162||0|5yes 0|0|Man Banned from Reproducing|lazarus||18:19:13|11/23/2001|MADISON%2C Wis. -- The Wisconsin Supreme Court affirmed a ban Friday preventing a father of nine who owes child support from having more children unless he proves he will support all his offspring. %0D%0A%0D%0Asnip%0D%0A%0D%0A%22The exceptional circumstances outlined show an intentional unwillingness to pay child support%2C%22 the court said in Friday%27s decision. %0D%0A%0D%0Amore%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsday.com%2Fnews%2Fnationworld%2Fwire%2Fsns-ap-fathers-rights1123nov23.story%3Fcoll%3Dsns%252Dap%252Dnationworld%252Dheadlines%0D%0A%0D%0AI hate to say it%2C but this is nothing but the court interfering with reproductive rights. Where%27s the outrage%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 1|1|Here%27s the outrage...|Gin||18:39:54|11/23/2001|My tax dollars are supporting these kids while all he does is fornicate and bring more babies into the world. I say...way to go Judge%21 I am in favor of a mandatory vasectomy so he can%27t make anymore babies. 6|2|I see|lazarus||19:14:08|11/23/2001|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Nov-23-01 AT 07:21 PM (ET)[/font][p]So%2C we should tie the tubes of any mother on welfare%3F How about if we also force them to have abortions%3F How is that any different%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DMy tax dollars are supporting these kids %5B%2Fi%5D%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AI see. So%2C it%27s fine that the women aren%27t supporting the kids%2C but the guy should be castrated%3F How does that make sense to you%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 126|3|lazarus|Maine Mary||07:38:29|11/25/2001|What makes you think the women in this case are on welfare%3F I didn%27t see anything in the article that said so. In fact%2C there was nothing in the article that suggested the children are the beneficiaries of any public assistance whatsoever. Therefore%2C your%2C my%2C or the other poster%27s tax dollars are NOT involved.%0D%0A%0D%0AChild support and welfare are two very different things. One should never confuse%2C or try to equate the two. %0D%0A%0D%0AIf the man in this case is not paying child support he should not have any more children. Forced vasectomy would be innappropriate and I would object to that%2C but I see no reason to be outraged by this decision.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe real outrage here is the fact that this man is not living up to his end of the obligation%28s%29 The mothers of his children are. What makes him so special that he doesn%27t have to%3F %0D%0A%0D%0AWhat about the first%2C second%2C or third children in this case%3F What about all 9 of them%3F If and when he finally does live up to his obligations%2C the amount of child suuport for these children becomes less and less as more children are added to the picture. Unless the man has an incrediably good income%2C the current 9 won%27t get much as it is%2C even if he does pay. Why should these children suffer because their father refuses to take responsibility for his own reproduction%3F %0D%0A%0D%0AI see this decision as nothing more then protection for the children which should be our society%27s first priority. The court did the right thing. If and when the man proves he can live up to the responsibility of supporting all the children he has %28or more%29 then fine. But until then SOMEONE needs to put a stop to this man%27s baby making if he can%27t do it himself. 129|4|Easy|lazarus||13:50:09|11/25/2001|%5Bi%5DBut until then SOMEONE needs to put a stop to this man%27s baby making if he can%27t do it himself. %5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0ASounds an awful lot the %22Welfare Queen%22 stories used to justify various proposals for sterilisation a while back. How about his partners quit getting pregnant by him%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 132|5|Why are you blaming|Maine Mary||19:43:16|11/25/2001|the mothers in this case%3F From what I gather%2C there is more then one of them so obviously they did not make 9 of their own children%2C HE did%21%21%21 %0D%0A%0D%0AThey are not reniging on their obligation to provide support to their offspring%2C HE is. I don%27t think it%27s the court%27s position that he has too many children%2C but rather that he%27s not paying for them. I%27m sure the court would not care if he had 100 kids as long as he supports them. He is NOT supporting them%2C that%27s why HE is the focus of this decision and not the mothers who ARE supporting them.%0D%0A%0D%0AIf the situation were reversed and a women was the non-custodial parent of 9 children while not paying child support%2C I%27d want the court to order the same thing of her...no more children until you can pay for the ones you have. It wouldn%27t even occur to me to blame the custodial fathers because they%2C as custodial parents would be living up to their obligation. Nor would I add insult to their injury %28of not recieving adequate financial compensation from the other parent%29 by even implying that they should not have sired the children or should not have any more. What would these fathers be doing that warrant that%3F It%27s not their fault that the woman in this hypothetical case went around making 9 babies.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd finally%2C why do you insist on bringing welfare into this%3F This story is about Child Support%2C NOT welfare. It is also not about forced sterilization. %0D%0A 134|6|I didn%27t realise|lazarus||01:04:29|11/26/2001|That you support eugenics. Which is what this is%2C economically.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 143|7|You seem to like this point laz%2C|Maine Mary||20:29:28|11/26/2001|since I see you%27ve now made it twice. Too bad economic eugenics does not apply to this case.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe man made 9 children for God%27s sake%21 How many more does he need%3F He was not denied the opportunity at least 9 times to be %22fruitful and multiply%22 I don%27t know this man%27s economic status but even wealthy people rarely sire that many children. %0D%0A%0D%0ANot paying CS is a criminal act %28as it should be%29. What would you suggest for punishment instead%3F That he go to jail%3F He wouldn%27t be able to make babies there either and his current 9 children would then receive NO support. %0D%0A%0D%0AI say a temporary halt to his one man baby show is totally appropriate in this case. He apparently doesn%27t care much about the children he has already%2C so why would he want more%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AMaybe the court decision will force him for once in his life to take control of his own ferility and not leave it up to the woman as so many men do.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A 144|8|Considering|lazarus||01:14:47|11/27/2001|He%27s paid 70%25 of his CS. As far as your last bit%2C about so many men %22leaving it up to the woman%22%2C well%2C you don%27t know what you%27re talking about. How about all the men who %5Bi%5Dwant%5B%2Fi%5D to be a part of their child%27s life%2C but are prevented%3F How about the men who want to continue to have a family%2C but she decides she doesn%27t%3F Happens a lot more that way%2C these days.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd the women could take control of their fertility as well%2C you know. We seem to be ignoring that part.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 145|9|I%27m glad someone said it...|ken99||03:18:32|11/27/2001|I believe the government has NO right to effectively castrade this individual for his lack of child support.%0D%0A%0D%0AIf you believe in this then you must also believe in mandatory sterilization for the mothers of the childern also. A previously mentioned every one of those women also could have took control of their reproduction.%0D%0A%0D%0AShould he pay what is due to the children %3F...hey%2C you%27ll get no argument from me. %0D%0A%0D%0ABut I cannot EVER%2C allow the government to participate in cruel and unusual punishment.%0D%0A%0D%0AThis may be a cop-out%2C but unless these women were raped%2C they consented to have sex it took both of them to make the baby. So again I say what if we advocated steralizing women. %0D%0A%0D%0AHow many children is too many%3F %0D%0A3 %3F%0D%0A4 %3F%0D%0A%0D%0A.....it never has flown%2C and never will fly....%0D%0A%0D%0Athis kind of ruling cannot possibly be applied equally which makes it inherently unfair. %0D%0A%0D%0AI cannot advocate unfair laws.%0D%0A 146|10|Ken%2C did you even read|Maine Mary||07:03:00|11/27/2001|this article%3F %0D%0A%0D%0AFirst of all NO ONE is being sterilized. Male or Female. If that were the case%2C I%27d object too. The courts just told him to temporarily put a stop to the baby making.%0D%0A%0D%0ASecond%2C why should the women stop %28or never start-as you suggest%29their reproduction%3F They have done nothing wrong. They ARE supporting their children. This man is not. I repeat%2C they are supporting their children%2C this man is not. I see no problem with the women that needs to be rectified.%0D%0A%0D%0AI do%2C however have a problem with someone who does not pay child support. If the situation was reversed and a women went around making baby after baby but not providing full child support to the custodial parent%28s%29 I%27d want the court to say the same thing to her.%0D%0A %0D%0A HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION%0D%0AOr think of it this way...Hypothetically%2C Say you and a business partner togethor went out and bought stock on 9 different occaisions%2C but only your partner paid every time for his half. What would happen%3F Most likely the business partner would be stuck paying your portion %28if he wants his credit to stay in good standing%29. %0D%0A%0D%0ASO two things should then happen...First%2C your partner should sue you for the money he is out and Second%2C You should not be given the opportunity to screw over anyone else again%2C at least until you pay off your original debt to the business partner.%0D%0A%0D%0A HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION APPLIED%0D%0AWhen you say the women should have had some had some responsibility in this you are blaming the victim. That would be like blaming the business partner who did nothing wrong. HE paid for his half and then had to turn around and pay for yours. Why should he not be allowed to buy anymore stock when he has proven to be totally trustworthy%3F And why should he forever be stuck with your portion of the bill%3F %0D%0A%0D%0AThe business partner may have %22consented%22 %28ie. this case-consented to sex%29 to buy the stock 9 times%2C but who could%27ve predicted that YOU would not pay your portion%3F Maybe the business partner was a poor judge of charactor%2C but that does not make him at fault for what YOU do. %0D%0A%0D%0AFurthermore%2C if you continue to be allowed to go out and buy more stock%2C %28or as in this case make more babies%29 wouldn%27t it become that much harder for the business partner to get his money back%3F Yes it would be%2C because you%27d be falling deeper into debt. All the court is saying that the man needs to pay off his past debts %28or as in this case stop making babies%29 before he makes more- for the protection of everyone involved.%0D%0A%0D%0A-----------------------------------------------------------%0D%0A%0D%0AObviously this is a weird analogy. Babies are more precious then any material thing%2C but the situation in this case should not be looked at any differently. The man renigged on his obligation. The women involved did not. %0D%0A%0D%0AWhat is REALLY unfair is when the victim is blamed. THAT%27S the outrage.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A 147|9|Replies|Maine Mary||11:40:12|11/27/2001|%22And the women could take control of their fertility as well%2C you know. We seem to be ignoring that part%22%0D%0A%0D%0AEVERYONE%2C male or female should control their own fertility. For example%2C I have 1 child. I don%27t want any more. So I take measures to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. My fiancee%2C who has no children of his own%2C is content with that. IF however%2C he deciedes he wants children he can have them. Just not with me. And there would be nothing he could do that would %22force%22 ME to have them. He%27d just have to find someone else. I%27m sure there are plenty of women out there who would love to be the mother of his child%28ren%29.%0D%0A%0D%0ANow%2C if the situation were reversed and he wanted no children%2C he%27d need to use birth control. Regardless of whether I wanted children or not%2Cor use BC or not%2C he knows HE does not want them%2C so why take chances%3F As long as he uses birth control there would be no reason to worry about me %22forcing%22 him into unwanted parenthood. %0D%0A%0D%0AI don%27t care if you are male or female. IF YOU DON%27T WANT CHILDREN%2C USE BC%21%21%21%0D%0A%0D%0AYour other point%28s%29...%28I%27ve %23rd them to make it easier%29%0D%0A%0D%0A1%29He%27s paid 70%25 of his CS. %0D%0A2%29As far as your last bit%2C about so many men %22leaving it up to the woman%22%2C well%2C you don%27t know what you%27re talking about. %0D%0A3%29How about all the men who want to be a part of their child%27s life%2C but are prevented%3F %0D%0A4%29How about the men who want to continue to have a family%2C but she decides she doesn%27t%3F Happens a lot more that way%2C these days.%22%0D%0A-laz%0D%0A%0D%0ANUMBER 1...%22He paid 70 percent of his CS.%22... SO%21%3F%21 Who%27se paying 100 percent of their own portion and 30 percent of his%3F The mother%28s%29. Please explain to me how that%27s fair%3F%0D%0ANUMBER 2...I think I%27ve covered that%2C but I will reiterate...Men AND women need to control their own fertility according to what they want. If they don%27t want children%2C they should use BC and not rely on their partner to do it. It is as much a male responsibility as it is female.%0D%0ANUMBER 3...Regardless of whether the man or woman pays CS%2C they have a LEGAL right to see their child. If the custodial parent is preventing that%2C then they are doing so ilegally. If this is happening to you%2C haul the custodial parent%27s butt back to court.%0D%0ANUMBER 4...I think I%27ve covered this too%2C but again%2C if your partner %28be it male or female%29 does not want children and you do%2C FIND SOMEONE ELSE%21 If your partner does not want the same thing as you on an issue this big%2C then you should not be with this person. It would be an incompatabilty issue too huge to overcome. 149|2|I agree.|LibMod||13:33:53|11/27/2001|This man is interested only in making babies%2C not supporting them. He seems to have quite a knack for getting women to party naked with him %28does he have the full set of Dave Matthews CD%27s or what%3F%29 but no stomach for the consequences. %0D%0A%0D%0AI say make this man get job enough to pay for all these kids%2C or make him get a vasectomy. That way%2C he can screw all he wants without putting his latest conquest through a pregnancy thinking she%27s got this guy to help her take care of this baby%2C only to see him bolt.%0D%0A%0D%0AThis man is a jerk and a scumbag%2C no better than a philandering Republican politician. And liberalism is not about ensuring the right to be an asshole like he is.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22You can be right-wing%2C or you can be right. You can%27t be BOTH at the SAME time.%22%5B%2Ffont%5D 2|1|I%27m having a hard time getting pissed also..|absynthe||18:44:44|11/23/2001|I had my son unintentionaly when I wasn%27t in a position to financially raise a child. I vasectomized myself to make damn sure I didn%27t do that again. I%27ve got sperm frozen for the day that I am financially secure enough to secure in utero fertilization. If I%27m not there yet%2C I%27m not in the running to make more babies. I know that was my voluntary choice and that is probably ethically wrong to force that on someone else%2C but I%27m still having a hard time getting mad about it.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That%2C in its essence%2C is Fascism %97 ownership of government by an individual%2C by a group or by any controlling private power.%22%0D%0A-FDR %0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 9|2|Easy|lazarus||19:22:51|11/23/2001|Because you %5Bi%5Dchose%5B%2Fi%5D to do it. How would you have felt if the government had told you to do it%3F See the difference%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AFor what it%27s worth%2C I think this guy is scum. But that doesn%27t diminish what%27s happened here.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 10|3|I understand why...