79||0|3 0|0|W.W.J.D.%3F|khephra||20:21:48|12/23/2001|W.W.J.D.%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AMy dear brother George%3A %0D%0A%0D%0AMay the peace of our Lord %28and me%29 be upon you in this celebration season of my birth. %0D%0A%0D%0AYou have been much in my heart of late. Partly this is because I know the crushing pressure you feel as leader of the richest and most powerful nation on Earth. %0D%0A%0D%0AAlso%2C it is impossible not to think of you%3A Millions of people -- millions%2C George -- pray for you every day. People of all faiths and denominations. People in countries you have never visited. %0D%0A%0D%0AEven people who believe in no God offer up prayers of hope when they hear you speak or see you on television because you hold their fate in your hands. %0D%0A%0D%0ASince Sept. 11%2C dear brother%2C I have noticed that you have turned away from me. I do not hear you ask yourself or anyone else the question you once asked all the time%3A %22What would Jesus do%3F%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AMORe...................%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.sfgate.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Farticle.cgi%3Ff%3D%2Fc%2Fa%2F2001%2F12%2F23%2FED68324.DTL%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bhr%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%222%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%5BMarquee%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fkhephra.freeservers.com%2Fimages%2Fankh_wobl.gif %22If it wasn%27t for my horse%2C I wouldn%27t have spent that year in college.%22 -- Lewis Black http%3A%2F%2Fkhephra.freeservers.com%2Fimages%2Fankh_wobl.gif %5B%2FMarquee%5D%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 1|1|jesus would bomb the shit out of some brown people%21|unblock||20:35:08|12/23/2001|jesus would also have no respect for %22their%22 innocents because %22they%22 had no respect for ours.%0D%0A%0D%0Ajesus would make sure a drug and booze-adled village idiot was at the nuclear helm in order to suck the oxygen out of caves so we can later identify who%27s been killed.%0D%0A%0D%0Ajesus would make sure anyone who disagreed was locked up for good.%0D%0A%0D%0Ajesus would make sure that the village idiot could choose which nation to bomb next without needing to consult any congress%2C court%2C or voters.%0D%0A%0D%0Ajesus would insist it wasn%27t about religion.%0D%0A%0D%0Aand jesus would demand vast sums of money.|0 5|2|The Jesus of myth%2C%2C%2C%2C%2C%2C|tsstranger||22:17:14|12/23/2001|%2C%2C%2C%2C%2Cwould have been a brown person. If he had existed%2C as a man of his time and place%2C he would have been dark skinned%2C with dark%2C thick hair and dark eyes.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DAmerican POW%27s %28Prisoners of Dubya%29 unite.%5B%2Ffont%5D|1 7|3|the jesus myth|arctiksounds||22:49:32|12/23/2001|are you refering to that psuedo-historical book%3F What I think is funny is how people quickly doubt the existence of Jesus%2C but no other historical figure with even less historical evidence than Jesus. You don%27t have to %22believe%22 in Jesus to Know he did exist. I%27m just sick of internet atheist sites who try to argue against Jesus existence. I find it comparative to creationists%2C almost. It is agreed by mainstream scholars that Jesus did exist. This does not mean they believe in his divinity. %0D%0AJust my rant%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DThe working class and the %0D%0Aemploying class have nothing in %0D%0Acommon. There can be no peace so %0D%0Along as hunger and want are found %0D%0Aamong millions of the working %0D%0Apeople and the few%2C who make up %0D%0Athe employing class%2C have all the %0D%0Agood things of life. %0D%0A%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0 %0D%0ABetween these two classes a %0D%0Astruggle must go on until the workers %0D%0Aof the world organize as a class%2C take %0D%0Apossession of the means of %0D%0Aproduction%2C abolish the wage %0D%0Asystem%2C and live in harmony with the %0D%0AEarth. www.IWW.org%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|5 8|4|what baffles me|unblock||22:52:33|12/23/2001|is how the death of a jew at the hands of romans could be turned into an excuse to hate jews.|7 10|5|It%27s based on a verse that was added...|Lydia Leftcoast||00:23:58|12/24/2001|after relations between Christians and Jews got tense.%0D%0A%0D%0AOriginally%2C almost all followers of Jesus were Jewish%2C and they were accepted as just another variant on Judaism%2C since there were a lot of itinerant preachers with disciples roaming around Judea during Roman times. Then they began insisting on the divinity of Jesus%2C which was heresy%2C and accepting Gentile converts without requiring them to convert to Judaism first. Paul%2C who started out as a strictly observant Jew and had even taken part in blasphemy trials against Christians%2C was converted and with a convert%27s typical zeal%2C began writing about how Jesus had superseded the Jewish law.%0D%0A%0D%0AClearly%2C the two religions had parted ways.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe later books of the New Testament that there were two factions in the early movement. One%2C led by James%2C the brother of Jesus%2C wanted to stay Jewish. Paul%27s faction did not.%0D%0A%0D%0ALike teenagers trying to disassociate themselves from their parents%2C they wrote as if the Jews had nothing to do with them. Now the authors of the Gospels mention Jesus being a pain in the butt to the religious right of his day %28the Pharisees%2C the forerunners of today%27s ultra-Orthodox groups%29%2C but they also refer to %22the Jews%22 as the enemy%2C as if Jesus and his disciples were not themselves Jews.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe %22Christ killer%22 slander comes from a passage %28Matthew 27%3A25%29in which Pilate tells the crowd that he doesn%27t want to crucify Jesus%2C at which point the crowd yells back%2C %22His blood be upon us and upon our children.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AThis passage began to be used during the Middle Ages%2C when the feudal system prevailed. Peasants would get restless when they thought too much about the fact that they had to work their lord%27s land and pay fees to use his farming equipment and buy presents for the special occasions in his life and turn over most of their crops and produce to him. Clever feudal lords realized the value of scapegoating%2C so when the peasants started grumbling%2C this was the signal to tell the village priest to preach on Matthew 27%3A25 and urge the peasants to go slaughter the nearest Jewish community.%0D%0A%0D%0AIronically%2C according to standard Christian theology%2C and even more so to fundamentalist theology%2C Jesus was %5Bi%5Dsupposed%5B%2Fi%5D to die as part of God%27s plan%2C so by that token%2C the people who killed him did what they were supposed to.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut never let the facts get in the way of scapegoating efforts.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22Be ye therefore wise as serpents and %0D%0Aharmless as doves.%22--- Matthew 10%3A16%0D%0A%0D%0AThe Biblical tax plan%3A %22For unto %0D%0Awhomsoever much is given%2C of him shall %0D%0Abe much required%22 ---Luke 12%3A48%5B%2Ffont%5D|8 9|4|Jesus myth%2C indeed|lazarus||23:11:15|12/23/2001|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Dec-23-01 AT 11:15 PM (ET)[/font][p]There is no proof of his existence%2C therefore we doubt it. See%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd%2C no%2C mainstream historians do not accept his existence. Mainstream Christians do%2C but again%2C there is no proof.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|7 11|5|no proof of him%3F|arctiksounds||00:32:20|12/24/2001|I really don%27t think you%27ve done that much research on this. You would know that there is evidence of his existence.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22mainstream historians do not accept his existence.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AYou%27re right%2C they don%27t %22believe%22 in his historical existence. They know he once existed. Christians says Jesus Still exists. This does not have to mean you believe in God. If you cut Jesus out of the picture%2C you then will have to take a whole lot more people out of our history books. I really don%27t care if you believe he existed or not%2C It doesn%27t matter to your everyday life. This is just a pet peeve of mine. %0D%0A The degree of insistence some take %28not personally you%29 to reject Jesus historical existence makes me doubt their reasons for their opinion. Just something I%27ve noticed that%27s all.%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DThe working class and the %0D%0Aemploying class have nothing in %0D%0Acommon. There can be no peace so %0D%0Along as hunger and want are found %0D%0Aamong millions of the working %0D%0Apeople and the few%2C who make up %0D%0Athe employing class%2C have all the %0D%0Agood things of life. %0D%0A%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0 %0D%0ABetween these two classes a %0D%0Astruggle must go on until the workers %0D%0Aof the world organize as a class%2C take %0D%0Apossession of the means of %0D%0Aproduction%2C abolish the wage %0D%0Asystem%2C and live in harmony with the %0D%0AEarth. www.IWW.org%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|9 14|6|Okay%2C then|lazarus||01:25:18|12/24/2001|Prove it. Prove he existed. Prove that he probably existed%2C even.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|11 12|5|There%27s as much proof of the existence of Jesus as there is...|Lydia Leftcoast||01:04:27|12/24/2001|of the existence of Socrates and Gautama Buddha.%0D%0A%0D%0ASocrates is known only from the writings of his pupil Plato. No other historical record of him survives.%0D%0A%0D%0AAs far as I know%2C there are no historical records of Gautama%2C but most accounts I have read believe that there is a core of truth%2C that there was a historical Indian prince whose consciousness was raised and who left his opulent life to pursue a life of poverty and contemplation. Are all the stories about him true%3F No.%0D%0A%0D%0A%28I%27ve heard that there are pretty good records of Confucius and even documented descendants of his in northern China%2C but here%2C too%2C it%27s hard to tell what he actually said and what his followers added later.%29%0D%0A%0D%0AThere are no independent historical records of Jesus%2C but there are brief mentions of other itinerant preachers who roamed the countryside with their disciples. Why not one more%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AWe%27re talking about 2%2C000 years ago in a land that has been the site of continual warfare forever. At that time depth%2C the survival of any historical documentation is sheer luck. We%27re obviously not going to find Jesus%27 birth certificate or photos of his bar mitzvah. Court records of his trial%3F I wonder if the court records of anyone who was tried in Jerusalem during those years have survived%2C especially since the city was destroyed by the Romans after a rebellion in 70 A.D.%0D%0A%0D%0AWe know that Pontius Pilate %28a Roman official%29 and the dynasty of Herods %28puppet kings under the Romans%29 existed. We know that the Romans crucified people all the time.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe left wing of Christian scholarship %28Bishop Spong%2C Marcus Borg%2C Dominic Crossan%2C etc.%29 holds these views%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A1. There was a Jesus%2C but many of the biographical details told about him are untrue%2C later embellishments and adaptations of stories that were told about a lot of religious figures in those days.%0D%0A%0D%0A2. None of the people who wrote the books of the New Testament could have known Jesus personally. Paul%27s letters are the earliest%2C and they date from about 30 years after the crucifixion. He himself says that he never met Jesus in the flesh. The earliest written Gospels comes from perhaps 40-50 years later. They were written down precisely because all the old timers who had first-hand information had died.%0D%0A%0D%0A%28The earliest Christians expected Jesus to return and establish the Kingdom of God within their lifetimes%2C so they felt no need to write anything down.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A3. These scholars believe that some of the sayings attributed to Jesus%2C such as the aphorisms in the Sermon on the Mount%2C are genuine%2C because they represent a coherent worldview and unified preaching style. Others%2C especially the ones that sound odd %28%22I am the light of the world%22%29 are allegorical interpretations of Jesus%27 role and were added when the Gospels were written down.%0D%0A%0D%0A4. The Gospels were written in Greek%2C which was the common trade language of the multi-ethnic eastern Mediterranean and also known to most educated Romans%2C so as to reach the widest possible audience. They were written with different purposes in mind. Mark is considered the basic plot outline. Luke has the most biographical material%2C such as the Christmas story. John is an attempt to interpret Jesus in terms of Greek philosophy%2C so it has most of the %22weird%22 passages. %0D%0A%0D%0A5. There were other gospels that did not make it into the final edition of the Bible. They are similar in some respects%2C different in others. This is due to stories about Jesus circulating in the oral tradition for nearly 100 years before being written down.%0D%0A%0D%0AOne might question the reliability of the oral tradition%2C but there are two striking examples from Native Americans. When the first white settlers came to southern Oregon%2C the local Indians told them that Crater Lake had been formed when a mountain blew its top off and filled with water. I don%27t know what the settlers thought%2C but geologists later proved that this had happened--seven thousand years before.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe other example comes from the Delaware tribe%2C which lived in the mid-Atlantic region at the time of colonization. Their oral tribal history tells of traveling for years through a land where summer never came and through another land where the mountains had snow year round. If you know your anthropology and archeology%2C you immediately think of the theory that the Native Americans came from Siberia and spread throughout the American continents from there. %28Well%2C according to most recent discoveries%2C at least some of them did that. Others may have come by other routes.%29 The time depth here is 15%2C000 years.%0D%0A%0D%0AI don%27t blame anyone for being an atheist these days%2C given all the skullduggery the fundies have been up to%2C and if you don%27t want to believe that Jesus was divine%2C fine. But to state categorically that you are positive that he never existed even as a human being is a much stronger statement than to say that there is no evidence that convinces you.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe point of all this is that while there is no utterly conclusive proof of Jesus%27 existence%2C if you flatly insist that Jesus could not have existed%2C then you have to deny the existence of Socrates%2C Gautama%2C and all sorts of other figures of the ancient world as well. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22Be ye therefore wise as serpents and %0D%0Aharmless as doves.%22--- Matthew 10%3A16%0D%0A%0D%0AThe Biblical tax plan%3A %22For unto %0D%0Awhomsoever much is given%2C of him shall %0D%0Abe much required%22 ---Luke 12%3A48%5B%2Ffont%5D|9 15|6|Jesus%3F|Archae||02:26:05|12/24/2001|First of all there was no such person NAMED %22Jesus.%22%0D%0AJesus is a Greek corruption of the original Hebrew name%2C %22Jeshua.%22%0D%0AIt is very possible that Jeshua was a real person.%0D%0AThere were many would-be religious %22prophets%22 in Israel at that time.%0D%0ARemember%2C they were a conquered country%2C under a foreign nation%27s thumb. %28The Romans.%29%0D%0ASo would-be religious rebels popped up on a regular basis.%0D%0A%28One movie based on this was %22The Life Of Brian.%22%29%0D%0AThe original cult of Jeshua survived the death of it%27s prophet%2C and continued%2C albeit mostly underground.%0D%0AAfter gaining political acceptance in Rome and later Constantinople%2C the early church split with Judaism completely%2C using the Greek version of Jeshua%2C and adopting other anti-Jew themes.%0D%0AIt was mainly due to political means%2C such as theocracy and conquering other countries that Christianity spread as far as it did.%0D%0AMost of those who questioned the official church in Rome either shut up quickly%2C or were imprisoned%2C tortured and killed.%0D%0AUntil Martin Luther got political support and protection from Germany%27s rulers.|12 17|7|A Contemporary Jewish-Roman writer called Josephus|Gussie||02:38:39|12/24/2001|wrote about the war between the Romans and the Jews. He mentions James%2C the brother of Jesus but not Jesus himself. This is not to say that Jesus didn%27t exist%2C just that he was not particularly important at the time.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22Do you want this war to end on a note of triumph or disaster%3F%22%0D%0A%22Either way%2C man. Just so it swings%21%22%0D%0AStan Freeberg%27s United States of America%5B%2Ffont%5D|15 21|8|simply not true|lazarus||01:44:49|12/25/2001|Josephus mentioned something that could possibly be interpreted as that if you really want to. About the same veracity as Nostradamus.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|17 24|9|hello|arctiksounds||00:07:27|12/26/2001|%22Josephus mentioned something that could possibly be interpreted as that if you really want to. About the same veracity as Nostradamus.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AFirst off historians don%27t %22prove%27 anyone existed. History is pretty much a matter of probability based upon best guess from documentary sources. The existence of Jesus has been accepted by history for centuries. IT is the skeptic%27s burden to overturn that presumption and prove that Jesus did not exist. The usual argument against Jesus non-existence is one from silence%2C which is pretty much not an argument at all. Also historians do not dismiss the existence of an historical person just because supernatural claims are involved. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe main proponent of the view that Jesus never existed has been the GermanProfessor G.A. Wells %28NOT an NT scholar%29. %0D%0A An agnostic named Robin Lane Fox who is a biblical scholar accepts Jesus existence. Here is his book called %22The Unauthorized version%3Atruth and fiction in the bible%22 http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fexec%2Fobidos%2FASIN%2F0394573986%2Fqid%3D1009341317%2Fsr%3D1-3%2Fref%3Dsr_1_10_3%2F102-7337536-1319355. This is one of the majority of biblical scholars who accept Jesus historical existence.%0D%0A%0D%0AEncyclopedia. Britannica says%2C in its discussion of the multiple extra-biblical witnesses %28Tacitus%2C Josephus%2C the Talmud%2C etc.%29%3A%22These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponentsof Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus%2C which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds by several authors at the end of the 18th%2C during the 19th%2C and at the beginning of the 20th centuries.%22%28Article on %22Jesus%22%2C 1990%29 %0D%0A %0D%0AAnd another quote--%0D%0A%0D%0A%22When we look for statements about Jesus from non canonical writings of the1st or 2nd century A.D.%2C we are at first disappointed by the lack of references. We have to remember that Jews and pagans of this period%2C if they were at all aware of a new religious phenomenon on the horizon%2C would be more aware of the nascent group called Christianity than of its putative founder Jesus. Some of these writers%2C at least%2C had direct or indirect contact with Christians%3B none of them had had contact with the Christ Christians worshiped. This simply reminds us that Jesus was a marginal Jew leading a marginal movement in a marginal province of a vast Roman Empire.The wonder is that any learned Jew or pagan would have known or referred tohim at all in the 1st or early 2nd century.