networks on the ground.
http://www.aircraftbuyer.com/featured/peds.htm

Back to Barbara Olson:
And it isn't just navigation they're worried about: Lawyers for British Airways have even argued in a London court that a phone's radiation CAN IGNITE AVIATION FUEL.
<snip>

Close to half of the famous five-sided structure was cordoned off and fires were still burning. Officials said THERE WERE TWO DIFFERENT FIRES: one located in the roof of this World War Two era structure. The other involved jet fuel from the airliner that slammed into the building. Some of the specialists brought in to join the hundreds of firefighters on duty are from airport fire units.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/pentagon-ikonos.htm

In an emergency, passengers will (quite rightly) ignore FAA rules and use cell phones anyway. But at present, 911 OPERATORS HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING WHETHER A CALLER IS EVEN ON A PLANE: There have already been hoax calls made by phone thieves on the ground, who can now scramble the Air Force by pretending to report a hijack.
http://www.networkmagazine.com/article/printableArticle?doc_id=NMG20011203S0016

However, if Barbara Olson called on a cellphone, that call made the plane show up on the cellular phone network:
Cellular phone use in the United States is regulated by the FCC. On the ground, a cellular phone has limited range, and must interface with a nearby repeater station that picks up its transmission and relays it along the network. The limited range means that the same frequency can be used in multiple locations, serving multiple markets. When a cellular phone is operated at altitude in an aircraft, even at just a few hundred feet above the ground, it has the capability of transmitting to several stations simultaneously, essentially tying up a frequency and messing up a whole network. The result is chaos to a degree that cannot be tolerated by the cellular service providers or the FCC. In December 1991, the FCC adopted 47 CFR 22.925, which prohibits the use of cell phones after an aircraft has left the ground.
http://www.aircraftbuyer.com/featured/peds.htm
We can track that call and identify the location of the plane whilst the call was being made.

If the call was made from the seat phone, we can search for the credit card charges. Or, we can search for the reversed charges on the Justice Department phone bill.

But it is most unlikely that this research will ever be done or the results released to the general public.

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CaptainMidnight (98 posts) Click to EMail CaptainMidnight Click to send private message to CaptainMidnight Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-27-02, 03:46 PM (ET)
44. aaannnnd? So the conclusion is? I'm confused...
here.

Lotsa postings and off-topic stuff. Is this intentional by Freeper saboteuers?

But, nuts and bolts: what's the conclusion here? can somebody write a post that sums this up? I'm a bit dim about cellphones and planes.

I only got a cellphone a month ago; I don't fly much. But when I flew home to boston this Christmas from LA, I tried using it on the plane, and couldnt' even get a signal taking off, landing, or during the flight.

BUT: those seat-back phones, are they flawless? I think they're actually Satellite phones, to THEY ARE SUPPOSED to work regardless. Is this correct?

So is the FINAL VERDICT that Babs used a seat-back phone, or did she "borrow" a fellow passenger's? I have opinions and factoids about all the other stuff regarding the evil Ted Olson, his agenda, the Bush's, etc. But the straight story on the means by which the call was delivered, if it's to be believed. PLease?

It also would reflect on the veracity of the Flight 93 calls. Highly suspect. Todd Beamer DIDN'T WANNA speak to his wife and instead chatted for 15 minutes with the operator? YEAH!!!

And that Bingham guy called his mom and greeted her with, "This is Mark Bingham." How many greet their mom like that on the phone?

Any why no reported calls from the two WTC planes?

Can anyone condense and clarify all this?

Captain Mike

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DoYouEverWonder (387 posts) Click to EMail DoYouEverWonder Click to send private message to DoYouEverWonder Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 10:11 AM (ET)
Reply to post #44
60. The stewardess on the flight that hit the first tower
LAST EDITED ON Dec-28-02 AT 10:12 AM (ET)

Was able to call out using a special phone the crew has for calling ground maintenance. I read the transcript of the call awhile back and do not recall where I found it. However, she was able to give a blow by blow of the events that were occuring on that flight.

She said that the terrorists were carrying a package that they claimed was a bomb, that they had already cut the pilots throat, that the plane went into a rapid descent and then she could see they were flying very close to the Manhattan skyscrapers. The last thing from the call was her saying something like "Oh my god, these poor people" and then the plane crashed.

