Jonathan Freedland (Guardian): What would you suggest?

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Jack Rabbit (7811 posts) Feb-18-03, 10:20 PM (ET) Jonathan Freedland (Guardian): What would you suggest? From the Guardian of London Dated Wednesday February 19 What would you suggest? Those who are opposed to war on Iraq need to show that there is a peaceful way to liberate its people By Jonathan Freedland Here's the question every opponent of the coming war on Iraq fears most: well, what would you do? We're comfortable enough announcing what we would not do, rattling off all the flaws, contradictions and hypocrisies of the war camp. We've got those arguments down pat, and apparently they're winning the day: witness not only the million-plus who marched last weekend but the clear majority polled by the Guardian yesterday against a military attack. But what do we say when our opponents ask not for our criticisms but our alternative course of action? I don't mean our solution to Iraq's arsenal of weapons of mass destruction. On that we can legitimately dispute the scale and urgency of the threat, citing other more pressing dangers. Nor do we have to find a response to the alleged links between Baghdad and al-Qaida: the evidence for those is so flimsy even Downing Street seems embarrassed by the claim. No, we need an answer to the argument which has become Tony Blair's favourite in recent days: that war is needed to topple a cruel tyrant who has drowned his people in misery. In this view, the coming conflict is a war of liberation which will cost some Iraqi lives at first, to be sure, but which will save many more. It will be a moral war to remove an immoral regime. To oppose it is to keep Saddam in power . . . . So the anti-war campaign has to make three sharp moves. First, we have to establish that we oppose the Ba'athist regime with all the fervour now claimed by the PM . . . . Second, we have to dispute Blair's description of the coming attack as a war of liberation . . . . Third, the peace camp has to set out its own, alternative method of ridding Iraq of its oppressor. We have to have an answer to our critics' legitimate question: what would you do? Read more . . .   Alert Edit | Reply | Top

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Subject     Author     Message Date     ID    Umm.... dissenter Feb-18-03 1    Who's "they"? carnicat 02/18/2003 2        Iraq isn't even a question Maple 02/18/2003 3            It's not? carnicat 02/18/2003 4    dissenter... Sapphocrat 02/18/2003 6        Exactly AliceWonderland 02/19/2003 8        Not only that, but it's a bullshit question to start with for another ... Eloriel 02/19/2003 9  Peaceful liberation of Iraq... Martin Eden Feb-18-03 5    Terrific post priller 02/19/2003 7

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dissenter (661 posts) Feb-18-03, 10:21 PM (ET) 1. Umm.... So, they're expecting "our solution" to their self-created "problem". What we should be saying is: Where's Osama?! www.whatreallyhappened.com www.counterpunch.com www.antiwar.com   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

carnicat (208 posts) Feb-18-03, 10:34 PM (ET) Reply to post #1 2. Who's "they"? Freedland's anti-war and he's absolutely correct.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Maple (298 posts) Feb-18-03, 10:43 PM (ET) Reply to post #2 3. Iraq isn't even a question Never was. But everyone has successfully been diverted from the mess in Afghanistan.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

carnicat (208 posts) Feb-18-03, 10:52 PM (ET) Reply to post #3 4. It's not? You've got me confused. Iraq's not a question? All I can say is if that's true it's a pity so many people wasted time protesting this weekend, then. You're right about Afghanistan, though. But the question of what anti-war people should do about that is somewhat separate from the question about what we should do about Iraq. And yes, we should offer something other than just opposition. And simply saying, "Oh well, there's a lot of evil people doing evil things in the world," is to turn our back on a huge opportunity. Anyway, that's what I got out of Freedland's column. And I agree with it.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Sapphocrat (296 posts) Feb-18-03, 11:44 PM (ET) Reply to post #1 6. dissenter... I hope you don't mind, but I just co-opted your thought (it was a great one!) and dashed off a note to the author: Dear Mr. Freedland, Thank you for another thought-provoking commentary, "What would you suggest?" (February 19, 2003). While the question of an alternative to war is a valid one, I believe the larger point is missed: Why is the burden placed on those of us opposed to this war to come up with a solution to a problem not of our making? I sincerely doubt that the vast majority of anti-war protesters are (or were ever) in support of the course of events that led the current U.S. administration to this point. I certainly don't need to offer you a lesson in recent history; suffice to say, had we (the U.S.) not been mucking about in the Mideast for so many years -- and for so many of the wrong reasons -- the monster known as Saddam Hussein would not possess what little power he has today. It concerns me that the question -- "What would _you_ suggest?" -- will become a more common and frequent tactic of the warmongers to distract us from the real issue: that this war is wrong. Full stop. We should all, to the best of our ability, pose as many peaceful and realistic alternatives as possible. But we should not under any circumstances fall prey to shouldering the burden of responsibility for a situation we did not create, and do not support. It is a diversionary tactic. Thank you again for your always-insightful writing, and for considering this point. Very truly yours, ..... Force is all-conquering, but its victories are short-lived. -- Abraham Lincoln How impious is the title of sacred majesty applied to a worm, who in the midst of his splendor is crumbling into dust! -- Thomas Paine, Common Sense This is not your father's search engine: http://www.GoQueer.com Ruin a movie: http://www.amuseyourself.com/moviespoilers/index.html   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