%22 .%22%5BJohn P. Meier%2C A MarginalJew%3A Rethinking the Historical Jesus %28New York%3A Doubleday%2C 1994%29%5D %0D%0A%0D%0AAntiquities 20.9%3A1%3A Jospehus%0D%0A%0D%0A%22But the younger Ananus who%2C as we said%2C received the high priesthood%2C was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring%3B he followed the party of the Sadducees%2C who are severe in judgment above all the Jews%2C as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition%2C he thought he had now a good opportunity%2C as Festus was now dead%2C and Albinus was still on the road%3B so he assembled a council of judges%2C and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ%2C whose name was James%2C together with some others%2C and having accused them as law-breakers%2C he delivered them over to be stoned.%22%0D%0A%0D%0ANotice the %22so-called Christ%22 which is actually a disparaging remark. And also %22brother of James%22 which goes against the catholic tradition of Jesus being a single child. This is hardly comparable to Nostradamus. Josephus was an historian.%0D%0A%0D%0A%A0 Van Voorst who is referring to the mythicists%2C states that %22Contemporary New Testament scholars have typically viewed their arguments as so weak or bizarre that they relegate them to footnotes%2C or often ignore them completely.%22 %5BRobert E. Van Voorst%2C %22Jesus Outside the New Testament%22%2C %28Michigan%3A Eerdmans Publishing Co.%2C 2000%29%2C p. 6.%5D %0D%0A%0D%0AThis stuff on the internet about Jesus never existing is just that%2C only taken seriously on the internet. No academic scholar or historian takes this seriously. A lot of atheist sites I go to use this argument. I find it troubling%2C I almost find this willfull ignorance%2C similar to creationists.%0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DThe working class and the %0D%0Aemploying class have nothing in %0D%0Acommon. There can be no peace so %0D%0Along as hunger and want are found %0D%0Aamong millions of the working %0D%0Apeople and the few%2C who make up %0D%0Athe employing class%2C have all the %0D%0Agood things of life. %0D%0A%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0 %0D%0ABetween these two classes a %0D%0Astruggle must go on until the workers %0D%0Aof the world organize as a class%2C take %0D%0Apossession of the means of %0D%0Aproduction%2C abolish the wage %0D%0Asystem%2C and live in harmony with the %0D%0AEarth. www.IWW.org%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|21 26|10|About Josephus|lazarus||00:56:09|12/26/2001|There is a lot of evidence that the Jesus comment was added in at a later time%3B no copies of Josephus from before the 10th century exist%2C and the comment doesn%27t fit his writing style. In all other cases%2C when he refers to someone for the first time%2C he goes into some depth as to who they are. Here%2C he seems to be placing Jesus in a fairly high place%2C since he is identifying James as his brother%2C as if %22the brother of Jesus%22 were enough identification. And yet he never explains who Jesus is. Why is that%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ASteve Mason says%3A%0D%0A%5Bi%5D%0D%0AFirst%2C the word %22Christ%22 %28Greek christos%29 would have special meaning only for a Jewish audience. In Greek it means simply %22wetted%22 or %22anointed.%22 Within the Jewish world%2C this was an extremely significant term because anointing was the means by which the kings and high priests of Israel had been installed. The pouring of oil over their heads represented their assumption of God-given authority %28Exod 29%3A9%3B 1 Sam 10%3A1%29. The same Hebrew word for %22anointed%22 was mashiach%2C which we know usually as the noun Messiah%2C %22the anointed %5Bone%5D.%22 Although used in the OT of reigning kings and high priests%2C many Jews of Jesus%27 day looked forward to an end-time prophet%2C priest%2C king%2C or someone else who would be duly anointed. %0D%0ABut for someone who did not know the Jewish tradition%2C the adjective %22wetted%22 would sound most peculiar. Why would Josephus say that this man Jesus was %22the Wetted%22%3F We can see the puzzlement of Greek-speaking readers over this term in their descriptions of Christianity%3A Jesus%27 name is sometimes altered to %22Chrestus%22 %28Suetonius%2C Claudius 25.4%29%2C a common slave name that would amke better sense%2C and the Christians are sometimes called %22Chrestians.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0ASince Josephus is usually sensitive to his audience and pauses to explain unfamiliar terms or aspects of Jewish life%2C it is very strange that he would make the bald assertion%2C without explanation%2C that Jesus was %22Christ.%22%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AWhy%2C also%2C does Josephus%2C in an attempt to write a history of that time%2C somehow miss all the amazing things that supposedly happened%3F There%27s no mention of the earth standing still%2C or mysterious darkness%2C or anything else.%0D%0A%0D%0AIn Who is this King of Glory%3F%2C p. 258-9%2C Dr. Alvin Boyd Kuhn says%3A%0D%0A%5Bi%5D%0D%0A%22The average Christian minister who has not read outside the pale of accredited Church authorities will impart to any parishioner making the inquiry the information that no event in history iis better attested by witness than the occurences in the Gospel narrative of Christ%27s life. He will go over the usual citation of the historians who mention Jesus and the letters claiming to have been written about him. When the credulous questioner%2C putting trust in the intelligence and good faith of his pastor%2C gets this answer%2C he goes away assured on the point of the veracity of the Gospel story. The pastor does not qualify his data with the information that the practice of forgery%2C fictionizing and fable was rampant in the early Church. In the simple interest of truth%2C then%2C it is important to examine the body of alleged testimony from secular history and see what credibility and authority it possess.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22First%2C as to the historians whose works record the existence of Jesus%2C the list comprises but four. They are Pliny%2C Tacitus%2C Suetonius and Josephus. There are short paragraphs in the works of each of these%2C two in Josephus. The total quantity of this material is given by Harry Elmer Barnes in The Twilight of Christianity as some twenty-four lines. It may total a little more%2C perhaps twice that amount. This meager testimony constitutes the body or mass of the evidence of %27one of the best attested events in history.%27 Even if it could be accepted as indisputably authentic and reliable%2C it would be faltering support for an event that has dominated the thought of half the world for eighteen centuries.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22But what is the standing of this witness%3F Not even Catholic scholars of importance have dissented from a general agreement of academic investigators that these passages%2C one and all%2C must by put down as forgeries and interpolations by partisan Christian scribes who wished zealously to array the authority of these historians behind the historicity of the Gospel life of Jesus. A sum total of forty or fifty lines from secular history supporting the existence of Jesus of Nazareth%2C and they completely discredited%21%22%0D%0A%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AIn addition%2C other historians at the time somehow failed to note the existence of Jesus.%0D%0A%0D%0AJesus is merely the name attached to a conglomeration of other myths%2C primarily Mithras. His life story matches the Mythic Hero concept%2C and the only thing outside the %22Gospels%22--which were written much later and are wildly contradictory--which is presented as proof is one or two short comments purportedly by someone living a century or more later. And%2C of course%2C we don%27t even have an original copy of that%2C but copies of copies that had been filtered by the Church.%0D%0A%0D%0AToo many problems exist with the existence of Jesus%2C and we%27re expected to prove he didn%27t exist%3F Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. That he existed seems to me the more extraordinary claim.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|24 29|11|hi|arctiksounds||14:57:29|12/26/2001|%22In addition%2C other historians at the time somehow failed to note the existence of Jesus.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AThis is an argument from silence. I%27m not saying Jesus was considered important to anyone outside of Christianity%2C which is very small at that time. Just because someone doesn%27t report someones existence doesn%27t mean that person didn%27t exist. How were they to know much of anything about him before Christianity became so big%3F How were they to know this peasent was going to start one of the largest religions ever%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Why%2C also%2C does Josephus%2C in an attempt to write a history of that time%2C somehow miss all the amazing things that supposedly happened%3F There%27s no mention of the earth standing still%2C or mysterious darkness%2C or anything else.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m not saying any miracles did happen%2C that%27s your hang up. Historians do not dismiss Jesus because miracles are attatched to him.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Too many problems exist with the existence of Jesus%2C and we%27re expected to prove he didn%27t exist%3F%22%0D%0A%0D%0AYes I%27am. All mainstream historians and biblical scholars accept the existence of Jesus. They are not saying the miracles or the ressurection happened%2C but that he existed. Since these professional scholars accept and agree on this it is the skeptics burden to prove otherwise.%0D%0A%0D%0APossibly I%27ll post more on this.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DThe working class and the %0D%0Aemploying class have nothing in %0D%0Acommon. There can be no peace so %0D%0Along as hunger and want are found %0D%0Aamong millions of the working %0D%0Apeople and the few%2C who make up %0D%0Athe employing class%2C have all the %0D%0Agood things of life. %0D%0A%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0 %0D%0ABetween these two classes a %0D%0Astruggle must go on until the workers %0D%0Aof the world organize as a class%2C take %0D%0Apossession of the means of %0D%0Aproduction%2C abolish the wage %0D%0Asystem%2C and live in harmony with the %0D%0AEarth. www.IWW.org%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|26 31|12|That would be nice|lazarus||16:17:17|12/26/2001|It would also be nice for you to prove that all mainstream historians accept his existence.%0D%0A%0D%0AAs to arguing from silence%2C well%2C if nobody but one discredited historian has supposedly even mentioned him%2C where%27s the proof%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AYour explanation for why no others mention him leaves out one little problem%3A Why%2C then%2C did Josephus mention him%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|29 32|13|well|arctiksounds||16:40:57|12/26/2001|%22As to arguing from silence%2C well%2C if nobody but one discredited historian has supposedly even mentioned him%2C where%27s the proof%3F%22%0D%0A%0D%0Ayou do realize that the New Testament is considered an historical document%3F That historians both atheist and theist use the bible and other religious books to learn more about history%3F Again just because it is religious and has miracles does not mean it cannot be analyzed for historical reasons. Why don%27t you read the above book I posted%3F Or any other books by mainstream scholars%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DThe working class and the %0D%0Aemploying class have nothing in %0D%0Acommon. There can be no peace so %0D%0Along as hunger and want are found %0D%0Aamong millions of the working %0D%0Apeople and the few%2C who make up %0D%0Athe employing class%2C have all the %0D%0Agood things of life. %0D%0A%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0 %0D%0ABetween these two classes a %0D%0Astruggle must go on until the workers %0D%0Aof the world organize as a class%2C take %0D%0Apossession of the means of %0D%0Aproduction%2C abolish the wage %0D%0Asystem%2C and live in harmony with the %0D%0AEarth. www.IWW.org%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|31 36|14|Historical document%3F|Lithos||18:06:58|12/26/2001|The Egyptian Book of the Dead is also considered an historical document. So by your definition does that mean that the Egyptian Gods also were real%3F Beowulf is also considered an historical document as it cites numerous historical figures places and events%2C but does that mean Grendel existed%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AOh%2C you mean that they contains both good and bad history and that you have to take a reasoned and balanced approach to judging its accuracy%3F %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DA little curly-headed%2C good-for-nothing%2C%0D%0AAnd mischief-making monkey from his birth%3B %0D%0AHis parents ne%27er agreed except in doting%0D%0AUpon the most unquiet imp on earth%3B%0D%0AInstead of quarrelling%2C had they been but both in%0D%0ATheir sense%2C they%27d have sent young master forth%0D%0ATo school%2C or had him soundly whipp%27d at home%2C%0D%0ATo teach him manners for the time to come.%0D%0AByron - Don Juan Canto xxv%0D%0A|32 37|15|well|arctiksounds||18:15:23|12/26/2001|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Dec-26-01 AT 06:17 PM (ET)[/font][p]you%27re thinking in black and white. These things are dissected by historians%2Fscholars to figure out what really happened. They do this with the bible. You%27re the one who said %22no mainstream historian%22 accepts Jesus historical existence. And I%27m explaining that they do. This does not mean they %22believe%22 in jesus. %7Bsorry I think it asnother person who said that quote above%7D%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Oh%2C you mean that they contains both good and bad history and that you have to take a reasoned and balanced approach to judging its accuracy%3F%22%0D%0A%0D%0AThis is exactly what I%27m saying. And those Jesus non-historcial-existence people are not mainstream or even balanced. Read some Robin Lane Fox or any other mainstream scholar. I%27ve read that Jesus as myth stuff%2C and I%27m wans%27t convinced.%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DThe working class and the %0D%0Aemploying class have nothing in %0D%0Acommon. There can be no peace so %0D%0Along as hunger and want are found %0D%0Aamong millions of the working %0D%0Apeople and the few%2C who make up %0D%0Athe employing class%2C have all the %0D%0Agood things of life. %0D%0A%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0 %0D%0ABetween these two classes a %0D%0Astruggle must go on until the workers %0D%0Aof the world organize as a class%2C take %0D%0Apossession of the means of %0D%0Aproduction%2C abolish the wage %0D%0Asystem%2C and live in harmony with the %0D%0AEarth. www.IWW.org%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|36 39|16|Of course not|lazarus||18:55:39|12/26/2001|You can%27t be convinced if you actually accept the Bible as a historical document. Sorry%2C I didn%27t realise how far back we needed to frame the debate. I%27ll be back in a bit%2C and will be happy to show you that the Bible is most definitely %5Bi%5Dnot%5B%2Fi%5D a historical document.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|37 55|15|What%2C you question the existence of Grendel%3F|Jackpine Radical||16:15:58|12/27/2001|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Dec-27-01 AT 04:16 PM (ET)[/font][p]Next I suppose you%27ll be trying to deny the divinity of Thor.|36 69|15|You are all confussed.|Metacrock||22:53:14|12/28/2001|The Egyptian Book of the Dead is also considered an historical document. So by your definition does that mean that the Egyptian Gods also were real%3F Beowulf is also considered an historical document as it cites numerous historical figures places and events%2C but does that mean Grendel existed%3F%0D%0AOh%2C you mean that they contains both good and bad history and that you have to take a reasoned and balanced approach to judging its accuracy%3F %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AA little curly-headed%2C good-for-nothing%2C%0D%0AAnd mischief-making monkey from his birth%3B %0D%0AHis parents ne%27er agreed except in doting%0D%0AUpon the most unquiet imp on earth%3B%0D%0AInstead of quarrelling%2C had they been but both in%0D%0ATheir sense%2C they%27d have sent young master forth%0D%0ATo school%2C or had him soundly whipp%27d at home%2C%0D%0ATo teach him manners for the time to come.%0D%0AByron - Don Juan Canto xxv%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%3E%3EOk look%2C I just discovered this board. I%27m a leftist%2C I%27m a Marxist. I%27m a Trot actually%2C or I used to be. I worked in the Central American movment throughotu the 80s and supported the FSLN and the FMLN. But I don%27t think the cause of the left is served by spouting crackpot theories. I say crack post because I am an historian. I don%27t mean by that that I just like history%2C I mean I am a Ph.D. candidate in history%2C it%27s my profession%2C and I%27ve been a teaching assistant for years. %0D%0A%0D%0ANo valid academic historian takes this BS %28the Christ-myth BS%29 seriously. Wells and Doherty are not historians they are not Bible scholars. The last prof that I TAed for is a big named historian who said%2C when i told him that I argue about this on the net%2C %22why do you waste your time arguing with idiots%3F%22%0D%0A%0D%0AYou see%2C if real historians took that kind of junck seriously%2C we would know next to nothing about the ancient world. Why%3F Because look at the argument. Most of it is argument from the gaps. We don%27t know this or that so therefore there%27s no evidence so we can assume that Jesus didn%27t exist. That does not follow. Now the major reason that sketpics give is the polemical and religious nature of the Gospels. But most of what we know about the ancient world comes from polemical and religious sources. If we assume that Jesus didn%27t exist for those reasons than we have to assume that Julius Cesar didn%27t exist and other major pepole and other major blocks of knowledge. %0D%0A%0D%0ANow some one says that Beowulf would be historical if we can trust sources just because they have historical data in them. This is a silly way to look at history. Of course we have to understand why a text was written. It doesn%27t make a text into an historical document just because it contians some historical data%2C but neither does it make that data mythological. The fact of the matter is Beowuld is partially historical even though its main purpose is mythological. The Gosples are not mythological%2C they stem from a different genre. They are not meant to be history books%2C that%27s true%2C we can think of them more like sermons. But that doesn%27t mean that the material in them is any less historical just because their major purpose was not to be a history text book.%0D%0A%0D%0AOn the matter of Josephus%2C most historians accept the idea that he incorportated a core of information about Jesus. This is enough in itself to domeonstrate that Jesus was at least taken for a real historical person form an early period%2C and minimizes any reason to think otherwise. Moreover%2C the arabic manuscript does indicate that Josephus did talk about Jesus%2C because the Arabs had a version with different emmindations but with the same core of basic information about Jesus. BTW the other passage about James is not the least bit ambiuous. It quite clearly states that he was the brother of Jesus.