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"Fred Barnes accuses Stephen Ambrose of plagiarizing some 3rd party"

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AP (234 posts) Click to EMail AP Click to send private message to AP Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jan-05-02, 11:10 PM (ET)
"Fred Barnes accuses Stephen Ambrose of plagiarizing some 3rd party"
This is pretty rich.

Am I correct in my recollection that Barnes has several plagarized works lurking in his closet?

This is actually something with which I have some professional experience, and, from what the article says, this is NOT a case of plagiarism. One subclause in a sentence doesn't cut it. So why the outrage from Barnes?

Reminds of the Republican campaign strategy from 2000: to short circuit a legitimate potential criticism, accuse your opponent of doing it first even though it's a lie. That gives you total insulation. How can your oponent turn around and say 'No, I didn't do that. You did that!' He sounds like a whining baby, even though it's true.

Barnes is really getting with the Republican program.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/arts/AP-Ambrose-Plagiarism.html

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  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 Oh, that's plagiarism, alright Rabideau Jan-05-02 1
   but lazarus 01/06/2002 2
       Agreed Rabideau 01/06/2002 4
 they're both freepers!!!!!!! texasleo Jan-06-02 3
   texasleo newyawker99 01/06/2002 5
 Fred Barnes suffered from a severe lack of oxygen at birth Gman Jan-06-02 6
 a hypothetical dsc Jan-06-02 7
   Well Rabideau 01/06/2002 9
 Politically, I Don't Get This. Snellius Jan-06-02 8
   This is a conservative instinct Rabideau 01/06/2002 10
       In defense of myself AP 01/06/2002 11
           No need to defend yourself Rabideau 01/06/2002 13
       Too Clever For Someone Like Barnes Snellius 01/06/2002 16
   the book in question speaks well of George McGovern IndianaGreen 01/06/2002 12
       Ding ding ding! Sagan 01/06/2002 14
           Ding Ding Ding is right AntiSmirk 01/06/2002 15
       I have much respect 0007 01/06/2002 18
           I care... Sagan 01/06/2002 19
 Ambrose concedes to mistake Rabideau Jan-06-02 17

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Messages in this topic

Rabideau (743 posts) Click to EMail Rabideau Click to send private message to Rabideau Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jan-05-02, 11:34 PM (ET)
1. "Oh, that's plagiarism, alright"
LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-02 AT 11:35 PM (ET)

What they cited there IS plagiarism, no mistake. Maybe not by media standards, where clauses are pulled from articles and inserted in others, but by academic standards that is plagiarism. The question will be how the footnotes operate, but it looks pretty bad. Why would any self-respecting writer simply lift somebody else's words anyway??? Shouldn't Ambrose have the feeling that he can say it BETTER?

We're told businesses have souls, which is surely the most terrifying news in the world. - Gilles Deleuze

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lazarus Donating Member (2313 posts) Click to EMail lazarus Click to send private message to lazarus Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jan-06-02, 02:01 AM (ET)
Reply to post #1
2. "but"
It is entirely possible this is an editing issue. The footnotes were there, quite possibly someone didn't make that last check. Remember, these authors have assistants who are supposed to catch this sort of thing. Plus, the editor should have been cognizant of the possibility.

Besides, why would he steal a pair of sentences? This seems to be much ado about a minor error. Notice that Barnes didn't get all hot and bothered about Coulter and Olsen stealing their garbage.


"We need to understand the international implications of the President's order, which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions, without the possibility of judicial review"
-- Senator Patrick Leahy, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, November 14, 2001

"This idea that you don't critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense,"
--Richard Shelby

"We can support the troops without supporting the President.''
--Trent Lott


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Rabideau (743 posts) Click to EMail Rabideau Click to send private message to Rabideau Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jan-06-02, 10:54 AM (ET)
Reply to post #2
4. "Agreed"
That this could be an editing issue, and I pointed to the problem of the footnotes in my post.

However, I don't think anyone would have noticed if it were only that one sentence. That may just be the most shocking sentence they could pick for the space they had.

I also agree that it's much ado about nothing, and I think Childers hit the right note by expressing merely disappointment if it was true. In the world of higher education, where plagiarism is endemic among students and people who teach have to play the unfortunate role of fraud investigator as well as instructor, things like this make people crazy (as they should!). So, it's really a question of different community standards. Where a minor issue like this could be viewed as silly by the public at large, real social factors (as opposed to petty quibbles) make it damn near intolerable for an academic community.

The number of papers plagiarised in whole or in part in US colleges is ridiculous, and it's damaging.

We're told businesses have souls, which is surely the most terrifying news in the world. - Gilles Deleuze

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texasleo Donating Member (2784 posts) Click to EMail texasleo Click to send private message to texasleo Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jan-06-02, 05:15 AM (ET)
3. "they're both freepers!!!!!!!"
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1318 posts) Click to EMail newyawker99 Click to send private message to newyawker99 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jan-06-02, 10:58 AM (ET)
Reply to post #3
5. "texasleo"
sometimes you outdo yourself!!


