166||0|0yes 0|0|13 year old shot in head at Gun Show%21|matcom||08:06:01|07/15/2002|%3Csnip%3E%0D%0A%0D%0ANORCROSS%2C Ga. %28AP%29 - A 13-year-old boy who was shot in the head while attending a gun show with his father remained in critical condition early Monday. %0D%0AStephen King%2C of Prattville%2C Ala.%2C was struck in the right eye by a single bullet that lodged in his brain. He underwent surgery at Scottish Rite Children%27s Hospital in Atlanta. %0D%0A%0D%0APolice said he and his father%2C Anthony Grant%2C were visiting from Montgomery%2C Ala.%2C to attend the gun show Sunday. Grant%2C 38%2C said his son was standing on his left side and facing a vendor%27s counter when the gun fired. %0D%0A%0D%0AIt was unclear how the shooting happened or whose gun%2C a .38 caliber revolver%2C was involved. %0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fap.tbo.com%2Fap%2Fbreaking%2FMGAD66P8O3D.html%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fhome.attbi.com%2F%7Ematcom%2Fcid.gif %0D%0A %5Bfont size%3D%221%22%5D When they took the fourth amendment%2C I was quiet because I didn%27t deal drugs.%0D%0AWhen they took the sixth amendment%2C I was quiet because I was innocent. %0D%0AWhen they took the second amendment%2C I was quiet because I didn%27t own a gun.%0D%0A%5Bb%5DNow they%27ve taken the first amendment%2C and I can say nothing about it. %5B%2Fb%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A http%3A%2F%2Fhome.attbi.com%2F%7Ematcom%2Fmoon.gif%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bmarquee%5D%5B%2Fmarquee%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 1|1|Why didn%27t he shoot back%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F|patsified||08:55:32|07/15/2002|I have to assume that everyone at the show was armed%3B it has been my understanding%2C from the Freepsters%2C that when we all have guns%2C no one will ever be harmed again unless they are evildoers.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat went wrong here%3F Oh%2C the humanity%21%0D%0A%3Anopity%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%222%22 face%3D%22Arial%22%5DLisa%2C The Homesick Texan%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Arial%22%5DVisit my Patsy Cline website %22Patsified%21%22%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.imaginethat.tierranet.com%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.imaginethat.tierranet.com%2Fimages%2Ffacekey.jpg%5B%2Ffont%5D|0 5|2|Actually the show%27s rules forbid anyone from being armed|nick_danger||10:02:11|07/15/2002|Only law enforcement officers are allowed to have loaded weapons.%0D%0A%0D%0ASomebody apparently broke the show rules and at least two of the basic rules of firearm safety.%0D%0A%0D%0AWith thousands of gun shows held each year%2C attended by millions of people%2C one might expect this kind of thing to happen more often. I%27ve heard of two shooting accidents at gun shows this year. That is very unusual.%0D%0A%0D%0AI went to a gun show yesterday BTW. I felt perfectly safe. For those who don%27t know me%2C I own no guns. I went looking for old cameras%2C and picked up a nice Kodak Retina for my collection.|1 10|3|Let%27s Hope Young Steve Is Able To Pick Up A New Retina Too|Dick Tater||10:09:46|07/15/2002|I wonder why the kid has a different last name than his father.|5 6|2|Guns shows I%27ve attended in PA|rmpalmer||10:04:47|07/15/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jul-15-02 AT 10:05 AM (ET)[/font][p]They had security at the door. All guns coming in had to be unloaded and the guard would put in a length of locking plastic %28kinda like plastic cuffs%29 into the action or cylinder of the gun so it was impossible to load it.%0D%0A%0D%0AAlways found it ironic that those who argue the most vehemently that everyone should be armed made sure everyone was disarmed. %0D%0A%0D%0AAnd did you know most gun clubs don%27t allow loaded firearms in the club house.%0D%0A%0D%0AAll the gun people I%27ve ever been around are super-duper careful about loaded firearms.%0D%0A%0D%0ASounds like we had some idjits down in GA who are the ones who give gun owners a bad rep.%0D%0A%0D%0AHope the child is okay. And the idiot pays big for his mistake.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bfont color%3Dblue%5D %5BSMALL%5D%22I see in the near future a crisis approaching. It unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. The money power preys upon the nation in times of peace and conspires against it in times of adversity. It is more despotic than a monarchy%2C more insolent than autocracy%2C more selfish than bureaucracy. It denounces%2C as public enemies%2C all who question its methods or throw light upon its crimes.%0D%0AI have two great enemies%2C the Southern Army in front of me %26 the financial institutions at the rear%3B the latter is my greatest foe. Corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow%2C and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until the wealth is aggregated in the hands of a few%2C and the Republic is destroyed.%22%0D%0APresident Abraham Lincoln%2C Nov 21%2C 1864%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AMr. Bush is not a real reformer%3B he just plays one on TV.- Paul Krugman%0D%0ASome day he is going to try to give a war and nobody is going to come.%22 Helen Thomas on our Imperial pResident%0D%0A%0D%0AMy message to Chimpy%3A Don%27t let your mind wander%2C it%27s too little to be out by itself.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%5B%2FSMALL%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D|1 20|3|Same in California|nick_danger||10:25:08|07/15/2002|%5Bb%5D%22All guns coming in had to be unloaded and the guard would put in a length of locking plastic %28kinda like plastic cuffs%29 into the action or cylinder of the gun so it was impossible to load it.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AHowever%2C guns out on the tables for sale do not have such devices. Maybe they should%2C or maybe we should have mandatory gun safety education in public schools.|6 39|4|Same in Mass. and N.H.|LibertarianMan2002||11:37:32|07/15/2002|Every gun club that I have been to does not allow a loaded firearm into the building. The penalty at my club is loss of membership for life.%0D%0A%0D%0AAt gun shows I have attended%2C people attending guns shows are either not allowed to bring in firearms OR they must be unloaded. Some shows requires that the gun %28and any ammunition%29 be left with security personnel.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants%3B it is the creed of slaves.%22 %28William Pitt%2C 1783%29%5B%2Ffont%5D|20 2|1|Tragic|orwell||09:44:11|07/15/2002|Another truly tragic story. Let%27s hope the child makes it.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%223%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DO %3Askull%3A%5B%2Ffont%5D|0 3|1|Ugh|jiacinto||09:44:39|07/15/2002|How horrible. I wonder what the right wing NRA apologists are saying right now. |0 4|2|Apologist%3F|Liberal Classic||09:47:56|07/15/2002|Isn%27t it enough to say that one regrets the child is wounded%3F Apparently not. %0D%0A%0D%0AHow many people actually die at gun shows%3F Few. %0D%0A%0D%0AA tragedy is not prima facia evidence that guns should be banned. Sometimes it is only a accident.%0D%0A%0D%0A|3 8|3|Not an Accident. It%27s a Tragedy.|XNASA||10:06:50|07/15/2002|An accident is when someone slips and falls on the ice.%0D%0A%0D%0AA tragedy is when a 13 year old gets shot in the head at a gunshow.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22In America%2C anybody can be president. That%27s one of the risks you take.%22 - Adlai Stevenson%5B%2Ffont%5D|4 13|4|A tragedy and a major f%2A%2A%2Aup|nick_danger||10:17:52|07/15/2002|It is possible to handle guns safely. Millions of people do so every day. This was a case of negligence. At the Atlanta show%2C all guns were checked at the entrance to ensure that they were not loaded. Some IDIOT had to have deliberately loaded a gun and then handled it in a negligent manner to make this shooting occur.|8 14|4|Perhaps a tragic accident%3F|Liberal Classic||10:19:26|07/15/2002|A tragedy may be when someone falls into icy water. A shooting may be accidental. Both are tragic. Neither are intentional.%0D%0A%0D%0AIs a tragic accident with a firearm always a crime%2C whereas other sorts of tragic accidents are just accidents%3F No%2C I would say it depends on the circumstances surrounding the cause of death%2C not the cause of death itself. If someone was negligent with their firearm which led as a precipitious cause of death of this young man%2C then the person responsible should pay. Likewise if a person causes someone to fall into icy water and die. It isn%27t that the person was killed by a bullet or hypothermia. Rather%2C it is the potential negligence leading to the circumstances of the death.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ll repeat that just to be clear. If someone%27s negligence led to this boy%27s death%2C then I expect they should be sanctioned with criminal charges%2C a civil suit%2C or both. However%2C because some man may have been negligent at a gun show does not mean on its face that I will be negligent at a gun show. Likewise because someone dies does not mean you should outlaw ice skating or bungee jumping. If the person running the bungee jump leads to the death of a jumper through negligence then by all means sanction the proprietor. Do not ban bungee jumping or ice skating itself.%0D%0A%0D%0AThis is why I say people who want to ban guns anthropomorphize firearms. %0D%0A%0D%0AI don%27t want to whip the dead horse%2C I just want to toss in my opposing viewpoint. If what I say is inappropriate%2C please ask the moderators to fix me.|8 29|5|You Assume............|XNASA||11:08:32|07/15/2002|............that people who don%27t own guns%2C want them banned.%0D%0A%0D%0AThat%27s not the case. But you use that point to enforce your view.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22In America%2C anybody can be president. That%27s one of the risks you take.%22 - Adlai Stevenson%5B%2Ffont%5D|14 33|6|XNASA I did not say that|Liberal Classic||11:31:30|07/15/2002|%5Bi%5DYou assume... that people who don%27t own guns%2C want them banned.%0D%0A%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AWith all due respect please read my post again. I did not say that people who don%27t own guns want them banned. Neither did I say all Democrats are gun-banners%2C nor did I say that you particularly wanted them banned. I said%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5D...people who want to ban guns anthropomorphize firearms. %5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AThis is my observation of those people who do advocate the banning of private ownership of firearms%2C especially the most vociferous among them.%0D%0A%0D%0AI expect this message board to be hostile to this point of view%2C and so you telling me that I %22use that point to enforce your view%22 comes as little suprise.|29 9|3|Guns|jiacinto||10:09:08|07/15/2002|I hate guns. I dislike them. I don%27t want them to be banned%2C but I am highly critical of the whole gun industry. |4 12|3|How many....|Cheswick||10:13:43|07/15/2002|%3C%3C%3C%3CHow many people actually die at gun shows%3F Few.%3E%3E%3E %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AHow many people were killed at the Million Mom March%3F None.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22I was trying to get out of harms way%22%0D%0ABush on his 9-11 wac-a-mole imitation%5B%2Ffont%5D|4 15|4|No one has ever died at any kind of demonstration%3F|Liberal Classic||10:21:14|07/15/2002|Good grief. %0D%0A%0D%0AWhat if someone collaspses of heat stroke at a march%3F Are you going to blame the political cause%3F|12 17|5|Spectators are killed at auto races almost every year|nick_danger||10:22:43|07/15/2002|Where is the bleating and braying to ban auto racing%3F|15 19|6|Perhaps|Liberal Classic||10:25:05|07/15/2002|The environmentalists%3F|17 43|6|Ok..let%27s ban auto racing%21%21|Forkboy||12:37:10|07/15/2002|or at least just Nascar...three hours of turning to the left is not fun %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DThis was once the land of dreams now these dreams have turned to greed%0D%0AIn the midst of all this wealth the poor are left to help themselves%0D%0AA capitalist%27s democracy no one said that freedom%27s free %0D%0ALady Liberty rots away no truth%2C no justice-the American way%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.rc2000godzilla.com%2Fmza%2Fmultimedia%2FGodzilla%2FGodzilla%2FGodzillaThumb280198.jpg%5B%2Ffont%5D|17 99|4|The MMM folks...|PorcupinePhil||04:09:47|07/19/2002|DID physically attack people for carrying signs that they did not agree with. I guess the MMM is opposed to gun violence%2C but regular everyday violence by their members is OK with them. Oh%2C wait. Didn%27t one of the MMM organizers go to jail for killing somebody with a handgun after the March%3F I guess gun violence IS ok with them%2C provided THEY are the ones with the guns....%0D%0A%0D%0AI wonder what ever happened with the lawsuit against the Maine MMM president by the Hiram Maxim Historical Society%3F|12 23|3|Few die%3F|motivated||10:40:09|07/15/2002|%5Bi%5DHow many people actually die at gun shows%3F Few. %5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s like Rumsfeld justifying civilian deaths in Afghanistan.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Only a few people ever die at a Gun Show%2C but it is necessary that a few people do so we can keep the hope alive that one day all Americans will own guns.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AOh shit....I just posted on another %22gun thread%22. Somebody shoot me%21%21%21%0D%0A%0D%0A%3Asmoke%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A|4 24|4|I would wager that death from cardiac arrest at gun shows|nick_danger||10:45:39|07/15/2002|Outnumbers shooting deaths by a factor of 100.|23 38|4|How many is too many and how few is too few%3F|Liberal Classic||11:36:48|07/15/2002|So%2C you are saying that an accidental shooting of an child by a citizen at a private gun show is equivalent to the accidental bombing of non-combatants in a war%3F Are you saying that this accidental shooting is a war crime%3F Have some sense of proportion%2C please.|23 98|3|Funny thought...|PorcupinePhil||04:06:17|07/19/2002|%22How many people actually die at gun shows%3F Few.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AI recall seeing on a %22hidden camera%22 TV show a while back two idiots who decided they were going to rob a venue where a gun show was being held. They pulled up to the curb%2C got out%2C ran to the doors%2C entered%2C and about five seconds later%2C came tumbling back out%2C shocked to have seen several hundred people standing around with guns in their hands.%0D%0A%0D%0ADeaths at gun shows are a rarity. More people die at Peter%2C Paul%2C and Mary shows than at gun shows.|4 11|2|NRA is a Republican organization.|Festivito||10:13:25|07/15/2002|I imagine they would be saddened by the incident%2C would hope the boy recovers%2C that the safety of the guns at gun shows be reviewed and appropriately changed%2C and that this not be used as fodder to deprive Americans of a right to bear and use arms as an awful automobile accident would not be used to ban Americans from using cars or as a slip and fall on a sidewalk or from a ladder would not ban all Americans from having sidewalks or ladders. But%2C I can only imagine.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DSee %22Access of EVIL%22 starring Dick Cheney and special guest GAO.%5B%2Ffont%5D|3 16|3|Please provide a cite to back up your claim|nick_danger||10:21:43|07/15/2002|%5Bb%5D%22NRA is a Republican organization.%22%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0ASurely you have some proof%3F|11 26|4|They may or may not|charlie||11:00:45|07/15/2002|be a Republican organization%2C but they sure aren%27t your daddy%27s NRA. The leadership is a hotbed of frothing wingnuts.|16 60|4|Here%27s Just One of 1%2C380 I Found on Google|CO Liberal||14:27:46|07/15/2002|When I did a search on %22NRA%22 and %22Oval Office%22.%0D%0A%0D%0A%28I know I pledged to stay out of gun threads%2C but I couldn%27t let this go unchallenged%2C Nick. The evidence in abundantly clear that the NRA is a Republican front organization%2C and has been for years. Just think of all the %22DEFEND FREEDON - Defeat %28insert Democrat%27s name here%29%22 bumper stickers you%27ve seen over the years. They were all printed and distributed by the NRA.%0D%0A%0D%0AThere is no denying which party yhte NRA in in bed with. Now%2C I%27m gonna get out of here before Khbaker tries to engage me in a debate......%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.commondreams.org%2Fheadlines%2F050400-01.htm%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %0D%0A%0D%0ACO Liberal%0D%0A%5BI%5D%28Over 5%2C100 Messages Posted%29%5B%2FI%5D%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plauder-smilies.de%2Fmulti.gif%0D%0A%0D%0A%22He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don%27t let that fool you. He really is an idiot.%22 - Groucho Marx%2C prophetically describing George W. Bush%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmacleod.com%2Fsiteimagesfolder%2Fgroucho.gif %0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fus.news2.yimg.com%2Fus.yimg.com%2Fp%2Fnm%2F20020705%2Fmdf64836.jpg%0D%0AWelkome to Bush%27s Amerika.%5B%2Ffont%5D|16 66|5|I read the whole thing twice%2C CO|nick_danger||14:54:21|07/15/2002|And didn%27t see anything indicating that the NRA is inherently a Republican organization. Yes%2C it%27s %22proud%22 of its ties to %27W%27%2C and I%27m sure most of the NRA%2FILA%27s money goes to Republican candidates.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe problem is our party platform. If Democrats were more supportive of the RKBA you would see more support going to Democratic candidates.|60 69|4|Oh%2C I think there is proof enough.|Festivito||15:03:18|07/15/2002|Their spokesperson%2C Moses%2C stumps for Republicans showing up at the expensive donor dinners%2C per my own eyes.%0D%0A%0D%0AAt an NRA activist meeting held in California in February 2000%2C NRA First Vice President Kayne B. Robinson alluded to George W. Bush saying%3A %22If we win we%27ll have a president%2C with at least one of the people that%27s running%2C a president where we work out of their office - unbelievably friendly relations.%22%0D%0A%5Bi%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.gunlawsuits.org%2Ffeatures%2Fpress%2Frelease.asp%3FRecord%3D296%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DNot that everyone in the NRA is a Republican%2C but%2C the organization is bent.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DSee %22Access of EVIL%22 starring Dick Cheney and special guest GAO.%5B%2Ffont%5D|16 41|2|They%27re saying it%27s the fault of Clinton%27s pecker...|hackwriter||11:45:14|07/15/2002|What do you THINK they%27re saying%3F|3 107|2|What anyone can say based upon the facts available is...|Ace2u||11:03:27|07/23/2002|That show rules may have been violated.%0D%0A%0D%0AProper gun handling was not exercised.%0D%0A%0D%0AAn accident happened that severely injured a child.%0D%0A%0D%0ANow%2C if a car had slipped into gear in the parking lot of an ice cream stand and injured a child%2C your response would be%3F%3F%3F%0D%0A|3 7|1|it%27s goons like this|BushHeckler||10:06:27|07/15/2002|that give responsible gun owners a bad name.%0D%0A%0D%0Ai feel bad for the kid. to alot of people%2C the gun show is a big deal. he was probably really excited to go. it%27s like going to a circus and having a clown run you over with the clownmobile.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0ATimm Marshall - President 2016%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.access-now.net%2Fbush%2Fbuddy_jesus.jpg%0D%0Awww.access-now.net%2Fbush%5B%2Ffont%5D|0 18|2|I hate clowns|nick_danger||10:23:26|07/15/2002|A lot of kids have been traumatized by them.|7 32|3|and alot of kids...|BushHeckler||11:25:39|07/15/2002|have been traumatized by guns... weird.%0D%0A%0D%0Ai guess we%27ll definitely have to keep firearms out of the hands or our nation%27s clowns.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0ATimm Marshall - President 2016%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.access-now.net%2Fbush%2Fbuddy_jesus.jpg%0D%0Awww.access-now.net%2Fbush%5B%2Ffont%5D|18 37|4|Clowns with guns|nick_danger||11:35:56|07/15/2002|Now THAT%27S a scary thought%21|32 100|5|Didn%27t...|PorcupinePhil||04:12:09|07/19/2002|England just have a bank robbery in which three clowns with guns took down a bank%3F I%27m not making this up...|37 21|1|Hey. It is Clinton%27s Fault. Faux News will report that Clinton did it.|DEM FAN||10:26:04|07/15/2002|Everything is Clinton%27s Fault.|0 22|1|Heston|carrowsboy||10:36:08|07/15/2002|I wonder if Charleton will pay the kid a visit in the hospital%3F Or maybe that cartoon bird they have that advertises gun safety.%0D%0A%0D%0AI can see old Chuck now getting his pic taken with the boy while holding an NRA membership card.|0 25|2|That%27s absurd|nick_danger||10:46:42|07/15/2002|Mr. Heston had nothing to do with the shooting. The NRA has been promoting safe gun handling since 1871.|22 28|3|gun owner%2Cdemocrat%2Cand sane|Ardee||11:05:00|07/15/2002|I have collected weapons for years%2Cgave up hunting some time ago but still love to be out in the field with my sons while they hunt deer%2Cturkey and feral pig.Ive attended hundreds of gun shows and always wondered at the fools who have to unload at the door.California law says no weapon is to be transported in a loaded fashion and %2Cin fact%2Cthe weapon must be in a locked case and the ammo in a separate and locked case.%0D%0A%0D%0AIve purchased several weapons at gun shows over the years%2Cgot a beautiful 30%2F40 Krag last year in fact%28it was my first deer rifle as a kid thus a nostalgia purchase%7D.I know of no seller who would load or allow a customer to load a weapon at the counter in a show%2Che%27d lose his sellers permit in a heartbeat and most responsible gun owners would turn his ass in immediately..........so how that kid got shot is a freaking mystery%2Cbut all those who condemn guns on face value are beating a dead horse and playing into the hands of those who do not want the real problems debated%2Clegal weapons in responsible homes%28mine are in gun safes when not transported to the range%29are not the problem.When some gangster from Chicago%28just an example %29can get on a greyhound and buy up a dozen tech 9%27s after a few hours ride %2Creturning to his crew ready for havoc%2Cthat is the problem with guns%2Cperiod%21%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DWe dont see things as they are%2C%0D%0Awe see them as we are.%0D%0A Anais Nin%0D%0A%0D%0AMere unorthodoxy or dissent from the prevailing mores is not to be condemned.The absence of such voices would be a symptom of grave illness in our society.%0D%0A Earl Warren%0D%0A%0D%0AI wish I could love my country and justice too.%0D%0A Albert Camus %0D%0A%0D%0AEvery gun that is made%2Cevery warship launched%2Cevery rocket fired signifies %2Cin the final sense%2Ca theft from those who hunger and are not fed%2Cthose who are cold and are not clothed.This world in arms is not spending money alone.It is spending the sweat of its laborers%2Cthe genius of its scientists%2Cthe hopes of its children.This is not a way of life at all in any true sense.Under clouds of war it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron.%0D%0A Dwight David Eisenhower%5B%2Ffont%5D|25 83|3|the NRAs only purpose anymore|riotbabe||16:45:11|07/15/2002|is to oppose gun control legislation. ANY gun control legislaation.%0D%0A%0D%0Ai do not like guns. i had my fill of guns in the army. i will never own a gun. but i will support the second amendment%2C as it is a part of the bill of rights. the second amendment IMPLIES registration is the best way to handle citizen gun ownership%28%22a well-regulated militia%29. the NRA cannot handle ANY restriction on firearms. that is why i consider them so radical.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22lai%2C lai lai..%22 -paul simon %22the boxer%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%22lie%2C lie lie%22 - gw bush with his mouth %0D%0Aopen%5B%2Ffont%5D|25 85|4|No%2C you%27re thinking of the GOA|khbaker||16:57:44|07/15/2002|The NRA still %22compromises.%22 It certainly did so when it comes to the Brady Bill %28though it was successfully painted by the anti-gun forces as being against everything.%29 And it does other things%2C too%2C specifically gun safety training%28%21%29 %28something Andrew McKelvey%27s %22Americans for Gun Safety%22 absolutely does %5Bi%5Dnot%5B%2Fi%5D do%2C nor any other anti-gun organization%29 hunter safety training%2C police marksmanship training%2C range officer training%2C instructor training%2C etc. %0D%0A%0D%0AIt also supports the shooting sports pretty vigorously. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Ddarkgreen size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22If liberty means anything at all%2C it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.%22 %0D%0AGeorge Orwell %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it%27s not an individual right or that it%27s too much of a public safety hazard%2C don%27t see the danger in the big picture. They%27re courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don%27t like.%22 Alan Dershowitz%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Perhaps the most accurate conclusion one can reach with any confidence is that the core meaning of the Second Amendment is a populist %2F republican %2F federalism one%3A Its central object is to arm %27We the People%27 so that ordinary citizens can paricipate in the collective defense of their community and their state. But it does so not through directly protecting a right on the part of states or other collectivities%2C assertable by them against the federal government%2C to arm the populace as they see fit. Rather the amendment achieves its central purpose by assuring that the federal government may not disarm individual citizens without some unusually strong justification consistent with the authority of the states to organize their own militias. That assurance in turn is provided through recognizing a right %28admittedly of uncertain scope%29 on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in the defense of themselves and their homes -- not a right to hunt for game%2C quite clearly%2C and certainly not a right to employ firearms to commit aggressive acts against other persons -- a right that directly limits action by Congress or by the Executive Branch and may well%2C in addition%2C be among the privileges or immunities of United States citizens protected by %15 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment against state or local government action.%22 Laurence Tribe%2C American Constitutional Law 902 n. 221 %282000%29%5B%2Ffont%5D|83 27|1|Somebody straighten me out here...