%0D%0A%0D%0ANow%2C one also needs to realize that many first and second century historians mentioned Jesus%2C but we should also realize that we don%27t have the writtings of very many historians form that period. So it is not big surprise that we don%27t have a great deal of information about Jesus because we don%27t have that much form anyone in that era%2C except Philo and Jospehus.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0Ahere is a list I have on my website%2C it%27s mine%2C I wrote it%2C its from my website and that%27s why its cut and pasted%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A1%29%A0 All of these following historians mention Jesus of Nazareth as a historical figure who existed in the first century CE%2C or they mention Christ. %2A Thallus %28c. 50-75AD%29 %0D%0A%2APhlegon %28First century%29%0D%0A%2A Josephus %28Antiquities of the Jews%2C c.93%29 %0D%0A%2A Letter from Pliny the Younger to Trajan %28c. 110%29%0D%0A%2A Tacitus %28Annals%2C c.115-120%29 %0D%0A%2A Suetonius %28Lives of the Caesars%2C c. 125%29 %0D%0A%2A Galen %28various writings%2C c.150%29 %0D%0A%2A Celsus %28True Discourse%2C c.170%29. %0D%0A%2A Mara Bar Serapion %28pre-200%3F%29 %0D%0A%2A Talmudic References%28 written after 300 CE%2C but some refs probably go back to eyewitnesses%29%0D%0A%2ALucian %28Second century%29 %0D%0A%2ANumenius %28Second cent.%29 %0D%0A%2AGalerius %28Second Cent.%29 %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0ABefore moving on let%27s compare these with first century sources that don%27t mention Jesus in order to see if there is a vast flood of info about the ancient world that doesn%27t speak of him. %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A2%29 First century Sources that don%27t mention Jesus %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%22A final consideration is that we have very little information from first-century sources to begin with. Not much has survived the test of time from A.D. 1 to today. Blaiklock has cataloged the non-Christian writings of the Roman Empire %28other than those of Philo%29 which have survived from the first century and do not mention Jesus. These items are%22%3A %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%2A An amateurish history of Rome by Vellius Paterculus%2C a retired army officer of Tiberius. It was published in 30 A.D.%2C just when Jesus was getting started in His ministry. %0D%0A%2A An inscription that mentions Pilate. %0D%0A%2A Fables written by Phaedrus%2C a Macedonian freedman%2C in the 40s A.D. %0D%0A%2A From the 50s and 60s A.D.%2C Blaiklock tells us%3A %22Bookends set a foot apart on this desk where I write would enclose the works from these significant years.%22 Included are philosophical works and letters by Seneca%3B a poem by his nephew Lucan%3B a book on agriculture by Columella%2C a retired soldier%3B fragments of the novel Satyricon by Gaius Petronius%3B a few lines from a Roman satirist%2C Persius%3B Pliny the Elder%27s Historia Naturalis%3B fragments of a commentary on Cicero by Asconius Pedianus%2C and finally%2C a history of Alexander the Great by Quinus Curtius. %0D%0AOf all these writers%2C only Seneca may have conceivably had reason to refer to Jesus. But considering his personal troubles with Nero%2C it is doubtful that he would have had the interest or the time to do any work on the subject. %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%2A From the 70s and 80s A.D.%2C we have some poems and epigrams by Martial%2C and works by Tacitus %28a minor work on oratory%29 and Josephus %28Against Apion%2C Wars of the Jews%29. None of these would have offered occasion to mention Jesus. %0D%0A%2A From the 90s%2C we have a poetic work by Statius%3B twelve books by Quintillian on oratory%3B Tacitus%27 biography of his father-in-law Agricola%2C and his work on Germany. %5BBlaik.MM%2C 13-16%5D %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%22To this Meier adds %5Bibid.%2C 23%5D that in general%2C knowledge of the vast majority of ancient peoples is %22simply not accessible to us today by historical research and never will be.%22 It is just as was said in his earlier comment on Alexander the Great%3A What we know of most ancient people as individuals could fit on just a few pieces of paper. Thus it is misguided for the skeptic to complain that we know so little about the historical Jesus%2C and have so little recorded about Him in ancient pagan sources. Compared to most ancient people%2C we know quite a lot about Jesus%2C and have quite a lot recorded about Him%21%22 %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0Acome talk it with me.%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fpub18.ezboard.com%2Fbhavetheologywillargue%0D%0A%0D%0ABasically%2C there is no good reason to think that Jesus didn%27t exist. The vast majority of real historians would agree with that statment and would agree that Josephus does talk about him.%0D%0A%0D%0A|36 71|16|This is becoming a broken record|Lithos||05:17:18|12/29/2001|You are repeating arguments that are old and have been disproven.%0D%0A%0D%0ASome facts on 1st Century writers -%0D%0A%0D%0AJosephus%27s comments%0D%0A%0D%0A Paragraph 1 - The infamous reference to Jesus.%0D%0A%0D%0A - First referenced%2C not quoted%2C by Origen apx. 180 CE where he says that Josephus did not believe Jesus was Christ %28an indirect and negative reference. Note%3A it is easy to gather from Josephus%27 strong opinions without having to have name Jesus by name. Josephus did not believe ANY Messiah had arisen.%29. Not quoted by any Church father prior to Eusebius including Irenaeus%2C Justin the Martyr%2C or Clement of Alexandria. There are copies extant which do NOT feature any of the quoted passage with the usual meaning that the original work was amended.%0D%0A - New amended version by Eusebius in 324 CE which is what Professor Tabor is talking about as his baseline to start removing %22obviously forged%22 elements. But even this %22fairly%22 neutral version was never quoted %28see above%29. %0D%0A - Interesting in that no mention is made of the Pauline arch-type Jesus as divinity or the Church of Paul which would have been how %28City of%29 Roman Christians believed at the time of writing. Instead a picture of a Jesus consistent with 2nd Century thought is presented.%0D%0A - For a variety of reasons%2C it is highly unlikely that Josephus would have written anything neutral or positive about the 1st Century Christian sect. These include Josephus%27 own strong opinions about previous Messiah%27s%2C the anti-Empire tendancies of the first Century Christians%2C etc.%0D%0A%0D%0A Paragraph 2 - The reference to James.%0D%0A%0D%0A - The reference is more than likely been amended from James%2C Brother of the Lord to James%2C Brother of Jesus. Brother of the Lord was another title for another real life James %28James the Just%29 who was extant in the 1st Century and NOT affiliated with Jesus. This would be more akin to %22brethren%22 not actual blood brother.%0D%0A%0D%0ATalmudic references%0D%0A%0D%0A - What evidence there is comes from two Jewish writings%2C the Tosefta and the Baraitas. Both of these writings speak of one person who is a source for the name %22Jesus%22. Yeishu ha-Notzri %28Jesus the Nazerene%29 who was stoned %28not hung from a cross%29 to death %28by Jews%2C not Romans%29 during the Passover celebration around 100 BCE. Nazarene to my understanding actually means %22offshoot%22 %28used to represent people of a offshoot Jewish sect%2C and ultimately Christian%29. People from the town of Nazarene are Nazrati %28Nazarethite%29.%0D%0A%0D%0AThallus %0D%0A%0D%0A - No mention of Jesus whatsoever in any of his works. Thallus refers to an eclipse of the sun. Later in 221 CE%2C a Christian writer Sextus Julius Africanus uses this eclipse information to bolster a claim that this was the darkness.%0D%0A%0D%0ASuetonius%0D%0A%0D%0A - Work references a person by the name of Chrestus %28%22the Good%22%2C a common name%29 and not Christus %28Suetonius spoke Greek and would know the difference%29 who was an ACTIVE instigator in Rome of Jews in 55 CE%2C well outside of the timeline and location of Jesus. %0D%0A%0D%0ATacitus%0D%0A%0D%0A - The source is from a version of his Annals which was compiled in the 15th Century. The actual quotation is verbatim from another Christian Apologist who wrote in the 5th Century. Apparently the two works were mixed up at that time. The quotation NEVER appeared as reference to Tacitus until shortly after the publication of the 15th Century volume.%0D%0A%0D%0A %0D%0AAnd people who SHOULD have written about Jesus%2C but didn%27t include%3A%0D%0A%0D%0APhilo Judaeus of Alexandria %2830 BCE - 45 CE%29 whose work on Jewish History is available. He was particularly interested in religious movements and sects%2C yet does NOT mention Jesus.%0D%0A%0D%0AJustus of Tiberius another contemporary Jewish historian. His work while lost was referenced by Photius%2C the Patriarch of Constantinoople %28ca 890 CE%29 who expressed astonishment that NO reference was made to Jesus. %0D%0A%0D%0AOther contemporary people who were recording literature and history%2C yet also failed to mention Jesus%2C include%3A%0D%0A%0D%0APlutarch%2C Apollonius%2C Juvenal%2C Quintilian%2C Seneca%2C Martial%2C Lucanus%2C Pliny the Elder%2C Epictetus%2C and Ptolemy%0D%0A%0D%0AAs for the Second Century works%0D%0A%0D%0APliny the %22Younger%22%0D%0A%0D%0A - Wrote in 112 CE that Christians sang a hymn to Christ as to a god. This is not an eyewitness account to Jesus.%0D%0A%0D%0ALucian%0D%0A %0D%0A - Retelling of a story. Not an eyewitness%0D%0A%0D%0ACelsus%0D%0A%0D%0A - Wrote an attack on Christianity. Because all copies were destroyed by Christians%2C the only reference are those quoted by Origen. However%2C Origen%27s attack on Celsus yields enough information to indicate that Celsus%27 Jesus is Yeishu ben Pandeira %28Jesus Ben Pandera%2C the same character as Yeishu ha-Notzri%2C mentioned above%29 and his source the Sepher Toldoth Jeshu%2C %28which is taken from the sources I mentioned above.%29. Origen wrote his response a Century later %283rd Century%29 in the aptly named %22Contra Celsus%22 %28Against Celsus%29.%0D%0A%0D%0ASide note%3A Adding to that the highly non-corporeal versions of Christ mentioned in the Marchion %28a major figure in the Pauline theology as he is the one who is the first recorded source of the the Epistles%29 and Pauline Gospels %28and please don%27t quote the KJV%2C that version includes many glosses incorporated well after the era we are talking about%29. This Christ is %22God%22%2C not man. Coincedentally this follows the Gnostic Christian belief which was prevalent in the 1st and part of the 2nd Century. Only later in the Second Century did a story about Jesus Christ the %22man%22 start to emerge. %0D%0A%0D%0ATertullian and Justin Martyr%0D%0A%0D%0A - Made claims %28speculations%29 that material relating to Jesus would be found in the libraries of Pontius Pilate and Tiberius. Of course no such material was found. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DA little curly-headed%2C good-for-nothing%2C%0D%0AAnd mischief-making monkey from his birth%3B %0D%0AHis parents ne%27er agreed except in doting%0D%0AUpon the most unquiet imp on earth%3B%0D%0AInstead of quarrelling%2C had they been but both in%0D%0ATheir sense%2C they%27d have sent young master forth%0D%0ATo school%2C or had him soundly whipp%27d at home%2C%0D%0ATo teach him manners for the time to come.%0D%0AByron - Don Juan Canto xxv%0D%0A|69 72|17|I don%27t think so.|Metacrock||00:00:32|12/30/2001|You are repeating arguments that are old and have been disproven.%0D%0ASome facts on 1st Century writers -%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DMeta %3D%3E%5B%2Fb%5D Hardly%21%0D%0A%0D%0AJosephus%27s comments%0D%0A%0D%0AParagraph 1 - The infamous reference to Jesus.%0D%0A%0D%0A- First referenced%2C not quoted%2C by Origen apx. 180 CE where he says that Josephus did not believe Jesus was Christ %28an indirect and negative reference. Note%3A it is easy to gather from Josephus%27 strong opinions without having to have name Jesus by name. Josephus did not believe ANY Messiah had arisen.%29.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DMeta %3D%3E%5B%2Fb%5DTotal nonsequitter. The fact that he referenced it and didn%27t quote it hardly acts as proof that it didn%27t exist. So what%3F Seocndly%2C that Jo didn%27t believe in Messiah is harly a problem. No one claims he did. I have indicated that the quoation has been tweeked. But%2C that doens%27t prove it is totally fabridcated. Why is it that Christ mythers can%27t undertsand that distinction%3F %5Bb%5D%5Bi%5Dhe doesn%27t have to believe in the resurrection to report that Jesus%27 followers believed in it%21%5B%2Fb%5D%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A Not quoted by any Church father prior to Eusebius including Irenaeus%2C Justin the Martyr%2C or Clement of Alexandria. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DMeta %3D%3E%5B%2Fb%5D We don%27t have any ms of it until the middle ages%2C so what%3F That is argument from the gaps.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AThere are copies extant which do NOT feature any of the quoted passage with the usual meaning that the original work was amended.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DMeta %3D%3E%5B%2Fb%5DYou are going to have to document that. I bet you are confussing it with the Arabic ms. Please show when these ms date to%2C and quote exactly what they say.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A- New amended version by Eusebius in 324 CE which is what Professor Tabor is talking about as his baseline to start removing %22obviously forged%22 elements. But even this %22fairly%22 neutral version was never quoted %28see above%29.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DMeta %3D%3E%5B%2Fb%5DDocumentation please%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A %0D%0A- Interesting in that no mention is made of the Pauline arch-type Jesus as divinity or the Church of Paul which would have been how %28City of%29 Roman Christians believed at the time of writing. Instead a picture of a Jesus consistent with 2nd Century thought is presented.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DMeta -%3E%5B%2Fb%5DThere%27s hardly enough there to glean that from the text. I think what he says is more consistant with Jewish Christianity of Plaestine. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A- For a variety of reasons%2C it is highly unlikely that Josephus would have written anything neutral or positive about the 1st Century Christian sect. These include Josephus%27 own strong opinions about previous Messiah%27s%2C the anti-Empire tendancies of the first Century Christians%2C etc.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DMeta %3D%3E%5B%2Fb%5DI don%27t think it is neutral and it baffles me how so may Christ myther%27s always miss the obvious sarcasim implied in %22if it be lawful to call him a man.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AParagraph 2 - The reference to James.%0D%0A%0D%0A- The reference is more than likely been amended from James%2C Brother of the Lord to James%2C Brother of Jesus. Brother of the Lord was another title for another real life James %28James the Just%29 who was extant in the 1st Century and NOT affiliated with Jesus. This would be more akin to %22brethren%22 not actual blood brother.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DMeta %3D%3E%5B%2Fb%5DWhat%3F You think that James the Apostle was called %22James the brother of the Lord%22 and not the borther of the Lord%3F Yea%2C document that please. Also%2C you are just guessing that borhter or Jesus was changed%2C no basis for that in the text.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DI%27ll get back on the rest of it%5B%2Fb%5D|71 73|17|Real historians are not Christ mythers|Metacrock||00:59:00|12/30/2001|Talmudic references- What evidence there is comes from two Jewish writings%2C the Tosefta and the Baraitas. Both of these writings speak of one person who is a source for the name %22Jesus%22. Yeishu ha-Notzri %28Jesus the Nazerene%29 who was stoned %28not hung from a cross%29 to death %28by Jews%2C not Romans%29 during the Passover celebration around 100 BCE. Nazarene to my understanding actually means %22offshoot%22 %28used to represent people of a offshoot Jewish sect%2C and ultimately Christian%29. People from the town of Nazarene are Nazrati %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DMeta %3D%3E%5B%2Fb%5D Talmudic%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AGustav Dalman was probably the greatest Aramaic scholar of his day. His Jesus Christ in the Talmud%2C Midrash%2C and the Zohar%22 was first published in 1894. %0D%0A%0D%0AExtract%3A %5Bi%5D%22Jesus is commonly referred to in the Talmud and in Talmudic literature by the expressions %22Son of Stada %28Satda%29%22%2C and %22Son of Pandera%22 These are so accepted that they appear constantly in the Babylonian Talmud %28cp. the Targum Sheni on Esther VII 9%29 even without the name Jesus. It might seem to be a question as to who it is that is to be understood by these. But in the Jerusalem Talmud %28Avodah Zarah II. 40d%29%2C the full name is given as Yeshu ben Pandera %28for which Shabbath XIV 14d has more briefly%2C Yeshu Pandera%29%3B and in the Tosephta on Hullin II%2C the full name is given as Yeshu ben Pantera and Yeshu ben Pantere. So then Ben Pandera or ben Pantere also bears the name Yeshu. Further%2C the Jesus the Nazarene who is %22hanged on the evening before Passover%22 %28Sanhedrin 43a%29 is on the other hand %28Sanhedrin 67a%29 also called the %22son of Stada %28Satda%29%22. It is evident that in both these places the same person is spoken of. Here these two passages may be considered conclusive%2C since they repeat each other using the similar language%2C and in a section of the text which is chiefly concerned about Jesus%3B and so we see that Jesus was also referred to as Ben Stada%22.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A While these sources are written much latter than the first century %28Sanhedrin from second century to fourth%29 it is generally understood that they draw upon material that is much older%2C some of it perhaps form the first century%2C some even contemporary with Jesus.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A %22The Historicity of Jesus Christ%22 by Wayne Jackson The Christian Courier December%2C 7 1998 http%3A%2F%2Fwww.Christiancourier.com%2Farchives%2Fhistoricty_Jesus.htm%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5D %22Additionally%2C the Jewish Babylonian Talmud ..took note of the Lord%27s existence. Collected into a final form in the fifth century A.D.%2C it is derived from earlier materials%2C some of which originated in the first century. Its testimony to Jesus%27 existence is all the more valuable%2C as it is extremely hostile. It charges that Christ %28Who is called Ben Pandera%29 was born out of wedlock after His mother had been seduced by a Roman soldier named Pandera or Panthera. Respected scholar Bruce Metzger has commented upon this appellation%3A %22The defamatory account of his birth seems to reflect a knowledge of the Christian tradition that Jesus was the son of the virgin Mary%2C the Greek word for virgin%2C parthenos%2C being distorted into the name Pandera%22 %281965%2C p. 76%29. The Talmud also refers to Jesus%27 miracles as %22magic%2C%22 and records that He claimed to be God. It further mentions His execution on the eve of the Passover. Jewish testimony thus supports the New Testament position on the historical existence of Jesus.%22 %5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A While these Talmudic source have no real historical validity in documenting the life of Jesus%2C they do at least demonstrate that no mention is made of the idea that he was merely ficticious. Had there been no Jesus of Nazareth%2C surely his Jewish opponents would have made much of this fact. They were not stupid. They did have living memory. For the Chrsitians to begin talking about this woder worker who lived almost 100 years earlier%2C when no one had ever heard of him before%2C certainly would have brought a reaction to that effect from the Jewish opponents. Instead%2C they assert with boldness that they know all about him%3B they also assume he existed%21 %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DThallus %5B%2Fb%5D- No mention of Jesus whatsoever in any of his works. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AThallus refers to an eclipse of the sun. Later in 221 CE%2C a Christian writer Sextus Julius Africanus uses this eclipse information to bolster a claim that this was the darkness.Suetonius- Work references a person by the name of Chrestus %28%22the Good%22%2C a common name%29 and not Christus %28Suetonius spoke Greek and would know the difference%29 who was an ACTIVE instigator in Rome of Jews in 55 CE%2C well outside of the timeline and location of Jesus. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ATacitus- The source is from a version of his Annals which was compiled in the 15th %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ACentury. The actual quotation is verbatim from another Christian Apologist who wrote in the 5th Century. Apparently the two works were mixed up at that time. The quotation NEVER appeared as reference to Tacitus until shortly after the publication of the 15th Century volume.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DMeta %3D%3E%5B%2Fb%5D Considering that we didn%27t even know Tacitus existed until the middle ages%2C and that we only have a couple of his ms starting with about hte 1100%27s that is not surprising that it would be so late.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AThe passage is generally assumed by historians to be genuine %5Bthough see Cutner%2C Herbert. Jesus%3A God%2C Man or Myth%3F New York%3A Truth Seeker%2C 1950. 111-2%5D%2C. The style is that of Tacitus and the tone is so anti-Christian it cannot be a foregery of Chrstians. %5BT. A.%2C ed. Tacitus. London%3A Routledge%2C 1969. %2C 149%5D Some skeptics may argue that this passage is a forgery because no chruch father quotes form it. But this is easily explianed by it%27s negative anti-Chrsitian nature%2C as well as the fact that Tacitus works were lost to posterity until the 11th century%2C so most chruch fathers may not have known of him. Tacitus has a large fan club among historians and is generally regarded as reliable and knowlegeable. Holding quotes several of them%3A %0D%0A%0D%0A %2A Syme%2C who was regarded as one of the foremost Tacitean scholars%2C says %5BSym.Tac%2C 398%5D %22the prime quality of Cornelius Tacitus is distrust. It was needed if a man were to write about the Caesars.%22 He adds %5Bibid.%2C 281%2C 282%5D that Tacitus %22was no stranger to industrious investigation%22 and his %22diligence was exemplary.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0A%2A Chilver %5BChilv.Tac%2C 24%5D indicates that %22for Tacitus scepticism was inescapable is not to be doubted.%22%0D%0A%0D%0A %2A Martin %5BMart.Tac%2C 211%5D %2C though noting difficulties about discerning Tacitus%27 exact sources%2C says that %22It is clear%2C then%2C that Tacitus read widely and that the idea that he was an uncritical follower of a single source is quite untenable.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%2A Grant %5BGran.Grec%2C 40-3%3B see also Gran.Tac%2C 18%5D %2C while charging Tacitus with bias%2C error%2C and %22unfair selectivity%22 in various areas %28especially associated with the Emperor Tiberius%29%2C nevertheless agrees that Tacitus %22was careful to contrast what had been handed down orally with the literary tradition.%22 Elsewhere he notes that %22There is no doubt that %28Tacitus%29 took a great deal of care in selecting his material.%22 %5Bibid.%2C 20%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A %2A Dudley %5BDud.Tac%2C 29%5D notes that despite problems in discerning what sources Tacitus used%2C %22it may be said with some confidence that the view that Tacitus followed a single authority no longer commands support.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0A%2A Mellor %5BMell.Tac%2C 20%2C 45%5D observes that although he made use of other sources%2C including friends like Pliny%2C Tacitus %22does not slavishly follow%2C as some of his Roman predecessors did%2C the vagaries of his sources.%22 He adds %28ibid.%2C 31-2%29 that%2C %22If research is the consultation and evaluation of sources%2C there can be little doubt that Tacitus engaged in serious research though it is not often apparent in the smooth flow of his narrative.%22 Tacitus %22consulted both obscure and obvious sources%2C%22 and %22distinguishes fact from rumor with a scrupulosity rare in any ancient historian.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0A%2A Benario %5BBenar.Tac%2C 87%5D tells us that Tacitus %22chose judiciously among his sources%2C totally dependent upon none%2C and very often%2C at crucial points%2C ignored the consensus of his predecessors to impose his own viewpoint and his own judgment.%22 %2A Wellesley %5BDor.Tac%2C 65-6%5D remarks that investigation %22very seldom shows %28Tacitus%29 to be false to fact%22 and that archaeology has shown that %22only once or twice is Tacitus found guilty of a small slip.%22 He adds%3A %22When the sources differ and the truth is hard to decipher%2C %28Tacitus%29 takes refuge in ambiguous language or the balance of alternative and sometimes spiteful variants%2C%22 rather than doing original research to determine which option is the truth. We may note that there is no such ambiguous language in the Christus cite. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%2A Finally%2C Momigliano%5BMomig.CFou%2C 111-2%5D %2C while pointing out that Tacitus was of course %22not a researcher in the modern sense%2C%22 nevertheless says that he was %22a writer whose reliability cannot be seriously questioned.%22 He cites only one possible major error by Tacitus%2C but puts it down to him relying on a trusted predecessor rather than official records. %0D%0A%0D%0ASome skeptics may argue that Tacitus got his information from Pliny the younger. They were freinds. If this is the case%2C however%2C it assumes that something is wrong with Pliny%27s infomration. Nevertheless%2C this is does not mean that Tacitus accepted Pliny%27s word uncritically. He is known to have disputed infomration offered by Pliny and even to have thought it absurd.%5BAnnals 15.53 %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DYou%3A%5B%2Fb%5DAnd people who SHOULD have written about Jesus%2C but didn%27t include%3APhilo Judaeus of Alexandria %2830 BCE - 45 CE%29 whose work on Jewish History is available. He was particularly interested in religious movements and sects%2C yet does NOT mention Jesus.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DMeta %3D%3E%5B%2Fb%5DArgument form silence. Marlene Dietrich never stared with Clark Gabel. Both were in Hollywood at the same time and both were big stars. Therefore%2C Dietrich didn%27t exist right%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DYOu%3A%5B%2Fb%5DJustus of Tiberius another contemporary Jewish historian. His work while lost was referenced by Photius%2C the Patriarch of Constantinoople %28ca 890 CE%29 who expressed astonishment that NO reference was made to Jesus. Other contemporary people who were recording literature and history%2C yet also failed to mention Jesus%2C include%3APlutarch%2C Apollonius%2C Juvenal%2C Quintilian%2C Seneca%2C Martial%2C Lucanus%2C Pliny the Elder%2C Epictetus%2C and PtolemyAs for the Second Century worksPliny the %22Younger%22- Wrote in 112 CE that Christians sang a hymn to Christ as to a god. This is not an eyewitness account to Jesus.Lucian%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DMeta %3D%3E%5B%2Fb%5D We have only a hand full of sources from the first century anyway%2C and many of these souces we do not possess in their entrity. It%27s absurd to argue this is evidence that he never existed.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DYou%3A%5B%2Fb%5D- Retelling of a story. Not an eyewitnessCelsus- Wrote an attack on Christianity. Because all copies were destroyed by Christians%2C the only reference are those quoted by Origen. However%2C Origen%27s attack on Celsus yields enough information to indicate that Celsus%27 Jesus is Yeishu ben Pandeira %28Jesus Ben Pandera%2C the same character as Yeishu ha-Notzri%2C mentioned above%29 and his source the Sepher Toldoth Jeshu%2C %28which is taken from the sources I mentioned above.%29.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DMeta %3D%3E%5B%2Fb%5DNo%2C it%27s just your unfounded assetion that they aren%27t the same. As the evidence above indicates Yeshu Ben Panderia was hanged on a tree%2C which is a euphemism for crucifiction %28see Raymond Brown%2C %5Bi%5DDeath of the Messiah%5B%2Fi%5D%29. Mroeover%2C why would Celsus even care about that guy anyway%3F Clearly he thought he was talking about Jesus%2C and why would he care if he didn%27t think Jesus was a real person%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5D%5Bb%5DWhile we are making arguments form silence%2C why is it that not one trace of an argument by the enmies of Christians can be found in which they argue that Jesus didn%27t exist%3F Why did they never think of that when everyone in Jerusalem would know that they had never heard of him%2C never seen him%2C no one they knew had ever seen him%2C no one older had any stories of seeing him and there was no evidence of him%3F%5B%2Fi%5D%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DYou%3A%5B%2Fb%5D Origen wrote his response a Century later %283rd Century%29 in the aptly named %22Contra Celsus%22 %28Against Celsus%29.Side note%3A Adding to that the highly non-corporeal versions of Christ mentioned in the Marchion %28a major figure in the Pauline theology as he is the one who is the first recorded source of the the Epistles%29 and Pauline Gospels %28and please don%27t quote the KJV%2C that version includes many glosses incorporated well after the era we are talking about%29. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DMeta %3D%3E%5B%2Fb%5DWhat Paline Gosples%3F Pauline Gospels%3F You got those%3F I know some scholars that are looking for them%21 You stand to make a real discovery there.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DYOu%3A%5B%2Fb%5DThis Christ is %22God%22%2C not man. Coincedentally this follows the Gnostic Christian belief which was prevalent in the 1st and part of the 2nd Century. Only later in the Second Century did a story about Jesus Christ the %22man%22 start to emerge. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DMeta %3D%3E%5B%2Fb%5D O that is totally absurd%21 Total conjecture and ideolgoical posturing. That%27s that Doherty stuff that no real scholars credits with any kind of veracity. Paul clearly and obviously refurs to Jesus as flesh and blood human being in several passges. Romans 1%3A3 comes to mind. He had a human linage. Real scholars don%27t buy this stuff. None of those I studied with even cared enough to discuss it. %0D%0A%0D%0ATertullian and Justin Martyr- Made claims %28speculations%29 that material relating to Jesus would be found in the libraries of Pontius Pilate and Tiberius. Of course no such material was found. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DMeta %3D%3E%5B%2Fb%5DSo what%3F That%27s just more argument form silence.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhy is it that in all the attacks on the early chruch not one opponent ever claimed that Jesus didn%27t exist%3F%0D%0A%0D%0Aand in all the hundreds of docuements that wer written peusdepigraphally not a one disagrees with the basic idea of Jesus as born in Bethlehem%2C curcified in Jerusalem and the other basic details of the story. It has total history likeness%2C he%27s also from Nazerath%2C his mother is always Mary%2C his side kicks are always Peter%2C Andrew%2C James%2C John. Always crucified under Pilate. There are 15 versions of the Tamuz story. Almost all myths have more than one version%2C but there is only one version of the Jesus story. That has to be because the facts were well enough known that others couldn%27t proliforate.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DMeta %3D%3E%5B%2Fb%5D That still leaves%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%2APhlegon %28First century%29 %0D%0A%2A Josephus %28Antiquities of the Jews%2C c.93%29%0D%0A%2A Letter from Pliny the Younger to Trajan %28c. 110%29 %0D%0A%2A Suetonius %28Lives of the Caesars%2C c. 125%29%0D%0A%2A Galen %28various writings%2C c.150%29%0D%0A%2A Celsus %28True Discourse%2C c.170%29.%0D%0A%2A Mara Bar Serapion %28pre-200%3F%29%0D%0Aeyewitnesses%29%0D%0A%2ALucian %28Second century%29 %0D%0A%2ANumenius %28Second cent.%29%0D%0A%2AGalerius %28Second Cent.%29 %0D%0A %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A|71 75|18|Last note|Lithos||05:57:33|12/30/2001|%5Bblockquote%5D %22Real historians are not Christ mythers%22%5B%2Fblockquote%5D%0D%0AReal Historians don%27t assume then warp facts to fit their assumption%2C they draw conclusions from what is there. The closest I%27ve seen to this is the Rutgers Jesus Seminar http%3A%2F%2Freligion.rutgers.edu%2Fjseminar%2Freaction.html. Personally I am tired of this silly argument. You can believe what you want%2C I will believe what I want. %0D%0A%0D%0AMy beliefs are%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A- Most writings did not start until the very end of the 1st Century by people who were trying to record an oral history%2Ftradition. These people were fairly well removed from events and therefore included a lot of anecdotal evidence.%0D%0A%0D%0A- As a result%2C Jesus is a polyglot of several individuals. But%2C but there was no Jesus in the 4 BCE to 30 CE time period. %0D%0A%0D%0A- Many common sayings were incorrectly attributed to Jesus. Also a lot of Jesus%27 prophecies were added after the fact by the Gospel writers to help bolster their arguments. I also think that many of the Apostles were fictionalized. %0D%0A%0D%0A- In a similar vein%2C many mythological elements were incorporated into the Christian tradition. Either to bolster its appeal or out of pure ignorance. There are just too many similiarities to Mithra%2C Tammuz and Horus. This explains many of the %22miracles%22 and story arch-types. This is supported by Celsus who said that the Christians had borrowed heavily from mythology. %0D%0A%0D%0AYou won%27t change me by your tautology. Several of your comments about my purported sources were humorous. I had to go look up who you meant by Doherty. He is interesting. I will have to read more about him.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut in specific reply%2C the only comment I will make is that below.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bblockquote%5DMeta %3D%3E What Paline Gosples%3F Pauline Gospels%3F You got those%3F I know some scholars that are looking for them%21 You stand to make a real discovery there.%5B%2Fblockquote%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AThe Pauline gospel is a correct term and tells me a lot about your reading. While there is no canonical body of work termed as such%2C it is still a very common term in academic circles and used to refer to the writings and teachings attributed to Paul and his immediate followers %28Clement of Rome%2C Marcion%2C etc.%29. The Gospel of Luke is sometimes also attributed to this body of work though that is a matterr of debate.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd to answer your question about why I think Paul was making things up. See%3A %0D%0A%0D%0AGalatians 1%3A11-12%0D%0A%0D%0ABut I make known to you%2C brethren%2C that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man%2C nor was I taught %5Bit%2C%5D but %5Bit came%5D through the revelation of Jesus Christ.%0D%0A %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DA little curly-headed%2C good-for-nothing%2C%0D%0AAnd mischief-making monkey from his birth%3B %0D%0AHis parents ne%27er agreed except in doting%0D%0AUpon the most unquiet imp on earth%3B%0D%0AInstead of quarrelling%2C had they been but both in%0D%0ATheir sense%2C they%27d have sent young master forth%0D%0ATo school%2C or had him soundly whipp%27d at home%2C%0D%0ATo teach him manners for the time to come.%0D%0AByron - Don Juan Canto xxv%0D%0A|73 77|19|Answer to last note|Metacrock||12:26:03|01/01/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jan-01-02 AT 12:31 PM (ET)[/font][p]Real Historians don%27t assume then warp facts to fit their assumption%2C they draw conclusions from what is there.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DMeta %3D%3E%5B%2Fb%5DSo when are you going to stop doing it%3F It seems to me that the only reason to be a Christ myther is because one dislike Christianity very intensely. If it were anyone else in ancient history no one would think the reasons for doubting his existence are important enough to actually base a theory upon. There are other figures who could be doubted along the same lines and for similar reasons but no one doubts them.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A The closest I%27ve seen to this is the Rutgers Jesus Seminar http%3A%2F%2Freligion.rutgers.edu%2Fjseminar%2Freaction.html. Personally I am tired of this silly argument. You can believe what you want%2C I will believe what I want. %0D%0AMy beliefs are%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A- Most writings did not start until the very end of the 1st Century by people who were trying to record an oral history%2Ftradition. These people were fairly well removed from events and therefore included a lot of anecdotal evidence.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DMeta %3D%3E%5B%2Fb%5D Helmut Koester has shown that there is a pre-marcan redaction that goes back to AD 50%2C just 18 years after the events and contemporary with the early Pauline writings. Paul clearly believed that Jesus was a historical figure and he was writing not so long after the original events and met a couple of the key players in the drama. Would Peter just sit there and wonder why he was put into the narrative without it having any basis in reality and not bother to correct the impression%3F Now you could assume a collusive effort to fabricate a myth%2C in any other context that would be laughed out of the classroom as illuminate chasing%21 Conspiratorial history%21%0D%0A%0D%0A- As a result%2C Jesus is a polyglot of several individuals. But%2C but there was no Jesus in the 4 BCE to 30 CE time period. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DMeta %3D%3E%5B%2Fb%5D Doesn%27t wash. When you read real mythogrophers their accounts of those myths lack any of the corrollations that people like Doherty talk about.%0D%0A%0D%0A- Many common sayings were incorrectly attributed to Jesus. Also a lot of Jesus%27 prophecies were added after the fact by the Gospel writers to help bolster their arguments. I also think that many of the Apostles were fictionalized. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DMeta %3D%3E%5B%2Fb%5DDon%27t confuse redaction with ahistory. Just because it was redacted doesn%27t mean it was made up. It was%2C after all redacted from something%2C and that something is an earlier account.%0D%0A%0D%0A- In a similar vein%2C many mythological elements were incorporated into the Christian tradition. Either to bolster its appeal or out of pure ignorance. There are just too many similarities to Mithra%2C Tammuz and Horus. This explains many of the %22miracles%22 and story arch-types. This is supported by Celsus who said that the Christians had borrowed heavily from mythology. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DMeta %3D%3E%5B%2Fb%5DNo one has ever given me a decent reason to think that a bunch of Palestinian Jews would use pagan myths%2C especially myths form gods not popular in Palestine. Moreover%2C when you read real mythogrophers you see that none of the things claimed are true. Cumont proved that Mirthas borrowed form Christianity%2C and most of the alleged similarities are not there. The Christ Mythers have overblown that position. Real mythology shows that to be the case. Here are my pages on it%2C please read them%3A%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.geocities.com%2Fmetagetics%2FDoxaJesus.html%0D%0A%0D%0AYou have to click on %22Mythological Jesus%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AYou won%27t change me by your tautology. Several of your comments about my purported sources were humorous. I had to go look up who you meant by Doherty. He is interesting. I will have to read more about him.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DMeta %3D%3E%5B%2Fb%5DHe%27s not a scholar in this field.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut in specific reply%2C the only comment I will make is that below.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AMeta %3D%3E What Pauline Gospels%3F Pauline Gospels%3F You got those%3F I know some scholars that are looking for them%21 You stand to make a real discovery there.%0D%0AThe Pauline gospel is a correct term and tells me a lot about your reading. While there is no canonical body of work termed as such%2C it is still a very common term in academic circles and used to refer to the writings and teachings attributed to Paul and his immediate followers %28Clement of Rome%2C Marcion%2C etc.%29. The Gospel of Luke is sometimes also attributed to this body of work though that is a matterr of debate.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DMeta %3D%3E%5B%2Fb%5DLet me tell you something else about my reading. I have a Masters degree in Theology from Perkins school of theology and I%27ve studied this stuff for 20 years. I also studied New Testament Greek and read the NT in Greek. Now let me tell you something about your reading. You have no sense of humar and can%27t spot sarcasm. But when you try to apply these terms in such a correct manner%2C and yet make the basic mistake of following the crack pot theory that no one takes seriously%2C it just makes you look pretentious.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd to answer your question about why I think Paul was making things up. See%3A %0D%0A%0D%0AGalatians 1%3A11-12%0D%0A%0D%0ABut I make known to you%2C brethren%2C that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man%2C nor was I taught but through the revelation of Jesus Christ.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DMeta %3D%3E%5B%2Fb%5DSo%3F%0D%0A|75 78|20|on the mythological stuff|Metacrock||12:45:14|01/01/2002|Here are a couple of things from my websie about these suppossed similarities between mytholgoical figures and Jesus.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DFirst%3ASimilarities vanish when you look at real mythology. %5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AWhen you get out of the Christ myther books and examine what the real myths were actually about%2C they don%27t look that similar.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AMithrism%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AThe Mythic Mysteries are very complex%2C and the only real similarities to Jesus are minute ones.. Most of these alleged similarities are suspect or unimportant. It is often claimed by skeptics on the Internet that %22there is so much similarity%22 but I find very little. Mithra comes from Persia and is part of Zoroastrian myth%2C but this cult was transplanted to Rome near the end of the pre-Chrsitian era. Actually the figure of Mithra is very ancient. He began in the Hindu pantheon and is mentioned in the Vedas. He latter spread to Persia where he took the guise of a sheep protecting deity. But his guise as a shepard was rather minor. He is associated with the Sun as well. Yet most of our evidence about his cult %28which apparently didn%27t exist in the Hindu or Persian forms%29 comes from Post-Pauline times. Mythic rituals were ment to bring about the salvation and transformation of initiates. In that sense it could be seen as similar to Christianity%2C but it was a religion and all religions aim at ultimate transformation. He%27s a total mythical figure he meets the sun who kneels before him%2C he slays a cosmic bull%2C nothing is real or human%2C no sayings%2C no teachings. %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 1%29 no Virginal Conception Mithra was born of a rock%2C so unless the rock was a virgin rock%2C no virginal conception for him. %28Marvin W. Meyer%2C ed. The Ancient Mysteries %3Aa Sourcebook. San Francisco%3A Harper%2C 1987%2C%2C p. 201%29. %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 2%29 No crucifixion or resurrection. There no story of Mithras death and no references to resurrection. The only similarity about him in this relation is that his shedding of the Bull%27s blood is said by H.G. Wells %28Out Line of World History %29 to be the prototype for Jesus sacrifice on the cross. But in reality the only similarity here is blood%2C and it wasn%27t even his own. It may even be borrowing form Christianity that made the shedding of blood important in the religion. %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 3%29 No Savior%2C no baptism%2C no Christmas Moreover%2C one of the major sources comes from the second century AD and is found in inscriptions on a temple%2C %22and you saved us after having shed the eternal blood.%22 This sounds Christian%2C but being second century after Christ it could well be borrowed from Christianity %28 Meyer%2C p 206%29. %5BThis source%2C Meyer%2C is used by Kane as well%2C but it says nothing to back up his claims%2C and as will be seen latter%2C Meyer disparages the notion of conscious borrowing%5D %28More about this ceremony on Page II%29 %0D%0A%A0 %22Mithra was the Persian god whose worship became popular among Roman soldiers %28his cult was restricted to men%29 and was to prove a rival to Christianity in the late Roman Empire. Early Zoroastrian texts%2C such as the Mithra Yasht%2C cannot serve as the basis of a mystery of Mithra inasmuch as they present a god who watches over cattle and the sanctity of contracts. Later Mithraic evidence in the west is primarily iconographic%3B there are no long coherent texts%22.%28Edwin Yamauchi%2C %22Easter%3A %22Myth%2C Hallucination%2C or History%2C%22 Leadership University%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AD. Osiris %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0AOsiris was of the most influential families of gods in ancient Egypt. Perhaps in the distant past they were based upon some sort of flesh and blood family%2C but we know nothing of that. Our knowledge of Orisis is that of a purely mythological family. Isis was the mother goddess%2C Osiris is the brother and husband of Isis. He possesses generative powers connected to nature%2C not fertility per se%2C but to the land so dependent upon water from the Nile for production of crops. Whereas most fertility deities are related to sexual fertility as well as crops Osiris seems to be more connected to crops themselves. %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 1%29 no virginal conception is connected to Osiris%2C they live in a family. They are the product of intercourse of the gods. %0D%0A%0D%0AMeyer records that Isis and Horus were worshiped as mother and child. Like the Virgin Mary and the baby Jesus%2C Isis was %22Queen of heaven%22 pictured with infant seated on her lap. %28159%29. While that may constitute a pagan influence upon latter Christianity%2C there was no cult of Mother and Child in the Gospels. Osiris%27 birth stories come from the Hellenistic period. The Greek Poet Plutarch wrote on Isis and Osiris%2C in which Osiris is conceived and brought forth from the union between Rhea and Kronos%2C but there is another tradition that Osiris sprang form the sun. %28Meyer%2C p.161%29. These figures are purely mythical so even the technical virginity above does not apply to them. If being the product of virginal conception was at all important to the Osiris story%2C or even was ever mentioned in connection with him%2C one would think that these stories would respect that view. There is no claim that I can find of his %27vigilant conception.%27 That is%2C unless one counts the sun as a virgin. %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 2%29 No crucifixion Osirirs is killed by Set%2C his evil brother%2C who than sank his coffin in the Nile%2C %22thus Horus as the mythological counterpart of the living Pharaoh%2C succeeded his dead father and assures the triumph of continuity and order in Egyptian life. Isis meanwhile along with Thoth%2C Horus%2C Anubis%2C and Nephthyts employs her magical powers to mummify Osiris and thereby to restore him from death to life.%22 %28Meyer%2C p.157%29 So we are not dealing with the restoration of actual flesh and blood life%2C but a mummified state which is merely in a waiting mode%2C for a future resurrection%2C and we don%27t even know if this will be life as a restored flesh and blood person%2C or life as a mummy. Moreover%2C this is a purely mythological scene not something played out in history with historical figures. It seems more likely that it is the prototype and perhaps justification for preserving bodies as mummies. What%27s more%2C Osiris was not crucified. One encounters Osiris in the land of the dead waiting to be taken to that afterlife%2C %28Ibid.%29 no eyewitnesses see him restored to normal huan life. %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 3%29 References to baptism far fetched%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AThe language with which scholars sometimes speak of these myths%2C either purposefully or not%2C suggests a lot more than does the actual story. Osiris was drowned in a box in the Nile which is spoken of in such terms as%3A %22The dead body of Osiris floated in the Nile and he returned to life%2C this being accomplished by a baptism in the waters of the Nile.%22 %28Joseph Klausner%2C From Jesus to Paul %28New York%3A Macmillan%2C 1943%29%2C 104.%29Wagner suggests that comparing the coffin of Osiris floating on the Nile to baptism is like comparing the sinking to Atlantis to Baptism. %28Gunter Wagner%2C Pauline Baptism and the Pagan Mysteries %28Edinburgh%3A Oliver and Boyd%2C 1967%29%2C 260ff.%29 %0D%0A%0D%0A%A04%29 No resurrection %0D%0A%A0 Easter%3A Myth%2C Hallucination or History by Edwin M. Yamauchi Leadership U. http%3A%2F%2Fwww. leaderu.com%2Feverystudent%2FEaster%2Farticles%2Fyama.html Updated 22 March 1997 %28prof. of History at Miami University%2C Osford Ohio%29 %0D%0AThis leaves us with the figure of Osiris as the only god for whom there is clear and early evidence of a %22resurrection.%22 Our most complete version of the myth of his death and dismemberment by Seth and his twofold resuscitation by Isis is to be found in Plutarch%2C who wrote in the second century A.D. %28cf. J. Gwyn Griffiths%2C Plutarch%27s De Iside et Osiride%2C 1970%29. His account seems to accord with statements made in the early Egyptian texts. After the New Kingdom %28from 1570 B.C.. on%29 even ordinary men aspired to identification with Osiris as one who had triumphed over death%22. %22But it is a cardinal misconception to equate the Egyptian view of the afterlife with the %22resurrection%22 of Hebrew-Christian traditions. In order to achieve immortality the Egyptian had to fulfill three conditions%3A %281%29 His body had to be preserved%2C hence mummification. %282%29 Nourishment had to be provided either by the actual offering of daily bread and beer%2C or by the magical depiction of food on the walls of the tomb. %283%29 Magical spells had to be interred with the dead-Pyramid Texts in the Old Kingdom%2C Coffin Texts in the Middle Kingdom%2C and the Book of the Dead in the New Kingdom. Moreover%2C the Egyptian did not rise from the dead%3B separate entities of his personality such as his Ba and his Ka continued to hover about his body%22. %22Nor is Osiris%2C who is always portrayed in a mummified form%2C an inspiration for the resurrected Christ. As Roland de Vaux has observed%3A %0D%0A%A0 What is meant of Osiris being %22raised to life%22%3F Simply that%2C thanks to the ministrations of Isis%2C he is able to lead a life beyond the tomb which is an almost perfect replica of earthly existence. But he will never again come among the living and will reign only over the dead.... This revived god is in reality a %22mummy%22 god %5BThe Bible and the Ancient Near East%2C 1971%2C p. 236%5D%22. %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0%0D%0AE. Tammuz %0D%0A In Babylonian Mythology was the consort of the goddess Ishtor. He was also the god who died and rose again continually. This was another crop cycle relationship based upon nature. %28Herbert Spencer Robinson%2C Myths and Legends of all Nations%2C New York%3A Bantum Books%2C 1950%2C 13-16%29. This is purely mythological. There is no historical figure that Tammuz is based upon. He did not die and rise as a flesh and blood human%2C but only as a mythical figure. He healed no real people%2C only the mythical goddess Ishtar. Since his dying and rising is crop related we can suspect that he is not even faintly based upon a real figure. This was a copy of nature for fertility purposes. He was consort to Ishtar who was goddess of %27love%27 in the crass sense%2C related to fertility. %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 1%29 No Virginal Birth Thre are no stories of Tammuz as the product of a virgin birth. I suspect that documentation comes from Achyra S. %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 2%29 No Crucifixion He was not crucified but killed by a wild bore %28Ibid.%29. %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 3%29 No Resurrection %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 Easter%3A Myth%2C Hallucination or History by Edwin M. Yamauchi Leadership u. http%3A%2F%2Fwww. leaderu.com%2Feverystudent%2FEaster%2Farticles%2Fyama.html Updated 22 March 1997%0D%0A%0D%0A %28prof. of History at Miami University%2C Osford Ohio%29%22In the case of the Mesopotamian Tammuz %28Sumerian Dumuzi%29%2C his alleged resurrection by the goddess Inanna-Ishtar had been assumed even though the end of both the Sumerian and the Akkadian texts of the myth of %22The Descent of Inanna %28Ishtar%29%22 had not been preserved. Professor S. N. Kramer in 1960 published a new poem%2C %22The Death of Dumuzi%2C%22 that proves conclusively that instead of rescuing Dumuzi from the Underworld%2C Inanna sent him there as her substitute %28cf. my article%2C %22Tammuz and the Bible%2C%22 Journal of Biblical Literature%2C LXXXIV %5B1965%5D%2C 283-90%29. A line in a fragmentary and obscure text is the only positive evidence that after being sent to the Underworld Dumuzi may have had his sister take his place for half the year %22%28cf. S. N. Kramer%2C Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research%2C No. 183 %5B1966%5D%2C 31%29. %22Tammuz was identified by later writers with the Phoenician Adonis%2C the beautiful youth beloved of Aphrodite. According to Jerome%2C Hadrian desecrated the cave in Bethlehem associated with Jesus%27 birth by consecrating it with a shrine of Tammuz-Adonis. Although his cult spread from Byblos to the GrecoRoman world%2C the worship of Adonis was never important and was restricted to women. P. Lambrechts has shown that there is no trace of a resurrection in the early texts or pictorial representations of Adonis%3B the four texts that speak of his resurrection are quite late%2C dating from the second to the fourth centuries A.D%22. %28%22La %27resurrection%27 d%27Adonis%2C%22 in Melanges Isidore Levy%2C 1955%2C pp. 207-40%29. %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0%0D%0AHe was not a savior figure%2C he did not have a cult of salvation seekers founding a mystery religion after him%2C he was not a savior but a symbol of the crop cycles%2C the male counterpart to the Greek Procepheny. %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DStrong evidence argues against influence on early Christianity%3A%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AA. Mithrism%0D%0A%A0%0D%0A%0D%0A1%29 All our sources Post Date Christianity.%0D%0A%0D%0A%A0%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AEaster%3A Myth%2C Hallucination or History%0D%0Aby Edwin M. Yamauchi%0D%0ALeadership u. http%3A%2F%2Fwww. leaderu.com%2Feverystudent%2Feaster%2Farticles%2Fyama.html%0D%0AUpdated 22 March 1997%0D%0A%28prof. of History at Miami University%2C Oxford Ohio%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Those who seek to adduce Mithra as a prototype of the risen Christ ignore the late date for the expansion of Mithraism to the west %28cf. M. J. Vermaseren%2C Mithras%2C The Secret God%2C 1963%2C p. 76%29. The only dated Mithraic inscriptions from the pre-Christian period are the texts of Antiochus I of Commagene %2869-34 B.C.%29 in eastern Asia Minor. After that there is one text possibly from the first century A.D.%2C from Cappadocia%2C one from Phrygia dated to A.D. 77-78%2C and one from Rome dated to Trajan%27s reign %28A.D. 98-117%29. All other dated Mithraic inscriptions and monuments belong to the second century %28after A.D. 140%29%2C the third%2C and the fourth century A.D%22. %28M. J. Vermaseren%2C Corpus Inscription et Monumentorum Religions Mithriacae%2C 1956%29.%0D%0A%A0%0D%0A%A0%0D%0A%A0%0D%0A%0D%0A2%29 Mithrism Emerged in the west only after Jesus%27 day.%0D%0A%0D%0AMithrism could not have become an influence upon the origins of the first century%2C for the simple reason that Mithrism did not emerge from its pastoral setting in rural Persia until after the close of the New Testament canon. %28Franz Cumont%2C The Mysteries of Mithra %28Chicago%3A Open Court%2C 1903%29%2C 87ff.%29 No one can be sure that the meaning of the meals and the ablutions are the same between Christianity and Mirthrism. Just because the two had them is no indication that they come to the same thing. These are entirely superficial and circumstantial arguments. %28Nash%2C Christian Research Journal winter 94%2C p.8%29%0D%0A%0D%0Aa%29 Roman Soldiers Spread the cult.%0D%0A%A0%0D%0A%0D%0ARoman soldiers probably encountered Mithrism first as part of Zoroastrians when they while on duty in Peria. The Cult spread through the Roman legion%2C was most popular in the West%2C and ha little chance to to spread through or influence upon Palestine. It%27s presence in Palestine was mainly confined to the Romans who were there to oppress the Jews. Kane tries to imply that these mystery cults were all idigidous to the Palestinian area%2C that they grew up alongside Judaism%2C and that the adherents to these religions all traded ideas as they happily ate together and practiced good neighborhsip.%0D%0A%A0%0D%0Ab%29 Mithric Roman Soldiers Influenced by Christians in Palestine%0D%0A%0D%0A%A0%0D%0A%A0%0D%0ABut Mithrism was confined to the Roman Legion primarily%2C those who were stationed in Palestine to subdue the Jewish Revolt of A.D. 66-70. In fact strong evidence indicates that in this way Christianity influenced Mithrism. First%2C because Romans stationed in the West were sent on short tours of duty to fight the Parthians in the East%2C and to put down the Jewish revolt. This is where they would have encountered a Christianity whose major texts were already written%2C and whose major story %28that of the life of Christ%29 was already formed.%0D%0A%0D%0A%A0%0D%0AThere is no real evidence for a Persian Cult of Mirthras. The cultic and mystery aspect did not exist until after the Roman period%2C second century to fourth. This means that any similarities to Christianity probably come from Christiantiy as the Soldiers learned of it during their tours in Palestine. The Great historian of religions%2C Franz Cumont was able to prove that the earliest datable evidence for the cult came from the Military Garrison at Carnuntum%2C on the Danube River %28moern Hungary%29. The largest Cache of Mithric artifacts comes form the area between the Danube and Ostia in Italy. %28Franz Cumont%2C The Mysteries of Mithra %28Chicago%3A Open Court%2C 1903%29%2C 87ff.