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Gman Donating Member (387 posts) Click to EMail Gman Click to send private message to Gman Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jan-06-02, 10:58 AM (ET)
6. "Fred Barnes suffered from a severe lack of oxygen at birth"
The results were permanent

"He (W) had always listed, throughout his campaign and since, the reasons why the nation might depart from this policy, reasons he had given as acceptable for running fiscal deficits: for war, recession, or emergency. As he said to me in mid-September, 'Lucky me. I hit the trifecta.'" -- Remarks by OMB Director Mitchell E. Daniels, Jr. at Conference Board Annual Meeting Oct 16, 2001 -- http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/pubpress/daniels_conference_board_speech10-16-01.html

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dsc (937 posts) Click to EMail dsc Click to send private message to dsc Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jan-06-02, 11:30 AM (ET)
7. "a hypothetical"
He attributes the quote in question to McGovern. If McGovern actually said that would it still have been plagurism?
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Rabideau (743 posts) Click to EMail Rabideau Click to send private message to Rabideau Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jan-06-02, 11:42 AM (ET)
Reply to post #7
9. "Well"
LAST EDITED ON Jan-06-02 AT 11:58 AM (ET)

If the quotation is exact, it should be enclosed in quotation marks and cited. In historical writing, pretty much everything should be cited BUT your own argument (in history, generally arguments of causation and consequence - history is not a collection of facts but a collection of ARGUMENTS!!!) and well-known facts, such as "George Washington was the first President," or "Franklin Roosevelt died in 1945," etc. You should be able to distinguish an argument from a supporting fact and you should definitely CITE PARAPHRASES of other's arguments. This citation preference in history writing is usually applied in order to help other historians go to those sources, rather than to guard against plagiarism, but there is an element of giving proper credit for historical discoveries and the arguments they produce. It's also, as is all citation, a rhetorical issue of strengthening your argument (making it more credible, making YOU look more learned, making your deployment of facts more forceful, invoking respected authorities to whom your audience is more likely to assent - making your argument more persuasive, in other words).

With the particular quotation used by the AP article, the issue is a little more fuzzy - is it a well-known fact? is it an argument? is it a factual discovery? I would have closed that passage with quotation marks, but I would have also cited the source - even if I had paraphrased it. It's just good practice.

We're told businesses have souls, which is surely the most terrifying news in the world. - Gilles Deleuze

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Snellius (100 posts) Click to EMail Snellius Click to send private message to Snellius Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jan-06-02, 11:41 AM (ET)
8. "Politically, I Don't Get This."
Stephen Ambrose, if anyone saw him being interviewed during the uncertain period of the Florida re-(non-)count, was a big supporter of Bush and, obviously, a passionate champion of the military. I do not understand why a conservative hack like Fred Barnes in a right-wing rag like The Weekly Standard would be trying to attack one of their own. Ambrose is on their side, I would think, and I don't think Barnes is just trying to launch a new career in literary criticism.
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Rabideau (743 posts) Click to EMail Rabideau Click to send private message to Rabideau Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jan-06-02, 11:55 AM (ET)
Reply to post #8
10. "This is a conservative instinct"
Towards a unified self, reclaiming the myth of the originating author (which has been all but destroyed philosophically in the humanities) and, of course, insisting on intellectual property.

Plagiarism is a problem in the academy primarily because it hurts the learning process - most people (OK, I can't back that up - I'll say many people)apply plagiarism rules strategically and provisionally for pedagogical purposes, without really buying into much of the underlying philosophy which motivates and underpins them. Due to the economic structure of the academy as well, many academic writers are obsessive about protecting their work from plagiarism, as it really is a work and job issue.

Someone like Barnes can smuggle in a conservative version of the "individual" through accusations of plagiarism. It's reclaiming an idea of the self that's been called into question. That's the political value for someone like Barnes.

It may also be that Barnes simply has a chubby for this cat Childers (who is quite a good historian, from what I understand, and turns out much more detailed stuff than Ambrose, and for whom the bomber story was a family labor of love) and is personally offended by Ambrose's use of his work.

We're told businesses have souls, which is surely the most terrifying news in the world. - Gilles Deleuze

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AP (234 posts) Click to EMail AP Click to send private message to AP Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jan-06-02, 12:08 PM (ET)
Reply to post #10
11. "In defense of myself"
Copyright protects the copying of the expression of an idea. Plagiarism protects the copying of an idea (which copyright law won't protect) -- and it's not a legal principle, it's more of an academic/ethical principle.

Copying a fact, like how a person gets into a turret and closes the hatch behind him is neither the copying of the expression (because it isn't sufficiently substantial -- eight or ten words rightly can't be copyrighted) nor is it plagiarism, because it isn't an original idea that Ambrose is copying. It's just a very simple description of a fact. If Childers had an entire thesis which Ambrose lifted (using the similar words or different words), then Ambrose would have been copying Childer's ideas, which is plagiarism.

Barnes is making a mountain out of a molehill. Which is very odd, since he (I understand) has committed real plagiarism in his career. The only way that this makes sense to me is that Barnes is trying to change the public perception of what plagiarism is so that when someone soon reminds the public that he has plagiarized, people will say, "OK, but, if I remember correctly, when Childers was plagiarized, he only exressed regret...and didn't sound like such a big deal. If the victims of plagiarism believe that it isn't a serious problem, then Barnes hasn't done anything really wrong."