|patsified||11:02:39|07/15/2002|For the record%2C I am neither pro-gun nor anti-gun. There is a rifle in my home. We know how to use it safely%2C etc.%0D%0A%0D%0AI also think that many Americans have a strange love affair with firearms that I just don%27t get.%0D%0A%0D%0AI also think it%27s ironic that my pal who is a detective has to go in every 6 months and prove her firearms skills in order to retain her job%2C but Bubba pretty much just has to breathe in and out to qualify for arming himself with everything except anthrax powder%2C fairly legally and easily. He doesn%27t have to prove a whole heckuvalot%2C every 6 months or otherwise.%0D%0A%0D%0ANow%2C then.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ve never been to a gun show%2C thus I was assuming everyone there would be armed to the teeth. I learned on this thread that there are very few deaths at gun shows because no one is allowed to have a loaded gun at a gun show. But all this time I%27ve been told that if every one of us carried a loaded gun%2C we%27d all be safer%3F Why are people forced to disarm at gun shows%3F Are the gun show people admitting that loaded guns are unsafe%3F By asking me to disarm%2C shouldn%27t I be angry that I am being made less safe than I prefer to be%3F What%27s going on%3F Help me out.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnother question%3A if you are in a CCW state and you have a CCW license%2C can you then take an armed weapon into a gun show%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m not asking these things to be an asshole%2C I really want someone to inform me here.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%222%22 face%3D%22Arial%22%5DLisa%2C The Homesick Texan%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Arial%22%5DVisit my Patsy Cline website %22Patsified%21%22%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.imaginethat.tierranet.com%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.imaginethat.tierranet.com%2Fimages%2Ffacekey.jpg%5B%2Ffont%5D|0 34|2|Cite%2C please|nick_danger||11:33:08|07/15/2002|You wrote%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5D%22But all this time I%27ve been told that if every one of us carried a loaded gun%2C we%27d all be safer%3F%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0ASays who%3F|27 40|2|CCW and Gun Show|rmpalmer||11:42:18|07/15/2002|As far as I know - nope your CCW doesn%27t allow you to carry loaded gun into gun show if they have a policy of no loaded weapons. Private property%2C so they can set their own rules. A store can request the same.%0D%0A%0D%0AAs to the hypocrisy or irony - can%27t answer that - always thought it kind of funny too.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bfont color%3Dblue%5D %5BSMALL%5D%22I see in the near future a crisis approaching. It unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. The money power preys upon the nation in times of peace and conspires against it in times of adversity. It is more despotic than a monarchy%2C more insolent than autocracy%2C more selfish than bureaucracy. It denounces%2C as public enemies%2C all who question its methods or throw light upon its crimes.%0D%0AI have two great enemies%2C the Southern Army in front of me %26 the financial institutions at the rear%3B the latter is my greatest foe. Corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow%2C and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until the wealth is aggregated in the hands of a few%2C and the Republic is destroyed.%22%0D%0APresident Abraham Lincoln%2C Nov 21%2C 1864%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AMr. Bush is not a real reformer%3B he just plays one on TV.- Paul Krugman%0D%0ASome day he is going to try to give a war and nobody is going to come.%22 Helen Thomas on our Imperial pResident%0D%0A%0D%0AMy message to Chimpy%3A Don%27t let your mind wander%2C it%27s too little to be out by itself.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%5B%2FSMALL%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D|27 46|2|Some answers to your questions|khbaker||12:59:11|07/15/2002|%5Bfont color%3Dblue%5DI also think it%27s ironic that my pal who is a detective has to go in every 6 months and prove her firearms skills in order to retain her job%2C but Bubba pretty much just has to breathe in and out to qualify for arming himself with everything except anthrax powder%2C fairly legally and easily. He doesn%27t have to prove a whole heckuvalot%2C every 6 months or otherwise.%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AYour pal carries a firearm for self-protection%2C probably concealed. On top of that she has a legal duty to provide protection for other citizens%2C and to apprehend criminals. She has a %5Bi%5Dduty%5B%2Fi%5D to go armed%2C as an adjunct to her profession. Security guards are required to qualify at least annually as well. Individual citizens who apply for concealed-carry permits must also %28in most jurisdictions%29 shoot %22qualification%22 of some kind or other%2C but these people are not responsible %28by law%29 for the protection of others. Defending %5Bi%5Dyourself%5B%2Fi%5D realistically doesn%27t require that much skill. Still%2C most jurisdictions do require requalifying every year or two. For hunting%2Fsporting weapons%2C there are no such requirements %28except for minors - many jurisdictions require a Hunter Safety course in order for minors to get a hunting license or game tag.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dblue%5DBut all this time I%27ve been told that if every one of us carried a loaded gun%2C we%27d all be safer%3F %5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0ANo%2C you%27ve heard the expression %22An armed society is a polite society.%22 The anti-gun forces like to paint the gun-rights groups as wanting to %22arm everyone%22 when that is patently not the case. Are there fringe individuals and groups who espouse this%3F Yes. Do the mainstream gun owners agree%3F Hardly. Gun ownership should be a %5Bi%5Dchoice%5B%2Fi%5D%2C not a mandate. Freedom means having the right %5Bi%5Dnot%5B%2Fi%5D to do something%2C too. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dblue%5DAre the gun show people admitting that loaded guns are unsafe%3F %5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AGuns very seldom are %22unsafe%22 - it%27s the person handling the gun that%27s the problem. A gun is a mechanical device%2C and as we know%2C all mechanical devices can fail%2C though this is very rare. There is a short list of rules for safe gun handling. In every %22accidental%22 shooting%2C at least one of these rules is broken. In most%2C at least two are.%0D%0A%0D%0AStill%2C the number of deaths by accidental gunshot is at an all-time low%2C and its been going down for as long as we%27ve been keeping record - despite the ever-increasing number of firearms %28particularly handguns%29 in circulation. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dblue%5DBy asking me to disarm%2C shouldn%27t I be angry that I am being made less safe than I prefer to be%3F What%27s going on%3F Help me out.%5B%2Ffont%5D %0D%0A%0D%0AAt a gun show%2C a large number of people are present%2C and a lot of gun handling is going on. And this is %5Bi%5Dnot%5B%2Fi%5D at a range setting. The chance of mishandling a gun %28allowing a muzzle to point at a person%2C for instance%29 is very%2C very high. In order to minimize the risk%2C guns are required to be unloaded. Only the security guards %28off duty cops in almost all cases%29 and the licensed dealers are allowed to be armed with loaded firearms. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dblue%5DAnother question%3A if you are in a CCW state and you have a CCW license%2C can you then take an armed weapon into a gun show%3F%5B%2Ffont%5D I don%27t know for absolute certain%2C but I believe that CCW is prohibited at gun shows. If you bring it in%2C it must be unloaded and secured.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Ddarkgreen size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22If liberty means anything at all%2C it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.%22 %0D%0AGeorge Orwell %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it%27s not an individual right or that it%27s too much of a public safety hazard%2C don%27t see the danger in the big picture. They%27re courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don%27t like.%22 Alan Dershowitz%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Perhaps the most accurate conclusion one can reach with any confidence is that the core meaning of the Second Amendment is a populist %2F republican %2F federalism one%3A Its central object is to arm %27We the People%27 so that ordinary citizens can paricipate in the collective defense of their community and their state. But it does so not through directly protecting a right on the part of states or other collectivities%2C assertable by them against the federal government%2C to arm the populace as they see fit. Rather the amendment achieves its central purpose by assuring that the federal government may not disarm individual citizens without some unusually strong justification consistent with the authority of the states to organize their own militias. That assurance in turn is provided through recognizing a right %28admittedly of uncertain scope%29 on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in the defense of themselves and their homes -- not a right to hunt for game%2C quite clearly%2C and certainly not a right to employ firearms to commit aggressive acts against other persons -- a right that directly limits action by Congress or by the Executive Branch and may well%2C in addition%2C be among the privileges or immunities of United States citizens protected by %15 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment against state or local government action.%22 Laurence Tribe%2C American Constitutional Law 902 n. 221 %282000%29%5B%2Ffont%5D|27 49|3|Please note that khbaker|sangha||13:24:49|07/15/2002|did not answer the question %22Are the gun show people admitting that loaded guns are unsafe%3F %22%0D%0A%0D%0AAll he said is that people with loaded guns are unsafe%2C that accidents are caused by people who break one of the gun safety %22rules%22 and that accidental shootings are down.%0D%0A%0D%0ANothing about the irony of guns shows prohibiting loaded guns for a group of people who generally support CCW %28of loaded guns%29 because it makes them safer.|46 53|4|CCW by trained%2C licenced people %21%3D random people pawing guns|nick_danger||13:52:40|07/15/2002|Your straw is showing%2C scarecrow.%0D%0A%0D%0AIf you can find statistical evidence that liberalized concealed carry laws increase risk to the general public%2C please do so now.|49 55|5|You%27re using the straw man|sangha||14:02:53|07/15/2002|I did not say %22CCW by trained%2C licenced people %3D random people pawing guns%22%0D%0A%0D%0AI merely pointed out that khbaker response was non-responsive%2C so please stop trying to refute a point I did not make.%0D%0A%0D%0AP.S. CCW does not require %22train%2C licensed people%22%0D%0AP.P.S. CCW %21%3D %22random people pawing guns%22. The weapon is CONCEALED. That kind of makes it hard for %22random people%22 to %22paw guns%22%0D%0A%0D%0ANice try|53 68|6|You failed to find support for the irony you alleged|nick_danger||14:56:27|07/15/2002|BTW the only place in the US where you can get a concealed-carry permit without demonstrating competence %28by at passing a course or at least a written exam%29 is Vermont. Every other state has some competency requirement.|55 54|4|Please note that sangha|khbaker||14:01:45|07/15/2002|missed the point. The question asked was moot. I responded to the intent%2C I thought.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dblue%5DNothing about the irony of guns shows prohibiting loaded guns for a group of people who generally support CCW %28of loaded guns%29 because it makes them safer.%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AIn places where CCW is legal%2C less than 5%25 of the eligible population takes advantage. Gun shows %28and most gun shops%29 require patrons to unload their weapons %5Bi%5Dbecause a great deal of gun-handling is going on%5B%2Fi%5D. I see nothing untoward about that requirement%2C as a safety measure. If you are carrying concealed%2C you only draw your weapon for self-protection or to store it. From the reports in this case%2C some dealer did something moronic. Are there moron gun dealers%3F Yes. Are there moron gun owners%3F Yes. Are CCW holders morons%3F It%27s certainly possible%2C but they%27ve proven to be safer than the overwhelming majority of their non-gun-owning neighbors. %0D%0A%0D%0AIf you%27ve ever been to a gun show %28and I%27ve attended several%2C%29 they tend to bring out the unfortunate moron-class in numbers greater than their demographics. In other words%2C the guns aren%27t unsafe - a very few of the handlers are. And it only takes one. Yes%2C we recognize that there are people out there who are dangerous with a gun in their hands. Hell%2C some of these people are dangerous with a plastic fork in their hands.%0D%0A%0D%0AAre loaded guns unsafe%3F Put one on your coffee table. I bet that over a dozen years%2C it won%27t go off by itself.%0D%0A%0D%0AHere%27s a question%3A How do you prevent the morons from having guns without setting up a system that easily allows those in power from preventing %5Bi%5Deveryone%5B%2Fi%5D from having a gun%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Ddarkgreen size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22If liberty means anything at all%2C it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.%22 %0D%0AGeorge Orwell %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it%27s not an individual right or that it%27s too much of a public safety hazard%2C don%27t see the danger in the big picture. They%27re courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don%27t like.%22 Alan Dershowitz%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Perhaps the most accurate conclusion one can reach with any confidence is that the core meaning of the Second Amendment is a populist %2F republican %2F federalism one%3A Its central object is to arm %27We the People%27 so that ordinary citizens can paricipate in the collective defense of their community and their state. But it does so not through directly protecting a right on the part of states or other collectivities%2C assertable by them against the federal government%2C to arm the populace as they see fit. Rather the amendment achieves its central purpose by assuring that the federal government may not disarm individual citizens without some unusually strong justification consistent with the authority of the states to organize their own militias. That assurance in turn is provided through recognizing a right %28admittedly of uncertain scope%29 on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in the defense of themselves and their homes -- not a right to hunt for game%2C quite clearly%2C and certainly not a right to employ firearms to commit aggressive acts against other persons -- a right that directly limits action by Congress or by the Executive Branch and may well%2C in addition%2C be among the privileges or immunities of United States citizens protected by %15 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment against state or local government action.%22 Laurence Tribe%2C American Constitutional Law 902 n. 221 %282000%29%5B%2Ffont%5D|49 58|5|Mor double speak|sangha||14:07:21|07/15/2002|khbaker says %22Gun shows %28and most gun shops%29 require patrons to unload their weapons because a great deal of gun-handling is going on%22%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat khbaker fails to mention is that the guns being handled are the %28unloaded%2C I hope%29 guns being displayed for sale or worship. The loaded guns people are carrying are not being handled by the crowd%2C as even khbaker acknowledged when he said %22If you are carrying concealed%2C you only draw your weapon for self-protection or to store it. %22%0D%0A%0D%0AIf these people aren%27t drawing their CCW weapons%2C then how are those crowds going to paw it%3F|54 61|6|I can see this thread is going to the %22Gun Dungeon%22 shortly.|khbaker||14:31:07|07/15/2002|It%27s a %5Bi%5Dsafety issue%5B%2Fi%5D because if there is a %22great deal of gun handling going on%22 the %5Bi%5Dpossibility%5B%2Fi%5D that someone might take out a carry weapon is increased. %22Let me show you these grips%22 for example.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhen you take out a weapon to show to another person%2C the safety rules say that you %22clear%22 the weapon - unload it%2C and show the person you%27re handing it to that it is unloaded. If someone hands you a weapon%2C YOU clear it and verify that it%27s unloaded. If it%27s just you and the other person%2C then rule %232 %28never point a firearm at anything you aren%27t prepared to destroy%29 is relatively simple. But in a crowded gun show%3F Gun shows require that all weapons carried in be locked open and secured. This guarantees that all guns being handled are unloaded. %0D%0A%0D%0AIn order to make things as SAFE as possible %28and believe it or not%2C the overwhelming majority of us really are interested in gun %5Bi%5Dsafety%5B%2Fi%5D%29 we institute strict rules for certain situations. Gun ranges have rules about handling firearms when someone is downrange. The often have rules about loaded firearms in the range office%2C etc. It%27s to reduce %5Bi%5Drisk%5B%2Fi%5D. Because%2C after all%2C we %5Bi%5Ddo%5B%2Fi%5D understand that a device designed to hurl small metal projectiles at high velocity is something you should handle %5Bi%5Dcarefully%5B%2Fi%5D. %0D%0A%0D%0ACCW has to do with risk when you%27re out in public. Your risk of being accosted in a gun show %28except by a bad%2C overpriced hot dog%29 is essentially zero. Asking attendees to clear their weapons is %5Bi%5Dnot%5B%2Fi%5D IMHO ironic. Honestly%2C I really wouldn%27t have a problem with a CCW permit holder taking his loaded weapon into the show%2C but I understand the reason behind the rule. Incidents like this one are extremely rare. It%27s going to be the moron or the intentional wacko that causes the problem%2C most likely.%0D%0A%0D%0AYou disagree. Isn%27t America a wonderful place where we can agree to disagree%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Ddarkgreen size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22If liberty means anything at all%2C it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.%22 %0D%0AGeorge Orwell %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it%27s not an individual right or that it%27s too much of a public safety hazard%2C don%27t see the danger in the big picture. They%27re courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don%27t like.%22 Alan Dershowitz%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Perhaps the most accurate conclusion one can reach with any confidence is that the core meaning of the Second Amendment is a populist %2F republican %2F federalism one%3A Its central object is to arm %27We the People%27 so that ordinary citizens can paricipate in the collective defense of their community and their state. But it does so not through directly protecting a right on the part of states or other collectivities%2C assertable by them against the federal government%2C to arm the populace as they see fit. Rather the amendment achieves its central purpose by assuring that the federal government may not disarm individual citizens without some unusually strong justification consistent with the authority of the states to organize their own militias. That assurance in turn is provided through recognizing a right %28admittedly of uncertain scope%29 on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in the defense of themselves and their homes -- not a right to hunt for game%2C quite clearly%2C and certainly not a right to employ firearms to commit aggressive acts against other persons -- a right that directly limits action by Congress or by the Executive Branch and may well%2C in addition%2C be among the privileges or immunities of United States citizens protected by %15 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment against state or local government action.%22 Laurence Tribe%2C American Constitutional Law 902 n. 221 %282000%29%5B%2Ffont%5D|58 65|7|How is that possible%3F|sangha||14:41:32|07/15/2002|According to you %22%22If you are carrying concealed%2C you only draw your weapon for self-protection or to store it. %22 If what you said earlier is true%2C then why are people pulling their concealed weapons out to showing the grips%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AYou mouth the party line %28%22If you are carrying concealed%2C you only draw your weapon for self-protection or to store it.%22%29 when it comes to genralities%2C but when it comes to specifics%2C you talk out of the other side of your mouth.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhy can%27t people pull their concealed weapons out on the street and show their friends it%27s grip%3F%0D%0A%0D%0Aquote%3A%22CCW has to do with risk when you%27re out in public.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AUmm%2C these gun shows are opne to the public%2C no%3F%0D%0A%0D%0Aquote%3AYour risk of being accosted in a gun show %28except by a bad%2C overpriced hot dog%29 is essentially zero.%22%0D%0A%0D%0ABecause they don%27t allow people to bring loaded weapons in. Ironic%2C eh%3F %28I forgot%2C you won%27t explain that%29%0D%0A%0D%0Aquote%3A%22Asking attendees to clear their weapons is not IMHO ironic. %22%0D%0A%0D%0AWhy not%3F%0D%0A%0D%0Aquote%3A%22Honestly%2C I really wouldn%27t have a problem with a CCW permit holder taking his loaded weapon into the show%2C but I understand the reason behind the rule.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AIf there%27s a good reason for the ban on loaded weapons%2C then why would you allow loaded weapons in%3F%0D%0A%0D%0Aquote%3A%22 Incidents like this one are extremely rare. It%27s going to be the moron or the intentional wacko that causes the problem%2C most likely.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AHow are %22morons%22 and %22intentional wackos%22 getting their guns%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A|61 71|8|I love exercises in futility%21|khbaker||15:13:51|07/15/2002|When two people who%27s minds are made up try to %22discuss%22 something%2C it is like trying to teach a pig to sing.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dblue%5DAccording to you %22%22If you are carrying concealed%2C you only draw your weapon for self-protection or to store it. %22 If what you said earlier is true%2C then why are people pulling their concealed weapons out to showing the grips%3F%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AWhen you get a bunch of people together who have a common interest%2C they tend to show each other their equipment. True with golf%2C fishing%2C and guns. Human nature. OK%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dblue%5DWhy can%27t people pull their concealed weapons out on the street and show their friends it%27s grip%3F%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AThey can and do. My point was that it%27s much easier to do this safely when you%27re not doing it in a crowded area - and we know it. But you knew that.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dblue%5Dquote%3A%22CCW has to do with risk when you%27re out in public.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AUmm%2C these gun shows are opne to the public%2C no%3F%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AOk%2C ok%2C poor choice of words. However%2C your chances of being mugged or carjacked or witness to a robbery are significantly less at a gun show than at your local Quickee-Mart%2C wouldn%27t you agree%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dblue%5Dquote%3AYour risk of being accosted in a gun show %28except by a bad%2C overpriced hot dog%29 is essentially zero.%22%0D%0A%0D%0ABecause they don%27t allow people to bring loaded weapons in. Ironic%2C eh%3F %28I forgot%2C you won%27t explain that%29%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AInteresting how they %22won%27t allow%22 people to bring guns to schools%2C either%2C but that hasn%27t stopped school shootings%2C has it%3F Only other people with guns manage to do that. One is a risk of %5Bi%5Daccidental%5B%2Fi%5D gunshot. The other is the risk of %5Bi%5Dintentional%5B%2Fi%5D gunshot. If someone was intent on %5Bi%5Dintentionally%5B%2Fi%5D using a gun criminally%2C would they do it where there are armed%2C off-duty police officers present%3F I doubt it. But how many places %28in public%29 have on %5Bi%5Dor%5B%2Fi%5D off-duty cops present%3F Capisce%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dblue%5DIf there%27s a good reason for the ban on loaded weapons%2C then why would you allow loaded weapons in%3F%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0ABecause I tend to trust the people who jump through all the hoops required to get a CCW permit. %28Yes%2C really.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dblue%5DHow are %22morons%22 and %22intentional wackos%22 getting their guns%3F%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AWell%2C there%27s a lot of ways%2C but mostly just like everybody else%2C if they have no criminal record. Here%27s a question %5Bi%5Dyou%5B%2Fi%5D failed to respond to%3A%0D%0A%0D%0AHow do you prevent the morons from having guns without setting up a system that easily allows those in power from preventing everyone from having a gun%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Ddarkgreen size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22If liberty means anything at all%2C it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.%22 %0D%0AGeorge Orwell %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it%27s not an individual right or that it%27s too much of a public safety hazard%2C don%27t see the danger in the big picture. They%27re courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don%27t like.%22 Alan Dershowitz%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Perhaps the most accurate conclusion one can reach with any confidence is that the core meaning of the Second Amendment is a populist %2F republican %2F federalism one%3A Its central object is to arm %27We the People%27 so that ordinary citizens can paricipate in the collective defense of their community and their state. But it does so not through directly protecting a right on the part of states or other collectivities%2C assertable by them against the federal government%2C to arm the populace as they see fit. Rather the amendment achieves its central purpose by assuring that the federal government may not disarm individual citizens without some unusually strong justification consistent with the authority of the states to organize their own militias. That assurance in turn is provided through recognizing a right %28admittedly of uncertain scope%29 on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in the defense of themselves and their homes -- not a right to hunt for game%2C quite clearly%2C and certainly not a right to employ firearms to commit aggressive acts against other persons -- a right that directly limits action by Congress or by the Executive Branch and may well%2C in addition%2C be among the privileges or immunities of United States citizens protected by %15 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment against state or local government action.