%29 %0D%0A%A0%0D%0A%0D%0A%A0%0D%0A%A0%0D%0A%3E3%29 Mithrism was not Christianity%27s Major Rival%0D%0A%0D%0A%A0%0D%0AMithraism %0D%0AThe Ecole Initiative%3A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fcedar.evansville.edu%2F%7Eecoleweb%2Farticles%2Fmithraism.html%0D%0A%0D%0A%A0%0D%0AMithraism had a wide following from the middle of the second century to the late fourth century CE%2C but the common belief that Mithraism was the prime competitor of Christianity%2C promulgated by Ernst Renan %28Renan 1882 579%29%2C is blatantly false. Mithraism was at a serious disadvantage right from the start because it allowed only male initiates. What is more%2C Mithraism was%2C as mentioned above%2C only one of several cults imported from the eastern empire that enjoyed a large membership in Rome and elsewhere. The major competitor to Christianity was thus not Mithraism but the combined group of imported cults and official Roman cults subsumed under the rubric %22paganism.%22 Finally%2C part of Renan%27s claim rested on an equally common%2C but almost equally mistaken%2C belief that Mithraism was officially accepted because it had Roman emperors among its adherents %28Nero%2C Commodus%2C Septimius Severus%2C Caracalla%2C and the Tetrarchs are most commonly cited%29. Close examination of the evidence for the participation of emperors reveals that some comes from literary sources of dubious quality and that the rest is rather circumstantial. The cult of Magna Mater%2C the first imported cult to arrive in Rome %28204 BCE%29 was the only one ever officially recognized as a Roman cult. The others%2C including Mithraism%2C were never officially accepted%2C and some%2C particularly the Egyptian cult of Isis%2C were periodically outlawed and their adherents persecuted. %0D%0A%A0%0D%0A%0D%0AB. Osiris%0D%0A%A0%0D%0A1%29 Replaced with Serapis Before Time of Christ%3C%2FBLOCKQUOTE%3E%0D%0A%0D%0A%A0%0D%0A%3EOsiris really belongs more properly to the cult of Isis%2C he was her consort. It originated in Egypt and was not a mystery religion until after 300 BC %2C after Petolemy I%2C who introduced major changes. Osiris was replaced with Serapis to harmonize Greek and Egyptian cultures. Thus Osiris was not even part of the mystery cult%2C and thus has no influence upon the %22saving%22 aspects of the cult. %0D%0A%A0%0D%0A2%29 Immortality aspects minimal in Osiris time%0D%0A%A0%0D%0AThe Cult moved to Rome where it was at first rejected%2C but finally was allowed into the city between 37 and 41. Only after the next two centuries did it become a rival of Christianity. Its eventual popularity came from its elaborate ritual and hope of immortality%2C although this was a latter development which post dates Christian origins and does not include Osiris. During the Osiris phase the immortality aspects were very minimal.%0D%0A%A0%0D%0A3%29 Early phase of cult no savior%2C in period of clash with Christianity%2C no Osiris%21%0D%0A%A0%0D%0AThus%2C during the early part of the cult they had no great savior figure and no salvation aspects to speak of%2C and in the phase where they competed with Christianity %28two or more centuries after the Gospels%29 they had no dying or rising savior figure. %28Ronald Nash%2C %22Was The New Testament Influenced by Pagan Religions%3F%22 the Christian Research Journal%2C Winter 19994%2C p 8 %29%0D%0A|77 79|19|The so called Jesus Seminar|Metacrock||12:53:29|01/01/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jan-01-02 AT 12:54 PM (ET)[/font][p]%5Bb%5Dyour link to the Jesus Seminar%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AThose guys are not considered that hot by real scholars. None of them were famous before the media hype%2C and none of them are that respected in real theological circles. See Luke Timothy Johnson%27s book %5Bb%5D%5Bi%5DThe Real Jesus.%5B%2Fi%5D%5B%2Fb%5D He gives a good lambasting of this group of pretenders who are so popular and so sillfull at manipulating the media%2C but they are %5Bb%5D%5Bi%5Dnot%5B%2Fi%5D%5B%2Fb%5D the big hot stuff in real scholarly cirlces.%0D%0A%0D%0AI am not a fundie. I am not saying that because I%27m a fundamentalist. I went to one of the most liberal seminaries in the country and knew Bill Farmer who is a major textual critic and a lot more respected than most of the Jesus Seminarians.%5Bfont color%3Dred%5D%5Bb%5D%5Bi%5DJesus Seminar guys are not that respected even among liberal scholars.%5B%2Fb%5D%5B%2Fi%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ASecondly%2C if you agree that they are really hot stuff%2C than you should accept what I say about Koester%27s pre-marcon redaction dating the passion narrative to AD 50 %5Bfont color%3Dred%5D%5Bb%5D%5Bi%5Dbecause Crosson agrees with him%5B%2Fb%5D%5B%2Fi%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DBTW you need to show which JS memebers actually are Christ mythers and what they believe. Because that doens%27t mean that any of them except the full blown version with Jesus being ficticious%2C and certainly most of them do not accept the notion that Jesus was just made up out of whole cloth.%5B%2Fb%5D|75 33|11|olleh|arctiksounds||17:11:12|12/26/2001|%22Here%2C he seems to be placing Jesus in a fairly high place%2C since he is identifying James as his brother%2C as if %22the brother of Jesus%22 were enough identification. And yet he never explains who Jesus is. Why is that%3F%22%0D%0A%0D%0AThe emphasis is not on Jesus or James it is on Ananus%2C the high priest. If this were an interpolation%2C it%27s certainly not one I%27d expect. You are also saying that Josephus should have known that the followers of Jesus would turn into a major religion. Why would Josephus want to say much of anything about a small sect or cult%3F What would make Josephus %28a jew%29 want to write more about Jesus than this%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m not saying there wasn%27t any interpoltations. It is black and white%2C either%2For mentality to say that if there is one interpolation then they all are. And that goes for thinking that if Josephus said anything nice about him then it must be an interpoltaion. The words in capital are most likely interpoltations. The other words are probably Josephus%27s.%0D%0A%0D%0ANow there was about this time Jesus%2C a wise man IF IT BE LAWFUL TO CALL HIM A MAN%2C for he was a doer of wonders%2C A TEACHER OF SUCH MEN AS RECEIVE THE TRUTH WITH PLEASURE. He drew many after him BOTH OF THE JEWS AND THE GENTILES. HE WAS THE CHRIST. When Pilate%2C at the suggestion of the principal men among us%2C had condemned him to the cross%2C those that loved him at the first did not forsake him%2C FOR HE APPEARED TO THEM ALIVE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY%2C AS THE DIVINE PROPHETS HAD FORETOLD THESE AND THEN THOUSAND OTHER WONDERFUL THINGS ABOUT HIM%2C and the tribe of Christians%2C so named from him%2C are not extinct at this day%22 %28Antiquities 18%3A63-64%29. %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 %5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DThe working class and the %0D%0Aemploying class have nothing in %0D%0Acommon. There can be no peace so %0D%0Along as hunger and want are found %0D%0Aamong millions of the working %0D%0Apeople and the few%2C who make up %0D%0Athe employing class%2C have all the %0D%0Agood things of life. %0D%0A%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0 %0D%0ABetween these two classes a %0D%0Astruggle must go on until the workers %0D%0Aof the world organize as a class%2C take %0D%0Apossession of the means of %0D%0Aproduction%2C abolish the wage %0D%0Asystem%2C and live in harmony with the %0D%0AEarth. www.IWW.org%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|26 34|12|Out of place|Lithos||18:02:47|12/26/2001|The comments you are citing have been proven to have been added much later by another author who had their own agenda.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DA little curly-headed%2C good-for-nothing%2C%0D%0AAnd mischief-making monkey from his birth%3B %0D%0AHis parents ne%27er agreed except in doting%0D%0AUpon the most unquiet imp on earth%3B%0D%0AInstead of quarrelling%2C had they been but both in%0D%0ATheir sense%2C they%27d have sent young master forth%0D%0ATo school%2C or had him soundly whipp%27d at home%2C%0D%0ATo teach him manners for the time to come.%0D%0AByron - Don Juan Canto xxv|33 35|13|and |arctiksounds||18:06:33|12/26/2001|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Dec-26-01 AT 06:08 PM (ET)[/font][p]I%27m not disagreeing with that. But the fact is that historians dissect it and figure out and agree what their best educated guess of what Josephus said is. I told you what they think is added %28most likely christians%29 is.%0D%0A%0D%0AJesus historical existence does not rest all on josephus. Scholars use the NT as well. The dissect the Nt to figure out what is mythical or literal or whatever. This is not a black and white issue.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DThe working class and the %0D%0Aemploying class have nothing in %0D%0Acommon. There can be no peace so %0D%0Along as hunger and want are found %0D%0Aamong millions of the working %0D%0Apeople and the few%2C who make up %0D%0Athe employing class%2C have all the %0D%0Agood things of life. %0D%0A%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0 %0D%0ABetween these two classes a %0D%0Astruggle must go on until the workers %0D%0Aof the world organize as a class%2C take %0D%0Apossession of the means of %0D%0Aproduction%2C abolish the wage %0D%0Asystem%2C and live in harmony with the %0D%0AEarth. www.IWW.org%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|34 38|14|Debate is good|Lithos||18:38:58|12/26/2001|There is not one scrap of evidence Jesus existed. Again for the reasons I cited in post %2332.%0D%0A%0D%0AAll recorded documentation is either passing along oral tradition well after the fact%2C or has been heavily edited later by people who were using it to prove their point. %28Circular argument - See here where it is written%2C Jesus exists. Oh%2C Jesus exists%2C let%27s write it down here.%29. Tacitus%2C Suetonius%2C Josephus%2C the Talmud%2C etc. all suffer similar problems. %0D%0A%0D%0AIt took several hundreds of years for a canonical version of the NT to emerge. It is fairly accepted that NONE of the attributed authors of the NT wrote a single page%2C each section having numerous anonymous composers who added and subtracted sections as the theology was debated. %0D%0A%0D%0AAs for Josephus%2C the sections you quoted are generally considered to have been added about the time of Constantine in the 4th Century.%0D%0A%0D%0AAs for usage%2C about the only historians who utilize the NT are biblical scholars who are trying to trace the early development of the Christian church. To them the issue of Jesus%27 existence is irrelevent to their more over-riding concerns with the development of the NT corpus and the numerous debates which shaped its character. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DA little curly-headed%2C good-for-nothing%2C%0D%0AAnd mischief-making monkey from his birth%3B %0D%0AHis parents ne%27er agreed except in doting%0D%0AUpon the most unquiet imp on earth%3B%0D%0AInstead of quarrelling%2C had they been but both in%0D%0ATheir sense%2C they%27d have sent young master forth%0D%0ATo school%2C or had him soundly whipp%27d at home%2C%0D%0ATo teach him manners for the time to come.%0D%0AByron - Don Juan Canto xxv%0D%0A|35 40|14|So%2C then|lazarus||18:58:19|12/26/2001|All you have is the New Testament and Josephus%3F And Josephus is proven to have been heavily edited in this case%3F What%27s the point%2C then%2C since the New Testament is also not anywhere close to being an historical document%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|35 42|15|h|arctiksounds||21:15:23|12/26/2001|Is the bible from ancient history%3F It an historical document. This does not mean it%27s a history book.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DThe working class and the %0D%0Aemploying class have nothing in %0D%0Acommon. There can be no peace so %0D%0Along as hunger and want are found %0D%0Aamong millions of the working %0D%0Apeople and the few%2C who make up %0D%0Athe employing class%2C have all the %0D%0Agood things of life. %0D%0A%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0 %0D%0ABetween these two classes a %0D%0Astruggle must go on until the workers %0D%0Aof the world organize as a class%2C take %0D%0Apossession of the means of %0D%0Aproduction%2C abolish the wage %0D%0Asystem%2C and live in harmony with the %0D%0AEarth. www.IWW.org%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|40 43|16|In that case|lazarus||21:17:38|12/26/2001|You can%27t use it to prove something is historically accurate%2C can you%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|42 44|17|yes you can|arctiksounds||21:23:50|12/26/2001|%0D%0AThis exactly what historians do. They try to figure out what %22really%22 happened. They dissect it. They don%27t think in black and white by saying the whole thing must be thrown out because there are miracles in it. Historians don%27t %22prove%22 anything you go by the best educated guess that can be agreed upon. This is not math.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DThe working class and the %0D%0Aemploying class have nothing in %0D%0Acommon. There can be no peace so %0D%0Along as hunger and want are found %0D%0Aamong millions of the working %0D%0Apeople and the few%2C who make up %0D%0Athe employing class%2C have all the %0D%0Agood things of life. %0D%0A%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0 %0D%0ABetween these two classes a %0D%0Astruggle must go on until the workers %0D%0Aof the world organize as a class%2C take %0D%0Apossession of the means of %0D%0Aproduction%2C abolish the wage %0D%0Asystem%2C and live in harmony with the %0D%0AEarth. www.IWW.org%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|43 49|18|And people who|lazarus||03:11:16|12/27/2001|Go around trying to find archeological sites or claim certain things happened or people existed based on the Bible are generally considered flakes. %0D%0A%0D%0AThere is more proof of the existence of the Greek gods by this standard%2C you know.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|44 27|10|Some issues|Lithos||01:30:51|12/26/2001|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Dec-26-01 AT 01:57 AM (ET)[/font][p]%5Bfont size%3D%221%22 color%3D%22%23FF0000%22%5DLAST EDITED ON Dec-26-01 AT 01%3A51 AM %28ET%29%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AThere are quite a few issues with this kind of argument. %28See%3A http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.aol.com%2Fbbu84%2Fbiblicalstupidity%2Farguments.htm%23Historical for an online start%29%0D%0A%0D%0A1%29 All of the comments you cited were written by people who never personally interacted with %22Jesus%22. %0D%0A%0D%0AFor example%2C Suetonius who referred to the Emperor of Rome expelling a sect of Jews who were causing problems at the instigation of a man named %22Chrestus%22 in AD 55. Of Course Chrestus means %22The Good%22 in Greek%2C Christus%2C means %22The Messiah%22. Suetonius would of course have known the difference. Besides%2C he implied that Chrestus was alive and in Rome in 55 AD. Something which is contrary to the tradition.%0D%0A%0D%0A2%29 Most of the direct writings have changed or been heavily tainted by people who have inserted their opinion. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe quotation you cited by Josephus%2C a passage sometimes called the %22Testimonium Flavianum%22%2C did not start to appear in copies until the 4th Century. And even then was edited further. %0D%0A%0D%0ATacitus%27 quote has a similar problem. He makes only ONE mention to Christ in his annals written in AD 117. Many%2C many writers%2C cited Tacitus%27 body of works%2C yet for some reason you have to wait until the late 15th Century to find someone who quoted this ONE passage. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe Talmud%3F The commentary written into the Talmud concerning Jesus %28and later excised%29 was included in a period ranging from 200-500 AD and was mostly an attempt to explain the growth of Christianity. %0D%0A%0D%0A3%29 The belief that if I quote something that did happen%2C then all of what I wrote is correct. %0D%0A%0D%0ATacitus%27 comments concerning Nero and the early Christians were highly suspect. For instance what few Christians there were by the mid 60 AD time frame would have been few in number and because they still held very true to Mosaic Laws would have been virtually indistinguishable from Jews. %0D%0A%0D%0A4%29 No one until Modern timed doubted the historicity of Jesus. Therefore%2C it must be a wrong statement to make.%0D%0A%0D%0AHave you ever heard of Aristotle and his 1500%2B year lock on the growth of Sciences in the Western World%3F It was considered heretical to disagree with many of the %22scientific%22 tenets put down by him. %0D%0A%0D%0AAnd if you doubt the reaction to differing religious beliefs%2C think Spanish Inquisition. So only in the Modern Age would it be remotely possible to hold such a contrarian belief.%0D%0A%0D%0A5%29 How can there be Christianity without Christ%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AThis is a circular argument%2C a tautology that philosophers and logicians cringe at. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DA little curly-headed%2C good-for-nothing%2C%0D%0AAnd mischief-making monkey from his birth%3B %0D%0AHis parents ne%27er agreed except in doting%0D%0AUpon the most unquiet imp on earth%3B%0D%0AInstead of quarrelling%2C had they been but both in%0D%0ATheir sense%2C they%27d have sent young master forth%0D%0ATo school%2C or had him soundly whipp%27d at home%2C%0D%0ATo teach him manners for the time to come.%0D%0AByron - Don Juan Canto xxv%5B%2Ffont%5D|24 70|9|Josephus accepted|Metacrock||23:00:05|12/28/2001|Here are my historical Jesus pages%2C my website Doxa.%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.geocities.com%2Fmeta_crock%2Fother%2FHist_Jesus.html%0D%0A%0D%0APlease read them.%0D%0A%0D%0AMost historians accept the validity of a core of the passage in Josephus and take that as assurence of Jesus basic historicity.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AThis is from %22The Jewish Roman World of Jesus%22 by a Dr. James Tabor who is a highly respected scholar.%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.geocities.com%2Fmetagetics%2FHistoricalJesus1.html%0D%0AJosephus%27Testimony to Jesus Dr. James D. Tabor %28Testimonium Flavianum%29 Josephus%2C Antiquities 18. 63-64 %A0http%3A%2F%2Fwww.uncc.edu%2Fjdtabor%2Fsaw.html %22The words in ALL CAPS are likely interpolations added by Christian copyists over the centuries in an attempt to make Josephus support faith in Jesus as the Christ. We have only three Greek manuscripts of this section of Josephus%2C all from the 11th century. These phrases%2C added rather clumsily%2C appear to be rather obvious additions even to the modern reader in English. Once restored to its more original reading Josephus offers us a most fascinating reference to Jesus. Indeed%2C it is the earliest reference to Jesus outside the New Testament%2C and its rather matter of fact%2C neutral reporting%2C makes it all the more valuable to the historian. It is worth noting that in his earlier work%2C The Jewish War%2C written shortly after the revolt under the auspices of the Emperor Vespasian%2C he mentioned neither Jesus%2C nor John the Baptist%2C nor James%2C while in the Antiquities%2C written in the early 90s C.E.