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ewing2001 (3164 posts) Click to EMail ewing2001 Click to send private message to ewing2001 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Sep-17-02, 12:00 PM (ET)
Building 7 CollapseThread
LAST EDITED ON Sep-17-02 AT 12:45 PM (ET)

Ok, it's time again for the Building 7.

However everyone who thinks, he can disturb this thread with aggressive vibes, should be prepared to come to an ignore or ban list.

This is an investigative topic only.
I would advise every guest and supporter to inform the DU-administrators about every troll, who joins this thread.
Thx

To begin with:

Evidence of cutter charges in Building 7?

Email from a reader
(*thx to WRH)

"...I was looking at the video of the WTC7 "collapse" and found some interesting things in the pictures. Picture 1 is just when the collapse started...Pictures 2-4 show (highlighted) puffs of smoke coming out of the upper floors. The puffs appear to come out of the columns. My guess is the columns were kind enough to destroy themselves to prevent the building from falling outward towards the building across the street!!!! How nifty!!..."




http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc7.rm
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc7big.rm
(the collapse is also included in the CBS documentary by the french filmmakers)

"...Take a close look at the manner in which it collapses straight down. For this building to collapse in this fashion, ALL of the load bearing supports would have had to fail (or be cut) at EXACTLY THE SAME TIME. Think this happens by chance? The claim that the collapse was the result of a fire requires the fire be equally distributed throughout the entire floor of the building, providing equal heat for an equal amount of time, so that all the load bearings members would fail at the exact same moment. (Shown under "fair use" for non-profit educational purposes.)..."

Other sources:
WTC Building 7 Mystery
http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=ground_zero2001&msg=836.1


Approximately 7 hours after fires initiated in WTC 7, the building collapsed. The start of a timed collapse sequence was based on 17:20:33, the time registered by seismic recordings.."

About the penthouse:
From an inofficial study
(there was never a testimony!)
http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-report/WTC_ch5.pdf


~5:21:03 p.m. Approximately 30 seconds later, Figure 5-21 shows the east mechanical penthouse
disappearing into the building. It takes a few seconds for the east penthouse to “disappear” completely.

~5:21:08 p.m. Approximately 5 seconds later, the west mechanical penthouse disappears (Figure 5-22)
or sinks into WTC 7.

~5:21:09 p.m. Approximately 1 or 2 seconds after the west penthouse sinks into WTC 7, the whole
building starts to collapse. A north-south “kink” or fault line develops along the eastern side as the building
begins to come down at what appears to be the location of the collapse initiation.

~5:21:10 p.m. WTC 7 collapses completely after burning for approximately 7 hours.
The collapse appeared to initiate at the lower floors, allowing the upper portion of the structure to fall.

From the study:
(This report also implied, that the damage was not the reason for the collapse of B7)

"...It does not appear that the collapse of WTC 1 affected the roof, or the east, west, and north elevations
of WTC 7 in any significant way..."

or this part:

"...damage to the southwest corner of WTC 7 at approximately
floors 8 to 20, 24, 25, and 39 to 46.."

This doesn't matter, because there was no gas tank between 8 to 20, 24 and 25 and 39 to 46th floor (where the SSB was and they probably even didn't discharge diesel oil, as we learned- please read the report. It also includes a list of the tenants)

At that time please "note the two mechanical penthouses of WTC 7
are intact..."


For newbies and supporters of this topic:

We are supported by CON EDISON, who just filed a lawsuit against Building 7. However they believe, that the diesel tanks had been reason for the destruction.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/11/nyregion//11BLAS.html

Con Ed and Insurers Sue Port Authority Over 7 World
Trade
By JAMES GLANZ

"...Consolidated Edison and five of its insurers have
filed a $314.5 million lawsuit against the Port
Authority of New York and New Jersey, asserting that
huge diesel tanks in 7 World Trade Center, an office
building that collapsed late in the day last Sept. 11,
were improperly designed and maintained. The suit
charges that fires fed by the fuel in those tanks
played a major role in the collapse.

A major Con Edison electrical substation that sat
beneath 7 World Trade Center — a 47-story high-rise
just north of the twin towers — was destroyed when the
building collapsed.

"The insurers are trying to recover what they paid to
us and we're trying to recover some of our uninsured
losses," said Chris Olert, a Con Edison spokesman.
"There was negligent design, inspection, maintenance
and operation of the diesel fuel tanks there. The
diesel tanks caused the building to collapse."