%22 Laurence Tribe%2C American Constitutional Law 902 n. 221 %282000%29%5B%2Ffont%5D|65 102|8|Unloaded guns at gun shows...|PorcupinePhil||04:21:19|07/19/2002|%22Because they don%27t allow people to bring loaded weapons in. Ironic%2C eh%3F %28I forgot%2C you won%27t explain that%29%22%0D%0A%0D%0Aare easily loaded. All you have to do is insert the magazine and rack the slide. If you went to gun shows%2C you%27d notice lots of dealers with unloaded guns on their hips%2C and you can bet that there is a loaded magazine close by. I%27ve seen dealers throw down on thieves %28without shooting them%2C of course%29 and it never was a problem.%0D%0A%0D%0A|65 86|7|yeah%2C I think it%27s time|ulysses||17:00:29|07/15/2002|moving to Justice%2FPublic Safety in a bit.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DJohn%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DOne ripple can make a movement.%0D%0A%0D%0AOne movement can make a voice.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd one voice can make mighty change.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Fi%5D - Rep. Cynthia McKinney%2C 4%2F20%2F02%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|61 101|6|I%27ve been to literally hundreds%2C if not thousands%2C of gun shows...|PorcupinePhil||04:17:21|07/19/2002|and have never%2C EVER seen anybody worship a gun at one.|58 50|3|Great post...|patsified||13:38:29|07/15/2002|Thanks for your informative%2C cool-headed post. I know this can be a hot topic.%0D%0A%0D%0AIn light of what you wrote%2C I think that everyone should be required to demonstrate his skill regularly%2C just as we have to prove we can operate a motor vehicle safely. It shouldn%27t matter whether a person is defending himself or others%2C because even if Bubba is defending only himself%2C innocent others can still get in the way. I want him to prove %28maybe every few years%3F%29 that he knows what the hell he is doing when he opens fire and that he knows how to load%2C unload and store his arms.%0D%0A%0D%0AAlso%2C yes%2C that is what I%27ve always heard%2C %22An armed society is a polite society.%22 Down in Texas%2C where I%27m from%2C that%27s the general belief.%0D%0A%0D%0AAs I stated%2C I%27m in a %2Areasonable middle%2A on this issue. I think qualified%2C educated people should be allowed to have guns. I don%27t think of it as an inherent %22right%22 because then even children or retarded people would be entitled. If it is a right%2C then everyone who purchases a gun should also be required to join his local state militia%2C as per the Second Amendment. You could say I am carefully%2C warily %22pro-gun%22 more than %22anti-gun.%22 As I said earlier%2C I have a rifle in my home and have no problem with that. It%27s hard%2C though%2C to see what happens every week up here in the Detroit area %28I%27m currently living in Ann Arbor%29. Children up here are being shot and killed at an alarming rate right now. But even so%2C you won%27t find me saying NO GUNS%2C because the coup that took place in December 2000 was enough to convince me that we need to be ready when Ashcroft comes knocking. I used to have an anti-Bush website called %22Edjakated%21%22%2C and I know what I%27m talking about %28I created the pic below%2C it was on the main page of that site%29.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%222%22 face%3D%22Arial%22%5DLisa%2C The Homesick Texan%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Arial%22%5DVisit my Patsy Cline website %22Patsified%21%22%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.imaginethat.tierranet.com%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.imaginethat.tierranet.com%2Fimages%2Fgooberbush.jpg%5B%2Ffont%5D|46 59|4|The %22reasonable middle%22 is where the majority |khbaker||14:11:38|07/15/2002|of gun owners are. I would be%2C too%2C if I were not convinced that there is an active%2C viable effort towards civilian disarmament in this country. %0D%0A%0D%0ASee%2C I %5Bi%5Ddo%5B%2Fi%5D see it as a right - a fundamental one protected by the Second Amendment. And I think if we allow the protection of that right to be gutted in the name of %22public safety%2C%22 then we open the door to do the same to the rest of our rights. Fundamental rights %5Bi%5Dcan%5B%2Fi%5D be restricted%2C but only %5Bi%5Dvery%5B%2Fi%5D narrowly%2C and only with %5Bi%5Dgreat%5B%2Fi%5D need. %0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ve said it elsewhere - when just %5Bi%5Dwhat%5B%2Fi%5D the Second Amendment protects is legally defined%2C and those protections are placed under the umbrella of the 14th Amendment against infringement by the States%2C %5Bi%5Dthen%5B%2Fi%5D I%27ll go back to the %22reasonable middle.%22 But not until then. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Ddarkgreen size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22If liberty means anything at all%2C it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.%22 %0D%0AGeorge Orwell %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it%27s not an individual right or that it%27s too much of a public safety hazard%2C don%27t see the danger in the big picture. They%27re courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don%27t like.%22 Alan Dershowitz%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Perhaps the most accurate conclusion one can reach with any confidence is that the core meaning of the Second Amendment is a populist %2F republican %2F federalism one%3A Its central object is to arm %27We the People%27 so that ordinary citizens can paricipate in the collective defense of their community and their state. But it does so not through directly protecting a right on the part of states or other collectivities%2C assertable by them against the federal government%2C to arm the populace as they see fit. Rather the amendment achieves its central purpose by assuring that the federal government may not disarm individual citizens without some unusually strong justification consistent with the authority of the states to organize their own militias. That assurance in turn is provided through recognizing a right %28admittedly of uncertain scope%29 on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in the defense of themselves and their homes -- not a right to hunt for game%2C quite clearly%2C and certainly not a right to employ firearms to commit aggressive acts against other persons -- a right that directly limits action by Congress or by the Executive Branch and may well%2C in addition%2C be among the privileges or immunities of United States citizens protected by %15 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment against state or local government action.%22 Laurence Tribe%2C American Constitutional Law 902 n. 221 %282000%29%5B%2Ffont%5D|50 62|5|You have a good point...|patsified||14:31:22|07/15/2002|My own thinking on this issue has changed alot since the coup. If they are freely gutting our rights when we%27re armed%2C can you imagine what they%27d do with a completely unarmed citizenry%3F So your points are well taken.%0D%0A%0D%0AI removed my Bush website when the Pentagon started hitting it overwhelmingly every single day%2C even though it was not advertised and never submitted to the search engines. They were slamming it. After I pulled the site%2C I even got an ominous mail from someone at a military site in Virginia%2C asking %22innocently%22 where my site had gone. It scared me to death%2C especially since I%27ve read about people who are hounded in their homes by the Secret Service for their anti-Bush sentiment. Am I glad I have a firearm in my house%3F Yes%2C because they aren%27t going to haul me off to the gulag without at least a %2Asemblance%2A of a fight.%0D%0A%3Atinfoilhat%3A%0D%0A%0D%0AI apologize if I sound like I%27m waffling on this issue%2C but it%27s one of those rare issues where I really am torn%21 Thanks for your kind and informative responses.%0D%0A%0D%0A%28I like this Bush-as-Goober photo%2C I think I%27m a-keepin%27 it%29...%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%222%22 face%3D%22Arial%22%5DLisa%2C The Homesick Texan%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Arial%22%5DVisit my Patsy Cline website %22Patsified%21%22%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.imaginethat.tierranet.com%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.imaginethat.tierranet.com%2Fimages%2Fgooberbush.jpg%5B%2Ffont%5D|59 103|4|Most people ARE in the militia...|PorcupinePhil||04:24:48|07/19/2002|regardless of if they own a weapon or not. The Militia act defines the militia very%2C very broadly. %0D%0A%0D%0AI can see the reasonableness of testing people on gun safety if they carry guns%2C provided it isn%27t just another way to prohibit people from carrying guns. If they dont carry their guns%2C though%2C and just keep them at home%2C why the constant need to test them%3F If you have a car that you never drive on public roads%2C it doesn%27t need to be registered%2C and you don%27t need a drivers license.|50 108|4|Not true...|Ace2u||11:18:47|07/23/2002|%22I think that everyone should be required to demonstrate his skill regularly%2C just as we have to prove we can operate a motor vehicle safely%22%0D%0A%0D%0AI don%27t know about you%2C but the last time I had to demonstrate my ability to operate a motor vehicle was when I was 16. I am now 40...|50 110|4|Also%2C not true...|Ace2u||11:28:02|07/23/2002|%22As I stated%2C I%27m in a %2Areasonable middle%2A on this issue. I think qualified%2C educated people should be allowed to have guns.%22%0D%0A%0D%0ASame restrictions on Voting%2C also%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%22I don%27t think of it as an inherent %22right%22 because then even children or retarded people would be entitled.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0ASo%2C children should be allowed to vote%3F Do you support voting rights for the retarded%3F Where do you draw the line%3F You want tests to exercise your second amendment rights. Why not tests and permits for free speech%3F For the right to vote%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%22If it is a right%2C then everyone who purchases a gun should also be required to join his local state militia%2C as per the Second Amendment.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0APLEASE show me where that is in the Second Amendment%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AYou are on the slippery slope. You advocate restrictions on the second amendment. Why not on the rest of the constitution%3F|50 30|1|Looks like it might be a vendor - they%27re allowed loaded at show|rmpalmer||11:12:56|07/15/2002|%5Bi%5DHere%27s the story - looks like the gun show should%27ve not allowed the vendors to have loaded guns. Probably should%27ve had armed security or hired off-duty cops. %5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AAt Eastman Gun Shows%2C security workers at the front door check all firearms brought into the show. They attach plastic safety ties to the triggers or firing mechanisms of all guns%2C including those on exhibit%2C so they can%27t be fired. %0D%0A%0D%0AVendors%2C though%2C are allowed to carry loaded handguns for protection. They can%27t place the loaded guns on the table or let customers handle them%2C authorities said Sunday. %0D%0A%0D%0AAllowing vendors to carry loaded weapons is %22where the potential danger is%2C%22 said Ron Pafford%2C a Suwanee resident%2C who attended the gun show Sunday.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22I really can%27t imagine how somebody else could get in there with a loaded clip%2C%22 said Pafford%2C who grew up duck hunting with his father. %22When you walk through the door%2C you have two officers who put a zip-tie on any gun%2C pistol or shotgun.%22 Eastman Gun Shows started out in 1981 as a one-time event in Albany. Founded by Matthew Eastman%2C its popularity has grown to the point that 32 shows are scheduled this year%2C a Web site states. %0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.accessatlanta.com%2Fajc%2Fmetro%2F0702%2F15gunshow.html%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bfont color%3Dblue%5D %5BSMALL%5D%22I see in the near future a crisis approaching. It unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. The money power preys upon the nation in times of peace and conspires against it in times of adversity. It is more despotic than a monarchy%2C more insolent than autocracy%2C more selfish than bureaucracy. It denounces%2C as public enemies%2C all who question its methods or throw light upon its crimes.%0D%0AI have two great enemies%2C the Southern Army in front of me %26 the financial institutions at the rear%3B the latter is my greatest foe. Corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow%2C and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until the wealth is aggregated in the hands of a few%2C and the Republic is destroyed.%22%0D%0APresident Abraham Lincoln%2C Nov 21%2C 1864%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AMr. Bush is not a real reformer%3B he just plays one on TV.- Paul Krugman%0D%0ASome day he is going to try to give a war and nobody is going to come.%22 Helen Thomas on our Imperial pResident%0D%0A%0D%0AMy message to Chimpy%3A Don%27t let your mind wander%2C it%27s too little to be out by itself.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%5B%2FSMALL%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D|0 31|1|The gun lobby think their biggest enemies|rocknation||11:21:15|07/15/2002|are %22liberals%22 and %22pacificsts.%22 I say that their biggest enemies are idiots who can%27t exercise the most basic common sense about gun safety and then blubber%2C %22I didn%27t know it was loaded%21%22 %5Bi%5DThey%27re%5B%2Fi%5D the ones who give gun owners a bad name%21%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plauder-smilies.de%2Fparty%2Fylsuper.gif%0D%0A%5Bb%5Drocknation%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A|0 35|2|Agreed 100%25|nick_danger||11:34:48|07/15/2002|We need gun safety education in public schools.%0D%0A%0D%0AA one-hour lecture on the basic rules of safe gun handling would save lives.|31 36|1|reminds me of an old Onion article...|BushHeckler||11:35:34|07/15/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jul-15-02 AT 11:47 AM (ET)[/font][p]http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theonion.com%2Fonion3520%2Fsecond_amendment.html%0D%0A%0D%0A8 year old accidentally exercises second amendment rights.%0D%0A%0D%0ANORFOLK%2C VA%97Gun owners nationwide are applauding the patriotic%2C though accidental%2C exercise of Second Amendment rights by 8-year-old Timothy Cummings Tuesday. %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Timothy is a symbol of American heroism%2C%22 said NRA executive vice president Wayne LaPierre from Cummings%27 bedside at Norfolk General Hospital%2C where the boy is in serious but stable condition from a self-inflicted gunshot wound. %22While praying for his recovery%2C we should all thank God that his inalienable right to keep and bear arms has not been infringed.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AThe incident occurred shortly after Cummings returned from school and found that his parents were absent from the house. Displaying what Second Amendment-rights groups are calling %22good old-fashioned American ingenuity%2C%22 Cummings placed a pair of phone books on a stool to retrieve his father%27s loaded .38-caliber revolver from its hiding place on a closet shelf. After a preliminary backyard investigation of his constitutional rights claimed the life of Pepper%2C the family%27s cocker spaniel%2C Cummings fell on the weapon%2C causing it to discharge into his left thigh. %0D%0A%0D%0A%3Csnip%3E%0D%0A%0D%0A NRA lobbyist Tom Korologos agreed. %22Timothy%27s heroic accident happened because we live in the greatest country in the world%2C%22 he said. %22Had he grown up in Japan%2C England or Russia%2C he wouldn%27t be where he is today.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0A %22Restrictive laws would have kept him %27safe%27 at home%97and they would have justified it by telling us it was for his own good%2C%22 Korologos added. %22That%27s not the type of country I%27d want my children to grow up walking normally in.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0A%3Csnip%3E%0D%0A%0D%0A.....%0D%0A%0D%0Aso let%27s just thank the gun show for accidentally excercizing their second amendment rights and thus keeping america great.%0D%0A%0D%0Aon edit%3A spell check in the future%2C i promise%21%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0ATimm Marshall - President 2016%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.access-now.net%2Fbush%2Fbuddy_jesus.jpg%0D%0Awww.access-now.net%2Fbush%5B%2Ffont%5D|0 42|1|How this tragedy is playing on the gun-oriented boards|nick_danger||12:15:27|07/15/2002|Please read this thread and see if you still think pro-RKBA people are callous%2C unfeeling cretins%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Blink%3Awww.ar15.com%2Fforums%2Ftopic.html%3Fid%3D132404%7CTragedy at gun show in Norcross%2C GA today as discussed on ar15.com%5D|0 44|2|Without looking%2C are they accusing|AdrianInOcala||12:42:02|07/15/2002|%22Anti-Second Amendment%22 protesters of putting bullets into supposedly unloaded display weapons so that unsuspecting patriots will accidentally discharge a weapon they believe to be unloaded%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DAdrian%0D%0AVisit The Washingtoon Times at %5Bhttp%3A%2F%2Fhome.cfl.rr.com%2Fwashingtoontimes%5D updated every evening%5B%2Ffont%5D|42 45|3|No - Please read it|nick_danger||12:48:34|07/15/2002|They%27re offering prayers for the victim and his family%2C and are angry that a vendor at the show made a tragic mistake that makes all gun owners look bad.|44 47|4|From that forum|khbaker||13:04:49|07/15/2002|Here%27s a typical response%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DIf the vendor was at fault and did hand over a loaded weapon to the customer%2C he should be shunned by the entire firearms community and run out of the business for life. We must police our ranks when we can.%0D%0A%0D%0ATragic - senseless - stupid. My prayers go out for the young man.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Ddarkgreen size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22If liberty means anything at all%2C it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.%22 %0D%0AGeorge Orwell %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it%27s not an individual right or that it%27s too much of a public safety hazard%2C don%27t see the danger in the big picture. They%27re courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don%27t like.%22 Alan Dershowitz%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Perhaps the most accurate conclusion one can reach with any confidence is that the core meaning of the Second Amendment is a populist %2F republican %2F federalism one%3A Its central object is to arm %27We the People%27 so that ordinary citizens can paricipate in the collective defense of their community and their state. But it does so not through directly protecting a right on the part of states or other collectivities%2C assertable by them against the federal government%2C to arm the populace as they see fit. Rather the amendment achieves its central purpose by assuring that the federal government may not disarm individual citizens without some unusually strong justification consistent with the authority of the states to organize their own militias. That assurance in turn is provided through recognizing a right %28admittedly of uncertain scope%29 on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in the defense of themselves and their homes -- not a right to hunt for game%2C quite clearly%2C and certainly not a right to employ firearms to commit aggressive acts against other persons -- a right that directly limits action by Congress or by the Executive Branch and may well%2C in addition%2C be among the privileges or immunities of United States citizens protected by %15 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment against state or local government action.%22 Laurence Tribe%2C American Constitutional Law 902 n. 221 %282000%29%5B%2Ffont%5D|45 48|5|There%27s a few|charlie||13:18:36|07/15/2002|supposedly first-person accounts there. A couple of them are saying it was %5Bi%5Dthe father%5B%2Fi%5D who messed up and shot the boy. JIMINY FUCKING CHRISTMAS can you imagine what that%27s like%3F No one would be able to stop me from using the next bullet on myself%2C I couldn%27t bear it.|47 51|1|Tragic.|Devil Dog Dem||13:43:19|07/15/2002|Just plain tragic.|0 52|2|i can only say|xchrom||13:47:32|07/15/2002|it reenforces my pacifist leaning when it comes to guns -- it%27s all just too easy -- two seconds later and we are all offering hopes and prayers for this lad. sad.|51 56|1|Snippets from the Freeper thread on this subject|dw||14:04:37|07/15/2002|How awful...let%27s practice gun safety at all times%2C but especially when the kids arer around. %0D%0A%0D%0AGet ready for a media firestorm folks. %0D%0A%0D%0AAlways treat a gun as it%27s loaded. Apparently this one was. Strangely vague as to who had the gun%2C if only police and security carry ones that are loaded. %0D%0A%0D%0AEveryone knows it is drugs that kill people not guns... %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ABetcha this story is prominently featured tommorrow on ABC%2FCBS%2FNBC.%0D%0A %0D%0A%0D%0AI won%27t be foolish enough to think that the networks would pass this one up. We REALLY don%27t need this.%0D%0A %0D%0A%0D%0ATotaly bogus article%2C onsite report claimed the customer was inquirng about a holster for a sidearm which was at home%2C the holster vendor allegedly offered his sidearm for fitting%2C the customer then allegedly holstered the sidearm and negligently disharged a round into his sons head%2C the elderly leather and holster vendor immediately fell back with a heart attack. If true it is deplorable the father did not admit his avoidable negligence. Instead of stressing the number 1 rule in firearm responsibility we get proaganda.%0D%0A %0D%0A%0D%0AI would like to see an investigation. Guns don%27t just load themselves and fire at random. Charges may be warranted.%0D%0A %0D%0A%0D%0AOh my.. This is so needless. %0D%0A%0D%0ABut%2C to compound this tragedy not only is the boy hurt and the person responsible probably ready to shoot themselves next%2C we are going to have YET ANOTHER round of screaming about the evils of %28GASP%21%29 guns. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe scoccer mom types who don%27t understand machines %28and thus believe they are unpredictable and inherently dangerous%29 and the Liberal gun haters with the chips on their sholders are going to have a field day with this. %0D%0A%0D%0AThey are going to build their altar to a %22safer%22 America right on top of this boy%27s bed in the middle of ICU. %0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s a sad day for everyone from what I can see.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ALast year at a local gun show%2C police caught an %22anti-gun activist%22 roaming the show with a pocket full of .38 ammo loading guns as he %22inspected%22 them. %0D%0A%0D%0AOf course it never hit the papers%2C he was charged with attempted murder %26 plead down to a misdemeanor.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Why does any gun dealer need a loaded weapon in a gun show%3F For self protection%3F%22 %0D%0A%0D%0ASame reason every American has the right to keep and bear arms. Yes%2C for self protection. Why should a gun dealer be disarmed%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Would you let your family attend a gun show that didn%60t prohibit loaded weapons%3F%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AI would NOT let my family attend a gun show or any store that prohibited patrons from their right to keep and bear %28loaded%29 arms.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A|0 91|2|%28Sob sniffle%29 But I Didn%27t Know It Was Loaded%21|rocknation||11:17:31|07/16/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jul-16-02 AT 11:20 AM (ET)[/font][p]%5Bb%5DTotaly bogus article%2C onsite report claimed the customer was inquirng about a holster for a sidearm which was at home%2C the holster vendor allegedly offered his sidearm for fitting%2C the customer then allegedly holstered the sidearm and negligently disharged a round into his sons head%2C the elderly leather and holster vendor immediately fell back with a heart attack. If true it is deplorable the father did not admit his avoidable negligence...%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AWell%2C if this is true%2C and if the vendor%27s sidearm was the one he was carrying%2C then the vendor should have unloaded the sidearm before giving it to the customer%21 Though vendors are allowed to allow to carry to loaded firearms%2C they are not allowed to display them%2C right%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AI would be very interested to know what the trajectory of the bullet was. The angle from which is was fired is pivotal here--especially since%2C as one newspaper reports%2C the shot came %22from behind the counter.%22%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plauder-smilies.de%2Fparty%2Fylsuper.gif%0D%0A%5Bb%5Drocknation%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A|56 94|3|Your%27re close|nick_danger||15:49:42|07/16/2002|%5Bb%5D%22Well%2C if this is true%2C and if the vendor%27s sidearm was the one he was carrying%2C then the vendor should have unloaded the sidearm before giving it to the customer%21%22%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AYes%2C %5Bb%5DAND the customer should have checked the gun himself.%5B%2Fb%5D There is no excuse for failure to do that.%0D%0A%0D%0AI learned the habit by age 10 - Any time someone hands you a gun%2C any time you pick one up%2C the first thing you do is the appropriate procedure %28specific steps depending on the type of gun%29 to verify that it is not loaded. You have to do that EVERY SINGLE TIME. Even if you watched the other guy check it. Even if you think you just checked it yourself and are sure nobody else has handled it.%0D%0A%0D%0AThat%27s how it%27s taught in the military. That%27s how the NRA teaches it. That%27s how you prevent accidents.