I will search around and post a link if I can find it.

It's the sounds of freedom callin'
Ringing up to the skies
It's the sound of the old ways a-fallin'
You can hear it if you try

Phil Ochs

PBWY
DYEW

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DoYouEverWonder (387 posts) Click to EMail DoYouEverWonder Click to send private message to DoYouEverWonder Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 10:38 AM (ET)
Reply to post #44
61. Here's the link,
Calm Before the Crash
Flight 11 Crew Sent Key Details Before Hitting the Twin Towers

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/primetime/DailyNews/primetime_flightattendants_020718.html

On the morning of Sept. 11, American Airlines ground manager Michael Woodward received a phone call that immediately got his full attention.

"Listen, and listen to me very carefully. I'm on Flight 11. The airplane has been hijacked," said the voice on the other end. The caller was Amy Sweeney, a flight attendant on board American Airlines Flight 11, which had just been hijacked on its way from Boston to Los Angeles.

<snip>

Another flight attendant, Betty Ong, who had been with American Airlines for 14 years, also called colleagues on the ground.


Hope this helps. You can see that my own memory of this story has muddled the details a little. Anyway, here it is from the horse's mouth so to speak.

The following are a couple more links to the story that were published a few days after the event.

The last moments of Flight 11
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1556096.stm

Flight 11 Crew Sent Key Details Before Hitting WTC
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200207/19/eng20020719_99980.shtml

This one has a few more details that were later omitted from the ABC version of the story.


It's the sounds of freedom callin'
Ringing up to the skies
It's the sound of the old ways a-fallin'
You can hear it if you try

Phil Ochs

PBWY
DYEW

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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-27-02, 03:54 PM (ET)
45. You take his word because you don't have the evidence to prove he lied.
The appeal to authority fallacy doesn't hold here: Ted Olson is qualified to have an expert opinion on whether or not his wife called him from Flight 77 on 9/11.

Cell phones are radio phones too. They are the same thing as the seatback phones - the seatback phones are evidently geared to transmit to a satellite, not a ground tower, and so the handoff foulup would not apply to the seatback cellphones the way they would to regular cellphones.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/cell-phone.htm

However, cellphones can and have been used on planes before.

http://www.planwireless.com/cell_phones_on_airplanes.htm

Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists. Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two
plus two make four. If that is granted, all
else follows. -- George Orwell, 1984

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Aries Donating Member (167 posts) Click to EMail Aries Click to send private message to Aries Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-27-02, 08:22 PM (ET)
Reply to post #45
49. Not if he is on record as a liar...
LAST EDITED ON Dec-27-02 AT 08:30 PM (ET)

then one would take his word ONLY if one didn't know, or intentionally ignored his history, including the following lies or misrepresentations:

http://www.democrats.com/preview.cfm?term=Ted%20Olson

Olson Lied to the Senate - Here is the Proof
25-May-01
Ted Olson

Ronald Burr was fired as publisher of the American Spectator for demanding an audit of the $2.4 million "Arkansas Project." Burr's friend and advisor, Ralph Lemley, says Olson lied to the Senate when he claimed he only learned of the Arkansas Project in 1997. "Ted Olson knew of the Arkansas Project, if not in name, then in its actions from the start... Ted Olson was an integral part of the project because his agreement in the winter of 1993-1994 to represent David Hale was a cornerstone of the project."

Olson Deceived Federal Judge About Texas Recount Standards
14-May-01
Ted Olson

Ted Olson represented Bush in his efforts to stop the Florida recount. During his closing arguments before Judge Donald Middlebrooks, Olson misrepresented Texas law on a critical point. Texas law allows punch cards to be counted if: "3) an indentation on the chad from the stylus or other object is present and indicates a clearly ascertainable intent of the voter to vote; or 4) the chad reflects by other means a clearly ascertainable intent of the voter to vote." Thus, Texas law is similar to Florida's subjective "intent of the voter" standard. But Olson withheld that crucial information from the Courts. He should be cited for contempt of court - like Clinton - not appointed as Solicitor General!

and the following endorsement of lying as government policy for "national security" reasons (one might reasonably ask, such as those related to 9/11?):

http://www.cjr.org/year/02/3/gup.asp

Such disregard for an informed public has often been cloaked in national security. For example, Jennifer K. Harbury, whose husband, a rebel leader in Guatemala, was tortured to death in that country in 1992 by people with CIA links, pleaded to the Supreme Court for the right to sue senior U.S. officials, a campaign she began under the Clinton administration. She argued that they had lied to her, claiming to know nothing of her husband’s fate, and that their deception may have cost her husband his life. In March, U.S. Solicitor General Theodore B. Olson offered the justices this defense: “There are lots of different situations when the government has legitimate reasons to give out false information.”