|absynthe||19:29:30|11/23/2001|I%27m just being honest. I know that is wrong. I%27m just trying to spell out how I can%27t manage to get really angry about it. Put a reproductive rights for men proposition out there and I would vote for it %28with some real distaste%29 but I just don%27t have a gut level sense of outrage. %0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m not saying that is right or fair or even consistent within my own belief system. I%27m just saying that it is a tough sell. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That%2C in its essence%2C is Fascism %97 ownership of government by an individual%2C by a group or by any controlling private power.%22%0D%0A-FDR %0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 11|4|indeed|lazarus||19:33:20|11/23/2001|That%27s why I brought it up. It%27s easy to get worked up over a woman%27s right to choose%2C but a man%27s%3F That%27s putting our beliefs to the test%2C eh%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 3|1|As disgusting|loyalsister||18:48:34|11/23/2001|as this man is%2C I am horrified at the idea of any person being forbidden to reproduce. That slope is far too slippery for us to even begin to approach. Our optional bodily activities need to remain so or we%27re in trouble. 7|2|Thank you|lazarus||19:16:53|11/23/2001|You get it.%0D%0A%0D%0AFor everybody having a hard time with this%2C remember that part of the challenge of respecting rights is respecting the rights of those we don%27t like.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 150|3|This isn%27t a case of %22respecting the right of those we don%27t like.%22|LibMod||13:36:51|11/27/2001|%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22You can be right-wing%2C or you can be right. You can%27t be BOTH at the SAME time.%22%5B%2Ffont%5D 151|4|Why not%3F|lazarus||14:34:00|11/27/2001|Are you saying that reproduction is %5Bi%5Dnot%5B%2Fi%5D a right%3F Or is it just a right for those we approve of%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 152|5|Every %22right%22 has a responsibility attached to it%2C Lazarus.|LibMod||14:41:43|11/27/2001|And if you%27re not up to honoring the responsibility%2C you don%27t deserve the right. You don%27t have the right to vote in some areas of this country unless you stand up and demand it. Standing up and demanding it is honoring the responsibility here. With reproduction%2C honoring the responsibility means financially supporting the beings you put on this earth%2C and better yet%2C staying there and raising that being%2C too.%0D%0A%0D%0AI hope that clears it up for you.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22You can be right-wing%2C or you can be right. You can%27t be BOTH at the SAME time.%22%5B%2Ffont%5D 155|6|Yes%2C it does|lazarus||14:50:31|11/27/2001|That%27s the exact same argument used to support bans on abortion. I%27ve heard it before. Doesn%27t fly here%2C either.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 157|7|You%27re obscuring the argument.|LibMod||15:01:39|11/27/2001|Bans on abortions are telling a woman %22You%27re going to have that baby%2C whether you like it or not%2C want it or not.%22 That%27s a big difference from what we%27re talking about.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22You can be right-wing%2C or you can be right. You can%27t be BOTH at the SAME time.%22%5B%2Ffont%5D 161|8|Not obscure at all|lazarus||19:08:11|11/27/2001|%5Bi%5DBans on abortions are telling a woman %22You%27re going to have that baby%2C whether you like it or not%2C want it or not.%22 That%27s a big difference from what we%27re talking about.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AYup%2C big difference. One involves a woman%2C one involves a man. Both involve reproductive rights. Amazing how the sex of the person makes a difference%2C isn%27t it%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 88|2|I agree|alarimer||13:55:23|11/24/2001|Even though this man obviously has no sense of personal responsibility%2C I do believe the court decision is wrong. If he was a woman and the judge ordered her not to have any more kids%2C there would be a lot of outrage. Did the court say how this was to be accomplished- through sterilization%3F or did they not specify%3F 4|1|Can%27t find any outrage here laz|Terwilliger||18:53:48|11/23/2001|Yes%2C they%27re interfering. But this guy is a misanthrope who plants his seed and moves on. I %28like most everyone%29 would think that having ONE child is a huge responsibility with equally huge consequences. This guy seems to want the nookie%2C not use a condom%2C and then not give a shit about the human beings he%27s creating. I think this IS one good thing about government.%0D%0A%0D%0ANow if we could just get the establishment to ban reproduction of corporate tax breaks%2C we%27d be good. 5|2|It%27s Good To See That The Courts Are Finally Cracking Down On.|Dick Tater||19:12:06|11/23/2001|Newt Gingrich.%0D%0A%0D%0A%28also works with J.C. Watts%2C John Fund%2C Bob Barr%2C Dan Burton%2C etc.%29 158|3|LMAO%21|LibMod||15:02:43|11/27/2001|ROTFLMAO%21%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22You can be right-wing%2C or you can be right. You can%27t be BOTH at the SAME time.%22%5B%2Ffont%5D 8|2|responsibility|lazarus||19:19:21|11/23/2001|%5Bi%5DI think this IS one good thing about government.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AYes%2C this guy%27s a bastard. That%27s the point. We%27re all running around screaming about our rights being taken%2C but when a clearly unconstitution act is supported by a state Supreme Court%2C we don%27t mind because he%27s a jerk. %3Awtf%3A%0D%0A%0D%0APart of the responsibility of being a liberal is respecting the rights of those we don%27t like. The ACLU has defended the right to free speech for the Klan. Surely we can do the same%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd don%27t the women bear some responsibility here%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 14|3|Yes. I know. But...|MarkTwain||20:15:45|11/23/2001|The consequence of his %22right%22 to procreation %28although apparently%2C in his case%2C it%27s actually the right to screw%29 is%3A%0D%0A%0D%0AA Child%21%0D%0A%0D%0ARights - inherently and concurrently - are tied to responsibility. Within this context%2C I have no problem respecting and supporting rights. However%2C your argument very simply misses the element of responsibility. Especially to the child.%0D%0A%0D%0AThat%2C indeed%2C is what the reproductive rights of a woman are all about. If that woman%2C for her own personal reason or issue - be it one of responsiblity%2C financial or otherwise%2C does not wish to bear a child%2C this country now allows her to act upon that decision. And yes%2C the woman in this matter have equal culpability and will%2C most likely%2C be dealing with it for decades to come irrespective of whether they have custody of those children or not. Being a mother is a far more personal and emotional issue than being a sperm donor.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe right to free speech is not applicable nor particularly germane to the act of sex or of procreation. %0D%0A%0D%0AHowever%2C the rights to drive an automobile or use liquor are far more appropriate comparisons and are intricately and statutorily bundled with the responsiblity to do so without causing harm to others or violating appropriate rules of conduct and use%2C i.e.%2C you don%27t cross a double yellow line%2C you don%27t drink and drive.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe resulting children of these irresponsible actions are being harmed and injured to extents far beyond society%27s capability for repair - irrespective of any amount of money which that society does or does not have%2C wishes or wishes not%2C or throws or does not throw in an attempt to help the child.%0D%0A%0D%0AFrankly%2C I%27ve always thought that what we do to children as a result of this %22right to procreate%2C%22 is contemptible. %0D%0A%0D%0AWe license drivers. The state and society have far more compelling interests in the education%2C training%2C and guidance of parents whose damage to children equals the annual carnage on our roads every single hour of the day - emotionally%2C physically%2C and financially. %0D%0A%0D%0AThat%2C plain and simple%2C is why many of us find it difficult to get worked up over this cretin and his behaviour.%0D%0A%0D%0A______________________________________________________%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DIn an Early Report Card on the Bush pResidency%3A BioTerrorism Spreads Domestically With Four Dead%3B Workers%27 Medical Concerns Trashed - While pResident Weekends At Camp David%2C His Government Provides Only Chaos. Republican Cowards%2C Following Their pResident%2C Hide While Rewarding Corporate Masters With Massive Tax Cuts. During Bush Recession%2C Consumer Confidence Crumbles As Clinton Budget Surpluses Become Reagan Deficits With Record 5.4%25 Unemployment. March Terrorism Report on Cheney%27s Desk While Finance And Government EpiCenters Laid Waste. pResident Gives %2443M And Promises %93Second Chance%94 to bin-Laden Financed Taliban Thugs Implicated In Murder Of Five Thousand Americans. Senate Control Handed to His Opposition. Faith Based Sham in Shambles. Stem Cell Theories Proved Fraud. Just Ten Months%3A The Shape Of Things To Come%3F %0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 17|4|You%27ve just|lazarus||20:20:14|11/23/2001|You%27ve just made procreation a privilege%2C not a right. So%2C who gets to determine if you%27re allowed to bear a child%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AMaybe you%27re not white enough%3F Or rich enough%3F Or the right religion%3F Do you start to see the implications of this position%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 20|5|Last Time I Visited...|MarkTwain||20:34:46|11/23/2001|The Department of Driver%27s Licenses%3A%0D%0A%0D%0AI saw black people%2C brown people%2C and yellow people. And%2C I saw people in Blue Jeans%2C Dockers%2C and Armani. I saw people wearing Timex and Rolex. And%2C I heard people speaking Spanish%2C Creole%2C and English. I saw a guy and his girlfried. And%2C I even saw another guy and his boyfriend.%0D%0A%0D%0AAlmost each and every time I pick up a newspaper%3A%0D%0A%0D%0AI see stories of child neglect and of savage cruelty to those chidren. And%2C stories of abject disregard of those children secondary to what is obviously ignorance.%0D%0A%0D%0AThese are not implications. These are real life%2C profane%2C and disgusting realities.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhy do we not only allow the state to become involved - but%2C force that state%27s intervention - after the beaten%2C bruised%2C scarred%2C and abused child presents in an emeregency room or in a welfare office%2C but not before the sperm meets the egg%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A____________________________________________________%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DIn an Early Report Card on the Bush pResidency%3A BioTerrorism Spreads Domestically With Four Dead%3B Workers%27 Medical Concerns Trashed - While pResident Weekends At Camp David%2C His Government Provides Only Chaos. Republican Cowards%2C Following Their pResident%2C Hide While Rewarding Corporate Masters With Massive Tax Cuts. During Bush Recession%2C Consumer Confidence Crumbles As Clinton Budget Surpluses Become Reagan Deficits With Record 5.4%25 Unemployment. March Terrorism Report on Cheney%27s Desk While Finance And Government EpiCenters Laid Waste. pResident Gives %2443M And Promises %93Second Chance%94 to bin-Laden Financed Taliban Thugs Implicated In Murder Of Five Thousand Americans. Senate Control Handed to His Opposition. Faith Based Sham in Shambles. Stem Cell Theories Proved Fraud. Just Ten Months%3A The Shape Of Things To Come%3F %0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 22|6|Because|lazarus||20:40:40|11/23/2001|Then we invite the possibility of selected reproduction. Yes%2C all races%2C etc.%2C can get a driver%27s license. But is that any reason to allow the government to regulate our families%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AThat%27s beyond the pale. Nobody is allowed to tell me if I can have a child or not. Nobody.%0D%0A%0D%0AOr else we toss out Roe v Wade%2C too.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 28|7|You used the term....|MarkTwain||20:51:22|11/23/2001|Privlege. In an obvious reference to the right to drive.%0D%0A%0D%0AI demonstrated that the state can effectively%2C without evidence of discrimination or %22selection%2C%22 administer a program of privileges.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd%2C just where in my posts have I argued for the state to have the right to determine the procreative direction of an individual%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AI never said I supported what this court did. I merely am pointing to some very severe errors and salient omissions in your logic%2C your argument%2C your illustrations%2C and your comparisons. %0D%0A%0D%0AAlong with pointing to a very significant ignorance in your rant vis-a-vis the issue of responsiblity.%0D%0A%0D%0AThat%27s all.%0D%0A%0D%0A____________________________________________%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DIn an Early Report Card on the Bush pResidency%3A BioTerrorism Spreads Domestically With Four Dead%3B Workers%27 Medical Concerns Trashed - While pResident Weekends At Camp David%2C His Government Provides Only Chaos. Republican Cowards%2C Following Their pResident%2C Hide While Rewarding Corporate Masters With Massive Tax Cuts. During Bush Recession%2C Consumer Confidence Crumbles As Clinton Budget Surpluses Become Reagan Deficits With Record 5.4%25 Unemployment. March Terrorism Report on Cheney%27s Desk While Finance And Government EpiCenters Laid Waste. pResident Gives %2443M And Promises %93Second Chance%94 to bin-Laden Financed Taliban Thugs Implicated In Murder Of Five Thousand Americans. Senate Control Handed to His Opposition. Faith Based Sham in Shambles. Stem Cell Theories Proved Fraud. Just Ten Months%3A The Shape Of Things To Come%3F %0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 42|8|Responsibility...|haele||00:38:19|11/24/2001|Goes both ways%2C unfortunatly. %0D%0A%0D%0AIf you make it a %22priviledge%22 based on personal responsibility to procreate%2C you must apply it equally. That was the entire point of Laz%27s argument%2C no matter how you wish to look at it.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe courts%2C in this case%2C have made a judgement%2C right or wrong%2C that man%27s right to procreate at will. %0D%0A%0D%0AHave they equally curtailed the rights of the women involved%2C who have also already had several children by him%2C or by him and other men%3F If so%2C no problem. If not...%0D%0A%0D%0AAs for the other issue Laz is concerned about%2C eugenics - that is a very real issue that this case can potentially bring back.%0D%0A%0D%0AWill mentally %22unfit%22 people%2C people who are too poor or too young%2C or single people who are deemed not to be able to responsibly care for a child also give up the right to procreate%3F This %5Bi%5Dhas%5B%2Fi%5D happened as recently as the 1950%27s and 1960%27s%2C along with enforced steralization of the socially unfit.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe whole point of the case is that%2C like it or not%2C the right to determine what to do with one%27s body in a consentual situation - not rape or incest%2C is being arbitrarily determined by the government.%0D%0A%0D%0AQuestion for everyone wanting to punish %5Bi%5Donly%5B%2Fi%5D the father...What would you say about requireing Norplant or tying the tubes of every single mother on WIC or other assistance who has more than two children%3F %0D%0A%0D%0AWhat would you say about requiring all girls in public schools to have Norplant inserted %28or the contraceptive shot%29 as soon as they hit menses%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ATo me%2C there%27s not much more of a difference. %0D%0AAnd tell you the truth%2C I%27d %5Bi%5Dalmost %5B%2Fi%5D be behind such requirements.%0D%0A%0D%0AHaele%0D%0A 46|9|the difference here is|dsc||00:48:03|11/24/2001|that the man was found to be a criminal. If the women on welfare that you mention had done something criminal then frankly I probably would. This man could have avoided the infringement of his right to procreate by either not falling behind in his child support so far as to be a criminal or failing that by serving the entire sentence of 8 years. After all people can get longer than 8 years for one act of consenual sodomy in some southern states. 