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Ohio State fascism - What happened today

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AngryWhiteDemocrat (1099 posts) Click to EMail AngryWhiteDemocrat Click to send private message to AngryWhiteDemocrat Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 03:55 PM (ET)
Ohio State fascism - What happened today
LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-02 AT 03:59 PM (ET)

As I sit here before you, I must admit I am truly exhausted from a full day. I've read the thread about Ohio State on LBN, and I am here to tell you it is true...and then some. I'll try to hit all the details.

And what happened to us is truly unbelieveable.

We arrived at Ohio Stadium at 6am. A rally was scheduled at the Jesse Owens memorial site for that time, and the graduates were to be at their places by 630am. Family and friends were permitted to enter at that time as well.

I didn't get close enough to the 6am rally, but in my search for an organizer of Turn Your Back On Bush, I did indeed hear the announcement. Graduating students were told that they would be expelled and arrested if they turned their backs. they were alerted that dozens of staff memebers and police officers would be watching the stands, as well as the Secret Service. A few students asked for the definition of expulsion....did it mean removal from the stadium or refusal of their diplomas, or both? One of the persons at the front said "Both. And what will your parents do when they are paged from the crowd to bail out their son?" I do not know if this person had an official capacity with the Ohio State University or any police department.

I must say, I did not hear that exchange. I was informed of it later when I found outside the stadium protesting. To tell these ADULTS that after 4 years and 80,000 dollars that they would be tossed aside if they didn't face a certain direction?????

I began to wonder how many of those students went to find their friends who were graduating pre-law.....

We entered the stadium later with family and friends, and similar statements swirled around the crowd. "Please make sure you stand and loudly cheer our President. Our graduates have been requested to do the same, and have agreed to give a loud cheer for Mr. Bush", etc.....

Once inside, we decided that it might not be a good idea to be too close to the front. We saw the lines of people waiting to get in the stadium.....and yes, we saw the yellow buses that carted them all in. I asked one of them where they were from. The woman replied "Upper Arlington". However, she could not provide a zip code when I asked her for it (the main zip code for UA is 43221). Figuring on the masses of bussed-in people, we knew it might not be wise to be up front.

We went behind the graduates and looked for peace signs on the mortar boards (a sign that was meant to ID the Turn-Your-Backers). It was really difficult to get an accurate count, but there were a LOT of peace signs. I was sure that we weren't the only ones counting peace signs.

It didn't take long for our stomachs to turn....the first speaker (I believe teh OSU President) began spouting about how proud they were to have Bush there. He said "We have a long tradition of inviting great men and women to speak at our commencements." I quickly responded "but since we couldn't get one, here's Georgie".

That got the attention of the state trooper in front of us. His eyes were on me the rest of the time.

The speech continued to mention that Chimpy was "a tireless worker in the field of education" and "a man who unified this country after the terrible events of 9/11". It was interesting to note that it took a LONG time for the 9/11 applause to turn into a standing ovation....they held out for that one, not continuing the speech intentionally.

About 10 minutes later, Shrub was introduced to speak. Before he even got to the stage, we did our about-face. I looked over my shoulder to see how many graduates were doing the same. However, everybody was standing at that point, and in pure black robes, it was impossible to see who was facoing what direction. Furthermore, over that same shoulder, I saw one of Columbus' Finest heading our way.

We never got to see how many students participated. We were being led out of Ohio Stadium. To the officers' credit, he realized there was a 3-year-old in my arms and was not at all hostile. I asked him if I was under arrest, and he did not answer me. When we reached the exit, I asked the SS man why we had been ejected, and he told me we were being charged with disturbing the peace. If we chose to leave, the charges would be dropped immediately.

With our daughter in mind, we chose not to fight it. I am sure we will regret it someday when Bush's fabulous economy strikes us and we need a few million in a lawsuit. But our daughter did not need any more irritation on this day.

On this day, June 14th, 2002, I came to the realization that we no longer live in a free society. This is rapidly heading in the same way Nazi Germany headed. Questioning our leaders is no longer the most outrageous crime you can be charged with. Not paying attention to them is.

As you take in this message I give to you, I would like to add a footnote.
Next time, I will not leave quietly.
Next time, I will not allow you to intimidate my fellow Americans who wish to speak out.
Next time I will not be so blind when I confront you.
Next time we meet, I will have more people with me to oppose you.
Next time, I will have brought voter registration cards for people whose eyes I will open to your oppression.

And next time, I will have a babysitter.

Watch what you say, or they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal."
-Supertramp

Proud Card-Carrying Member Of The Grassy Knoll Society

  Alert Edit | Reply | Top

  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 It's a sad day Walt Starr Jun-14-02 1
   It's only sad if we DO get used to it. RationalAnarchist 06/14/2002 110
       America in distress... larebiL 06/14/2002 122
           Bush to Siberia! RationalAnarchist 06/15/2002 186
               What a Hypocritical bunch you are LincolnLad2 06/15/2002 259
                   If you do not see the difference between a private web site Rainbowreflect 06/15/2002 269
                       private privy figureitout 06/15/2002 273
                           Bull Alenne 06/15/2002 274
                   Do you support private property? RationalAnarchist 06/15/2002 272
                   You guys need to learn some new tricks! Tigerlily 06/16/2002 276
                   It's the next day and your post is still here. Cronus 06/16/2002 297
 Good God, AngryWhite Democrat Tigerlily Jun-14-02 2
   Was anyone actually arrested? pw 06/14/2002 5
 Aren't there ANY grounds for a lawsuit? Some sort of action against th... playahata1 Jun-14-02 3
   EXACTLY! Any Lawyers out there with some feedback???1 bardgal 06/15/2002 248
       What's next They'll jail democrats, and only count republican votes! bardgal 06/15/2002 249
       Constitutional Cause of Action cybervigilante 06/16/2002 304
 extremely disturbing! ithacan Jun-14-02 4
   Clinton's security service... PorcupinePhil 06/14/2002 96
       Clinton 96 buz46 06/14/2002 183
           Turn your back Callisto 06/16/2002 286
 You did more than I would have. bindlewurdle Jun-14-02 6
 Thank you, AWD notsodumbhillbilly Jun-14-02 7
   Thanks for the report AWD!! newyawker99 06/14/2002 15
 GODDAM IT! deutsey Jun-14-02 8
   I'm with you D! GinaMaria 06/14/2002 41
   May I suggest the patriotic thing. RationalAnarchist 06/14/2002 111
   Thanks for going and the report.... PaDUer 06/14/2002 113
 Outrageous!!! Ripley Jun-14-02 9
   Heard on radio today PaDUer 06/14/2002 117
   ...violent frat boys... chromotone 06/15/2002 255
 What you told us is significant & of course very sad -- but what you RichM Jun-14-02 10
 thanks, AWD ~ you did good!!!!!!! harrie Jun-14-02 11
 Ohio, Germany orwell Jun-14-02 12
 OMG - from one of own we hear cluedin Jun-14-02 13
 This event will crush Bush beware_of_god Jun-14-02 14
   BUSH IS A COWARD beware_of_god 06/14/2002 16
       I can't believe this pampered SOB Tigerlily 06/14/2002 23
           Well... Loralye 06/22/2002 332
   They're already trying to diminish it cybervigilante 06/18/2002 314
 Unbelieveable! A peaceful, non-verbal protest... alg0912 Jun-14-02 17
   Yes, send a letter to Ohio newspapers too deutsey 06/14/2002 19
       EVERYONE CALL THIS NUMBER! snooper2 06/14/2002 84
 Thank you for your reportage and your courage Squeech Jun-14-02 18
 Mr. Bush, need we remind you: playahata1 Jun-14-02 20
   Off the Cliff Notes orwell 06/14/2002 63
       Won't do any good LiberalFighter 06/15/2002 205
       from first hand experience... cosmicdot 06/15/2002 232
 Thank you for being so courageous. barbaraann Jun-14-02 21
 Thank you AWD myrna minx Jun-14-02 22
 DAMN AWD............. jus_the_facts Jun-14-02 24
   AWD, thank you. Outstanding!! revcarol 06/14/2002 37
 Breaching the Peace! AP Jun-14-02 25
   Really, it isn't... PorcupinePhil 06/14/2002 98
       But turning away and standing in silence? alg0912 06/14/2002 124
           See... PorcupinePhil 06/14/2002 147
               Tell me, what would have happened if the protesters had Star 06/14/2002 149
                   THAT.... PorcupinePhil 06/14/2002 151
               Case Study orwell 06/14/2002 158
                   Look at what was actually done... PorcupinePhil 06/14/2002 164
                       The question is whether the act of standing and turning is harmful 0rganism 06/14/2002 175
                   Case Study kos 06/14/2002 174
                       Brandenburg v Ohio 0rganism 06/14/2002 178
                       It is colorable that Bush's speech was unprotected Faun Otter 06/15/2002 225
                   case study bct999 06/18/2002 312
               Uh....no, those don't apply 0rganism 06/14/2002 171
               But... Kurukami 06/16/2002 280
                   The message delivered isn't what's important... PorcupinePhil 06/16/2002 290
       If giving large sums of money to a politician . . Fuzz 06/14/2002 132
       There is a BIG difference ... maryallen 06/14/2002 150
           Thge problem is... PorcupinePhil 06/14/2002 152
               people who don't applaud during the State of the Union ... Lisa 06/14/2002 155
                   The decision to applaud or not to applaud.... PorcupinePhil 06/14/2002 157
                       "applause" is the example that's needed. TahitiNut 06/15/2002 188
                           They'd argue... PorcupinePhil 06/15/2002 190
                               And I'd argue ... TahitiNut 06/15/2002 197
                                   That.... PorcupinePhil 06/15/2002 198
                                       If it were a non-governmental speaker ... TahitiNut 06/15/2002 199
                                           accomodate dissent... PorcupinePhil 06/15/2002 200
                                           Suggestion for future dissent: applaud at inappropriate times. Wonk 06/15/2002 201
                                               what a hilarious idea! salin 06/15/2002 212
                                                   Any 4-syllable word pronounced almost correctly? TahitiNut 06/15/2002 247
                                                       THAT... PorcupinePhil 06/15/2002 257
                                                       beautiful... they wouldn't know if it was 'real' applause or protest salin 06/15/2002 262
                                                           Highlighting ... TahitiNut 06/15/2002 266
                                               In the District of Northern Virginia, yes. Davis_X_Machina 06/15/2002 261
               Case Study II orwell 06/14/2002 161
                   If it blocked people's vision... PorcupinePhil 06/14/2002 165
                       No, I don't see the point. stickdog 06/15/2002 267
       Restrictions on .... SelfGovern 06/16/2002 292
           That's absurd... PorcupinePhil 06/16/2002 293
               Absurd SelfGovern 06/16/2002 295
                   There ARE a lot of restrictions... PorcupinePhil 06/16/2002 305
   Bush last July: "you don't have to listen unless you really want to" Lisa 06/14/2002 121
       then another idea that doesn't 'block people's view' salin 06/15/2002 213
           In that vein...See no EVIL, Hear no EVIL, speak no EVIL PsychoDad 06/15/2002 227
       Bush is simply amazing !! SoCalDem 06/16/2002 275
 Here's a number for Angry White Democrat JulieRB Jun-14-02 26
   awesome, JulieRB!!!!!!!!! harrie 06/14/2002 31
   I emailed the Freedom Forum Crisco 06/14/2002 35
   Thanks Julie GinaMaria 06/14/2002 48
   National Lawyers Guild? Harley Quinn 06/14/2002 50
   President dipwad is obviously not concerned with the constitution MTracyKid 06/14/2002 106
   Way to go Julie!! Nancy Waterman 06/14/2002 159
 Action Needed....not just Ripley Jun-14-02 27
 Maybe if you had turned your back and set a flag on fire? Mr_SmokesTooMuch Jun-14-02 28
 Will you call Malloy on this? MalloyProducer Jun-14-02 29
   Mike's talking about this now CatWoman 06/14/2002 47
 Please, Please, Tell me somebody had a Camcorder ... MadAsHell Jun-14-02 30
   Man o man proud patriot 06/14/2002 40
   or were recording devices prohibited? nostamj 06/14/2002 44
 Will our leaders speak out? barbaraann Jun-14-02 32
   yes, i completely agree, barbara ann ma21385 06/15/2002 237
 I am very proud to know their are people like you out there. Rainbowreflect Jun-14-02 33
 AWD, I Am So Shocked - I Can't Believe This Happened heidiho Jun-14-02 34
 I salute your bravery. soup Jun-14-02 36
 I'm proud of you AWD. denverbill Jun-14-02 38
 AWD, thank you ... classics Jun-14-02 39
 Malloy is going to read AWD's report deutsey Jun-14-02 42
 AWD- May I use your words in an email? Dr Fate Jun-14-02 43
 Just when I thought I couldn't possibly get more angry... _Wayne_ Jun-14-02 45
 Across the Field 5thGenDemocrat Jun-14-02 46
   another tactic? sinookas 06/14/2002 59
 I called OSU office of the president (you won't believe this) - americanstranger Jun-14-02 49
   And another DU'er is saying AP is retracting the story deutsey 06/14/2002 51
       That would be me - americanstranger 06/14/2002 57
   Bull crap. I know someone who graduated today. Maeve 06/14/2002 55
   AWD you did right freddie57 06/14/2002 62
   A More Powerful Moment of enlightment for America Could Not Have Happe... BlazeDiem 06/14/2002 179
 OMFG Shadoobie Jun-14-02 52
 Kiss them good bye bowens43 Jun-14-02 53
 Thank you AWD for taking your stand. I promise you I will follow when... MarinCoUSA Jun-14-02 54
   ya wanna bet? nostamj 06/14/2002 60
 Hey, AWD! northzax Jun-14-02 56
   Northzax. playahata1 06/14/2002 58
       That's amazing NoFreep4U 06/14/2002 67
           I thought she had an older daughter. playahata1 06/14/2002 70
       thanks for the correction northzax 06/14/2002 68
           My bad, Northzax. playahata1 06/14/2002 76
   Set the record...... AngryWhiteDemocrat 06/14/2002 119
       I wrote this letter to MSRNC- fed2dneck 06/14/2002 140
       AngryWhiteDem, I'm confused. Tigerlily 06/15/2002 214
           A friend AngryWhiteDemocrat 06/15/2002 219
               ??? Tigerlily 06/15/2002 223
                   You ust be young.... AngryWhiteDemocrat 06/15/2002 239
                       Oh no I'm not but... Tigerlily 06/15/2002 242
       Thanks for clearing this up. playahata1 06/15/2002 258
 my god this is sickening dirk Jun-14-02 61
   idea!!......... PaDUer 06/14/2002 128
 AWD, You're Already On Buzzflash and MWO heidiho Jun-14-02 64
   and freeperville... northzax 06/14/2002 71
       I see a couple of them "get it" dirk 06/14/2002 91
   Done and done! IrateCitizen 06/14/2002 90
   I just sent a scathing letter to my local paper... Kurukami 06/16/2002 281
 ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING. TNOE Jun-14-02 65
   TNOE Eloriel 06/14/2002 172
 Incredible WilliamPitt Jun-14-02 66
 PERMISSION??? WilliamPitt Jun-14-02 69
   W. Pitt rees 06/14/2002 73
       Hell, I hope you DO get scooped northzax 06/14/2002 77
   Yes AngryWhiteDemocrat 06/14/2002 120
 Unbelievable. Absolutely unbelievable. Kitsune Jun-14-02 72
   Yay, AWD...Thank You For Your Report...And GREAT Line... WillyT 06/15/2002 236
 Need the number to the office of the President at OSU.... buckleyd2 Jun-14-02 74
 I sent this on to CNN and CBS TrogL Jun-14-02 75
   Send to.... PaDUer 06/14/2002 141
 Thank you, AWD! We need to spread this story. robbedvoter Jun-14-02 78
 Youre a brave person acaudill Jun-14-02 79
 It doesn't matter where this is reported. haymaker Jun-14-02 80
   AP website has small video Ripley 06/14/2002 82
       i seriously doubt.... flush_bush 06/14/2002 162
           when has the chimp pepsibetterthancoke 06/15/2002 238
 Thank you for the account... and your courage IrateCitizen Jun-14-02 81
   You too? CarbonDate 06/14/2002 95
       AF Vet Catch22Dem 06/15/2002 193
 Thank you, AWD coalminersdaughter Jun-14-02 83
 Just got in touch with Bob Fertik at Democrats.com playahata1 Jun-14-02 85
   and you claim... salin 06/14/2002 102
   Bob Fertik?? Mr Anti-Democrat?? rabid_nerd 06/15/2002 195
       Not to distract from the central issue cybervigilante 06/16/2002 302
 Typical Republican (Fascist) Bullshit Junkdrawer Jun-14-02 86
 Sounds familiar DrWeird Jun-14-02 88
 You'll be Proud of this your entire life ribofunk Jun-14-02 89
   BTW, several of the freeper posters seemed to agree ... altemail 06/14/2002 97
       ...not all freepers respect freedom. alg0912 06/14/2002 99
 On Mike Malloy live 15:46 MDT TrogL Jun-14-02 92
   Finished now TrogL 06/14/2002 94
 I AM FURIOUS, but I am greatful AWD 0rganism Jun-14-02 93
 I am sickened trof Jun-14-02 100
   Welcome to the DU trof! alg0912 06/14/2002 103
   Welcome trof GinaMaria 06/14/2002 107
   What a magnificent first post, trof!! If any of your future remarks RichM 06/14/2002 114
   This is no longer the country I served. ConcernedAmerican 06/14/2002 176
   Welcome trof...To The DU...Great Post !!! WillyT 06/15/2002 243
 I am stunned. The hell with bunnypants. To you AE bo44 Jun-14-02 101
   well done xchrom 06/14/2002 104
       - - - - - ! Q 06/14/2002 105
           Precisely! Once again- Clinton at OSU - no threats, expulsions robbedvoter 06/14/2002 112
 Sickeningly sad DemEx_pat Jun-14-02 108
   Discretion, the better part of Valor. tcmits 06/14/2002 131
   Which is.... AngryWhiteDemocrat 06/14/2002 137
 The Time for Active Resistance has Come RationalAnarchist Jun-14-02 109
 How many were escorted out for turning their backs? ramblin_dave Jun-14-02 115
 I haven't.. DumpGump Jun-14-02 116
   So what do you intend to do, besides post to a forum? psychlist1972 06/14/2002 123
       Good for you, DumpGump! alg0912 06/14/2002 125
           Thanks psychlist1972 06/14/2002 133
               And what have you done, Pete? Tigerlily 06/15/2002 206
       What does it cost... PaDUer 06/14/2002 143
       So what do you plan to do? DEMActivist 06/14/2002 148
       Me personally? Kurukami 06/16/2002 282
 "but since we couldn't get one, here's Georgie" Lisa Jun-14-02 118
 No offense, but so far we only have your word on this psychlist1972 Jun-14-02 126
   I don't mind AngryWhiteDemocrat 06/14/2002 139
       I'd sue OSU, Richard Hollingsworth, and Bush if I were you fed2dneck 06/15/2002 252
   Well, the AP has an article on it. Kurukami 06/16/2002 283
 register a protest complaint cosmicdot Jun-14-02 127
   OSU alums... revcarol 06/14/2002 134
   I called the number at OSU that you gave amelia 06/14/2002 145
 The OSU President should resign immediately for this outrage jsaro Jun-14-02 129
   ooops... it's Ohio State... alg0912 06/14/2002 130
       Oooooops is right! jsaro 06/14/2002 142
   president is leaving notmypresident 06/14/2002 154
 You just never know what will precipitate a reaction Junkdrawer Jun-14-02 135
 AP is already rewriting it's story tcmits Jun-14-02 136
   Two different authors on these two articles Cronus 06/14/2002 160
   Actually, it's still there in some form... Kurukami 06/16/2002 284
 you are one of the lead stories over at buzzflash.com hippiegranny Jun-14-02 138
 Irony: Jesse Owen Memorial ruocal Jun-14-02 144
 Letter to OSU president, William E. Kerwan Seatreaty Jun-14-02 146
   I sniff fascism.... flush_bush 06/14/2002 166
   Earlier this year.... Junkdrawer 06/14/2002 168
 Thank you, AWD, for having the guts to do the right thing! BJ Jun-14-02 153
 Glad you're okay AWD! Susang Jun-14-02 156
   It occurs to me that it was at Kent Sate, also in Ohio, Nancy Waterman 06/14/2002 167
       tin soldiers and Nixon coming cosmicdot 06/15/2002 226
 Outrageous!! madmax Jun-14-02 163
   fascism ewing2001 06/14/2002 170
       Hi ewing, I hope you're feeling better today! Tigerlily 06/15/2002 207
 Well Done... Patriot_Spear Jun-14-02 169
 I am so angry subbi326 Jun-14-02 173
   Ohio allenswill 06/14/2002 177
       Welcome Allenswill! GinaMaria 06/14/2002 181
       Playing It Right Now As I Read This Tread...Tears Flowing... WillyT 06/15/2002 246
 If we don't fight against THIS atrocity then what greater one are we w... BlazeDiem Jun-14-02 180
   I'm not waiting any more... Lee Templeton 06/15/2002 185
       Great letter Lee B Calm 06/16/2002 289
 Since that two bit Texas Slug stole the office............. Magginkat Jun-14-02 182
 AWD Revolution Jun-15-02 184
 Good Job AWD paradox Jun-15-02 187
 How SAD Truthseeker15 Jun-15-02 189
   Communist Press Corp! allenswill 06/15/2002 192
   ????? Tigerlily 06/15/2002 208
   Look at all the newbies 9215 06/15/2002 215
 Ohio State fascism Marthe48 Jun-15-02 191
 How frightening... socialdemocrat1981 Jun-15-02 194
 Thank you AWD.... rabid_nerd Jun-15-02 196
 Forgive me for this, but if you were the grad, your reccount doesn't w... CTV Jun-15-02 202
   Clarification AngryWhiteDemocrat 06/15/2002 220
 Wow seeken Jun-15-02 203
   Is that what you'd do? TahitiNut 06/15/2002 204
   What is it with all the newbies encouraging violence today? Tigerlily 06/15/2002 210
       You had to know... DEMActivist 06/15/2002 216
       something fishy... PaDUer 06/15/2002 218
 Fine Report! skip fox Jun-15-02 209
 Question for AngryWhiteDem... Tigerlily Jun-15-02 211
   Friend AngryWhiteDemocrat 06/15/2002 222
       OHHHHHH. Thank you for clearing that up. Tigerlily 06/15/2002 224
 You did not disappoint us, AWD LiberalTexan Jun-15-02 217
   Unfortunately, Al Gore did behave the same way in 2000 travvller 06/15/2002 228
       How can you say???? AngryWhiteDemocrat 06/15/2002 240
       Just because you give contact info... buckleyd2 06/15/2002 244
       Welcome to DU, Patrick! TahitiNut 06/15/2002 251
       Funny, I was at a Gore rally Anj 06/15/2002 253
           You go!! desi826 06/15/2002 265
       I read this post at the Free Republic site yesterday. PhuLoi 06/16/2002 288
       Checked your group out cybervigilante 06/16/2002 300
 Thank You AWD PsychoDad Jun-15-02 221
   OSU- Call to Action! MGKrebs 06/15/2002 230
 Went to sleep, had a good breakfast, and... Lee Templeton Jun-15-02 229
 good job awd iviangri Jun-15-02 231
 The word from Ohio State gdewan Jun-15-02 233
   Perhaps this deserves it's own thread? Tigerlily 06/15/2002 234
   Please start a separate thread on this Lee Templeton 06/15/2002 235
   Bullsh*t... buckleyd2 06/15/2002 241
 pride is what makes nuclear bombs Hatrackman Jun-15-02 245
 Thank you, AWD SCantiGOP Jun-15-02 250
 OSU denies anyone was escorted out. Loupegarou Jun-15-02 254
   gdewan's post said that Mr. Kerwin would be out of the office... buckleyd2 06/15/2002 256
       In response to buckleyd2 .... indigo 06/15/2002 270
       I haven't received responses either Eloriel 06/16/2002 279
   Second version of that OSU response Lee Templeton 06/15/2002 263
 Where is the truth, what really happened? ramblin_dave Jun-15-02 260
   So enlightening. The information age. When you follow a link Lee Templeton 06/15/2002 264
   For as big a protest... mustangshell 06/15/2002 268
   Hmmm. We need to have people... Kurukami 06/16/2002 285
       Video cameras recording the protestors outside as well MyDogSpot 06/16/2002 291
 related thread peacey Jun-15-02 271
 punc ganesh Jun-16-02 277
   Ohhh! Lookie! A punctuation critique! So (ir)relevant! TahitiNut 06/16/2002 294
   irrelevant clause -- poor sentence construction 0rganism 06/16/2002 296
 I'm Curious EastofEdon Jun-16-02 278
 AngryWhiteDemocrat, Ski & Skinner talked about your letter B Calm Jun-16-02 287
 If we can't turn our backs on him, Let's laugh at him. George Tirebiter Jun-16-02 298
   won't work cybervigilante 06/16/2002 303
       Nah, laughing or turning away are not disturbances of the peace ... George Tirebiter 06/17/2002 308
 Cause of Action? cybervigilante Jun-16-02 299
 A reminder of how things SHOULD be NicksCrusade Jun-16-02 301
   Hello Nickscrusade! Lee Templeton 06/17/2002 306
 Unbelievable, yet believable.... FreedomNewsNetwork Jun-17-02 307
   What were they so worried about? WatchWhatISay 06/17/2002 309
 BUSH=HITLER, thank you for noticing! angrywhitedemocrat, happyherpes Jun-17-02 310
 There are getting what they wanted FiveOfSix Jun-17-02 311
 bump Tigerlily Jun-18-02 313
 OSU Nazi Poster - Get 'em While They're Hot ;') cybervigilante Jun-18-02 315
 It doesn't matter cybervigilante Jun-18-02 316
 Plain Dealer: OSU quells protest but gets angry words cosmicdot Jun-18-02 317
 "Ohio State fascism - What happened today" Leon122 Jun-18-02 318
   The Protests. Inncubus 06/19/2002 319
       Check out Salon.com/ Table Talk hairydog 06/19/2002 320
 I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS!!!!! pallandr Jun-20-02 321
   Salon Links hairydog 06/20/2002 322
 Grrrrrrr... Colonel Jun-20-02 323
   Let me guess Colonel.... snooper2 06/20/2002 324
       Actually. Colonel 06/20/2002 325
   What's good for the goose? cybervigilante 06/20/2002 326
       that's easy Marianne 06/20/2002 327
   "Patriotism" hasn't died. Kurukami 06/20/2002 328
   How much "RESPECT" did you give Clinton, Kernal? TahitiNut 06/20/2002 329
       Has the ACLU been contacted? PresidentAlGore 06/21/2002 330
   Re:Grrrrrrrr .... HUH? vmounts 06/28/2002 334
   P.S. vmounts 06/28/2002 335
 Um, exactlly where did Bush figure into this other than being the targ... rickshaw Jun-22-02 331
 Respect Buck Jun-23-02 333

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Walt Starr Donating Member (1457 posts) Click to EMail Walt%20Starr Click to send private message to Walt%20Starr Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 03:58 PM (ET)
1. It's a sad day
We'd better get used to it, freedom is dead.

Competency Matters

Proud member of the Grassy Knoll Society
since 1963

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RationalAnarchist (24 posts) Click to EMail RationalAnarchist Click to send private message to RationalAnarchist Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 06:29 PM (ET)
Reply to post #1
110. It's only sad if we DO get used to it.
We should reject it and smash it.
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larebiL (10 posts) Click to EMail larebiL Click to send private message to larebiL Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 07:03 PM (ET)
Reply to post #110
122. America in distress...
Image
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RationalAnarchist (24 posts) Click to EMail RationalAnarchist Click to send private message to RationalAnarchist Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 00:16 AM (ET)
Reply to post #122
186. Bush to Siberia!

Bush to Siberia!


A desolate place is a terrible thing to waste!


Image
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LincolnLad2 (1 posts) Click to EMail LincolnLad2 Click to send private message to LincolnLad2 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 04:40 PM (ET)
Reply to post #186
259. What a Hypocritical bunch you are
I have to say that I am appalled at the reported actions of Bush and his cronies. It is not surprising at all though. He did the same and worse to those in Texas who demonstrated against him in front of the Governor's home there.

But, i thought that the real significance of this thread is to show the hypocritical nature of Democratic Underground. DU runs around this site deleting posts it doesn't like. It deletes posts critical of Israel. It deletes posts of articles that are not from its "approved" sites of news sources. I recall reading where the admin here deleted posts of articles from antiwar.com and said that only stories from "approved" sites are permissible. The approved sites were determined as the NY Times and the Wash Post.