Building 7 was controlled by the military since end of 2000.

http://homes.wsj.com/columnists_com/bricks/20020710-bricks.html
"...But it's not clear whether Mr. Silverstein can use
those proceeds to start building without first
reaching an agreement with the mortgage holder on 7
World Trade Center, Blackstone Real Estate
Advisors...."


http://www.blackstone.com/news/press_releases%255C7_world_trade_oct_2000.pdf
"New York, NY October 17, 2000: Blackstone Real Estate Advisors, the global real estate investment and management arm of The Blackstone Group, L.P., announced today that it has purchased, from Teachers Insurance and Annuity Association, the participating mortgage secured by 7 World Trade Center, a commercial office complex controlled by real estate developer Larry Silverstein"

(CEO is currenltly sitting on a commission headed by Peterson at The Conference Board)
http://burningbush.netfirms.com/TIAA-CREF.html


info on tenants (which include CIA/DOD, 24th floor):
http://burningbush.netfirms.com/7WTC.html
(*thx to JohnHorne)

Blackstone is owned by the TRW Group, who just mergered with Raytheon. They have ties with the Carlyle Group and Henry Kissinger.

Kissinger-Blackstone Connection

Blackstone is official partner von Kissinger Associates,
Pete Peterson is "Foreign Affairs Bureau of New York".


American International Group, Inc.
1. Henry Kissinger chairs both AIG's International
Advisory Board and the advisory boards of several
AIG-sponsored Infrastructure Funds
2. AIG has an ownership interest in Blackstone and is
an investor in several of Blackstone's private equity
funds
3. AIG and Blackstone have a joint venture,
specializing in restructuring and M&A advisory
services in selected Asian countries
4. The AIG-Blackstone-Kissinger Associates venture
recently completed its first advisory assignment on
behalf of a New York Stock Exchange listed U.S.
company


NOTE:
Mystery remains about the reasons of the DoD in Building 7.
In 2001 they tested a new microwave weapon system in Nevada,
called thermobarics, later used in ToraBora.

NOTE2:
The OEM had it's "bunker" on the 23rd floor, which was constructed with the help of Jerome Hauer.

He was responsible for organising a security job for former FBI-Top Anti-Terror specialiist John O'Neill.

O'Neill died in the Twin Towers on Sep11th.

Hauer is also a friend of current anthrax suspect Stephen Hatfill. Both worked together in 1999 at the SAIC and held a speech together in 1998 at the CFR about BioTerrorism.
http://www.cfr.org/public/resource.cgi?meet!102
May 21, 1998 , New York, NY

" Building a 'Biobomb': Terrorist Challenge and U.S. Response "

http://www.saic.com/news/nov99/news11-30a-99.html


Hauer was also managing director of the crisis and consequence group at Kroll Worldwide, a security consulting company based in New York.
Kroll is the official security + bodyguard company for all american presidents since 1945.

Hauer was also involved in a shady business deal about West Nile Vaccines in 1998.
Oravax developed the vaccines.
Mainly responsible for this decision:
Hauer and (CDC) advisor Col. Thomas Monath (Ex-USAMRIID)/Oravax,
who is another friend of Hatfill.

Hauer started already to work as a National Security advisor to Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson on Sep10th.
He's now leading the office.
http://www.bayarea.com/mld/bayarea/living/health/3020501.hym
http://www.lauriegarrett.com/wtc_day12.html


Hauer was also a member of the John Hopkins Working Group on Civilian Bio Defense and later involved in the June 2001 BioTerror Exercise "DARK WINTER", produced by the CFR, CSIS, the Oklahoma Prevention Center for Terrorism and ANSER/Institute for Homeland Security (established in 1999)
http://iml.dartmouth.edu/ists/hauer.html

Hauer never explained the reasons for a Commando Center in B7.

After Building 7 collapsed, a few weeks later the CIA confirmed, that they had an office in B7.

Hauer once tried to blame the anthrax attack on Iraq:
http://www.lauriegarrett.com/wtc_day12.html

"...With intelligence pouring in that indicated the terrorist network is allied with Sadaam Hussein's bioweapons laboratory personnel, as well as missing Russian BW scientists, Hauer said they are scrambling in Washington to get ready.."


On September 14th, FBI agent Barry Mawn, who resigned under unknown reasons in March 2002, classified a passpord in front of Building 7 on Vesey Street.

Sunday, September 16, 2001

"...FBI Assistant Director Barry Mawn did not disclose the name on the passport or other details, but the discovery prompted an intensive search for evidence blocks from the towers that were brought down in Tuesday's terrorist attacks by two hijacked planes..."

Passpord in the rubble of B7:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/WTC_suspects.html

The name of the passpord was officially Satam Al Suqami.