55|10|Criminal%3F|lazarus||01:08:53|11/24/2001|You%27re getting circular. It%27s okay that he can%27t reproduce because he%27s a criminal%2C and he%27s a criminal because he reproduces.%0D%0A%0D%0AAgain%2C under what circumstance would you accept the government%27s intervening in a woman%27s right to choose%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 57|10|Ah%2C makes it easy%2C right%3F|haele||01:16:35|11/24/2001|Found to be a criminal because even though he was trying to pay child support %2870 percent%2C wasn%27t it%3F%29 and yet%2C the last couple women who knowingly had three or four kids%2C even as they knew he was having problems paying them for the support%2C continued on having them%2C instead of seeking birth control%3F %0D%0A%0D%0AThe women who just as knowingly defrauded the welfare system%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AThe first woman%2C or the first two women%2C I could see. But since it was obvious after the sixth child that there was beginning to be a problem%2C the women who were naming him as the father should have been advised to start taking birth control or start facing consequences%3B either they get put on manditory birth control - or go to jail for intentially defrauding the system. Isn%27t that what the father is facing%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AAs I said%2C it%27s harsh. But that%27s when the logic that the attitude that the man who _is_ attempting to pay%2C but can%27t is a criminal and the women who knowingly continue to have children with him aren%27t becomes hypocracy.%0D%0A%0D%0AIf you are going to make people responsible for the choices they make with their bodies%2C you must be consistant. Anything else would be prejudical to equal rights for everyone. Especially since in many cases of multiple children amongst the disadvantaged%2C you are dealing with a cultural phenomena.%0D%0AMelvin Harris%2C a noted anthropologist%2C noted that poor%2C basically single women living in projects tend to want several sons to protect themselves from the preditory instincts of young%2C unstable%2C underemployed males who have embraced a short term prize-based culture rather than a long term family-based culture%2C and will tend to breed until they bear enough to feel safe.%0D%0A%0D%0AThose same young males tend to count their manhood by how many children they can father. It seems to be interrelated. So...you have to break the cycle. Sending a potential father who is attempting to care for his offspring to prison will not solve the problem. %0D%0ATeaching the potential father to be a father%2C and teaching the potential mothers that they don%27t have have children to as their only protection and self worth is what will break the cycle.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd bringing up prison sentancing for consentual sodomy in some states is rather like grasping at straws%2C is it not%3F After all%2C until fairly recent years%2C teens who could not pass a certain IQ or were seriously handicapped at birth were sterilized so they couldn%27t breed in some states. Is that fair and just%3F It was legal%2C after all...%0D%0A%0D%0AJust a few things to think about here.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ABTW%2C I%27ve known two fathers who were taken to court %5Bi%5Dagainst%5B%2Fi%5D the mother%27s wishes for child support %28the mothers and children were living with them%2C but were on WIC because they weren%27t making enough...%29 and had wages garnished%2C causing terrible hardship to the families because of the criminalization of %22single%22 deadbeat dads...%0D%0A%0D%0AHaele 61|11|there is a difference between|dsc||01:38:01|11/24/2001|civil and criminal court. The cases you mention at the bottom of your post are civil. A criminal case requires proof beyond a resonable doubt. I will not say that I know for sure that the guy is lying but I have literally never heard of someone actually sent to a criminal term in jail as opposed to contempt where a person gets out when he pays. I literally can not imagine that this guy got sent to jail if he paid his support. %0D%0A%0D%0AYou ask what efforts I would support for women. You can read my other post but frankly if a woman were this irresponsible then heck yea bring it on. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe sodomy laws are directly on point. For one act of sodomy I can go to jail for longer than this guy would for at least 10 acts of bringing children into the world and not paying to support them. The original 9 plus the at least one it would take to violate probation. This man is not being sterilized. He can have sex until the cows come home. He simply has to do one of three things. He can make sure the woman does not get pregnant. He can make sure he stays current on support. He can marry the woman. Incidently%2C in the sodomy senario I do not get the choice. I just go to jail. %0D%0A%0D%0AI choose not to dignify that crap about women in the projects and manhood with a response. 73|12|Oh%2C my...|haele||02:52:20|11/24/2001|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Nov-24-01 AT 03:02 AM (ET)[/font][p]%5Bfont size%3D%221%22 color%3D%22%23FF0000%22%5DLAST EDITED ON Nov-24-01 AT 02%3A59%A0AM %28ET%29%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd you teach inner city schools%3F Have you actually try to observe what causes this sort of thing to go on%3F%0D%0AI%27ve been poor enough to have had to live innercity neighborhoods %28Compton%2C Barrio Logan%29 and have%2C with a Navy program%2C tutored innercity kids before. My father still teaches highschool in a %22depressed%22 district with high unemployment. He sees the same thing. Girls want kids for the future they represent and the protection%2C monitarely from the state and physically from the father%28hopefully%29%2C and boys%2Fyoung men have sex to prove their manhood.%0D%0AI%27ve heard more than one teen mother say the equivilient of %22I love my girl%2C but I need a boy to take care of me when he grows up.%22 %0D%0AI%27ve seen more than enough of them who are looking for importance and value in their lives. How do you stop the cycle%2C friend%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AAs for your other bit%2C I don%27t doubt in the least that a father who is behind will go to jail. Heard of it happening and saw it almost happen. %0D%0AOne of the examples I brought up at the bottom of the my last post was almost arrested when he was working out of state and didn%27t know CPS had scheduled a hearing for him. His girlfriend%2C living with him%2C thought that it was okay if just she showed up and never told him about it. Lucky for him%2C our company has legal benefits%2C and he was able to get a second hearing before they arrested him. But it still cost him. CPS garnished his wages for the payments and administrative fines for three whole months%2C causing a one month lag in the salery he recieved%2C as they were auditing it and sending it to his girlfriend.%0D%0AHe never got the money back. Nor could he afford to sue them.%0D%0A%0D%0AExamples of laws granting arrest warrents for child support...%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.mcso.org%2Fsubmenu.asp%3Ffile%3Dmostwanted%26page%3Dcivil1%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Funix1.aismedia.com%2Fpipermail%2Fancpr-newsletter%2F2001-August%2F000004.html%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.judiciary.state.nj.us%2Fprobchild%2Fprob02.htm%0D%0A%0D%0AThis one is the scary one%3B the feds have a program that allows for %22purchase of service agreements%22 for local and state agencies that are dedicated to child support claim collections to make arrests and get federal funding for it. Note the term %22dedicated%22. Not your local police agency that handles other crimes%2C a specific division set up for this...%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.acf.dhhs.gov%2Fprograms%2Fcse%2Fpol%2Fat-7903.htm%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ASo%2C a non-custodial father who works out of state%2C gets on the wrong side of CPS%2C or loses his job and complains to the judge about adjusting the payment schedule%2C still deserves to go to jail%3F%0D%0AIn each of these%2C the non-custodial parent does not have to refuse to make payments%2C just be behind%2C or not make the hearing to spend up to 180 days in jail. If you don%27t have a good lawyer%2C you%27re screwed. Not only were you out what you were behind previously%2C you are 6 months in arrears.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ALook%2C I%27m not saying the man this thread is concerned with may not be a punk - he probably is%3B I%27m saying that the laws concerning child support are politically skewed to portray a %22good-girl%22 victim and a %22bad-guy%22 offender%2C placing most%2C if not all%2C the responsiblity on the %22badguy%22. %0D%0A%0D%0AAnd the cycle will just keep going on...unless both parties are finally forced to take responsibilty from the onset.%0D%0A%0D%0AJust be consistant%2C and for heaven%27s sakes%2C stop making those who have also made choices a victim to be exempt from responsibility...%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd if you condone legislating the consentual use an adult can have of his or her body%2C instead of fighting it - what does that say about claiming to support choice%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AOne could just as easily say that any irresponsible woman who becomes pregnant must have an abortion. If a man must be %22responsible%22 or give up his right for procreation%2C that means a woman should%2C too.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd so%2C we%27re back to the original premis of the thread.%0D%0A%0D%0AHaele%0D%0A%0D%0A 80|13|a few points|dsc||03:13:07|11/24/2001|I never said that people don%27t go to jail for non payment. What I did say and stand behind is that they do not go to jail for a set period of time for non payment. Every case I have heard of has been a case where you go to jail until you decide to pay. This case he was convicted of a crime which means he was found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. There is a huge difference. Contempt powers while vast are limited in scope. There is no such thing as probationary conditions on contempt. You either go to jail or do what the judge says. This guy had to go many steps beyond what a usual deadbeat dad does.%0D%0A%0D%0AI never said I was pro choice.%0D%0A%0D%0AAs to the other stuff. My point is that while more common than in other schools it is still a minority of girls who get pregnant. The idea that they are all doing this or all doing that is crap. Also I really don%27t believe this stuff about wanting boys to protect them. The female students I have had consider themselves quite capable thank you anyway. 127|9|haele|Maine Mary||08:00:03|11/25/2001|Why are you making public assistance the issue here%3F This case is about child support and not public assistance. I saw nothing in the article that suggests the mothers of these children are on any form of public asssitance.%0D%0A%0D%0ATherefore your statement%2C%0D%0A%22Have they equally curtailed the rights of the women involved%2C who have also already had several children by him%2C or by him and other men%3F If so%2C no problem. If not...%22%0D%0A-Is moot.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhy should the court curtail the mother%27s %28in this case%29reproduction%3F They ARE taking responsibility for their children. The father of their children is not. 133|10|Mary...|haele||22:01:41|11/25/2001|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Nov-26-01 AT 01:04 AM (ET)[/font][p]%5Bfont size%3D%221%22 color%3D%22%23FF0000%22%5DLAST EDITED ON Nov-25-01 AT 10%3A08%A0PM %28ET%29%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ll admit to be somewhat biased to a conjecture that some of these women in this case were on some sort of public support because in this case where for some reason%2C this man got several different women in the same area pregnant with two to four children. %0D%0A%0D%0AI could very well be wrong%3B this could be a matter of CPS overstepping it%27s bounds%2C and fining a guy who has made 70 percent of the payments for all the children%2C still tries to make payments%2C had a spot of bad luck and ended up in jail%2C and most of the mothers are making up the rest and otherwise have no problem with him being somewhat behind.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ll also admit I%27m a bit stridant of %22punish him without punishing her%22 because I%27ve seen the %22sterotype welfare queen%22 sort of thing happen more than once.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s extrememly discouraging to know even as there are more families that need public assistance desperatly because of sheer bad luck and the majority of them %5Bb%5Dwill%5B%2Fb%5D be off public assistance within 10 years%2C there are women - like the woman across the street and a former aquaintance - who are using assistance to %22their advantage%22%2C who believe %28foolishly%2C because as Cappurr points out%2C unless they or the father is in the military%2C it%27s not profitable long term in the least to them%29 that they%27re entitled simply because they have children. %0D%0AThese women have housing supplemental vouchers%2C food supplementals vouchers%2C a small stipend from the state%2C child support of %24200 to %24400 a month for each child %28plus the ability to request more for special needs%29%2C free health and dental care%2C freedom with their friends%2C and kids who love them unconditionally.%0D%0AAnd they don%27t seem to want to do anything in particular beyond that as long as they%2C the women%2C %28not necissarily the children%29 are comfortable. %0D%0A%0D%0AIt drives me crazy%2C because everyone around them%2C everyone who%27s interested in the welfare of their children%2C have to work twice as hard to get those kids through some form of responsible adulthood. We volunteer%2C we listen%2C we tutor%2C we supply extra clothing and toys%2C we invite them over to stable households because %22mom doesn%27t have time%22 and try to teach these kids that they don%27t have to live like they%27re some sort of commodity...%0D%0A%0D%0AMost women aren%27t like that. But some%2C these women... arrrgggh. Make it easier for the so called conservitive Republicans to smack the poorer folk around. One bad case - like this one - ruins it for the ten other successful cases.%0D%0A%0D%0ABack to the original thread...%28if you want to continue %22public assistance and myths thereof%2C let%27s take this on to General Discussions...%29 %0D%0A%0D%0ALet%27s consider the situation again to consider the validity of bringing public assistance into this issue%3A %0D%0A%0D%0AIf you are a man and are ordered not to reproduce because you can%27t pay child support for %5Bi%5Dthe children you have%5B%2Fi%5D what is the difference if you are a woman and are on public assistance for %5Bi%5Dthe children you have%5B%2Fi%5D%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AFor this final point%2C and this one only%2C I%27ll apologize and say I erred in the assumption that these four mothers were on public assistance%2C and perhaps carry some part of the %22social irresponsiblity%22 that brought about this ruling against the father. %0D%0AAfter all%2C if they were required to be %22responsible parents%22 and perhaps not to have any further children if they were on public assistance because they couldn%27t support any more on their own%2C how would he have ended up with any more than perhaps 4 or 5 children to pay child support for%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AMary...a lot of what I%27m saying is a rant against those who take advantage of the system%2C as well a system that more often than not condones %28and profits from%29 a lack of responsibility%2C a form of victimization due to gender in a lot of cases - rather than recognizing that it%27s safety net there for those who fall through the cracks and need a stable base to continue on from.%0D%0A%0D%0AHaele 136|11|I admire your ability|Maine Mary||07:25:16|11/26/2001|to objectively evaluate and re-evaluate different points of view. If I had my doubts that you are a liberal from any of your prior posts%2C I don%27t anymore.%0D%0A%0D%0AAs a liberal%2C you obviously understand that everything is not always black and white%2C that on any given subject%28s%29%2C there are often shades of grey. I think this is one of those subjects...Which is why I wouldn%27t want to see a court decision such as this one in every case%2C but feel it%27s appropriate in this or a similiar such case. Though we already know courts are failible %28boy do we know that%21%29 I still have enough faith in them to make sound judgements on a case by case basis on this and most other issues. I still maintain they did the right thing in this case.