Note that in this case a human life was at stake, but Olson still defended the giving out of "false information".

A fairly non-credible "expert witness" on anything, it seems.

"Do not arouse the wrath of The Great and Powerful Oz! I said come back tomorrow! The Great Oz has spoken! Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"
--The Wizard of Oz

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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 03:20 AM (ET)
Reply to post #49
53. Ted Olson's lies
All of the lies you call Ted Olson on, I freely grant. His reprehensible defense of the CIA lies about Jennifer Harbury is on record.

It still doesn't constitute proof that he lied in this case. Yes, it damages his credibility. But he has the corroboration of the people he talked to before Flight 77 crashed. They are witnesses to his calling and reporting that his wife was onboard Flight 77. Her remains were identified among those recovered from the Pentagon rubble. His story remains consistant with all of the facts of that day. Since his story checks out with all other available evidence, the benefit of the doubt goes to him.

Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists. Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two
plus two make four. If that is granted, all
else follows. -- George Orwell, 1984

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HarryLime (10 posts) Click to EMail HarryLime Click to send private message to HarryLime Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 09:59 AM (ET)
Reply to post #53
59. source?
"Her remains were identified among those recovered from the Pentagon rubble."

Do you have a source that you can link to corroborating that?

"His story remains consistant with all of the facts of that day."

His story has more holes than Swiss cheese.

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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 01:51 PM (ET)
Reply to post #59
66. You got me, Harry.
I can't find a mainstream link that says specifically that Barbara Olson's remains were identified. All I can find is this:

http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/pentagram/6_47/local_news/12303-1.html

Last sentence: AFIP identified all but one of the passengers on Flight 77.

There were 64 passengers aboard Flight 77. So I've got a 1 in 64 chance of being wrong about Barbara Olson being identified. I feel pretty good about those odds.

Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists. Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two
plus two make four. If that is granted, all
else follows. -- George Orwell, 1984

  Top

Canitbe (100 posts) Click to EMail Canitbe Click to send private message to Canitbe Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 02:26 PM (ET)
Reply to post #66
68. Better Question?
What evidence is there that proves Mrs. Olson's remains were recovered from a plane crash at the Pentagon?

I doubt the plotters bothered to transport "remains" to the Pentagon just so they could claim that's where they were found.
In other words, the fact that her remains were found doesn't prove anything but that she is deceased.

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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 02:56 PM (ET)
Reply to post #68
72. Please see my post #70, "I believe I just got ungot."
Thanks ever so.

Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists.
Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two
plus two make four. If that is granted, all
else follows. -- George Orwell, 1984

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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 02:50 PM (ET)
Reply to post #66
70. Well, I believe I just got un-got.
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/news/911/911_5810672.shtml

Door County residents who knew her, or just knew of her, said Olson’s death made the Sept. 11 tragedy more personal. She died on the plane that hit the Pentagon.

She had placed several cellular phone calls to her husband in her last minutes to describe the terrorists’ actions.

Jean Casey of Ellison Bay attended Olson’s Door County funeral because she had heard about her death on television and felt a connection.

“It’s nice to know something has been done here, and she was buried here. She will be remembered, and I think, over time, these memorials to her in Door County will become more important,” Casey said.

To be buried there, Barbara Olson's remains would have to have been recovered and identified. Therefore, she is one of the 63 identified passengers of Flight 77 whose remains were recovered from the wreckage of the Pentagon.

Since she got onto the plane, and her remains were recovered from the wreckage, then she was on board as the plane crashed into the Pentagon. The time between hijacking and crash give Barbara ample opportunity to have called Ted Olson, her husband being Solicitor General and their mutual bond gives her ample motive to call Ted Olson, and the seatback cellphones and a credit card, borrowed or not, give her ample means to do so. QED.

Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists. Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two
plus two make four. If that is granted, all
else follows. -- George Orwell, 1984

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Canitbe (100 posts) Click to EMail Canitbe Click to send private message to Canitbe Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 03:56 PM (ET)
Reply to post #70
73. You deserve every penny the Gov't is paying you.
I'll agreee with DD that you crisis communications consultants are very good at what you do. Do you get overtime pay?

Regarding Mrs. Olson's remains: How were they "found" and identified, given that the temperature inside the crash site was supposedly so high that it destroyed DNA?

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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 05:11 PM (ET)
Reply to post #73
75. Do you have any evidence that all DNA was destroyed...
...in the Pentagon fire? Please post, and then I'll consider your question relevant.

http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/pentagram/6_47/local_news/12303-1.html

Your ad hominem fantasies are quite amusing. I'm an actor/sandblaster in Nashville TN. Bobthedrummer knew me at SmirkingChimp.com when I was an actor/bartender, but I quit the bartending job since then. That's enough personal information for the Web.

Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists. Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two
plus two make four. If that is granted, all
else follows. -- George Orwell, 1984

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HarryLime (10 posts) Click to EMail HarryLime Click to send private message to HarryLime Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 09:27 PM (ET)
Reply to post #66
81. thanks
Boloboffin, thanks for showing me that source.

"AFIP's team of forensic pathologists, odontologists, a forensic anthropologist, DNA experts, investigators, and support personnel worked for over two weeks in the mortuary at Dover Air Force Base, Del., and for weeks at the DNA lab in Rockville, Md., to identify the victims of the attack."

So, the experts identified the remains of the bodies that were brought to them in the morgue that they were stationed at. So, we don't know that the bodies from the "plane that hit the Pentagon" were actually recovered from that scene and not, say, from Pennsylvania.


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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-29-02, 02:56 AM (ET)
Reply to post #81
85. There is, as in all forensic cases, a chain of evidence...
...that traces those remains back to where they were found, which is in the wreckage of the Pentagon. The passengers of Flight 77 have been identified.Their mortal remains were discovered at the wreckage.

Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists. Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two
plus two make four. If that is granted, all
else follows. -- George Orwell, 1984

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DulceDecorum (541 posts) Click to EMail DulceDecorum Click to send private message to DulceDecorum Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-29-02, 01:53 AM (ET)
Reply to post #66
83. And I still want to know
HOW exactly they identified the hijackers.
From everything I have so far gathered, they used DNA to complete the matches. How did they just happen to have hijacker DNA lying around?

DNA identification is like playing the card game SNAP.

If you have a card, but cannot find it's mate, there is no identification, there is no SNAP.
Cops have thousands of crime fingerprints on file and they even know that many of them belong to murderers, but until they can SNAP with the person, those records sit there collecting dust and nobody knows whodunit.

If they had said that they had managed ID everyone EXCEPT for 4 passengers, that would be OK with me. I would have assumed that those were the hijacker corpses and that Mommy and Daddy were a little embarassed to come forward and present items with their son's DNA. Incidentally, what DID they do with those hijacker corpses, hmmm?

But to actually be able to COMPLETE a DNA match!!??!! From the military DNA card file!! That strongly implies that you knew exactly WHO he was before he went and do-ed it.
http://www.madcowprod.com/index6.html
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/sept_11/hr2897_ih.htm

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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-29-02, 02:57 AM (ET)
Reply to post #83
86. I've already answered this question.
Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists. Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two
plus two make four. If that is granted, all
else follows. -- George Orwell, 1984

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Aries Donating Member (167 posts) Click to EMail Aries Click to send private message to Aries Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 12:08 PM (ET)
Reply to post #53
62. Back to logical fallacies again
> But he has the corroboration of the people he talked to before Flight 77 crashed.

Did they hear the conversation with Barbara, or are they recounting his description of it? If they are recounting what he said, that would go under the "hearsay" exclusion under the "appeal to authority" fallacy. It would also be hearsay in court. Did anyone else hear her end of the conversation (I should probably put that in quotes--"conversation")?.

>Since his story checks out with all other available evidence, the benefit of the doubt goes to him.

Sez who? For you, maybe, and for others who are susceptible to the flawed logic used in explaining why we should believe him. Is the evidence good enough to go to war? I still want to see the phone records.