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5D%22Though vendors are allowed to allow to carry to loaded firearms%2C they are not allowed to display them%2C right%3F%22%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AThat depends on state and local laws%2C rules of the show%2C etc. depending on where the show is located. It may be perfectly legal for the vendor to display a loaded weapon%2C but handing it to a customer that way is FELONY STUPID.|91 111|3|TOTAL Stupidity...|Ace2u||11:35:48|07/23/2002|Handing over a loaded firearm...%0D%0A%0D%0AI went to countless gun shows with my father growing up. I NEVER saw anyone handling loaded firearms during a show.|91 109|2|Can you give a citation%2C please%3F%3F%3F|Ace2u||11:21:06|07/23/2002|So I can look the case up on Lexus or Westlaw%3F|56 57|1|facts|klyon||14:06:32|07/15/2002|A child is killed or injured everyday with a hand gun. %0D%0A %0D%0AWhat is so wrong with education and registration.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhen people learn how to store and handle guns the number of accidents goes down.%0D%0A%0D%0AWise up people%2C demand safty.%0D%0A%0D%0AKL|0 63|2|In the minds of the most ardent Pro-Gun people|AdrianInOcala||14:32:36|07/15/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jul-15-02 AT 02:37 PM (ET)[/font][p]The %22Safety%22 that you and I think of %28Training%2C Registration%2C Trigger Locks%2C Keeping the gun UNloaded and locked away%29 are draconian and an invasion of their perceived right to keep a gun loaded%2C on the nightstand%2C with cop killer bullets.Above the government can%27t know about it %28I.E no licensing or registration%29%2C or else Janet Reno%2C Hillary Clinton The UN and Sara Brady will be at their door to take it away.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DAdrian%0D%0AVisit The Washingtoon Times at %5Bhttp%3A%2F%2Fhome.cfl.rr.com%2Fwashingtoontimes%5D updated every evening%5B%2Ffont%5D|57 67|3|You%27re right|khbaker||14:55:04|07/15/2002|But the %22most ardent Pro-Gun people%22 that you describe represent a tiny minority of gun owners.%0D%0A%0D%0AThere%27s a bunch of us%2C though%2C who think that a great deal of the legislation being proposed is unconstitutional%2C and that by violating the Constitution%2C we run great risk. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Ddarkgreen size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22If liberty means anything at all%2C it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.%22 %0D%0AGeorge Orwell %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it%27s not an individual right or that it%27s too much of a public safety hazard%2C don%27t see the danger in the big picture. They%27re courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don%27t like.%22 Alan Dershowitz%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Perhaps the most accurate conclusion one can reach with any confidence is that the core meaning of the Second Amendment is a populist %2F republican %2F federalism one%3A Its central object is to arm %27We the People%27 so that ordinary citizens can paricipate in the collective defense of their community and their state. But it does so not through directly protecting a right on the part of states or other collectivities%2C assertable by them against the federal government%2C to arm the populace as they see fit. Rather the amendment achieves its central purpose by assuring that the federal government may not disarm individual citizens without some unusually strong justification consistent with the authority of the states to organize their own militias. That assurance in turn is provided through recognizing a right %28admittedly of uncertain scope%29 on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in the defense of themselves and their homes -- not a right to hunt for game%2C quite clearly%2C and certainly not a right to employ firearms to commit aggressive acts against other persons -- a right that directly limits action by Congress or by the Executive Branch and may well%2C in addition%2C be among the privileges or immunities of United States citizens protected by %15 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment against state or local government action.%22 Laurence Tribe%2C American Constitutional Law 902 n. 221 %282000%29%5B%2Ffont%5D|63 70|4|The second amendment could be debated for the next 1000 years%2C|AdrianInOcala||15:09:29|07/15/2002|and no two people are going to come up with the same interpretation that will make everyone happy. It%27s really going to be a mess until someone has the guts to take it by the horns and make a DEFINITIVE decision one way or another.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DAdrian%0D%0AVisit The Washingtoon Times at %5Bhttp%3A%2F%2Fhome.cfl.rr.com%2Fwashingtoontimes%5D updated every evening%5B%2Ffont%5D|67 72|5|Absolutely.|khbaker||15:15:59|07/15/2002|That is why I and many like me are working for - finally getting the Supreme Court to rule on it. They just passed on two cases. Eventually%2C they%27re going to have to make a decision. Should be interesting.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Ddarkgreen size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22If liberty means anything at all%2C it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.%22 %0D%0AGeorge Orwell %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it%27s not an individual right or that it%27s too much of a public safety hazard%2C don%27t see the danger in the big picture. They%27re courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don%27t like.%22 Alan Dershowitz%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Perhaps the most accurate conclusion one can reach with any confidence is that the core meaning of the Second Amendment is a populist %2F republican %2F federalism one%3A Its central object is to arm %27We the People%27 so that ordinary citizens can paricipate in the collective defense of their community and their state. But it does so not through directly protecting a right on the part of states or other collectivities%2C assertable by them against the federal government%2C to arm the populace as they see fit. Rather the amendment achieves its central purpose by assuring that the federal government may not disarm individual citizens without some unusually strong justification consistent with the authority of the states to organize their own militias. That assurance in turn is provided through recognizing a right %28admittedly of uncertain scope%29 on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in the defense of themselves and their homes -- not a right to hunt for game%2C quite clearly%2C and certainly not a right to employ firearms to commit aggressive acts against other persons -- a right that directly limits action by Congress or by the Executive Branch and may well%2C in addition%2C be among the privileges or immunities of United States citizens protected by %15 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment against state or local government action.%22 Laurence Tribe%2C American Constitutional Law 902 n. 221 %282000%29%5B%2Ffont%5D|70 80|5|I would welcome having SCOTUS get off its duff|nick_danger||16:13:29|07/15/2002|That%27s Supreme Court of the United States.%0D%0A%0D%0AI want to see a definitive ruling on the meaning and scope of the 2A. That way we%27d all be reading off the same page.%0D%0A%0D%0AThey%27ve been dodging the issue since 1939. The last ruling%2C US v. Miller%2C left more issues open than it settled. The only clear signal from that one %28at least the only signal on which most agree%29 is that the tax provisions of the National Firearms Act of 1934 are constitutional. The rest of it is like a big Rorshach blot.|70 112|3|And how would YOU feel...|Ace2u||11:47:11|07/23/2002|If%2C in exercising a right protected under the constitution%2C that you had to register every instance you exercised that right.%0D%0A%0D%0ASay%2C recording WHO you voted for%3F|63 64|2|Newspeak Doubleplus Ungood|Liberal Classic||14:36:49|07/15/2002|Re%3A child killed every day by firearms%0D%0A%0D%0ACenters For Disease Control -- National Center for Injury Prevention and Control Injury Reports --%0D%0A%0D%0AUnintentional Fall Nonfatal Injuries and Rates per 100%2C000 - 2000%2C United States%2C All Races%2C Both Sexes%2C Ages 0 to 18%3A%0D%0A%0D%0ANumber of injuries%3A 2%2C708%2C358%0D%0A%0D%0AUnintentional All Transport Nonfatal Injuries and Rates per 100%2C000 - 2000%2C United States%2C All Races%2C Both Sexes%2C Ages 0 to 18%3A%0D%0A%0D%0ANumber of injuries%3A 1%2C401%2C780%0D%0A%0D%0AUnintentional Dog Bite Nonfatal Injuries and Rates per 100%2C000 - 2000%2C United States%2C All Races%2C Both Sexes%2C Ages 0 to 18%3A%0D%0A%0D%0ANumber of injuries%3A 176%2C525%0D%0A%0D%0AUnintentional Poisoning Nonfatal Injuries and Rates per 100%2C000 - 2000%2C United States%2C All Races%2C Both Sexes%2C Ages 0 to 18%3A%0D%0A%0D%0ANumber of injuries%3A 136%2C221%0D%0A%0D%0AUnintentional Machinery Nonfatal Injuries and Rates per 100%2C000 - 2000%2C United States%2C All Races%2C Both Sexes%2C Ages 0 to 18%3A%0D%0A%0D%0ANumber of injuries%3A 23%2C068%0D%0A%0D%0AUnintentional Firearm Gunshot Nonfatal Injuries and Rates per 100%2C000 - 2000%2C United States%2C All Races%2C Both Sexes%2C Ages 0 to 18%3A%0D%0A%0D%0ANumber of injuries%3A 5%2C232%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AI think that if you really want to save the children%2C then we need to license and register stairs and balconies. |57 73|3|Humorous in a Neanderthal sort of way%2C LC....|dw||15:22:45|07/15/2002|Wherever you found those numbers %28and it%27s customary in DU forums that you provide a source%2C on the assumption that we are intelligent and tend to do our own verification of the facts%29%2C they don%27t make sense.%0D%0A%0D%0AFor instance%2C in your first %22statistic%22 apparently the claim is that in the year 2000%2C the rate of non-fatal injuries from accidental falls was 2%2C708%2C358 for every 100%2C000 children in the population. %5Bfont color%3D%22red%22%5D%5Bb%5DThat would be 27 reported injuries per child per year from accidental falls alone.%5B%2Ffont%5D%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd why is it that when fools put these phony proofs together%2C they always call the source %27Centers for Disease Control%27. It%27s %5Blink%3Awww.cdc.gov%2F%7CCenters for Desease Control and Prevention%5D. %28Notice that I provide a link.%29 And there is no such entity as the %27National Center for Injury Prevention and Control Injury Reports%27. This is all bogus.|64 74|4|Something Else Very Telling|CO Liberal||15:25:48|07/15/2002|I did a Google search on %22National Center for Injury Prevention and Control Injury Reports%22 and got ZERO hits%21%21%21%21%0D%0A%0D%0ASo I suspect that whole list of %22facts%22 may be bogus.......%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %0D%0A%0D%0ACO Liberal%0D%0A%5BI%5D%28Over 5%2C100 Messages Posted%29%5B%2FI%5D%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plauder-smilies.de%2Fmulti.gif%0D%0A%0D%0A%22He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don%27t let that fool you. He really is an idiot.%22 - Groucho Marx%2C prophetically describing George W. Bush%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmacleod.com%2Fsiteimagesfolder%2Fgroucho.gif %0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fus.news2.yimg.com%2Fus.yimg.com%2Fp%2Fnm%2F20020705%2Fmdf64836.jpg%0D%0AWelkome to Bush%27s Amerika.%5B%2Ffont%5D|73 79|5|Please read my other reply to DW|Liberal Classic||16:09:54|07/15/2002|This proves to me that Democrats aren%27t all that much different than Republicans. Point something out to them that they don%27t like that they say you are a liar or are some sort of evolutionary throwback to an earlier age. Yay.%0D%0A%0D%0AUnintentional Firearm Gunshot Nonfatal Injuries and Rates per 100%2C000%0D%0A2000%2C United States%2C All Races%2C Both Sexes%2C Ages 0 to 18%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ANumber of injuries%3A%095%2C232%0D%0A%0D%0APopulation%3A%09%0974%2C338%2C745%0D%0A Crude Rate%3A%09%097.04%0D%0A%0D%0AThat%27s 7 in 100%2C000 of population in year 2000.%0D%0A%0D%0AThat is not one child per day.%0D%0A%0D%0ANow%2C nothing suggests that I am unsympathetic with anyone with a child injured by firearms. My heart goes out to this boy%2C and I am glad that he will survive.|74 114|6|do the math|klyon||07:09:36|07/25/2002|I stand by my words 5232 divided by 365 is greater than 1.%0D%0Athats 14 a day%28it may have been one killed a day%29 I can not give a source or year sorry%29 preventable injuries.%0D%0AI will work on all other types of deaths soon.%0D%0ATo say one is not important because there are others is bogus logic.%0D%0AKL%0D%0A|79 115|7|Re%3A I will work on all other types of deaths soon|Liberal Classic||10:19:12|07/25/2002|Also from WISQARS%2C the number of firearm-related homicide deaths for those 18 and under was 1%2C463 in 1999. The number of firearm-related suicides for those 18 and under was 809 in the same year. Though these numbers are small%2C do not in any way suggest that I don%27t have empathy with the father of the chold who died in the tragic accident in the article. I am not going to go into details%2C except to say in my family there have been incidents of firearm-related suicide. Yes%2C a life in my immediate family was taken ostensibly by a gun%2C but in reality it was her madness that took her -- not firearms.%0D%0A%0D%0AHowever%2C if you are interested in preventing injury and death from a public policy point of view%2C then you are still looking at the wrong culprit. When you say you will %22work on all other types of deaths soon%22 you are purposefully ignoring the leading cause of injury and death in children under 18 in favor of your pet issue. Transportation-related accidents are the actual leading cause of injury and death among children under 18. This is not to say an automobile accident is more important than an accidental shooting%2C rather if you concentrate on the most common type of accident%2C you do the most good with the limited amount of tax dollars that are available.%0D%0A%0D%0AOh well%2C don%27t mind me. I%27m nothing but some whacked-out knuckle-dragging gun loon. Back to the dungeon with me. Fnord.|114 76|4|Source |Liberal Classic||15:39:10|07/15/2002|This is the link to the page. I cannot link directly since it is a web script not a static page. %0D%0A%0D%0ACenters for Disease Control and Prevention National Center for Injury Prevention and Control Web-based Injury Statistics Query and Reporting System %28WISQARS%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Burl%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdc.gov%2Fncipc%2Fwisqars%2F%5B%2Furl%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AFrom this page there are fatal injury reports and non-fatal injury reports. The article that started this thread was about a minor child who was accidentially injured by a firearm discharge%2C so I followed the link to %22Nonfatal Injury Reports%22 and chose unintential injury of an age group of %3C1 to 18 years. Select the manner of injury by mashing the radio buttons.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AOverall Fall Nonfatal Injuries and Rates per 100%2C000 %0D%0A2000%2C United States%2C All Races%2C Both Sexes%2C Ages 0 to 18 %0D%0A%0D%0ANumber of injuries%3A %092%2C716%2C148%0D%0APopulation%3A %09%0974%2C338%2C745%0D%0ACrude Rate%3A%09%093%2C643.27%0D%0A%0D%0A%22The crude rate identifies the number of injuries one would find among 100%2C000 people of that population.%22%0D%0A%0D%0ASo%2C out of a population of 100%2C000 there would be 3%2C643 non-fatal injuries to falls%2C in this example. This is a rate of approximately 3.5 in 100 or 3.5 percent. This does not mean 27 injuries per child%2C and you suggest.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt is not all bogus. You are the second person to post that I am an outright liar. I don%27t particularly appreciate being called a liar%2C but I%27ve become rather accustomed to it from my time on FreeRepublic so I don%27t supposed things are any different here.%0D%0A|73 117|3|it%27s an old thread |bushwah||00:38:48|08/04/2002|... and I did say elsewhere today that I don%27t discuss gun control ... but this does need comment.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe CDC figures reproduced are raw data%2C and yet they are represented %28%5Bi%5DI think that if you really want to save the children%2C then we need to license and register stairs and balconies%5B%2Fi%5D%29 as if they provide some sort of %22dangerousness%22 index.%0D%0A%0D%0AThere are many times more non-fatal injuries %28and undoubtedly fatal injuries%29 of children under 18 from accidental falls and motor vehicle accidents than from accidental gunshots.%0D%0A%0D%0ACould it be that there are many%2C many more contacts between children and the objects involved in those injuries%2Fdeaths %28stairs%2C balconies%2C motor vehicles%29 than there are between children and firearms%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AIn order to construct a genuine dangerousness index %28and I am making no comment here on the usefulness of such an index%29%2C the information really needed is the %5Bu%5Dproportion of such contacts%5B%2Fu%5D in which injury%2Fdeath occurs. Not how many children are injured%2Fkilled by them -- but how many incidents of contact between children and them there are and %5Bu%5Dhow many of those contacts%5B%2Fu%5D result in injury%2Fdeath. %28This is only one example of the factors that would actually have to be considered in constructing a %22dangerousness%22 index%2C by the way%2C but I%27d say it%27s about the most important one.%29%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ll say pretty confidently that the %5Bu%5Drate%5B%2Fu%5D at which injury%2Fdeath occurs when there is contact between a child and one of the objects in question %28number of injuries%2Fdeaths divided by %5Bu%5Dnumber of contacts%5B%2Fu%5D%29 is very different from the %22rate%22 that might be obtained simply by dividing number of injuries%2Fdeaths by number of %5Bu%5Dchildren%5B%2Fu%5D%2C which is what the presentation of these figures seems to invite us to do.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd I%27ll also say%2C just off the sheer top of my head%2C that the ratio of rate of injury%2Fdeath by firearm to rate of injury%2Fdeath by%2C say%2C motor vehicle crash would be considerably higher than the ratio that might be obtained simply by comparing the raw CDC figures provided.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ll try to clarify and simplify%2C using purely hypothetical numbers for %22contacts%22%2C and actual numbers for children and population. If this were done using real numbers%2C the results would%2C of course%2C still be just numbers%2C and would not tell us what could or should be done if we wanted to reduce the numbers. But they might give us a little more ... accurate ... picture of reality.%0D%0A%0D%0ASample calculations%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A- if a child has%2C as an average for all children%2C 2 contacts per day with a motor vehicle %28that would be two rides in a car where there are no other cars on the road%2C no walking on streets where cars are driving%3B obviously a serious underestimate%29%2C then 1%2C401%2C780 injuries among 74%2C338%2C745 children -- %5Bu%5D148%2C677%2C490 contacts%5B%2Fu%5D -- would give us a rate of just over 0.009 non-fatal injuries per contact%3B%0D%0A%0D%0A- if a child has%2C as an average for all children%2C 1 contact per week with a firearm %28a purely hypothetical number%29%2C then 5%2C232 injuries among 74%2C338%2C745 -- %5Bu%5D10%2C619%2C820 contacts%5B%2Fu%5D -- would give us a rate of very close to 0.0005 non-fatal injuries per contact.%0D%0A%0D%0AIn other words%2C the %22dangerousness%22 index for firearms would show motor vehicles to be 20 times as dangerous as firearms%2C using my nonsense figures%2C when dangerousness was expressed as the %5Bu%5Drate%5B%2Fu%5D at which children are accidentally injured when they have contact with the object in question. Quite different from the result one might get simply by comparing %5Bu%5Dnumbers%5B%2Fu%5D of injuries %28e.g. %22there are 268 times as many accidental injuries to children involving motor vehicles than there are accidental injuries to children involving firearms%22%29.%0D%0A%0D%0AOne might hazard a guess at the number of contacts a child might have in a year with motor vehicles %28obviously%2C much higher than 2 per day%2C but we%27d have to agree on what a %22contact%22 is with a motor vehicle%2C just as we%27d have to agree on what a %22contact%22 with a firearm might be%29%2C or with stairs or balconies %28or high chairs or playground equipment or bunk beds or skateboards or bicycles or roofs -- quite a large number of distinct and widely different hazardous objects subsumed under that %22falls%22 category%2C so perhaps not the best basis for comparison to start with%2C hmm%3F%29. But I%27m afraid I haven%27t a clue how many contacts a child in the US would have in a year with a firearm%2C on average.%0D%0A%0D%0AMaybe someone else would care to take a shot. Oh dear%2C that was completely inadvertent. %3B%29 But seriously%2C the figures presented convey absolutely no %5Bu%5Duseable information%5B%2Fu%5D for the purpose of determining the %5Bu%5Drelative dangerousness%5B%2Fu%5D of firearms to children%2C and should not be cited as if they do.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DTheir Ambush here relentless Ruffians lay%2C And here the fell Attorney prowls for Prey%3B%0D%0AHere falling Houses thunder on your Head%2C And here a female Atheist talks you dead. %0D%0A- Dr. Johnson%2C %22London%22%2C 1738%5B%2Ffont%5D|64 118|4|aargh|bushwah||05:16:40|08/04/2002|It was late%2C my math was stupid%3B too late to edit%2C apparently.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AI said%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A.%0D%0A%0D%0ASample calculations%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A- if a child has%2C as an average for all children%2C 2 contacts %0D%0Aper day with a motor vehicle %28that would be two rides in a car %0D%0Awhere there are no other cars on the road%2C no walking on streets %0D%0Awhere cars are driving%3B obviously a serious underestimate%29%2C %0D%0Athen 1%2C401%2C780 injuries among 74%2C338%2C745 children -- %5Bu%5D148%2C677%2C490%5B%2Fu%5D %0D%0Acontacts -- would give us a rate of just over 0.009 non-fatal %0D%0Ainjuries per contact%3B%0D%0A%0D%0A- if a child has%2C as an average for all children%2C 1 contact %0D%0Aper week with a firearm %28a purely hypothetical number%29%2C then %0D%0A5%2C232 injuries among 74%2C338%2C745 -- %5Bu%5D10%2C619%2C820%5B%2Fu%5D contacts -- %0D%0Awould give us a rate of very close to 0.0005 non-fatal injuries%0D%0A per contact.%0D%0A%0D%0A.%0D%0A%0D%0AOf course%2C my math was totally screwed because%2C in the first case%2C I calculated it as if a child had 2 contacts with a motor vehicle %5Bu%5Dper year%5B%2Fu%5D rather than per day%2C and in the second case%2C as if a child had one contact with a firearm %5Bu%5Devery 7 years%5B%2Fu%5D rather than every 7 days. Jeez%2C the embarrassment. %28On a grade 10 science test%2C I once produced a 1000-horsepower car by misplacing the decimal and having no idea what horsepower cars were supposed to have.%29 Anyhow%2C it comes down to my figures representing children as having%2C on average%2C 14 times more contacts in a year with motor vehicles than with firearms%2C which I think would grossly underestimate the ratio of motor vehicle to firearm contacts.%0D%0A%0D%0AA population of 74%2C338%2C745 children having 2 contacts with a motor vehicle per day would be 2 x 365 x population %3D %5Bu%5D54%2C267%2C450%2C000%5B%2Fu%5D or so contacts %5Bu%5Dper year%5B%2Fu%5D. The non-fatal injury rate would then be 0.000025 non-fatal injuries per contact or thereabouts.%0D%0A%0D%0AA population of 74%2C338%2C745 children having 1 contact with a firearm per week would be %5Bu%5D3%2C865%2C635%2C000%5B%2Fu%5D or so contacts %5Bu%5Dper year%5B%2Fu%5D. The non-fatal injury rate would then be 0.0000013 non-fatal injuries per contact or thereabouts.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut hey%2C the result is the same. The ratio of motor vehicle %22dangerousness%22 to firearm %22dangerousness%22 is about 19 or 20 to 1 when these arbitrary hypothetical figures are used. I just didn%27t want somebody else heckling my dumb math before I got a chance to. %3B%29%0D%0A%0D%0AAnother way of looking at it is to take firearms injuries -- 5232 -- and multiply them by 14 to obtain the number of injuries that would be expected if children had the same %28hypothetical%2C arbitrary%29 number of contacts with firearms as with motor vehicles. We would then have total injuries of 73%2C248 versus the 1%2C401%2C780 motor vehicle injuries -- making motor vehicle contacts between 19 and 20 times as %22dangerous%22 as firearm contacts.%0D%0A%0D%0AAgain -- purely hypothetical and not based on any reality%2C in terms of the actual numbers of contacts children have with the two things%2C and not adopting any definition of %22contact%22.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DTheir Ambush here relentless Ruffians lay%2C And here the fell Attorney prowls for Prey%3B%0D%0AHere falling Houses thunder on your Head%2C And here a female Atheist talks you dead. %0D%0A- Dr. Johnson%2C %22London%22%2C 1738%5B%2Ffont%5D|117 104|2|Please provide a cite for this%3A|PorcupinePhil||04:29:00|07/19/2002|%22A child is killed or injured everyday with a hand gun. %22%0D%0A%0D%0Athat isn%27t linked to VPC or HCI. Thanks.|57 113|2|Would you prefer%3F%3F%3F|Ace2u||11:50:56|07/23/2002|That your vote be registed so that the government would know WHO you voted for%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AThen why do you advocate gun registration%3F How would regrestration promote safety%3F%0D%0A|57 75|1|Are there so many bullets flying%3F%3F%3F%3F|patdem||15:32:02|07/15/2002|At gun shows that no one knows %5Bi%5Dwhich%5B%2Fi%5D bullet hit the boy%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ADon%27t all guns have a kickback%3F How could a gun just go off%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AThe person who shot the gun knows%2C and if he%2Fshe is trying to hide it then they should be charged with attempted murder. I just hope the charge would not have to be upgraded%21%0D%0A%0D%0A|0 77|1|Perhaps now it%27s time to go after gun owners|newdem||15:56:45|07/15/2002|With ammo like this maybe we can take back the house%2C senate and throne...our own private trifecta. Or not...|0 78|2|I hope you meant that as sarcasm|nick_danger||16:08:42|07/15/2002|If so you did well. Your use of the term %22ammo%22 certainly amplified the ghoulish effect.