Barry Mawn was also the first FBI agent, who knew about John O'Neills stolen brief case:

http://www.newyorker.com/FACT/?020114fa_FACT1

"...His briefcase, which contained classified material, was missing. O'Neill immediately called the local police, and they found the briefcase a couple of hours later, in another hotel. A Montblanc pen had been stolen, along with a silver cigar cutter and a lighter. The papers were intact; fingerprint analysis soon established that they had not been touched....

...He phoned me and said, 'I gotta tell you something,' " Barry Mawn recalled. O'Neill told Mawn that the briefcase contained some classified E-mails and one highly sensitive document, the Annual Field Office Report, which is an overview of every counter-terrorist and counter-espionage case in New York..."


GROUND ZERO Forum NYC
http://www.ourDNA.org
http://www.lebensaspekte.de
http://forums.delphiforums.com/ground_zero2001

Supporter of the 911-Skepticism Movement NYC, Washington, San Francisco, Ohio, Portland etc...

Support public LIHOP-evidence now, SETUP later!

Please donate for GZ Forum NYC. Every $10 counts.
(telephone bills, phone research, PR costs, media tools,video distribution,
hardware upgrade, security solutions, provider costs, various investigations etc...)
Info at http://www.lebensaspekte.de/groundzero/donation.html

The last NYC- 911-skepticism forum was
during the anniversary week of Sep11th in NYC at various events.
Our files had been handled over to Martin Luther King III, Patti Smith, Spooky (Eric B. Miller), Nina Hagen and other VIPs who wished to remain anonymous.

The first NYC-911Skeptic Event was in December 2001 in NYC at Joe's Gallery.

The first biggest NYC-911Skeptic Event was on May 3rd to 5th in NYC, 135 west 42nd St. (bet. 6th & 7th Ave) at Chashama Theater, Times Square.

It included also a panel on May 4th, streamed live over the net with panelists from DU, guerrillanews, GZ, Alex Jones.com and a live phone session with Oswald Le Winter (Portugal, Ex-USA).

The last SF-911-skepticism forum was during the anniversary week of Sep11th.

They started succesfully with a rally in front of the office of Diane Feinstein in January 2002.


The last Washington-911 skepticism forum was on June 10th in National Press Center including Julie Sweeney (NYC), J. Michael Springmann (ex- Jeddah "CIA"-Consulate, where 10-15 visas for the 911 hijackers had been filed, Lorna Brett FAA/Airline Accountability, Mary Schiavo, Esq. FAA/Airline Accountability, Michael Ruppert (copvcia), Tom Flocco (911- insider trading story) and John Judge, Air Defenses/NORAD/Pentagon-Specialist etc..., organised by http://www.unansweredquestions.org


The 911-skeptic contents:
a) geopolitical background (Carlyle, Harken, UNOCAL,
CentGas, DynCorp, ENRON Broadband/TSI/Taliban,
Halliburton, BAe, Northrup etc..)
b) investigative + scientific oddities, prior knowledge/early warnings, details for a set-up incl. LIHOP etc..
c) current political situation, historical comparisons
Proj. Northwoods, Bushistory, Ashcrofts
database/reading lists, threads of week, lies of war, yuppie fascism,
civil liberties/arrestments etc..
d) political and media analysis plus current support
for 911-investigation (US congress: McKinney, Stark,
plus opinions Ron Paul etc.., AtlantaPoll,
911-petition with 12000 sigs, diff. books from Moore
to Greg Palast), 911-website projects, independent
media portals etc..
e) Insider-oddities +details, insider-infos, last
minute topics, "breaking news"...

NOTE: Any use of non-standard English words that are in quotes within this post should not be construed by any member of DU as prejudice against Southern people, African Americans, Asian people, Northern people, Arabic people, Jewish people, Christian people or any other group save one. These words are blatant prejudice against STUPID people.