This is the type of non-reasoning that has been applied to the rest of the questions about 9/11. Because the authorities say so, we are supposed to assume that there are no gaps in the logical chain that has led us to bombing Afghanistan, planning for war with Iraq, passing the "Patriot" Act, abandoning the constitution, vaccinating everyone with smallpox vaccine, etc. It's belief that the supposed authorities are telling the truth that allows these travesties to occur.


"Do not arouse the wrath of The Great and Powerful Oz! I said come back tomorrow! The Great Oz has spoken! Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"
--The Wizard of Oz

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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 01:11 PM (ET)
Reply to post #62
64. No logical fallacies...
Aries, really. You've got to stop being so eager to disprove what I'm saying and actually consider it.

No one else heard Barbara's call. The only thing that the people in the command center can testify to is that Ted Olson called them with the news that Flight 77 was hijacked and that his wife was on it, and that this call happened before Flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon. That's all I claimed for them to testify to. No hearsay, no appeal to authority fallacy.

The rest of your reply rests on the false premise of my flawed logic, and sweeps in argument ad populum. Is that the best you can do in proving your proposition? You assert that Ted Olson lied that day: what specific proof do you have that he did so?

Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists. Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two
plus two make four. If that is granted, all
else follows. -- George Orwell, 1984

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Aries Donating Member (167 posts) Click to EMail Aries Click to send private message to Aries Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-29-02, 09:59 AM (ET)
Reply to post #64
91. "I want to believe"
I guess we've reached the end of the trail with this discussion, but I wanted to leave you with this little X-File quote that reminds me of your position (substituting "the government" or "responsible authorities" for "the voice", and I'm not sure WHAT exactly--maybe "the official story is true"--for "no harm will come to her, and someday she'll return")....

http://www.generationterrorists.com/~jason/cgi-bin/x-files.cgi?ep=1x03

DR. HEITZ WERBER: Are you scared?

MULDER: I know I should be but I'm not.

DR. HEITZ WERBER: Do you know why?

MULDER: Because of the voice.

DR. HEITZ WERBER: The voice?

MULDER: The voice in my head.

DR. HEITZ WERBER: What's it telling you?

MULDER: Not to be afraid. It's telling me no harm will come to her, and that one day she'll return.

DR. HEITZ WERBER: Do you believe the voice?

MULDER: I want to believe.

"Do not arouse the wrath of The Great and Powerful Oz! I said come back tomorrow! The Great Oz has spoken! Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"
--The Wizard of Oz

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Canitbe (100 posts) Click to EMail Canitbe Click to send private message to Canitbe Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 01:31 PM (ET)
Reply to post #62
65. boloboffin is anablep
Yes, I know s/he will deny it. The similarities in sentence structure, the use of certain phraseology, and other things lead me to believe they are one and the same.

No big deal, just curious. I know that H&K (or "H&K") is a big firm ("company"), but if you read boloboffin messages and compare them to anablep messages, you'll see exactly why I say this.

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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 02:04 PM (ET)
Reply to post #65
67. ROTFLMAO!
Tell you what, Canitbe, why don't you alert the moderators to this startling "fact", okay? Let them do a IP search of my posts and anablep's posts. If we turn out to be the same person, then let them ban us.

I suspect though, that the moderators HAVE been alerted to my presence by my debate opponents. The fact that I'm still here should speak for itself.

I guarantee that I am not anablep. What use of certain phraseology do we share in common? "Flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon." That about sums it up.

Do you even realize what straws you are grasping at to believe such a thing? Come into the light, Canitbe. There's a lot of work that needs to be done to get rid of the Usurper in the White House. Won't it be nice to strike some blows that actually mean something?

Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists. Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two
plus two make four. If that is granted, all
else follows. -- George Orwell, 1984

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DoYouEverWonder (387 posts) Click to EMail DoYouEverWonder Click to send private message to DoYouEverWonder Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 12:28 PM (ET)
63. Phone Records would help resolve a lot of these questions.
No matter whether Olson called on her own cell phone, someone else's cell phone, or the airplane phone, using any of these devices would have created a paper/billing trail.

If we ever have a real investigation into the 1000's of questions regarding the events of 9-11, phone records will be an invaluable source of colaborating information.