So, for you all to be complaining about Bush&Co censoring and quashing dissent, it rings hollow.

Have a good day. I'd be surprised to see this post still here when I return later.

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Rainbowreflect (196 posts) Click to EMail Rainbowreflect Click to send private message to Rainbowreflect Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 07:03 PM (ET)
Reply to post #259
269. If you do not see the difference between a private web site
making rules on posts and being able to peacefully protest against an unconstitutionally appointed "president" I feel very sorry for you.
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figureitout (1 posts) Click to EMail figureitout Click to send private message to figureitout Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 10:07 PM (ET)
Reply to post #269
273. private privy
it all begins with private entities making rules for the rest of us to follow.
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Alenne (93 posts) Click to EMail Alenne Click to send private message to Alenne Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 10:19 PM (ET)
Reply to post #273
274. Bull
DU doesn't make rules for the "rest of us to follow." Do you have to follow the rules of DU in your everyday life? No. You only have to follow their rules if you are a member of DU. If you don't like the rules don't be a member. It is that simple.
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RationalAnarchist (24 posts) Click to EMail RationalAnarchist Click to send private message to RationalAnarchist Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 09:54 PM (ET)
Reply to post #259
272. Do you support private property?
If you do, then you're contradicting yourself.
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Tigerlily Donating Member (5490 posts) Click to EMail Tigerlily Click to send private message to Tigerlily Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 07:29 AM (ET)
Reply to post #259
276. You guys need to learn some new tricks!
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Cronus (582 posts) Click to EMail Cronus Click to send private message to Cronus Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 07:53 PM (ET)
Reply to post #259
297. It's the next day and your post is still here.
Surprised?

Visit My Favorite Web Sites
Cronus Connection —http://cronus.com/ Progressive buttons — http://brainbuttons.com/
Great Indie Music — http://brainscream.com/ Political Satire —http://bushspeaks.com/

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Tigerlily Donating Member (5490 posts) Click to EMail Tigerlily Click to send private message to Tigerlily Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:00 PM (ET)
2. Good God, AngryWhite Democrat
I don't even know what to say.
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pw (273 posts) Click to EMail pw Click to send private message to pw Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:03 PM (ET)
Reply to post #2
5. Was anyone actually arrested?
That would be a slam-dunk.
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playahata1 Donating Member (1553 posts) Click to EMail playahata1 Click to send private message to playahata1 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:00 PM (ET)
3. Aren't there ANY grounds for a lawsuit? Some sort of action against the university.
I mean, Ohio State is a PUBLIC institution, an arm of the STATE. The STATE cannot compel you to adhere to a particular political viewpoint. Somebody HAS to say something. Somebody out there has got to say "Enough is enough!" Peace.
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bardgal (3 posts) Click to EMail bardgal Click to send private message to bardgal Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 01:57 PM (ET)
Reply to post #3
248. EXACTLY! Any Lawyers out there with some feedback???1
This is beyond outrageous!
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bardgal (3 posts) Click to EMail bardgal Click to send private message to bardgal Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 02:00 PM (ET)
Reply to post #248
249. What's next They'll jail democrats, and only count republican votes!
Anyone doubt this?
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cybervigilante (307 posts) Click to EMail cybervigilante Click to send private message to cybervigilante Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 10:02 PM (ET)
Reply to post #248
304. Constitutional Cause of Action
I think the OSU students have a Constitutional cause of action. Civil rights were Definitely violated by the University and the police, and the University is a state body. Might not get past the rightwing USSC but think of the publicity that will spread the word about fascism at OSU. Here's the possibly applicable law.

I also believe the section of 42 U.S.C. § 1983 (saying "..under color of state law" gives even more latitude for interpretation. Even city cops and state university officials can act under color of state law and a threat of arrest Was made under that color.

However, I'm getting varying opinions on it. That it would be frivolous and invite sanctions (I sure don't think it's frivolous, at least as to the cause). Or you couldn't get an attorney - maybe the ACLU or another group? Or maybe just let the university worry about it without actually filing ;')

These opinions seem to mostly be legal timidity though, not an outright "can't be done." I know a lot of Pro Se people who went after their own suits when lawyers said it wouldn't be cost effective.

==========================

42 U.S.C. § 1983 (Civil Rights Act of 1871)

GENERAL A person states a claim under 42 U.S.C. § 1983 if he alleges that the defendant deprived him of a constitutional right while acting "under color" of state law. Specifically, § 1983 provides that: Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer's judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia.


LIMITATION PERIOD & FILING REQUIREMENTS In actions under Section 1983, a court must ascertain the analogous underlying cause of action under state law and apply the applicable statute of limitations. There is no requirement to file with the EEOC or administrative agencies before instituting a Section 1983 action in court.


JURISDICTION In order to state a claim under § 1983, a plaintiff must allege a violation of rights secured by the Constitution or laws of the United States, and that such violation was committed by a person acting under the color of state law.


REMEDIES/DAMAGES Section 1983 permits victims of employment discrimination to obtain a jury trial at which both equitable and legal relief, including compensatory and, under certain circumstances, punitive damages may be awarded. Johnson v. Railway Express Agency, Inc., 421 U.S. 454 (1975).

Jim Mooney

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ithacan (361 posts) Click to EMail ithacan Click to send private message to ithacan Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:02 PM (ET)
4. extremely disturbing!
thanks angrywhitedemocrat for the report from the front lines. This is truly outrageous, and I am feeling sick after reading it.

But on the bright side: They are afraid. Only someone who truly fears would resort to this kind of silencing tactic. I think I mentioned in another post on this topic that this is the kind of thing that dictators commonly do. Democratic leaders do not behave like this. Can you imagine if Clinton had tried anything like this? I can't imagine him even doing it, but can clearly imagine the rightwingers' response if he did. Let's see if the right wingers respond on this one.

Do you know if others were also led out?

I think it would be just as effective or even moreso if many people had been led out, during Bush's speech. That mass expulsion would have been a statement all in itself.

Thank you for standing up for all of us, AWD!

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PorcupinePhil (309 posts) Click to EMail PorcupinePhil Click to send private message to PorcupinePhil Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:58 PM (ET)
Reply to post #4
96. Clinton's security service...
regularly took right-wingers out of crowds. I know there were cases where hecklers were arrested by the SS and detained until after Clinton had left. Hell, sometimes you didn't even have to be anti-Clinton for this to happen....remember the woman who asked him to sign her shirt, and then shucked it off, leaving her there in her bra? She was quickly taken away, and later released.
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buz46 (1 posts) Click to EMail buz46 Click to send private message to buz46 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 11:58 PM (ET)
Reply to post #96
183. Clinton 96
These were not "hecklers", they were simply turning their backs.
Furthermore, it's one thing to be removed from a crowd; but to be threatned with arrest and the nullification of ones academic career is quite another.
I often wonder if Bush Is, to paraphrase him, "the evil one", or if those around him are truely dictating policy. I am leaning towards the latter. I suspect, to a certain extent, that this has been the case with all presidents since the assassination of JFK. However, W's version of this charade is the worst I have seen since Reagan's second term!! No one can be that stupid. They should get him better speech writers; at least try to maintain the illusion.
The reason I got off topic is that I find it hard to imagine W ordering security to behave this way. More likely it was some overzealous aide and the, ass kissing, University Faculty.
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Callisto (14 posts) Click to EMail Callisto Click to send private message to Callisto Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 03:41 PM (ET)
Reply to post #183
286. Turn your back
I remember when a huge crowd of Viet Nam Vets turned thier backs on Clinton, and Clinton stood there in silence for a few minutes..and then he said "I have heard YOU, now YOU hear me..."
and that my babies was right on the prime time corporate news. Say what you want about Bill, but you can't say he was thin skinned...What about the Freepers at the white house....my God, what hypocrisy the right wing has. They make me want to puke.Heck, they make Jesus puke.

I haven't seen anything about Ohio state on TV except how fabulous everyone thinks the stupid Chimp is. (Tin god) Bush is such a baby. Can't take the heat, never worked in the kitchen, either.

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bindlewurdle Donating Member (352 posts) Click to EMail bindlewurdle Click to send private message to bindlewurdle Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:03 PM (ET)
6. You did more than I would have.
Good job. Good reporting.

---
for the curious, my name is from a purposely bad poem in Douglas Adams's(1952-2001, RIP) book 'Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy.'

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notsodumbhillbilly (210 posts) Click to EMail notsodumbhillbilly Click to send private message to notsodumbhillbilly Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:03 PM (ET)
7. Thank you, AWD
for being courageous enough to turn your back in spite of threats.

"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke

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newyawker99 Donating Member (5212 posts) Click to EMail newyawker99 Click to send private message to newyawker99 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:08 PM (ET)
Reply to post #7
15. Thanks for the report AWD!!
It is a sad story you tell!!

Image

Image Image Image Image


This is not the life I ordered.

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Theodor Geisel

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke

"Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my friend." Albert Camus


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deutsey (1314 posts) Click to EMail deutsey Click to send private message to deutsey Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:04 PM (ET)
8. GODDAM IT!
THis is unbelievable! Please send this to Buzzflash and Mike Malloy!

OK, DU'ers. WE MUST DO SOMETHING. The time for endless talk is over. The battle lines are drawn. If you can't stand up and silently protest in this country without be led away by police, the game is over for America.

What are we going to do?

We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
The Buddha

“Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring those ripples build a current which can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance." –Robert F. Kennedy, South Africa, 1966

Image

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GinaMaria Donating Member (1965 posts) Click to EMail GinaMaria Click to send private message to GinaMaria Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:29 PM (ET)
Reply to post #8
41. I'm with you D!
LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-02 AT 04:34 PM (ET)

LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-02 AT 04:31 PM (ET)

The time is now! What are we going to do? It's time to risk arrest. It's time to get babysitters. It's time to stop applauding, cheering and standing for this dictator theif. I am beside myself.

When will we formulate a plan and act? When they start dragging college professors away and putting them into camps? When they falsly accuse and imprison your loved ones? Will you protest as they drag you and your children away and put you all to death?

The events taking place recently are frightening. History warns us to beware. Get ready to stand up or get your passport ready and pack your things, cuz it's for real now.

Great job AWD

If you write something up, we can all get it to our local papers. This needs to be a massive campaign to expose chimpy to the light. Let's take the anger and bitterness and turn it into action.

Bush Knew

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RationalAnarchist (24 posts) Click to EMail RationalAnarchist Click to send private message to RationalAnarchist Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 06:30 PM (ET)
Reply to post #8
111. May I suggest the patriotic thing.
It happened in 1776. I can be done again.
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PaDUer (80 posts) Click to EMail PaDUer Click to send private message to PaDUer Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 06:34 PM (ET)
Reply to post #8
113. Thanks for going and the report....
however, next time, now that this is occurring, don't take any small children that must be held in your arms due to them possibly getting hurt & always bring others w/ you for the performance of your life. This can't and should not stand in anyone's way of our rights. If we run from them, they're going to do it all the more..they're getting away w/ everything they're doing. Bring a camera or camcorder to take their pix also.
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Ripley (27 posts) Click to EMail Ripley Click to send private message to Ripley Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:05 PM (ET)
9. Outrageous!!!

I am an alum of OSU and in my day the SS Columbus police did mass arrests on people who happened to be around campus after a big football game....anybody. Due to the usually violent frat boys who busted out windows, lit cars on fire, etc. even when we WON! I was caught in the crossfire after work one saturday, had to escape to the roof of a high st. building. SCARY over football, but this is much worse. Truly it smacks of fascism and the fact that none of the major media will report this makes it real.

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PaDUer (80 posts) Click to EMail PaDUer Click to send private message to PaDUer Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 06:46 PM (ET)
Reply to post #9
117. Heard on radio today
some R talk show, he was making a joke about the liberals saying that the US Army is going to be coming to your house and drag you off to a camp, that the govt can monitor what you do in your house, knows what's on your computer, etc., and was telling his audience that the liberals are just doing this to cause trouble. Guess he hadn't heard about what happened here at OSU or chose not to discuss it.
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chromotone (323 posts) Click to EMail chromotone Click to send private message to chromotone Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 03:03 PM (ET)
Reply to post #9
255. ...violent frat boys...
"...mass arrests on people who happened to be around campus after a big football game....anybody. Due to the usually violent frat boys who busted out windows, lit cars on fire, etc..."

You mean like George W. Bush:

"Just after the governor's reelection in 1998, Slater pressed Bush about whether he had ever been arrested. 'He said, 'After 1968? No.'" Dallas Morning News, 11/03/2000 (Before 1968, Bush was arrested for theft and vandalism in college.)

George Bush now admits that he was convicted of drunk driving. On September 4, 1976, a state trooper saw Bush's car swerve onto the shoulder, then back onto the road. (The Bush camp spin that he was driving too slowly is simply a lie.) Bush failed a road sobriety test and blew a .10 blood alcohol, plead guilty, and was fined and had his driver's license suspended Bush has brazenly and repeatedly lied to cover up and minimize this arrest

Bush said he paid a fine on the spot and never went to court. That is clearly a lie, as you can see on this court document showing his court hearing a month later. In fact, it was a man also in court for DUI the same day who revealed Bush' arrest. Here is exactly what Bush said in his press conference: Bush: "I told the guy I had been drinking and what do I need to do? And he said, "Here's the fine." I paid the fine and did my duty...." Reporter: "Governor, was there any legal proceeding of any kind? Or did you just -- " Bush: "No. I pled -- you know, I said I was wrong and I ..." Reporter: "In court? " Bush: No, there was no court. I went to the police station. I said, "I'm wrong."

In fact, Bush' running mate Dick Cheney now admits he had two drunk driving offenses in 1962 and 1963, giving the Bush -- Cheney ticket a new world record of 3 DUI's on one ticket. No wonder they seem so relaxed

Bush now justifies covering up his arrest "to be a good role model for his daughters." How does he figure that? Lying to cover up your crimes is not what I call being a good role model. Taking responsibility for your actions, admitting fault honestly and warning people of the consequences you suffered, THAT would be a good example.

http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#quotesources

I didn't even mention the cocaine use, but we've all heard about that...

Well. What do you think of this? Does it all just make him more HUMAN? Is he really a great example for our country?

The main point isn't JUST that he DID these things, its that he LIED about them.
http://www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm240843.html


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RichM Donating Member (1117 posts) Click to EMail RichM Click to send private message to RichM Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:05 PM (ET)
10. What you told us is significant & of course very sad -- but what you
did, & the viewpoint you expressed here, win my complete admiration.
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harrie Donating Member (1628 posts) Click to EMail harrie Click to send private message to harrie Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:07 PM (ET)
11. thanks, AWD ~ you did good!!!!!!!
As you've seen, DUers, having read the news, had been eagerly awaiting your account all day, so thanks for checking in! The outrageous oppression at OSU has inspired some keeper how-to threads about protesting, so good does come out of bad.

Sounds as tho' you did the best you could under the circumstances. Had you resisted arrest, you would've ended up outa there anyway.


Woman in audience: "Sir, ... I'm sure you'll get the vote of every thinking man and woman in America."
Adlai Stevenson II: "Thank you madame. But that won't be enough. You see, I need a majority."


Mr. Belvedere: "Mr. King, if more people just sat and thought, the world might not be in the stinking mess that it is." ( ~ Sitting Pretty 1948)


Image

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orwell (868 posts) Click to EMail orwell Click to send private message to orwell Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:07 PM (ET)
12. Ohio, Germany
Zeig Heil!

Just practicing for when the Blackhawks buzz my house.

Truly beyond the pale. How is turning your back disturbing the peace? And if you did break the law, why was the officer granted discretion in the arrest?

Constitutional Rights Abridged:

Freedom of Speech
Freedom of Assembly

Here is a little link for the Ohio State Police and the Administration at OSU (and of course the Bush MisAdministration

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.table.html#amendments

Check out the first amedment. It's radical dude!

Maybe they all need to go back to school.

O

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cluedin Donating Member (2884 posts) Click to EMail cluedin Click to send private message to cluedin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:07 PM (ET)
13. OMG - from one of own we hear
What the hell is going on in this country? I am ashamed that they would do this...

Thank you AWD for what you did.

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beware_of_god (1485 posts) Click to EMail beware_of_god Click to send private message to beware_of_god Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:08 PM (ET)
14. This event will crush Bush
All we have to do is harp on this event. It is very well documented and has shocked many people.

This single event will snowball into a huge issue for Bush and he will have to face the question, "why is he afraid to face his oppostion?"

Don't let go of this one: the Cowboy will have to put up or shut up.

Clinton was never a coward like Bush (W and HW) were and are.

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beware_of_god (1485 posts) Click to EMail beware_of_god Click to send private message to beware_of_god Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:09 PM (ET)
Reply to post #14
16. BUSH IS A COWARD
AFRAID TO FACE OPPOSITION - AFRAID!
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Tigerlily Donating Member (5490 posts) Click to EMail Tigerlily Click to send private message to Tigerlily Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:15 PM (ET)
Reply to post #16
23. I can't believe this pampered SOB
would deny these kids their diplomas. I can't believe this.
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Loralye (1 posts) Click to EMail Loralye Click to send private message to Loralye Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-22-02, 10:35 PM (ET)
Reply to post #23
332. Well...

Loralye
The truth is doll, that kind of stuff happens all the time. At
my school the kids had planned to put marbles in the principal's
hand (one marble per kid, because everyone hated the witch)
and were threatened with having their diplomas taken
away. Only ten kids did it, and nothing happened to them.
The truth is, under fear of legal action, unless you commit
a crime, they cannot with-hold, take away, revoke, etc
your diploma. No High School, College or University in the U.S.,
public or private, is stupid enough to try it. Usually because
they have something to hide, and most of them do
(usually involving athletics). So all of there BSing
means nothing more than "If you do this we'll be pissed".

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cybervigilante (307 posts) Click to EMail cybervigilante Click to send private message to cybervigilante Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-18-02, 06:19 PM (ET)
Reply to post #14
314. They're already trying to diminish it
By saying no one was arrested.

That's not the point. The minute the threat was made to arrest or suspend people, by a State official, it became a 1983 section violation of their civil rights under the Constitution.

That threat abrogated the right to free speech and peacable assembly of many who no doubt refrained from a demonstration that could put four years of hard work and an eighty thousand dollar investment at risk. It's a hard choice and they shouldn't have had to make it.

BTW, don't forget my OSU Nazi Poster at:

Image

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alg0912 Donating Member (400 posts) Click to EMail alg0912 Click to send private message to alg0912 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:09 PM (ET)
17. Unbelieveable! A peaceful, non-verbal protest...
LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-02 AT 04:10 PM (ET)

...and you were treated this way? Threatened with arrest? For turning your body???

This goes WAY beyond absurd!!! Tell your story to anyone who will hear it! Tell the media - this just isn't AMERICAN! I hope some did choose to be arrested (I certainly understand why you chose not to). What can they be charged with? Assault with a deadly shoulder blade???

Please, tell someone in the media!

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deutsey (1314 posts) Click to EMail deutsey Click to send private message to deutsey Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:10 PM (ET)
Reply to post #17
19. Yes, send a letter to Ohio newspapers too

We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
The Buddha

“Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring those ripples build a current which can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance." –Robert F. Kennedy, South Africa, 1966

Image

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snooper2 (340 posts) Click to EMail snooper2 Click to send private message to snooper2 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:33 PM (ET)
Reply to post #19
84. EVERYONE CALL THIS NUMBER!
Ohio State University - University Relations
Lee Tashjian, Vice President
111 Bricker Hall
190 North Oval Mall
Columbus, OH 43210
(614) 292-4373

http://unvrel.ohio-state.edu/index.html

"In these awful days, George W. Bush has become the American Yasir Arafat, an empty, repetitive, shifty public personality who talks out of both sides of his mouth, with little or nothing to say from either of ’em. Oh, he’s still Israel’s man: maybe not quite as much as he was on Tuesday, but more than he was on Thursday, though by Sunday, who knows, he might be back in staunch-ally mode again, or conversely he might have a few encouraging words for the Arab side. He’s as purposeful as a wind-up toy boat with a bent rudder doing circular putt-putts in the bathtub."

by Nicholas von Hoffman, New York Observer


Quote of the Day: "In my state of the ... my State of the Union or state - my speech to the nation - whatever you want to call it, speech to the nation." – President Bush, Tuesday morning in Connecticut. (Thanks to CBS News Correspondent Mark Knoller traveling with the president.)

© MMII, CBS Worldwide Inc. All Rights Reserved.

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Squeech (351 posts) Click to EMail Squeech Click to send private message to Squeech Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:10 PM (ET)
18. Thank you for your reportage and your courage
Ohio has a tradition of doing bad things to college students-- consider Kent State 1970.
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playahata1 Donating Member (1553 posts) Click to EMail playahata1 Click to send private message to playahata1 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:12 PM (ET)
20. Mr. Bush, need we remind you:
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Hell, you probably can't even read this! DUMBASS!

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orwell (868 posts) Click to EMail orwell Click to send private message to orwell Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:57 PM (ET)
Reply to post #20
63. Off the Cliff Notes
Of course he hasn't read the First Amendment. The question is, has anyone even 'briefed' him on it...

O

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LiberalFighter (47 posts) Click to EMail LiberalFighter Click to send private message to LiberalFighter Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 06:53 AM (ET)
Reply to post #63
205. Won't do any good
Won't do any good to brief that dumbass. How can he comprehend anything when he can't even talk right?
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cosmicdot (112 posts) Click to EMail cosmicdot Click to send private message to cosmicdot Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 11:33 AM (ET)
Reply to post #63
232. from first hand experience...
...from this contemporary mindset we'll call "George W Bush"...

...I heard it with my own ears: they don't care about Founding Principles...

...just providing themselves a carpet of gold...

When I first heard it come out of someone's mouth in 1996, it frightened more than anything else I had experienced. American Society had a class of people who have totally lost touch with what "America" is all about. They are real. They are corporate america's good ol'boys and girls.

I conjecture that the Bigger Picture is a major, high-stake poker game: old money vs. new money; old industry vs. new industry. This,imo, is above all the other "issues" in current world events.

What was it that has been said? "It's the economy, stupid." ?

Highly recommend: http://www.theyrule.net
It helps to reduce the number of players "ante-ing" up.

The stakes are quite high when such ante as the idea of nuclear strike is thrown in.

Bill Gates is not happy when his kingdom gets hurt in the market.

Poppy Bu$h can't do it alone, so he forms "alliances" under the name "The Carlyle Group", and it is expanding its investments at a hair-raising rate.

The Bilderbergers. Henry Kissinger.

The EU.

Saudi Arabia and the Saudi-American Business Council to which the Carlyle Group, Halliburton, Andersen, Accenture, etc.
belong.

http://www.us-saudi-business.org/members.htm

Review the list and see who sit on the Boards of Directors at They Rule.

...and, so much more...

Ken Morgan
Scottsdale, AZ
cosmicdot
1st time voter for George McGovern '72

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barbaraann Donating Member (619 posts) Click to EMail barbaraann Click to send private message to barbaraann Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:15 PM (ET)
21. Thank you for being so courageous.
We shall see if our network news anchors will match your courage tonight.
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myrna minx (279 posts) Click to EMail myrna%20minx Click to send private message to myrna%20minx Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:15 PM (ET)
22. Thank you AWD
We have been waiting to hear form you all day. Be proud of your accomplishment, I know I am.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
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jus_the_facts (287 posts) Click to EMail jus_the_facts Click to send private message to jus_the_facts Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:16 PM (ET)
24. DAMN AWD.............
I was looking forward to an upbeat report of how things went and this turned into something beyond belief! I am sorry it didn't go as planned, but like you say NEXT TIME!!!!

"This is the first age thats paid much attention to the future, which is ironic since we may not have one."(Arthur C. Clarke)

"We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the Courts, not to overthrow the constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert it."(Abraham Lincoln)

"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."(Albert Einstein)

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approches this jewel. Nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined."(Patrick Henry)

"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."(General George Patton)
***************************************
***************************************
'em out!!!!! Or !!!

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revcarol Donating Member (3934 posts) Click to EMail revcarol Click to send private message to revcarol Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:26 PM (ET)
Reply to post #24
37. AWD, thank you. Outstanding!!
But will there be a NEXT TIME??

2, that's TWO, non-selected or captive audience appearances since 9/11. Will he come out of his cozy-little-world-where- everyone-loves-and-fawns-on-him anytime soon?? NOT LIKELY.
That's one reason why I was hoping this would be a success. I know everyone tried.

How about suing the Regents???They had to be sitting right up there on stage hearing and seeing everything!!Ask the ACLU.

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AP (3410 posts) Click to EMail AP Click to send private message to AP Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:16 PM (ET)
25. Breaching the Peace!
Man, that sort of political expression is totally protected by the constitution.
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PorcupinePhil (309 posts) Click to EMail PorcupinePhil Click to send private message to PorcupinePhil Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 06:02 PM (ET)
Reply to post #25
98. Really, it isn't...
you can't do whatever you want and then claim it's protected by the First Amendment. There are almost (not quite, but almost) as many restrictions on the First Amendment as there are on the Second Amendment.
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alg0912 Donating Member (400 posts) Click to EMail alg0912 Click to send private message to alg0912 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 07:10 PM (ET)
Reply to post #98
124. But turning away and standing in silence?
Of course that's protected free speech! No one harmed by it!!!
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PorcupinePhil (309 posts) Click to EMail PorcupinePhil Click to send private message to PorcupinePhil Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 08:06 PM (ET)
Reply to post #124
147. See...
Debs v. US, 249 US 211 and Schenck v US, 249 US 47. This is what you'll be facing in a legal challenge...I'm not saying it's RIGHT, but that's the case law.
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Star Donating Member (343 posts) Click to EMail Star Click to send private message to Star Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 08:25 PM (ET)
Reply to post #147
149. Tell me, what would have happened if the protesters had
just walked out after about 5 or 10 minutes of the Shrub's speech? You can't be expelled and arrested for leaving, but if enough people just get up and walk out in the middle of his speech, that's making a statement.

Proud Member of the Grassy Knoll Society

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PorcupinePhil (309 posts) Click to EMail PorcupinePhil Click to send private message to PorcupinePhil Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 08:29 PM (ET)
Reply to post #149
151. THAT....
would have to go to trial. The State would probably argue that it IS a protest, taking place at the same time as another function, so it wouldn't be protected.

The Plaintiffs might argue that requiring them to stay would be a violation of the 13th amendment. I don't know how the courts would rule on this, it's VERY close to the edge, and probably would hinge on the actual facts of the case, disruption caused, et cetera.

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orwell (868 posts) Click to EMail orwell Click to send private message to orwell Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 09:12 PM (ET)
Reply to post #147
158. Case Study
http://www.mclu.org/thenandnow.htm

"Debs v. United States, 249 U.S. 211 (1919)
Debs made two public speeches promoting socialism and denouncing capitalism and World War I. He was convicted under the Espionage Act. The court held that this political speech denouncing the prevalent public policy and advocating an alternative could be made criminal because potential draftees could hear the speech and be moved to resist the draft, thus satisfying the "clear and present danger" test.


Schenck v. United States, 249 U.S. 47 (1919)
The Espionage Act of 1917 made it a crime to cause insubordination in the military or to frustrate military recruitment. Schenck published a pamphlet critical of the Conscription Act and encouraging disobedience of it. The Court held the law constitutional, stating that the freedom of speech is not absolute, i.e., you cannot shout "fire" in a crowded theater. In this case the Court held that there must be a "clear and present danger" that the speech would lead to action. So, ironically, only effective speech was curbed.


I am not in the legal profession, but a cursory examination of these two cases does not seem to support the action taken today at OSU. Turning your back as a sign of protest to a man, even if he is the pResident, is not the same as "causing insubordination in the military," which seems more clearly seditious, especially in a time of war—even though war has not been declared by Congress in this case.

This seems pretty clear as a infringement on a silent non-disruptive protest aimed at the pResident himself. If the pResident's job performance is off limits to dissent, free political speech seems clearly threatened. If the protestors threatened the pResident in any way or disrupted the ability for those in attendance to hear the pResident's words, that obviously is a different matter.

I'm sorry but these two cases do not seem to apply at all. Thanks for the information however.

O

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PorcupinePhil (309 posts) Click to EMail PorcupinePhil Click to send private message to PorcupinePhil Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 09:39 PM (ET)
Reply to post #158
164. Look at what was actually done...
In one case, a speech was given by a Socialist Presidential Candidate, to MEMBERS OF HIS OWN PARTY. He wasn't standing outside of a recruiting station, he was in a rented hall that his party rented, addressing the party faithful. Still, his conviction was upheld, supposedly upon the idea that a draft-eligible person might have wandered in and been affected.

In Schenck, the important thing is that the First is not absolute...this opened the door for time, place, and forum restrictions, which is EXACTLY the basis of the Admin's actions today (I assume).

Please keep in mind...cases "on the four corners" are very, VERY rare.