  Alert Edit | Reply | Top

  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 Kissinger-Blackstone-AIG johnhorne Sep-17-02 1
   very helpful, John! ewing2001 09/17/2002 2
 Hi Ewing- Old and In the Way Sep-17-02 3
   report ewing2001 09/17/2002 4
 Cutter Charges LARED Sep-17-02 5
   Another view of WTC-7 collapse Merdesquared 09/17/2002 6
       addy ewing2001 09/17/2002 8
           Oops... Merdesquared 09/17/2002 11
   collection ewing2001 09/17/2002 7
       all tenants ewing2001 09/17/2002 9
       Trollfest???? LARED 09/17/2002 10
           Oh boy, Trolls!Will I get to wear my Leiderhosen Ren? Merdesquared 09/17/2002 13
       The mayor's bunker Merdesquared 09/17/2002 12
   LARED, if I may be so bold. Old and In the Way 09/17/2002 14
       Re: One Question LARED 09/20/2002 17
           One established fact no one even is touching right here Mr_SmokesTooMuch 09/22/2002 25
               AF stand-down plaguepuppy 09/28/2002 44
   Smoke vs. squibs Merdesquared 09/18/2002 15
       military vs oil(-tank) ewing2001 09/19/2002 16
 Some uncommon Building 7 photos anablep Sep-21-02 18
   omg...lol ewing2001 09/21/2002 19
       Search for chemists! ewing2001 09/21/2002 20
       It's no joke anablep 09/21/2002 21
           You can take a diesel fuel tank out of the equation then Mr_SmokesTooMuch 09/22/2002 22
               Question about diesel anablep 09/22/2002 23
                   That's a good question, and not being an expert Mr_SmokesTooMuch 09/22/2002 24
                   Diesel fuel LARED 09/22/2002 26
                       "Easily ignite with a small spark"? Mr_SmokesTooMuch 09/22/2002 27
                           diesel stuff LARED 09/22/2002 28
                               Pushing it a bit 2muchbs 09/23/2002 32
                                   Are you talking about WTC7 or the pentagon? LARED 09/24/2002 33
                   My opinion (Pentagon/Diesel fuel) 2muchbs 09/23/2002 31
               A little story 2muchbs 09/23/2002 30
                   I'll tell you why the tank did not explode. LARED 09/24/2002 34
                       Umm, not really... plaguepuppy 09/28/2002 45
                           Do you even bother reading what was said LARED 09/28/2002 46
                               Earth to annoying twit plaguepuppy 09/28/2002 47
                                   Let me spell it out for you. LARED 09/28/2002 50
                                       And the bile just keeps on flowing plaguepuppy 09/29/2002 52
                                           Ok my turn to nitpick LARED 09/29/2002 55
                                               Autoignition - does it matter plaguepuppy 10/01/2002 56
   You are definitively right ! Endimion 09/23/2002 29
       Let me be more accurate LARED 09/24/2002 35
           WTC Photos -- Links spooked 09/24/2002 36
               Welcome DulceDecorum 09/28/2002 49
           It would be really nice, but Endimion 09/24/2002 37
               But, LARED 09/24/2002 38
                   Well, well, well... Endimion 09/25/2002 39
                       Not much time, but LARED 09/25/2002 40
                           ž Endimion 09/26/2002 41
                               Thanks for the correction LARED 09/26/2002 42
                       Collapse uniformity plaguepuppy 09/28/2002 43
           "Let me be more accurate" - well, less would be dificult plaguepuppy 09/28/2002 48
               Somehow I missed all that LARED 09/29/2002 51
                   Squibs plaguepuppy 09/29/2002 53
                       Clear as day, right. LARED 09/29/2002 54
                           Takes one to know one plaguepuppy 10/02/2002 57
                           Taking up a collection... plaguepuppy 10/02/2002 58
                               B7 lawsuit now okayed! ewing2001 10/03/2002 59
 One Meridien Plaza elephant_eater Oct-08-02 60
   did you read it? vincent_vega 10/08/2002 61
       Vastly different? elephant_eater 10/08/2002 62
           Painful Questions ewing2001 10/10/2002 63
           You're not going to make me dig this all up again. vincent_vega 10/10/2002 64
               The facade was a facade 2muchbs 10/10/2002 65

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Messages in this topic

johnhorne (841 posts) Click to EMail johnhorne Click to send private message to johnhorne Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Sep-17-02, 12:23 PM (ET)
1. Kissinger-Blackstone-AIG
(won't get into collapse debate, but here's info on the companies mentioned by ewing)

AIG board: http://elitewatch.netfirms.com/AIG.html

Blackstone & internal advisors: http://elitewatch.netfirms.com/Blackstone_Group.html

Kissinger Associates:
http://elitewatch.netfirms.com/Kissinger_Associates.html

Salomon Smith Barney (subsiduary of Citigroup, held "administrative operations" in WTC7 - & connection to Worldcom via Jack Grubman
http://elitewatch.netfirms.com/Salomon_Smith_Barney.html

“Political satire became obsolete when Henry Kissinger was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.” - Tom Lehrer

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ewing2001 (3164 posts) Click to EMail ewing2001 Click to send private message to ewing2001 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Sep-17-02, 12:43 PM (ET)
Reply to post #1
2. very helpful, John!
This should be, if possible a crossover investigation anyway.
Evert help to solve the case is to be appreciated.

GROUND ZERO Forum NYC
http://www.ourDNA.org
http://www.lebensaspekte.de
http://forums.delphiforums.com/ground_zero2001

Supporter of the 911-Skepticism Movement NYC, Washington, San Francisco, Ohio, Portland etc...

Support public LIHOP-evidence now, SETUP later!