AliceWonderland (25 posts) Feb-19-03, 01:45 AM (ET) Reply to post #6 8. Exactly Thank you. The burden of proof is on pro-war, pro-bomb, pro-destablization, pro-guns-without-exit-strategy or pro-gun-without-political-plan crowd. Especially after Afghanistan. That's working well, eh?   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Eloriel (5912 posts) Feb-19-03, 02:03 AM (ET) Reply to post #6 9. Not only that, but it's a bullshit question to start with for another reason I don't have to have the answer to what's wrong with me when I go to the doctor; I don't have to know how the chef screwed up my meal when it tastes off; I don't have to tell the auto mechanic how to fix my car when it's not acting right. It's a bullshit question! Even so, I'll answer it: Do the Franco-German proposal! http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/reuters20030208_166.html Der Spiegel said the initiative, which it said had been dubbed "Project Mirage," included the following proposals: -- the some 150,000 U.S. troops already deployed to the Gulf should stay in place to force Baghdad to cooperate and be ready to invade if it breaches the new proposed U.N. resolution -- Iraqi President Saddam Hussein would be forced to admit thousands of armed U.N. troops to oversee intensified weapons inspections in the whole country as well as full disarmament, creating a de facto "U.N. protectorate" -- the number of weapons inspectors should be tripled from the current 100 operating in Iraq -- the no-fly zone over northern and southern Iraq should be extended to cover the whole country and French, German and U.S. reconnaissance planes should be allowed to patrol the skies -- a permanent U.N. coordinator of arms inspections in Iraq could be appointed -- sanctions should be made more focused to clamp down on oil smuggling by Iraq's neighbors and tighten export controls -- a special U.N. court should be established to oversee infringements of the new resolution and human rights abuses Eloriel First they ignore you Then they laugh at you Then they fight you Then you win. -- Gandhi Bush is neither a uniter, nor a divider. He's a destroyer. -- Eloriel   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Martin Eden (191 posts) Feb-18-03, 11:21 PM (ET) 5. Peaceful liberation of Iraq... ...is not something that can be imposed upon the regime of Saddam Hussein by well-intentioned UN resolutions. Ideas such as human rights inspectors and demanding that opposition parties be allowed to set up offices in Baghdad are doomed to failure as long as Hussein is in power. Such efforts would be incredibly frustrating, and eventually abandoned or booted out of the country by Hussein. Let's face it, without a legitimate threat of invasion, cooperation by the regime would be superficial at best. Saddam is a brutal dictator with an iron grip on all the internal power apparatus of his country; his regime cannot be reformed. The idea that opponents of this war need to find an alternative solution to liberating the Iraqi people is to deflect attention from the real issue. The real issue is whether or not this war is justified, whether it will make things better or worse for America's security, for Middle East stability, and for the long term prospects of world peace. I am convinced that this war would make things worse on all counts. As for the welfare of the Iraqi people, I don't think hundreds of cruise missiles and tons of munitions encased by depleted uranium are especially good for them. Beyond that, we cannot be expected, nor should we directly intervene to change foreign governments. We should definitely use our influence to foster freedom, democracy, and economic opportunity throughout the globe, but we can't do this at the point of a gun, and our track record in the Middle East belies our supposed intentions -- we installed the Shah of Iran, and supported Hussein in his war against Iran. So what's to become of Iraq? I don't see any course besides completing a thorough inspection process, lifting the no-fly zones and most of the sanctions (continue to ban weapons exports to Iraq), and doing what we can to ease tensions in this troubled region. Yes, this will leave Hussein in power, but what's the alternative? We faced down the Soviet Union for half a century; I think we can outlive the spectre of Saddam Hussein.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

priller (1329 posts) Feb-19-03, 01:02 AM (ET) Reply to post #5 7. Terrific post If the US took the lead in getting the sanctions lifted, started bringing in food and medicine and doctors, helped to rebuild their sewers and water infrastructure, etc, etc -- show what a Democracy is supposed to do -- then you might see the people in the ME rethink their opinion of the US. If "spreading democracy" really is their goal, actions such as these would further that goal so much better than the bombs and bullets and depleted uranium. The simple-minded Bushies are looking for an ideal solution where one doesn't exist, and are blinding themselves to the enormous downsides and potential blowbacks to their plan.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

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