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0rganism Donating Member (2260 posts) Click to EMail 0rganism Click to send private message to 0rganism Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 10:35 PM (ET)
Reply to post #164
175. The question is whether the act of standing and turning is harmful
In Debs, the speech was deemed harmful because it could have caused conscripts to refuse the draft. i.e., Debs was actively advocating a crime.

In Schenck, the speech was deemed harmful due to its locale, as you say, but the material content must be something which could actually offend to such a degree as cause bodily harm.

"The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent."

One would have to argue both that standing and turning constituted such speech as could be regulated by congress, and that the person who gave the announcement had sufficient authority to do so. This also raises a question of the police presence, under whose authority the state police attended and detained dissenters.

We put the USA in Usama!http://www.worldwar3report.com


And we're marching to Bastille DayMy blood is bruised and borrowed.
La guillotine will claim her bloody prizeYou thieving bastards.
Sing, o choirs of cacophony You have turned my blood cold and bitter,
The king has kneeled, to let his kingdom rise Beat my compassion black and blue.
Rush, Bastille DayTool, Ticks And Leeches

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kos (1 posts) Click to EMail kos Click to send private message to kos Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 10:33 PM (ET)
Reply to post #158
174. Case Study
LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-02 AT 10:46 PM (ET)

LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-02 AT 10:36 PM (ET)

Debs and Schenck are old law. The controlling case for government supression of dangerous speech is Brandenburg v. Ohio, which allows banning speech that "is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such actions."

This case is not about dangerous speech though. It is about balancing the rights of the protesters to Bush's first amendment rights. This is known as 'Ad hoc balancing.' Given that the students weren't interfering with Bush's speech (by shouting him down, or throwing rotten tomatoes, etc.), it seems as though the protest should've been allowed.

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0rganism Donating Member (2260 posts) Click to EMail 0rganism Click to send private message to 0rganism Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 11:02 PM (ET)
Reply to post #174
178. Brandenburg v Ohio
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=395&invol=444

An interesting brief.

"The line between what is permissible and not subject to control and what may be made impermissible and subject to regulation is the line between ideas and overt acts."

I think the implication for the current situation is that the form of expression is the end in itself, it does not advocate any future lawlessness or constitute any kind of direct danger.

It seems one could mount a challenge to the First Ammendment Zone principle on this basis.

We put the USA in Usama!http://www.worldwar3report.com


And we're marching to Bastille DayMy blood is bruised and borrowed.
La guillotine will claim her bloody prizeYou thieving bastards.
Sing, o choirs of cacophony You have turned my blood cold and bitter,
The king has kneeled, to let his kingdom rise Beat my compassion black and blue.
Rush, Bastille DayTool, Ticks And Leeches

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Faun Otter Donating Member (43 posts) Click to EMail Faun%20Otter Click to send private message to Faun%20Otter Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 11:04 AM (ET)
Reply to post #174
225. It is colorable that Bush's speech was unprotected
Note:

Brandenburg v. Ohio allows banning speech that "is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such actions."

Bush makes a speech inciting illegal and unconstitutional acts - this is unprotected by first ammendment rights. It becomes our patriotic duty to shout him down. The defence hinges on either his protected right to free speech since this is not "imminent" lawless action but a long term doctrine of greed, hate and theft from the public purse. Or it may be defended under his immunity from all law, as guarenteed by the Scalia ammendment. That's the one that says, "Sue my pet president and suffer the slings and arrows of a book by Regenery."

Just playing Falwell's advocate, but it is an arguable case.

Faun

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bct999 (2 posts) Click to EMail bct999 Click to send private message to bct999 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-18-02, 02:50 PM (ET)
Reply to post #158
312. case study
I think "their" biggest fear is that speech WILL lead to action! If we all acted according to our belief in this arena, the bigwigs would be mown down or thrown down!

If it were me, I would have performed the protest actions, and when denied my diploma, I would then sue the college for denying it. I would want them to either deliver the diploma to me, or return my tuition! As a consumer, they could not deny my diploma if I had earned it according to the existant rules. And if they say that I must conform to their ideals, I would reply that this was a new and unconstitutional rule that I cannot adhere to, and it should not preclude me from being granted a degree!

Only 1.5 yrs to go. I pray that the voters aren't divided by multiple parties again.....

B!

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0rganism Donating Member (2260 posts) Click to EMail 0rganism Click to send private message to 0rganism Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 10:18 PM (ET)
Reply to post #147
171. Uh....no, those don't apply
Debs v. US, 249 US 211
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=249&invol=211

This is not an attempt to spread socialist propaganda in a military unit, it is showing one's disapproval to a commencement speaker without interrupting either the ability of the speaker to speak or the audience to hear. Qualitatively different.

Schenck v US, 249 US 47
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=249&invol=47

Also an armed forces case, involving distribution of propaganda to military conscripts. This is a civilian institution, with civilian authority, and a civilian commencement speaker.

No printed material was distributed. No actions were taken which could have been construed as endangering the attendees. I think anyone trying to show that this is not protected speech would have one hell of a time trying to make the case.

We put the USA in Usama!http://www.worldwar3report.com


And we're marching to Bastille DayMy blood is bruised and borrowed.
La guillotine will claim her bloody prizeYou thieving bastards.
Sing, o choirs of cacophony You have turned my blood cold and bitter,
The king has kneeled, to let his kingdom rise Beat my compassion black and blue.
Rush, Bastille DayTool, Ticks And Leeches

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Kurukami Donating Member (1197 posts) Click to EMail Kurukami Click to send private message to Kurukami Click to view user profile Click to send message via ICQ Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 01:15 PM (ET)
Reply to post #147
280. But...
Both of those cases, from what I've read of them, seem to be against those who argued that it was illegal to conscript soldiers. The persons mentioned distributed fliers and spoke in apparent attempts to disrupt recruitment of armies.

I guess I'm not entirely sure how that ties in to making the act of turning one's back on someone "disturbing the peace". Could you elaborate, Phil?


History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it merely shouts "Weren't you listening the first time?!?" and lets fly with a club.


_____________________________

(upon being approached by a group seeking funding for a hospice for AIDS patients)
Governor Ashcroft: Then you have my attention. I'm looking for where it is cheapest to send them to die.
Harry Wiggins (group representative): Governor, that's not what we're here for. These are human beings.
Governor Ashcroft: Their pain and suffering is a result of their own misconduct.

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PorcupinePhil (309 posts) Click to EMail PorcupinePhil Click to send private message to PorcupinePhil Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 04:51 PM (ET)
Reply to post #280
290. The message delivered isn't what's important...
It's the likely reaction by the people who hear (or might hear) it. See Chicago Police Dept. v. Mosley, 408 U.S. 92 (1972). Marshall there states " all picketing must always be allowed. We have continually recognized that reasonable 'time, place and manner' regulations of picketing may be necessary to further significant governmental interests." He goes on at some length, but I'm too lazy to type it all in for you. (the case in question overturns an ordinance banning "unpopular" speech near a school, setting up the subject-matter neutrality test.)

It wouldn't matter what kind of protest was being conducted. There was already one event going on at the venue. Consequently, the government would have a compelling interest in keeping another event (the protest) out of the venue, and allowing them to take action to keep the protesters out of the venue to avoid causing a ruckus. Do you see the distinction?

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Fuzz (71 posts) Click to EMail Fuzz Click to send private message to Fuzz Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 07:18 PM (ET)
Reply to post #98
132. If giving large sums of money to a politician . .
to get favorable legislation is considered free speech, then silently turning your back to someone must fall under first amendment protection. To think otherwise is just ludicrous.
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maryallen Donating Member (384 posts) Click to EMail maryallen Click to send private message to maryallen Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 08:25 PM (ET)
Reply to post #98
150. There is a BIG difference ...
between doing "anything you want" and what was planned -- turning one's back.

Personally, I think -- IF the information gets out -- this incident will hurt Bush, particularly with those who graduated today. Young people are not stupid and they do not like to be told what to do and what not to do. Hopefully, these heavy-handed gestapo techniques will backfire.

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PorcupinePhil (309 posts) Click to EMail PorcupinePhil Click to send private message to PorcupinePhil Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 08:34 PM (ET)
Reply to post #150
152. Thge problem is...
that it's holding a protest in a venue that is already being used for another function. That, in and of itself, makes it unprotected, perWard v. Rock against Racism, 491 U.S. 781, (1989). Like I've said before, I don't like it, but those are the facts and existing case law.
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Lisa Donating Member (2901 posts) Click to EMail Lisa Click to send private message to Lisa Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 08:39 PM (ET)
Reply to post #152
155. people who don't applaud during the State of the Union ...
I seem to remember that there were a number of speeches given by President Clinton where Republican members of Congress just sat there. Granted, there wasn't a loudspeaker announcement ahead of time requesting that people cheer him on, but isn't the decision to remain silent a recognized form of non-disruptive protest?

Phil, can you help us with this one?

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PorcupinePhil (309 posts) Click to EMail PorcupinePhil Click to send private message to PorcupinePhil Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 08:50 PM (ET)
Reply to post #155
157. The decision to applaud or not to applaud....
isn't an organized protest, unless there is applause that is inappropriate. Imagine if Bush had gone up to speak, and everybody applauded nonstop for 4 hours, not allowing him to speak, as a form of protest. Can you see that this might be a disruption?

Keeping quiet (if that's what you're supposed to be doing, ie if you sit down and don't move on a crowded city street, this is different) can't be seen as a protest.

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TahitiNut Donating Member (2534 posts) Click to EMail TahitiNut Click to send private message to TahitiNut Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 00:18 AM (ET)
Reply to post #157
188. "applause" is the example that's needed.
If the behavior of those who DISAGREE is no more "disruptive" than an interruption for applause, how can it be deemed to be unprotected? Applause is, by its very nature, a noisy interruption of speech; a disruption, but an agreeable one. This, in essence, is at the heart of dissent and free speech: disagreement. To prohibit a behavior (in dissent) that's demonstrably no more disruptive than another behavior (in support) is, in and of itself, a prohibition of dissent. Such a prohibition cannot stand.

How soon we forget: Does anyone remember the publisher of the Sacramento Bee recently attempting to give a college commencement speech and being prevented from speaking by right-wing heckling, mostly from the guests?? "All of the animals are equal, but some are more equal than others."
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power." — Benito Mussolini
"We should never forget that everything Adolph Hitler did in Germany was legal" — Martin Luther King, Jr.
_ Image

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PorcupinePhil (309 posts) Click to EMail PorcupinePhil Click to send private message to PorcupinePhil Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 00:26 AM (ET)
Reply to post #188
190. They'd argue...
that applause isn't a disruption, as most speechwriters and makers include deliberate breaks for applause.

You MIGHT argue that if a person booed (or turned their backs if it's a standing ovation) ONLY during the time that there was applause going on, that it wasn't in fact a disturbance, as it took place during a scheduled break in the speech for "viewer feedback". I wouldn't want to have my freedom on the line on a case like that, though, as I doubt it would fly in court.

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TahitiNut Donating Member (2534 posts) Click to EMail TahitiNut Click to send private message to TahitiNut Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 01:51 AM (ET)
Reply to post #190
197. And I'd argue ...
LAST EDITED ON Jun-15-02 AT 01:52 AM (ET)

... that merely because an accommodation was sometimes made for only that kind of demonstration which was agreeable, even though both could be reasonably foreseen, that should not affect the assessment of the relative level of each behavior in terms of it's inherently disruptive potential. In other words, the behavior does not become less disruptive merely because the disruption intent is acceptable and selectively accommodated. Such an interpretation would have a chilling effect on all dissent and protected speech, relying as it does solely on the content of the behavior or speech, not on it's equitable treatment.
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power." — Benito Mussolini
"We should never forget that everything Adolph Hitler did in Germany was legal" — Martin Luther King, Jr.
_ Image

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PorcupinePhil (309 posts) Click to EMail PorcupinePhil Click to send private message to PorcupinePhil Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 02:05 AM (ET)
Reply to post #197
198. That....
will be a tough sell. I wouldn't want to have that as my only defense in court...would you?
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TahitiNut Donating Member (2534 posts) Click to EMail TahitiNut Click to send private message to TahitiNut Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 02:22 AM (ET)
Reply to post #198
199. If it were a non-governmental speaker ...
... the situation would be materially different. By the mere fact that it was the President[sic], the University has a duty to accommodate dissent, since they're acting as de facto agents of his, and the government, at that point in time. OSU is not a private school, and GWBush wasn't there in a private capacity.

Again ... remember what happened at the recent commencement speech here in Northern California when the publisher of the Sacramento Bee was heckled by right-wingers (mostly guests) and couldn't continue her speech?
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power." — Benito Mussolini
"We should never forget that everything Adolph Hitler did in Germany was legal" — Martin Luther King, Jr.
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PorcupinePhil (309 posts) Click to EMail PorcupinePhil Click to send private message to PorcupinePhil Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 02:28 AM (ET)
Reply to post #199
200. accomodate dissent...
at a different venue than the one in question. Now you're getting into the time/place/forum area, and it IS reasonable to only have one activity at each venue. If you need the caselaw, I'll dig it up tomorrow...now, I go bed. Night!!!
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Wonk (1163 posts) Click to EMail Wonk Click to send private message to Wonk Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 02:30 AM (ET)
Reply to post #199
201. Suggestion for future dissent: applaud at inappropriate times.
and LOUDLY, right in the middle of any otherwise boring sentence.

Can you imagine the look on the judges face when (s)he says "You are here today for causing a disturbance by applauding the pResident during his speech?"

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salin Donating Member (5925 posts) Click to EMail salin Click to send private message to salin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 08:27 AM (ET)
Reply to post #201
212. what a hilarious idea!
and with shrub - since he recycles the same speech for a couple of months at a time - one could find and use cue words or phrases in advance to signal the 'applause'.

"We expect there to be transparency. People who have something to hide make us nervous...." GWB in Alaska - discussing Iraq.

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TahitiNut Donating Member (2534 posts) Click to EMail TahitiNut Click to send private message to TahitiNut Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 01:54 PM (ET)
Reply to post #212
247. Any 4-syllable word pronounced almost correctly?
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PorcupinePhil (309 posts) Click to EMail PorcupinePhil Click to send private message to PorcupinePhil Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 03:50 PM (ET)
Reply to post #247
257. THAT...
would be a HOOT!!!!
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salin Donating Member (5925 posts) Click to EMail salin Click to send private message to salin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 04:48 PM (ET)
Reply to post #247
262. beautiful... they wouldn't know if it was 'real' applause or protest
since anytime he even attempts a 4 syllable word - it could be construed as a 'triumph'.

"We expect there to be transparency. People who have something to hide make us nervous...." GWB in Alaska - discussing Iraq.

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TahitiNut Donating Member (2534 posts) Click to EMail TahitiNut Click to send private message to TahitiNut Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 05:47 PM (ET)
Reply to post #262
266. Highlighting ...
... the abysmally low "approval" standards he's held to would be the most potent form of protest, particularly in showing ridiculous "approval" of his "performance" in the most trivial of instances.

Remember, Bu$h isn't the Emperor ... he's the "(k)new clothes".

The most effective approach would be an extreme parody of how he's constantly given/claiming credit for merely not fucking up ... while more competent people are condemned for not accomplishing miracles. Bu$h is supposedly a 'hero' for almost serving in the national guard, while Gore is derided for 'only' being in Vietnam for 6-7 months. What a ridiculous dual standard! Bu$h is extolled for barely getting an MBA from Harvard, while Clinton is demeaned for being a Rhodes Scholar! It's nuts. Well ... show it as even more nuts. Applaud Bu$h for even finding a chair, for pronouncing a word, for climbing stairs without falling, for the most miserable of "accomplishments".

One thing you could count on ... as soon as he caught on to being ridiculed, his Narcissistic Personality Disorder would guarantee he'd become visibly unhinged. He'd lose it. Big time.
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power." — Benito Mussolini
"We should never forget that everything Adolph Hitler did in Germany was legal" — Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Davis_X_Machina (302 posts) Click to EMail Davis_X_Machina Click to send private message to Davis_X_Machina Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 04:45 PM (ET)
Reply to post #201
261. In the District of Northern Virginia, yes.
In fact, nearly any part of the fourth Federal Circuit, yes..

"No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred of the Tory party. So far as I am concerned, they are lower than vermin." Aneurin Bevan on the Conservative Party

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orwell (868 posts) Click to EMail orwell Click to send private message to orwell Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 09:27 PM (ET)
Reply to post #152
161. Case Study II
Once again, this case seems to involve Rock Against Racism playing loud music in an area of Central Park where it interfered with other’s ability to enjoy peace and quiet. In other words, if the protest audibly disrupted the pResident's speech, that would be more likely to be covered by this case. But if they were silent, they are not interfering with anyone's right to hear.

Once again, if AWD is accurate in his report, this is not what happened.

Thanks again for the reference.

O

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PorcupinePhil (309 posts) Click to EMail PorcupinePhil Click to send private message to PorcupinePhil Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 09:41 PM (ET)
Reply to post #161
165. If it blocked people's vision...
then it would fall under the same category. Heck, if it made people NERVOUS....see the point?
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stickdog (82 posts) Click to EMail stickdog Click to send private message to stickdog Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 06:13 PM (ET)
Reply to post #165
267. No, I don't see the point.
And I personally believe that only Rehnquist, Scalia and Thomas would be so extremely intellectually dishonest to cast a silent, nonviolent, nondisruptive symbol of political dissent in an unconstitutional light (unless, of course, this case were to decide the Presidency).
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SelfGovern (2 posts) Click to EMail SelfGovern Click to send private message to SelfGovern Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 06:07 PM (ET)
Reply to post #98
292. Restrictions on ....

G. Thomas Rush

To quote:
> you can't do whatever you want and then claim it's
> protected by the First Amendment. There are almost
> (not quite, but almost) as many restrictions on the
> First Amendment as there are on the Second Amendment.

What restrictions are there in "Congress shall make no
law..."?

What restrictions are there in "... shall not be
infringed"?

If you want to be free, you've got to accept the whole
Constitution as it was written. You can't keep *your*
freedom while being willing to sacrifice the other
guy's, and expect to stay free.

thomas.

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PorcupinePhil (309 posts) Click to EMail PorcupinePhil Click to send private message to PorcupinePhil Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 06:14 PM (ET)
Reply to post #292
293. That's absurd...
unless you are willing to get rid of Fraud, Conspiracy, and Perjury statutes as violating the First Amendment. I've never, EVER seen a court of original jurisdiction, much less an appellate court, interpret the First Amendment in this manner.

There MUST be a line drawn...otherwise, you'll end up with human sacrifices being protected under Freedom of Religion. The most frequently drawn line is a compelling state interest...such as the State's interest in preventing breaches of the peace.

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SelfGovern (2 posts) Click to EMail SelfGovern Click to send private message to SelfGovern Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 06:31 PM (ET)
Reply to post #293
295. Absurd

G. Thomas Rush

Indeed, there is a valid government function in enforcing
contract law (fraud and perjury). But the poster implied
there were a *lot* of restrictions on the first amendment.
Perhaps there are, but it's because we've allowed laws
to be made in conflict with the clear meaning of the
document itself.


thomas.

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PorcupinePhil (309 posts) Click to EMail PorcupinePhil Click to send private message to PorcupinePhil Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 11:08 PM (ET)
Reply to post #295
305. There ARE a lot of restrictions...
on the First Amendment. They include concepts such as fighting words, time, place, and manner restrictions, the Establishment clause, broadcast restrictions, and prior restraint. The only Amendment that has more restrictions on it is the Second.
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Lisa Donating Member (2901 posts) Click to EMail Lisa Click to send private message to Lisa Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 07:00 PM (ET)
Reply to post #25
121. Bush last July: "you don't have to listen unless you really want to"
LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-02 AT 07:16 PM (ET)


Seriously.

"Now it's my honor to speak to you as the leader of your country. And the great thing about America is you don't have to listen unless you want to."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/07/20010710-1.html


Standing there quietly, deliberately not paying attention, is arguably even LESS aggressive than booing or heckling. (For one thing, Repubs in the crowd can't complain that they couldn't hear the speaker because of the noise!) What are they going to do next, drag away people who aren't applauding (or slap the ones who are zoned out or thinking about something else)?

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salin Donating Member (5925 posts) Click to EMail salin Click to send private message to salin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 08:29 AM (ET)
Reply to post #121
213. then another idea that doesn't 'block people's view'
using Bush's own terms - have people put on 'ear muffs' or some other visible way of indicating not listening. Little ear plugs just aren't visible enough to make the point.

"We expect there to be transparency. People who have something to hide make us nervous...." GWB in Alaska - discussing Iraq.

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PsychoDad (123 posts) Click to EMail PsychoDad Click to send private message to PsychoDad Click to view user profile Click to send message via ICQ Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 11:09 AM (ET)
Reply to post #213
227. In that vein...See no EVIL, Hear no EVIL, speak no EVIL
How about the old "See no EVIL, Hear no EVIL, speak no EVIL" gestures. Not loud, Not interuptive and ceranly not agressive.

And quite suited for the chimp in charge.

PsYChOdAd

"Neither was there any among them that lacked; for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need." Acts 4:34

"From each according to their ability, to each according to their need." Karl Marx.

Be sure to visit Uncle Selrach at
http://www.uncleselrach.homestead.com

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SoCalDem Donating Member (7758 posts) Click to EMail SoCalDem Click to send private message to SoCalDem Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 05:31 AM (ET)
Reply to post #121
275. Bush is simply amazing !!


"With free speech, you can gossip, criticize, attack and nobody is going to send you to jail"..g.w.bush 9/3/01

Bush said this himself.....it's been part of my sig line ever since ...


But I guess if you say nothiing..you CAN be sent to jail.


Image


"With free speech, you can gossip, criticize, attack and nobody is going to send you to jail"..g.w.bush 9/3/01


"...Ahm Gonna Wash That Thought Right Outa Yer Brain..".GOP Theme Song

Image

Image Image Image

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JulieRB Donating Member (384 posts) Click to EMail JulieRB Click to send private message to JulieRB Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:16 PM (ET)
26. Here's a number for Angry White Democrat
Hi AWD, I am in SHOCK.

Then again, would we expect any less from Crusader Bunnypants?

The ACLU in Seattle told me to give you this number; they're pretty damn interested in hearing what went on today. You can call them at 216/472-2200.

It is ILLEGAL to stifle First Amendment expression at a taxpayer-funded, public university.

Julie

Member of the Grassy Knoll Society, Duvall, WA Chapter

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harrie Donating Member (1628 posts) Click to EMail harrie Click to send private message to harrie Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:22 PM (ET)
Reply to post #26
31. awesome, JulieRB!!!!!!!!!


Woman in audience: "Sir, ... I'm sure you'll get the vote of every thinking man and woman in America."
Adlai Stevenson II: "Thank you madame. But that won't be enough. You see, I need a majority."


Mr. Belvedere: "Mr. King, if more people just sat and thought, the world might not be in the stinking mess that it is." ( ~ Sitting Pretty 1948)


Image

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Crisco (307 posts) Click to EMail Crisco Click to send private message to Crisco Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:24 PM (ET)
Reply to post #26
35. I emailed the Freedom Forum
And gave them the link to this first hand account. No idea whether or not they'll do anything with it.
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GinaMaria Donating Member (1965 posts) Click to EMail GinaMaria Click to send private message to GinaMaria Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:36 PM (ET)
Reply to post #26
48. Thanks Julie
It might be a good idea for future protests to give the ACLU a call and see what you can do.

Bush Knew

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Harley Quinn (276 posts) Click to EMail Harley%20Quinn Click to send private message to Harley%20Quinn Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:39 PM (ET)
Reply to post #26
50. National Lawyers Guild?
LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-02 AT 04:40 PM (ET)

I believe they handle cases like this as well, and are based in Seattle. I'll work on a number or site. Any Seattlites know if offhand?

And thank you for standing up AWD! Your child is lucky to have such a role model.

Peace be with here and all of us now.

HQ-if we could just get all of the nondegree holding Americans to do this...
Don't look here-I don't have a sig line yet.
I said stop looking!

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MTracyKid (38 posts) Click to EMail MTracyKid Click to send private message to MTracyKid Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 06:18 PM (ET)
Reply to post #26
106. President dipwad is obviously not concerned with the constitution
Just look at all the rights they are taking from us on a day to day basis. He usually busses in his adoring fans, so he must be running out of them too. He doesn't have an agenda because he wasn't elected, so why are we letting him get away with all this crap? What's he so afraid of? Oh, I forgot, he is a chicken.
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Nancy Waterman Donating Member (612 posts) Click to EMail Nancy%20Waterman Click to send private message to Nancy%20Waterman Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 09:13 PM (ET)
Reply to post #26
159. Way to go Julie!!
I was just going to post about contacting the ACLU. They could make a big loud stink!! Even the creepy Larry Klayman might be willing to sue!!
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Ripley (27 posts) Click to EMail Ripley Click to send private message to Ripley Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:16 PM (ET)
27. Action Needed....not just
praise for someone to walk out of their own graduation because of a turned back!!!!!!! AWD you really need to go to the local news channel and paper, and of course the campus paper and local radio and your congressional representatives on this one. The truth must be told...not the sick picture we will see of this which is Chimpy McSmirk standing in front of screaming fans (the ones shipped in from repug hq)!

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Mr_SmokesTooMuch Donating Member (989 posts) Click to EMail Mr_SmokesTooMuch Click to send private message to Mr_SmokesTooMuch Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:18 PM (ET)
28. Maybe if you had turned your back and set a flag on fire?

"He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man."
Samuel Johnson
Image

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MalloyProducer (55 posts) Click to EMail MalloyProducer Click to send private message to MalloyProducer Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:20 PM (ET)
29. Will you call Malloy on this?
Mike's been doing this story today, we'd LOVE to hear a first-person account, can you call 1-800-TALK-YES before 6PM ET???

thanks,

Kathy Bay
Executive Producer
The Mike Malloy Show
www.mikemalloy.com

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CatWoman Donating Member (7217 posts) Click to EMail CatWoman Click to send private message to CatWoman Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:34 PM (ET)
Reply to post #29
47. Mike's talking about this now
and is reading AWD's report.

Restore Gore in 2004

Image Proud Member of the Grassy Knoll Society -- Atlanta Chapter

No one can make you feel inferior without your permission -- Eleanor Roosevelt

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MadAsHell (7 posts) Click to EMail MadAsHell Click to send private message to MadAsHell Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:21 PM (ET)
30. Please, Please, Tell me somebody had a Camcorder ...
This is totally unbelievable ...

Did you happen to get badge numbers and etc.

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proud patriot Donating Member (6190 posts) Click to EMail proud%20patriot Click to send private message to proud%20patriot Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:29 PM (ET)
Reply to post #30
40. Man o man
LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-02 AT 04:30 PM (ET)

If bush thought he had a dissenter in me before today .
He ain't seen nothing yet ...I cannot believe how uttery
pissed this makes me .

<Image>;

Be sure to drop in & Introduce yourself at the daily thread in The Lounge


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nostamj Donating Member (454 posts) Click to EMail nostamj Click to send private message to nostamj Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:30 PM (ET)
Reply to post #30
44. or were recording devices prohibited?
this ain't your father's america. sickening.

DISSENT is ESSENTIAL
Member in Good Standing, Grassy Knoll Society (Ground Zero Chapter)

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barbaraann Donating Member (619 posts) Click to EMail barbaraann Click to send private message to barbaraann Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:23 PM (ET)
32. Will our leaders speak out?
Bill Clinton, Al Gore, Tom Daschle, Dick Gephardt, anyone...

We have been there for you. We need you now more than ever before. Please, lead the fight.

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ma21385 (32 posts) Click to EMail ma21385 Click to send private message to ma21385 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 12:31 PM (ET)
Reply to post #32
237. yes, i completely agree, barbara ann
what took place in ohio yesterday was absolutely outrageous. this is not something that should be happening in north america.

i hope that our leaders - be they republican or democratic - will stop shying away from this issue and speak out against this. this MUST be brought to the attention of the public, before it is too late.

Gore in '04!

The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then gets elected and proves it.
-P.J. O'Rourke

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Rainbowreflect (196 posts) Click to EMail Rainbowreflect Click to send private message to Rainbowreflect Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:23 PM (ET)
33. I am very proud to know their are people like you out there.
I am sitting here with tears running down my face as I realize how far this country has slipped in just 18 months.
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heidiho Donating Member (756 posts) Click to EMail heidiho Click to send private message to heidiho Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:23 PM (ET)
34. AWD, I Am So Shocked - I Can't Believe This Happened
We've been waiting all day for your report - I ws following the stories and watched Idiot Boy give his speech. Then I read the reports and I have been angrier today than I have been since December 20, 2000.
Hey, you were mentioned in the Freeper article I posted - they talked about your daughter and her T-Shirt. Bastards.
I am going to go and cry - I mean it.
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soup Donating Member (524 posts) Click to EMail soup Click to send private message to soup Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:25 PM (ET)
36. I salute your bravery.
Thank you for the report. So many have been waiting to hear from you.
Jr's speech- from what I caught of the broadcast, there were no crowd shots. So there may have been many more who turned their backs, or were being led out.
The announcement of expulsion and arrest seem to come out of the blue. Did it feel that way to you? A sort of last minute, last ditch, and most likely, very effective effort to control any dissent.
The fact they had SS and troopers monitoring the crowd for something as simple as a silent backside is very frightening.
Carrying a small child, and given the options you had, you did the best you could do and I really admire you for that.
Thank you for being our eyes. and for being brave enough to turn your back even though it got you removed.