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Rabideau (743 posts) Click to EMail Rabideau Click to send private message to Rabideau Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jan-06-02, 12:17 PM (ET)
Reply to post #11
13. "No need to defend yourself"
as I'm not sure anyone is attacking you.

I would call the quote listed in the article (when I said AP before I was referring to the article, not to you!) counts as expression, simply by the fact that language provides a near infinite way of expressing, and Ambrose lands on exactly(!!!) the same expression. That's no accident and, from a "plagiarism" perspective, it's unforgivable - with the proviso that there may have been an editing or footnoting error.

As for Barnes' motivation for pointing this out, I have to admit to seeing your explanation as a real stretch, though I try not to reject things out of hand...

We're told businesses have souls, which is surely the most terrifying news in the world. - Gilles Deleuze

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Snellius (100 posts) Click to EMail Snellius Click to send private message to Snellius Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jan-06-02, 12:43 PM (ET)
Reply to post #10
16. "Too Clever For Someone Like Barnes"
Fred Barnes is no intellectual genius. If you've seen him on FOX's Beltway Boys, you know he has never had an original thought in his life.

I'm not a great admirer of Ambrose as a historian, but his "plagiarism" is really very minor and could very well be due to an error by one of his researchers or editors.

Fred Barnes motives, however, are much more interesting.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (5573 posts) Click to EMail IndianaGreen Click to send private message to IndianaGreen Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jan-06-02, 12:16 PM (ET)
Reply to post #8
12. "the book in question speaks well of George McGovern"
a highly decorated bombardier during WWII. McGovern was the 1972 Democratic peace candidate against poker-playing whiskey-drinking safely-back-in-the-States Richard Nixon.

Ambrose spoke of how McGovern did not bring up his war record during the campaign. Actually, McGovern's heroism was well-known among doves. It was his WWII bombing experience that turned McGovern against the Vietnam War.

I think that Fred Barnes, a plagiarizer himself, is just upset that Stephen Ambrose did not dedicate half a book to John Wayne and Ronald Reagan's heroism (they stayed in Hollywood making movies) instead of writing about McGovern's unit and McGovern.

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Sagan (592 posts) Click to EMail Sagan Click to send private message to Sagan Click to view user profile Click to send message via ICQ Click to check IP address of the poster
Jan-06-02, 12:23 PM (ET)
Reply to post #12
14. "Ding ding ding!"

We have a winner!

I'm sure Barnes got all hot and bothered that Ambrose spoke favorably about the "pansy socialist" George McGovern, instead of dedicating the book to "heroes" like Nixon, Wayne and Reagan.

People like George McGovern make our modern day right-wing Chickenhawks look bad, so they must be discredited in any way possible.


"There is one safeguard known generally to the wise, which is an advantage and security to all, but especially to Democracies as against despots: suspicion." -- Demosthenes

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AntiSmirk (281 posts) Click to EMail AntiSmirk Click to send private message to AntiSmirk Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jan-06-02, 12:34 PM (ET)
Reply to post #14
15. "Ding Ding Ding is right"
I agree, Sagan. This has more to do with punishing Ambrose (whose works I greatly enjoy) for daring to show someone like McGovern in a positive light. I don't agree with Ambrose's poitics but as a historical writer he is very good. In his book Citizen Soldier, he was openly critical of some US Army policies during WWII, something that I'm sure also peeves the military-can-do-no-wrong wingnuts.
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0007 Donating Member (863 posts) Click to EMail 0007 Click to send private message to 0007 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jan-06-02, 01:49 PM (ET)
Reply to post #12
18. "I have much respect"
for George McGovern, he's twice the man John Wayne was.

Reagan lied about having WWII expericence and become president, at least John Wayne was put to some positive use.

This is old stuff! Who care?

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Sagan (592 posts) Click to EMail Sagan Click to send private message to Sagan Click to view user profile Click to send message via ICQ Click to check IP address of the poster
Jan-06-02, 04:36 PM (ET)
Reply to post #18
19. "I care..."

If we can't get history right, we'll never learn.

Interpreting history is open for debate. Falsifying it must be brought to light each and every time, lest the momentum of revisionism build. God knows, it's bad enough already.


"There is one safeguard known generally to the wise, which is an advantage and security to all, but especially to Democracies as against despots: suspicion." -- Demosthenes

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Rabideau (743 posts) Click to EMail Rabideau Click to send private message to Rabideau Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jan-06-02, 12:49 PM (ET)
17. "Ambrose concedes to mistake"
Childers and he both classy:

In a statement issued Saturday through his publisher, the Simon & Schuster division of Viacom, Ambrose said, ``Dr. Childers is correct. I made a mistake for which I am sorry. It will be corrected in future editions of the book.''

Childers, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania, told The New York Times for Sunday editions, ``I think it is a classy thing to do, and I appreciate it.''

snip

This is from an updated version of the AP story

We're told businesses have souls, which is surely the most terrifying news in the world. - Gilles Deleuze

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