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut to get to your Public Assistance point%28s%29 I%27d first like to say that I%27m very familiar with the subject. I served on my state%27s 1996 study commission which looked at the possible economic impact of time limited AFDC %28now called TANF%29 Furthermore%2C on a more personal note%2C I recieved AFDC myself %28for 8 months%29 as a young mother of 1 child back in the late 80%27s. %28My husband had abandonded us%29.%0D%0A%0D%0AYou are right. There are alot of myths about Public Assistance. I recently finished a book called %22The Undeserving Poor%22 by Michael Katz. In it%2C he talks about how society readily demonizes sub sets who are much weaker politically%2C basically and simply because%2C they can. There are many Public Assistnace programs yet no other recipients of them recieve the same kind of scrutiny and public distain as %22welfare moms.%22 For example%2C SS recipients who have the powerful AARP in their pocket are never challenged about the fact that after 4 years of SS benefits they%2C in most cases%2C have exhausted the amount of money they put into the system and are living off the public dole. Nor is there the same kind of public scrutiny for Corporate Welfare or Medicare for the elderly ect. It is in this climate that myths about welfare moms abound.%0D%0A%0D%0AWelfare moms are easy targets. They are not politically organized and in many cases are not educated and%2For articulate enough to defend themselves. Furthermore%2C they are too busy with just the business of mere survival to get involved in political endeavors. %0D%0A%0D%0AYou are right...only a small %23 of welfare women fit the sterotypical %22welfare queen%22 mold that people%2C especially conservatives like to promegate. You know%2C the ones that continually have more children and live most of their lives on welfare. In fact%2C during the 96 study%2C we had statistical evidence that that type of welfare recipient occurred in less then 9 percent of welfare cases. In 65 percent of the cases%2C recipients were off welfare within 1 year%2C and in another 20 percent%2C 2 years.... The point of all this is the fact that it became obvious to me that even BEFORE time limits%2C most welfare recipients moved away from welfare on their own. Even I was surprised by that since I had erronously beleived my own 8 months was unusual%2C thanks to all the myths.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut lets talk about the less then 9 percent that many people THINK is the norm. Our study showed that within that 9 percent group%2C there were some very good reasons why they didn%27t move on. Many were simply unemployable unless they got some serious help. Help beyond what the average recipient needed. IQ%27s in this sub group tended to be lower as did the education level. Many were being treated for mental illnesses and had come from a culture of public assistance. Even with serious help%2C some would never be employable so it became clear that with impending time limits%2C alternate forms of public assistance would have to be found for them such as SS disablity ect. FINALLY%2C out of the 9 percent%2C we come to the ones most people think of when they think of welfare queens....A SMALL%2C very small percentage of the 9 percent are con artists...They don%27t seem to have the typical problems of this sub group%2C ie low intelligence%2C very poor education%2C ect. They just milk the system for what they can get.%0D%0A%0D%0AI could go on and on but my point is that these welfare queens are a very small percentage of the population and have mostly been eradicated by time limits. Some of them have probably found other ways to milk the system but if they are doing so%2C they%27re doing it illegally.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ve gotten WAY of the subject%2C since as I said%2C CS and public assistance are 2 very different things%2C but I felt it important to make these points. 62|6|I%27m afraid|FireHeart||01:38:11|11/24/2001|that just makes too much good sense. Some people don%27t like the idea of not being able to pop out a kid on a whim. Doesn%27t matter what happens to the child%2C as long as the man %28I noticed some lame comparison to a woman--it%27s not the same thing at all%29 can get his rocks off and move on. There%27s really no moral dilemna about it. IF he fully supported every child he brought into the world and the mothers of his children%2C there%27d be no issue at all. That comparison was silly--a woman can%27t impregnate herself%2C decide it%27s time to move on to create another life WITHOUT bearing the consequences. The man can.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s rather simple.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A 65|7|It is simple|lazarus||01:53:10|11/24/2001|Under what conditions would you support the government%27s interfering in a woman%27s right to have a child%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AThat%27s what%27s happening here.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 87|5|Got to disagree here|jcgadfly||13:36:16|11/24/2001|%22You%27ve just made procreation a privilege%2C not a right.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AProcreation is a privilege because it%27s a choice%2C just as sex is. If a person doesn%27t want to have sex%2C they don%27t. If they want to avoid%2Freduce the risk of making a baby%2C contraceptives and prophylactics are easily %28and in some cases freely%29 available. When a person makes that choice%2C they have to be willing to take resposibility fo that choice.%0D%0A%0D%0AI agree that the court%27s position is wrong unless it%27s applied even-handedly. Unfotunately%2C the only way to do that is to codify it and take it out of the court%27s discretion. That move will lead to the selective reproduction you fear. IMO%2C education %28sex ed%2C parenting%2C job training%29 is the only solution%2C not forced abstinence %28court solution%29 or doing nothing %28your solution%29%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat do you suggest%3F Your current plan %28do nothing%29 has proven ineffective. 90|6|my current plan%3F|lazarus||15:22:30|11/24/2001|%22do nothing%22 is the state%27s current plan. It involves vilifying fathers%2C etc.%2C as well.%0D%0A%0D%0ANow%2C this particular case is the hard one. I agree this guy has no business doing what he%27s doing%2C but the state has no business getting involved. This is one of those things where we hate what happens%2C but have to let it happen and work to make a societal change.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 148|7|Your plan.|jcgadfly||13:14:39|11/27/2001|%22%22do nothing%22 is the state%27s current plan.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AThe state is the one that has imposed the ban%2C along with fines%2Fimprisonment for breaking the ban. That%27s hardly doing nothing. Your idea %28doing nothing%29 allows the man to make babies and make tracks because he has the %22right%22 to reproduce.%0D%0A%0D%0AI couldn%27t find the story via the link or searching the archives. Did the state bring the first suit or the spouse%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AI agree that judgments like this should be applied even-handedly or%2C failing actual legislation%2C not at all. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe reasons I believe this made the news are%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%281%29 Trial balloon - no case like it in Wisconsin.%0D%0A%282%29 The national problem of %22deadbeat dads%22.%0D%0A%283%29 The state brought the suit. Many courts don%27t have provisions for spouses suing each other except in divorce.%0D%0A%0D%0AI may be wrong. Please enlighten me if I am. 153|8|Plans|lazarus||14:44:05|11/27/2001|The plan I was discussing was about the totality of the problem%2C not this particular case.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe state brought the original complaint%2C as is normal in most of these situations.%0D%0A%0D%0AAs to the problem if %22deadbeat dads%22%2C the phrase itself is a problem. First%2C it%27s grossly inflated. The vast majority of non-custodial fathers pay their support.%0D%0ASecond%2C the percentage of women who don%27t pay ordered support is twice that of men who don%27t pay. But we don%27t hear about deadbeat moms. Probably two reasons for that. First%2C there aren%27t as many%2C numerically %28which is a problem in itself%29. Second%2C it%27s not a nifty alliterative soundbite.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 159|9|Thanks for the information|jcgadfly||15:45:20|11/27/2001|I%27ve enjoyed this discussion. It%27s nice to have a place to do this %28at least for the time being%29. I meant nothing personal in any of this. I%27ve got an ex who%27s not paying support to my wife so it gets under my skin when someone advocates the abolition of personal responsibility in the name of an alleged physiological right.%0D%0A%0D%0AThanks again for the discussion. 160|10|%22Thanks for the information%22|jcgadfly||15:47:24|11/27/2001|Correction%3A It%27s her ex. Just wanted to get that straight 36|4|Bravo MarkTwain%2C and bravo again|FreeBilly||21:34:03|11/23/2001|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Nov-23-01 AT 09:35 PM (ET)[/font][p]I have chills down my spine. That was so well put...%0D%0A%0D%0AI would only add%2C on a separate level%2C about the issue of choice%2C that men%27s choices are exercised very differently than women%27s choices. Quite obviously%2C women carry the child inside us%2C which makes the choices rather more real%2C physical%2C and present%3B men on the other hand%2C have opportunities to step away at several points up to%2C and including%2C after the birth of the baby. Women simply do not have this choice of just walking away. This individual%27s behaviour seems to me parallel to that of a mother who gives birth%2C and leaves the newborn in a trash can%3A CLEARLY criminal behaviour. 44|5|Then the solution|lazarus||00:46:19|11/24/2001|For you is to ban women who mistreat their children from having more children%2C right%3F %0D%0A%0D%0ABy the way%2C women can walk away. It%27s called adoption. Men can%27t. It%27s called child support. Whether we %5Bi%5Dchoose%5B%2Fi%5D or not.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 51|6|Men and women have equal rights to give a child up for adoption...|Cappurr||00:58:35|11/24/2001|The difference is%2C of course%2C you can%27t tell which man the child came from so it is easier for a woman to give a child up after birth. But today%2C most states require the signature of the natural father. And with some of the horrible results of adoption where fathers have NOT been legally consulted%2C it won%27t be long before DNA is required. Frankly%2C as a lawyer I would suggest it to my clients who wanted to adopt privately.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Fcat3.gif http%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Ftiere%2Fcatmilk.gif Cats rule%3B Republicans drool%5B%2Ffont%5D 53|7|what a good idea|dsc||01:04:49|11/24/2001|It is appalling that it has come to that but DNA tests preceding especially private adoptions is an excellent idea. It just sickens me to see some of these cases where after some number of years a kid is ripped from the only family s%2Fhe knows because some guy who sired the child comes out of the woodwork. Great idea you have though. 56|7|But|lazarus||01:10:49|11/24/2001|The man can%27t choose to abort the child%2C nor can he choose to walk away from it if the woman doesn%27t want to.%0D%0A%0D%0AHow about a paper abortion%2C as it were%3F The man gives up all rights to%2C and responsibility for%2C the child.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 76|8|Laz%2C my friend....|Cappurr||03:04:42|11/24/2001|I know how hard it is to discuss issues when one is personally involved. But you are an intelligent and fair person. The rights were are really talking about here are the rights of a child to be supported by BOTH parents. You can%27t have a %22paper%22 adoption unless there is another adoptive parent willing to take the place of the parent willing to give up his or her child. While there are adoption agencies that will facilitate adoptions as well as private adoptions and stepparent adoptions %28when one natural parent gives up his or her rights to the child to the husband or wife of the other natural parent%29%2C in all of these cases the child is protected. The child doesn%27t lose one parents support without gaining another%2C willing parent to support him%2Fher and give him%2Fher inherentence rights and a host of other legal rights every child is entitled to at birth. If we permitted every deadbeat parent to merely walk away from his or her child we would not only be cheating the child%2C we would be cheating society who may have to help support that child.%0D%0A%0D%0AI know it doesn%27t seem fair that a woman can become pregnant and insist on having the child and the father must pay support even if he would prefer an abortion. But it isn%27t the rights of the parent that are paramount here -- it is the rights of the child. Believe%2C child support payments %28unless you are talking about the super rich%29 do NOT cover the real costs of raising a child. The payor spouse always THINKS the payee spouse is somehow living on %22His%22 child support payment%2C but that is just not the case. One of the funniest expeiences I have had with child support was a father who was paying %2475 a week for child support %28this was in the early 90s%29. He wanted custody of this child %28a daughter%29 and his wife was a real bitch. Horrible%2C long drawn out case. For more than a year%2C this guy bitched about the child support%2C making remarks like %22what is she feeding this child -- gold hot dogs%22 and other frustrated comments. %0D%0A%0D%0Awell%2C I got custody of the child for him%2C finally. And the wife had to pay him 69 dollar a week. Within a month%2C this guy was bitching that it wasn%27t enough%2C how was he going to pay for everything with just 69 dollars a week. %286 dollars less than he was paying her.%29 The moral is where you sit is where you stand.%0D%0A%0D%0AIn NJ%2C we have what are know as the %22Child Support Guidlines%22. It is based on studies of what percentage of total family income is used for a child or children. When the parties separate%2C their incomes are combined%2C you check the chart and see what a family of that income spends on a child%2C take the percentage of the joint income that your income represents%2C and your child support is that percentage amount of the child expenditures on the chart%2C representing what a family of your joint income level spends on that child. %0D%0A%0D%0ANow there are special circumstances that may change the calculation %28for example if the child has special needs%29 but essentially it is pretty cut and dried. And in my opinion%2C pretty fair. No discretion for the judge.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt is the children who are being protected here -- not the wife %28no matter how bitchy she is%29 or the husband %28no matter what a good guy he is%29. The court only cares that the children receive support from both parents because that is their birthright.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Fcat3.gif http%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Ftiere%2Fcatmilk.gif Cats rule%3B Republicans drool%5B%2Ffont%5D 77|9|Well.....|lazarus||03:08:06|11/24/2001|I hate to say it%2C but I%27ve read way too many studies that show that child support is actually damaging to the family. What we need is a system of automatic joint custody. Yes%2C child support is not enough to live on. However%2C it frequently does nothing but drive both parents into poverty. We need to take a long hard look at what%27s being done to our families these days.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 83|10|Well -- I agree with a presumption of joint custody|Cappurr||11:45:40|11/24/2001|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Nov-24-01 AT 11:56 AM (ET)[/font][p]%5Bfont size%3D%221%22 color%3D%22%23FF0000%22%5DLAST EDITED ON Nov-24-01 AT 11%3A48%A0AM %28ET%29%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0ABut not %22automatic%22. I%27m sure you don%27t think unfit parents should have joint custody. However even joint custody does not relieve the financial burden. Let me explain as briefly as I can.%0D%0A%0D%0AFirst there are two kinds of custody -- physical and legal. Joint legal custody is common %28means both parents have legal rights and responsiblilites such as providing consent for medical procedures%2C having access to children%27s school records%2C etc.