"Wars are poor chisels for carving out peaceful tomorrows."- Martin Luther King Jr.

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denverbill Donating Member (990 posts) Click to EMail denverbill Click to send private message to denverbill Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:26 PM (ET)
38. I'm proud of you AWD.
It's hard to believe any normal person could possibly call facing the wrong direction without making a sound 'disturbing the peace'. I'm just glad you are home safe and sound, and not secretly arrested and charged with a crime against national security based on secret evidence.

"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of State and corporate power."
Benito Mussolini

Fascism - a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.

MEMBER WANNABE OF THE GRASSY KNOLL SOCIETY

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classics (42 posts) Click to EMail classics Click to send private message to classics Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:27 PM (ET)
39. AWD, thank you ...
... from someone who could only be there in spirit.

Dont Blame Me, I Voted for Kodos.

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deutsey (1314 posts) Click to EMail deutsey Click to send private message to deutsey Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:30 PM (ET)
42. Malloy is going to read AWD's report
Coming up


We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
The Buddha

“Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring those ripples build a current which can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance." –Robert F. Kennedy, South Africa, 1966

Image

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Dr Fate Donating Member (1673 posts) Click to EMail Dr%20Fate Click to send private message to Dr%20Fate Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:30 PM (ET)
43. AWD- May I use your words in an email?
I am making an email complete with links to send to some relatives that I am trying to sway. They are libertarian types but support Bush. I would like to include your words as an eyewitness account from "a friend of mine who was there"....

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_Wayne_ (205 posts) Click to EMail _Wayne_ Click to send private message to _Wayne_ Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:34 PM (ET)
45. Just when I thought I couldn't possibly get more angry...
I want details about OSU administrators and the Bush buses.

Image

I don’t want to waste my time
And become a casualty of society.
I’ll never fall in line
Become a victim of your conformity
And back down.

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5thGenDemocrat Donating Member (2601 posts) Click to EMail 5thGenDemocrat Click to send private message to 5thGenDemocrat Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:34 PM (ET)
46. Across the Field
We've placed cops around the field
To tell you that you ought to cheer
And raise your voices to the skies
Our mighty Fuehrer's here
(RAH RAH RAH!)
Cheer loud enough to wake up the dead
Or we'll come down and break all your heads!
Hail! Heil! The Bund's all here
For a 5 to 4 victory!!

John


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sinookas Donating Member (747 posts) Click to EMail sinookas Click to send private message to sinookas Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:48 PM (ET)
Reply to post #46
59. another tactic?
This just got me thinking. If we happen to be in an audience that is encouraged to cheer the chimp....

Nothing says it can't be a big, hearty, repetetive "HEIL HITLER" for those of us so inclined.

I do like turning our backs to him. Maybe with a copy of the first amendment tacked on our back too.

Just my suggestions.

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americanstranger (276 posts) Click to EMail americanstranger Click to send private message to americanstranger Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:37 PM (ET)
49. I called OSU office of the president (you won't believe this) -
The woman told me that AP got it wrong, and that no announcement about expulsion and arrest was made.

They said AP will be issuing a retraction 'soon'.

We MUST go to the wall with this one! If they get away with it once, they'll do it for the rest of Smirk's term!!

-as


The Question Mark Campaign: Ask the Questions, Demand the Answers!

http://www.blah3.com/doa.html Where is Osama?
http://www.blah3.com/question-mark.html Where is the investigation?
http://www.blah3.com/timeline.html Timeline to 9/11
http://www.blah3.com/fbi.html FBI ignored its own red-flag warning
http://www.blah3.com/what-if.html What if.....?

http://www.blah3.com Blah3.com: Free Speech for the New Century

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deutsey (1314 posts) Click to EMail deutsey Click to send private message to deutsey Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:39 PM (ET)
Reply to post #49
51. And another DU'er is saying AP is retracting the story
No link is provided with it, though.

If this is true, no joking, we're in a fascist state.

We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
The Buddha

“Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring those ripples build a current which can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance." –Robert F. Kennedy, South Africa, 1966

Image

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americanstranger (276 posts) Click to EMail americanstranger Click to send private message to americanstranger Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:45 PM (ET)
Reply to post #51
57. That would be me -

See my post above. I called OSU and spoke to a woman who told me that AP was wrong and would be issuing a retraction.

I asked her point-blank if she was saying AP was wrong, and she said that yes, AP got it wrong. Read me some innocuous press release asking for 'respect'.

I asked if she could put me in touch with the students who planned the protest, and she said they were aware of no demonstrations being planned.

AngryWhiteDemocrat, you have to get in touch with the ACLU and call local news outlets and raise hell.

We all have to raise hell on this one.

-as


The Question Mark Campaign: Ask the Questions, Demand the Answers!

http://www.blah3.com/doa.html Where is Osama?
http://www.blah3.com/question-mark.html Where is the investigation?
http://www.blah3.com/timeline.html Timeline to 9/11
http://www.blah3.com/fbi.html FBI ignored its own red-flag warning
http://www.blah3.com/what-if.html What if.....?

http://www.blah3.com Blah3.com: Free Speech for the New Century

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Maeve Donating Member (3936 posts) Click to EMail Maeve Click to send private message to Maeve Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:43 PM (ET)
Reply to post #49
55. Bull crap. I know someone who graduated today.
He said it was announced at the final rehersal as well--stand and turn, out you go.
The word of the day is "fascism". Learn it well, boys and girls.



Dia idir sinn agus an dúramán.
God be between us and the stupid one.
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freddie57 Donating Member (592 posts) Click to EMail freddie57 Click to send private message to freddie57 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:55 PM (ET)
Reply to post #49
62. AWD you did right
as I sit here I/m fighting back tears. Tears of rage and loss. I am so damn sick of what these "people" have done to our country. I had to make two attempts to read your report it was hard, and I know it was so hard for you to write. I only hope this doesn't get buried in the news tonight, and forgotten by tomorrow. Salute

What we obtain too cheap we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that gives everything its value.
Tom Paine "The American Crisis" 23 Dec 1776


PRETZELISTA!!!!

Go Kerry 04

Proud member of the GRASSY KNOLL SOCIETY

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BlazeDiem (77 posts) Click to EMail BlazeDiem Click to send private message to BlazeDiem Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 11:10 PM (ET)
Reply to post #49
179. A More Powerful Moment of enlightment for America Could Not Have Happened
..had it been a normal peaceful protest..That this was a clear demonstration of how much of our Freedom has been quietly removed, is more powerful than a hundred thousand protesters with a 2 second media shot. Bush regime has censored the media, the radio, our voices, and under the guise of "terrorism threats" has controlled this Great Nation by means of lies and fear tactics. Are we currently living under Nazi Government? What democracy we believe we still have is yet to be determined.
Wake Up America...I hope OSU goes down in history as the beginning of the end to Nazi rule in America. If we don't fight against THIS atrocity then what greater one are we waiting for?
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Shadoobie (386 posts) Click to EMail Shadoobie Click to send private message to Shadoobie Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:40 PM (ET)
52. OMFG
As I read this and heard this on Malloy's show, it brought a tear to my eye.

-Greg

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bowens43 (195 posts) Click to EMail bowens43 Click to send private message to bowens43 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:42 PM (ET)
53. Kiss them good bye
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Amendment XIV

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

"He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but
don't let that fool you. He really is an idiot."
- Groucho Marx


"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my
contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the
spinal cord would fully suffice." -- Albert Einstein

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MarinCoUSA (88 posts) Click to EMail MarinCoUSA Click to send private message to MarinCoUSA Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:42 PM (ET)
54. Thank you AWD for taking your stand. I promise you I will follow when I get a chance.
LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-02 AT 04:43 PM (ET)

Thank you AWD for taking your stand. I promise you I will follow when I get a chance.

- this is bad but it is good,too- the whole world will see starting with this friday's news cycle what a facsist pig we
have in the white house.


WAR IS OVER (IF YOU WANT IT), Eric Alterman altercation
"The whole notion of a “war” against terrorism is a right-
wing ideological construct
designed to further a bunch of
goals that have nothing to do with protecting Americans."

Image

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nostamj Donating Member (454 posts) Click to EMail nostamj Click to send private message to nostamj Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:51 PM (ET)
Reply to post #54
60. ya wanna bet?
the whole world will see starting with this friday's news cycle what a facsist pig we have in the white house.


I don't think so. I'm home with a cold surfing the cable news and today's news cycle is as follows:

GAY/PEDOPHILE PRIESTS
ELIZABETH SMART (and that guy there's searching the planet for)
ROVE'S POWERPOINT PRESENTATION
and until it pulled back late in the day STOCKS DROPPING

maybe.... MAYBE CBS will take notice of the gross violation of civil liberties that occurred at OSU today, but, the odds aren't good.

Bravo to AWD. I pray there are videos and graphics of the suppression.

DISSENT is ESSENTIAL
Member in Good Standing, Grassy Knoll Society (Ground Zero Chapter)

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northzax Donating Member (1669 posts) Click to EMail northzax Click to send private message to northzax Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:45 PM (ET)
56. Hey, AWD!
congratulations! (you did graduate, right?)

let's not let that impressive accomplishment, for the entire class of 2002

i guess you won't be making a contribution to the alumni fund, huh?

___________________

Dieu n'est pas pour les gros bataillons, mais pour ceux qui tirent le mieux. -Voltaire (1750)


MEMBER OF THE GRASSY KNOLL SOCIETY- NATIONAL CAPITAL CHAPTER

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playahata1 Donating Member (1553 posts) Click to EMail playahata1 Click to send private message to playahata1 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:46 PM (ET)
Reply to post #56
58. Northzax.
AWD's DAUGHTER graduated today, not AWD.
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NoFreep4U (60 posts) Click to EMail NoFreep4U Click to send private message to NoFreep4U Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:10 PM (ET)
Reply to post #58
67. That's amazing
Seeing as how AWD's daughter is 3 years old.

AWD, Give 'em hell.

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playahata1 Donating Member (1553 posts) Click to EMail playahata1 Click to send private message to playahata1 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:12 PM (ET)
Reply to post #67
70. I thought she had an older daughter.
I'm confused.
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northzax Donating Member (1669 posts) Click to EMail northzax Click to send private message to northzax Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:10 PM (ET)
Reply to post #58
68. thanks for the correction
LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-02 AT 05:19 PM (ET)

a to whoever graduated...

___________________

Dieu n'est pas pour les gros bataillons, mais pour ceux qui tirent le mieux. -Voltaire (1750)


MEMBER OF THE GRASSY KNOLL SOCIETY- NATIONAL CAPITAL CHAPTER

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playahata1 Donating Member (1553 posts) Click to EMail playahata1 Click to send private message to playahata1 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:20 PM (ET)
Reply to post #68
76. My bad, Northzax.
I knew AWD was going to the ceremony, but I thought she had a child who was graduating, not she herself.

At any rate, however, what has happened saddens and disgusts me to no end.

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AngryWhiteDemocrat (1099 posts) Click to EMail AngryWhiteDemocrat Click to send private message to AngryWhiteDemocrat Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 06:49 PM (ET)
Reply to post #56
119. Set the record......
I'm the OSU grad. My daughter is 3.

And BTW, today in the car on the way home, I asked her what she thought of Bush....."He sucks".

AWD - proudly teaching his child to disrespect illegitimate leaders every day.

Watch what you say, or they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal."
-Supertramp

Proud Card-Carrying Member Of The Grassy Knoll Society

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fed2dneck Donating Member (1580 posts) Click to EMail fed2dneck Click to send private message to fed2dneck Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 07:38 PM (ET)
Reply to post #119
140. I wrote this letter to MSRNC-
And I laced it into them but good---

I thought that in the United States, we had the right to speak freely (re:"Bush challenges college graduates", 6/14), but since Bush was installed in office, he seemed to have taken the law into his own hands, summarily shredding the Constitution.
When I read that graduates were not only prohibited from protesting and heckling him under the threat of expulsion and arrest, they were REQUIRED to face him and "greet him with a loud, thunderous ovation", my anger boiled over. This is the United States of America! This is not Nazi Germany! I for one refuse to be forced to cheer an unelected president who is actively taking away our Constitutional liberties right out from under us. What makes him think he should be kept protected from dissent?
One man was reported to have been expelled from the stadium for silently turning his back on Bush, without uttering a single word, and was threatened with (trumped-up) charges of disturbing the peace--a misdemenor under local jurisdiction--by the Secret Service!
When Clinton was President, he was heckled far worse than was Bush, and no one arrested the heckers. Why does Bush benefit from a double standard, and why do you in the media go out of your way to protect him from dissent and scrutiny instead of doing your jobs to protect the people's right to express ourselves freely without risking arrest for offending thin-skinned, overbearing tyrants ruling over us the people?


If you have nothing to hide, then quit acting like you're hiding something!

Enron has 3000 subsidaries--3001 if you count the GOP!

Would you trust anyone who thinks it's OK to lie to you "under an infinite number of circumstances?" Republicans are counting on it.

Liberty in Mourning - 12/12/2000

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Tigerlily Donating Member (5490 posts) Click to EMail Tigerlily Click to send private message to Tigerlily Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 08:42 AM (ET)
Reply to post #119
214. AngryWhiteDem, I'm confused.
Were you a STUDENT or a family/friend?
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AngryWhiteDemocrat (1099 posts) Click to EMail AngryWhiteDemocrat Click to send private message to AngryWhiteDemocrat Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 10:47 AM (ET)
Reply to post #214
219. A friend
Just a friend.

Oh, baby youuuuuuu. You got what I neeeeeeed. But you say he's just a friend, yeah you say he's just a friend. Ohhhhhh babyyyyyyyyyy.

Watch what you say, or they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal."
-Supertramp

Proud Card-Carrying Member Of The Grassy Knoll Society

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Tigerlily Donating Member (5490 posts) Click to EMail Tigerlily Click to send private message to Tigerlily Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 10:57 AM (ET)
Reply to post #219
223. ???
???
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AngryWhiteDemocrat (1099 posts) Click to EMail AngryWhiteDemocrat Click to send private message to AngryWhiteDemocrat Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 12:38 PM (ET)
Reply to post #223
239. You ust be young....
I was singing "Just A Friend" by Biz Markie, perhaps the worst song of the entire 80s.

Watch what you say, or they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal."
-Supertramp

Proud Card-Carrying Member Of The Grassy Knoll Society

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Tigerlily Donating Member (5490 posts) Click to EMail Tigerlily Click to send private message to Tigerlily Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 12:45 PM (ET)
Reply to post #239
242. Oh no I'm not but...
I was a single Mom raising an unmedicated hyperactive child in the 80's, so that explains that!
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playahata1 Donating Member (1553 posts) Click to EMail playahata1 Click to send private message to playahata1 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 04:04 PM (ET)
Reply to post #119
258. Thanks for clearing this up.
How are you feeling today? Peace.
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dirk Donating Member (3056 posts) Click to EMail dirk Click to send private message to dirk Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 04:54 PM (ET)
61. my god this is sickening
This country is going to hell. It's really happening. Fucking fascists. I don't know what to say, I keep writing things and then backspacing over them. FUCK
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PaDUer (80 posts) Click to EMail PaDUer Click to send private message to PaDUer Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 07:15 PM (ET)
Reply to post #61
128. idea!!.........
Everyone...I've an idea, if it sucks, let me know....There's some cards that you can buy w/ pix with asses on the front, people whatever, or in some of those kinky card shops, Spencer's or wherever...or, if anyone is great w/ a computer and can do a card w/ an ass on the sheet, I say we protest via the mail w/ CARDS showing our asses...mega mass mailing protest?
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heidiho Donating Member (756 posts) Click to EMail heidiho Click to send private message to heidiho Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:00 PM (ET)
64. AWD, You're Already On Buzzflash and MWO
Thank you for going and for reporting - your word is spreading.

I suggest that we all copy AWD's words and put them into e-mail form and SEND THIS MOTHER ALL OVER THE COUNTRY!! Today.

People are not going to hear anything on the mainstream news. The NY Times didn't even mention the protest or the announcements.

Tell Everyone You Know About Today.

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northzax Donating Member (1669 posts) Click to EMail northzax Click to send private message to northzax Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:17 PM (ET)
Reply to post #64
71. and freeperville...
http://freerepublic.com/focus/news/700284/posts

___________________

Dieu n'est pas pour les gros bataillons, mais pour ceux qui tirent le mieux. -Voltaire (1750)


MEMBER OF THE GRASSY KNOLL SOCIETY- NATIONAL CAPITAL CHAPTER

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dirk Donating Member (3056 posts) Click to EMail dirk Click to send private message to dirk Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:45 PM (ET)
Reply to post #71
91. I see a couple of them "get it"
and the rest are mounting idiotic poorly thought out defenses of this behavior (e.g., my rights to see the chimp unobstructed trump your rights to free speech).

Hey freepers, just wait! You morons are on the list somewhere, believe me. If Bush isn't defeated in 2004, you'll eventually be screaming for your rights too. Believe it!

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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1562 posts) Click to EMail IrateCitizen Click to send private message to IrateCitizen Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:44 PM (ET)
Reply to post #64
90. Done and done!
I already started sending it out, and I will send it to everyone on my personal list when I get home.

Peace,
IC

"While there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free."
- Eugene Victor Debs

"Democracy is not a state in which people act like sheep."
- M.K. Gandhi

"The real political debate in this country isn't right versus left, it's top versus bottom. We don't just need the tofu-eaters; we need the snuff-dippers too."
- Jim Hightower

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Kurukami Donating Member (1197 posts) Click to EMail Kurukami Click to send private message to Kurukami Click to view user profile Click to send message via ICQ Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 01:48 PM (ET)
Reply to post #64
281. I just sent a scathing letter to my local paper...
... for not reporting on this. On the other hand, they did have mention of the Washington Post's article on Bush's tacit order to the CIA to try to destabilize Iraq... gotta get the press started somewhere...


History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it merely shouts "Weren't you listening the first time?!?" and lets fly with a club.


_____________________________

(upon being approached by a group seeking funding for a hospice for AIDS patients)
Governor Ashcroft: Then you have my attention. I'm looking for where it is cheapest to send them to die.
Harry Wiggins (group representative): Governor, that's not what we're here for. These are human beings.
Governor Ashcroft: Their pain and suffering is a result of their own misconduct.

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TNOE Donating Member (359 posts) Click to EMail TNOE Click to send private message to TNOE Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:03 PM (ET)
65. ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING.
I also have been waiting all day for this report. This shit is getting ridiculous. I am going to write a letter to the editor right now and desribe what happened, although it won't get printed. I'm sick of this asshole. BTW, last night I was at a local bar for Happy Hour with a few girls from work.. 2 YOUNG girls were sitting sort of caddy corner to me and were mouthing off about Clinton and his blow job - I said you know give me a President who's on the phone with a foreign gov. in the early AM of the morning and getting his business taken care of any damn day of the week. I said 8 years of peace and prosperity and now nothing but war and deficits. The bartender took my glass of wine away (my 3rd) and refused to serve me. I was so pissed. I put the tab on my credit card, left him $0.00 and wrote fuck you on the receipt. Things are getting ridiculous.
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Eloriel (584 posts) Click to EMail Eloriel Click to send private message to Eloriel Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 10:20 PM (ET)
Reply to post #65
172. TNOE
Boy, you really HAVE had a bad day. Sheesh -- adding insult to injury. Sorry, but I'm ROTFL and it's really nice to get to giggle about something today.

Hope tomorrow is better -- for all of us.

Eloriel

Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never had and never will. -- Frederick Douglas

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WilliamPitt Donating Member (8616 posts) Click to EMail WilliamPitt Click to send private message to WilliamPitt Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:09 PM (ET)
66. Incredible
Thank you for the report. Jesus...

Anger is a gift.

Image Image Image
www.WillPitt.com
GKS2002

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WilliamPitt Donating Member (8616 posts) Click to EMail WilliamPitt Click to send private message to WilliamPitt Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:11 PM (ET)
69. PERMISSION???
May I write about this for a Sunday release?

Anger is a gift.

Image Image Image
www.WillPitt.com
GKS2002

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rees (67 posts) Click to EMail rees Click to send private message to rees Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:18 PM (ET)
Reply to post #69
73. W. Pitt
This needs to be sent to everybody who can might use it.

Hope you do not get scooped.

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northzax Donating Member (1669 posts) Click to EMail northzax Click to send private message to northzax Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:23 PM (ET)
Reply to post #73
77. Hell, I hope you DO get scooped
by every major media outlet in the country. nothing against you, will, but I hope this shows up on CBS tonight...

___________________

Dieu n'est pas pour les gros bataillons, mais pour ceux qui tirent le mieux. -Voltaire (1750)


MEMBER OF THE GRASSY KNOLL SOCIETY- NATIONAL CAPITAL CHAPTER

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AngryWhiteDemocrat (1099 posts) Click to EMail AngryWhiteDemocrat Click to send private message to AngryWhiteDemocrat Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 06:57 PM (ET)
Reply to post #69
120. Yes
Go ahead Will....use my words.

Watch what you say, or they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal."
-Supertramp

Proud Card-Carrying Member Of The Grassy Knoll Society

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Kitsune (94 posts) Click to EMail Kitsune Click to send private message to Kitsune Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:18 PM (ET)
72. Unbelievable. Absolutely unbelievable.
He said "We have a long tradition of inviting great men and women to speak at our commencements." I quickly responded "but since we couldn't get one, here's Georgie".

Excellent line, though.


~Kitsune!™ (haiku ninja first class)


Image

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WillyT (984 posts) Click to EMail WillyT Click to send private message to WillyT Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 12:30 PM (ET)
Reply to post #72
236. Yay, AWD...Thank You For Your Report...And GREAT Line...
n\t


Image

Image

PROUD MEMBER OF THE GRASSY KNOLL SOCIETY

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buckleyd2 Donating Member (373 posts) Click to EMail buckleyd2 Click to send private message to buckleyd2 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:19 PM (ET)
74. Need the number to the office of the President at OSU....
They need to know that we're not going to put up with this sh*t, and that we will not forget this. No way are we going to allow them to scrub this heinous incident, and rewrite history.

Thank you, AWD. You are a true patriot, and you've done your country proud.

I'm truly frightened by what's happening. What are we going to do?

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TrogL Donating Member (2618 posts) Click to EMail TrogL Click to send private message to TrogL Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:20 PM (ET)
75. I sent this on to CNN and CBS
I guess I should have asked first, but I did provide links.

I'm hoping to get this on Crossfire and get Dan Rather's attention.
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PaDUer (80 posts) Click to EMail PaDUer Click to send private message to PaDUer Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 07:41 PM (ET)
Reply to post #75
141. Send to....
Drudge....he sometimes posts articles such as this..I've sent him a few times and one WAS posted..
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robbedvoter (2761 posts) Click to EMail robbedvoter Click to send private message to robbedvoter Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:23 PM (ET)
78. Thank you, AWD! We need to spread this story.
I'll send the link to Crossfire, Conason. You should get this account published in as many outlets you can think of: Buzzflash, democrats.com, Ampol, Bartcop - all of them. And then, each of us has to send links to everyone they know - no matter of political persuasion. Spread it around as wide as you can - this is the kind of stuff that grabs people. I am shaking...


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acaudill Donating Member (517 posts) Click to EMail acaudill Click to send private message to acaudill Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:24 PM (ET)
79. Youre a brave person
and my thoughts are with you.

Proud member of the Grassy Knoll Society

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haymaker (455 posts) Click to EMail haymaker Click to send private message to haymaker Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:24 PM (ET)
80. It doesn't matter where this is reported.
You cannot see, hear, or read with your head up your arse. How many people do you folks know with this affliction? Too many for me to count.

This nation is so NASCAR it ain't even funny.

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Ripley (27 posts) Click to EMail Ripley Click to send private message to Ripley Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:29 PM (ET)
Reply to post #80
82. AP website has small video
And still photos...can't see crowd in video, no mention at this site about protesters. However, it does say Bush used about a billion historical figures to write his speech, however in his 18 minute drone, referred to none of them. EVIL ASSHOLE.


http://wire.ap.org/APnews/?SITE=OHCOD&FRONTID=HOME

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flush_bush (135 posts) Click to EMail flush_bush Click to send private message to flush_bush Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 09:34 PM (ET)
Reply to post #82
162. i seriously doubt....
...that chimpy wrote a single word of that speech.

I think it would be a good idea.
- Gandhi, when asked what he thought of Western civilization

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pepsibetterthancoke (34 posts) Click to EMail pepsibetterthancoke Click to send private message to pepsibetterthancoke Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 12:38 PM (ET)
Reply to post #162
238. when has the chimp
every written his own speech? has he written anything at all, ever, for that matter?
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1562 posts) Click to EMail IrateCitizen Click to send private message to IrateCitizen Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:28 PM (ET)
81. Thank you for the account... and your courage
I can't believe these fuckers. It's not 1984, it's 1933... and the brownshirts are ready to go on a rampage.

I'm so fucking pissed right now after reading this. I'm just about ready to fire off a letter to the editor denouncing this obvious abridgement of 1st amendment rights and sign it as an officer in the US Army Reserve. I really don't care if I lose my commission at this point. If I lose it for trying to hold up my oath, then they can take my fucking commission and stick it up their collective asses!

"... to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, from all enemies, foreign and domestic..."

That's what my oath of office said. This fucking band of fascists is the biggest threat to our Constitution that we've ever seen. We need to band together and stop them, before it's too late.

Peace,
IC

"While there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free."
- Eugene Victor Debs

"Democracy is not a state in which people act like sheep."
- M.K. Gandhi

"The real political debate in this country isn't right versus left, it's top versus bottom. We don't just need the tofu-eaters; we need the snuff-dippers too."
- Jim Hightower

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CarbonDate (2 posts) Click to EMail CarbonDate Click to send private message to CarbonDate Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:55 PM (ET)
Reply to post #81
95. You too?
The other airmen around me are in such complete denial it's not even funny. The fact that I can't even speak my mind openly is so frustrating that I don't even want to be in the Air Force, any more.
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Catch22Dem (48 posts) Click to EMail Catch22Dem Click to send private message to Catch22Dem Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 00:47 AM (ET)
Reply to post #95
193. AF Vet
I was in the AF for 8 years. Got out in 2000. Believe me, you'll find your own kind there. I was surrounded by my own people. You just have to draw them out. Maybe what happened today will help you strike up the right conversation.

Stick with it. The Air Force is a great place to be.

I was a 2A071A by the way.

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coalminersdaughter (76 posts) Click to EMail coalminersdaughter Click to send private message to coalminersdaughter Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:31 PM (ET)
83. Thank you, AWD
I greatly admire your work today. This is the typical OSU response to the thinking man. May all the Republican alumni and benefactors of Ohio State have indigestion and be unable to sleep for years to come.

Average cost to educate one child in
Ohio: $7057.
Average cost to house one prisoner
in Ohio: $22,000.

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playahata1 Donating Member (1553 posts) Click to EMail playahata1 Click to send private message to playahata1 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:34 PM (ET)
85. Just got in touch with Bob Fertik at Democrats.com
He asked for a couple of links, and I sent them.
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salin Donating Member (5925 posts) Click to EMail salin Click to send private message to salin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 06:14 PM (ET)
Reply to post #85
102. and you claim...
you're not an 'activist' (that will be great coverage!)

"We expect there to be transparency. People who have something to hide make us nervous...." GWB in Alaska - discussing Iraq.

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rabid_nerd (21 posts) Click to EMail rabid_nerd Click to send private message to rabid_nerd Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 01:20 AM (ET)
Reply to post #85
195. Bob Fertik?? Mr Anti-Democrat??
Bob Fertik called me part of the "Taliban Wing of the Democratic Party" and specifically agreed with Michael Moore about Democrats being "weak and lame-o"..

I'd think ALL of us here have something to say about Democrats being weak and lame-o, don't ya think?

Plus they do such crappy work for candidates' websites if they win it's NOT because of the website, for damned sure!