It's the sounds of freedom callin'
Ringing up to the skies
It's the sound of the old ways a-fallin'
You can hear it if you try

Phil Ochs

PBWY
DYEW

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Canitbe (100 posts) Click to EMail Canitbe Click to send private message to Canitbe Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 02:35 PM (ET)
Reply to post #63
69. Records would help disperse the fog. Ergo, don't expect them.
You could be excused for wondering why the damage control advocates who post here aren't making relentless demands on the Government to help them out by releasing any evidence they have as proof of Barbara's phone calls, and all the rest.

It's almost cruel that these folks are working tirelessly on behalf of the official story, and the Government doesn't have the decency to end their misery by simply releasing some proof so that these folks can "move on" with their lives.

This cynicism on the part of the Government is unwise. It risks causing one or more people to jump ship and abandon a defense of the official version of what happened.

Shows you how much confidence the Government has in its ability to keep everyone on the ranch.

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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 02:55 PM (ET)
Reply to post #69
71. I have made many requests to people with the records.
All have gone ignored, as I expected.

The Bush Administration benefits from the fog. Their political enemies divide their own resources to put out the fires of rumormongering and darkweaving that leave the entire call for a 9/11 independant investigation. Why give me any help? Why bend themselves to satisfy your questions, when your questions are so inane?

You give aid and comfort to the Bush Adminstration with your pursuit of these fantasies. You are much more likely to be on H&K's payroll than I. Come back into the light, Canitbe...

Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists. Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two
plus two make four. If that is granted, all
else follows. -- George Orwell, 1984

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Canitbe (100 posts) Click to EMail Canitbe Click to send private message to Canitbe Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 04:00 PM (ET)
Reply to post #71
74. How did you make your requests and to whom did you make them?
You said that you "have made many requests to people with the records." To whom did you make your many requests, and what procedure or process did you use to communicate those many requests?

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DoYouEverWonder (387 posts) Click to EMail DoYouEverWonder Click to send private message to DoYouEverWonder Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 06:42 PM (ET)
Reply to post #76
77. In other words,
You're full of it and yourself?

It's the sounds of freedom callin'
Ringing up to the skies
It's the sound of the old ways a-fallin'
You can hear it if you try

Phil Ochs

PBWY
DYEW

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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 07:06 PM (ET)
Reply to post #77
78. Another red herring.
The subject is not and has nothing to do with the people I have contacted about 9/11 information and the times and manner of doing so.

The subject is Barbara Olson's phone call to Ted Olson from Flight 77 the day it crashed into the Pentagon.

My frustration is as much with me for falling for the red herring, as it is with Canitbe for posing it in the first place.

Do you have anything worthwhile to contribute to this discussion besides ad hominem attacks on me?

Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists. Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two
plus two make four. If that is granted, all
else follows. -- George Orwell, 1984

  Top

DoYouEverWonder (387 posts) Click to EMail DoYouEverWonder Click to send private message to DoYouEverWonder Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 07:48 PM (ET)
Reply to post #78
79. So you can talk about whatever you wish
But no one is allowed to call you on your bs.

Then maybe you might want to avoid comments like "I have made many requests to people with the records. All have gone ignored, as I expected." if you don't wish to back such statements up with proof. Until then you are just another full of crap blow hard waste of time.

BTW, you don't happen to shop at Brooks Brothers? I hear they make nice suits.

It's the sounds of freedom callin'
Ringing up to the skies
It's the sound of the old ways a-fallin'
You can hear it if you try

Phil Ochs

PBWY
DYEW

  Top

boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-29-02, 03:10 AM (ET)
Reply to post #79
88. Why don't we just talk about the subject at hand?
You dig? You comprehend? The people I've contacted have NOTHING to do with whether Barbara Olson called Ted or not that day.

You can continue to gang up on me with Dulce, HarryLime and Canitbe, but you've got to realize that your actions reveal your hypocrisy.

Talk to me about the issues if you're not afraid of them.

Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists. Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two
plus two make four. If that is granted, all
else follows. -- George Orwell, 1984

  Top

Canitbe (100 posts) Click to EMail Canitbe Click to send private message to Canitbe Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-28-02, 08:21 PM (ET)
Reply to post #76
80. boloboffin: You Can No Longer Be Taken Seriously.
You can call it an old lawyer's trick, or whatever might help salve your embarassment; but your credibility has been tested, and you failed.

It is not my fault, or that of anyone else's here, that you set yourself up for this. I merely provided you with the opportunity to show DUers the truth about your character.

If you have any sense of decency left, you will apologize to us, and then quietly slip away.