%29%0D%0A%0D%0AJoint physical custody is far less common. First of all it can only work practically if parents live close together%2C in the same school district. Second there are studies that show%2C particularly with young kids%2C it is extremely diorienting. Living first in one house%2C then in the other. %0D%0A%0D%0AThird%2C it really doesn%27t help financially. BOTH parents have to have homes that have facilities for the kids%2C extra bedrooms%2C toys%2C clothing%2C etc. %0D%0A%0D%0AI was once involved in one intriguing case where the parents actually shared the former marital home. One lived there for a week with the kids%2C then moved to an apartment%2C the other moved out of the same apartment%2C moved into the marital home. The kids never moved at all. Great system IF the parents can get along and be civil to one another. Problem is%2C most divorcing couples couldn%27t get along when they were married -- that is precisely why they are divorcing. How the heck can you expect for them to get along AFTER the divorce. Even for the sake of the children%2C I have found most divorcing parents would prefer to use the children against one another than to work together. No matter how many times I tell them how much damage they are doing to their kids %28and even give them literature on the subject%29 they prefer to carry on their rather useless vendettas. Sad%2C really.%0D%0A%0D%0AIn NJ%2C in those child support guidlines I explained in excrutiating detail %28lol%29 there is a calculation that allows for visitation expenses and if one party has his or her children two or more overnights a week%2C the percentage of time the child is in his or her house is also worked into the calculation.%0D%0A%0D%0APS%3A Even with full shared parenting%2C one parent who earns a lot more than the other will be required to pay child support even if he or she has the children 50 percent of the time. Remember the whole idea is to support the child in the custom that his or her PARENTS %28plural%29 can provide. The court will not countenance one parent having the children spend half their time in a trailer eating hot dogs and the other half in a mansion eating steak. %3AD%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Fcat3.gif http%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Ftiere%2Fcatmilk.gif Cats rule%3B Republicans drool%5B%2Ffont%5D 91|11|Interesting points|lazarus||15:25:42|11/24/2001|First%2C the automatic JC is simply the starting point. If one parent is proven unfit%2C obviously you have to alter the situation.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ve seen more studies showing that JC is better for the kids%2C actually. It also%2C oddly enough%2C reduces the divorce rate. Which is really interesting%2C and sheds some light on why a lot of divorces happen.%0D%0A%0D%0AAs for the financial aspect. If the court determines that the child should have the standard of living of one parent%2C then that parent should have custody. It%27s the fair way to do it. And it%27s the only way to accomplish the goal.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 94|12|the rights belong to the child|dsc||15:57:06|11/24/2001|The child has the right to live with the better parent. The child also has the right to the standard of living s%2Fhe enjoyed prior to the divorse. All too many times divorcing parents are so wrapped up in their selfish and petty selves that they forget that. I quite frankly am way tired of hearing divorced parents bitch and moan about their lot in life. The saying that one has made his or her own bed and now needs to lie in it comes readily to mind. %0D%0A%0D%0AFar too many marriages with children are ended for no good reason. In cases of marriages with children society may need to go back to the idea of fault. 95|13|Amen|lazarus||16:14:44|11/24/2001|And now%2C we are in complete agreement.%0D%0A%0D%0ANo-fault divorce caused some major problems in this country. Do you know that over 90%25 of divorces are instigated by the woman%3F Who receives custody over 90%25 of the time%3F Tragic.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat%27s very interesting is Default Joint Custody. In areas where this has been tried%2C the divorce rate has halved. Quite possibly%2C some people are actually bothering to work on the marriage for a change.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 99|14|Hooooo Boy....|Cappurr||18:36:39|11/24/2001|Now you REALLY got me going%2C Laz.%0D%0A%0D%0AFirst of all you are a liberal. Do you REALLY mean that if one parent has more money than the other%2C he%2Fshe should get custody%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F Comeon. %0D%0A%0D%0AFirst%2C you need to understand where I %28and most divorce laws%29 are now coming from. Marriage is a partnership. In the %22traditional%22 marriage men have careers and women either stay at home on work in whichever jobs they can find that neither interfers in their husband%27s careers or their children%27s schedules%2Flives. So you get married at 25%2C divorced 15 years later two kids ages 10 and 7. Hubby has worked for 15 years%2C moving once or twice to meet his company%27s requirements. He has done pretty well and is now upper management making 110%2C000 per year with lots of neat stock options and a rosy future still ahead at his company.%0D%0A%0D%0AWife%2C meanwhile%2C started out in the same company. Thats where they met. But the first time hubby got transferred%2C there was no job for her at the new location with the company. Actually%2C they wanted to sent her to London%2C but of course%2C hubby had no job there. Besides%2C she had just found out she was preganant.%0D%0A%0D%0ASo they move to hubby%27s new job. Wife has baby and hubby and wife say they%27s prefer their child not to be raised in day care and since they moved%2C wife and hubby don%27t have trusted family around%2C so wife stays home with baby%2C takes care of home%2C cooks%2C cleans%2C irons hubby%27s shirts %28he HATES the damn starch they put in at the cleaners%29%2C gives little dinner parties for hubby%27s clients and generally makes sure their home and lives run pretty smoothly. Wife gets pregnant again%2C baby born and wife still stays home because neither likes the idea of daycare.%0D%0A%0D%0AThen the youngest finally goes to kindegarten. Wife goes job hunting. But damn. Shes been out of the market for nearly ten years. Still%2C shes a smart cookie%2C so she gets a position just a bit lower than the one she had when she first got married and hopes she%27ll be able to work her way back up someday. She makes about 40%2C000. %0D%0A%0D%0AWife decides she is real damned tired of making house work like clockwork. Now that she is working%2C hubby is so used to having things miraculously done for him he hasn%27t a clue how to %28or why he should%29 have to help out. Besides%2C he%27s screwing his secretary. No time for home.%0D%0A%0D%0AWife gets fed up. Files for divorce. %0D%0A%0D%0ANow husband would never have reached the salary level he had as a married man nor would he have enjoyed the life he had for fifteen years if wife hadn%27t agreed to uproot twice and move so his career could advance%2C to the detriment of her own. He benefited from the clean house%2C the dinners%2C the ironed shirts and the well-cared for kids.%0D%0A%0D%0ABoth are good parents%2C but mom has definitely been the primary caretaker%2C staying with the kids when they were sick%2C taking them for their immunization shots%2C to the dentist%2C their first day of school and their ballet and piano lessons.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut husband now earns 110%2C000 per year. Wife earns only 40%2C000.%0D%0ALaz thinks husband should get custody of kids. Cappurr thinks husband should pay wife about %2420%2C000 in alimony and %2415%2C000 in child support. The reason why the alimony is higher is because it is tax deductible right off the top to husband and wife must pay taxes on it. So alimony really costs hubby about %2414%2C000 and wife gets a real benefit of about %2416%2C000. Uncle Sam loses out a bit. %0D%0A%0D%0AAnd wife DESERVES alimony because without her%2C hubby wouldn%27t be earning such a good salary%2C have such a bright future and without him%2C wife would have been earning a hell of a lot more.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd since their incomes are now roughly equal%2C there is no reason to grant custody on gounds of who earns the most.%0D%0A%0D%0AOh -- about those stock options -- wife gets 50%25 %3AD%0D%0A%0D%0AWife finally %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Fcat3.gif http%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Ftiere%2Fcatmilk.gif Cats rule%3B Republicans drool%5B%2Ffont%5D 100|15|Nice story|lazarus||18:54:36|11/24/2001|Too bad it doesn%27t happen that much any more. Welcome to the post-50s.%0D%0A%0D%0ALet me tell you how it happens around here. Man and woman get married. Both have jobs. Wife gets pregnant. Wife quits job. Man gets second job to help support them. Repeat.%0D%0A%0D%0AWife gets bored. Wife decides to play the field. Wife goes to court%2C tells the judge the man is threatening her%2C and gets a restraining order on her word alone. Man is suddenly cast out of his family%2C with no way to see his kids.%0D%0A%0D%0AWoman files for divorce%2C gets custody%2C gets child support. Man is now having to maintain a separate household%2C and help maintain the children%27s household. How is he supposed to now try establishing another family%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ABut he tries. He works his butt off%2C gets a promotion%2C gets a major pay raise. And is taken to court%2C because now it%27s more expensive to raise the kids. So he pays more child support.%0D%0A%0D%0ARepeat ad infinitum. Note also that there is less than a 10%25 chance that the man will ever get custody. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 107|15|Sorry Cappur|haele||20:00:19|11/24/2001|Look%2C I know I%27m not a family court lawyer%2C but I%27ve seen a lot of divorce in the military and in the engineering fields %28and there%27s a high rate in both fields%29%2C and it works both ways. Especially with the increase in professional women%2C who work long hours at the office and%2For have affairs at the same rate as men in their positions do.%0D%0A%0D%0ABefore you get on a high horse%2C yes%2C I know women who were screwed by the ex-husband %28had one living at my house for a bit while she got on her feet%29. I know guys who can afford it that refuse to pay support%2C and these guys are scum.%0D%0A%0D%0AI also know guys who try to do the right thing with their kids%2C but can%27t afford to support two seperate households%2C one for the ex and kids%2C and one at which they try to survive enough to keep working%2C on what they make. %0D%0A%0D%0AI also know a very few %28three%29 men who have custody of their children%3B and they just don%27t get the support that women who have custody do - even in pursuing delinquent claims. According to one guy%2C the state seems to think that because they%27re men%2C they can easily make enough money to keep a kid on their own%2C because%2C %22of course%2C that%27s what they did before%22. Despite the fact that in each of those cases%2C the then-wife-now-ex was also working and contributing to the family bills... Even the Navy doesn%27t seem to care about giving male sailors the family care help they%27d give the female sailors.%0D%0A%0D%0AI know women in %22no fault%22 situations claiming to be victims of the system who frankly screwed their own marriages and play the %22evil-ex%22 game and actually use the kids against the man for more money. Some women work %22under the table%22 or unofficially co-habitate%2C not claiming income or the fact they have someone helping with bills or paying rent to the state and CPS. Women who are participating in fraud.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ve experianced serial mothers%2C women who don%27t get married%2C but play the field for the child support.%0D%0AThe latter two sets of women are what give the women who are justified in a divorce and divorce settlement a bad rap. %0D%0A%0D%0AIn fact%2C a third of the marriages that I%27ve seen that end in divorce never should have happened in the first place. They happened because one party wanted the extra benefits or pay that a married person gets%2C or because the woman got pregnant. Is there any wonder why such a casual reason to marry ended in divorce%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AThere is only one %22victim%22 in most no fault divorce situations%3B and that%27s the children who get played with in court. %0D%0ANot the wife%2C not the husband%3B they made their choices%2C their mistakes%2C and are disolving a life partnership for lack of communication or compromise and are in the process of making equitable compensation for that partnership.%0D%0A%0D%0AOf course%2C if we were discussing spouses cheating on each other%2C the spouse that cheats on the marriage vow should get punished. Same as the spouse who abuses the other spouse or children. %0D%0A%0D%0ABut automatically assigning guilt because of gender and precieved social order %28the man works%2C is aggressive and is always evil%2C the woman cares for the house%2C is maternal and is always good%29 is ridiculous. That%27s the easy way out%2C and is not just in the least. %0D%0A%0D%0AEach divorce%2C custody%2C or support case should be tried on it%27s own merits%2C not because of preconceived merits.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut unfortunatly%2C the above preception of guilt and victimization is what tends to automatically be assumed when the family ends up in court.%0D%0A%0D%0AHaele 111|16|Halele and Laz....|Cappurr||20:43:12|11/24/2001|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Nov-24-01 AT 08:51 PM (ET)[/font][p]%5Bfont size%3D%221%22 color%3D%22%23FF0000%22%5DLAST EDITED ON Nov-24-01 AT 08%3A48%A0PM %28ET%29%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AEither you guys missed my point or I didn%27t make it well enough.%0D%0A%0D%0AMy post was a hypothetical example why I disagreed with laz%27s idea that whichever parent earns the better income should get custody of the kids. My point was%2C that there is no reason why%2C since marriage is a partnership and like any other partnership that dissolves%2C benefits must be shared%2C that either parent should have substantially higher income than the other. Child support and alimony take care of that.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd%2C unfortunately%2C I only wish my hypothetical relied on 50s mentality. I see a lot of divorce clients and have literally been through at least 1%2C000 divorces including my own. I can assure you that even in todays world%2C and even though most familys are comprised of husband and wife that work%2C the husbands career usually comes first. And the men that help take care of the home%28as opposed to the children%2C where men are really becoming far more active fathers%29 are few and far between.%0D%0A%0D%0AAlimony and child support are generally based on two things -- need and ability to pay. And it cuts both ways. Naturally%2C a woman who is earning more than the man should pay the same way a man would and should be pursued if she refuses to pay child support.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd as far a women that go around having children just to get child support -- well I gotta tell you that is the same kind of argument that conservatives made about women having children just to get welfare. It doesn%27t compute. I%27m not saying it doesn%27t happen. I%27m saying it doesn%27t compute. I have worked with child support calculations since 1982 and I can guarantee you there is no way you can make money on child support unless you give your child away and continue to collect the support. Or unless you neglect the child and in that case%2C husband should immediately move for custody.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd laz%2C I know that child support increases as time goes by. It increases because of inflation%2C because the kids needs change and often because the parents income itself increases. A two year old child will be happy with a baby doll and clothes from K-mart. A ten year old wants to play baseball%2C maybe an instrument%2C and refuses to wear any sneakers that don%27t light up. Not to mention computers and computer games. As kids get older%2C they get more expensive. That is a fact.%0D%0A%0D%0AHowever%2C the age of the child is not a part of the NJ child support guidlines. Inflation is. And every three years you have a right to a review of child support. And since the guidlines themselves change every year%2C and especially if your income has increased%2C your child support is likely to go up.