Here's the original email:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Fertik <mailto:bob@democrats.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 8:35 PM
> To: Herbert Riede
> Cc: Mike2000z@aol.com
> Subject: RE: Mike Moore is leading Greens against Democrats
>
>
> > Agreeing with Democrats being "weak" and "lame-o" is anti-Democrat...
>
> i'm glad you belong to the Taliban wing of the Democratic Party.
>
> i'm afraid you'll also have to expel every liberal Democratic columnist
> (Frank Rich, Molly Ivins) and every member of the progressive caucus, who
> all routinely say the same thing.
>
> you and Zell Miller will form a wonderful party together!
>
>
> Bob Fertik, Managing Partner
> Democrats.com
> bob@democrats.com
> 718-424-7772
>

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cybervigilante (307 posts) Click to EMail cybervigilante Click to send private message to cybervigilante Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 09:45 PM (ET)
Reply to post #195
302. Not to distract from the central issue
but I think he means Democratic Leaders are wussies - at least many of them. I was just talking with Meria Heller and she agrees. They certainly turned into jellyfish after election 2000. We Begged them to challenge it but not one Senator stood up.

Look at Daschle, slavering to pass that pro credit company bankruptcy bill, that will let corporations get a fresh start and evade their debts, but insure families are saddled forever.

Gebhardt, jumping on the lets-distract-them-with-Iraq bandwagon, when any idiot knows all the terrorism comes from our "friends" the Saudis, not Iraq.

And all those brave, brave, brave dems who stood up behind Cynthia McKinney, who has more balls than than every girly-boy dem on Congress. We've tried to talk to our leaders, ask them to grow spines, just pay attention to us. They act like we have the plague when the Republicans hug the most insane activists to their breasts.

They've promised to help the activists. I haven't seen One Bit of help, except a hand out so they can put the same old tired hacks to work to elect the same old tired pro-corporate hacks. The whole friggin party is becoming Zell Millered. I'm not going as far as Darth Nader, but after we dump Bush and elect some Dems, we sure need to clean house in our own party -- note I said After. Right now I guess I have to choke down a gutless and colorless candidate if the dems think that's the way to go, lest they alarm Bid'ness and lose all those contributions.

I can see I'm getting overwrought. I'd better stop

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Junkdrawer Donating Member (227 posts) Click to EMail Junkdrawer Click to send private message to Junkdrawer Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:35 PM (ET)
86. Typical Republican (Fascist) Bullshit
Assume others are as devious as you are and then preempt their actions. So if you sent paid disrupters to campus speeches, send SS troopers to enforce "appropriate" responses. I believe psychologists call it projection. If you listen to Limbaugh, you hear it all the time. (“Liberals just want to control our every action… Liberals want to remove free speech…”)

Here's what they gave Clinton:
<http://www.usatoday.com/elect/ep/epd/epdc097.htm>

P.S.:

Here’s hoping it backfires in a big way. Can you say “teach-ins”.

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DrWeird (166 posts) Click to EMail DrWeird Click to send private message to DrWeird Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:37 PM (ET)
88. Sounds familiar
Wasn't there a protest in the Portland area a while back where moles from the Bush camp lied to the protestors about what was happening and the protestors never got to where they would be?

Because this expulsion/arrest thing sounds like such a silly lie, only designed to stop people from protesting. Sounds like the same kind of thing.

Image

MY HAIR DRYER!

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ribofunk Donating Member (809 posts) Click to EMail ribofunk Click to send private message to ribofunk Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:38 PM (ET)
89. You'll be Proud of this your entire life
LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-02 AT 05:44 PM (ET)

Thank you for reporting.

It's growing, just like the Vietnam protests attracted larger and larger crowds even when they were going unreported on the news. I like the idea of turning your back, too. Original and impossible to criticize.

On edit: BTW, several of the freeper posters seemed to agree that the policemen were out of line. Glad to see that.

Jack Neefus
College Park, MD
Proud Member of
Image

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altemail (2 posts) Click to EMail altemail Click to send private message to altemail Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 06:00 PM (ET)
Reply to post #89
97. BTW, several of the freeper posters seemed to agree ...
BTW, several of the freeper posters seemed to agree that the policemen were out of line. Glad to see that.

You shouldn't be surprised, Freepers respect freedom and wouldn't deny constitutional rights even to ... well you know.

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alg0912 Donating Member (400 posts) Click to EMail alg0912 Click to send private message to alg0912 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 06:08 PM (ET)
Reply to post #97
99. ...not all freepers respect freedom.
Welcome to the DU, Altemail. One thing you'll notice here is a unanimous respect for the Bill of Rights. What happened to AngryWhiteDemocrat today was a blatant usurpation of the First Amendment. At FreeRepublic, I'm seeing quite a few posts (the majority, actually) that advocate arrest, beatings and/or death for those involved in the non-violent, non-verbal protest. Those freepers are just plain evil and most un-American.
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TrogL Donating Member (2618 posts) Click to EMail TrogL Click to send private message to TrogL Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:45 PM (ET)
92. On Mike Malloy live 15:46 MDT
http://www.ieamericaradio.com/listen.asp click Microsoft
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TrogL Donating Member (2618 posts) Click to EMail TrogL Click to send private message to TrogL Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:51 PM (ET)
Reply to post #92
94. Finished now
Good DU shoutout at the end.
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0rganism Donating Member (2260 posts) Click to EMail 0rganism Click to send private message to 0rganism Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 05:49 PM (ET)
93. I AM FURIOUS, but I am greatful AWD
If I was pissed before, I do not even have words to describe how I feel reading your post. No more benefit of the doubt, no more free rides, nothing. If we cannot stand up and turn around at a presentation, then the constitution has officially been suspended. I consider this to be an anullment of my social contract.

Henceforth, non servium is my motto.

We put the USA in Usama!http://www.worldwar3report.com


And we're marching to Bastille DayMy blood is bruised and borrowed.
La guillotine will claim her bloody prizeYou thieving bastards.
Sing, o choirs of cacophony You have turned my blood cold and bitter,
The king has kneeled, to let his kingdom rise Beat my compassion black and blue.
Rush, Bastille DayTool, Ticks And Leeches

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trof (1 posts) Click to EMail trof Click to send private message to trof Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 06:09 PM (ET)
100. I am sickened
I am 60 and a veteran. (trof=the retired old fa_t) Not exactly your standard issue bleeding-heart-liberal. Having said that...I know what facisism is. I've seen the methods and results first hand. The actions of the OSU administration and the police sicken me.
I have risked my life for my country.
I have fought and bled for my country.
This is no longer the country I served.
trof
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alg0912 Donating Member (400 posts) Click to EMail alg0912 Click to send private message to alg0912 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 06:14 PM (ET)
Reply to post #100
103. Welcome to the DU trof!
I share your frustration. This was a slap in the face to everyone, including those who are serving or have served in our armed forces.

Men have fought and died for our freedoms. This is an insult to them all. How @#$%& dare they?

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GinaMaria Donating Member (1965 posts) Click to EMail GinaMaria Click to send private message to GinaMaria Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 06:18 PM (ET)
Reply to post #100
107. Welcome trof
Glad you are here. Thank you for your service and dedication to our country.

Bush Knew

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RichM Donating Member (1117 posts) Click to EMail RichM Click to send private message to RichM Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 06:34 PM (ET)
Reply to post #100
114. What a magnificent first post, trof!! If any of your future remarks
are half as potent as this one, it's going to be great having your voice in the DU community!! Welcome - & Happy Flag Day!
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ConcernedAmerican (151 posts) Click to EMail ConcernedAmerican Click to send private message to ConcernedAmerican Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 10:39 PM (ET)
Reply to post #100
176. This is no longer the country I served.
LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-02 AT 10:44 PM (ET)

This is no longer the country any of us knew before Nov. 2000 (Election night). What has happened since then is hard to believe-----yest, we see more and evidence of just how serious and ugly a situation this is. The Pess is obviously comprimised. We no longer have a REALLY FREE PRESS. The same can be said for the Democrats. They seem to be all in hiding. What is really amazing is the total willingness of others to accept the directions of the Coup. in this case we had school officials, local police and many other willing accomplises in actions that you would only expect in a Dictatorship. The Bill of Rights and Constitution appear to be easily forgotten. How many fought for thr Freedoms of Americans---gave their lives? Is it all to be lost so easily. Yes, it is sickening, shocking but it is becoming almost expected. Nobody with the power to call a news conference, like a group of Democratic Leaders has, so far, found the courage to STAND TALL and take this to the MEDIA. This is what must be done. I am 57 and though I can tell you we made a difference in the 60's, it did take time for the majority to OPEN THEIR EYES. We don't have that much time here. We are fast becoming gone as the America we knew. The rest of the world sees this much better than most Americans. We need action and we need it fast. There is sooooo much that the Democrats can take to open this News Conference and get the ball rolling. I hope they do it tomorrow. I'm sick of turning on the Major News TV channels waiting to here all the charges against Bush, only to get "filler", barges, briges, Robert Blake, the Church, Chandra, etc........The Press is lost. It's up to the DEMs. Any Patriots living?

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WillyT (984 posts) Click to EMail WillyT Click to send private message to WillyT Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 12:50 PM (ET)
Reply to post #100
243. Welcome trof...To The DU...Great Post !!!
My old man fought for the Marines in both WWII and Korea. He was a liberal\democrat\journalist after the wars. He's been dead since '75 and I miss him dearly.

But I'm glad he's not around to see this. THIS is NOT what he fought for!!!

Image

Image

PROUD MEMBER OF THE GRASSY KNOLL SOCIETY

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bo44 (666 posts) Click to EMail bo44 Click to send private message to bo44 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 06:10 PM (ET)
101. I am stunned. The hell with bunnypants. To you AE
LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-02 AT 06:11 PM (ET)

Damn return key

I am proud of you AWD. YOU DID WELLLAST EDITED ON Jun-14-02 AT 06:10 PM (ET)


He was walking down the street. Not
really the street, but the sidewalk.
And not really walking, but striding
these long strides where only his
toes touch the ground while his arms
swing militarily. He was toewalking
his ass down the sidewalk to
nowhere with this intense scrunch to
his face. The scrunchy look of
somebody searching for answers to
questions. Questions that need to be
answered but for which there is no
sane way to ask them. Did he know?
Should I tell him? Or should we wait
for the whore?

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xchrom Donating Member (1515 posts) Click to EMail xchrom Click to send private message to xchrom Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 06:16 PM (ET)
Reply to post #101
104. well done
and none of that should have happened! outrageous.
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Q Donating Member (2743 posts) Click to EMail Q Click to send private message to Q Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 06:18 PM (ET)
Reply to post #104
105. - - - - - !
altemail : "On the other hand, all of the idiots who are screaming about fascism seem to forget herr clintler's reign. People were arrested and prosecuted for expressing their views directly to clintler at a rally."


- I resent that you used 'herr' in addressing Bill Clinton. He's a better man and was a better president than Chimp boy could ever dream of being.

- Perhaps you didn't see the hypocrisy in your statement? At least dissenting opinions used to be allowed close enough to 'yell' directly at the president. Now protesters are herded like cattle into 'zones' where the president and the 'free press' doesn't have to recognize them.

- Clinton didn't have to have people bussed in to prop up his image. At least with Clinton...what you saw is what you got.

- Once again we hear the 'argument' that GOPers and Dems...Clinton and Bush...are just alike. Do you really think Clinton's SS would have threatened to arrest citizens who simply turned their BACK on him? Hell, no. Senior citizens have been arrested at Bush PUBLIC functions for simply holding up (small) anti-Bush instead of pro-Bush signs.

- If you can't see that things have changed for the worse and that the Bill of Rights has been suspended under 'herr' Bush...then nothing will convince you of the truth.

- Thanks, AWD. You make us proud.


THEY TRADED OUR FREEDOM
FOR SECURITY AND NOW WE
HAVE NEITHER - Q

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robbedvoter (2761 posts) Click to EMail robbedvoter Click to send private message to robbedvoter Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 06:31 PM (ET)
Reply to post #105
112. Precisely! Once again- Clinton at OSU - no threats, expulsions
http://www.usatoday.com/elect/ep/epd/epdc097.htm

There could be a recession or an environmental catastrophe that could
afford a greater opportunity if
the Greens are ready. "
Nader to LA Times, May 6, 2001


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DemEx_pat Donating Member (1772 posts) Click to EMail DemEx_pat Click to send private message to DemEx_pat Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 06:28 PM (ET)
108. Sickeningly sad
but proud of you AngryWhite Democrat!

Only thing I want to add is to please watch out for your precious daughter's best interests as well.....
an absent parent (in jail) is not what she needs..


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tcmits (2 posts) Click to EMail tcmits Click to send private message to tcmits Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 07:18 PM (ET)
Reply to post #108
131. Discretion, the better part of Valor.
"Only thing I want to add is to please watch out for your precious daughter's best interests as well..... an absent parent (in jail) is not what she needs.."

As I read this I'm ashamed to say that I thought of how the arrest of a mother with a 3 yr old in tow, and the subsequent police report (a public document) would have gone a long way towards adding veracity to your report. It might also have at least caught the attention of the local media.

In any event, good work AWD!

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AngryWhiteDemocrat (1099 posts) Click to EMail AngryWhiteDemocrat Click to send private message to AngryWhiteDemocrat Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 07:30 PM (ET)
Reply to post #108
137. Which is....
Only thing I want to add is to please watch out for your precious daughter's best interests as well.....
an absent parent (in jail) is not what she needs..

Which is exactly why I left and made no attempt to stay. She may be the biggest reason that I fight for what I think is right, but she is also the beautiful little girl that lets me know when to play it safe.

Watch what you say, or they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal."
-Supertramp

Proud Card-Carrying Member Of The Grassy Knoll Society

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RationalAnarchist (24 posts) Click to EMail RationalAnarchist Click to send private message to RationalAnarchist Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 06:28 PM (ET)
109. The Time for Active Resistance has Come
We must make it clear that this government exists by the consent of the governed. Active resistance is necessary. We should consider calling for a General Strike. Bush must be put on notice that he cannot take the existance of his government for granted. This is a government of the people and for the people - not a tin pot dictatorship for blue nosed fascists.
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ramblin_dave (61 posts) Click to EMail ramblin_dave Click to send private message to ramblin_dave Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 06:35 PM (ET)
115. How many were escorted out for turning their backs?
Was anyone actually arrested?

Even one is too many and the threats by officials not to protest are over the top.

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DumpGump Donating Member (131 posts) Click to EMail DumpGump Click to send private message to DumpGump Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 06:36 PM (ET)
116. I haven't..
been a true activist since the '70's. It is now time to start anew. I will not stand for this. They can lock me up, kill me, I don't care. I will not stand for this.
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psychlist1972 (4 posts) Click to EMail psychlist1972 Click to send private message to psychlist1972 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 07:09 PM (ET)
Reply to post #116
123. So what do you intend to do, besides post to a forum?
>>I haven't been a true activist since the '70's. It is now time to start anew. I will not stand for this. They can lock me up, kill me, I don't care. I will not stand for this. <<

So what do you plan to do?

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alg0912 Donating Member (400 posts) Click to EMail alg0912 Click to send private message to alg0912 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 07:13 PM (ET)
Reply to post #123
125. Good for you, DumpGump!
...and Welcome to the DU, psychlist1972. Posting on a message board is just one way to get involved. There's nothing more powerful than the free exchange of ideas!!!
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psychlist1972 (4 posts) Click to EMail psychlist1972 Click to send private message to psychlist1972 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 07:19 PM (ET)
Reply to post #125
133. Thanks
However, all too often it ends on a forum. Ideas are great, but when they are confined to a forum, it just looks like a bunch of "whaco liberals" to the rest of the world.

I've read a lot of "I'm gonna"s and "Just wait until"s in reading this and the other thread on this subject.

If this story is true, the media should pick it up. If it doesn't do that on it's own, the people directly involved should make *sure* it gets picked up and widely distributed through conventional channels.

If that is not done, then this whole thing will blow over in a couple weeks and that will be the end of it.

Pete

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Tigerlily Donating Member (5490 posts) Click to EMail Tigerlily Click to send private message to Tigerlily Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 06:57 AM (ET)
Reply to post #133
206. And what have you done, Pete?
Too many newbies encouraging certain behaviors and/or confessions on this thread.
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PaDUer (80 posts) Click to EMail PaDUer Click to send private message to PaDUer Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 07:50 PM (ET)
Reply to post #123
143. What does it cost...
to get the swedes here to drop their pants as they did when he was there? What about checking this out, finding out who those activists were?? I'm certain they can be found via a search for their media sites and their boards.
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DEMActivist (137 posts) Click to EMail DEMActivist Click to send private message to DEMActivist Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 08:25 PM (ET)
Reply to post #123
148. So what do you plan to do?
I plan to participate in the national Turn Your Back on Bush protest in Washington, DC which is being planned and organized as we type.

Will you?

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Kurukami Donating Member (1197 posts) Click to EMail Kurukami Click to send private message to Kurukami Click to view user profile Click to send message via ICQ Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 02:16 PM (ET)
Reply to post #123
282. Me personally?
Write letters to newspapers. Go to demonstrations and marches. Call up talk radio and express my opinion. Stand with others in asserting our Constitutional rights, and be willing to be arrested (even if on trumped-up charges) in order to make a political point about the dangerous direction the country is taking.

I believe that everyone should try to do at least some of the same.


History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it merely shouts "Weren't you listening the first time?!?" and lets fly with a club.


_____________________________

(upon being approached by a group seeking funding for a hospice for AIDS patients)
Governor Ashcroft: Then you have my attention. I'm looking for where it is cheapest to send them to die.
Harry Wiggins (group representative): Governor, that's not what we're here for. These are human beings.
Governor Ashcroft: Their pain and suffering is a result of their own misconduct.

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Lisa Donating Member (2901 posts) Click to EMail Lisa Click to send private message to Lisa Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 06:48 PM (ET)
118. "but since we couldn't get one, here's Georgie"

I didn't realize it was possible for me to be a) furious and b) laughing uproariously, at the same time!

Thanks for the report, AWD. And for all the things you did.


How long before the Bushies understand that "respect" is NOT something that you get handed to you automatically, but something that must be earned? By quashing such peaceful opposition (at a UNIVERSITY, no less, which is supposed to be where people learn how to think for themselves), it only showed how ridiculous and vain they are.

If the OSU administration chooses to get snippy about this, I hope that members of other academic communities remind them that there is a long and noble tradition (in fact, a responsibility) regarding protest. I know that there will likely be tut-tutting letters in the paper, about "rude ungrateful students", "shaming the school", "unpatriotic", and "what will people think?" -- but I for one am very proud of you and your colleagues. Thank you again!

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psychlist1972 (4 posts) Click to EMail psychlist1972 Click to send private message to psychlist1972 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 07:13 PM (ET)
126. No offense, but so far we only have your word on this
None of the news agencies (national or local) have picked up on the arrests. Is there anyone else who can corroborate this?

The above post was sent to me via email. Having experienced first hand how half-truths and outright lies can get the same level of exposure on the internet as truth, I've become quite a skeptic.

Did anyone get any pictures of people being arrested? Does anyone have a link that says anything about people being bussed in or arrested?

Pete (not a bush fan)

PS. Godwin's law is supposed to end a thread, not start it

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AngryWhiteDemocrat (1099 posts) Click to EMail AngryWhiteDemocrat Click to send private message to AngryWhiteDemocrat Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 07:34 PM (ET)
Reply to post #126
139. I don't mind
You don't know me....you don't have any reason to believe me.

Check out www.turnyourbackonbush.com and see the mention (and the e-mail address) of the man who threatened the students with expulsion and arrest.

As far as I know, nobody was arrested.

Watch what you say, or they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal."
-Supertramp

Proud Card-Carrying Member Of The Grassy Knoll Society

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fed2dneck Donating Member (1580 posts) Click to EMail fed2dneck Click to send private message to fed2dneck Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 02:33 PM (ET)
Reply to post #139
252. I'd sue OSU, Richard Hollingsworth, and Bush if I were you
It's illegal for an arm of the state to suppress non-violent, non-disruptive protest in order to make a statement. If the Republicans in Congress could remain silent while Clinton delivered his State of the Union speeches without risking legal actions, you should have been able to turn you back on Bush silently without facing legal consequences. What makes Hollingsworth and Bush think they can force all students present to flatter Bush's fragile ego by requiring them to greet him with a thunderous ovation--or else face arrest?! Not in my country they won't!
From the appearance of the picture in turnyourbackonbush.com, a back turned on Bush is a form of protest which is not in the least bit disruptive. The threat of expulsion, denial of diploma, and arrest is a coercive scare tactic which smacks of un-American, mindless authoritarianism, which young--and not-so-young--Americans do not take well to (Americans are not accustomed to taking orders without good reason).
You have grounds for a First Amendment lawsuit, charging Ohio State University, Richard A. Hollingsworth, and George W. Bush with violating your First Amendment rights of freedom of speech and right peacefully to assemble. I suggest you find yourself a good lawyer and sue the university--and Bush--for every cent they're worth. You ought to be a rich man in the end.

If you have nothing to hide, then quit acting like you're hiding something!

Enron has 3000 subsidaries--3001 if you count the GOP!

Would you trust anyone who thinks it's OK to lie to you "under an infinite number of circumstances?" Republicans are counting on it.

Liberty in Mourning - 12/12/2000

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Kurukami Donating Member (1197 posts) Click to EMail Kurukami Click to send private message to Kurukami Click to view user profile Click to send message via ICQ Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 02:42 PM (ET)
Reply to post #126
283. Well, the AP has an article on it.
At least for the moment, it's up on MSNBC's site, here:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/767008.asp?0na=x230D991

However, supposedly the AP is being pressured into making a retraction. Take a look at the story now -- and if it suddenly gets altered, the truth should be apparent.


History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it merely shouts "Weren't you listening the first time?!?" and lets fly with a club.


_____________________________

(upon being approached by a group seeking funding for a hospice for AIDS patients)
Governor Ashcroft: Then you have my attention. I'm looking for where it is cheapest to send them to die.
Harry Wiggins (group representative): Governor, that's not what we're here for. These are human beings.
Governor Ashcroft: Their pain and suffering is a result of their own misconduct.

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cosmicdot (112 posts) Click to EMail cosmicdot Click to send private message to cosmicdot Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 07:14 PM (ET)
127. register a protest complaint
tashjian.1@osu.edu

email, write, call to protest about Ohio State Fascism.

Civil rights were violated.

I hope someone brings a lawsuit against the university, the state, and all parties responsible. When it comes to our liberties, there is no liability limitation.

Ohio State University - University Relations
Lee Tashjian, Vice President
111 Bricker Hall
190 North Oval Mall
Columbus, OH 43210
(614) 292-4373

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revcarol Donating Member (3934 posts) Click to EMail revcarol Click to send private message to revcarol Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 07:20 PM (ET)
Reply to post #127
134. OSU alums...
Contact the members of the Board of Regents. Tell them no more contributions until .....apology....admission of guilt....change in policy....fill in the blanks here....
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amelia (61 posts) Click to EMail amelia Click to send private message to amelia Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 08:01 PM (ET)
Reply to post #127
145. I called the number at OSU that you gave
Thanks for the VP number at OSU. I called and left a message of protest concerning the events of Naziism that occurred today at graduation. Good for you AWD, I hope there are a whole lot more people like you, out there.

START CALLING THE NUMBERS HERE ON THIS BOARD AND YOUR LOCAL STATIONS AND NEWSPAPERS EVERYONE!

No one can hear your complaints from this message board. You have to take the first step, and start getting in people's faces about stuff like this. If you want a revolution, then you have to be the one to start it.

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jsaro Donating Member (1125 posts) Click to EMail jsaro Click to send private message to jsaro Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 07:17 PM (ET)
129. The OSU President should resign immediately for this outrage
LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-02 AT 07:40 PM (ET)

The announcement that students would be EXPELLED for turning their backs during a speech at their graduation is an outrage beyond belief. And the President's office claims that the announcement was never made? That fact can be established by interviewing people who were there, I'm sure hundreds of them were taking videos at the time. Every DUer in Ohio should scream bloody murder until that jerkwad comes on TV and lies, and them someone can prove he's lying. He should resign in shame for being the liar that he is.
(On edit, changed "Oklahoma" to "Ohio" -- d'oh!)

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

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alg0912 Donating Member (400 posts) Click to EMail alg0912 Click to send private message to alg0912 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 07:18 PM (ET)
Reply to post #129
130. ooops... it's Ohio State...
the other OSU
:wink:
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jsaro Donating Member (1125 posts) Click to EMail jsaro Click to send private message to jsaro Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 07:42 PM (ET)
Reply to post #130
142. Oooooops is right!
Thanks, I changed it. I'm so mad I can't do geography good!!!

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

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notmypresident (271 posts) Click to EMail notmypresident Click to send private message to notmypresident Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 08:37 PM (ET)
Reply to post #129
154. president is leaving
Just wish I was talking about Bush, but the president of OSU was already stepping down.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (227 posts) Click to EMail Junkdrawer Click to send private message to Junkdrawer Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 07:26 PM (ET)
135. You just never know what will precipitate a reaction
> Bush & Co. may have allowed 3000+ people die
murmur murmur murmur

> Bush & Co. rescind no-first-strike Nuke Ban
murmur murmur murmur

> Bush & Co. rescind Koyoto Treaty
murmur murmur murmur

> Ashcroft suspends 4th Amendment
murmur murmur murmur

> Ashcroft suspends 5th Amendment
murmur murmur murmur

> ASHCROFT SUSPENDS 6th AMENDMENT
murmur murmur murmur

>OSU demands cheers for the President
EXPLOSIONS OF OUTRAGE, PROTEST

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tcmits (2 posts) Click to EMail tcmits Click to send private message to tcmits Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 07:29 PM (ET)
136. AP is already rewriting it's story
check the difference between this account from 11 am ET:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020614/ap_to_po/bush_7

and this one from 2 pm ET:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=533&533&e=11&u=/ap/20020614/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_13

You'll note that any reference to the threatened 'expulsion and arrest' has been eliminated.

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Cronus (582 posts) Click to EMail Cronus Click to send private message to Cronus Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 09:17 PM (ET)
Reply to post #136
160. Two different authors on these two articles
Thought you might like to know. AP has a lot of controbutors and each has their own slant. I don't see anything to indicate whitewashing here.

Visit My Favorite Web Sites
Cronus Connection —http://cronus.com/ Progressive buttons — http://brainbuttons.com/
Great Indie Music — http://brainscream.com/ Political Satire —http://bushspeaks.com/

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Kurukami Donating Member (1197 posts) Click to EMail Kurukami Click to send private message to Kurukami Click to view user profile Click to send message via ICQ Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 02:59 PM (ET)
Reply to post #136
284. Actually, it's still there in some form...
Look about a quarter of the way down on the second article:

"To Ohio State graduates who obeyed an announcer's warning against heckling and greeted Bush with hearty cheers, the president recalled a Tuesday morning last fall that was as brilliantly sunny as the skies over Ohio Stadium."

No direct mention of the threat, but there's still some mention of a warning. Still, there already seems to be some clampdown, true....


History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it merely shouts "Weren't you listening the first time?!?" and lets fly with a club.


_____________________________

(upon being approached by a group seeking funding for a hospice for AIDS patients)
Governor Ashcroft: Then you have my attention. I'm looking for where it is cheapest to send them to die.
Harry Wiggins (group representative): Governor, that's not what we're here for. These are human beings.
Governor Ashcroft: Their pain and suffering is a result of their own misconduct.

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hippiegranny Donating Member (570 posts) Click to EMail hippiegranny Click to send private message to hippiegranny Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 07:31 PM (ET)
138. you are one of the lead stories over at buzzflash.com
what a story... and thank you for sharing it. i hope this news spreads like a colorado wildfire.

"Love it or leave it" is a coward's slogan. That's what I think.
I think a more honorable slogan is "Love it and stay,"
"Love it and get it right," "Love it and never shut up."
-Barbara Kingsolver

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ruocal (5 posts) Click to EMail ruocal Click to send private message to ruocal Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 08:01 PM (ET)
144. Irony: Jesse Owen Memorial
LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-02 AT 08:06 PM (ET)

I apologize if this point has already been made, but I haven't had time to read all the posts.

The irony of this incident occurring on a campus that has a Jesse Owens memorial is incredible!

To order people to behave and respond in a specific manner smacks of the Munich Olympics. Then to carry through on expelling people for standing in quiet protest is horrifying!

Perhaps we should take away from the Big Brother antics of the OSU brass the memory of Jesse Owens and his remarkable bravery. It is time for all of us to stand up to oppression and take back our rights!

The calendar may say "2002" but, in reality, it IS 1984.

P.S.: This occurred on the campus of a PUBLIC university. I wonder what the ACLU would think of this? Certainly, the university officials can request that people behave in a certain way. But, to threaten expulsion & arrest--and carry through on it--if anyone stepped out of line seems more than just a *small* thing.

Does anyone have any knowledge regarding the (il)legal aspects of the actions endorsed and taken by OSU's representatives?