|77 81|3|It was not meant as sarcasm|newdem||16:22:25|07/15/2002|However%2C every aspect of my life right now is a sarcastic piece of work in progress. It was not planned by me to be this way but fighting it right now only recurses back to the starting point of trouble. %0D%0A%0D%0ALimits are for those in a finite universe.%0D%0A|78 84|4|Right out of the Violence Policy Center%27s playbook|nick_danger||16:45:48|07/15/2002|Josh Sugarmann has always favored leveraging tragic incidents to help push for gun bans. Perhaps you could get a job there.|81 82|1|The boy has died.|khbaker||16:32:38|07/15/2002|www.accessatlanta.com%2Fajc%2Fmetro%2F0702%2F15gunshow.html%0D%0A%0D%0AIf you%27re a believer of any stripe%2C please give best wishes for his family. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe death of any child sucks.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Ddarkgreen size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22If liberty means anything at all%2C it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.%22 %0D%0AGeorge Orwell %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it%27s not an individual right or that it%27s too much of a public safety hazard%2C don%27t see the danger in the big picture. They%27re courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don%27t like.%22 Alan Dershowitz%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Perhaps the most accurate conclusion one can reach with any confidence is that the core meaning of the Second Amendment is a populist %2F republican %2F federalism one%3A Its central object is to arm %27We the People%27 so that ordinary citizens can paricipate in the collective defense of their community and their state. But it does so not through directly protecting a right on the part of states or other collectivities%2C assertable by them against the federal government%2C to arm the populace as they see fit. Rather the amendment achieves its central purpose by assuring that the federal government may not disarm individual citizens without some unusually strong justification consistent with the authority of the states to organize their own militias. That assurance in turn is provided through recognizing a right %28admittedly of uncertain scope%29 on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in the defense of themselves and their homes -- not a right to hunt for game%2C quite clearly%2C and certainly not a right to employ firearms to commit aggressive acts against other persons -- a right that directly limits action by Congress or by the Executive Branch and may well%2C in addition%2C be among the privileges or immunities of United States citizens protected by %15 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment against state or local government action.%22 Laurence Tribe%2C American Constitutional Law 902 n. 221 %282000%29%5B%2Ffont%5D|0 87|2|Death of any child sucks|ritc2750||07:29:19|07/16/2002|Unless you%27re a gun manufacturer... %0D%0A%0D%0A...Then it%27s just the cost of doing business.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22We%27re waste deep in the Big Muddy and the big fool says%2C Push On%22 -- Pete Seeger%0D%0A%0D%0Awww.geocities.com%2Fspringfieldtownshipdemocrats%5B%2Ffont%5D|82 88|3|Substitute %27abortion%27|deseo||08:54:13|07/16/2002|Substitute %27abortion%27 for guns in your analogy%0D%0Aand maybe you can see why I object to it.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DEverybody ought to love his job%0D%0AAnd live his life and keep his pride%0D%0AImperturbably happy with the one you love%0D%0AWith an exciting future on the fat of the land...%5B%2Ffont%5D|87 89|3|RITC%21 WB%21|khbaker||10:12:19|07/16/2002|So%2C if gun manufacturers are responsible for the accidental deaths of children%2C then the moron who pulled the trigger in this case is not culpable%3F It%27s the gun manufacturer%27s fault%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd when a doctor misprescribes a drug%2C a child dies from an adverse reaction%2C or a child gets access to prescription medicine and OD%27s%2C it%27s the drug companies fault%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd when a child dies in a traffic accident%2C it%27s the car manufacturer%27s fault%2C not the offending driver%3F %0D%0A%0D%0ASorry%2C slick%2C but %22for the CHILDREN%22 is the %5Bi%5Dlowest%5B%2Fi%5D emotion-grabbing excuse. We%27re %5Bb%5DSO%5B%2Fb%5D concerned about the CHILDREN when it comes to guns%2C but so DISINTERESTED when it comes to child abuse and neglect by parents and guardians. That kills and injures FAR more children each year than guns EVER have. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe death of a child is a tragedy. Blaming the gun manufacturers for it is a perfect example of %22wallowing in the blood.%22 I thought you were better than that.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Ddarkgreen size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22If liberty means anything at all%2C it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.%22 %0D%0AGeorge Orwell %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it%27s not an individual right or that it%27s too much of a public safety hazard%2C don%27t see the danger in the big picture. They%27re courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don%27t like.%22 Alan Dershowitz%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Perhaps the most accurate conclusion one can reach with any confidence is that the core meaning of the Second Amendment is a populist %2F republican %2F federalism one%3A Its central object is to arm %27We the People%27 so that ordinary citizens can paricipate in the collective defense of their community and their state. But it does so not through directly protecting a right on the part of states or other collectivities%2C assertable by them against the federal government%2C to arm the populace as they see fit. Rather the amendment achieves its central purpose by assuring that the federal government may not disarm individual citizens without some unusually strong justification consistent with the authority of the states to organize their own militias. That assurance in turn is provided through recognizing a right %28admittedly of uncertain scope%29 on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in the defense of themselves and their homes -- not a right to hunt for game%2C quite clearly%2C and certainly not a right to employ firearms to commit aggressive acts against other persons -- a right that directly limits action by Congress or by the Executive Branch and may well%2C in addition%2C be among the privileges or immunities of United States citizens protected by %15 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment against state or local government action.%22 Laurence Tribe%2C American Constitutional Law 902 n. 221 %282000%29%5B%2Ffont%5D|87 92|4|Why I don%27t post here much anymore|ritc2750||12:34:26|07/16/2002|Mostly it%27s the incredibly asinine and misinformed nonsense of the gunloon right wing. Here the most recent example%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5D%22We%27re SO concerned about the CHILDREN when it comes to guns%2C but so DISINTERESTED when it comes to child abuse and neglect by parents and guardians. %5Bb%5DThat kills and injures FAR more children each year than guns EVER have.%5B%2Fi%5D%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AThere were 1%2C077 reported fatalities from child abuse in 1996 %28only year for which I could find hard data%29.%0D%0A%0D%0AThere were 1%2C726 firearms fatalities for children under the age of sixteen during the same year. And that doesn%27t include the fact that certainly some of those 1%2C077 child abuse fatalities involved a firearm.%0D%0A%0D%0AAs usual%2C your argument is purile and misinformed.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22We%27re waste deep in the Big Muddy and the big fool says%2C Push On%22 -- Pete Seeger%0D%0A%0D%0Awww.geocities.com%2Fspringfieldtownshipdemocrats%5B%2Ffont%5D|89 93|5|Ah%2C I love insults|khbaker||13:48:31|07/16/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jul-16-02 AT 02:38 PM (ET)[/font][p]Yes%2C we %22gunloons%22 have a hard time with statistics%2C it seems.%0D%0A%0D%0AI will admit%2C I usually wait and try to get all my ducks in a row before responding%2C but I do so love it when the %22guns are evil%22 crowd start blaming the manufacuturers for the misdeeds of people%2C rather than blaming the people.%0D%0A%0D%0ALet%27s see%2C according to %5Blink%3Awww.cdc.gov%2Fncipc%2Fwisqars%2Fdefault.htm%7CWISQUARS reports%5D in 1998%2C 2470 children 16 and under died violently. Homicides represented 1648 of those%2C and 677 of those deaths were by firearm%2C leaving 971 non-firearm homicides. There were 178 accidental deaths by firearm%2C and 454 suicides. %28And 367 non-firearm suicides.%29 %0D%0A%0D%0AIn 2000%2C according to the same source%2C there were 268%2C686 physical assaults on children 16 and younger%2C but in neither case is the data broken out as to %5Bi%5Dwho committed%5B%2Fi%5D the offense.%0D%0A%0D%0AAccording to the U.S. Dept. of Heath and Human Services %5Blink%3Awww.calib.com%2Fnccanch%2Fpubs%2Fstatinfo%2Fnis3.cfm%23national%7CExecutive Summary of the Third National Incidence Study of Child Abuse and Neglect%5D%3A %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DAn estimated 1%2C553%2C800 children in the United States were abused or neglected under the Harm Standard in 1993. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe estimated number of sexually abused children under the Harm Standard rose from 119%2C200 in 1986 to 217%2C700 in 1993 %28an 83%25 increase%29%3B %0D%0A%0D%0AThe number of physically neglected children under the Harm Standard increased from an estimated 167%2C800 at the time of the NIS-2 to an estimated 338%2C900 in the NIS-3 %28a 102%25 rise in incidence%29%3B %0D%0A%0D%0AThe estimated number of %5Bb%5Dphysically abused%5B%2Fb%5D children under the Harm Standard was %5Bb%5D269%2C700%5B%2Fb%5D at the time of the NIS-2%2C but it had increased to %5Bb%5D381%2C700%5B%2Fb%5D during the NIS-3 %28a 42%25 increase%29. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe estimated number of %5Bb%5Dseriously injured%5B%2Fb%5D children essentially quadrupled from 141%2C700 to 565%2C000 in the intervening 7 years between the NIS-2 and the NIS-3 %28a 299%25 increase%29. %5B%2Fi%5D %28My emphasis%29%0D%0A%0D%0AAlso according to %5Blink%3Awww.calib.com%2Fnccanch%2Fpubs%2Ffactsheets%2Fcanstats.cfm%7CNational Child Abuse and Neglect Data System Summary of Key Findings from Calendar Year 2000%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DApproximately 1%2C200 children died of abuse or neglect in the year 2000-a rate of 1.71 children per 100%2C000 children in the population. %0D%0A%0D%0AYoungest children were the most vulnerable. Children younger than one year old accounted for 44 percent of child fatalities and 85 percent of child fatalities were younger than 6 years of age.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AYes%2C we certainly are concerned about the CHILDREN%2C aren%27t we%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ASo%2C where did your data come from%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m sorry%2C I %5Bi%5Dwas%5B%2Fi%5D wrong%2C and I apologize. My intent was to say that more children were killed and injured by abusive parents and guardians that were %5Bi%5Daccidentally%5B%2Fi%5D killed and injured with firearms%2C but that%27s not what I wrote%2C and you were right to catch me out. I apologize for being so %22incredibly asinine and misinformed.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0A%28And it certainly %5Bi%5Dmust%5B%2Fi%5D be the fault of the gun manufacturers when those abusive parents kill their children with a gun%2C too%21 Foolish me for not realizing it%21%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Ddarkgreen size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22If liberty means anything at all%2C it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.%22 %0D%0AGeorge Orwell %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it%27s not an individual right or that it%27s too much of a public safety hazard%2C don%27t see the danger in the big picture. They%27re courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don%27t like.%22 Alan Dershowitz%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Perhaps the most accurate conclusion one can reach with any confidence is that the core meaning of the Second Amendment is a populist %2F republican %2F federalism one%3A Its central object is to arm %27We the People%27 so that ordinary citizens can paricipate in the collective defense of their community and their state. But it does so not through directly protecting a right on the part of states or other collectivities%2C assertable by them against the federal government%2C to arm the populace as they see fit. Rather the amendment achieves its central purpose by assuring that the federal government may not disarm individual citizens without some unusually strong justification consistent with the authority of the states to organize their own militias. That assurance in turn is provided through recognizing a right %28admittedly of uncertain scope%29 on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in the defense of themselves and their homes -- not a right to hunt for game%2C quite clearly%2C and certainly not a right to employ firearms to commit aggressive acts against other persons -- a right that directly limits action by Congress or by the Executive Branch and may well%2C in addition%2C be among the privileges or immunities of United States citizens protected by %15 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment against state or local government action.%22 Laurence Tribe%2C American Constitutional Law 902 n. 221 %282000%29%5B%2Ffont%5D|92 95|6|I wouldn%27t expect a reply|Justsayno||18:25:54|07/16/2002|the facts done gone and confused %27em.|93 96|7|I don%27t %28n%2Ft%29|khbaker||18:53:25|07/16/2002|%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Ddarkgreen size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22If liberty means anything at all%2C it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.%22 %0D%0AGeorge Orwell %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it%27s not an individual right or that it%27s too much of a public safety hazard%2C don%27t see the danger in the big picture. They%27re courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don%27t like.%22 Alan Dershowitz%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Perhaps the most accurate conclusion one can reach with any confidence is that the core meaning of the Second Amendment is a populist %2F republican %2F federalism one%3A Its central object is to arm %27We the People%27 so that ordinary citizens can paricipate in the collective defense of their community and their state. But it does so not through directly protecting a right on the part of states or other collectivities%2C assertable by them against the federal government%2C to arm the populace as they see fit. Rather the amendment achieves its central purpose by assuring that the federal government may not disarm individual citizens without some unusually strong justification consistent with the authority of the states to organize their own militias. That assurance in turn is provided through recognizing a right %28admittedly of uncertain scope%29 on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in the defense of themselves and their homes -- not a right to hunt for game%2C quite clearly%2C and certainly not a right to employ firearms to commit aggressive acts against other persons -- a right that directly limits action by Congress or by the Executive Branch and may well%2C in addition%2C be among the privileges or immunities of United States citizens protected by %15 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment against state or local government action.%22 Laurence Tribe%2C American Constitutional Law 902 n. 221 %282000%29%5B%2Ffont%5D|95 105|4|Lol%21|PorcupinePhil||04:33:23|07/19/2002|Didn%27t Janet Reno say that she ordered the gassing and burning of the Branch Davidian%27s church to save the children%3F IIRC%2C the quote was %22If it saves just one child%27s life...%22|89 116|5|I can%27t imagine starting your post with an %22lol%22|Cappurr||10:42:25|07/25/2002|considering the subject matter at had here. But No. Janet Reno never said that. She did say it was worth trying to go into the complex because of the children. Of course%2C she had no idea that the Davidians would set fire to the place and their children. %0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Btable cellspacing%3D%220%22 cellpadding%3D%220%22%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd valign%3D%22bottom%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Fcat3.gif%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btd%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Ftiere%2Fcatmilk.gif%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btd%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.gifs.net%2Fanimate%2Fcat3.gif%5Bbr %2F%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DCats rule%3B Republicans drool%5B%2Ffont%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btd valign%3D%22bottom%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fimg.livejournal.com%2Fmood%2Fneko%2Fkaokitty%2Fpissed.gif%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5B%2Ftable%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D|105 90|3|ritc2750 - Please cite any civil case in which...|nick_danger||10:35:44|07/16/2002|The manufacturer of a legal%2C non-defective product has been held liable for criminal use of that product.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ll bet you can%27t find a single instance.|87 97|1|The dealers had loaded weapons|Lefty48197||19:42:48|07/17/2002|I heard that the dealers were allowed to carry loaded weapons%2C as long as they were kept concealed. The loaded weapons were allowed to protect their merchandise.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22... all Experience hath shewn%2C that Mankind are more disposed to suffer%2C while Evils are sufferable%2C than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations pursuing invariably the same Object envinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism%2C it is their Right%2C it is their Duty to throw off such Government and provide new Guards for their future Security%22. %0D%0A- Thomas Jefferson%5B%2Ffont%5D|0 106|1|Police may never know who pulled trigger|khbaker||11:03:34|07/19/2002|%5Blink%3Awww.accessatlanta.com%2Fajc%2Fmetro%2F0702%2F19gunshow.html%7CPolice may never know who pulled trigger on weapon that killed boy at gun show%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dblue%5DGwinnett police said Thursday they may never know who pulled the trigger of a weapon that killed an Alabama boy at a crowded gun show Sunday.%0D%0A%0D%0APolice Maj. Duane Kissel said both the boy%27s father and a Florida holster vendor handled the gun just before it fired%2C striking Steven %22Bray%22 King%2C 13%2C in an eye.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut Kissel said it%27s still unclear who was in possession of the gun when it discharged.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22The two key witnesses were both extremely emotional over the issue%2C%22 Kissel told reporters Thursday.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22The vendor himself collapsed at the scene.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AKissel said they know this much%3A The boy%27s father%2C Anthony Grant of Prattville%2C Ala.%2C was shopping for a particular holster and stopped at a Florida dealer%27s table. After Grant questioned whether the holster would fit his gun%2C the dealer -- who police say is not a former law enforcement officer%2C contrary to previous witness accounts -- got out his own loaded .38-caliber handgun to demonstrate.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe vendor knew the weapon was loaded%2C but the boy%27s father apparently did not%2C Kissel said.%0D%0A%0D%0ASometime during the exchange of the weapon between the two men%2C the gun discharged%2C Kissel said.%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0ARegardless of who pulled the trigger%2C the vendor is%2C IMO%2C guilty of negligient manslaughter for not clearing his weapon before handing it to the boy%27s father. Yes%2C Dad is culpable too for not doing it himself%2C but the vendor should %5Bi%5Dnever%5B%2Fi%5D have handed a loaded weapon to %5Bi%5Danyone%5B%2Fi%5D. No excuses. A boy is dead because of this violation of the most simple of rules.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Ddarkgreen size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22If liberty means anything at all%2C it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.%22 %0D%0AGeorge Orwell %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it%27s not an individual right or that it%27s too much of a public safety hazard%2C don%27t see the danger in the big picture. They%27re courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don%27t like.%22 Alan Dershowitz%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Perhaps the most accurate conclusion one can reach with any confidence is that the core meaning of the Second Amendment is a populist %2F republican %2F federalism one%3A Its central object is to arm %27We the People%27 so that ordinary citizens can paricipate in the collective defense of their community and their state. But it does so not through directly protecting a right on the part of states or other collectivities%2C assertable by them against the federal government%2C to arm the populace as they see fit. Rather the amendment achieves its central purpose by assuring that the federal government may not disarm individual citizens without some unusually strong justification consistent with the authority of the states to organize their own militias. That assurance in turn is provided through recognizing a right %28admittedly of uncertain scope%29 on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in the defense of themselves and their homes -- not a right to hunt for game%2C quite clearly%2C and certainly not a right to employ firearms to commit aggressive acts against other persons -- a right that directly limits action by Congress or by the Executive Branch and may well%2C in addition%2C be among the privileges or immunities of United States citizens protected by %15 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment against state or local government action.%22 Laurence Tribe%2C American Constitutional Law 902 n. 221 %282000%29%5B%2Ffont%5D|0 119|1|An arrest warrant was finally issued|khbaker||18:54:41|08/22/2002|%5Bfont size%3D3%5D%5Bb%5DWarrant out for gun show vendor in accidental shooting death %5B%2Ffont%5D%5B%2Fb%5D%5Bfont color%3Dblue%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AGwinnett County authorities today issued an arrest warrant for a Florida holster vendor who reportedly was holding the gun that accidentally discharged and killed a teenager at a Norcross gun show.%0D%0A%0D%0ACleveland Lewis Chaney%2C 57%2C of Obrien%2C Fla.%2C is expected to surrender on the involuntary manslaughter charge as soon as possible%2C Gwinnett Cpl. Ray Dunlap said Thursday.%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0Awww.accessatlanta.com%2Fajc%2Fmetro%2F0802%2F22gunshow.html%0D%0A%0D%0AAbout time.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Ddarkgreen size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22If liberty means anything at all%2C it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.%22 %0D%0AGeorge Orwell %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it%27s not an individual right or that it%27s too much of a public safety hazard%2C don%27t see the danger in the big picture. They%27re courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don%27t like.%22 Alan Dershowitz%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Perhaps the most accurate conclusion one can reach with any confidence is that the core meaning of the Second Amendment is a populist %2F republican %2F federalism one%3A Its central object is to arm %27We the People%27 so that ordinary citizens can paricipate in the collective defense of their community and their state. But it does so not through directly protecting a right on the part of states or other collectivities%2C assertable by them against the federal government%2C to arm the populace as they see fit. Rather the amendment achieves its central purpose by assuring that the federal government may not disarm individual citizens without some unusually strong justification consistent with the authority of the states to organize their own militias. That assurance in turn is provided through recognizing a right %28admittedly of uncertain scope%29 on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in the defense of themselves and their homes -- not a right to hunt for game%2C quite clearly%2C and certainly not a right to employ firearms to commit aggressive acts against other persons -- a right that directly limits action by Congress or by the Executive Branch and may well%2C in addition%2C be among the privileges or immunities of United States citizens protected by %A71 of the Fourteenth Amendment against state or local government action.%22 Laurence Tribe%2C American Constitutional Law 902 n. 221 %282000%29%5B%2Ffont%5D|0 120|2|Life.|1911A1||21:17:26|08/22/2002|%5Bi%5Dwho reportedly was holding the gun that accidentally discharged and killed a teenager at a Norcross gun show.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ADon%27t know the details%2C but based on what I%27ve heard so far I think life%2C period%2C is suitable. He makes a living handling firearms%2C he should have known better.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ll wait to hear more%2C but can%27t imagine what could be said in his defense.%0D%0A|119 121|3|He%27s charged with negligent homicide|khbaker||21:33:28|08/22/2002|You don%27t get life for that.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Ddarkgreen size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22If liberty means anything at all%2C it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.%22 %0D%0AGeorge Orwell %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it%27s not an individual right or that it%27s too much of a public safety hazard%2C don%27t see the danger in the big picture. They%27re courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don%27t like.