%0D%0A%0D%0AI agree that more dads should get custody of their children. I have represented many dads in custody cases and won my fair share of them. And on a very personal note %28something I rarely share with people%29 when I got divorced my ex and I had a joint custody arrangement where he had the children during the school year and I had them on weekends and during the summer. So he had them more than I did. And it was terribly hard. So Laz%2C I DO know where you are coming from. My custody arrangement was negotiated and I agreed to it. It was the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. But my ex was getting remarried%2C he had a better home life for them than I did %28I was in my last year of law school and had no idea where I was going next%29. So believe me%2C I know what sacrificing for my children%27s sake means. That is why I get so very%2C very pissed at people that use their children in a divorce. They need to grow the fuck up for their kids sake. And if your wife won%27t do it than YOU do it. My ex was a jerk about the kids and his new wife was worse. But I refused to allow my kids to be pulled apart and I ignored the ex%27s more idiotic tricks. When I absolutely couldn%27t%2C I took him to court to enforce holiday visitation%2C whatever. And I always won. So did my kids because they never knew about it.%0D%0A%0D%0AAll I can say to you is if you want Fucked Up kids%2C just keep them in the middle%2C and keep telling them what a whore your wife is %28or what a pimp the boyfriend is%2C whatever%29. Kids need to love and respect both parents and I think many divorcing couples behavior actually borders on child abuse.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd yes%2C there are women who work under the table. But there are also men who work under the table. They all suck. Divorce is the one area of the law where people get on the stand and lie their asses off and no-one gets prosecuted for perjury. Again%2C they need to grow the fuck up and work to make the best life they can for their kids. Most won%27t of course%2C but they have my undying contempt.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd Laz%2C you hit on one of my pet peeves -- the Domestic Violence Act. I happened to be in the prosecutors office when New Jersey wrote its Act and I was assigned the task of reviewing and editing the proposed legislation. I was proud of that Act. %0D%0A%0D%0AThen I went into private practice and saw how it was being abused. The Domestic Violence Act is for the protection of co-habitants that are in danger from their partners. But people use it as a tactic to get unwanted partners out of the house. There are even lawyers who advise their clients to do it. They%2C too%2C have my undying contempt. Thankfully%2C in this area%2C most Judges are getting more and more strict about what behavior falls under the act. Just a simple screaming match%2C even with a few thrown plates %28as long as the plates werent thrown AT anyone%29 will not constitute actionable behavior. But%2C of course%2C the person that got thrown out of his or her house by the cops has been inconvenienced for several days and the children%2C of course%2C have been traumitized. %0D%0A%0D%0ALastly%2C with regard to your comments about fault -- there is no damn way to judge fault -- even with adultery. Lets face it%2C we never know what goes on in a marriage and we just can%27t judge. There is always her story%2C his story and the truth somewhere in between. No-fault divorce is the only way to go.%0D%0AD %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Fcat3.gif http%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Ftiere%2Fcatmilk.gif Cats rule%3B Republicans drool%5B%2Ffont%5D 112|17|great post|dsc||21:08:52|11/24/2001|as usual. You obviously are a terrific parent. Your children are lucky to have you. Trust me they know who the good person in all of this was. I would only add to your advice to Laz that his kids will also grow to hate him if he continues to bad mouth his ex wife. %0D%0A%0D%0AI think divorces should be divided into two classes those with minor children and those without them. If a couple has no children and want a divorce then I say have at it. Once children fall into the mix then there should be a reason. The marriage in the case of children is no longer a contract between two people but among a family. I really do not mean to make use fault to divide assets as much as to make parents have a reason to end a marriage. %0D%0A%0D%0AI admit that this is personal for me in that I will never get married nor have children so that when people get married and have children and then act like horses asses when they get divorces it steams me. 113|18|Hey....dsc....|Cappurr||21:27:15|11/24/2001|I never meant that laz was badmouthing his ex to his kids. I was just speaking generally on that score. And as far as fault when you have kids -- I%27m one of those people who believe that kids know when their parents aren%27t getting along and are unhappy and that never helps the kids. My own parents were divorced after 32 years. They should have divorced after 5. Believe me%2C it was no fun to be a kid in that house.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Fcat3.gif http%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Ftiere%2Fcatmilk.gif Cats rule%3B Republicans drool%5B%2Ffont%5D 115|19|what I meant|dsc||21:58:50|11/24/2001|was that divorces with children should take longer and be preceded by conseling %28sp%29 I dated a guy whose parents had a marriage similar to your parents%27 marriage and can relate to what you said.%0D%0A%0D%0A 114|17|I think we were arguing the same points %22sideways%22.|haele||21:28:11|11/24/2001|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Nov-24-01 AT 09:28 PM (ET)[/font][p]And the points%2C as far as I can see%2C are how totally f%2A%2Aked up it is that we in society are not taking issues that end up in family courts seriously%2C that the %22system%22 is set up so that it%27s too easy to turn the situation into a competition rather than a situation to be resolved fairly%2C and the need for consistancy and some sort of realistic arbitration and counciling to go into judgements and awards.%0D%0A%0D%0AUnless both parents are in some sort of agreement%2C the child seems to always lose%2C no matter what the outcome.%0D%0A%0D%0ABTW%2C this particular issue is a hot button%2C I%27ve had to help bail out %28literally and monetarily%29 or make scheduling modifications and arrangements for four of my workers in custody cases over the past two years over issues with lawyers working for CPS against the wishes of the other ex-spouse - or with rather spiteful ex%27s.%0D%0AIn the same period I%27ve had to let go two non-custodial parents who weren%27t making payments or had any concern for their kids%2C mainly due to the extended court and jail time that tends to crop up when they take that attitude.%0D%0AIf a custodial or non-custodial parent %28three of the four above were non-custodial%29is serious about being part of the kid%27s life%2C any problems that come up tend to have a nasty effect on their ability to work. When they%27re in positions of authority%2C it affects the company and customer.%0D%0A%0D%0AThat%2C and having to deal with the serial mother and her many %22friends%22 across the street for the past five years%3B helping her older daughter get through school and find a decent job to help take care of her younger siblings%2C since mom%27s support money seems to be going to her %22friends%22 or up her nose. %28yes%2C I know that%27s a nasty crack%2C but...it%27s a matter of a shoe fitting.%29%0D%0A%0D%0AAnyway%2C glad for the discussion%2C sorry about the venting.%0D%0A%0D%0AHaele%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A 118|17|a point|lazarus||22:56:04|11/24/2001|Age of children doesn%27t enter into it in Alabama. They%27ve got a nifty little chart. Add the parents%27 incomes. Cross to the number of kids. There will be a number that is the amount that should be spent on the child. If the NCP makes 70%25 of the income%2C then he pays 70%25 of the amount determined to the CP.%0D%0A%0D%0AThis is possibly the silliest way of determining child support they%27ve come up with yet. The NCP is ordered to report any change in income. If his income goes up%2C so does the child support. Note that the CP is %5Bi%5Dnot%5B%2Fi%5D required to report her income. The NCP would have to go to court to determine that.%0D%0A%0D%0AThanks for recognising the problems with the domestic violence issue. I%27ve noticed that in this area%2C women tend to win custody simply by throwing DV or molestation out there%2C with no fear of reprisal. Have you ever heard of a perjury charge coming out of family court%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 121|18|Only once.....and then it was a wierd one...|Cappurr||23:23:10|11/24/2001|Mother got 18 year old daughter to lie about being in college in order to collect c.s. from dad. When I learned about it %28I was representing dad%29 I threw a real hissy fit and even went after the other attorney %28who I know damn well was fully aware of the lie%29. The mother was charged with subordination of perjury. She also had to pay my attorney%27s fees. Nothing happened to the daughter %28as well it shouldn%27t%29 and the lawyer got off scott free too. Can you just imagine the pressure this young girl was under to get on the stand and lie to a judge%3F It was disgusting. %0D%0A%0D%0AAnd your state law re Child Support is stupid. It has got to consider both incomes.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Fcat3.gif http%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Ftiere%2Fcatmilk.gif Cats rule%3B Republicans drool%5B%2Ffont%5D 123|19|I%27ve been considering|lazarus||23:33:04|11/24/2001|A discrimination lawsuit. And I will definitely pursue it if I don%27t gain custody next year when I file.%0D%0A%0D%0AFairly easy%2C since well over 90%25 of custodial parents in this state are women. %3Aevilgrin%3A%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27d love to see perjury charges being brought against these folks abusing the DV laws%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 125|14|cite%3F|bain_sidhe||02:24:51|11/25/2001|Where did you get the %22women instigate 90%25 of divorces%22 statistic%3F I haven%27t seen that before. I have seen the %22women get custody 90%25 of the time%22 statistic... but in the interest of fairness I have to point out that this statistic is somewhat misleading%2C because it%27s partly the result of the fact that men often don%27t %5Bb%5Dask%5B%2Fb%5D for custody. Studies of the family court system in various states have shown that fathers win custody in court more than half the time when they actually do contest for custody - and sometimes significantly %5Bb%5Dmore%5B%2Fb%5D than half the time. The Massachusetts gender bias task force%2C for example%2C reported that fathers receive primary or joint custody in more than %5Bb%5D70 %25%5B%2Fb%5D of contested cases. %0D%0A%0D%0A%28Cite%3A Lynn Hecht Schafran%2C %22Gender Bias in Family Courts%2C%22 American Bar Association Family Advocate%2C Vol. 17%2C No. 1%2C p. 26 - this article isn%27t available online%2C but you can find the cites by going to http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ocof.org%2FWelcomePage%2FWelcome_To_The_FACTS.htm and clicking on %22Gender Bias%22 and%2For %22At Risk Disputes%22 along the side of the page. The studies are cited on both pages. It%27s kind of a weird layout though... in order to find references you have to go to yet another page... the %22Bibliography%22%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Btable align%3D%22center%22 border%3D%220%22 cellpadding%3D%221%22 align%3D%22center%22%5D%0D%0A%5Btr%5D%5Btd align%3D%22center%22%5D%5Bhr color%3D%22%23EF0039%22%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22%23000099%22 size%3D%22%2B1%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22Freedom... is in a secure and undisclosed location.%22%0D%0A%5Bhr color%3D%22%23EF0039%22%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22%23000099%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DGeorge %22I wanna be a dictator%22 Bush%2C %5Blink%3Awww.whitehouse.gov%2Fnews%2Freleases%2F2001%2F11%2F20011119-5.html%7CNovember 19%2C 2001%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5B%2Ftable%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D 135|15|I%27ll be honest|lazarus||01:09:59|11/26/2001|My files with all these links went away when my hard drive crashed%2C so I%27m going from memory. I%27ve spent several hours doing searches%2C nothing yet. I%27ll be home tomorrow%2C and should be able to turn it up then. I%27ll remove this post and put up a new one when I find it.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 75|4|Have to agree wholeheartedly with MTwain here...|Triana||03:04:27|11/24/2001|I see nothing to get upset about. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D___________%0D%0A%22Being actively stupid helps nothing%22 %0D%0A--Molly Ivins%5B%2Ffont%5D 78|5|that could be because|lazarus||03:09:13|11/24/2001|They haven%27t told you whether or not you can have a child. When they do%2C you%27ll understand.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 27|3|We have had this discussion before|Terwilliger||20:51:03|11/23/2001|You%27re right...it would seem a fundamental right of human beings not to have their reproductive rights curtailed%2C or even monitored. And those women do have responsibility. %0D%0A%0D%0AAnd though I hate to use this worn old bit%2C I will say %22But what of the children%3F%22 It%27s one thing that this guy goes around and f%2Acks anything that moves. But these acts have consequences%2C and he has nine of them so far.%0D%0A%0D%0AThis is an extreme case%2C but that%27s how it always is. There%27s %22clear-cut%22 and then there%27s %22slippery-slope%22 and%2C believe me%2C I don%27t know where the line should be drawn. But this guy seems to be one of the dregs of our society%2C and needs to be dealt with.%0D%0A%0D%0ADeal with the women too%21 Sanction them for allowing these things to go on. And you could solve the situation right now. Have the guy support all of them. I%27m still in favor of him not being able to reproduce without any concern as to his actions. 12|1|Three generations of imbeciles are enought|IndianaGreen||19:43:47|11/23/2001|In %5Bi%5DBuck v Bell%5B%2Fi%5D %281929%29 the Supreme Court upheld a Virginia law authorizing involuntary sterilization of persons with hereditary mental illness as a reasonable exercise of the State%27s police powers. %0D%0A%0D%0AJustice Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote the infamous majority opinion%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%93It is better for all the world if%2C instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility%2C society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes. Jacobson v. Massachusetts%2C 197 U.S. 11. Three generations of imbeciles are enough.%94 %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DBuck v. Bell%2C 247 U.S. 200 %281927%29%5B%2Fi%5D %0D%0A%0D%0AThis issue has gone back and forth in the courts%2C %5Bi%5DSkinner v Oklahoma%5B%2Fi%5D %281942%29 comes to mind. Generally those of us who believe there is a fundamental right to procreate%2C will reject government interference. For example%2C one can oppose abortion because it denies the right to life of the fetus%2C but this is counter-balanced by an abhorrence of having the State make that choice for the mother.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A 13|2|Exactly|lazarus||19:48:39|11/23/2001|Until a very few weeks ago%2C I was pro-life. I still am%2C but I%27m also pro-choice. Allowing something to happen doesn%27t mean endorsing it.%0D%0A%0D%0AWe get enough interference from the State as it is. We don%27t need this. Next step%3A eugenics.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 18|3|Hello Lazarus|Crewleader||20:21:55|11/23/2001|Thanks for the invite only to say...you do catch people%27s attention friend...I agree with you about one thing the government is telling and taking more of our rights...and this terrorism is a excuse for more and I don%27t like it but ...not to get of the topic...Good post Lazarus%21%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.gifs.net%2Fanimate%2Fline.gif%0D%0A%5Bcode%5DWe are inclined to believe%0D%0A those whom we do not know because%0D%0A they have never deceived us.%5B%2Fcode%5D%0D%0A%5Bb%5D%5Bcode%5D%7ESamuel Johnson %5B%2Fb%5D%5B%2Fcode%5D 15|1|The amount of tax you pay to raise these children is minute|illumn8d||20:16:14|11/23/2001|In regards to the %22tax dollars%22 comment...