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Seatreaty (251 posts) Click to EMail Seatreaty Click to send private message to Seatreaty Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 08:01 PM (ET)
146. Letter to OSU president, William E. Kerwan
Sir,

Today I had the honor to read about Mr. Bush (whom I consciously do not award the title 'President') speaking at the Ohio State commencement and the stifling and opression of any (proper) dissent against Mr. Bush with the threat of expulsion and the denial of graduation that went with it. Above all, students and other paticipants were virtually forced, blackmailed, into cheering "thunderously" for Mr. Bush.
Also today I had the chance to read an eyewitness account of what happened as well as accounts of denial by a spokeswoman of YOUR office, both of the stifling of dissent and the flagrant urging to cheer.
As a Global Citizen I must say I am absolutely disgusted with these actions.
In my opinion this goes well beyond preserving peace and calm within a gathered crowd. These actions clearly lay out the fundaments of a totalitarian, dare I say dictatorial, manner of crowdcontrol. I smell fascism in the air and I am miles and miles away.
You, Sir, as the President of Ohio State University should know that an university is a place of education. Not only education from books, but more important, also education on logic and thought..., independent thought. To learn to think for yourself and act for yourself still is, as I see it, one of the basic guidelines of an university education. And surely where education and independent thought are exercised, politics can never be far away, especially on occasions such as this.
You are free to choose your political affiliation and ideology, so are the attending students, the attending relatives of students and all other participants. You may cheer Bush, others may not!
Therefore, Sir, I can do no else than to conclude that you, as President of Ohio State University holding direct responsibility, did not only suppress the right to dissent and forcibly demanded that people, even if unwilling, cheered "thunderously" for Mr. Bush, but you also consciously betrayed the fundaments on which an university education is based. And deny it afterwards.

For me, as I am sure for many others as well, you are a disgrace to your profession.


A concerned Global Citizen.

william.kirwan@admin.ohio-state.edu


"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: that is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." John Kenneth Galbraith

http://www.resistance.eu.com/

“There can be no really pervasive system of oppression... without the consent of the oppressed” (Florynce R. Kennedy)


"Wear your grudge like a crown of negativity.
Calculate what we will or will not tolerate.
Desperate to control all and everything.
Unable to forgive your scarlet lettermen." TOOL (The Grudge)

"Cold silence has a tendency to atrophy any sense of compassion." TOOL (schism)

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flush_bush (135 posts) Click to EMail flush_bush Click to send private message to flush_bush Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 09:48 PM (ET)
Reply to post #146
166. I sniff fascism....
OSU grads got a good taste of it today.

I think it would be a good idea.
- Gandhi, when asked what he thought of Western civilization

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Junkdrawer Donating Member (227 posts) Click to EMail Junkdrawer Click to send private message to Junkdrawer Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 09:54 PM (ET)
Reply to post #146
168. Earlier this year....
<Rove>
The President will speak at one, maybe two commencements this year and he is thinking about Ohio State.

<Kerwan>
I'm honored. (Oh boy, Oh boy, Oh boy) And I'm sure the students, parents and alumni of Ohio State will be honored (Oh boy $$$, Oh boy $$$, Oh boy $$$).

<Rove>
Now, we all want this to be an occasion that every will remember fondly.

<Kerwan>
Absolutely Mr. Rove. (Oh boy, Oh boy, Oh boy) I’m sure that you will have a hard time finding more enthusiastic supporters of the President than the students and parents of Ohio State. (Oh boy, Oh boy, Oh boy)

LATER…

<Rove>
Our advance men have heard that there is a protest scheduled for the President’s commencements speech.

<Kerwan>
I've heard of that. (Oh shit, Oh shit, Oh shit) But don’t worry, the staff here at Ohio State will insure that there will be no interruptions to the President’s speech. (Oh shit, Oh shit, Oh shit)

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BJ (23 posts) Click to EMail BJ Click to send private message to BJ Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 08:37 PM (ET)
153. Thank you, AWD, for having the guts to do the right thing!
Back in the day, if LBJ or Nixon would have shown up graduates would have risked explusion and arrest, even though Ohio State was not a hotbed of anti-war activism.

Is getting an entry-level management position at Wal-Mart more important than standing up for principle?

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Susang Donating Member (1097 posts) Click to EMail Susang Click to send private message to Susang Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 08:41 PM (ET)
156. Glad you're okay AWD!
I had a really bad gut feeling about that protest. There have been too few protests in general over the last nine months and now I think we have some idea why. Dissent is obviously not tolerated anymore in the land of the free.

And if you complain once more
You'll meet an army of me
-Bjork

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Nancy Waterman Donating Member (612 posts) Click to EMail Nancy%20Waterman Click to send private message to Nancy%20Waterman Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 09:51 PM (ET)
Reply to post #156
167. It occurs to me that it was at Kent Sate, also in Ohio,
that 4 students were shot and killed at an anti-war demonstration. I believe it was 1969 or 1970. That event sparked an eruption at campuses all over the country. If this doesn't wake people up, something like that might be next.
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cosmicdot (112 posts) Click to EMail cosmicdot Click to send private message to cosmicdot Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 11:06 AM (ET)
Reply to post #167
226. tin soldiers and Nixon coming
the OSU account was sent to various members of the Senate, House, journalists, etc.; with the following adder:

Dear Addressees:

Regardless of what political party one identifies with, Founding Principles are at stake. Our Constitution has been violated; and impeachment proceedings should commence immediately.

Are you going to do your patriotic duty as an American, and censure George Bush and his administration; the State of Ohio; Ohio State University; and, others who allowed Freedom of Speech to be denied as if we were living under Nazi Germany?

Kenneth Morgan
Scottsdale, Arizona
````````````````````````
Deja Vu by Crosby, Stills, and Nash

"If I had ever been here before I would probably know just what to do
Don't you?
If I had ever been here before on another time around the wheel
I would probably know just how to deal
With all of you.
And I feel
Like I've been here before
Feel
Like I've been here before
And you know
It makes me wonder
What's going on under the ground

Do you know?
Don't you wonder?
What's going on down under you.

We have all been here before
We have all been here before
We have all been here before
We have all been here before"
````````````````````````````````````
"There is a discrimination in this world and slavery and slaughter and starvation. Governments repress their people; and millions are trapped in poverty while the nation grows rich; and wealth is lavished on armaments everywhere...

"...Few will have the greatness to bend history itself, but each of us can work to change a small portion of events, and in the total of all those acts will be written the history of this generation. It is from numberless diverse acts of courage and belief that human history is shaped. Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes
out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring, those ripples build a current that can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance...

"...Few are willing to brave the disapproval of their fellows, the censure of their colleagues, the wrath of their society. Moral courage is a rarer commodity than bravery in battle or great intelligence. Yet it is the one essential, vital quality for those who seek to change a world that yields most painfully to change. And I believe that in this generation those with
the courage to enter the moral conflict will find themselves with companions in every corner of the globe...

"The future does not belong to those who are content with today, apathetic toward common problems and their fellow man alike, timid and fearful in the face of new ideas and bold projects. Rather it will belong to those who can blend vision, reason and courage in a personal commitment to the ideals and great enterprises of American Society...". - Bobby Kennedy
`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
"Tin soldiers and Nixon coming
We're finally on our own

This summer I hear the drumming

Four dead in Ohio" - Neil Young

Image

For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
September 14, 2001

Declaration of National Emergency by Reason Of Certain Terrorist Attacks By the President of the United States of America

A Proclamation

A national emergency exists by reason of the terrorist attacks at the World Trade Center, New York, New York, and the Pentagon, and the continuing and immediate threat of further attacks on the United States.

NOW, THEREFORE, I, GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States, I hereby declare that the national emergency has existed since September 11, 2001, and, pursuant to the National Emergencies Act (50 U.S.C. 1601 et seq.), I intend to utilize the following statutes: sections 123, 123a, 527, 2201(c), 12006, and 12302
of title 10, United States Code, and sections 331, 359, and 367 of title 14, United States Code.

This proclamation immediately shall be published in the Federal Register or disseminated through the Emergency Federal Register, and transmitted to the Congress.

This proclamation is not intended to create any right or benefit, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law by a party against the United States, its agencies, its officers, or any person.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this fourteenth day of September, in the year of our Lord two thousand one, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and twenty-sixth.

GEORGE W. BUSH
`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

excerpts from an article written for the 30th anniversary of Kent State in Ohio:

Tin soldiers and Nixon's coming
By Chris Pallone


"On May 4, 1970, the Ohio National Guard, believing that martial law had been declared, was sent to the campus of Kent State University in Ohio to break up anti-war protests that were going on at the time. These protests started because Richard Nixon had decided that it would be a good idea to bomb Cambodia into oblivion."

"If that wasn't enough, just a few days later, two Black students were brutally slaughtered and many more were shot at Jackson State in Mississippi. Eyewitness accounts differ, but it seems that local police decided to fire their weapons wildly at the protestors. After 30 seconds of continuous firing, two men were dead and 12 others had been shot. This was ostensibly to break up protests, but there were racial motivations to these
attacks. Mainly, the victims were Black and the attackers were White. Most egregiously was the fact that police officers picked up their bullet shell casings before they called the ambulances."

"For example, during many of the anti-war protests at UC Berkeley, the governor at the time, Ronald Reagan (and one of the worst people to have walked this Earth), pressured law enforcement personnel to stop these protests. They responded with excessive violence."

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madmax (3 posts) Click to EMail madmax Click to send private message to madmax Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 09:37 PM (ET)
163. Outrageous!!
When I think back on what went on in Florida with the Miami-Dade paid government employee mob and the rest of the bullshit the freepers and the wingnuts got away with it makes me sick. America deserves this - why the masses didn't rise up and take to the streets then still drives me crazy. I've been to two protests in my state. One when little georgie visited and one against Thief Justice scalia. The swat teams, SS and locals were out and about but they didn't silence us and we managed to get right in front of boy george. No one even showed up to protect scalia.
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ewing2001 (1594 posts) Click to EMail ewing2001 Click to send private message to ewing2001 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 10:14 PM (ET)
Reply to post #163
170. fascism
Every fascism in a country started with a crime.

It's very painful to read reports of AngryWhiteDemocrat,
but no further response or support about strategies, how to leak more evidence, that this country killed 3000 people on purpose.

These fascist structures started already on September 10th, not later.

It's time that more DUs wake up and forget about their election strategy (2002/2004).

We have to think in an impeachment strategy of the whole government, we need a public 911-investigation, we have to support the few 911victim families, who wants to have the same.

There is no other way to fight fascism.
Many of the 911skeptics completed almost the puzzle, have all the names, all the evidence and feel all the bitterness, when they read during their research witness reports like that.

It's time to understand and support the 911-skeptics.
We just combined the Frisco-Washington-Portland-NYC network.
We would like to add Ohio, too, where i had already a few contacts before.

We have to go in public. We will soon organise a new press conference in NYC and trust me, if the time is right, we will mention all these disturbing tendencies in this country.

It's part of the evidence anyway:

Who gains, who profits, which means..

Another sad day in the post-911 area.

I wish i had more manpower to handle faster.
I couldn't get everything done in time and now my means are on zero again.

This is all so discouraging.

It makes me bitter and depressive.

GROUND ZERO Forum NYC
http://www.ourDNA.org
http://forums.delphiforums.com/ground_zero2001

Supporter of the 911-Scepticism Movement NYC, Washington, San Francisco, Ohio etc...

Support public LIHOP-evidence now, SETUP later!

Our last 911-skepticism forum was on May 3rd to 5th in NYC, 135 west 42nd St. (bet. 6th & 7th Ave) at Chashama Theater, Times Square.

It included also a panel on May 4th, streamed live over the net with panelists from DU, guerrillanews, GZ, Alex Jones.com and a live phone session with Oswald Le Winter (Portugal, Ex-USA).


The 911-sceptic contents:
a) geopolitical background (carlyle, harken, UNOCAL,
CentGas, DynCorp, ENRON Broadband/TSI/Taliban,
Halliburton etc..)
b) investigative + scientific oddities, prior knowledge/early warnings, details for a set-up incl. LIHOP etc..
c) current political situation, historical comparisons
Proj. Northwoods, Bushistory, Ashcrofts
database/reading lists, threads of week, lies of war, yuppie fascism,
civil liberties/arrestments etc..
d) political and media analysis plus current support
for 911-investigation (US congress: McKinney, Stark,
plus opinions Ron Paul etc.., AtlantaPoll,
911-petition with 11000 sigs, diff. books from Moore
to Greg Palast), 911-website projects, independent
media portals etc..
e) Insider-oddities +details, insider-infos, last
minute topics, "breaking news"...

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Tigerlily Donating Member (5490 posts) Click to EMail Tigerlily Click to send private message to Tigerlily Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 07:05 AM (ET)
Reply to post #170
207. Hi ewing, I hope you're feeling better today!
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Patriot_Spear Donating Member (378 posts) Click to EMail Patriot_Spear Click to send private message to Patriot_Spear Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 10:01 PM (ET)
169. Well Done...

Image

Bush Knew... Pass it on.

"The overwhelming bulk of the evidence was that this was an attack that was likely to take place overseas."
- White House National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, in a May 16 news briefing.

"Bin Laden Determined to Strike in U.S."
- Title of the CIA's Aug. 6 briefing memo to President Bush...

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subbi326 Donating Member (116 posts) Click to EMail subbi326 Click to send private message to subbi326 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 10:32 PM (ET)
173. I am so angry
I'm sitting here with tears running down my cheeks wondering why the hell I spent 3 years supposedly defending the rights under the Constitution which we allegedly have. WTF? I salute you for your courage doing this and wish I could have been by your side. I cannot abide this. I fought in a war believing that I was supporting the right of free people to govern themselves (probably falsely as it turns out) and to have the right to dissent from the prevailing views. I think that it was all in vain, not only since the VN war was wrong but because the idealism of the time seems to have been subsumed to the idiotic uber patriotism of the present. I am ashamed of my country. I never thought I could say such a thing. Sorry, I cannot think straight right now I am so upset. Fuck these fascists. It is appalling that University officials of all people could not only condone such activities but initiate them. I am very afraid for the future of this country after hearing this. The first amendment zones were bad enough. This is worse. Is there no way to get the American people off their collective asses?

Vietnam Veteran for Kerry in 2004

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allenswill (2 posts) Click to EMail allenswill Click to send private message to allenswill Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 11:02 PM (ET)
Reply to post #173
177. Ohio
Neil Young wrote "Ohio" the night of the Kent State Nixon ordered Murder's in the dressing room at Madison Square Gardens. They performed it that night. I hope someone is singing "Ohio" tonight. It's a very sad night indeed.
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GinaMaria Donating Member (1965 posts) Click to EMail GinaMaria Click to send private message to GinaMaria Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 11:43 PM (ET)
Reply to post #177
181. Welcome Allenswill!
Glad you are here. I've been humming that tune since I started reading this thread. There will not be better days ahead for any of us if we don't do something today. Democracy is at Death's door. Don't let her ring the bell.

Gina

Bush Knew

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WillyT (984 posts) Click to EMail WillyT Click to send private message to WillyT Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 01:49 PM (ET)
Reply to post #177
246. Playing It Right Now As I Read This Tread...Tears Flowing...
Also gonna play "What About Me?" by Quicksilver Messanger Service. Another superb protest song!!!

If you haven't heard it before, please check it out.

BTW - There was a Greatest Protest Songs thread a while back in the DU Lounge. Maybe it's time to redo that, and maybe post it permanently as a reference. Just a thought...


Image

Image

PROUD MEMBER OF THE GRASSY KNOLL SOCIETY

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BlazeDiem (77 posts) Click to EMail BlazeDiem Click to send private message to BlazeDiem Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 11:26 PM (ET)
180. If we don't fight against THIS atrocity then what greater one are we waiting for?
Enough is enough...The World needs to know what a sorrowful nation America has become since Bush moved himself into the WH. Thank You for telling of the REALITY of "life under George Bush". Keep telling it until we are SHOUTING IT!!
__________________________________________

If we don't fight against THIS atrocity then what greater one are we waiting for?

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Lee Templeton Donating Member (406 posts) Click to EMail Lee%20Templeton Click to send private message to Lee%20Templeton Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 00:15 AM (ET)
Reply to post #180
185. I'm not waiting any more...
This whole thing sickens me. Here's the letter I've already sent: (I also put it in the other OSU thread and on other groups at World Crossing and EZ. It's going to a Democratic meeting tomorrow night as well. And, as I promise, it's getting reworked into a Letter to the Editor.)

To william.kirwan@admin.ohio-state.edu

<william.kirwan@admin.ohio-state.edu>

I am unable to truly convey my disgust at the administrators of Ohio State University who threatened their graduating class with expulsion if they exercised their constitutional right to free speech over Bush's appearance at their graduating ceremony.

This one statement, broadcast over a loudspeaker to a football stadium of students and their families, says in a moment more about Bush's precarious standing in public opinion than any number of liberal or international op-ed pieces. In that moment, your university broadcast the grave state of American democracy and the even graver state of Bush's legitimacy.

The thunderous ovation culled by threats of expulsion and arrest rings hollow and it echoes around the globe as the sound of a servile toady to a bullying master. For many in recently emerging democracies, it is a familiar sound of dictators and censorship.

Through the Internet, the story of OSU threatening its student is gaining a widening audience by the second. The commentary on Ohio and its people is not flattering. Nor should it be. This incident is disgraceful. This incident deserves continued scrutiny and scorn. This incident will be a black mark on the Ohio higher education system for some time to come.

I make a personal commitment to the students of Ohio State University. A version of this letter with links to documentation will be sent to international newspapers in the United Kingdom, Ireland, and Germany. A second version will be sent to domestic papers.

Your graduation ceremony was a disgrace to the years of hard work and study of every student who attended. Your university is a disgrace to democracy.

Lee Templeton
San Francisco

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B Calm Donating Member (240 posts) Click to EMail B%20Calm Click to send private message to B%20Calm Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 04:49 PM (ET)
Reply to post #185
289. Great letter Lee
.
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Magginkat (62 posts) Click to EMail Magginkat Click to send private message to Magginkat Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-14-02, 11:51 PM (ET)
182. Since that two bit Texas Slug stole the office.............

He has been acting like he owns the flipping country. This jackass was not kidding when he said the he would like to be dictator.

I knew things were headed downhill when the Secret Service showed up at my door about 3 months after that sleeze bag installed himself in the Oval office.

I was talking to a young black man from my local newspaper and he told me that he prayed that AF One would crash into the ocean everytime he hears that it is going to fly some place with that dimwit on board. I think I will join him in that prayer. Frankly I would love to see that low, life greedy, egotistical, SOB would get caught in some scam where the courts would have no choice but give him life in prison without parole... That is the kind of justice that this miserable little rat would understand.

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Revolution (1 posts) Click to EMail Revolution Click to send private message to Revolution Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 00:03 AM (ET)
184. AWD
Thanks for standing up for democracy.

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paradox (143 posts) Click to EMail paradox Click to send private message to paradox Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 00:17 AM (ET)
187. Good Job AWD
This pathetic administration is a disgrace.
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Truthseeker15 (1 posts) Click to EMail Truthseeker15 Click to send private message to Truthseeker15 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 00:26 AM (ET)
189. How SAD
This lovely and very sad story told to all of you by the angrywhitedemocrat NEVER HAPPENED! How gullible are you? Now you believe that a three year old said Bush sucks? 2004 will be a cakewalk for Bush if this is what's supporting his opponent.
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allenswill (2 posts) Click to EMail allenswill Click to send private message to allenswill Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 00:46 AM (ET)
Reply to post #189
192. Communist Press Corp!
Let's chock it up to the Pravada run AP press corp on this one! God the Liberal press again! I bet Clinton has his hand in this!
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Tigerlily Donating Member (5490 posts) Click to EMail Tigerlily Click to send private message to Tigerlily Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 07:07 AM (ET)
Reply to post #189
208. ?????
?????
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9215 (505 posts) Click to EMail 9215 Click to send private message to 9215 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 09:04 AM (ET)
Reply to post #189
215. Look at all the newbies
with freeperish overtones suddenly come aboard. They are trying to shut this topic down.

Truthwrecker: What are you going to say when what happened to AWD happens again to somebody else, and again, and again...?

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Marthe48 (33 posts) Click to EMail Marthe48 Click to send private message to Marthe48 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 00:40 AM (ET)
191. Ohio State fascism
Great quotes revisited:

Voltaire: I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to my death you right to say it"

Bush: I don't agree with what you have to say, so sit down and shut up (alternate: who cares what you think)

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socialdemocrat1981 (596 posts) Click to EMail socialdemocrat1981 Click to send private message to socialdemocrat1981 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 00:51 AM (ET)
194. How frightening...
Angry White Democrat,

My worst fears about the Bush Administration -even from the perspective of a non-American-have been confirmed. It is now clear that the Bush Administration has cheaply exploited the tragic, senseless and horrific tragedy of 9/11 to provide for the consolidation of its position and the marginalization/intimidation of any effective opposition. Your treatment at OSU was beyond disgraceful and has frightening implications for the future of peaceful protests in the United States. The ironic thing is that while GWB is parroting how the "war on terrorism" is about protecting and preserving the rights of freedom and democracy throughout the globe, it is clear that this privilege is gradually being eroded in the United States.

Congratulations for your courage and bravery in taking a stand against this very disturbing trend in American politics and your determination to keep doing so.


****************************************************
"If John Howard wins the election . . . it will be a
victory of prejudice over policy."
-- John Hewson (Former Liberal Party Leader 1990-1993) commenting on the 2001 Australian Federal Election

"It is better to defeated on principle than to win on lies" Arthur Calwell, former Australian Labor Party Leader (1960-1967)

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rabid_nerd (21 posts) Click to EMail rabid_nerd Click to send private message to rabid_nerd Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 01:40 AM (ET)
196. Thank you AWD....
I think you've done a great thing by letting everyone know...

Please everyone call Leadership '02 to encourage them to encourage Al to denounce this act - especially AWD, with your first account...
703-875-9202

I'm emailing my contact there (and calling her as well)..

This is much bigger than "selling photos", which drew a response form Al as being "disgraceful"...

I'm also letting my best friend - who is a good friend of Al - know about your story...

Again, thank you Jeff!

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CTV (1 posts) Click to EMail CTV Click to send private message to CTV Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 03:46 AM (ET)
202. Forgive me for this, but if you were the grad, your reccount doesn't work...
LAST EDITED ON Jun-15-02 AT 03:48 AM (ET)

In post 119 you set the record straight and say that you were the Grad yesterday--but if that is true, then your recounting doesn't work.

You write: "We entered the stadium later with family and friends"... but according to the OSU.edu Instructions to the Graduating Class:

"Guests are asked to arrive at Ohio Stadium at 6 a.m. and enter through gates on the east side of the facility. Graduates should report to French Field House at 6:30 a.m. In order to assure that graduates are assembled and guests are seated in ample time for the ceremony, admittance to either facility cannot be guaranteed after 8:30 a.m. Family and guests should go directly to Ohio Stadium. Graduates only will be admitted to French Field House."
http://www.osu.edu/units/ucomm/commence/instructions_O.html#tickets

Graduates were on the field, friends and family were in the stands--and this would include children of graduates.

Children are not allowed with the graduates who must go through processionals, etc.

Any bused in guests would be sitting in the stands, and not standing near the front, as shown by this OSU instruction:

"The Ceremony
"The Prelude in Ohio Stadium is from 9 to 9:30 a.m. The Class Processional leaves French Field House at 9:10 a.m. and moves into Ohio Stadium at 9:30 a.m. Guests must remain in the stands and off of the field throughout the ceremony. "
http://www.osu.edu/units/ucomm/commence/family2_O.html#tickets

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AngryWhiteDemocrat (1099 posts) Click to EMail AngryWhiteDemocrat Click to send private message to AngryWhiteDemocrat Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 10:51 AM (ET)
Reply to post #202
220. Clarification
I've already graduated OSU....a long time ago.

I just re-read my post (#119), and it did sound as if I was graduating Friday. I did not graduate Friday.

Sorry to confuse you. Hope this clears it up.

Watch what you say, or they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal."
-Supertramp

Proud Card-Carrying Member Of The Grassy Knoll Society

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seeken (1 posts) Click to EMail seeken Click to send private message to seeken Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 03:58 AM (ET)
203. Wow
Shocking!

It's a good thing that John Ashcroft decided you all have the right to have your own guns, eh? So you can shoot the jack booted thugs when they come after you! You should join the NRA, I bet they have all sorts of info about what type of bullet to use against what type of jack booted thug.

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TahitiNut Donating Member (2534 posts) Click to EMail TahitiNut Click to send private message to TahitiNut Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 04:03 AM (ET)
Reply to post #203
204. Is that what you'd do?
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Tigerlily Donating Member (5490 posts) Click to EMail Tigerlily Click to send private message to Tigerlily Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 07:10 AM (ET)
Reply to post #203
210. What is it with all the newbies encouraging violence today?
Gee, I just can't figure that out!
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DEMActivist (137 posts) Click to EMail DEMActivist Click to send private message to DEMActivist Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 09:57 AM (ET)
Reply to post #210
216. You had to know...
when this went mainstream on the net, we'd get all kinds of disruptors in here.

Since AWD, in effect, proves the President of OSU is lying and AP is complicit in that lie, there are some who will be sent to destroy - destroy credibility, destroy community, destroy access.

Let's keep our eye on the target and ignore the disruptors.

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PaDUer (80 posts) Click to EMail PaDUer Click to send private message to PaDUer Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 10:41 AM (ET)
Reply to post #210
218. something fishy...
About the story...reread ...then note the comments made...contradictory.
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skip fox Donating Member (710 posts) Click to EMail skip%20fox Click to send private message to skip%20fox Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 07:08 AM (ET)
209. Fine Report!
Don't worry about what you didn't do. And, yes, there will be "next times."

(Old liberal from the 60s--jailed twice: once in Chicago, Aug. '68.)


Image

When he learned the language of the birds,
he stayed inside as much as possible.


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Tigerlily Donating Member (5490 posts) Click to EMail Tigerlily Click to send private message to Tigerlily Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 08:19 AM (ET)
211. Question for AngryWhiteDem...
I'm trying to figure out if you were a graduating student or a family/friend of a graduate? I'm confused.
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AngryWhiteDemocrat (1099 posts) Click to EMail AngryWhiteDemocrat Click to send private message to AngryWhiteDemocrat Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 10:54 AM (ET)
Reply to post #211
222. Friend
I graduated long ago....I noticed that I made a confusing post at one point, calling myself the OSU grad. I didn't clarify it well enough.

At Friday's procession, I was only a friend.

Watch what you say, or they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal."
-Supertramp

Proud Card-Carrying Member Of The Grassy Knoll Society

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Tigerlily Donating Member (5490 posts) Click to EMail Tigerlily Click to send private message to Tigerlily Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 10:59 AM (ET)
Reply to post #222
224. OHHHHHH. Thank you for clearing that up.
I was getting very confused!
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LiberalTexan Donating Member (2348 posts) Click to EMail LiberalTexan Click to send private message to LiberalTexan Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 10:10 AM (ET)
217. You did not disappoint us, AWD

I am so mad I'm shaking at this moment. You made the news down here in Palm Beach County, Florida-- our local Dem talk show host, Randi Rhodes said it is CRAZY what they are doing up there in Ohio, not letting people peacefully protest.

I have so many thoughts on this.

#1 Where are the ACLU? Isn't what Ohio State did illegal?

#2 To a degree I agree with Cappurr-- EVERYONE who was planning on this protest should have been briefed on their rights and consequences and gone ahead and did it anyway. Scare tactics did not stop people in the 60's. Until we wake up and realize that this is our COUNTRY at stake, we will continue to be sheeple.

#3 The story I read from dispatch.com said this:

"Graduates had been warned during rehearsal on Thursday that they faced arrest if -- as was rumored -- some stood up and and turned their backs on Bush during his speech. But the only visible demonstration occurred outside the stadium, where about 30 people, including OSU students, protested the war in Afghanistan and displayed signs calling Bush a terrorist."

So, they got mention, the ones outside. What I would have done (yes, I know, in hindsight, but maybe we can learn from this) is NOT go to my commencement. Stand OUTSIDE with my cap and gown on and a sign PROTESTING. There was a line of over half a mile long the reports say. Wouldn't that mean it would get some attention? The THIRTY people got attention. All the people that were going to do this silent protest inside could have been outside protesting. That would have sent a nice message: kids getting ready to go out in the world PROTESTING BUSH. Instead, the "protesters" and supporters of protesting were increasing the headcount inside. That made it look like everyone was cramming in because they love Bush so much.

Another thing that could be done in the future: Just everyone GET UP AND WALK OUT when Bush comes in. What would a mass exodus look like?

Just some thoughts. AWD, you did what you could. I think for some reason either it wasn't organized well enough as a collective protest or the kids graduating from college are afraid of the scare tactics still. Is this really any way to go out into the world? Scared of your government?