%22 Alan Dershowitz%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Perhaps the most accurate conclusion one can reach with any confidence is that the core meaning of the Second Amendment is a populist %2F republican %2F federalism one%3A Its central object is to arm %27We the People%27 so that ordinary citizens can paricipate in the collective defense of their community and their state. But it does so not through directly protecting a right on the part of states or other collectivities%2C assertable by them against the federal government%2C to arm the populace as they see fit. Rather the amendment achieves its central purpose by assuring that the federal government may not disarm individual citizens without some unusually strong justification consistent with the authority of the states to organize their own militias. That assurance in turn is provided through recognizing a right %28admittedly of uncertain scope%29 on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in the defense of themselves and their homes -- not a right to hunt for game%2C quite clearly%2C and certainly not a right to employ firearms to commit aggressive acts against other persons -- a right that directly limits action by Congress or by the Executive Branch and may well%2C in addition%2C be among the privileges or immunities of United States citizens protected by %A71 of the Fourteenth Amendment against state or local government action.%22 Laurence Tribe%2C American Constitutional Law 902 n. 221 %282000%29%5B%2Ffont%5D|120 122|4|As a Minimum .....|CO Liberal||12:14:17|08/23/2002|He should serve some jail time%2C pay a stiff fine%2C and be barred from ever having a gun in his hand again for the rest of his life.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %0D%0A%0D%0ACO Liberal%0D%0A%5BI%5D%28Over 5%2C900 Messages Posted%29%5B%2FI%5D%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plauder-smilies.de%2Fmulti.gif%0D%0A%0D%0A%22He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don%27t let that fool you. He really is an idiot.%22 - Groucho Marx%2C prophetically describing George W. Bush%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmacleod.com%2Fsiteimagesfolder%2Fgroucho.gif %0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fus.news2.yimg.com%2Fus.yimg.com%2Fp%2Fnm%2F20020705%2Fmdf64836.jpg%0D%0AWelkome to Bush%27s Amerika.%5B%2Ffont%5D|121 123|5|If this were a car accident|SUEJ||13:24:42|08/23/2002|would you say the same%3F Should he never get in a car again%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AHow about a dropped object from a carpenter on a roof%3F Should the carpenter never hold a hammer again%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat if a mover smashes a small child against a wall with a heavy box%3F Should the mover be banned from lifting%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AThis is his livelihood. Let%27s get real. Some serious training%2C maybe restrictions%2C but let%27s not get carried away with ridding%2C at least this person%2C of the vile object. We all know how much you hate guns and I think your hatred clouds your vision.%0D%0A%0D%0AI agree that this man should pay some serious fine%2C possible jail time.%0D%0A%0D%0AHowever%2C after all is said and done%2C this was an accident. There was no intent. I%27m sure all parties are remorseful.%0D%0A%0D%0AHis sentencing will probably rest on his cooperation with the police. From what the media has shown %28and that is always dubious to begin with%29 he wasn%27t to quick to raise his hand and say %22oops%22. Just that may count against him rather heavily.|122 124|6|Yeah%2C Let%27s Not Be Mean About This|Paladin||14:45:38|08/23/2002|%0D%0AI mean%2Creally%2C what%27s the big deal%3F Sure%2C this guy put a bullet through the eye of a 13-year-old child%2C and the kid kicked the bucket%2C but golly%2C does that mean this poor fella has to go without guns for the rest of his life%3F Talk about harsh. How about a six-week suspension of the guy%27s NRA membership%2C and he promises never to do it again%3F Sound about right%3F|123 126|7|Or ....|CO Liberal||15:30:10|08/23/2002|... maybe they could get Bob Barr to slap him lightly on the wrist%2C wag his finger%2C and say %22No%2C no%2C no-o-o-o-o ......%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %0D%0A%0D%0ACO Liberal%0D%0A%5BI%5D%28Over 5%2C900 Messages Posted%29%5B%2FI%5D%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plauder-smilies.de%2Fmulti.gif%0D%0A%0D%0A%22He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don%27t let that fool you. He really is an idiot.%22 - Groucho Marx%2C prophetically describing George W. Bush%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmacleod.com%2Fsiteimagesfolder%2Fgroucho.gif %0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fus.news2.yimg.com%2Fus.yimg.com%2Fp%2Fnm%2F20020705%2Fmdf64836.jpg%0D%0AWelkome to Bush%27s Amerika.%5B%2Ffont%5D|124 128|7|You%27re making a mockery of someones death|SUEJ||16:07:05|08/23/2002|He should pay%2C whatever fine%2Fjail time his jurisdiction and the judge%2Fjury%2Fprosecutor decide.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AStripping him of constitutional rights for a misdemeanor is WRONG.|124 125|6|This Man Was a Professional|CO Liberal||15:25:50|08/23/2002|And as a professional he should be held to a higher standard. Personally%2C I think your love and admiration for the object is clouding YOUR vision.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %0D%0A%0D%0ACO Liberal%0D%0A%5BI%5D%28Over 5%2C900 Messages Posted%29%5B%2FI%5D%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plauder-smilies.de%2Fmulti.gif%0D%0A%0D%0A%22He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don%27t let that fool you. He really is an idiot.%22 - Groucho Marx%2C prophetically describing George W. Bush%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmacleod.com%2Fsiteimagesfolder%2Fgroucho.gif %0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fus.news2.yimg.com%2Fus.yimg.com%2Fp%2Fnm%2F20020705%2Fmdf64836.jpg%0D%0AWelkome to Bush%27s Amerika.%5B%2Ffont%5D|123 127|7|Surely%2C you jest|SUEJ||16:05:10|08/23/2002|A professional vendor of holsters is supposed to be a professional gun handler%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AThat%27s like saying a tirewrench monkey at the Jiffy Lube had better drive like Mario Andretti.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AI agree that there should be a fine%2Fjail time. Taking away his 2nd ammendment%2C no.%0D%0A%0D%0A1%29 Negligent homicide is most likely NOT a felony. More than likely he won%27t get a year%2B in jail. Thus%2C no legal standpoint.%0D%0A%0D%0A2%29 If a person is convicted of telephone harrassment we don%27t take away their 1st ammendment rights%2C much less their livelihood. We don%27t even take away their phone.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AI thought you were leaving this forum%3F%0D%0A|125 129|8|I%27m Serious|CO Liberal||16:23:40|08/23/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Aug-23-02 AT 04:37 PM (ET)[/font][p]%5Bb%5D%5Bi%5DA professional vendor of holsters is supposed to be a professional gun handler%3F%5B%2Fb%5D%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AI don%27t believe that anyone would sell gun accessories unless they were a gun enthusiast. He knew better%2C and his disregard for the safety of others cost a 13-year-old boy his life.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5D%5Bi%5DThat%27s like saying a tirewrench monkey at the Jiffy Lube had better drive like Mario Andretti.%5B%2Fb%5D%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AYet another apples-and-oranges argument. Driving has nothing to do whth the guy with the wrench. But if he failed to tighten the lug nuts properly and an accident occurred%2C he might be help liable.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5D%5Bi%5DI agree that there should be a fine%2Fjail time. Taking away his 2nd ammendment%2C no.%5B%2Fb%5D%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AI completely disagree. This guy has shown complete disregard for the safety of others%2C so he should never be anywhere NEAR another gun. %28Maybe a sentence like THAT will convince others to be more responsible.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5D%5Bi%5D1%29 Negligent homicide is most likely NOT a felony. More than likely he won%27t get a year%2B in jail. Thus%2C no legal standpoint.%5B%2Fb%5D%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m not a lawyer. I%27d have to defer to someone who is.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5D%5Bi%5D2%29 If a person is convicted of telephone harrassment we don%27t take away their 1st ammendment rights%2C much less their livelihood. We don%27t even take away their phone.%5B%2Fb%5D%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AYou pro-gun folks sure love your apples-and-oranges comparisons%2C don%27t you%3F%3F%3F Mishandling a telephone never killed anyone - mishandling a gun does all the time.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5D%5Bi%5DI thought you were leaving this forum%3F%5B%2Fb%5D%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AI come back from time to time when I see something worth commenting on%2C and leave when it gets too repetitious and monotonous.%0D%0A%0D%0A%28Edited to fix typos.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %0D%0A%0D%0ACO Liberal%0D%0A%5BI%5D%28Over 5%2C900 Messages Posted%29%5B%2FI%5D%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plauder-smilies.de%2Fmulti.gif%0D%0A%0D%0A%22He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don%27t let that fool you. He really is an idiot.%22 - Groucho Marx%2C prophetically describing George W. Bush%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmacleod.com%2Fsiteimagesfolder%2Fgroucho.gif %0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fus.news2.yimg.com%2Fus.yimg.com%2Fp%2Fnm%2F20020705%2Fmdf64836.jpg%0D%0AWelkome to Bush%27s Amerika.%5B%2Ffont%5D|127 132|9|Apples and oranges%3F Are we talking fruit or guns%3F|SUEJ||17:03:28|08/23/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Aug-23-02 AT 05:05 PM (ET)[/font][p]I don%27t believe that anyone would sell gun accessories unless they were a gun enthusiast. He knew better%2C and his disregard for the safety of others cost a 13-year-old boy his life.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DAnother show of your ignorance. %5Bi%5DEnthusiasts%5B%2Fi%5D are the guys behind the guns on the range putting lead into little paper targets. %5Bi%5DVendors%5B%2Fi%5D are in it for the money. They are not mutually exclusive%2C but a LEATHERWORKER or holstermaker doesn%27t have to be a gunnut in order to craft holsters. In fact%2C this might account for the lack of gun knowhow. I would agree with your second statement. You shouldn%27t handle a firearm unless you know the basic 4 rules.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AThat%27s like saying a tirewrench monkey at the Jiffy Lube had better drive like Mario Andretti.%0D%0A%0D%0AYet another apples-and-oranges argument. Driving has nothing to do whth the guy with the wrench. But if he failed to tighten the lug nuts properly and an accident occurred%2C he might be help liable.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DAgain%2C see my above statement. Holster makers are not experts in gun handling. They may be experts %28or not%29 in leatherworking or Kydex forming%2C but not gun experts. My example stands as valid.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AI completely disagree. This guy has shown complete disregard for the safety of others%2C so he should never be anywhere NEAR another gun. %28Maybe a sentence like THAT will convince others to be more responsible.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DSee my other post to Paladin in the which I discussed how far overboard you go when talking about stripping constitutional rights.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m not a lawyer. I%27d have to defer to someone who is.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DNeither am I. However%2C I%27m surrounded by them. Criminal prosecutors to boot. Trust me.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AYou pro-gun folks sure love your apples-and-oranges comparisons%2C don%27t you%3F%3F%3F Mishandling a telephone never killed anyone - mishandling a gun does all the time.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DAu contraire%21 Telephone harrassment is a big part of DV %28domestic violence%29 which comes across my desk a LOT. All it takes is the battered person to pick up that phone and the cycle of violence is continued. So%2C yes. Telephones can kill%2C indirectly. But%2C that%27s not what we%27re talking about. We%27re talking about the misuse of the instruments which we use as part of our constitutional rights. In each case an instrument was used %28phone vs. gun%29. In each case%2C a crime was committed. Interestingly enough%2C the gun mishap was just that. I was not intended to go off%2C nor in the direction of the child. Telephone harrassment is deliberate and criminal in its nature.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A|129 134|10|I Disagree Again|CO Liberal||17:16:58|08/23/2002|%5Bb%5D%5Bi%5D ... a LEATHERWORKER or holstermaker doesn%27t have to be a gunnut in order to craft holsters.%5B%2Fb%5D%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AAh%2C but if he was NOT interested in guns%2C he would probably be spending his time making wallets%2C motorcycle saddle bags%2C or other items. I know it%27s guilt by association%2C but I can%27t see anyone who wasn%27t a %22gunnut%22 %28your phrase%29 exhibiting at a gun show. Just doesn%27t make sense ......%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %0D%0A%0D%0ACO Liberal%0D%0A%5BI%5D%28Over 5%2C900 Messages Posted%29%5B%2FI%5D%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plauder-smilies.de%2Fmulti.gif%0D%0A%0D%0A%22He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don%27t let that fool you. He really is an idiot.%22 - Groucho Marx%2C prophetically describing George W. Bush%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmacleod.com%2Fsiteimagesfolder%2Fgroucho.gif %0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fus.news2.yimg.com%2Fus.yimg.com%2Fp%2Fnm%2F20020705%2Fmdf64836.jpg%0D%0AWelkome to Bush%27s Amerika.%5B%2Ffont%5D|132 135|11|Ignorance%2C ignorance%2C ignorance|SUEJ||17:41:27|08/23/2002|aren%27t you glad you%27re still here to learn%3F %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ACo%2C my advice to you is to go to a gun show. You%27ll be disgusted. Okay%2C maybe you wont. I am everytime I%27m stupid enough to plunk down the 6-7 bucks to go.%0D%0A%0D%0AMost of the venders there don%27t sell guns. They sell beanie babies%2C books%2C safes%2C foods%2C jerky%2C crafts%2C gun related gizmos and spoof stuff%2C flags and americana%2C knick knacks.%0D%0A%0D%0AFrankly%2C other than the ammo sales%2C I don%27t like gunshows. And I can get the ammo cheaper online.%0D%0A%0D%0ANow%2C to your point. Leatherworkers can choose what they want to make. Making holsters is a choice%2C but if you%27re in the business%2C you will want to appeal to as many customers as possible. Pick up a leathermaking catalog. In fact%2C check out some or their site on the internet%2C like tandyleather.com. Holsters%2C gun holders%2C etc. It%27s part of leathermaking.%0D%0A%0D%0ANow%2C I%27m not saying that the shooter WASN%27T an gun expert. I%27m just saying that he doesn%27t need to be a gun expert to make holsters. He doesn%27t even need to own a gun. Leather crafts can be made with fake guns or plastic %22plugs%22%2C which is advisable since part of forming the holster means getting the gun wet.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd I do speak from meager experience%2C as I just started into the very entertaining hobby of leatherworking.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s not all about guns%2C but it is kind of unavoidable.|134 130|8|A Couple of Things|Paladin||16:27:43|08/23/2002|%0D%0A1.%29 The correct spelling is %22amendment%2C%22 not %22ammendment.%22 If you believe in the 2nd Amendment so strongly%2C get the freaking spelling right.%0D%0A%0D%0A2.%29 As a gun regulation advocate%2C it always makes me feel good to see somebody on the other side making light of gun mishandling%2C like you%27re doing here %28So he shot a kid in the head and killed him%3B fer Chrissakes%2C don%27t take away his guns%21%29. With enemies like you%2C believe me%2C my side doesn%27t need near as many friends......|127 131|9|Sorry%2C didn%27t know we had grammar Nazis here|SUEJ||16:54:14|08/23/2002|I%27m not making light of anything.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m merely stating a simple fact. I%27ll try and respond to CO and to you in this post.%0D%0A%0D%0AYMMV%2C but in my jurisdiction%2C negligent homicide is a MISDEMEANOR. You cannot be sent to prison nor will you be stripped of your right to own a firearm. You can have up to one year in jail %28which I doubt would apply in this case%29 and some hefty fines.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhich means%2C when I see you two advocating for harsher penalties that don%27t even come across the judicial bench IN REAL LIFE%2C I can%27t help but wonder what your motivation is. %0D%0A%0D%0AYou both don%27t want this man to own guns. That much is obvious. You don%27t want MANY%2C IF ALL people to own guns. That is manifest in your many statements in this forum. So%2C when you advocate going ABOVE AND BEYOND the reach of the law to confiscate this man%27s firearms and strip him of his constitutional rights I HAVE to question your motivations.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A|130 133|10|My Motivation is Simple|CO Liberal||17:06:02|08/23/2002|I want this to be a safer world. And I believe that it would be safer with fewer guns.%0D%0A%0D%0APeriod.%0D%0A%0D%0AI am not in favor of confiscating guns. But I AM in favor of full registration and harsh penalties for the misuse of guns.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %0D%0A%0D%0ACO Liberal%0D%0A%5BI%5D%28Over 5%2C900 Messages Posted%29%5B%2FI%5D%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plauder-smilies.de%2Fmulti.gif%0D%0A%0D%0A%22He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don%27t let that fool you. He really is an idiot.%22 - Groucho Marx%2C prophetically describing George W. Bush%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmacleod.com%2Fsiteimagesfolder%2Fgroucho.gif %0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fus.news2.yimg.com%2Fus.yimg.com%2Fp%2Fnm%2F20020705%2Fmdf64836.jpg%0D%0AWelkome to Bush%27s Amerika.%5B%2Ffont%5D|131 136|11|And registration |SUEJ||17:44:16|08/23/2002|is a slippery slope already proven to mean confiscation in other countries as well as this one.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut that%27s already been covered%2C no%3F|133 137|12|We%27re Getting Nowhere|CO Liberal||17:47:46|08/23/2002|I think we%27re just gonna have to agree to disagree. I don%27t want to see this dissolve into a flamefest.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %0D%0A%0D%0ACO Liberal%0D%0A%5BI%5D%28Over 5%2C900 Messages Posted%29%5B%2FI%5D%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plauder-smilies.de%2Fmulti.gif%0D%0A%0D%0A%22He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don%27t let that fool you. He really is an idiot.%22 - Groucho Marx%2C prophetically describing George W. Bush%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmacleod.com%2Fsiteimagesfolder%2Fgroucho.gif %0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fus.news2.yimg.com%2Fus.yimg.com%2Fp%2Fnm%2F20020705%2Fmdf64836.jpg%0D%0AWelkome to Bush%27s Amerika.%5B%2Ffont%5D|136 138|13|What if I don%27t want to agree to disagree|SUEJ||17:59:46|08/23/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Aug-23-02 AT 06:00 PM (ET)[/font][p]I%27m feeling might disagreeable%2C and I don%27t think I want to agree to even disagree.%0D%0A %3B%29%0D%0A%0D%0AWe don%27t have to flame. Just keep it civil. How%27s that quote go%3F Simple people talk about other people%2C great people talk about ideas.%0D%0A%0D%0ASomething like that.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ALet%27s address the registration issue. Why do you think that registration will prevent crime%3F What about people that obtain their firearms illegally to begin with%3F How will registration stop them%3F What will registration do besides allow cops to assign blame %28possibly%29 to an already cold body%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A|137 139|14|OK|CO Liberal||18:21:15|08/23/2002|%5Bb%5DWhy do you think that registration will prevent crime%3F %5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AI believe that full registration will help keep guns out of the hands of criminals and dry up their sources for obtaining guns.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DWhat about people that obtain their firearms illegally to begin with%3F %5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AI believe that can be eliminated through registration.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DHow will registration stop them%3F %5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0ABy denying criminals access to guns.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DWhat will registration do besides allow cops to assign blame %28possibly%29 to an already cold body%3F%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AWell%2C that%27s one benefit. And when a cache of stolen weapons is recovered%2C registration data will make it easier for the rightful owners to retrieve their property.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %0D%0A%0D%0ACO Liberal%0D%0A%5BI%5D%28Over 5%2C900 Messages Posted%29%5B%2FI%5D%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plauder-smilies.de%2Fmulti.gif%0D%0A%0D%0A%22He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don%27t let that fool you. He really is an idiot.%22 - Groucho Marx%2C prophetically describing George W. Bush%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmacleod.com%2Fsiteimagesfolder%2Fgroucho.gif %0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fus.news2.yimg.com%2Fus.yimg.com%2Fp%2Fnm%2F20020705%2Fmdf64836.jpg%0D%0AWelkome to Bush%27s Amerika.%5B%2Ffont%5D|138 141|15|%3A%28|SUEJ||18:55:53|08/23/2002|I%27m out the door. I%27ll get back to this one ASAP%2C ie. Mon. morning.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ACYA then|139 142|15|You believe it%2C but all evidence is against it|khbaker||20:28:04|08/23/2002|%28Assuming I%27m not on %22IGNORE%22 or %22Manual Ignore%22 %3B-%29%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DI believe that full registration will help keep guns out of the hands of criminals and dry up their sources for obtaining guns.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AThere is absolutely no evidence%2C even in countries that did not initially have large quantities of unregistered guns%2C that criminals have any difficulty acquiring firearms if they want them. The most obvious example %28and the one we point to every time%29 is England%2C where all %5Bi%5Dregistered%5B%2Fi%5D handguns were banned and turned in to %22eliminate a prime source%22 of handguns to the criminal market. Handgun involved crime has gone UP over 40%25 since the ban. The police are arming themselves in reaction to far higher firearm involved crime. It%27s just like the drug war%2C CO%2C and you know it. Supply %3D Demand. You can somewhat affect the price%2C but that%27s all. After 30%2B years of the Drug War%2C drugs are cheaper than ever. There are over 200 million firearms in the U.S. that are legally owned. They aren%27t all going to be registered. Assuming 99%25 compliance %28which you won%27t get%2C%29 there%27s enough to feed the criminal demand for over a hundred years. Then we can start doing what the English criminals are doing - smuggling them in%2C converting replicas%2C recommissioning decommissioned guns%2C and manufacturing new ones. %0D%0A%0D%0AA world where registration is effective is a nice dream%2C but it%27s just a dream.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DI believe %28people that obtain their firearms illegally%29 can be eliminated through registration.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd I keep pointing out the logistical impossibility of registration%2C but you ignore it. It won%27t happen. And even if it did%2C it doesn%27t affect criminal access. And you %5Bi%5Dwill %5Bb%5Dnot%5B%2Fb%5D%5B%2Fi%5D accept those facts.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5D%22How will registration stop them%3F%22%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DBy denying criminals access to guns.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AThis is the definition of circular reasoning. Registration will stop criminal access because registration will stop criminal access. Eh%3F We know you %5Bb%5Dbelieve%5B%2Fb%5D it%2C but the question was %5Bi%5DHOW%3F%5B%2Fi%5D Please answer the question. Say %22I don%27t know%2C%22 or %22the gun fairy will take them%2C%22 or %5Bi%5Dsomething%5B%2Fi%5D%2C but don%27t reason in circles.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DWhat will registration do besides allow cops to assign blame %28possibly%29 to an already cold body%3F%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DWell%2C that%27s one benefit. And when a cache of stolen weapons is recovered%2C registration data will make it easier for the rightful owners to retrieve their property.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AWeren%27t we discussing %5Bu%5Dthis%5B%2Fu%5D accidental death%3F How%2C exactly%2C would registration have %5Bi%5Dprevented%5B%2Fi%5D this accident%3F Registration wouldn%27t have been useful in this case to assign blame - we knew whose gun it was%2C we didn%27t know who pulled the trigger. I%27ve already covered the %22stolen gun recovery%22 question - use %22%5Blink%3Awww.cmu.edu%2Fpolice%2Fidt.htm%7COperation Identification%5D.%22 Then%2C if your guns are stolen%2C give the police the serial numbers and descriptions. Doing so when you purchase is not necessary if theft recovery is the goal. %0D%0A%0D%0AOne more time with feeling%3A Registration would be a huge financial boondoggle with no benefits. It won%27t make us safer%2C it won%27t make the cop%27s job easier%2C and it will cost a fortune to %28mis%29implement. Registration is good for only one thing - getting a list of law-abiding gun owners and what they own so that at some later date%2C should the government decide to%2C they can demand that those guns be turned in at threat of legal action.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut then%2C I suspect you know that.%0D%0A%0D%0AYou%27ve stated on %5Bi%5Dnumerous%5B%2Fi%5D occasions that you believe %22the number of guns%22 is the problem. Let me go out on a limb here - you want licensing and registration for two reasons%3A %0D%0A%0D%0A1%29 it will make the legal acquisition and retention of firearms more difficult%2C thus making some people decline to jump through the necessary hoops. The English used this method%2C incrementally making the licensing and registration requirements more difficult and expensive to comply with%2C to slowly reduce the number of gun owners to its present tiny number. No reason it shouldn%27t work here%2C except that is%2C by definition%2C government infringement on a fundamental right. A right the English government doesn%27t recognize%2C and a right that gun-controllers here have been trying to convince America that we were not guaranteed under the Second Amendment. %0D%0A%0D%0A2%29 It will allow easier confiscation%2C since the government will know who has what. That worked in England%2C too. Same problem.