Please donate for GZ Forum NYC. Every $10 counts.
(telephone bills, phone research, PR costs, media tools,video distribution,
hardware upgrade, security solutions, provider costs, various investigations etc...)
Info at http://www.lebensaspekte.de/groundzero/donation.html

The last NYC- 911-skepticism forum was
during the anniversary week of Sep11th in NYC at various events.
Our files had been handled over to Martin Luther King III, Patti Smith, Spooky (Eric B. Miller), Nina Hagen and other VIPs who wished to remain anonymous.

The first NYC-911Skeptic Event was in December 2001 in NYC at Joe's Gallery.

The first biggest NYC-911Skeptic Event was on May 3rd to 5th in NYC, 135 west 42nd St. (bet. 6th & 7th Ave) at Chashama Theater, Times Square.

It included also a panel on May 4th, streamed live over the net with panelists from DU, guerrillanews, GZ, Alex Jones.com and a live phone session with Oswald Le Winter (Portugal, Ex-USA).

The last SF-911-skepticism forum was during the anniversary week of Sep11th.

They started succesfully with a rally in front of the office of Diane Feinstein in January 2002.


The last Washington-911 skepticism forum was on June 10th in National Press Center including Julie Sweeney (NYC), J. Michael Springmann (ex- Jeddah "CIA"-Consulate, where 10-15 visas for the 911 hijackers had been filed, Lorna Brett FAA/Airline Accountability, Mary Schiavo, Esq. FAA/Airline Accountability, Michael Ruppert (copvcia), Tom Flocco (911- insider trading story) and John Judge, Air Defenses/NORAD/Pentagon-Specialist etc..., organised by http://www.unansweredquestions.org


The 911-skeptic contents:
a) geopolitical background (Carlyle, Harken, UNOCAL,
CentGas, DynCorp, ENRON Broadband/TSI/Taliban,
Halliburton, BAe, Northrup etc..)
b) investigative + scientific oddities, prior knowledge/early warnings, details for a set-up incl. LIHOP etc..
c) current political situation, historical comparisons
Proj. Northwoods, Bushistory, Ashcrofts
database/reading lists, threads of week, lies of war, yuppie fascism,
civil liberties/arrestments etc..
d) political and media analysis plus current support
for 911-investigation (US congress: McKinney, Stark,
plus opinions Ron Paul etc.., AtlantaPoll,
911-petition with 12000 sigs, diff. books from Moore
to Greg Palast), 911-website projects, independent
media portals etc..
e) Insider-oddities +details, insider-infos, last
minute topics, "breaking news"...

NOTE: Any use of non-standard English words that are in quotes within this post should not be construed by any member of DU as prejudice against Southern people, African Americans, Asian people, Northern people, Arabic people, Jewish people, Christian people or any other group save one. These words are blatant prejudice against STUPID people.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Old and In the Way Donating Member (3019 posts) Click to EMail Old%20and%20In%20the%20Way Click to send private message to Old%20and%20In%20the%20Way Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Sep-17-02, 12:43 PM (ET)
3. Hi Ewing-
Where were the tanks located? What floor? Seems to me a 7 hour fire would lead to a structural failure of the building. Wouldn't a catastrophic failure on the lower floors start converting all the potential energy to kinetic on the floors above? I that point, I would expect that upper floor column failures would be happen simultaneously.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=2574&forum=DCForumID22

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ewing2001 (3164 posts) Click to EMail ewing2001 Click to send private message to ewing2001 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Sep-17-02, 12:53 PM (ET)
Reply to post #3
4. report
LAST EDITED ON Sep-17-02 AT 01:00 PM (ET)

A partly destruction by fire would have made sense for me.
However it was a collapse, which took only a few seconds and this time definetely no melting steel was involved- this is at least what the study said.

About the gas inside the building. I hope these quotes will help.


I've read the full report a long time ago.
Here are the parts about gastanks and pipes, which had been not connected on every floor!

http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-report/WTC_ch5.pdf

"At the east end of the 5th floor...the fuel oil distribution pipe ran above this door several feet to the north of the masonry wall. The type, quality, and hardware on the door set are unknown. The position of the door (i.e., open or closed) at the time of the incident is also unknown. Also, no information was available in regard to the size of the undercut on the door..."


'"the degree of impact damage to the south façade could not be documented"

"...Con Ed reported that “the feeders supplying power to WTC 7 were de-energized at 9:59 a.m.” It is believed that the
emergency generators came on line immediately.
It is also believed that some of them may have stopped
operating because of the contamination of the intake air flowing into the carburetors and radiators..."


"the SSB generators did not use day tanks."

(SSB was on the 28th to 45th floor.)