WE NEED SOME REAL LOUD PROTESTS FROM NOW ON! STAND OUTSIDE WITH YOUR DRUMS AND CONNECT THE DOT SIGNS!!!!

Last word: do NOT be upset about this experience. LEARN from it, everyone! We are just starting this revolution. We are learning each day!!!! This is what the administration is afraid of! Let's continue to fight!!!


Image

Champagne on Election Day!


Image

"Since that day, many people have asked me if I would do this all over again. My answer: absolutely. I have never felt more confident or secure about any decision in my life."

Senator Jim Jeffords of Vermont, on his decision to leave the Republican Party and vote with the Senate Democratic Caucus.


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travvller (1 posts) Click to EMail travvller Click to send private message to travvller Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 11:10 AM (ET)
Reply to post #217
228. Unfortunately, Al Gore did behave the same way in 2000
Please excuse my intrusion as a total newbie to this site. . .

As a bird dogger for Peace Action during the 2000 presidential primary in NH, I completely believe this story.

Unfortunately, such tactics are not limited to just Republicans.

It was my task to bird dog all of the four major candidates on the US policy toward Iraq. The two easiest candidates to approach -- and at times literally nail in public with a tough question -- were Bradley and McCain with McCain being the absolute easiest. The worst two were Gore and Bush with Gore easily being the most difficult to bird dog.

Al Gore was simply not accessible during the NH Primary -- the same place where McCain had over 100 town meetings. Please note, I disagree with McCain on hundreds of issues, but he was accessible. Not once was I able to attend an inside Gore event. At one event, at a PUBLIC building in Salem, NH, I was not allowed to enter because I "hadn't been invited." It seems only known Gore supporters had been invited. Since I couldn't get into the building I decided to make a protest sign there on the spot -- and I was threatened with arrest for being too close to the building! For a sign. Outside of a public building. I was eventually restricted in how close I could get -- the opposite side of the road in a 40-50 foot section of sidewalk. Please keep in mind that this was the middle of winter, the temp was about 15 degrees, and it was about 7 p.m. In other words, they castrated whatever political statement I was trying to make since no one was going to see me protesting.

As for outside Gore events where there was far less control, my problems came mostly from Gore staffers and supporters. In Boston Gore supporters would stand in front of me to block my sign. This was a concerted effort that involved hand held radios since I kept moving through the crowd in attempt to be seen by Gore. This behavior was so noticeable that one person, who I didn't know, approached a Gore supporter and told him that he'd lost his vote because he had never seen such a blatant attempt to censor someone's political views at a public rally.

At another event at Keene State College I discovered that Gore was so unpopular with local students that he had to bus supporters in. It was a sad sight -- more than a hundred REAL KSC students protesting Gore outside of THEIR building while people from out of town were inside listening to Gore. And yes, I witnessed this firsthand.

I don't like Bush, didn't vote for him, and my job literally involves opposing his so-called 'war on terrorism' and attempts to destroy the Bill of Rights. However, I'm also no fan of Gore. He lost my vote after what I saw here in NH. Bush, despite what an evil man he is, isn't alone in unethical tactics to squelch free speech and dissenting political views.

For anyone who wishes confirmation on this message, here's my applicable info:

Patrick Carkin
NH Peace Action Co-Director
NHPA phone: 603-228-0559
http://www.nhpeaceaction.org

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AngryWhiteDemocrat (1099 posts) Click to EMail AngryWhiteDemocrat Click to send private message to AngryWhiteDemocrat Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 12:42 PM (ET)
Reply to post #228
240. How can you say????
How can you POSSIBLY compare Gore supporters trying to block your sign to Bush using GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS to remove somebody from a building for facing north while everybody else was facing South???

Oh, you're a one-poster....that's how. Welcome, disruptor.

Watch what you say, or they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal."
-Supertramp

Proud Card-Carrying Member Of The Grassy Knoll Society

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buckleyd2 Donating Member (373 posts) Click to EMail buckleyd2 Click to send private message to buckleyd2 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 01:01 PM (ET)
Reply to post #228
244. Just because you give contact info...
LAST EDITED ON Jun-15-02 AT 01:02 PM (ET)

doesn't make you more credible. Why this sort of comparison right now? Forgive me if I consider this message to be distraction or an attempt at sabotage.

The fear of President Gore is palpable from his enemies. They will fail. The internet is the one of the single biggest threats to the plans of the junta and the biased media. Word gets out. We force them to hem and haw, and distract the sheep, because if the sheep finally wake up and search for unbiased commentary, God help them. You remember that.

There are huge differences between our legitimately elected leaders and little bush. President Gore and President Clinton would not have commanded that crowds cheer for them, or that peaceful protesters be arrested because they're real men, and not cowards, and they understand the Bill of Rights, something that the boy king cannot tolerate, because it gets in the way of everyone worshipping him.

bush is a small, pitiful, wretched little sh*t. Nothing you have said changes that, and doesn't change what happened yesterday. This isn't going away.

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TahitiNut Donating Member (2534 posts) Click to EMail TahitiNut Click to send private message to TahitiNut Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 02:20 PM (ET)
Reply to post #228
251. Welcome to DU, Patrick!
IMHO, it's important to focus on the issues, as you have, rather than the "my party, right or wrong" which is what has so corrupted the Republican Party. I can easily understand how Gore's security was tighter (being the sitting VP) and probably overzealous ... particularly in light of the "no holds barred" lying attacks of the right.

It is abundantly clear that our "freedoms" are no longer "free" ... but have been mercantilized: only available to those who can pay the highest price. Scaife and the VRWC were able to purchase the "right" to lie, slander, and libel without bounds ... but many of the poor in FLorida weren't even permitted to vote.

In less than 10 generations, America has moved from "Live Free or Die" to "Live Free if You Can Afford It" ... the extreme plutocracy called fascism.
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power." — Benito Mussolini
"We should never forget that everything Adolph Hitler did in Germany was legal" — Martin Luther King, Jr.
_ Image

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Anj (141 posts) Click to EMail Anj Click to send private message to Anj Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 02:34 PM (ET)
Reply to post #228
253. Funny, I was at a Gore rally
in East Lansing, MI on the Sunday before election day. That old bus drove INTO the crowd, with everyone cheering and pounding on the bus. Gore & Tipper and Debbie Stabenow got out of the bus and climbed onto the stage. Engler was at the back of the crowd with a bunch of Reptilican hecklers. There ware other hecklers behond us as well, until the crowd turned on them and advised them to go kiss Engler's ass. I tried to get into it with Engler after the rally but my husband and a friend dragged me away as the State Police guarding him (and ONLY him)approached. Nobody's ever accused me of knowing WHEN to shut up. So, all the Gore supporters didn't let YOU have the first, last and only say. TOUGH! IT WAS OUR RALLY! Please - go join a BUSH rally - where I'm sure you'll get a much friendlier reaction.
JUST DON'T FORGET YOUR KEVLAR SUIT.
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desi826 (541 posts) Click to EMail desi826 Click to send private message to desi826 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 05:14 PM (ET)
Reply to post #253
265. You go!!
LAST EDITED ON Jun-15-02 AT 05:15 PM (ET)

I tried to get into it with Engler after the rally but my husband and a friend dragged me away as the State Police guarding him (and ONLY him)approached. Nobody's ever accused me of knowing WHEN to shut up. So, all the Gore supporters didn't let YOU have the first, last and only say. TOUGH! IT WAS OUR RALLY! Please - go join a BUSH rally - where I'm sure you'll get a much friendlier reaction.
JUST DON'T FORGET YOUR KEVLAR SUIT.

Yet another "there's no difference between the parties" reference, i.e. Bush and Gore"

You GO girl.
I love a person that's not afraid of an ideological fight, I know from experience that kind of fight always brings more boldness and more strength.
Des

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PhuLoi Donating Member (326 posts) Click to EMail PhuLoi Click to send private message to PhuLoi Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 04:15 PM (ET)
Reply to post #228
288. I read this post at the Free Republic site yesterday.
Same first person format. How curious.

What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William Burroughs

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cybervigilante (307 posts) Click to EMail cybervigilante Click to send private message to cybervigilante Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 09:28 PM (ET)
Reply to post #228
300. Checked your group out
Seems legit, although I wonder if you're allied with Nader, who doesn't like dems? Still, I'll accept your characterization. I'm no totally crazy about Any of the old and aging dems anyway, since they can barely find their spines. I want the 2004 Democratic ticket to be Kucinich and McKinney - dems with balls - both of 'em ;') I'll vote for Gore if I have to but it would be nice to get a Real liberal for a change.

But AWD is right. A private person harassing you only deserved a punch in the nose (okay, you're a peace activist, so much for that idea ;')

But these were Police, State University Officials, and Secret Service Agents. That's different. It goes from a civil or criminal action to Constitutional Infringement precisele because these were officials acting under the color of state government.

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PsychoDad (123 posts) Click to EMail PsychoDad Click to send private message to PsychoDad Click to view user profile Click to send message via ICQ Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 10:52 AM (ET)
221. Thank You AWD
For standing up and turing your back on Bush for all of us who would have liked to have been there.

Love and Peace to you and your family.
There is strength in numbers... Let's remember that.

PsYChOdAd

"Neither was there any among them that lacked; for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need." Acts 4:34

"From each according to their ability, to each according to their need." Karl Marx.

Be sure to visit Uncle Selrach at
http://www.uncleselrach.homestead.com

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MGKrebs (2 posts) Click to EMail MGKrebs Click to send private message to MGKrebs Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 11:18 AM (ET)
Reply to post #221
230. OSU- Call to Action!
I too thank you AWD. I am in Atlanta, and The President (sic) is coming here Monday. I will be there, with signs; rain, smog, gestapo, or whatever. I will be thinking of you for inspiration. Anyone in Atlanta who wants to join me, here's a link to the info.

http://legitgov.org/protest_bush_atlanta.html

Rights are never given, they are asserted! (MLK, Jr.)

The time is now!

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Lee Templeton Donating Member (406 posts) Click to EMail Lee%20Templeton Click to send private message to Lee%20Templeton Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 11:11 AM (ET)
229. Went to sleep, had a good breakfast, and...
Hey! I'm still angry. Sent my first letter again to Richard Hollingworth, Associate Vice President of Student Affairs at OSU. Got the whole story on seven different discussion groups and wrote a letter to Dana Milbank of the Washington Post. Got that on some action letter writing groups too. Next is the mass letter to the editor using Bpilgrim's link to the Global Media. I'm thinking about what I might write to campus and student newspapers. Tonight...a chance to present the story with all supporting documentation to a Guardian reporter.

Under consideration: finding a list of all Ohio State University's corporate connections and writing them.

How's everyone else doing?

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iviangri (68 posts) Click to EMail iviangri Click to send private message to iviangri Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 11:26 AM (ET)
231. good job awd
i belive that turning your back on a speaker (any speaker--pResident not an exception) is an act of civil disobedience not unlike the sit downs etc-- and beatutifully, not disruptive. i read criticisms from the freepers saying that this act is a disruption--blocking peoples view, but, its my understanding that this action was taken when the audience was asked to stand up, so how could turning one's back in a crowd of standing people block anyone's view?
this country has a proud tradition of peaceful protest--thank you for helping to keep it alive even in these times of civil liberty suppression.

"the aim of modern propaganda is no longer to modify ideas, but to provoke action. it is no longer to change adherence to a doctrine, but to make the individual cling irrationally to a process fo action. it is no longer to lead to a choice, but to loosen the reflexes. it is no longer to transform an opinion but to arouse an active and mythical belief." --jacques eullel
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gdewan (1 posts) Click to EMail gdewan Click to send private message to gdewan Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 12:02 PM (ET)
233. The word from Ohio State
Hi I sent this message to the Univ. President from Ohio State :

Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 6:39 AM
To: william.kirwan@admin.ohio-state.edu
Cc: mwo@mediawhoresonline.com
Subject: All heil

Just to let you know that there are a considerable number of us out here that find enforced "thunderous ovations" a little reminiscent of 1933 Germany.

And got this response:

Subj: RE: All heil
Date: 6/15/2002 3:54:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Basinger.2@osu.edu
To: Gdewan@aol.com
Sent from the Internet (Details)

I am responding on behalf of President Kirwan who is out of the office for a few days.
Not everything you read or hear in the news is always correct. Below is the quote from the script of the individual who requested the applause for our university president who would be attending his last commencement.

"I am going to ask that you give President Kirwan an especially warm welcome today since this is the last commencement over which he will preside. At the end of the month, he returns to Maryland to become chancellor of the University of Maryland system. I hope that by your thunderous applause when he comes up to speak that you will thank him for his service to Ohio State."

There is supposed to be an updated AP (they had a few things twisted) that is coming out, but I do not know when. Please share this information with your colleagues. Thank you.

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Tigerlily Donating Member (5490 posts) Click to EMail Tigerlily Click to send private message to Tigerlily Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 12:04 PM (ET)
Reply to post #233
234. Perhaps this deserves it's own thread?
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Lee Templeton Donating Member (406 posts) Click to EMail Lee%20Templeton Click to send private message to Lee%20Templeton Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 12:23 PM (ET)
Reply to post #233
235. Please start a separate thread on this
I wrote to OSU early in the developing story and have received no reply at all. It would be nice to think that some administrator is getting paid overtime on a Saturday because the OSU president's computer is smoking with emails. I want to believe that they are already in spin-mode here, because that little letter is a very clever cover-up. However it will be easily disproved by the eyewitness accounts already posted at turnyourback.com and video accounts that are surfacing.

Has anyone else received this letter? If so, has it been forward to MWO and the Turnyourback site.

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buckleyd2 Donating Member (373 posts) Click to EMail buckleyd2 Click to send private message to buckleyd2 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 12:43 PM (ET)
Reply to post #233
241. Bullsh*t...
I'm not sharing a goddamn thing. Share the information, my ass. I'll spread the word regarding AWD's eyewitness account, as well as the fact that the AP "scrubbed" their original story by deleting the references to arrest and expulsion. That's the kind of information that needs to be shared, Ms. Basinger, whoever the hell that is.

I will not stand for outrageous spin, lies and an attempt to rewrite history within hours. We will fight the junta and their accomplices every step of the way as they try to turn this country into a fascist, police state one commencement address at a time. Everything evil act this monster does is now because of "security" interests. Only the weak will succumb to such brainwashing.

Forgive me for not believing your message, but I must. This response is as foul as last week's bathwater.

Fu*k the junta.

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Hatrackman (1 posts) Click to EMail Hatrackman Click to send private message to Hatrackman Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 01:09 PM (ET)
245. pride is what makes nuclear bombs
there are no countries

there is only one commandment- love

the conscientious are exempt from prohibition

there are no enemies- only children that don't know better

truth becomes obvious with dedication to it

to be divine is merely to be dedicated to truth

'evil' only gets it's power when it is given credit

and stuff...

all love,

me

David

u r God - - - humility is the stone in David's slingshot

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SCantiGOP Donating Member (514 posts) Click to EMail SCantiGOP Click to send private message to SCantiGOP Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 02:15 PM (ET)
250. Thank you, AWD
I took off yesterday, and just picked up this thread. There are many things the good folks at DU disagree about; thanks for giving us something that, even in anger, can unite us all. Everything old is new again: POWER TO THE PEOPLE !!

"The truth is there is an ideological struggle between those who believe that the best way to grow the economy is to give more money to the wealthy, and the Democrats who believe that the wealthy will make more money if average people do better." --President Bill Clinton

"A little revolution, now and then, is a healthy thing. It is as natural as lightning." --President Thomas Jefferson

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Loupegarou (2 posts) Click to EMail Loupegarou Click to send private message to Loupegarou Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 03:01 PM (ET)
254. OSU denies anyone was escorted out.
I emailed William Kirwin and thes are the responses;

>Sir,
>I am dismayed...no outraged, at the actions taken to stifle
>legitimate
>dissent at the commencement ceremonies at OSU. Free speech
>is fundamental to
>our system of government. The actions of the OSU
>administration deserves
>ridicule, and I will pass this information on to all of my
>cantacts. You
>should be ashamed, and pilloried for your fascist stance.
>
>Clark XXXXX


>Clark: At least get your facts straight before you register
>a complaint, or do you not want that to confuse you? The
>facts are: students were not prevented from protesting;
some
>did...and with no consequences for them.

Brit Kirwan


So you deny that any students or others were removed for
turning their backs
on the president?
I am concerned with the direction of our country, and try to
find balanced
reporting. Unfortunately I feel that our media is being lax
in its duty to
cover events in a balnced fashion. I also question the
instructions to the
students for "thunderous applause." I am hearing now that
those instructions
were for the outgoing president(?), and would like your
comments on this.
I would also like to know if you have an "email" bank of
people available to
respond to emails from others questioning the events at OSU
yesterday?

I do. And I challenge you to find such a person. The
willingness to accept unsubstantiated claims as facts is as
great a threat to our nation as the fallacious claims you
make against Ohio State.

Brit Kirwan

As you can see, they deny that anyone was removed. They fail to respond to all of my email, but I have replied and asked for more commentary.


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buckleyd2 Donating Member (373 posts) Click to EMail buckleyd2 Click to send private message to buckleyd2 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 03:25 PM (ET)
Reply to post #254
256. gdewan's post said that Mr. Kerwin would be out of the office...
for a few days, so who wrote you? For that matter, who wrote gdewan, because I find that response suspect, as well with it's "share the information" crap. Why aren't the rest of us getting some sort of response? I sent Mr. Kirwan an e-mail yesterday, as did many others, I'm sure. How come more of us aren't getting any responses? And why would someone named William call himself Brit, unless that's some sort of nickname, but I doubt a University President would use his nickname to respond to an inquiry from a stranger.

Someone's pulling your chain.

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indigo (36 posts) Click to EMail indigo Click to send private message to indigo Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 08:22 PM (ET)
Reply to post #256
270. In response to buckleyd2 ....
> How come more of us aren't getting any responses? And why >would someone named William call himself Brit, unless that's >some sort of nickname, but I doubt a University President would >use his nickname to respond to an inquiry from a stranger.

<1> His name is William England Kirwan and has always been known as "Brit," in reference to his middle name. And yes, he always signs his email with "Brit." No cause for suspicion here.

<2> Responses -- frankly, there's nothing in it for him to take much of a stand on this. He is undoubtedly packing his stuff in anticipation of his return to the University of Maryland System as Chancellor. It's a nice job with a salary around $360K, not including additional benefits associated with his time in as former University of Maryland, College Park (flagship of UMS) President, Math Dept professor, etc.

Interesting story -- outgoing MD Governer Glendening was the leading candidate for the UMS Chancellor position, seemingly had it in the bag. However, two anonymous donor-alums with deep pockets threatened to rescind pledges to the University if Glendening assumed the position. They argued that it would be unethical for the Board of Regents, largely appointed by the Governer, to hand over this plum position to the individual responsible for their appointments. The donors prevailed and Kirwan was contacted for the position.

<3> Welcome to the University of Maryland, home of First Amendment zones.

http://www.inform.umd.edu/News/Diamondback/archives/2002/05/10/commentary1.html

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Eloriel (584 posts) Click to EMail Eloriel Click to send private message to Eloriel Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 11:22 AM (ET)
Reply to post #256
279. I haven't received responses either
I wrote both Hollingsworth and Kirwin.

This is strange, isn't it?

Eloriel

Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never had and never will. -- Frederick Douglas

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Lee Templeton Donating Member (406 posts) Click to EMail Lee%20Templeton Click to send private message to Lee%20Templeton Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 05:02 PM (ET)
Reply to post #254
263. Second version of that OSU response
This is from a member in a smaller media watchdog group that I trust:

Correspondence with Ohio State Univ. President William E. Kirwan
> >
> >
> > William "Brit" Kirwan wrote in response to my letter
> > to him. This is
> > what he had to say, followed by what I wrote in
> > answer to him.

> > At least get your facts straight before you
> > register a
> > complaint, or do you not want that to confuse
> > you? The facts
> > are: students were not prevented from
> > protesting; some
> > did...and with no consequences for them.
> >
> > Brit Kirwan

> > Dear Brit Kirwan,
> >
> > While I thank you for your prompt response, I have
> > to take issue with
> > some of what you wrote. The point is not that a few
> > protestors were left
> > in peace; the point is that students were warned any
> > demonstrations or
> > heckling would result in expulsion (and possible
> > loss of diploma?)
> > and/or arrest. I have to wonder how many sincere
> > protestors felt the
> > cold chill of a police state in that threat and
> > refrained from
> > exercising their Constitutional right to Turn Their
> > Back on a president
> > of the United States.
> >
> > How chilling it must have been to young minds to
> > hear their school
> > administrators tell them to vigorously applaud the
> > president. I did not
> > think that in America, we -- any of us -- needed to
> > be prodded to
> > applaud our president. We are, as Americans, free to
> > applaud or not as
> > we choose.
> >
> > Our universities are supposed to be bastions of
> > enlightenment. They are
> > not supposed to be training grounds for Good
> > Behavior in a police state.
> >
> > That some protectors were not expelled or arrested
> > does not impress me.
> > The announcement prior to the program was chill
> > enough to last me a very
> > long time.
> >
> >
> > Sincerely,
(i'm withholding the name)

Now here's more: I haven't received a response. Earlier today, someone else received a cover-story response which I posted my doubts about. What is interesting is the first letter was a polite piece of coverup crap from an assistant and this second piece is a very emotive and unprofessional response from the man himself. And please note he doesn't deny the threats or intimidation, just notes that they were not followed through. And if I doubt their version of the story, I don't doubt that they are sitting in front of a computer with emails arriving faster than they can spin.

Which means...

IT'S WORKING! They suppressed coverage in the US press, they got AP to revise the story, they mounted a make-nice PR routine...and five hours later they are reduced to rage and threats. The progressive Internet community is showing the growing range of its strength. Keep it up DUers.

Do I doubt this university threatened its students? Not any more. Bill Kirwan just handed us the proof.

Write him again.


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ramblin_dave (61 posts) Click to EMail ramblin_dave Click to send private message to ramblin_dave Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 04:41 PM (ET)
260. Where is the truth, what really happened?
Someone says OSU denies that anyone was escorted out for turning their backs.

Is there proof that anyone was escorted out? AngryWhiteDemocrat said "When we reached the exit, I asked the SS man why we had been ejected, and he told me we were being charged with disturbing the peace. If we chose to leave, the charges would be dropped immediately." Were charges actually made and then dropped? Shouldn't there be a record of this? What about photos, were any made of this incident?

OSU says the request for a thunderous ovation was for their president, not for Bush. Are there witnesses or audio available?

So frustrating. The information age. What good is information when you don't know who is providing it?

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Lee Templeton Donating Member (406 posts) Click to EMail Lee%20Templeton Click to send private message to Lee%20Templeton Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 05:04 PM (ET)
Reply to post #260
264. So enlightening. The information age. When you follow a link
http://www.turnyourbackonbush.com/

This site is being updated frequently.

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mustangshell (2 posts) Click to EMail mustangshell Click to send private message to mustangshell Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 06:31 PM (ET)
Reply to post #260
268. For as big a protest...
... was mentioned you think they could have got some better pictures posted. One apparent protestor in a crowd of 50 students and a picture of a sniper that could be anything.
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Kurukami Donating Member (1197 posts) Click to EMail Kurukami Click to send private message to Kurukami Click to view user profile Click to send message via ICQ Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 03:20 PM (ET)
Reply to post #260
285. Hmmm. We need to have people...
... at demonstrations bring videocameras, and specifically get tape of those being "escorted". It certainly would go quite a distance in providing evidence against the anti-free-speech crowd.


History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it merely shouts "Weren't you listening the first time?!?" and lets fly with a club.


_____________________________

(upon being approached by a group seeking funding for a hospice for AIDS patients)
Governor Ashcroft: Then you have my attention. I'm looking for where it is cheapest to send them to die.
Harry Wiggins (group representative): Governor, that's not what we're here for. These are human beings.
Governor Ashcroft: Their pain and suffering is a result of their own misconduct.

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MyDogSpot (112 posts) Click to EMail MyDogSpot Click to send private message to MyDogSpot Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 05:13 PM (ET)
Reply to post #285
291. Video cameras recording the protestors outside as well
and the comments made by passersby would be useful for America to see itself as a mirror image.

The Tamil Tigers videotape their war w/their govt. for recruiting purposes. The use of videotape for protesting the Bush administration could have the same useful purpose, as long as it's kept peaceful and orderly (in my opinion).

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peacey (201 posts) Click to EMail peacey Click to send private message to peacey Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-02, 08:22 PM (ET)
271. related thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/duforum/DCForumID35/27985.html


Graduation speech cut short by hecklers" ... not at OSU, though

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ganesh (1 posts) Click to EMail ganesh Click to send private message to ganesh Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 09:39 AM (ET)
277. punc
I am sorry for what happened there. That is pathetic. However, as a college graduate, please know that quotes at the end of a sentence go after the period.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (2534 posts) Click to EMail TahitiNut Click to send private message to TahitiNut Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 06:26 PM (ET)
Reply to post #277
294. Ohhh! Lookie! A punctuation critique! So (ir)relevant!
And incorrect! The placement of punctuation in relation to quotation marks is more a matter of style than of grammatical correctness. When quoting a word or phrase, it's often just as correct to place the punctuation outside the quotation marks as inside ... particularly when the punctuation is not demonstrably an inherent part of the quotation. Consider the following:
Archimedes ran through the streets yelling "Eureka!"
Mrs. Malaprop said she was moving to "Eureka"!
Both are correct. Clearly, Archimedes was himself exclaiming, while Mrs. Malaprop was not ... but the reportage of what she said (possibly in lieu of "Yreka", a California city) was exclamatory.

It is a matter of common style and usage in the US, not grammar, to place commas and periods (not semicolons, colons, exclamation marks, or question marks) inside adjacent quotation marks, but this style is not universal in the English-speaking world. In British usage, for example, single quotation marks (') are preferred, and the punctuation is enclosed if and only if it is both a part of the quoted material and it is consistent with the surrounding material in which it is being quoted.

So, if you wish to engage in condescending and irrelevant pedantry, either improve your comprehension of the material or find a less-informed audience. (Several of which come immediately to mind.)
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power." — Benito Mussolini
"We should never forget that everything Adolph Hitler did in Germany was legal" — Martin Luther King, Jr.
_ Image

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0rganism Donating Member (2260 posts) Click to EMail 0rganism Click to send private message to 0rganism Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 07:48 PM (ET)
Reply to post #277
296. irrelevant clause -- poor sentence construction
> However, as a college graduate, please know that quotes
> at the end of a sentence go after the period.

Whether the quotes go in a particular position has absolutely nothing to do with the "as a college graduate" clause. The rule, which is usually relaxed in cases of elipsis, exists independent of anyone's education. Furthermore, it is not specified whether the responder or the respondee is the graduate in question, so the clause becomes not only irrelevant but also confusing.

We put the USA in Usama!http://www.worldwar3report.com


And we're marching to Bastille DayMy blood is bruised and borrowed.
La guillotine will claim her bloody prizeYou thieving bastards.
Sing, o choirs of cacophony You have turned my blood cold and bitter,
The king has kneeled, to let his kingdom rise Beat my compassion black and blue.
Rush, Bastille DayTool, Ticks And Leeches

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EastofEdon (34 posts) Click to EMail EastofEdon Click to send private message to EastofEdon Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 11:03 AM (ET)
278. I'm Curious
if this story has made it onto mainstream radio or TV. I was hoping perhaps it might get mentioned on NPR. I don't think it has. No suprise there. Maybe some letter writing would help.
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B Calm Donating Member (240 posts) Click to EMail B%20Calm Click to send private message to B%20Calm Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 04:13 PM (ET)
287. AngryWhiteDemocrat, Ski & Skinner talked about your letter
today on WLS.
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George Tirebiter (531 posts) Click to EMail George%20Tirebiter Click to send private message to George%20Tirebiter Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 09:09 PM (ET)
298. If we can't turn our backs on him, Let's laugh at him.

If we will be arrested for not facing him and paying attention to him, then let's face him AND pay attention to him.

But instead of rendering applause, let's bust out laughing.

Whenever the pregnant pauses come for the sheeple to applaud, lets all of us bust out laughing and single clapping every fifth or sixth clap in dis-unison, the way we do when we are faced with a comedian who is just sooo funny, he puts us into stitches. Then stop the laughter immediately when the sheeple quit clapping and pay rapt attention again just like the automatons - except for a small twist. While we are standing rigidly and paying rapt attention to him:

Let's keep our eyes WIDE OPEN so as to appear BUG-EYED and let us tilt our heads back so that the whites appear to bulge out on top of our eyes.

This gives us the mind control or frankenstein look and can be very disruptive to anyone facing us and trying to concentrate while speaking.