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boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-29-02, 03:07 AM (ET)
Reply to post #80
87. Did you ever take me seriously in the first place?
Then the news of my suffering a loss of credibility in your eyes or anyone else who believes the foolishness of "no Flight 77" is no great hardship on me.

DUers who even venture into this forum can read for themselves who is honestly providing answers and who isn't. It's quite plain who skips over the answers and arguments of their opponents and who deals with what the other person says.

I know who I've contacted about this information, and you don't. Tough titty. I purposely blew off your last request because I knew you'd seize on it and wax so hypocritically righteous, instead of dealing with what I've already said on this and other subjects. People reading this forum with an objective mind know who is being up front and honest, and who is grasping at straws.

The facts remain: Flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon. Barbara Olson called her husband from the plane to report the hijacking. Ted Olson then called the Justice Department command center. Barbara Olson then called Ted back one last time. She and the other 63 people aboard Flight 77 then perished as the plane plunged into the Pentagon.

None so blind as those who will not see.

Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists. Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two
plus two make four. If that is granted, all
else follows. -- George Orwell, 1984

  Top

pretzel4gore Donating Member (593 posts) Click to EMail pretzel4gore Click to send private message to pretzel4gore Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-29-02, 09:04 AM (ET)
Reply to post #87
90. the only fact that matters
and that still impacts the world is the way cnn jumped at the news olsen gave them...this allowed the bush propaganda machinery to be engaged, id the terrs as arab, osama etc...and bush's war on afghanistan/terra. bush is a liar thief ...olsen is a pig and barb olsen is dead. them's facts.
  Top

boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-29-02, 11:13 AM (ET)
Reply to post #92
94. Your confusion is due to my poor wording.
I have never contacted anyone about phone records of Barbara Olson's call. I can see why you thought I claimed I did, and I apologize for being that unclear.

I have emailed Chip Diehl several times about his knowledge of the Pentagon crash, through several channels. I've also emailed the Pentagon and asked them to release any more video they might have of Flight 77 crashing into the Pentagon. Earlier, I contacted reporters and a policemen who were on record about the crimimal history of a certain Delmart Vreeland. These are "the records" I was talking about. If I had been more precise, you would have understood what I was saying. The fault is mine completely.

However, your personal vendetta against me is now quite openly seen, Canitbe. You can't face up to the facts, you can only smear me. The only thing I'm guilty of is being sloppy with the English language.

Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists. Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two
plus two make four. If that is granted, all
else follows. -- George Orwell, 1984

  Top

boloboffin (268 posts) Click to EMail boloboffin Click to send private message to boloboffin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-29-02, 11:02 AM (ET)
Reply to post #90
93. I don't see anything in your post that I disagree with, pretzel4gore.
The story is as powerful as an urban legend, and it humanizes two very bitter enemies of the Clintons. I understand the mental resistance to accepting this story, but there is no factual basis for denying that this happened (the Barbara Olson calls). By chance, Ted Olson was given a grand platform of sympathy to send his wife's last screed howling out to the public. Them's the facts, and them's the breaks.

Common sense will tell us, that the
power which hath endeavored to subdue
us, is of all others, the most improper to
defend us. -- Thomas Paine

On September 11th, 2001, Flight 77
turned off its transponder. Its radar image
was still clearly picked up, however, and
air traffic controllers watched this airplane
fly over Washington, DC and begin to circle
the Pentagon. Cellphone calls from Flight
77 confirm that the plane had been
hijacked by terrorists. Eyewitnesses saw a
757 circling the Pentagon in the exact
place where air traffic controllers
observed Flight 77 on their screens. Flight
77 descended, flew across a interstate
filled with rush hour traffic, and then
crashed into the Pentagon. The fire raged
and part of the Pentagon collasped. After
the fire was contained, pieces of Flight 77
were pulled from the lawn and the
wrecked building, along with the mortal
remains of Flight 77's passengers.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two
plus two make four. If that is granted, all
else follows. -- George Orwell, 1984

  Top

undergroundrailroad Donating Member (3457 posts) Click to EMail undergroundrailroad Click to send private message to undergroundrailroad Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Dec-29-02, 06:23 PM (ET)
Reply to post #93
99. This is getting hard to load.
I'm locking this thread.

UGRR
DU Moderator

  Top


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