%0D%0A%0D%0AYou cannot honestly believe it will affect criminal access. I%27ve read quite a bit of your non-gun-control posts%2C so I know you%27re not stupid. You should be capable of logical thought%2C but on this topic%2C apparently not. %28See the circular logic example above.%29 %0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m certain that this is another post that you will find %22not worth reading%2C%22 but that%27s OK. I understand the cognitive dissonance problem is a tough one.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Ddarkgreen size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22If liberty means anything at all%2C it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.%22 %0D%0AGeorge Orwell %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it%27s not an individual right or that it%27s too much of a public safety hazard%2C don%27t see the danger in the big picture. They%27re courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don%27t like.%22 Alan Dershowitz%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Perhaps the most accurate conclusion one can reach with any confidence is that the core meaning of the Second Amendment is a populist %2F republican %2F federalism one%3A Its central object is to arm %27We the People%27 so that ordinary citizens can paricipate in the collective defense of their community and their state. But it does so not through directly protecting a right on the part of states or other collectivities%2C assertable by them against the federal government%2C to arm the populace as they see fit. Rather the amendment achieves its central purpose by assuring that the federal government may not disarm individual citizens without some unusually strong justification consistent with the authority of the states to organize their own militias. That assurance in turn is provided through recognizing a right %28admittedly of uncertain scope%29 on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in the defense of themselves and their homes -- not a right to hunt for game%2C quite clearly%2C and certainly not a right to employ firearms to commit aggressive acts against other persons -- a right that directly limits action by Congress or by the Executive Branch and may well%2C in addition%2C be among the privileges or immunities of United States citizens protected by %A71 of the Fourteenth Amendment against state or local government action.%22 Laurence Tribe%2C American Constitutional Law 902 n. 221 %282000%29%5B%2Ffont%5D|139 144|16|A Question|CO Liberal||10:48:31|08/24/2002|%5Bb%5D%5Bi%5DI%27ve read quite a bit of your non-gun-control posts%2C so I know you%27re not stupid. You should be capable of logical thought%2C but on this topic%2C apparently not. %5B%2Fb%5D%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0ACould it be%2C kh%2C that I AM thinking this issue through logically%2C but you have been so blinded by your own opinions that you cannot see the validity of any opinion other than your own%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AHmmmmmmmm%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %0D%0A%0D%0ACO Liberal%0D%0A%5BI%5D%28Over 5%2C900 Messages Posted%29%5B%2FI%5D%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plauder-smilies.de%2Fmulti.gif%0D%0A%0D%0A%22He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don%27t let that fool you. He really is an idiot.%22 - Groucho Marx%2C prophetically describing George W. Bush%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmacleod.com%2Fsiteimagesfolder%2Fgroucho.gif %0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fus.news2.yimg.com%2Fus.yimg.com%2Fp%2Fnm%2F20020705%2Fmdf64836.jpg%0D%0AWelkome to Bush%27s Amerika.%5B%2Ffont%5D|142 145|17|%2ASigh%2A - I%27M not the one using circular logic%2C CO|khbaker||11:14:48|08/24/2002|I invite you to go review the last couple of exchanges we%27ve had in other threads. I present evidence and data. You reply with unsupported assertions and emotionalism. You even make my points for me. You state that registration will restrict criminal access. I point out that it doesn%27t - and give examples.%0D%0A%0D%0AWho%27s thinking logically here%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd who skipped completely over every actual %5Bi%5Dpoint%5B%2Fi%5D I made in the previous post in order to respond to the diagnosis%3F %0D%0A%0D%0AWith an %22I%27m not - YOU are%21%22 response%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ve made it quite clear - I%27ve studied this subject in detail for a long time. My position is based in fact%2C history%2C logic%2C and law - and supported by study%2C with references.%0D%0A%0D%0AYou%27ve made it quite clear - you haven%27t and aren%27t going to%2C but that isn%27t going to affect your absolute conviction that %22gun control%22 works and is an absolute necessity. You aren%27t only un%5Bi%5Dable%5B%2Fi%5D to argue the facts%2C you%27re %5Bi%5Dunwilling%5B%2Fi%5D to look at the available information. %0D%0A%0D%0AWhat other conclusion can I draw from this%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Ddarkgreen size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22If liberty means anything at all%2C it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.%22 %0D%0AGeorge Orwell %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it%27s not an individual right or that it%27s too much of a public safety hazard%2C don%27t see the danger in the big picture. They%27re courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don%27t like.%22 Alan Dershowitz%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Perhaps the most accurate conclusion one can reach with any confidence is that the core meaning of the Second Amendment is a populist %2F republican %2F federalism one%3A Its central object is to arm %27We the People%27 so that ordinary citizens can paricipate in the collective defense of their community and their state. But it does so not through directly protecting a right on the part of states or other collectivities%2C assertable by them against the federal government%2C to arm the populace as they see fit. Rather the amendment achieves its central purpose by assuring that the federal government may not disarm individual citizens without some unusually strong justification consistent with the authority of the states to organize their own militias. That assurance in turn is provided through recognizing a right %28admittedly of uncertain scope%29 on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in the defense of themselves and their homes -- not a right to hunt for game%2C quite clearly%2C and certainly not a right to employ firearms to commit aggressive acts against other persons -- a right that directly limits action by Congress or by the Executive Branch and may well%2C in addition%2C be among the privileges or immunities of United States citizens protected by %A71 of the Fourteenth Amendment against state or local government action.%22 Laurence Tribe%2C American Constitutional Law 902 n. 221 %282000%29%5B%2Ffont%5D|144 147|18|Draw THIS Conclusion|CO Liberal||17:09:52|08/24/2002|I refuse to accept your assertion that gun control will not work.%0D%0A%0D%0AYou refuse to accept the possibility that it CAN work.%0D%0A%0D%0AHence a draw.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %0D%0A%0D%0ACO Liberal%0D%0A%5BI%5D%28Over 5%2C900 Messages Posted%29%5B%2FI%5D%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plauder-smilies.de%2Fmulti.gif%0D%0A%0D%0A%22He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don%27t let that fool you. He really is an idiot.%22 - Groucho Marx%2C prophetically describing George W. Bush%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmacleod.com%2Fsiteimagesfolder%2Fgroucho.gif %0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fus.news2.yimg.com%2Fus.yimg.com%2Fp%2Fnm%2F20020705%2Fmdf64836.jpg%0D%0AWelkome to Bush%27s Amerika.%5B%2Ffont%5D|145 148|19|Well%2C THAT%27S helpful%2C isn%27t it%3F|khbaker||18:19:32|08/24/2002|So%2C all the objective evidence says %22this doesn%27t work%22 but you want to go ahead with it anyway. This makes sense to you%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AIsn%27t %22doing the same thing over and over again while expecting a different result%22 one definition of insanity%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AI oppose %22gun control%22 - by your definition%2C licensing and registration - for several reasons%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A1%29 It doesn%27t affect the availability of firearms to criminals - if they want them%2C the market will supply them.%0D%0A%0D%0A2%29 Anything resembling universal implementation is impossible because too many gun owners will not comply%2C and %5Bb%5Dnone%5B%2Fb%5D of the currently prohibited possessors will. %28Nor must they%2C as this would violate their 5th Amendment right against self-incrimination.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A3%29 Any attempt at implementation will mean another huge%2C expensive bureaucracy that will pour money down a bottomless legislative hole. %28See Canada%2C New Zealand.%29 Money %28if we%27re going to spend it anyway%29 that would be better spent on other%2C possibly useful efforts. Efforts that we aren%27t exploring because we%27re too busy battling over the costs%2Fbenefits of %22gun control.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AThose are just the practical reasons. There are also political reasons%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A4%29 Licensing and registration makes possible future confiscation%2C which %28we have seen%29 occurs when licensing and registration prove to be ineffective as a crime control measure. %0D%0A%0D%0A5%29 Any attempt at licensing and registration will be met with significant civil disobedience - thus turning normally law-abiding citizens into willful lawbreakers of a fairly serious law. Anything that significantly %5Bi%5Dincreases%5B%2Fi%5D noncompliance with law cannot be seen as a good thing. %22In for a penny%2C in for a pound%22 sound familiar%3F Not only will licensing and registration fail to reduce criminal access%2C it will create a whole new class of criminals. Don%27t we already have a problem with overcrowded jails%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A6%29 There is reason to believe that confiscation is to be expected%2C given the examples of other countries and the words of the leaders of the gun control movement%2C not to mention pressure from extranational groups such as the UN. Also the oft-repeated %22there are too many guns%22 argument by those in this forum lead logically to the conclusion that any and all %22gun control%22 measures supported by these people are directed at %22gun reduction.%22 How else but through ever more restrictive legislation%2C ending in confiscation%3F Modeled%2C of course%2C on that sterling example of Mother England.%0D%0A%0D%0A7%29 The right to arms is an individual fundamental right%2C protected by the Second Amendment of the Constitution. Much%2C if not most of what is proposed must be judged based on its possible infringement of that right. But gun control supporters have spent the last 40 years trying to convince the American public that no such right exists. The legal system%2C until very recently%2C has essentially ignored that right - based on an erroneous interpretation of an 60 year-old Supreme Court decision. Why%3F So that %22gun control%22 can be implemented %5Bi%5Dwithout%5B%2Fi%5D a fundamental rights review. As Alan Dershowitz points out%2C this is not a bright move for those interested in preserving their rights.%0D%0A%0D%0AAgainst all the available evidence%2C these reasons and more%2C you support licensing and registration because you %22%5Bi%5Dbelieve%5B%2Fi%5D it can work.%22%0D%0A%0D%0ADo you also believe that pigs have wings%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Ddarkgreen size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22If liberty means anything at all%2C it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.%22 %0D%0AGeorge Orwell %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it%27s not an individual right or that it%27s too much of a public safety hazard%2C don%27t see the danger in the big picture. They%27re courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don%27t like.%22 Alan Dershowitz%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Perhaps the most accurate conclusion one can reach with any confidence is that the core meaning of the Second Amendment is a populist %2F republican %2F federalism one%3A Its central object is to arm %27We the People%27 so that ordinary citizens can paricipate in the collective defense of their community and their state. But it does so not through directly protecting a right on the part of states or other collectivities%2C assertable by them against the federal government%2C to arm the populace as they see fit. Rather the amendment achieves its central purpose by assuring that the federal government may not disarm individual citizens without some unusually strong justification consistent with the authority of the states to organize their own militias. That assurance in turn is provided through recognizing a right %28admittedly of uncertain scope%29 on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in the defense of themselves and their homes -- not a right to hunt for game%2C quite clearly%2C and certainly not a right to employ firearms to commit aggressive acts against other persons -- a right that directly limits action by Congress or by the Executive Branch and may well%2C in addition%2C be among the privileges or immunities of United States citizens protected by %A71 of the Fourteenth Amendment against state or local government action.%22 Laurence Tribe%2C American Constitutional Law 902 n. 221 %282000%29%5B%2Ffont%5D|147 149|20|You%27re Damn Right I Believe It Can Work|CO Liberal||19:07:20|08/24/2002|As soon as all parties can come together and develop a workable system. But as long as people on either side are as firmly entrenched in their beliefs as you are%2C we ain%27t getting nowhere.%0D%0A%0D%0AJust like this conversation...... %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %0D%0A%0D%0ACO Liberal%0D%0A%5BI%5D%28Over 5%2C900 Messages Posted%29%5B%2FI%5D%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plauder-smilies.de%2Fmulti.gif%0D%0A%0D%0A%22He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don%27t let that fool you. He really is an idiot.%22 - Groucho Marx%2C prophetically describing George W. Bush%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmacleod.com%2Fsiteimagesfolder%2Fgroucho.gif %0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fus.news2.yimg.com%2Fus.yimg.com%2Fp%2Fnm%2F20020705%2Fmdf64836.jpg%0D%0AWelkome to Bush%27s Amerika.%5B%2Ffont%5D|148 150|21|Well%2C my side has %22compromised%22 since 1934|khbaker||19:41:31|08/24/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Aug-24-02 AT 07:43 PM (ET)[/font][p]%22Compromise%22 meaning %22giving up only about half of what your side demanded.%22 And%2C interestingly enough%2C it isn%27t noticeably %5Bi%5Dsafer%5B%2Fi%5D now than it used to be%2C except in %5Bi%5Daccidental%5B%2Fi%5D gunshot deaths. %28You remember those%3F An %5Bi%5Daccidental%5B%2Fi%5D gunshot death is what started this thread.%29 And interestingly enough%2C almost no %22gun control%22 laws passed so far have been %22%5Bi%5Dsafety%5B%2Fi%5D%22 oriented with the exception of mandatory hunter %5Bi%5Dsafety training%5B%2Fi%5D for young people before they get hunting licenses. Other than that%2C they%27ve all been directed at limiting %5Bi%5Dcriminal%5B%2Fi%5D access - and they%27ve all failed. Criminal misuse of guns has waxed and waned not on what gun control legislation has passed%2C but on other laws and other influences. Drugs being the primary one. %0D%0A%0D%0AYour side constantly proclaims that%27s because %22there%27s too many loopholes%22 or %22the law wasn%27t strict%2Fbroad%2Funiversal enough.%22 In other words%2C %22the law lets people keep owning guns.%22 Gun owners figured this out a few years ago. That%27s %5Bb%5Dwhy%5B%2Fb%5D we don%27t %22get together and develop a workable system.%22 We tried that already. It apparently wasn%27t the goal after all. We figured out what the goal actually is - %22reducing the number of guns%22 - by reducing the ones owned by the law-abiding%2C not the ones possessed by criminals. %0D%0A%0D%0AStep One%3A Redefine the Second Amendment.%0D%0A%0D%0AStep Two%3A License and register legal gun owners and their guns.%0D%0A%0D%0AStep Three%3A Moan and gnash teeth over the fact that licensing and registration haven%27t lowered crime or suicide.%0D%0A%0D%0AStep Four%3A Start banning based on cosmetics %28jumped the gun on that one%2C since you can%27t get licensing and registration passed nationwide.%29%0D%0A%0D%0AStep Five%3A Repeat Step Four.%0D%0A%0D%0AHere%27s reality%2C CO - It isn%27t going to happen. We don%27t TRUST your side. We have REASON not to trust your side. We will RESIST your side%2C enthusiastically and tirelessly. We may be a minority%2C but we%27re an active%2C intelligent%2C well-financed%2C and very well organized minority. And the law is beginning to come over to our side. %0D%0A%0D%0AIf you want to affect crime%2C start looking for another way. We very well might join you in that effort%2C but licensing and registration is a dead horse. You may get it passed%2C but be careful what you wish for. The results won%27t be what you expect.%0D%0A%0D%0A%28Edited for spelling.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Ddarkgreen size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22If liberty means anything at all%2C it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.%22 %0D%0AGeorge Orwell %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it%27s not an individual right or that it%27s too much of a public safety hazard%2C don%27t see the danger in the big picture. They%27re courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don%27t like.%22 Alan Dershowitz%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Perhaps the most accurate conclusion one can reach with any confidence is that the core meaning of the Second Amendment is a populist %2F republican %2F federalism one%3A Its central object is to arm %27We the People%27 so that ordinary citizens can paricipate in the collective defense of their community and their state. But it does so not through directly protecting a right on the part of states or other collectivities%2C assertable by them against the federal government%2C to arm the populace as they see fit. Rather the amendment achieves its central purpose by assuring that the federal government may not disarm individual citizens without some unusually strong justification consistent with the authority of the states to organize their own militias. That assurance in turn is provided through recognizing a right %28admittedly of uncertain scope%29 on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in the defense of themselves and their homes -- not a right to hunt for game%2C quite clearly%2C and certainly not a right to employ firearms to commit aggressive acts against other persons -- a right that directly limits action by Congress or by the Executive Branch and may well%2C in addition%2C be among the privileges or immunities of United States citizens protected by %A71 of the Fourteenth Amendment against state or local government action.%22 Laurence Tribe%2C American Constitutional Law 902 n. 221 %282000%29%5B%2Ffont%5D|149 157|22|And We Don%27t Trust YOUR Side|CO Liberal||15:03:03|08/25/2002|There are too many mental midgets out there armed to the teeth. And many of them phone in to the talk shows on a regular basis%2C proclaiming their membership in the NRA os other gun organizations.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s your fellow travelers who scare me to death. That%27s why I don%27t believe that gun ownership is a universal right. To my way of thinking%2C the %22well-regulated%22 portion of the Second Amendment MANDATES tight gun regulation. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %0D%0A%0D%0ACO Liberal%0D%0A%5BI%5D%28Over 5%2C900 Messages Posted%29%5B%2FI%5D%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plauder-smilies.de%2Fmulti.gif%0D%0A%0D%0A%22He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don%27t let that fool you. He really is an idiot.%22 - Groucho Marx%2C prophetically describing George W. Bush%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmacleod.com%2Fsiteimagesfolder%2Fgroucho.gif %0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fus.news2.yimg.com%2Fus.yimg.com%2Fp%2Fnm%2F20020705%2Fmdf64836.jpg%0D%0AWelkome to Bush%27s Amerika.%5B%2Ffont%5D|150 158|23|Thankfully%2C you aren%27t the ones who get to make that decision|khbaker||17:17:31|08/25/2002|%22Mental midgets%22 %28in the derogatory%2C not literal sense%29 get to exercise free speech. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dblue%5D%5Bi%5D%22I%27m all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let%27s start with typewriters.%22%5B%2Fi%5D Frank Lloyd Wright%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Mental midgets%22 get to exercise freedom of religion.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Mental midgets%22 get to exercise freedom of assembly.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Mental midgets%22 get to petition for redress of grievances.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Mental midgets%22 %28supposedly%29 have protection against unreasonable search and seizure.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Mental midgets%22 are protected against incriminating themselves.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Mental midgets%22 get jury trials.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd - imagine that%21 - %22mental midgets%22 have the right to arms.%0D%0A%0D%0AThey have the same rights as the rest of us. That%27s what %22equal under the law%22 means. Honestly%2C a few of them make me uncomfortable too%2C but that%27s an insufficient reason for %5Bi%5Dyou%5B%2Fi%5D to disarm %5Bi%5Dme%5B%2Fi%5D. And when you get down to it%2C that is what is being advocated - guns only for the elite.%0D%0A%0D%0AI know your worldview %5Bi%5Ddepends%5B%2Fi%5D on your believing that the right to arms is not an individual one%2C that%27s why the gun-control movement worked so hard for so long to convince the public that it wasn%27t. The fact remains%2C though - it is. Is it %22universal%3F%22 In my lexicon%2C yes - it means %22applies to all.%22 But I imagine the word you were looking for was %22absolute%2C%22 as in %22no exceptions%2C ever.%22 You%27ve read enough of my stuff to know that I understand that there are no %5Bi%5Dabsolute%5B%2Fi%5D rights. Would licensing and registration unreasonably infringe on the right to arms%3F Requiring a periodic proficiency test%3F Safe storage%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AWould licensing and registration of printing presses%2C computers%2C printers%2C and copying machines infringe on the right of free speech%3F Churches%2C synagogs%2C mosques%2C Bibles%2C Torahs and Korans%3F Should we require a license to speak in public%3F Require a proficiency exam before voting%3F Require safe storage of our internet-capable computers so our children aren%27t able to access online pornography when we aren%27t around%3F Or access online chat rooms where they can converse with pedophiles who will later abduct%2C rape and kill them%3F Allow our police to enter our homes to ensure compliance with the new laws - without a warrant or probable cause%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AIf you%27re a good citizen%2C why would you object%3F It makes you look like you%27ve got something to hide%3F Right%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AThe right to arms %5Bi%5Dis a right%5B%2Fi%5D. You don%27t believe that%2C but I do - and %5Bi%5Dall the evidence says that it is.%5B%2Fi%5D Your side may eventually end up convincing the majority of Americans it isn%27t%2C but that won%27t change the fact that it is - and was intended to be protected by the Second Amendment to the Constitution against infringement. And as Chief Justice Marshall wrote in %5Bi%5DMarbury v. Madison%5B%2Fi%5D in 1803%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dblue%5DThus%2C the particular phraseology of the constitution of the United States confirms and strengthens the principle%2C supposed to be essential to all written constitutions%2C that a law repugnant to the constitution is void%3B and that courts%2C as well as other departments%2C are bound by that instrument.%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AWe%27ve been reminding the courts of that for decades. They%27re beginning to listen%2C even if you are not.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Ddarkgreen size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22If liberty means anything at all%2C it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.%22 %0D%0AGeorge Orwell %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it%27s not an individual right or that it%27s too much of a public safety hazard%2C don%27t see the danger in the big picture. They%27re courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don%27t like.%22 Alan Dershowitz%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Perhaps the most accurate conclusion one can reach with any confidence is that the core meaning of the Second Amendment is a populist %2F republican %2F federalism one%3A Its central object is to arm %27We the People%27 so that ordinary citizens can paricipate in the collective defense of their community and their state. But it does so not through directly protecting a right on the part of states or other collectivities%2C assertable by them against the federal government%2C to arm the populace as they see fit. Rather the amendment achieves its central purpose by assuring that the federal government may not disarm individual citizens without some unusually strong justification consistent with the authority of the states to organize their own militias. That assurance in turn is provided through recognizing a right %28admittedly of uncertain scope%29 on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in the defense of themselves and their homes -- not a right to hunt for game%2C quite clearly%2C and certainly not a right to employ firearms to commit aggressive acts against other persons -- a right that directly limits action by Congress or by the Executive Branch and may well%2C in addition%2C be among the privileges or immunities of United States citizens protected by %A71 of the Fourteenth Amendment against state or local government action.