"...If the Silverstein pump had started pumping at 10 a.m.,
when Con Ed shut down power to the building immediately following the collapse of WTC 2, and continued pumping until the collapse of WTC 7 at 5:20 p.m., less than 2,000 gallons would have been
used. The residual 20,000 gallons found in the two 12,000-gallon tanks, therefore, can not be used as an indicator of whether or not the Silverstein generator sets were on line and running..."


Floor 2, most important part for me:

"...Currently, there are no data available on the post-collapse condition of the OEM 6,000-gallon tank located between the 2nd and 3rd floors.


Floor 7:

"....The OEM system also included a 275-gallon day tank located on
the 7th floor..."

No pipes connected to...

"...The 275-gallon tank associated with the American Express generator was located at the west end of
the 8th floor. If full, the 275 gallons represent a potential of about 600 MegaJoules, which would be enough to cause a serious fire that could spread to other fuels, but not felt to be enough to threaten the
stability of the building’s structural elements..."

The bridge was mysteriously still standing:

"...the collapse of WTC 2 did not significantly affect the roof, or the east, west, and north elevations of WTC 7. It is unknown if there was any damage to the south elevation after WTC 2
collapsed, but both the covered, tubular pedestrian bridge (see Figure 5-13) and the Plaza bridge were still
standing after the collapse of WTC 2..."

Which brings me to another question:
Which phantom debris was able to hit b7, after both towers already collapsed?

The last chance was at 10:29

"At 10:29 a.m., WTC 1 (the north tower) collapsed, sending its debris into the streets below. The extent and severity of the resulting damage to WTC 7 are currently unknown...."

"....It is currently unclear what fuel may have been present to permit the fires to burn on these lower floors for approximately 7 hours...."

Or this (color of smoke indicates different fuel!):

"...The change in the color and buoyancy of the smoke as the day progressed may indicate a change in
the behavior of the fires...."

5.6 Potential Collapse Mechanism

"...There is no clear evidence of exactly where or on which floor the initiating failure occurred..."

"...Fuel oil leakage from the 5th floor is also a
possibility; however, no evidence of leakage paths in the east end of the second floor was reported...."

Finally:

"...Fuel oil was distributed through the 5th
floor in a double-wall iron pipe. A portion of the piping ran in close proximity to Truss 1. However, there is
no physical, photographic, or other evidence to substantiate or refute the discharge of fuel oil from the
piping system...."

PS:
I try later to make a list of the Tenants.
It's also in the study at
Table 5.1 WTC 7 Tenants

In this list is no mention of a gas tank on the 23rd floor.
On the 7th floor: OEM Generators and day tank
1: fuel storage etc...
46-47: Mechanical floors

GROUND ZERO Forum NYC
http://www.ourDNA.org
http://www.lebensaspekte.de
http://forums.delphiforums.com/ground_zero2001

Supporter of the 911-Skepticism Movement NYC, Washington, San Francisco, Ohio, Portland etc...

Support public LIHOP-evidence now, SETUP later!

Please donate for GZ Forum NYC. Every $10 counts.
(telephone bills, phone research, PR costs, media tools,video distribution,
hardware upgrade, security solutions, provider costs, various investigations etc...)
Info at http://www.lebensaspekte.de/groundzero/donation.html

The last NYC- 911-skepticism forum was
during the anniversary week of Sep11th in NYC at various events.
Our files had been handled over to Martin Luther King III, Patti Smith, Spooky (Eric B. Miller), Nina Hagen and other VIPs who wished to remain anonymous.

The first NYC-911Skeptic Event was in December 2001 in NYC at Joe's Gallery.

The first biggest NYC-911Skeptic Event was on May 3rd to 5th in NYC, 135 west 42nd St. (bet. 6th & 7th Ave) at Chashama Theater, Times Square.

It included also a panel on May 4th, streamed live over the net with panelists from DU, guerrillanews, GZ, Alex Jones.com and a live phone session with Oswald Le Winter (Portugal, Ex-USA).

The last SF-911-skepticism forum was during the anniversary week of Sep11th.

They started succesfully with a rally in front of the office of Diane Feinstein in January 2002.