%2C he mentions all three. For an excellent discussion of this text see John Meier%2C A Marginal Jew%3A Rethinking the Historical Jesus %22%28Doubleday%2C 1991%29%2C Vol I%2C pp. 57-88. Now there was about this time Jesus%2C a wise man IF IT BE LAWFUL TO CALL HIM A MAN%2C for he was a doer of wonders%2C A TEACHER OF SUCH MEN AS RECEIVE THE TRUTH WITH PLEASURE. He drew many after him BOTH OF THE JEWS AND THE GENTILES. HE WAS THE CHRIST. When Pilate%2C at the suggestion of the principal men among us%2C had condemned him to the cross%2C those that loved him at the first did not forsake him%2C FOR HE APPEARED TO THEM ALIVE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY%2C AS THE DIVINE PROPHETS HAD FORETOLD THESE AND THEN THOUSAND OTHER WONDERFUL THINGS ABOUT HIM%2C and the tribe of Christians%2C so named from him%2C are not extinct at this day%22 %28Antiquities 18%3A63-64%29. %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%0D%0ATabor%27s Version of Josephus%27 account without the emmendations. %22Now there was about this time Jesus%2C a wise man %5B...%2C%5D for he was a doer of wonders%5B....%5D When Pilate%2C at the suggestion of the principal men among us%2C had condemned him to the cross%2C those that loved him at the first did not forsake him%2C%5B ...%2C%5D and the tribe of Christians%2C so named from him%2C are not extinct at this day%22 %28Antiquities 18%3A63-64%29.%0D%0A%A0%3C%2FBLOCKQUOTE%3E%0D%0A%0D%0ATabor%3A %22Professor Shlomo Pines found a different version of Josephus testimony in an Arabic version of the tenth century. It has obviously not been interpolated in the same way as the Christian version circulating in the West%3A%22 %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 %22At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus%2C and his conduct was good%2C and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon their loyalty to him. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion%2C and that he was alive. Accordingly they believed that he was the Messiah%2C concerning whom the Prophets have recounted wonders.%22 %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 %3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D Of course this version seems to be emmended in other ways to suit Arab biases. It has no mention of his ressurection claims. they omitt the phrase %22the most notable men among us%2C%22 but it cannot be charged wtih Chrsitian Bias. I think that the phrase %22if it be lawful to call him a man%22 is merely tounge in cheek sarcasim. With all the different versions%2C here is my attempt to put the passage right%3A %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 Now there was about this time Jesus%2C a wise man IF IT BE LAWFUL TO CALL HIM A MAN%2C for he was %5Bcalimed to be%5D THE CHRIST. When Pilate%2C at the suggestion of the principal men among us%2C had condemned him to the cross%2C those that loved him at the first did not forsake him%2C...%2C and the tribe of Christians%2C so named from him%2C are not extinct at this day%22 %28Antiquities 18%3A63-64%29. %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 %0D%0A%A0 %A0%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D James D. Tabor is a Professor in the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte where he has taught since 1989. He previously held positions at the University of Notre Dame %281979-85%29 and the College of William and Mary %281985-89%29. His Ph.D. is from the University of Chicago in the area of Christian Origins and ancient Judaism with a specialty in apocalyptic systems of thought%2C including the Dead Sea Scrolls%2C Jesus and Paul%2C and related ancient Mediterranean religious movements. %3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%0D%0A%A0 |21 68|8|He was important but didn%27t exist%3F|Metacrock||22:33:46|12/28/2001|He didn%27t exist%2C but he was important%3F Come on now%21 man you guys argue like Republicans. The cause of the left is not served by bad arguments form the gaps.|17 13|3|Wouldn%27t it be something|kskiska||01:13:11|12/24/2001|if it turned out that Jesus looked a lot like Yasser Arafat%3F How would the Fundies react%3F They%27d have to take down all those blonde%2C blue-eyed Jeffrey Hunter portraits.|5 18|4|That was the point of my earlier post.|tsstranger||11:03:09|12/24/2001|I was just pointing out that the Jesus of biblical myth was a brown%2C very dark person%2C a person of the times and the region. You are the only one who pick up on it.%0D%0AThe rest got started on a theological argument.%0D%0AThe FACT is this%3A There is no physical evidence that the guy ever existed%2C other than the writings in the bible. Religious beliefs are not bound by fact%2C but by FAITH. You have to have FAITH that the stories are true.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DAmerican POW%27s %28Prisoners of Dubya%29 unite.%5B%2Ffont%5D|13 19|3|He is arisen%21|carrowsboy||12:56:13|12/24/2001|I have found Jesus%21%0D%0A%0D%0AHe is an illegal working as a gardener for my friend in SoCal.|5 22|3|Heh..funny how people avoid that...|FireHeart||02:53:59|12/25/2001|Yes%2C he would have been. Funny how the RR avoid that logic.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22This%2C too%2C shall pass%22%5B%2Ffont%5D|5 2|1|May I suggest...|silverweb||20:50:06|12/23/2001|... that each of us print this excellent article and mail it to the White House%3F The more copies his staff has to tally%2C the better the chance that he may actually read it -- and even think about it.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3Athink%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5D%22It is as much my responsibility not to cooperate with evil as it is to cooperate with good.%22 %0D%0A%7EMahatma Gandhi %0D%0A|0 3|2|correction|unblock||21:12:33|12/23/2001|%3Csnip%3E%0D%0A%3E%3E%3E The more copies his staff has to tally%2C the better the chance that he may actually read it %0D%0A%3Csnip%3E%0D%0A%0D%0Asurely you meant %22... the better the chance that he may actually have it read to him%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%3Abounce%3A|2 4|3|Good point.|silverweb||21:24:46|12/23/2001|%3AD %5Bb%5D%5Bi%5DVery%5B%2Fb%5D%5B%2Fi%5D good point%21%0D%0A%0D%0A%3Atoast%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5D%22It is as much my responsibility not to cooperate with evil as it is to cooperate with good.%22 %0D%0A%7EMahatma Gandhi |3 6|1|WWJD%3F|KG||22:18:28|12/23/2001|yo%2C prez moron%2C try this Matt 5%3A 38-44|0 16|1|Gag. Barf.|Gussie||02:32:45|12/24/2001|WWJD%3F%3F He%27d probably sacrifice an animal at the Temple in Jerusalem.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22Do you want this war to end on a note of triumph or disaster%3F%22%0D%0A%22Either way%2C man. Just so it swings%21%22%0D%0AStan Freeberg%27s United States of America%5B%2Ffont%5D|0 28|2|What is that supposed to mean%3F|DrGonzoLives||11:07:30|12/26/2001|%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%0D%0A%22You can%27t have something for nothing%0D%0AYou can%27t have freedom for free%22 %0D%0A- Rush%2C %22Something For Nothing%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%22But glittering prizes and endless compromises%0D%0AShatter the illusion of integrity%22 %0D%0A- Rush%2C %22Limelight%22%5B%2Ffont%5D|16 57|3|Nu - so what do you think it means%3F|Gussie||17:41:57|12/27/2001|Jesus was a Jew who lived at the time of animal sacrifice.%0D%0A%3Asmoke%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22Do you want this war to end on a note of triumph or disaster%3F%22%0D%0A%22Either way%2C man. Just so it swings%21%22%0D%0AStan Freeberg%27s United States of America%5B%2Ffont%5D|28 58|4|What do I know%2C but...|Gussie||17:52:33|12/27/2001|something I find interesting is the comparison of ancient texts to see where they overlap. There are a number of ancient stories about a great flood. The stories differ in cause and effect but the fact of the flood remains. So%2C this could be evidence that there was a great flood.%0D%0A%0D%0AI don%27t know about the New Testament but much of the Hebrew Bible was probably written long after the fact to justify and promote the actions of current rulers. Example - you conquer a piece of land and then make up a nice story about the history of said property claiming it was yours for 500 years already. Time passes and nobody remembers what the hell happened so the story stands as history. %0D%0A%0D%0AI think some of the Bible IS historical but the history%2C mythology%2C legends%2C poetry%2C legal stuff%2C rants%2C political assertions were cut and pasted together into the resultant mess.|57 59|4|I thought they had stopped it by then|DrGonzoLives||18:52:16|12/27/2001|I%27m probably wrong. And you are 100%25 correct about the Bible - some good stuff in there%2C but you have to shift through the bullshit to get to it. I wonder what religion would be like if the messages had not been twisted so much in the thirst for power...%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%0D%0A%22You can%27t have something for nothing%0D%0AYou can%27t have freedom for free%22 %0D%0A- Rush%2C %22Something For Nothing%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%22But glittering prizes and endless compromises%0D%0AShatter the illusion of integrity%22 %0D%0A- Rush%2C %22Limelight%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%22No his mind is not for rent%0D%0ATo any god or government%0D%0AAlways hopeful yet discontent%0D%0AHe knows changes aren%27t permanent.%22%0D%0A-Rush%2C %22Tom Sawyer%22%5B%2Ffont%5D|57 20|1|Probably buy some silly-ass charm bracelet...|warren pease||18:47:12|12/24/2001|... with the letters WWJD on it%2C after first making sure it was tax deductible as a necessity for religious observance%2C then checking with GQ and Vogue to make sure it was still cool to wear such things.%0D%0A%0D%0AHe%27d hold a news conference to announce the purchase%2C then donate it to the National Archives after making sure Southebys appraised it for 55%2C000 times the original purchase price%2C thereby parlaying a %2420 investment into a %24110%2C000 tax credit.%0D%0A%0D%0AThen he%27d call Ken Lay and thank him for the financial advice.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0Awp|0 23|1|Thank you for this link|Maeve||08:37:19|12/25/2001|The article is well-written and thoughtful--qualities sadly lacking in the current administration. And it takes seriously the religious teachings that are merely given lip-service. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22008000%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bcenter%5DDia idir sinn agus an t-olc.--God be between us and the evil.%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|0 25|1|More like W.W.D.D.|Lithos||00:31:01|12/26/2001|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Dec-26-01 AT 00:31 AM (ET)[/font][p]What Would Daddy Do%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DA little curly-headed%2C good-for-nothing%2C%0D%0AAnd mischief-making monkey from his birth%3B %0D%0AHis parents ne%27er agreed except in doting%0D%0AUpon the most unquiet imp on earth%3B%0D%0AInstead of quarrelling%2C had they been but both in%0D%0ATheir sense%2C they%27d have sent young master forth%0D%0ATo school%2C or had him soundly whipp%27d at home%2C%0D%0ATo teach him manners for the time to come.%0D%0AByron - Don Juan Canto xxv%0D%0A|0 30|1|What would Jackpine do%3F|Jackpine Radical||15:18:10|12/26/2001|About what%3F Just ask%2C I%27ll be glad to tellya. %3B-%29|0 41|2|I find some of the|newyawker99||19:50:51|12/26/2001|posts here slightly offensive. If you dont believe Jesus exists you have that right to do so....please dont make insulting comments about him for there are some stupid Christians%2C myself included%2C who do believe he did exist and continues to exist.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhen you insult a person%27s religion%2C I believe you insult the person themselves. We are not all right wing fundamentalists.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%3Akick%3A %3Akick%3A %3Akick%3A %3Akick%3A|30 45|3|Religion is always a tricky subject|Lithos||21:57:50|12/26/2001|When dealing with religion it is almost a matter of certainty that someone is bound to be offended. However%2C the same is said to be true for politics %3B%29%0D%0A%0D%0AI find it particularly insulting to my intelligence the use of pseudo-history as a means to justify one%27s faith. Part of why I find it offensive is that the natural extension of this type of %22rewriting the facts to fit faith%22 also is part of the debate concerning Evolution vs. Creationism. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe funny part is%2C I am not an atheist%2C though I am closer to being a Buddhist than not. To me there are many different dimensions to religion. These include rituals %28mysticism%2C spirituality%29%2C practices %28ethics%2C doctrines%29%2C communities %28institutions%2C social body%2C heritage%29 and literature %28writings%2C history%29. The sad thing is we all assign different weights to each component and explains why there is such a culturual diversity between and inside the world%27s religions. I assign a lot more weight to day to day living practices than into the rituals and community aspect. Most everyone else probably does it differently.%0D%0A%0D%0AHowever in the end%2C it will almost certainly remain an issue of faith whether there was or wasn%27t an historical person known as Jesus. It is however a fact that at this time%2C there is not one shred of concrete evidence capable of supporting the historical existence. It is also a fact that there has been a lot of blood%2C sweat and tears spilled doing good %28and evil%29 in the name of Jesus%2C but an article of faith to believe this was not in vain.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DA little curly-headed%2C good-for-nothing%2C%0D%0AAnd mischief-making monkey from his birth%3B %0D%0AHis parents ne%27er agreed except in doting%0D%0AUpon the most unquiet imp on earth%3B%0D%0AInstead of quarrelling%2C had they been but both in%0D%0ATheir sense%2C they%27d have sent young master forth%0D%0ATo school%2C or had him soundly whipp%27d at home%2C%0D%0ATo teach him manners for the time to come.%0D%0AByron - Don Juan Canto xxv%0D%0A%0D%0A|41 46|4|uhhm|arctiksounds||22:13:15|12/26/2001|%22I find it particularly insulting to my intelligence the use of pseudo-history as a means to justify one%27s faith.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ll assume you are talking about me since I%27m the one who said that. I%27m not trying to justify any faith of mine. I%27m talking about history. And mainstream historians don%27t take this stuff seriously. If this offends your faith of Jesus non-existence as an historical person I can%27t really do much about that.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22However in the end%2C it will almost certainly remain an issue of faith whether there was or wasn%27t an historical person known as Jesus. It is however a fact that at this time%2C there is not one shred of concrete evidence capable of supporting the historical existence.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AI suggest you write a book and make some money. It is not a matter of faith of Jesus existence. I notoce though that it is Jesus that you emphasize as non-existant. What are the many other people in our history books that you think did not exist. There should be many with this criteria of yours.%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DThe working class and the %0D%0Aemploying class have nothing in %0D%0Acommon. There can be no peace so %0D%0Along as hunger and want are found %0D%0Aamong millions of the working %0D%0Apeople and the few%2C who make up %0D%0Athe employing class%2C have all the %0D%0Agood things of life. %0D%0A%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0 %0D%0ABetween these two classes a %0D%0Astruggle must go on until the workers %0D%0Aof the world organize as a class%2C take %0D%0Apossession of the means of %0D%0Aproduction%2C abolish the wage %0D%0Asystem%2C and live in harmony with the %0D%0AEarth. www.IWW.org%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|45 50|5|Not really|Lithos||03:51:45|12/27/2001|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Dec-27-01 AT 03:53 AM (ET)[/font][p]%5Bblockquote%5DI%27ll assume you are talking about me since I%27m the one who said that. I%27m not trying to justify any faith of mine. I%27m talking about history. And mainstream historians don%27t take this stuff seriously. If this offends your faith of Jesus non-existence as an historical person I can%27t really do much about that.%5B%2Fblockquote%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AOnly partly. %0D%0A%0D%0ABut as you insist on talking about history%2C I too am talking about history. But to refute your arguments%2C most mainstream biblical historians do actually take this stuff quite seriously. Serious enough to publish books which are detailed bibliographies on the subject. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bblockquote%5DI suggest you write a book and make some money. It is not a matter of faith of Jesus existence. I notoce though that it is Jesus that you emphasize as non-existant. What are the many other people in our history books that you think did not exist. There should be many with this criteria of yours.%5B%2Fblockquote%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AWhich point%3F The denial of existence of Jesus the person or Jesus the tradition%3F The first I claim has no historical basis that %5Bb%5Dcan be proven%5B%2Fb%5D%2C a statement of the existence of a man named Jesus from apx. BCE 4 to apx. CE 33 has to be taken purely as a matter of faith. The specific evidence is so weak justified and the similarities to other traditions so strong that you can make such wildly different claims that Jesus is%3A %0D%0A%0D%0A - A person who lived in this time period.%0D%0A%0D%0A - The Son of God through the Holy Ghost. %0D%0A%0D%0Aor something else%2C maybe even%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A - Yeishu ben Pandeira%2FYeishu ha-Notzri %28Jesus the Nazarene%29%2C a Messianic Jew stoned to death during Passover apx. 100 B.C.E.. He had five disciples%2C two of which were named Mattai %28Matthew%29 and Todah %28Thaddeus%29.%0D%0A%0D%0A - One %28or all%29 of three %22Messiahs%22 crucified by the Romans%2C Yehuda of Galilee %286 B.C.E.%29%2C Theudas %2844 C.E.%29 and Benjamin the Egyptian %2860 C.E.%29. Several of the stories of these men match segments of the life of Jesus. %0D%0A%0D%0A - Some aspect of a pagan Sun God. There are numerous similarities between Jesus and the intertwined mythologies of Horus%2FAttis%2FTammuz%2FMithra. These include%3A virgin birth%2C birth on Dec 25th%2FJan 6th %28nails both dates celebrated for Christmas%29%2C the celebration of resurrection at vernal equinox %28Attis%29%2C the last supper %28Horus%27 father was betrayed by Set%29%2C manger birth and announcement by three wisemen %28Horus%29%2C rebirth%2Freincarnation %28Horus%29. I won%27t get into the many similarities between the rituals espoused by Mithraism and Christianity.%0D%0A%0D%0A - Krishna. Shares the same Indo-European root as Christ %28sun%29. Or would you prefer the Chaldean sun-god%2C Chris%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A - An amalgam of many Essenes who were generally regarded as healers. %0D%0A%0D%0A - The mystic and spiritual Christ %28not Jesus%29 of the early Christian Gnostics. %28See Irenaeus%29.%0D%0A%0D%0A - A fiction invented through an amalgam of many oral traditions and deliberate adoption of local customs to smooth adoption of the faith. %28If you can%27t beat them%2C join them.%29%0D%0A%0D%0AThe second point of Jesus as tradition is easily proven%2C but that is just the body of work%2C doctrine and deeds done in the name of Jesus%2FChrist up to and including today. Even the actions of Shrub continue to build on this.%0D%0A%0D%0AAgain%2C quite a few books have been written which discuss the rather long standing debate about the historical nature of Jesus. A small set is found at%3A%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.truthbeknown.com%2Fbiblio%2Freligion.htm%0D%0A%0D%0ALest you think this is a new debate%2C then I would suggest that you review the history of the early Christian movement %282nd Century%29 called %22The Gnostics%22. They basically denied the existence of Jesus as an historical figure as they felt that God could never take a human form. In a modern sense%2C Rev. Taylor started things off with is comments about the origins of the Gospels in the 1820%27s %28The Diegesis%29. Doane continued on in the 1880%27s when he commented on the parallels between the Bible and the older myths being discovered through archaeology and other research. There was a lot of debate at the turn of the 20th century. Or if you choose%2C you could always take the Jewish tradition who is still waiting for the coming of their Messiah.