%22 Laurence Tribe%2C American Constitutional Law 902 n. 221 %282000%29%5B%2Ffont%5D|157 159|24|Look .....|CO Liberal||09:51:16|08/26/2002|I%27ve been through this again and again.%0D%0A%0D%0AYou can roll out all the NRA-approved %22proof%22 you want - it%27s not gonna change my opinion.%0D%0A%0D%0AYou have become so blinded by your need to have a gun at your disposal that you are unable to see the other view. And I have become so nauseated by the likes of Charleton Heston%2C Wayne LaPierre%2C Ted Nugent%2C Bob Barr%2C and the local gun nuts here in Colorado that I refuse to accept yours.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m not going to respond to you any more on this thread%2C kh%2C because I don%27t want to see this degenerate into a flamefest. In the interest of DU%2C I am droppingf it%2C and I suggest you do the same. We%27re getting nowhere. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %0D%0A%0D%0ACO Liberal%0D%0A%5BI%5D%28Over 5%2C900 Messages Posted%29%5B%2FI%5D%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plauder-smilies.de%2Fmulti.gif%0D%0A%0D%0A%22He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don%27t let that fool you. He really is an idiot.%22 - Groucho Marx%2C prophetically describing George W. Bush%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmacleod.com%2Fsiteimagesfolder%2Fgroucho.gif %0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fus.news2.yimg.com%2Fus.yimg.com%2Fp%2Fnm%2F20020705%2Fmdf64836.jpg%0D%0AWelkome to Bush%27s Amerika.%5B%2Ffont%5D|158 160|25|Have you not been paying attention%3F|khbaker||10:39:20|08/26/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Aug-26-02 AT 11:26 AM (ET)[/font][p]You and I %5Bi%5Dnever%5B%2Fi%5D %22get anywhere.%22 I%27ve %5Bi%5Dtold you%5B%2Fi%5D I don%27t respond to your posts in order to persuade %5Bi%5Dyou.%5B%2Fi%5D If I were interested in doing that%2C I could just find a convenient wall to bang my head against instead.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dblue%5D%5Bi%5DYou have become so blinded by your need to have a gun at your disposal that you are unable to see the other view.%5B%2Fi%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m well aware of %22the other view.%22 I understand it quite well - really. People want the world to be a safer place. So do I. But%2C like almost all gun-control fanatics %28that%27s descriptive%2C not a pejorative - I%27m a gun-%5Bi%5Drights%5B%2Fi%5D fanatic%2C %22fanatic%22 defined as %22someone who won%27t shut up and won%27t change the subject%22%29 you try to marginalize %5Bi%5Dmy%5B%2Fi%5D view by denigrating it as a %22need to have a gun at %28my%29 disposal.%22%0D%0A%0D%0ANo%2C one more time%2C my %5Bi%5Dprimary%5B%2Fi%5D interest is in my %5Bi%5Denumerated civil rights.%5B%2Fi%5D Among which%2C only the individual right to arms fails to receive the protection of most civil-liberties organizations. Only %5Bi%5Dthat%5B%2Fi%5D right is under concerted attack by multiple advocacy organizations. You don%27t see groups actively working to restrict voting rights. It%27s the weak link in the chain. Yes%2C I%27m a shooter%2C so the gutting of the Second Amendment affects me directly. But it affects you too%2C and it affects public safety also. You just refuse to see it.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Dblue%5D%5Bi%5DAnd I have become so nauseated by the likes of Charleton Heston%2C Wayne LaPierre%2C Ted Nugent%2C Bob Barr%2C and the local gun nuts here in Colorado that I refuse to accept yours.%5B%2Fi%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AThat%27s it in a nutshell%3A %22I%27m having an emotional response%2C so actual information is irrelevant to my position. I%27ve made up my mind. Don%27t confuse me with the facts.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AOne thing I truly believe is if you look at the evidence with an open mind%2C you will conclude that the right is an individual one%2C guaranteed to us by the Second Amendment. Even Laurence Tribe changed his tune. That%27s why I quote him in my sig file.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd that%27s why I engage in these little exchanges%2C CO - you%27re such a stereotypical example of your type%2C you make a model posterboy.%0D%0A%0D%0ADon Kates once said that the defense of the Second Amendment was the %22more sophisticated argument being made by the less sophisticated advocates.%22 He made that comment about 20 years ago. A lot has changed in the last 20 years.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Ddarkgreen size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22If liberty means anything at all%2C it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.%22 %0D%0AGeorge Orwell %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it%27s not an individual right or that it%27s too much of a public safety hazard%2C don%27t see the danger in the big picture. They%27re courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don%27t like.%22 Alan Dershowitz%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Perhaps the most accurate conclusion one can reach with any confidence is that the core meaning of the Second Amendment is a populist %2F republican %2F federalism one%3A Its central object is to arm %27We the People%27 so that ordinary citizens can paricipate in the collective defense of their community and their state. But it does so not through directly protecting a right on the part of states or other collectivities%2C assertable by them against the federal government%2C to arm the populace as they see fit. Rather the amendment achieves its central purpose by assuring that the federal government may not disarm individual citizens without some unusually strong justification consistent with the authority of the states to organize their own militias. That assurance in turn is provided through recognizing a right %28admittedly of uncertain scope%29 on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in the defense of themselves and their homes -- not a right to hunt for game%2C quite clearly%2C and certainly not a right to employ firearms to commit aggressive acts against other persons -- a right that directly limits action by Congress or by the Executive Branch and may well%2C in addition%2C be among the privileges or immunities of United States citizens protected by %A71 of the Fourteenth Amendment against state or local government action.%22 Laurence Tribe%2C American Constitutional Law 902 n. 221 %282000%29%5B%2Ffont%5D|159 151|21|you can|AdamSelenne||19:47:41|08/24/2002|believe the sky is pink also.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut that wont make it so.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut I am willing to come together as make a %27workable%27 system.%0D%0A%0D%0AOf course a %27workable%27 system will probably not involve licenses or registration. So you wouldnt be willing to dicuss it.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe Gun Owners%2C the gun rights%2C side has been the only side that has ever been willing to compromise. Now they have stopped because the ulterior motives of the opposition has slowly become clear. Whether or not that opposition will even admit it to themselves.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut reading this exchange between Khbaker and COliberal has been entertaining at least. One side of the debate has brought forth an argument and has discussed at length their points and the other side has sat there with their fingers in their ears saying %27IDONTHEARYOUIDONTHEARYOUIDONTHEARYOU%27 over and over.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DAdam Selene%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Today%2C we need a nation of Minutemen%2C citizens who are not only prepared to take arms%2C but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.%22 -JKF%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue.%22 -B Goldwater%0D%0A%0D%0A%22All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.%22 - E Burke%0D%0A%0D%0A%22There is no doubt in my mind that millions of lives could have been saved if the people had not been %91brainwashed%92 about gun ownership and they had been well armed. Hitler%27s thugs and goons were not very brave when confronted by a gun. Gun haters always want to forget the Warsaw Ghetto uprising%2C which is a perfect example of how a ragtag%2C half starved group of Jews took up 10 handguns and made asses out of the Nazi%27s.%22 -T Haas %28Dachau survivor%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%22You can only protect your liberties in this world by protecting the other man%27s freedom. You can only be free if I am.%22 -C Darrow%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it%22 -G B Shaw%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit%2C occidentis telum est.%22 -Lucius Annaeus %28Seneca %27the Younger%27%29%5B%2Ffont%5D|149 143|14|What will registration do besides allow cops to assign blame %28possibly%29 to an already cold body%3F|curse10||23:58:28|08/23/2002|That%27s reason enough%21 You%27d really rather see murders go unsolved just so you can keep your arsenal in secret%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AI just don%27t understand that mentality.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%5Bcenter%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.flexluther.com%2FKirsten%2Fdebs.jpg%5B%2Fcenter%5D%0D%0A%22These are the gentry who are today wrapped up in the American flag%2C who shout their claim from the housetops that they are the only patriots%2C and who have their magnifying glasses in hand%2C scanning the country for evidence of disloyalty%2C eager to apply the brand of treason to the men who dare to even whisper their opposition to Junker rule in the United Sates. No wonder Sam Johnson declared that %93patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.%94 He must have had this Wall Street gentry in mind%2C or at least their prototypes%2C for in every age it has been the tyrant%2C the oppressor and the exploiter who has wrapped himself in the cloak of patriotism%2C or religion%2C or both to deceive and overawe the people.%22 --Eugene Debs%2C June 16%2C 1918%2C The Canton%2C Ohio Anit-War Speech %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|138 146|15|Crime guns are already traceable|nick_danger||13:27:17|08/24/2002|Thanks to the Gun Control Act of 1968%2C it is possible to trace the origin of just about any firearm that hasn%27t had its serial number removed.%0D%0A%0D%0AHow would registration make them any more traceable%3F I suppose if every gun was registered and the registry kept up to date it might help in a few cases%2C but%0D%0A%0D%0AA%29 How much would it cost to establish and maintain the registry%3F Could that money be spend in other ways that would have a more beneficial effect on law enforcement%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AB%29 There will always be some crime guns that are untraceable because they were never registered or had their serial numbers removed. A registry does nothing about those%2C and%0D%0A%0D%0AC%29 Many guns used in crimes are stolen. What good does a registry do when the weapon was stolen%2C other than facilitate returning it to its rightful owner %28as if the government would ever do that%29%3F|143 154|15|When was the last murder prevented because of registration%3F|PorcupinePhil||23:10:08|08/24/2002|I can%27t think of a single one...%0D%0A%0D%0ARegarding catching the perpetrator%2C you can catch perpetrators better if you allow the police to beat confessions out of suspects...but that would be unacceptable %28at least to me%2C maybe not to you...%29%0D%0A%0D%0ALet me ask you this...if you aren%27t hurting anybody%2C why should the government keep track of you%3F What happened to your right to privacy%3F |143 155|16|Unfortunately%2C Phil%2C it%27s impossible to %22prove%22 a negative.|khbaker||09:04:13|08/25/2002|You can only point to the examples where registration has %5Bi%5Dfailed%5B%2Fi%5D to prevent a homicide - not the ones where it might have succeeded.%0D%0A%0D%0ADo try to be fair about it%2C eh%3F I will at least admit to the possibility that registration could allow the disarming of someone proven violent and %5Bi%5Dmaybe%5B%2Fi%5D save a life. However%2C unlike the gun-control side%2C I also can envision where registration could also %5Bi%5Dcost%5B%2Fi%5D lives. They don%27t. So%2C could it %22save just one life%3F%22 Possibly. Could it also %22cost just one life%3F%22 Also possibly. The benefits are outweighed by other risks%2C IMO.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Ddarkgreen size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22If liberty means anything at all%2C it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.%22 %0D%0AGeorge Orwell %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it%27s not an individual right or that it%27s too much of a public safety hazard%2C don%27t see the danger in the big picture. They%27re courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don%27t like.%22 Alan Dershowitz%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Perhaps the most accurate conclusion one can reach with any confidence is that the core meaning of the Second Amendment is a populist %2F republican %2F federalism one%3A Its central object is to arm %27We the People%27 so that ordinary citizens can paricipate in the collective defense of their community and their state. But it does so not through directly protecting a right on the part of states or other collectivities%2C assertable by them against the federal government%2C to arm the populace as they see fit. Rather the amendment achieves its central purpose by assuring that the federal government may not disarm individual citizens without some unusually strong justification consistent with the authority of the states to organize their own militias. That assurance in turn is provided through recognizing a right %28admittedly of uncertain scope%29 on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in the defense of themselves and their homes -- not a right to hunt for game%2C quite clearly%2C and certainly not a right to employ firearms to commit aggressive acts against other persons -- a right that directly limits action by Congress or by the Executive Branch and may well%2C in addition%2C be among the privileges or immunities of United States citizens protected by %A71 of the Fourteenth Amendment against state or local government action.%22 Laurence Tribe%2C American Constitutional Law 902 n. 221 %282000%29%5B%2Ffont%5D|154 140|11|My motivation is also simple|Liberal Classic||18:54:35|08/23/2002|%5Bi%5DI want this to be a safer world.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AI want it to be a %5Bb%5Dfreer%5B%2Fb%5D world.%0D%0A%0D%0AI want harsh penalties for violent behavior%2C whether a gun is used%2C a knife%2C or bare hands.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s that simple. And for that I am told my %22vision is clouded%22 or I am a %22ignorant%22 or worse.%0D%0A|133 152|1|Does matcom know this sucker is still burning over a month after|WilliamPitt||19:54:30|08/24/2002|he posted it. Wow. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bcenter%5DI don%27t know but I been told%2C if the horse don%27t pull you%27ve got to carry the load%2C%0D%0AI don%27t know who%27s back%27s that strong%2C maybe find out before too long.%0D%0AOne way or another...this darkness has got to give.%0D%0A%0D%0A- Robert Hunter%2C Jerry Garcia%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Blink%3Awww.participatory-democracy.org%7CBeware the Ides of March%5D%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.webdeveloper.com%2Fanimations%2Fbnifiles%2Fpuma.gif http%3A%2F%2Fwww.valaquenta.com%2Fgwb%2Fimages%2Fbush.gif http%3A%2F%2Fwww.webdeveloper.com%2Fanimations%2Fbnifiles%2Fpuma.gif %0D%0AAnger is a gift.%0D%0AGKS2002%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|0 153|2|Not all that uncommon here|curse10||21:50:25|08/24/2002|in ol%27 Justice%2FPublic Safety. People like to drag up even older posts sometimes.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%5Bcenter%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.flexluther.com%2FKirsten%2Fdebs.jpg%5B%2Fcenter%5D%0D%0A%22These are the gentry who are today wrapped up in the American flag%2C who shout their claim from the housetops that they are the only patriots%2C and who have their magnifying glasses in hand%2C scanning the country for evidence of disloyalty%2C eager to apply the brand of treason to the men who dare to even whisper their opposition to Junker rule in the United Sates. No wonder Sam Johnson declared that %93patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.%94 He must have had this Wall Street gentry in mind%2C or at least their prototypes%2C for in every age it has been the tyrant%2C the oppressor and the exploiter who has wrapped himself in the cloak of patriotism%2C or religion%2C or both to deceive and overawe the people.%22 --Eugene Debs%2C June 16%2C 1918%2C The Canton%2C Ohio Anit-War Speech %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|152 162|3|It%27s Called %22Beating a Dead Horse%22|CO Liberal||19:16:39|08/26/2002|%3A-%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %0D%0A%0D%0ACO Liberal%0D%0A%5BI%5D%28Over 5%2C900 Messages Posted%29%5B%2FI%5D%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plauder-smilies.de%2Fmulti.gif%0D%0A%0D%0A%22He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don%27t let that fool you. He really is an idiot.%22 - Groucho Marx%2C prophetically describing George W. Bush%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmacleod.com%2Fsiteimagesfolder%2Fgroucho.gif %0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fus.news2.yimg.com%2Fus.yimg.com%2Fp%2Fnm%2F20020705%2Fmdf64836.jpg%0D%0AWelkome to Bush%27s Amerika.%5B%2Ffont%5D|153 156|2|Aw%2C c%27mon%2C admit it.|khbaker||09:13:30|08/25/2002|These threads are fascinating reading%21%3Aevilgrin%3A%0D%0A%0D%0AI will say%2C though%2C that this thread had pretty much died until the report of the vendor being charged. That%27s what revived it.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Ddarkgreen size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22If liberty means anything at all%2C it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.%22 %0D%0AGeorge Orwell %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it%27s not an individual right or that it%27s too much of a public safety hazard%2C don%27t see the danger in the big picture. They%27re courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don%27t like.%22 Alan Dershowitz%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Perhaps the most accurate conclusion one can reach with any confidence is that the core meaning of the Second Amendment is a populist %2F republican %2F federalism one%3A Its central object is to arm %27We the People%27 so that ordinary citizens can paricipate in the collective defense of their community and their state. But it does so not through directly protecting a right on the part of states or other collectivities%2C assertable by them against the federal government%2C to arm the populace as they see fit. Rather the amendment achieves its central purpose by assuring that the federal government may not disarm individual citizens without some unusually strong justification consistent with the authority of the states to organize their own militias. That assurance in turn is provided through recognizing a right %28admittedly of uncertain scope%29 on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in the defense of themselves and their homes -- not a right to hunt for game%2C quite clearly%2C and certainly not a right to employ firearms to commit aggressive acts against other persons -- a right that directly limits action by Congress or by the Executive Branch and may well%2C in addition%2C be among the privileges or immunities of United States citizens protected by %A71 of the Fourteenth Amendment against state or local government action.%22 Laurence Tribe%2C American Constitutional Law 902 n. 221 %282000%29%5B%2Ffont%5D|152 161|3|Gotcha|WilliamPitt||17:35:58|08/26/2002|%3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bcenter%5DI don%27t know but I been told%2C if the horse don%27t pull you%27ve got to carry the load%2C%0D%0AI don%27t know who%27s back%27s that strong%2C maybe find out before too long.%0D%0AOne way or another...this darkness has got to give.%0D%0A%0D%0A- Robert Hunter%2C Jerry Garcia%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Blink%3Awww.participatory-democracy.org%7CBeware the Ides of March%5D%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.webdeveloper.com%2Fanimations%2Fbnifiles%2Fpuma.gif http%3A%2F%2Fwww.valaquenta.com%2Fgwb%2Fimages%2Fbush.gif http%3A%2F%2Fwww.webdeveloper.com%2Fanimations%2Fbnifiles%2Fpuma.gif %0D%0AAnger is a gift.%0D%0AGKS2002%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|156 163|4|OK%2C I gotta ask.|khbaker||12:03:48|08/27/2002|Why %22gotcha%3F%22 %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Ddarkgreen size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22If liberty means anything at all%2C it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.%22 %0D%0AGeorge Orwell %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it%27s not an individual right or that it%27s too much of a public safety hazard%2C don%27t see the danger in the big picture. They%27re courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don%27t like.%22 Alan Dershowitz%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Perhaps the most accurate conclusion one can reach with any confidence is that the core meaning of the Second Amendment is a populist %2F republican %2F federalism one%3A Its central object is to arm %27We the People%27 so that ordinary citizens can paricipate in the collective defense of their community and their state. But it does so not through directly protecting a right on the part of states or other collectivities%2C assertable by them against the federal government%2C to arm the populace as they see fit. Rather the amendment achieves its central purpose by assuring that the federal government may not disarm individual citizens without some unusually strong justification consistent with the authority of the states to organize their own militias. That assurance in turn is provided through recognizing a right %28admittedly of uncertain scope%29 on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in the defense of themselves and their homes -- not a right to hunt for game%2C quite clearly%2C and certainly not a right to employ firearms to commit aggressive acts against other persons -- a right that directly limits action by Congress or by the Executive Branch and may well%2C in addition%2C be among the privileges or immunities of United States citizens protected by %A71 of the Fourteenth Amendment against state or local government action.%22 Laurence Tribe%2C American Constitutional Law 902 n. 221 %282000%29%5B%2Ffont%5D|161 164|1|more weapons %3D%3D more death|ThinkTank||06:27:29|08/28/2002|%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dnever offend them with style when you can offend them with substance%5B%2Ffont%5D|0 165|2|ummm|AdamSelenne||06:55:51|08/28/2002|care to back that up with more than just histrionics%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DAdam Selene%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Today%2C we need a nation of Minutemen%2C citizens who are not only prepared to take arms%2C but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.%22 -JKF%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue.%22 -B Goldwater%0D%0A%0D%0A%22All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.%22 - E Burke%0D%0A%0D%0A%22There is no doubt in my mind that millions of lives could have been saved if the people had not been %91brainwashed%92 about gun ownership and they had been well armed. Hitler%27s thugs and goons were not very brave when confronted by a gun. Gun haters always want to forget the Warsaw Ghetto uprising%2C which is a perfect example of how a ragtag%2C half starved group of Jews took up 10 handguns and made asses out of the Nazi%27s.%22 -T Haas %28Dachau survivor%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%22You can only protect your liberties in this world by protecting the other man%27s freedom. You can only be free if I am.%22 -C Darrow%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it%22 -G B Shaw%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit%2C occidentis telum est.%22 -Lucius Annaeus %28Seneca %27the Younger%27%29%5B%2Ffont%5D|164 166|2|never offend them with style when you can offend them with substance |khbaker||08:10:32|08/28/2002|You don%27t read your own signature lines%2C do you%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3Ddarkgreen size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22If liberty means anything at all%2C it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.%22 %0D%0AGeorge Orwell %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it%27s not an individual right or that it%27s too much of a public safety hazard%2C don%27t see the danger in the big picture. They%27re courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don%27t like.%22 Alan Dershowitz%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Perhaps the most accurate conclusion one can reach with any confidence is that the core meaning of the Second Amendment is a populist %2F republican %2F federalism one%3A Its central object is to arm %27We the People%27 so that ordinary citizens can paricipate in the collective defense of their community and their state. But it does so not through directly protecting a right on the part of states or other collectivities%2C assertable by them against the federal government%2C to arm the populace as they see fit. Rather the amendment achieves its central purpose by assuring that the federal government may not disarm individual citizens without some unusually strong justification consistent with the authority of the states to organize their own militias. That assurance in turn is provided through recognizing a right %28admittedly of uncertain scope%29 on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in the defense of themselves and their homes -- not a right to hunt for game%2C quite clearly%2C and certainly not a right to employ firearms to commit aggressive acts against other persons -- a right that directly limits action by Congress or by the Executive Branch and may well%2C in addition%2C be among the privileges or immunities of United States citizens protected by %A71 of the Fourteenth Amendment against state or local government action.%22 Laurence Tribe%2C American Constitutional Law 902 n. 221 %282000%29%5B%2Ffont%5D|164