The last Washington-911 skepticism forum was on June 10th in National Press Center including Julie Sweeney (NYC), J. Michael Springmann (ex- Jeddah "CIA"-Consulate, where 10-15 visas for the 911 hijackers had been filed, Lorna Brett FAA/Airline Accountability, Mary Schiavo, Esq. FAA/Airline Accountability, Michael Ruppert (copvcia), Tom Flocco (911- insider trading story) and John Judge, Air Defenses/NORAD/Pentagon-Specialist etc..., organised by http://www.unansweredquestions.org


The 911-skeptic contents:
a) geopolitical background (Carlyle, Harken, UNOCAL,
CentGas, DynCorp, ENRON Broadband/TSI/Taliban,
Halliburton, BAe, Northrup etc..)
b) investigative + scientific oddities, prior knowledge/early warnings, details for a set-up incl. LIHOP etc..
c) current political situation, historical comparisons
Proj. Northwoods, Bushistory, Ashcrofts
database/reading lists, threads of week, lies of war, yuppie fascism,
civil liberties/arrestments etc..
d) political and media analysis plus current support
for 911-investigation (US congress: McKinney, Stark,
plus opinions Ron Paul etc.., AtlantaPoll,
911-petition with 12000 sigs, diff. books from Moore
to Greg Palast), 911-website projects, independent
media portals etc..
e) Insider-oddities +details, insider-infos, last
minute topics, "breaking news"...

NOTE: Any use of non-standard English words that are in quotes within this post should not be construed by any member of DU as prejudice against Southern people, African Americans, Asian people, Northern people, Arabic people, Jewish people, Christian people or any other group save one. These words are blatant prejudice against STUPID people.

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LARED (401 posts) Click to EMail LARED Click to send private message to LARED Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Sep-17-02, 04:00 PM (ET)
5. Cutter Charges
At the risk of being called a troll, why do you believe that puffs of smoke exiting the building prove that cutter charges were used. It would seem to me that a very straight forward answer is that as the building collapsed any smokey, dusty, air inside is forced out of building via broken windows.

You state Picture 1 is just when the collapse started...Pictures 2-4 show (highlighted) puffs of smoke coming out of the upper floors. The puffs appear to come out of the columns.

How can anyone determine if the puffs are from a column with that video? It seems simple enough, the floors of the building collapse, forcing smokey air between the floors to exit the building.

I'm not trying to be aggressive or a troll, but if you're interested in an investigation that is established on genuine facts rather than speculation some dialectic dialogue is important. If your only interested in a conspiracy convention I'll stay out of it.

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Merdesquared (27 posts) Click to EMail Merdesquared Click to send private message to Merdesquared Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Sep-17-02, 04:31 PM (ET)
Reply to post #5
6. Another view of WTC-7 collapse
Here's a different angle that shows the whole roof line. All the smoke and dust seems to come from near the bottom:

(to avoid slowing the thread I put the 'x' an the beginning - just cut and paste to view the animation)

xhttp://thewebfairy.com/whatzit/wtc-7<1>.gif

"Nothing is more annoying in the ordinary intercourse of life than this irritable patriotism of the Americans. A foreigner will gladly agree to praise much in their
country, but he would like to be allowed to criticize something, and that is absolutely refused."
-- Alexis de Tocqueville

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ewing2001 (3164 posts) Click to EMail ewing2001 Click to send private message to ewing2001 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Sep-17-02, 04:47 PM (ET)
Reply to post #6
8. addy
xhttp://thewebfairy.com/whatzit/wtc-71.gif

what's the exact addy (without x)?
I had no luck open it.

GROUND ZERO Forum NYC
http://www.ourDNA.org
http://www.lebensaspekte.de
http://forums.delphiforums.com/ground_zero2001

Supporter of the 911-Skepticism Movement NYC, Washington, San Francisco, Ohio, Portland etc...

Support public LIHOP-evidence now, SETUP later!

Please donate for GZ Forum NYC. Every $10 counts.
(telephone bills, phone research, PR costs, media tools,video distribution,
hardware upgrade, security solutions, provider costs, various investigations etc...)
Info at http://www.lebensaspekte.de/groundzero/donation.html

The last NYC- 911-skepticism forum was
during the anniversary week of Sep11th in NYC at various events.
Our files had been handled over to Martin Luther King III, Patti Smith, Spooky (Eric B. Miller), Nina Hagen and other VIPs who wished to remain anonymous.

The first NYC-911Skeptic Event was in December 2001 in NYC at Joe's Gallery.

The first biggest NYC-911Skeptic Event was on May 3rd to 5th in NYC, 135 west 42nd St. (bet. 6th & 7th Ave) at Chashama Theater, Times Square.

It included also a panel on May 4th, streamed live over the net with panelists from DU, guerrillanews, GZ, Alex Jones.com and a live phone session with Oswald Le Winter (Portugal, Ex-USA).

The last SF-911-skepticism forum was during the anniversary week of Sep11th.

They started succesfully with a rally in front of the office of Diane Feinstein in January 2002.