%0D%0A%0D%0AAs for making money%2C there is not much to be made writing these kinds of books. It would require a lot of time to learn how to properly read and understand the primary source material%2C time I don%27t care to invest. Also there is also not much money to be had for writing academic books. %0D%0A%0D%0AAnd no%2C I will not expand the debate any further. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DReligion is regarded by the common people as true%2C by the wise as false%2C and by the rulers as useful. Seneca.%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A|46 53|6|very very good|lazarus||04:31:41|12/27/2001|exceptional post%2C nice research.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|50 54|7|Thanks|Lithos||05:15:22|12/27/2001|Several of the grammatical mistakes are making me cringe a bit though.%0D%0A%0D%0AI need to remember to type these long replies using a real text editor %28with spell checker%29 then paste into the message composition box.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DA little curly-headed%2C good-for-nothing%2C%0D%0AAnd mischief-making monkey from his birth%3B %0D%0AHis parents ne%27er agreed except in doting%0D%0AUpon the most unquiet imp on earth%3B%0D%0AInstead of quarrelling%2C had they been but both in%0D%0ATheir sense%2C they%27d have sent young master forth%0D%0ATo school%2C or had him soundly whipp%27d at home%2C%0D%0ATo teach him manners for the time to come.%0D%0AByron - Don Juan Canto xxv%0D%0A%0D%0A|53 56|8|that%27s why you can edit|lazarus||16:51:24|12/27/2001|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Dec-27-01 AT 04:52 PM (ET)[/font][p]your posts. Look in the lower left hand corner of the post%2C for the edit button.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhoops%2C it%27s the lower right hand corner. See%3F We all do it. %3Ahi%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|54 60|9|I think it was too late.|Lithos||18:53:03|12/27/2001|I noticed the grammatical errors more than an hour later. One hour following the original submission seems to be the window for edits.%0D%0A%0D%0AOh well... %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DA little curly-headed%2C good-for-nothing%2C%0D%0AAnd mischief-making monkey from his birth%3B %0D%0AHis parents ne%27er agreed except in doting%0D%0AUpon the most unquiet imp on earth%3B%0D%0AInstead of quarrelling%2C had they been but both in%0D%0ATheir sense%2C they%27d have sent young master forth%0D%0ATo school%2C or had him soundly whipp%27d at home%2C%0D%0ATo teach him manners for the time to come.%0D%0AByron - Don Juan Canto xxv%0D%0A|56 52|5|Heck%2C I%27ll jump in here|lazarus||04:27:13|12/27/2001|%5Bi%5DWhat are the many other people in our history books that you think did not exist. There should be many with this criteria of yours.%0D%0A%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0AThe disciples. Most of the people in the Old Testament. Odysseus. King Arthur. Sir Lancelot. Paul Bunyon. %0D%0A%0D%0AWant some more%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|46 61|6|well|arctiksounds||19:46:27|12/27/2001|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Dec-27-01 AT 08:12 PM (ET)[/font][p]%5Bfont size%3D%221%22 color%3D%22%23FF0000%22%5DLAST EDITED ON Dec-27-01 AT 08%3A09%A0PM %28ET%29%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0ACan you guys answer me why just about ALL historians except Jesus historical existence%3F This does not mean you have to be a Christian. But I%27d like to know why you think they do. %28and they do%29. And also I can hardly be called a Christian in the case I%27m called one just because I accept his historical existence.%0D%0A%0D%0AThese historians are atheists%2C agnostics%2C and also theists who accept his historical existence. Do you guys think socrates and hannibal existed%2C they have less evidence than Jesus%3F here is a link to a an article called %22refuting the Jesus myth%22 http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bede.org.uk%2Fjesusmyth.htm %2C Although this guy is a Christian %28not fundy%29 his resources are contemporary and accepted by mainstream scholars. I have respect for him%2C he is intellectually honest. He%27s got a funny part where he uses the same arguments against Jesus historical existence on Hannibal historical existence. %0D%0A%0D%0AHere is an atheist site with atheists who accept Jesus existence.http%3A%2F%2Fforum.cygnus-study.com%2F .Take your arguments over their%2C they%27d enjoy this. %0D%0A%0D%0AAnd for the record I%27m in no way trying to convert anyone to Christianity or believe in Jesus as God%27s son. You can believe he didn%27t exist%2C that%27s fine. But to say that Historians don%27t accept jesus existence and that Josephus is comparable to Nostradamus is intellectually dishonest. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DThe working class and the %0D%0Aemploying class have nothing in %0D%0Acommon. There can be no peace so %0D%0Along as hunger and want are found %0D%0Aamong millions of the working %0D%0Apeople and the few%2C who make up %0D%0Athe employing class%2C have all the %0D%0Agood things of life. %0D%0A%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0 %0D%0ABetween these two classes a %0D%0Astruggle must go on until the workers %0D%0Aof the world organize as a class%2C take %0D%0Apossession of the means of %0D%0Aproduction%2C abolish the wage %0D%0Asystem%2C and live in harmony with the %0D%0AEarth. www.IWW.org%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|52 62|7|Well|lazarus||01:47:50|12/28/2001|You still haven%27t justified your claim that just about ALL historians accept his existence as fact. They don%27t. It%27s that simple. When you can show us that they do%2C we%27ll have something to discuss.%0D%0A%0D%0AAtheists who believe in Jesus%3F Fine. I know of a group called Jews for Jesus. Doesn%27t help any either.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|61 65|8|i think|arctiksounds||16:13:59|12/28/2001|%22You still haven%27t justified your claim that just about ALL historians accept his existence as fact. They don%27t. It%27s that simple. When you can show us that they do%2C we%27ll have something to discuss.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AAll you have to do is go to the book store or university and you would know that historians accept his existence. Tell me the major scholars who don%27t. I showed you the main person who popularized the Jesus as myth scenario. Who by the way is not even a NT scholar.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Atheists who believe in Jesus%3F%22%0D%0A%0D%0AThis again is where you are not understanding what I%27m talking about. There is no %22belief%22 in jesus needed. The book I gave link to is Robin Lane Fox an atheist %28or at least agnostic%29 who accepts that their was an historical existence of a 1st century spritual leader AKA Jesus. This is not about belief.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DThe working class and the %0D%0Aemploying class have nothing in %0D%0Acommon. There can be no peace so %0D%0Along as hunger and want are found %0D%0Aamong millions of the working %0D%0Apeople and the few%2C who make up %0D%0Athe employing class%2C have all the %0D%0Agood things of life. %0D%0A%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0%A0 %0D%0ABetween these two classes a %0D%0Astruggle must go on until the workers %0D%0Aof the world organize as a class%2C take %0D%0Apossession of the means of %0D%0Aproduction%2C abolish the wage %0D%0Asystem%2C and live in harmony with the %0D%0AEarth. www.IWW.org%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|62 66|9|extraordinary claims|lazarus||18:06:52|12/28/2001|required extraordinary proof.%0D%0A%0D%0ALast time I was in the bookstore%2C I found about an equal amount of books concerning Jesus%27 historical existance. Again%2C you said almost ALL. I%27d like something to back that up.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|65 67|8|I heard something else|Lithos||18:36:57|12/28/2001|No%2C what was said%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bblockquote%5DHere is an atheist site with atheists who accept Jesus existence.http%3A%2F%2Fforum.cygnus-study.com%2F .Take your arguments over their%2C they%27d enjoy this.%5B%2Fblockquote%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AWhich to me gives the implication that if you don%27t believe in Jesus %28historical figure or orthodoxy%29 then you are an atheist.%0D%0A%0D%0ADoes that mean all my Jewish%2C Buddhist and Hindi friends are atheists for not believing in either version of Jesus%3F Going to be major news to them.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DA little curly-headed%2C good-for-nothing%2C%0D%0AAnd mischief-making monkey from his birth%3B %0D%0AHis parents ne%27er agreed except in doting%0D%0AUpon the most unquiet imp on earth%3B%0D%0AInstead of quarrelling%2C had they been but both in%0D%0ATheir sense%2C they%27d have sent young master forth%0D%0ATo school%2C or had him soundly whipp%27d at home%2C%0D%0ATo teach him manners for the time to come.%0D%0AByron - Don Juan Canto xxv%0D%0A|62 63|7|Good old Bede|Lithos||05:12:40|12/28/2001|The site you passed %28www.bede.org.uk%29 is chock full of major historical inaccuracies. But then again what should you expect from a site who chooses to use the name of Bede%2C one of the most wildly inconsistent chroniclers of the Anglo-Saxon time period. %0D%0A%0D%0AAnd as a side note%2C Bede%27s %22The Ecclesiastical History of the English People%22%2C suffers from many of the same problems of the Bible. They include the inclusion of oral tradition as fact%2C the inclusion of unsubstantiated third party writings as fact%2C the use of 2-300 year %22hindsight%22 to alter facts to make them more presentable%2C the censorship of of material found inconvenient%2C the imperfect copying which led to several major %22lineages%22 or versions of the manuscript%2C this latter point coupled with the destruction of the original and secondary material left only those corrupted and imperfectly preserved copies from 400%2B years later to derive an original.%0D%0A%0D%0ASome points of error on the website.%0D%0A%5Bul%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bli%5DAgain%2C the Antiquities quotes from Josephus which have been proven to be forgeries added significantly later %28time of Constantine%29 by Christians trying to create a supportive history. This includes Origen among others. %28See%3A http%3A%2F%2Fwww.concentric.net%2F%7EMullerb%2Fappe.shtml%29%5B%2Fli%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bli%5DThe casual usage of an %22English%22 translation with NONE of the accompanying material to discuss how this translation came to be%2C who translated it%2C where the original source material was %28there are several lineages of Origen%27s works%29%2C discussion of the issues surrounding these lineages%2C etc.%5B%2Fli%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bli%5DI love the quotations from the Pauline Epistles which offer the least amount of information concerning Jesus the person. I particularly loved the author%27s creative use of the KJV version which is almost useless in this kind of debate. It tells me he is not a serious student. Remember my earlier comment about needing to go back to the earlier source material%3F The KJV bible does NOT qualify%2C he needs to go back to the NT Greek which the Epistles were written in. %0D%0A%0D%0AThere should be a lot more study about the history%2Fthought behind the Epistles before trying to take them so literally. Hint%2C they weren%27t written by Paul. %5B%2Fli%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bul%5D%0D%0A%5Bli%5DOf the handful deemed %22authentic%22 in that they were written by a single source%2C too much of the original tone%2C phrasing and philosophy implied a Greek upbringing - Paul was Jewish%2C not Greek.%5B%2Fli%5D. %0D%0A%5Bli%5DThey were not letters%2C rather open statements%2C treatises as you will%2C for people to consider. %5B%2Fli%5D%0D%0A%5Bli%5DNo citation was given for any of them prior to Marcion %28180 CE%29. Unusual in that at the time of Justin Martyr %28150 CE%29%2C the Gospels were the only sacred books written by the Church. You would think a body of work written by an Apostle would be considered immediately canonical. %5B%2Fli%5D%0D%0A%5Bli%5DAll suffered revision in the 2nd through 4th Centuries%2C a catholicizing gloss. %5B%2Fli%5D%0D%0A%5Bli%5DMany disagree significantly with the Gospels %28written in the 2nd Century%29 which are the source of much of the biographical information on Jesus. %5B%2Fli%5D%0D%0A%5B%2Ful%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bli%5DI love how he discounts significant gaps such as the %22Gnostics%22 with a casual wave of the hand. Of course he has to discount without proof%2C they counter his theory. The %22Gnostics%22 were a primary influence on early Christian beliefs.%5B%2Fli%5D%0D%0A%5B%2Ful%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd as for your comments about Hannibal%2C there is a lot more proof Hannibal existed than Jesus %284 BCE to 30 CE%29.%0D%0A%0D%0AA couple of MAJOR differences%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bul%5D%0D%0A%5Bli%5DUnlike the ahistorical Jesus%2C Hannibal%27s life was written by his peers%2C people who met him and knew him in his lifetime. This includes historians%2C companions%2C diplomats%2C lay people%2C etc. All of the people you would have expected to write about Hannibal did write about Hannibal.%5B%2Fli%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bli%5DAll of the other major actors are also similarly well recorded. This includes Publius Scipio%2C Paullus%2C Varro%2C Fabious Maximus %28of Fabian Strategy fame%29%2C Hasdrubal Barca %28Hannibal%27s brother%29%2Cetc. %5B%2Fli%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bli%5DPhysical artifacts of Hannibal created during his lifetime %22DO%22 exist including coinage%2C murals and busts.%0D%0A%5B%2Fli%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bblockquote%5DAnd for the record I%27m in no way trying to convert anyone to Christianity or believe in Jesus as God%27s son. You can believe he didn%27t exist%2C that%27s fine. But to say that Historians don%27t accept jesus existence and that Josephus is comparable to Nostradamus is intellectually dishonest.%5B%2Fblockquote%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ve not said Josephus is like Nostradamus. What Josephus wrote is one thing%2C knowing other people added to his work to justify their own ends is another.%0D%0A%0D%0AAs for myself%2C again%2C I have made it a major point to separate the issue of the Historicity of Jesus from the Tradition%2FOrthodoxy of Jesus. The former is a matter of historical evidence%2C of which I claim there is none. The second is purely a matter of personal faith. %0D%0A%0D%0AAnd I promised once to not expand the debate. I am sure many people are growing bored with this thread and avoiding it for its lack of relevency to this country%27s politics. The level of debate is well beyond that of most Right Wingers%2FFreepers. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DA little curly-headed%2C good-for-nothing%2C%0D%0AAnd mischief-making monkey from his birth%3B %0D%0AHis parents ne%27er agreed except in doting%0D%0AUpon the most unquiet imp on earth%3B%0D%0AInstead of quarrelling%2C had they been but both in%0D%0ATheir sense%2C they%27d have sent young master forth%0D%0ATo school%2C or had him soundly whipp%27d at home%2C%0D%0ATo teach him manners for the time to come.%0D%0AByron - Don Juan Canto xxv%0D%0A|61 47|1|What Would Jenna Drink%3F|davsand||22:46:02|12/26/2001|That is what I was thinking when I pulled up this thread.%0D%0A%0D%0AOn one board or another I remember seeing a drinking game by that name.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DAnd when they came for the mimes%2C I said nothing...%5B%2Ffont%5D|0 48|2|Warlike Wombats Jump Divinely|DrGonzoLives||23:57:18|12/26/2001|%3Aevilgrin%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%0D%0A%22You can%27t have something for nothing%0D%0AYou can%27t have freedom for free%22 %0D%0A- Rush%2C %22Something For Nothing%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%22But glittering prizes and endless compromises%0D%0AShatter the illusion of integrity%22 %0D%0A- Rush%2C %22Limelight%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%22No his mind is not for rent%0D%0ATo any god or government%0D%0AAlways hopeful yet discontent%0D%0AHe knows changes aren%27t permanent.%22%0D%0A-Rush%2C %22Tom Sawyer%22%5B%2Ffont%5D|47 51|2|What would Jenna Drink...|Lithos||03:56:03|12/27/2001|Cute%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DA little curly-headed%2C good-for-nothing%2C%0D%0AAnd mischief-making monkey from his birth%3B %0D%0AHis parents ne%27er agreed except in doting%0D%0AUpon the most unquiet imp on earth%3B%0D%0AInstead of quarrelling%2C had they been but both in%0D%0ATheir sense%2C they%27d have sent young master forth%0D%0ATo school%2C or had him soundly whipp%27d at home%2C%0D%0ATo teach him manners for the time to come.%0D%0AByron - Don Juan Canto xxv%0D%0A|47 76|2|Drinking game%3F well then....Why Waste Jack Daniels%3F|bushwentawol||23:56:30|12/30/2001|Seriously%2C I think there can still be some kind of divine creator without submitting to the idea of a Xian god. This thread while very informative%28one should receive 3 semester credits in religion%29 completely ignores the existence of others before Jesus%2C one being Mitras.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DWhat do you call someone who%27s a military deserter and a rapist%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A Mr. President%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AThis I believe%3A that the free%2C exploring mind of the%0D%0A individual human is the most valuable thing in the world.%0D%0A And this I would fight for%3A the freedom of the mind to%0D%0A take any direction it wishes%2C undirected. And this I must%0D%0A fight against%3A any idea%2C religion%2C or government which%0D%0A limits or destroys the individual. -- John Steinbeck%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|47 64|1|WWJD--you pick and choose|Marianne||06:46:20|12/28/2001|It is interesting to read the excellent debate here%2C but in the end%2C what does it matter%3F What is apparent is that a man%2C who may have existed or not%2C has been mythologized and contains all the qualities necessary for individual worship to be satisfying to those who feel the need to do so. One can pick and choose%2C with a lot of material and interpretation written over almost 2000 years from which to choose. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A Christianity rides the wave of it%27s mythological Jesus%2C and whatever the political flavor of the time demanded%2C so the myth was embellished and strenghthened to suit the times. So one sees violence%2C hatred %2C killing and abuse justified on the one hand%2C or love %2C tolerance%2C wisdom etc. on the other and some who see flexibility with a little of each in their shopping cart--pick and choose--it%27s all there%2C apparently%2C for whatever way one needs to use it%2C according to their own likes and dislikes. %0D%0A%0D%0A |0 74|1|There Was No Jesus%2C But|farmboxer||04:11:50|12/30/2001|the Jesus figure was the %22Prince of Peace%22%2C he loved the poor%2C etc. Bush hates the poor%2Fmiddleclass%2C likes death and suffering%2C only the rich are human to Bush%2C the poor%2Fmiddleclass are subhuman%21 How can they twist such a myth%3F%21 I guess it%27s the Republican addendum to the Bible%21|0