Will we then be arrested because Bush is no laughing matter or because we paid attention to him too closely ?

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cybervigilante (307 posts) Click to EMail cybervigilante Click to send private message to cybervigilante Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 09:52 PM (ET)
Reply to post #298
303. won't work
Laughing is as much "disturbing the peace" as turning your back.

In fact, you will not even be allowed to fart in the lordly presence of the Commander in Thief.

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George Tirebiter (531 posts) Click to EMail George%20Tirebiter Click to send private message to George%20Tirebiter Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-17-02, 02:14 AM (ET)
Reply to post #303
308. Nah, laughing or turning away are not disturbances of the peace ...

The French and Russian revolutions were disturbances of the peace. Our Judiciary needs to *not* hand down Roland Freisler style rulings. None of us wants history to repeat itself.

I'm not worried about us left wingers, but in the last couple of weeks I've noticed core right wing groups like the heavily armed Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership turn hard against this regime. Read: Are The FBI's New Guidelines Police State Policies ? by Richard Stevens posted @ http://www.jpfo.org/fbirules.htm OR The State vs. The People -The Rise of the American Police State by Claire Wolfe and Aaron Zelman, reviewed @ http://www.jpfo.org/tsvtp.htm . Even the NRA has been openly and harshly critical of the Bush regime recently.

If this trend continues, our learned men and women sitting on the bench may be the only ones still in a position to help us avoid major internal strife. I hope they realize this and rule in accordance with constitutionally accepted statutes and case law and avoid holding in the name of political expediency.

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cybervigilante (307 posts) Click to EMail cybervigilante Click to send private message to cybervigilante Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 09:13 PM (ET)
299. Cause of Action?
I think the OSU students have a Constitutional cause of action. Civil rights were Definitely violated by the University and the police, and the University is a state body. Might not get past the rightwing USSC but think of the publicity that will spread the word about fascism at OSU. Here's the possibly applicable law.

I also believe the section of 42 U.S.C. § 1983 (saying "..under color of state law" gives even more latitude for interpretation. Even city cops and state university officials can act under color of state law and a threat of arrest Was made under that color.

However, I'm getting varying opinions on it. That it would be frivolous and invite sanctions (I sure don't think it's frivolous, at least as to the cause). Or you couldn't get an attorney - maybe the ACLU or another group? Or maybe just let the university worry about it without actually filing ;')

==========================

42 U.S.C. § 1983 (Civil Rights Act of 1871)

GENERAL A person states a claim under 42 U.S.C. § 1983 if he alleges that the defendant deprived him of a constitutional right while acting "under color" of state law. Specifically, § 1983 provides that: Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer's judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia.


LIMITATION PERIOD & FILING REQUIREMENTS In actions under Section 1983, a court must ascertain the analogous underlying cause of action under state law and apply the applicable statute of limitations. There is no requirement to file with the EEOC or administrative agencies before instituting a Section 1983 action in court.


JURISDICTION In order to state a claim under § 1983, a plaintiff must allege a violation of rights secured by the Constitution or laws of the United States, and that such violation was committed by a person acting under the color of state law.


REMEDIES/DAMAGES Section 1983 permits victims of employment discrimination to obtain a jury trial at which both equitable and legal relief, including compensatory and, under certain circumstances, punitive damages may be awarded. Johnson v. Railway Express Agency, Inc., 421 U.S. 454 (1975).

Jim Mooney

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NicksCrusade (5 posts) Click to EMail NicksCrusade Click to send private message to NicksCrusade Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-16-02, 09:34 PM (ET)
301. A reminder of how things SHOULD be
LAST EDITED ON Jun-16-02 AT 09:41 PM (ET)

Ah for the good old days. MWO has this from President Clinton's speech at Ohio State University on October 29, 1996:

THE PRESIDENT: Here at Ohio State and Ohio Tech and biotech centers and firms all across America, new discoveries are being made at breathtaking speed. The United States government just signed a contract with IBM to produce a supercomputer -- wait, hey, wait a minute. Just listen to it.

MEMBERS OF AUDIENCE: Dole-Kemp. Dole-Kemp.

AUDIENCE: Booo!

THE PRESIDENT: Wait, wait. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Just listen to them. Wait a minute. Why are they screaming like that? We heard you. Now, how about the First Amendment. We heard your message, now you listen to ours. (Applause.) This is a university. This is a university and we have respected their free speech. They won't respect ours because they hate the truth. We're better off, and we had to run over them to do it. (Applause.)

Now, they must not have any student loans. Senator Dole voted against creating the student loan program. (Applause.) Ohio State adopted our direct loan program. They must not be in the direct loan program which gives you the right to pay your loan back as a percentage of your income, because Senator Dole led the fight against the direct loan program. (Applause.)

And they must believe we should start the 21st century as the only great nation in the world with no one in the President's Cabinet to represent education, because that is part of the Dole-Kemp program for the 21st century -- get rid of the Department of Education. (Applause.)

I welcome anyone to these rallies, and I welcome you to theirs. I hope you will never go to theirs and stop them from speaking. I believe in free speech at every university in America. (Applause.)

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Lee Templeton Donating Member (406 posts) Click to EMail Lee%20Templeton Click to send private message to Lee%20Templeton Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-17-02, 00:20 AM (ET)
Reply to post #301
306. Hello Nickscrusade!
Glad you contributed this reminder. I'm thinking of getting some of Clinton's words printed up on a Tee-Shirt. Might be a good thing to wear to some future rallies or graduation ceremonies if it comes to that.

Hope people have the time to visit:

http://www.nickscrusade.com/

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FreedomNewsNetwork (1 posts) Click to EMail FreedomNewsNetwork Click to send private message to FreedomNewsNetwork Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-17-02, 00:31 AM (ET)
307. Unbelievable, yet believable....
Regardless of any political affiliation of the participants
in this forum or any other... I, as an AMERICAN, am appalled
at the actions of the school and Bush's people.

I am more appalled at the mainstream media for squashing
this story. I run a news service with close to a thousand
readers. That might not be millions, but it's a start.
I will definitely be telling them about your story and I sent
this story to Lewis News in Lewis County Washington. I'm
waiting for them to read the story on their radio program
which is running live right now.

Please know I will do all that is in my power to bring
this story out from the shadows and into the light.
I have a ton of editors on my news list and they will be
sending your story out right away... no doubt about it.

Don't stop telling your story... just get louder as you go!

~Sharlene Shappart~

PS. I hate to see these fat bureaucrats cause my fellow
Americans to fight amongst themselves. Divided we fall..
united we stand. Who are we fighting? Each other or them?
Whatever issue is your "hot button", we should remember we
are all in this together for the long haul. We either do it
separately and pay the price, or we stand together and WIN IT
BACK together! God bless all your efforts, large and small..
All of you.. (Dems, Reps, Libs, Greens, Indpend... purple,
brown, white, black, yellow, green...)

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WatchWhatISay Donating Member (759 posts) Click to EMail WatchWhatISay Click to send private message to WatchWhatISay Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-17-02, 02:43 AM (ET)
Reply to post #307
309. What were they so worried about?
Did they think the media might actually SHOW the protestors. Fat chance of that.
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happyherpes (1 posts) Click to EMail happyherpes Click to send private message to happyherpes Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-17-02, 08:34 AM (ET)
310. BUSH=HITLER, thank you for noticing! angrywhitedemocrat,
AWD,

i dont wanna sound like a fragile person, i'm not a whiner. don't cry too often. But reading your posting I had to swallow something away.
You know, yesterday, my father and I had a discussion about the States and all, and well frankly he said Bush is turning into Hitler, and no-one notices. I found that a little over the top. But whe I read this, I know he is right. And my god, he is! I don't get you people! GET THE HELL AWAT FROM YOUR COMPUTER! GET ANGRY! THIS WILL NOT STAND. WE LEARNED, WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO PROTEST, TO DIFFER. DID THOSE MILLIONS DIE FOR NOTHING? GO OUT! ALL OF YOU, NOW! DON'T EVEN FINISH READING. PLEASE, IF YOUR (AND NOT BUSHES) FREEDOM MEANS ANYTHING TO YOU, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE GO AND PROTEST.
Your country has brought up some of the finest people in history, Luther King, JFK. (you killed both of them too, by the way). But, what we need to understand, is that they were nothing more than you are. Everyone of you, reading this at the office, at home, day or night, you have the power. you are the people. Never forget that.
Bush is turning your beloved country into a police-state, with no room for real personal freedom. some would call this fascist. he's a reactionair.

I'm an outsider. I dare to say this:
You americans have been made weak. You accept everything. At the Olympics, when a ripped flag is brought out, at the openingceremonies, you should protest to that. Yes, even that! By not doing that, by continually lamenting the dead, willing to avenge on others,you accept that Bush may do anything he feels right for. Injustice. Your country's senate accepted a law which justifies it to invade the Netherlands if american soldiers are brought to justice by the UN, for war-crimes! Imagine what would happen if North-Korea or China would accept such a law. You created it for godsake! Cooperate!

Angry White Democrat, don't feel ashamed for following their orders; consciously fighting the system is very hard when you are attached to a family, and your lawsystem. At that time, you did the right thing.

I want to end this with an illustration of a time in your lives when I did see the right reaction. Undoubtedly there have been more, I see the very existence of this page as a reflection of the fact that lots of you understand the problem. You understood the problem in 1992, when you set Los angeles on fire. Rodney King. Get angry.

If anyone wants to respond,they know how. Furthermore, i want to repeat my emailadress here, 'cause I open that more than I do this. Happyherpes@hotmail.com for your reaction. It's possible to respond. I would much rather that you would get angry. Get outside. You are the people. Show that. If this would happen in my country I would dissapear into the underground resistance.

Peace.

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FiveOfSix (1 posts) Click to EMail FiveOfSix Click to send private message to FiveOfSix Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-17-02, 08:57 PM (ET)
311. There are getting what they wanted
I hate to say this but the terrorist are winning. They are getting what they wanted. They wanted to terrorize us -- they got it. They wanted to disrupt our way of life -- they got it and are getting more. WHEN ARE WE GONNA WAKE UP!

I am a PROUD AMERICAN who teaches English (and American Culture) in South America. Everyday I listen to people say how they are powerless to fix their corrupt governments and I always tell them, "You live in a democracy. YOU ARE THE GOVERNMENT!"

Have we forgotten this? How can I face my students as a good American role model when my fellow country men and women aren't standing up and defending what I and many feel is one of the most well written documents in history: The US Constitution?

My friends told me that when I returned I would find a very different country and after reading this thread, I'm starting to see exactly what they were talking about.

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Tigerlily Donating Member (5490 posts) Click to EMail Tigerlily Click to send private message to Tigerlily Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-18-02, 06:18 PM (ET)
313. bump
for will wheaton fans.
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cybervigilante (307 posts) Click to EMail cybervigilante Click to send private message to cybervigilante Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-18-02, 06:21 PM (ET)
315. OSU Nazi Poster - Get 'em While They're Hot ;')
Image
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cybervigilante (307 posts) Click to EMail cybervigilante Click to send private message to cybervigilante Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-18-02, 06:25 PM (ET)
316. It doesn't matter
whether someone was escorted out or arrested or not. Their rights were violated and the Constitution was trashed the minute a State University Official issued the threat of arrest or expulsion, for anyone who exercised those rights.

In fact, the ones whose rights were violated the most were those who did not demonstrate out of fear of reprisal.

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cosmicdot (112 posts) Click to EMail cosmicdot Click to send private message to cosmicdot Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-18-02, 06:56 PM (ET)
317. Plain Dealer: OSU quells protest but gets angry words
LAST EDITED ON Jun-19-02 AT 03:12 PM (ET) by Skinner (admin)

OSU quells Bush protest but still gets angry words

06/18/02

Julie Carr Smyth
Plain Dealer Bureau

Columbus

- An attempt by Ohio State University officials to squelch politically motivated rowdiness during President Bush's commencement address last Friday has some students, parents and civil libertarians crying First Amendment foul.


The controversy arose after Richard Hollingsworth, OSU associate vice president of student affairs, sternly warned graduates before Bush's speech that "obstructing the view or hearing of others" could lead to their removal or arrest.

His remarks were prompted by reports that some audience members planned to stand up and turn their backs to Bush during his speech.

EDITED BY ADMIN: COPYRIGHT

link to story

http://makeashorterlink.com/?K25E12511

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Leon122 (1 posts) Click to EMail Leon122 Click to send private message to Leon122 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-18-02, 08:00 PM (ET)
318. "Ohio State fascism - What happened today"
I can imagine your situation well, eventho i have not experienced it myself, I feel ya. I know that the time is at hand, and time will stand with us for a while. Time for change - stop corporate fudalism and give the controll back to the people and dont forget our freedom.
Thanks for the insight.
VOTE
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Inncubus (1 posts) Click to EMail Inncubus Click to send private message to Inncubus Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-19-02, 12:13 PM (ET)
Reply to post #318
319. The Protests.
I am not an american, but english. I read the first post and was moved to read through everything else. One thing from the law information was that yours is most definately not 'the land of the free' or anything like it.
My main reason for posting is to suggest a reasonable method of protest, I gather that you are, under the law, allowed to not listen/ignore the speaker-in this case, bush- to show that instead of somthing which it seems may be actionable-such as standing up into someone else's view- you may read a book. This would show quite clearly that you are not listening(even though you may actually listen, information is power) but could hardly be construed as disruptive.
I don't know what the situation is in the US but here you do not have to attend a graduation ceremony to recieve your degree. Another very telling protest would simply be not to turn up when bush is a speaker; if only 2-3 folk turn up then he'll look silly but they can hardly prosecute for non-attendance.
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hairydog (56 posts) Click to EMail hairydog Click to send private message to hairydog Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-19-02, 09:20 PM (ET)
Reply to post #319
320. Check out Salon.com/ Table Talk
. Someone told me in Salon's Table Talk, it says many alumni wrote to the university and requested that their names be removed from all alumni fund-raising letters.

One person posted the answer he received.

Not sure where it is, but cruise around and you are sure to find it.

Word is getting out!!

::ff to find it in Table Talk:::

Linda

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pallandr (54 posts) Click to EMail pallandr Click to send private message to pallandr Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-20-02, 12:45 PM (ET)
321. I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS!!!!!
Just a fun quote from Zoolander... Anyway,

I heard about this stuff on Malloy's show, and I was just outraged. I told my dad about it (I remember him as being a radical liberal when I was younger) and you know what he told me? "Oh, I think that's what any university staff would have done for any important speaker. Shouldn't the guest speaker have the opportunity to speak without being interrupted?"

Turns out my dad isn't such a radical liberal after all. He also told me that he doesn't really like Bush, but at least he's a man who knows how to surround himself with people that are 100% loyal, rewards his supporters, and follows his principles.

Anyway, I'm glad to see that people still protested in their own way in spite of the "illegality" of it.

Peace

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hairydog (56 posts) Click to EMail hairydog Click to send private message to hairydog Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-20-02, 04:23 PM (ET)
Reply to post #321
322. Salon Links
LAST EDITED ON Jun-20-02 AT 04:31 PM (ET)

Here are a couple of links for you to see what happened to some others at OSU. Scroll up and down; there are a number of messages at both areas.

http://tabletalk.salon.com/webx?7@118.nXtUaJPxkI3^9@.3b9ee3f8/3968


http://tabletalk.salon.com/webx?50@118.nXtUaJPxkI3^3@.eec6b7d

Sorry the links didn't come out just right. Just copy the entire URL including past the ^ in each URL. I think you will find this interesting and mostly supportive.

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Colonel (2 posts) Click to EMail Colonel Click to send private message to Colonel Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-20-02, 04:57 PM (ET)
323. Grrrrrrr...
Reading this message, I must say that I am appauled. You think that it is wrong for it to be required that we RESPECT our duely elected president? It certainly sounds like it.

Trun Your Backs On Bush? That fact that you took part in this shows just how pathectic you are. It is people like you that have put this country on the track it is currently on, it is people like you that have discrased the office of the President, it is people like you that has turned the military from a profession to be strived for, to a profession looked down upon. In other words it is people like you that have destroyed what this country has stood for since its conception.

You comment about Nazi Germany nearly put me over the edge. How are we like them? Explain. All that was asked of you was to respect our leader, thats it. You and the rest of your peacenik bretheren seem to think that that is an infringement on your rights as Americans. Do you refuse to respect teachers, how about judges, doctors, or police officers? If we were like Nazis, we would be putting dissenters LIKE YOU into concentration camps, child or not.

I fear for you kids upbringing. Yet another generation that will think the military is evil, and that the president is to be shunned. You know...you remind me a an old hippie that I met a few days ago. Tell me, will you wait at an airport so that you can spit on anyone in uniform returing from Afganistan, or will you look to them with respect and hope that you can be as strng as them if you must? My guess is the former. And to think that a youth will be raised by you. I pitty the child.

After 9-11 we were put in a state of war. But not a normal war, this is a war that is fought in our own cities, by our own people. Some freedoms must be restrained to protect us. That is a simple fact.

It is not freedom that is dead people, it is patriotism that has died. And I mourn its passing.

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snooper2 (340 posts) Click to EMail snooper2 Click to send private message to snooper2 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-20-02, 05:17 PM (ET)
Reply to post #323
324. Let me guess Colonel....
You are white, between the ages of 35-45, never served in the military; oh never mind I just realized I'm wasting my time.


"In these awful days, George W. Bush has become the American Yasir Arafat, an empty, repetitive, shifty public personality who talks out of both sides of his mouth, with little or nothing to say from either of ’em. Oh, he’s still Israel’s man: maybe not quite as much as he was on Tuesday, but more than he was on Thursday, though by Sunday, who knows, he might be back in staunch-ally mode again, or conversely he might have a few encouraging words for the Arab side. He’s as purposeful as a wind-up toy boat with a bent rudder doing circular putt-putts in the bathtub."

by Nicholas von Hoffman, New York Observer


Quote of the Day: "In my state of the ... my State of the Union or state - my speech to the nation - whatever you want to call it, speech to the nation." – President Bush, Tuesday morning in Connecticut. (Thanks to CBS News Correspondent Mark Knoller traveling with the president.)

© MMII, CBS Worldwide Inc. All Rights Reserved.

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Colonel (2 posts) Click to EMail Colonel Click to send private message to Colonel Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-20-02, 05:27 PM (ET)
Reply to post #324
325. Actually.
Actually snoop, I am 22, and served in the Marines until I got a medical discharge after a training accident. But I am a white male, at least you git that right.
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cybervigilante (307 posts) Click to EMail cybervigilante Click to send private message to cybervigilante Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-20-02, 05:34 PM (ET)
Reply to post #323
326. What's good for the goose?
How is it that eight years of Horrible disrespect of President Clinton wasn't unpatriotic? The right wing smeared him every single day for eight years and some time after.
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Marianne Donating Member (1358 posts) Click to EMail Marianne Click to send private message to Marianne Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-20-02, 06:01 PM (ET)
Reply to post #326
327. that's easy
Clinton did not manufacture a war against an idea; he never told us we were at a 'war" that would last indefinately purely to enhance his image and his party's greed for power.

People who get on the excessive patriotism bandwagon do not realize how they have been duped. They are vulnerable because of their ignorance and lack of knowledge of history. They do not realize how they have been manipulated and how their very soul has been sold to an evil person-- one who would love to be a dictator as he has stated. They think they must give everyting they have to promote fascism. They do not see it as fascism--are incapable of doing so.They see it as protection and safety. Pity them--they have lost their soul.

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Kurukami Donating Member (1197 posts) Click to EMail Kurukami Click to send private message to Kurukami Click to view user profile Click to send message via ICQ Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-20-02, 07:11 PM (ET)
Reply to post #323
328. "Patriotism" hasn't died.
But it has, in its most government-approved version, been bought out by corporate pimps, shipped out to be manufactured in China, made logo, and sold on every late-night commercial-TV program and right-wing website.

Your flag sticker will not get you into heaven. In fact, should it (or an antenna flag) be found on a gas-guzzling SUV, I will be glad to chastise you for your hypocrisy.


History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it merely shouts "Weren't you listening the first time?!?" and lets fly with a club.


_____________________________

(upon being approached by a group seeking funding for a hospice for AIDS patients)
Governor Ashcroft: Then you have my attention. I'm looking for where it is cheapest to send them to die.
Harry Wiggins (group representative): Governor, that's not what we're here for. These are human beings.
Governor Ashcroft: Their pain and suffering is a result of their own misconduct.

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TahitiNut Donating Member (2534 posts) Click to EMail TahitiNut Click to send private message to TahitiNut Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-20-02, 08:01 PM (ET)
Reply to post #323
329. How much "RESPECT" did you give Clinton, Kernal?
"You think that it is wrong for it to be required that we RESPECT our duely elected president?"
Yes, I do. I would never impose a requirement that the reich-wing respect President Clinton or President-elect Gore.

"...shows just how pathectic you are..."???
"...people like you..."???
"...nearly put me over the edge..."??? You are over the edge, sweetie. Adjust your straitjacket.
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power." — Benito Mussolini
"We should never forget that everything Adolph Hitler did in Germany was legal" — Martin Luther King, Jr.
_ Image

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PresidentAlGore (1 posts) Click to EMail PresidentAlGore Click to send private message to PresidentAlGore Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-21-02, 09:31 PM (ET)
Reply to post #329
330. Has the ACLU been contacted?
Can we confirm that the ACLU has been contacted? This story needs to quickly gather the attention of the ACLU and other national news wires.
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vmounts (2 posts) Click to EMail vmounts Click to send private message to vmounts Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-28-02, 00:00 AM (ET)
Reply to post #323
334. Re:Grrrrrrrr .... HUH?
Reading this message, I must say that I am appauled. You think that it is wrong for it to be required that we RESPECT our duely elected president? It certainly sounds like it.

2 problems with this statement. 1)Duely elected. Huh? where you been? Bush was not elected he was appointed in a one time decision of the supreme court(i.e. they say it doesnt; set precedent.. just is good for this one special case). He won due to illegal voter purging by his brother , blocked roads and transportation to voting facilites and illegal ballot design. 2) Required? Ummmm no sorry. The constitution you defended for so long requires no such thing. Furthermore, why should I respect him if he doesn;t respect the constitution of the contry I was born in and love dearly(e.g. USA "Patriot" act).

Trun Your Backs On Bush? That fact that you took part in this shows just how pathectic you are. It is people like you that have put this country on the track it is currently on, it is people like you that have discrased the office of the President,

Ummm. sorry again. The peopel that disgraced the office would be the office holders. Johnson: escalating a senseless war based on what is now known to be a fabricated attack in the Gulf of Tonkin. Supressing Disent. Nixon: Watergate, illegal wars in cambodia etc. Reagan/Bush I : Iran-Contra, October Suprise etc etc etc etc etc Clinton:Lying about oral sex Bush II: Being heavily funded by Enron to get elected and then appointing at 8 least former enron people to his administration. Allowing Enron to approve/appoint its own overseers in the Dept of Enrgy. Allowing Enron to be a part of the Energy Task Force. And then pretending they didn;t know anything when many admin officals admit they were told by enron itself. Wiping his ass with the constitution and passing the most anti-patriotic bill in us history... ironically called the patriot act. Using fear tactics and mud slinging to cow his opposition in the congress and elsewhere.


it is people like you that has turned the military from a profession to be strived for, to a profession looked down upon.

I personally don't look down on people in the military . I don't see how political dissent and support of people in the military has anything to with each other... except for maybe the fact that the right to dissent is supposed to be one of the things said people are fighting for.

In other words it is people like you that have destroyed what this country has stood for since its conception.

Not dissenting is what the country has stood for? Interesting. Perhaps you need to read a history book or something.... no offense. Start with Thomas Jefferson who wrote our Declaration of Independance. That should really be enough to see how silly that is to say.

You comment about Nazi Germany nearly put me over the edge. How are we like them? Explain. All that was asked of you was to respect our leader, thats it. You and the rest of your peacenik bretheren seem to think that that is an infringement on your rights as Americans. Do you refuse to respect teachers, how about judges, doctors, or police officers? If we were like Nazis, we would be putting dissenters LIKE YOU into concentration camps, child or not

No we just threaten arrest and revoke of diplomas.

I fear for you kids upbringing. Yet another generation that will think the military is evil, and that the president is to be shunned. You know...you remind me a an old hippie that I met a few days ago. Tell me, will you wait at an airport so that you can spit on anyone in uniform returing from Afganistan, or will you look to them with respect and hope that you can be as strng as them if you must? My guess is the former. And to think that a youth will be raised by you. I pitty the child

That is a sad statement about you that you would pity a child for a parent that shows them they should stand up (or turn around) for what they beleive in. I owuld think that you that were willing to give you life for what you beleive in would respect that.


After 9-11 we were put in a state of war. But not a normal war, this is a war that is fought in our own cities, by our own people. Some freedoms must be restrained to protect us. That is a simple fact.

That is so rediculous. lol. That is exactly what this country is against. Ok try this.... your car might be stolen at any time. So... you should leave the door unlocked and keys in it because that is the best way to protect it in the long run. Hey if its gone you don;t have to worry about it being stolen anymore. Sounds absurd, ignorant, goofy? So is the idea that the best way to protect freedom is to take it away. Hey at least if we don't have any freedoms they won;t hate us anymore right? And we won;t have to defend anything because it will all be gone. Great logic. What exactly were you defending in the military all those years anyway? You are the epitome of the anti-patriot.

It is not freedom that is dead people, it is patriotism that has died. And I mourn its passing.
Man you must be seriously blind. Everything is done in the name of the flag. Put in place laws that allow indefinte detention that can be used by this administration or (and this is the important part) any future administration to lock up whomever they claim to be "against the state" with no judicial review? none of the check and balances that "this country has stood for since its conception". All in the name of a flag waving patriotism. Now thats some serious messed up double speak if I ever heard it.


Wake up Colonel... Sir.

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vmounts (2 posts) Click to EMail vmounts Click to send private message to vmounts Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-28-02, 00:18 AM (ET)
Reply to post #323
335. P.S.
On the subject of Nazi's. Here's a little ditty from the author Robert Anton Wilson's site. As he once said (paraphrased) "its not the truth unless it makes you laugh ,and you don;t understand it until it makes you cry".

Perils of Cocaine Abuse

Two recent political leaders allegedly had this nefarious habit.

Both came to power after dubious elections, by non-electorial and irregular methods.

Both nations immediately experienced attacks on famous public buildings.

Both blamed an ethnic minority before forensics had any evidence.

Both led "witch-hunts" against the accused minority.

Both suspended civil liberties "temporarily."

Both put the citizenry under surveillance.

Both maintained secret and clandestine governments.

Both declared war against most of the world.

One had a funny mustache. Can you name the other one?


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rickshaw (1 posts) Click to EMail rickshaw Click to send private message to rickshaw Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-22-02, 04:21 PM (ET)
331. Um, exactlly where did Bush figure into this other than being the target?
Its been established for a while that people in this position have certain protections. Clinton had them as well.

Despite the protestations of it being about free speech, it was not.

It was about students that were graduating after 4 or more years of hard work having an internationally recognized speaker at their ceremonies.

Its called common curtesy.

Yup, you guessed it, i am a conservative.

As for the Bush economy, it is a mess inherited after 8 years of nonsense, accounting double-talk and security drains.

And i am willing to bet that if the protest had been outside of a PRIVATE instituition, even if it DOES accept federal funds, than the people would not have been removed.

I am sorry that you feel your rights to protest were trampled on, but its kinda the feeling that I as a conservative have felt since I was old enough to vote. Being white, male, from the south, and conservative, i am not exactly embraced by the previous administration, the media, and indeed, even parts of the federal government.

So, i am sure you will understand that the whole "I wasn't allowed to disturb the ceremony of students i did not even know or pay for!" scenerio doesn't fly.

By the way, let me ask this, why was it okay to disrupt this ceremony, but not okay for conservatives to even be on the air in our nations capital?

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Buck (1 posts) Click to EMail Buck Click to send private message to Buck Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-23-02, 12:15 PM (ET)
333. Respect
In a Democracy, it is not just democrats or republicans who should cheer or jeer the president. For eight years I had to bear the presence of the biggest liar, cheat, draft dodger, and womanizer in the name of democracy. Now we have a man in the White house who is willing to tell the truth and you want to dis him. I do not remember him bombing the WTC, but I do remember him responding to the dastardly act. I do not remember the former president doing anything when the USS Cole was nearly sunk. I remember when Clinton performed the pin prick with cruise missiles. A Man steps up and is counted, and you dis him. I really do not understand, but another sits on his behind and does nothing when our service members are killed for no good reason and you applaud. There is something wrong with that picture. I am not a Democrat, I am an American, and I served this country for 24 years defending her against all foes foreign or domestic, and am very proud of that service, and if this president were to call for me to serve again I would with honor.

Wayne C. Bucklaew ATC
USN Retired

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