The last Washington-911 skepticism forum was on June 10th in National Press Center including Julie Sweeney (NYC), J. Michael Springmann (ex- Jeddah "CIA"-Consulate, where 10-15 visas for the 911 hijackers had been filed, Lorna Brett FAA/Airline Accountability, Mary Schiavo, Esq. FAA/Airline Accountability, Michael Ruppert (copvcia), Tom Flocco (911- insider trading story) and John Judge, Air Defenses/NORAD/Pentagon-Specialist etc..., organised by http://www.unansweredquestions.org


The 911-skeptic contents:
a) geopolitical background (Carlyle, Harken, UNOCAL,
CentGas, DynCorp, ENRON Broadband/TSI/Taliban,
Halliburton, BAe, Northrup etc..)
b) investigative + scientific oddities, prior knowledge/early warnings, details for a set-up incl. LIHOP etc..
c) current political situation, historical comparisons
Proj. Northwoods, Bushistory, Ashcrofts
database/reading lists, threads of week, lies of war, yuppie fascism,
civil liberties/arrestments etc..
d) political and media analysis plus current support
for 911-investigation (US congress: McKinney, Stark,
plus opinions Ron Paul etc.., AtlantaPoll,
911-petition with 12000 sigs, diff. books from Moore
to Greg Palast), 911-website projects, independent
media portals etc..
e) Insider-oddities +details, insider-infos, last
minute topics, "breaking news"...

NOTE: Any use of non-standard English words that are in quotes within this post should not be construed by any member of DU as prejudice against Southern people, African Americans, Asian people, Northern people, Arabic people, Jewish people, Christian people or any other group save one. These words are blatant prejudice against STUPID people.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Merdesquared (27 posts) Click to EMail Merdesquared Click to send private message to Merdesquared Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Sep-17-02, 09:16 PM (ET)
Reply to post #8
11. Oops...
There should be square brackets around the '1' at the end. The DU software deletes them. It's a 3.8MB file, but as an animated GIF it's easy to extract frames.


"Nothing is more annoying in the ordinary intercourse of life than this irritable patriotism of the Americans. A foreigner will gladly agree to praise much in their
country, but he would like to be allowed to criticize something, and that is absolutely refused."
-- Alexis de Tocqueville

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

ewing2001 (3164 posts) Click to EMail ewing2001 Click to send private message to ewing2001 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster Click to add this poster to your Friend List
Sep-17-02, 04:37 PM (ET)
Reply to post #5
7. collection
LAST EDITED ON Sep-17-02 AT 04:40 PM (ET)

LARED, this was just a collection of the latest facts on Building 7.
I'm not interested in the smoke analysis, someone else might.

I try to prove, that Building 7, the DoD and CIA destroyed the Twin Towers (probably with the help of thermobarics) and later itself.

This might take a while, but maybe not, when i finished with the official emission statistics, which i already have on my desk.

I think, B7 was a controlled collapse and it's easier to prove than at the Twin Towers.

And yes, if this thread turns into a trollfest i will personally send all DU-Administrators warnings about these incidents.


GROUND ZERO Forum NYC
http://www.ourDNA.org
http://www.lebensaspekte.de
http://forums.delphiforums.com/ground_zero2001

Supporter of the 911-Skepticism Movement NYC, Washington, San Francisco, Ohio, Portland etc...

Support public LIHOP-evidence now, SETUP later!

Please donate for GZ Forum NYC. Every $10 counts.
(telephone bills, phone research, PR costs, media tools,video distribution,
hardware upgrade, security solutions, provider costs, various investigations etc...)
Info at http://www.lebensaspekte.de/groundzero/donation.html

The last NYC- 911-skepticism forum was
during the anniversary week of Sep11th in NYC at various events.
Our files had been handled over to Martin Luther King III, Patti Smith, Spooky (Eric B. Miller), Nina Hagen and other VIPs who wished to remain anonymous.

The first NYC-911Skeptic Event was in December 2001 in NYC at Joe's Gallery.

The first biggest NYC-911Skeptic Event was on May 3rd to 5th in NYC, 135 west 42nd St. (bet. 6th & 7th Ave) at Chashama Theater, Times Square.

It included also a panel on May 4th, streamed live over the net with panelists from DU, guerrillanews, GZ, Alex Jones.com and a live phone session with Oswald Le Winter (Portugal, Ex-USA).

The last SF-911-skepticism forum was during the anniversary week of Sep11th.

They started succesfully with a rally in front of the office of Diane Feinstein in January 2002.


The last Washington-911 skepticism forum was on June 10th in National Press Center including Julie Sweeney (NYC), J. Michael Springmann (ex- Jeddah "CIA"-Consulate, where 10-15 visas for the 911 hijackers had been filed, Lorna Brett FAA/Airline Accountability, Mary Schiavo, Esq. FAA/Airline Accountability, Michael Ruppert (copvcia), Tom Flocco (911- ins