%0D%0A%0D%0AThe amount per tax dollar that we pay for any sort of public %0D%0Aassistance is so small that is shouldn%27t justify an argument. Period. 16|1|Rather than ban him|mzpip||20:18:41|11/23/2001|from fathering more children%2C why don%27t they just throw him in the slammer for failure to pay child support%3F Maybe he can%27t pay child support from jail%2C but it doesn%27t seem that he was anyway.%0D%0A%0D%0AMzPip%0D%0A%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22Conservatives aren%27t necessarily stupid%2C but most stupid people are conservative.%22 John Stuart Mill%0D%0A%0D%0A%22You can put lipstick on a hog and call it Monique%2C but it%27s still a pig.%22 Ann Richards%5B%2Ffont%5D 19|2|Yes%2C of course|lazarus||20:23:03|11/23/2001|We should jail all irresponsible parents. Any mothers on welfare%2C away they go. Fathers who fall behind in child support%2C through no fault of their own%2C into the pit.%0D%0A%0D%0AThis guy is the worst case scenario. That%27s what makes this such a big test for us. Notice how many posters on this thread want to jail him%2C or sterilise him%3F Notice how few actually want to protect his rights%3F %0D%0A%0D%0AHow have we arrived at this point%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 21|3|One Point Deserves Another...|MarkTwain||20:39:47|11/23/2001|%5B %22Notice how few actually want to protect his rights%3F How have we arrived at this point%3F%22 %5D%0D%0A%0D%0AYou seem not to want to address the inherent issue of responsibility. %0D%0A%0D%0AHow have you arrived at that point%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A___________________________________________________%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DIn an Early Report Card on the Bush pResidency%3A BioTerrorism Spreads Domestically With Four Dead%3B Workers%27 Medical Concerns Trashed - While pResident Weekends At Camp David%2C His Government Provides Only Chaos. Republican Cowards%2C Following Their pResident%2C Hide While Rewarding Corporate Masters With Massive Tax Cuts. During Bush Recession%2C Consumer Confidence Crumbles As Clinton Budget Surpluses Become Reagan Deficits With Record 5.4%25 Unemployment. March Terrorism Report on Cheney%27s Desk While Finance And Government EpiCenters Laid Waste. pResident Gives %2443M And Promises %93Second Chance%94 to bin-Laden Financed Taliban Thugs Implicated In Murder Of Five Thousand Americans. Senate Control Handed to His Opposition. Faith Based Sham in Shambles. Stem Cell Theories Proved Fraud. Just Ten Months%3A The Shape Of Things To Come%3F %0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 25|4|Easy|lazarus||20:46:13|11/23/2001|Because it%27s not germane to the argument. When did we decide that we can eliminate someone%27s right to reproduce%3F Where is that law%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AUnder what conditions%3F And why is it being applied to a man%2C not the women in the case%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 23|3|Rights|mzpip||20:41:38|11/23/2001|come with responsibilites. This cuts across the entire spectrum of law an society. We earn the right to drive a car. If we continually act irresponsibly behind the wheel we lose the right to drive. We have the right to buy things on credit%2C but if we don%27t pay our bills we lose our credit%2C get our wages garnished. If we have children%2C it is our right to do so%2C but it is also our responsibility to take care of them. A little common sense here please. All welfare mothers should not be thrown in jail. I never said that. %0D%0A%0D%0AMr. Macho Man can earn back his rights by meeting his responsibilities under the law. I don%27t think he should undergo forced sterilization but he should be forced to support his kids.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22Conservatives aren%27t necessarily stupid%2C but most stupid people are conservative.%22 John Stuart Mill%0D%0A%0D%0A%22You can put lipstick on a hog and call it Monique%2C but it%27s still a pig.%22 Ann Richards%5B%2Ffont%5D 24|4|but by tying|lazarus||20:44:54|11/23/2001|reproductive rights with responsibility%2C you are indeed effectively sterilising him. Either he can have kids%2C or he can%27t. It%27s not something you earn.%0D%0A%0D%0ADo you earn the right to vote%3F Do you earn the right to be a citizen%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ANotice how it%27s a man who%27s losing his right to reproduce. Not a woman. Ever wonder about the mothers of these children%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 31|5|He has kids|mzpip||21:01:00|11/23/2001|Nine of them. How many more does he need before you consider the need for him to be responsible%3F Like it or not rights and responsibilities are tied together. %0D%0A%0D%0AI did not earn the right to vote but I take that right seriously and study the issues and vote responsibly. I was born in this country so I really didn%27t have a choice about becoming a citizen. This guy has choices and he chooses to be irresponsible.%0D%0A%0D%0AMzPip%0D%0A%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22Conservatives aren%27t necessarily stupid%2C but most stupid people are conservative.%22 John Stuart Mill%0D%0A%0D%0A%22You can put lipstick on a hog and call it Monique%2C but it%27s still a pig.%22 Ann Richards%5B%2Ffont%5D 45|6|You don%27t get it at all|lazarus||00:47:55|11/24/2001|Who are you to tell him what he can do with his body%3F This is just a matter of choice.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 128|5|If a woman has 9 ...|Gin||13:47:55|11/25/2001|babies...and none of them are being supported by anyone except the tax payer..I say..tie her tubes...Have as many children as you can afford to care for...If the expectation is to keep creating babies with no consequences and expecting the rest of the citizens to pick up the tab..the end result is forced sterilization...if she can support them without being on the dole..more power to her...have 50...social securtity needs the funds...same with the men...have as many as you can support...the operative phrase being...%22you can support%21%22 156|5|The VAST majority of Welfare Mothers have ONE child.|LibMod||14:58:17|11/27/2001|And that was true even before welfare reform. This man most likely has fathered these children by at least five different women%2C and it could possible be one child each by nine women. Guys like this habitually go after %22jail bait%22 %2815-to-17 year-olds%29 because he knows they%27ll knuckle under and give in. %0D%0A%0D%0AI don%27t %22wonder%22 about the women. I wonder why men get the idea that they can go around doing this. This kind of man could talk a nun into a sack.%0D%0A%0D%0ARemember that this is a court order saying that he is not allowed to impregnate any more women%2C and court orders hold no weight until it can be proven they have been violated %28ask anyone holding an %22order for protection%22 from a stalker%29. In this case%2C that would mean that his 10th is already on the way. Nowhere does it say that he has to get a vasectomy.%0D%0A%0D%0ABan him%2C and either jail him for 25-to-life%2C or forcibly vasectomize him%2C if he keeps doing it. Bringing children onto this earth has responsibilities%2C and if you%27re not willing to honor them%2C you don%27t deserve the right to do it.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22You can be right-wing%2C or you can be right. You can%27t be BOTH at the SAME time.%22%5B%2Ffont%5D 162|6|some issues|lazarus||19:15:55|11/27/2001|First%2C it was 5 women%2C so at least one of them is multiple. If I remember correctly%2C it was three that were multiples.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DI don%27t %22wonder%22 about the women. I wonder why men get the idea that they can go around doing this. This kind of man could talk a nun into a sack.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AReally%3F The man is doing it on his own%3F He can talk a nun into the sack%3F Who are these men with this amazing power of persuasion%2C that women need to protected from them. I%27m curious.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DBringing children onto this earth has responsibilities%2C and if you%27re not willing to honor them%2C you don%27t deserve the right to do it.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AWell%2C his wasn%27t the only responsibility. He%27s apparently trying%2C to the tune of paying 70%25 of the child support required.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt doesn%27t really matter. We%27ve established that you feel reproduction is only available to those who can afford it. I guess we%27ll be dismantling the whole welfare and assistance structure next.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 85|4|You are obviously not a Hoosier%2C mzip|IndianaGreen||12:45:58|11/24/2001|%5Bi%5DWe earn the right to drive a car%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AAll Hoosiers are taught from the time we are toddlers that %22driving is a privilege.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0ANothing personal. but the %22rights come with responsibilities%22 bit is pure hogwash that is often trumpeted by Conservatives. We hear this kind of drivel so many times%2C from politicians to media know-it-alls%2C that it gets implanted in our brains as if it were true. It is false%21 Please allow me to elaborate%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DWe hold these truths to be self-evident%2C that all men are created equal%2C that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights%2C that among these are Life%2C Liberty%2C and the pursuit of Happiness.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.law.indiana.edu%2Fuslawdocs%2Fdeclaration.html%0D%0A%0D%0ALiberty is a gift from the Creator%2C not from Government. One of those liberties is the right to procreate. I will also point out that the flip side of the right to procreate is the right to choose not to procreate.%0D%0A%0D%0AAs you can see from the following post%2C this issue had gone back and forth in the Courts%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5D12. %22Three generations of imbeciles are enough%22%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dlist_threads%26om%3D9755%26forum%3DDCForumID5%2312%0D%0A%0D%0AIn post%2312%2C I mentioned %5Bi%5DSkinner v Oklahoma%5B%2Fi%5D without going into the details. The issue was an Oklahoma law of 3-strikes you-are-out. The %22out%22 meaning the reproductive organs. Anyone convicted of 3 felonies%2C involving %22moral turpitude%2C%22 could be forcibly sterilized. Mr. Skinner%2C no relation to the owner of this board%2C was convicted of 3 felonies%3A stealing chickens in 1926%2C and armed robbery in 1929 and 1934. The State began proceedings to get Mr. Skinner sterilized with a vasectomy. I will remind the reader that eugenics was big then%2C it was believed that the traits of antisocial behavior could be passed from generation to generation.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe majority opinion was written by Justice Douglas%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DThis case touches a sensitive and important area of human rights. Oklahoma deprives certain individuals of a right which is basic to the perpetuation of a race -- the right to have offspring....%0D%0A%0D%0AWe are dealing here with legislation which involves one of the basic civil rights of man. Marriage and procreation are fundamental to the very existence and survival of the race. The power to sterilize%2C if exercised%2C may have subtle%2C far-reaching and devastating effects. In evil or reckless hands it can cause races or types which are inimical to the dominant group to wither and disappear. There is no redemption for the individual whom the law touches. Any experiment which the State conducts is to his irreparable injury. He is forever deprived of a basic liberty. %5B%2Fi%5D %0D%0A%0D%0AThen there is the Ninth Amendment to the Constitution%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DThe enumeration in the Constitution%2C of certain rights%2C shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AIn its 1965 landmark case of %5Bi%5DGriswold v Connecticut%5B%2Fi%5D%2C in which the Court held that the State was wrong in forbiding the sale of contraceptives%2C Justice Goldberg wrote a concurring opinion in which he said that just because some rights are not enumerated in the Constitution%2C it doesn%27t mean that they do not exist%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DTo hold that a right so basic and fundamental and so deep-rooted in our society as the right of privacy in marriage may be infringed because that right is not guaranteed in so many words by the first eight amendments to the Constitution is to ignore the Ninth Amendment and to give it no effect whatsoever.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AThe majority opinion in %5Bi%5DGriswold%5B%2Fi%5D was written by Justice Douglas %28the arch-enemy of the rightwing%2C I wonder why%3F%29%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DThe association of people is not mentioned in the Constitution nor in the Bill of Rights. The right to educate a child in a school of the parents%27 choice - whether public or private or parochial - is also not mentioned. Nor is the right to study any particular subject or any foreign language. Yet the First Amendment has been construed to include certain of those rights...%0D%0A%0D%0Aspecific guarantees in the Bill of Rights have penumbras%2C formed by emanations from those guarantees that help give them life and substance...%0D%0A%0D%0AWe deal with a right of privacy older than the Bill of Rights - older than our political parties%2C older than our school system. Marriage is a coming together for better or for worse%2C hopefully enduring%2C and intimate to the degree of being sacred. It is an association that promotes a way of life%2C not causes%3B a harmony in living%2C not political faiths%3B a bilateral loyalty%2C not commercial or social projects. Yet it is an association for as noble a purpose as any involved in our prior decisions.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AYou may dislike David Oakley%27s personal behaviour%2C and he may be incarcerated for being in arrears in child support%2C but no one can take away Mr. Oakey%27s fundamental right to procreate.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%0D%0A%5Bi%5DSic semper tyrannis%21%0D%0A %0D%0A%0D%0A %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A %0D%0A%0D%0A 86|5|actually|dsc||13:21:15|11/24/2001|The government takes away the rights of criminals all the time. Commit a grizzly murder in your state and see what the state does with your life. Rob a bank in your state and see what the state does with your liberty not to mention what will happen to your pursuit of happiness. %0D%0A%0D%0AThis man committed a crime that allowed the judge to sentence him to 8 years. He chose instead to sentence to 3 years in jail and 5 years probation. Probation by its very nature violates the rights of the people on it. People on probation lose the right of association. They lose the right to chose the kind of job they can have. They have restricts on where they may live. People on probation may have their homes and bodies serched at any time. In short people on probation due indeed have their rights given to them by the government. 102|6|we are speaking of forced sterilization|IndianaGreen||19:03:55|11/24/2001|and you are repeating the republican mantra with its usual moralistic spin that I described in my post%2C which you obviously did not read or understand.%0D%0A%0D%0AI am not here to debate GOP talking points. Re-read the post%2C it deals with the law%2C it does not deal with a moralizing spin on what the law ought to be. 103|7|no we are not|dsc||19:37:31|11/24/2001|The court in this case ordered no such thing. He is merely being told not to have kids that he has no thought of supporting. This is for a limited period of time and is related to his crime. The cases you sight are competley different. Those involve permanent sterilization of people whose crimes have nothing whatsoever to do with children. 104|8|So%2C then|lazarus||19:43:19|11/24/2001|It would be okay for a court to %5Bi%5Dtemporarily%5B%2Fi%5D take a woman%27s right to choose away%3F Since it%27s just for a set period of time%2C of course......%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 106|9|I apologize for the caps but|dsc||19:49:59|11/24/2001|you seem to not be able to hear me otherwise.%0D%0A%0D%0AI AM NOT PRO CHOICE. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH DOING TO A WOMAN WHAT WAS DONE TO THIS MAN IF SHE DOES THE SAME THING. IF A WOMAN ABANDONS 9 KIDS AND PAYS NO SUPPORT SHE SHOULD ROT IN JAIL AND HAVE THE SAME CONDITIONS ON HER PROBATION. I HAVE SAID THIS AT LEAST 5 TIMES COUNTING THIS ONE. DO YOU GET IT THIS TIME%3F 109|10|Okay|lazarus||20:12:19|11/24/2001|Sorry%2C thought you supported choice for women. My mistake.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 154|2|It would also stop him from pro-creating.|LibMod||14:45:33|11/27/2001|Heck%2C he might end up on the receiving end for a change%21%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22You can be right-wing%2C or you can be right. You can%27t be BOTH at the SAME time.%22%5B%2Ffont%5D 26|1|You guys ain%27t gonna like this....|Cappurr||20:49:13|11/23/2001|But having sat in court for many years%2C listening to case after case of failure to pay child support%2C I gotta weigh in. %0D%0A%0D%0AFirst of all the %22cost%22 we are talking about is a lot larger than you realize. It is not just the welfare costs for the children%2C it is the cost of the systems itself %28court%2C family services%2C lawyers to process and prosecute failure to pay child support cases%2C etc.%29 There is also the enormous social cost of all of these children without stable homes. %28And no%2C I don%27t necessarily equate wealth with stability%2C but you just try to raise kids on welfare. Hell%2C try to raise a damn dog on welfare%29%0D%0A%0D%0AI have sat in courtrooms and heard as many as seven %28SEVEN%29 different non-support cases called in a row%2C with seven different plaintiffs %28mothers%29 and the SAME father. Altogether there were 11 children involved in that single case. %0D%0A%0D%0AAnd by the way%2C it is NOT unusual to have multiple non-support cases with more than one mom and the same dad. It literally happens every calandar where I practice in southern NJ. And it must happen all over the country%2C in every jurisdiction. Frankly%2C I don%27t much blame this judge for getting pissed off.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd remember%2C this guy is NOT being sterilized. He is not even being jailed. He MAY go to jail IF he has additional children AND fails to prove he can support them.%0D%0A%0D%0ANow I realize damn good an well that poverty is the problem and there are good%2C left wing solutions to poverty. But we do need to stop people from procreating all over the place without having a concomittant responsibility to support their children.%0D%0A%0D%0AHaving children is not a %22right%22. It is a responsibility. Even lower animals understand that and they take care of their young until they are strong enough to live on their own. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Fcat3.gif http%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Ftiere%2Fcatmilk.gif Cats rule%3B Republicans drool%5B%2Ffont%5D 35|2|Apparently Mr. Oakley has paid about 70%25 of waht he owed|IndianaGreen||21:33:04|11/23/2001|%5Bi%5DOakley claimed the court did not consider the payments he had made prior to his probation%2C which he said amounted to 70 percent of what he owed. %0D%0A%0D%0AOakley has four sons and five daughters%2C ages 3 to 16%2C with four women.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AI can only say that it takes two to tango%2C and these women bear one half of the responsibility for Mr. Oakley%27s dipping his wick in different waters.%0D%0A%0D%0A 37|3|%22Dipping wicks%22%3F |Cappurr||21:46:54|11/23/2001|LOL. You are right%2C of course%2C but how is one woman supposed to know that another woman has been impregnated%3F However%2C I do agree that women are equally responsible to financially support their kids. Problem is%2C of course%2C lack of day care available. You know it costs my son 400 dollars a WEEK to care for my granddaughter when he and his wife are at work. And my clients%2C who DONT have money%2C and search for day care tell me that at a minimum they have to pay %24150 to %24200 a week for the most modest daycare programs. Tell me how a single mom is going to afford that%3F Like I said above%2C there are many left-wing ideas %28good ones%29 for getting rid of poverty%2C but what do we do NOW%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Fcat3.gif http%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Ftiere%2Fcatmilk.gif Cats rule%3B Republicans drool%5B%2Ffont%5D 39|4|Why do you think I became a Marxist%3F|IndianaGreen||23:27:20|11/23/2001|In socialist countries day care was free. It is an issue of societal priorities%2C you know. People before profits%2C children before bombs%21%0D%0A%0D%0AGetting day care for an infant is next to impossible. 47|2|So|lazarus||00:50:09|11/24/2001|We%27re now going to start practising economic eugenics%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 130|2|I agree...|Gin||13:56:15|11/25/2001|Having children is a responsibilty for the two involved...the judge should have ordered sterilization..if he goes to jail he cant work...it%27s another bill we have to pay while he is being taken care of by the biggest parent of all...the government.. 131|3|sterilization%3F|lazarus||17:25:33|11/25/2001|A question%2C are you pro-choice%3F Because this is a very anti-choice position to take.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 29|1|I took the article to mean|Demobrat||20:55:32|11/23/2001|that he was going to jail for non-payment of child support for the nine kids he already had%2C and that if he racked up any new charges while on probation %28by having more kids and not supporting them%29 he would have to go back to jail to finish his sentence. To me that%27s no different from going to jail for any other crime%2C getting out of parole%2C committing the same crime again while on parole%2C and having to go back to finish your sentence. They%27re not telling him not to reproduce. They%27re telling him to pay his child support or go to jail. 30|2|Well%2C yes....and no...|Cappurr||21:00:13|11/23/2001|They are actually saying if you have any MORE kids and can%27t prove how you are going to support him%2Fher%2C you are subject to prison.%0D%0A%0D%0ATruth is%2C in most states%2C you can%27t put a guy in jail forever for not paying child support. They pick the guy up on a warrant %28which takes forever%29%2C put him in county jail and bring him in front of the judge each week until he pony%27s up some money and signs an %22agreement%22 for repaying the rest. Which%2C of course%2C he never does. So he gets picked up again some day%2C gets hauled into court yada yada yada..%0D%0A%0D%0AIts a joke%2C really.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Fcat3.gif http%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Ftiere%2Fcatmilk.gif Cats rule%3B Republicans drool%5B%2Ffont%5D 33|3|So he goes to prison for three years|Demobrat||21:09:18|11/23/2001|and when he gets out he know that if he has any more kids he can%27t support he goes back in for another five. Sounds like a deterrent to me. So far so good. And if he wants to have more kids%2C nothing%27s stopping him %28theoretically%29 from shaping up. I don%27t know. I think the judge made a good decision. 34|4|Well....|Cappurr||21:24:09|11/23/2001|You are right%2C I suppose. But the truth is this is a very eggregious case. Most child support cases are not handled in criminal court. They are handled in Family court. In NJ%2C you CAN be indicted for %22criminal non-support%22. And that CAN require State prison time. But I was a prosecutor for five years and I don%27t recall one case being indicted for criminal non-support. The criminal system simply can%27t handle it.%0D%0A%0D%0ASo it is done in family court. These guys are arrested on contempt charges for failing to abide by a court order. It is not criminal. That is why they can%27t be held in jail unless the judge is convinced that they are deliberately violating the order. In other words%2C that they have the money but arn%27t paying it. That is rarely the case. And the judge becomes %22convinced%22 by keeping the guy in jail for a week or two. But like I said%2C you can%27t keep him there forever. And the criminal system would be overwhelmed if you tried to do it through the criminal court. Remember%2C you%27d have to have lawyers appointed%2C jurys empanelled. The whole nine yards.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Fcat3.gif http%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Ftiere%2Fcatmilk.gif Cats rule%3B Republicans drool%5B%2Ffont%5D 50|4|sounds good%3F|lazarus||00:56:02|11/24/2001|The judge made it a crime for him to have kids. How is that good%3F %0D%0A%0D%0AWe keep yelling about our rights%2C and yet here%27s a basic one being snatched.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 117|5|The judge didn%27t make it a crime to have kids|Demobrat||22:23:51|11/24/2001|He can have all the kids he wants. As long as he pays his child support%2C there%27s no crime. Still don%27t see a problem. 119|6|He%27s been told|lazarus||23:04:12|11/24/2001|Not to have kids he can%27t support. The women haven%27t been told that. That%27s discrimination.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 48|3|by the way|lazarus||00:52:18|11/24/2001|You do realise that women who are to pay child support are twice as likely to be delinquent as the men%2C don%27t you%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd the way you phrase it here%2C his impregnating a women is now a crime punishable by jail. I have a problem with that.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 116|4|Impregnating the woman is not the crime.|Demobrat||22:21:51|11/24/2001|Non payment of child support is the crime. If he pays%2C no crime. He can have all the kids he wants. 32|1|And exactly how is this ban going to be enforced%3F |rocknation||21:07:20|11/23/2001|%5Bb%5D...the judge delayed an eight-year prison sentence in favor of five years of probation. %0D%0AThe judge said Oakley will go to prison if he has any more children while on probation and refuses to pay child support...%5B%2Fb%5D %0D%0A%0D%0AThat means he wouldn%27t be imprisioned until after the fact of the child%27s birth. And what happens five years later when if he were to start knocking up women all over again%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DOakley claimed the court did not consider the payments he had made prior to his probation%2C which he said amounted to 70 percent of what he owed.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0AThat%27s YOUR problem%2C fella--nobody told you have have nine kids%21 38|1|his rights are not being taken away|dsc||22:40:56|11/23/2001|He could choose to serve the entire term in jail and come out free and clear. He evidently does not wish to do that. He could pay for his nine kids and therefore have no conditions. He evidently does not wish to do that either. This man has 9 kids by 4 women and has refused to pay for them for so long he has literally been convicted of a crime. As more than one poster pointed out that takes a special kind of man.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt should be pointed out that in cases of drug use women have agreed to the implantation of norplant as a condition of probation. He isn%27t even being forced to take birth control. He merely has to pay for any kids he chooses to have.%0D%0A%0D%0AAs a person who has taught in both inner city and Mississippi Delta schools I don%27t have alot of patience for this. Many girls %2814-17 year olds%29 were being impregnated by men %2820-30 year olds%29 who of course left them high and dry and us to pay for the upkeep of the children. %0D%0A%0D%0AI admit to being biased about this as I will never have children of my own. This man is a serial sirer. He is manifestly unfit to sire any more children. Let him either serve his sentence or pay for his kids. 54|2|refused%3F|lazarus||01:06:09|11/24/2001|He%27s paid 70%25 so far. Is it possible that the child support owed is more than he actually makes%3F I%27ve seen cases like that.%0D%0A%0D%0AAs far as his rights not being taken away%2C here%27s an example for you%3A%0D%0A%0D%0AYou can no longer leave the city limits without paying a sum equal to 15%25 of your income. Or you can go to jail for 5 years to obtain a free pass for life. Sound good%3F Sound like a good deal%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AOne other tidbit%3A women are much more likely to be delinquent than men.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 58|3|actually|dsc||01:21:51|11/24/2001|He says he paid 70%25. I have never heard of anyone being sent to jail for a specified amount of time for non payment of child support. This man must define piece of work. I have heard of people being jailed for contempt for non payment but in those cases all they had to do was pay and they could get out.%0D%0A%0D%0AI have no idea if the statistic you have given relative to men vs women on this issue is correct or not. But rest assured if you can produce a woman who has been even 2%2F3 as irresponsible as he has %286 children by at least 2 fathers%29 who is not paying her way then by all means locker her butt up too. In short women get no free pass on this from me. But in my experience with teens at school it is teenage girls who are preyed upon by 20 something men far more often than 20 something women preying on teenage men. As in from just 5 years of teaching in inner city type schools I could give you at least a dozen examples of students I have taught who fit the first senario and I can honestly think of none of my students who fit the second. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe simple fact is he impregnated 4 women a total of 9 times. If I did that then I should have to pay to support the kids too. If he is merely paying 15%25 of his income for that he is getting a terrific deal unless he is Bill Gates. I%27m sorry but not only am I not outraged I think it is a terrific alternative sentence. Jail is lose lose. Society loses by not having him pay anything toward those kids and by having him take up a cell a murderer should be in. THe kids lose by not having the money he could pay. The women lose by not having whatever he did to help. Here he is out to pay for at least some of what he owes. 59|4|couple of misconceptions|lazarus||01:31:35|11/24/2001|The 15%25 number was just pulled out of thin air to make a point. It could easily have been 50%25 or 80%25. Just trying to make a point%2C and failed. Sorry.%0D%0A%0D%0ANow%2C on to irresponsibility. How irresponsible must someone be for them to be told they may no longer reproduce%3F One month behind%3F Two%3F Three%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd did you notice that he had multiple births on several of the mothers%3F At what point does responsibility also lie with them%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ALots of talk about a woman%27s right to choose%2C don%27t mess with her body%2C etc. But we%27re more than willing to take away a man%27s right to choose.%0D%0A%0D%0ARemember%2C this guy is the extreme. This is the test. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 66|5|to be honest |dsc||02:07:12|11/24/2001|I don%27t know how far behind crosses the line but this man fell so far behind he convinced either a jury of his peers or a judge beyond a reasonable doubt to convict him of a crime. A crime for which he could have been sentenced to 8 years. He got 3 and 5 of probation. %0D%0A%0D%0AI think I have answered your repeated questions of the women but let me be blunt. If they are neither paying to support nor raising the children then they should be in the same mess he is in. Let me repeat that so you hear me if they are neither paying to support nor raising these kids then they should be in the same mess as he is. I hope you got it this time. %0D%0A%0D%0AThere is a difference in that they are raising the children. Also the public aid angle actually is the least of my concern here. This man is leaving a wake of fatherless children for society to take care of. The fact the women have responsibility for this too does not leave him off the hook. This man is a criminal. I don%27t say that a jury did. Like any criminal on probation he has conditions. If he doesn%27t like them he can go back to jail. Frankly I think the judge should have required him to get a tattoo on his penis saying deadbeat.%28that is a joke%29 But go figure he didnt think of it. 67|6|Fine%60|lazarus||02:19:04|11/24/2001|Then every mother who is not supporting her children%2C who must receive child support and government aid%2C should go to jail. Your standards.%0D%0A%0D%0AA jury did not convict this man. A judge held him in contempt of court. The contempt was due to his inability to pay child support%2C which was dictated by a judge. At no point has this man ever been before a jury.%0D%0A%0D%0ASo%2C no jury%2C but he loses the right to bear children. Because he can%27t afford it. Nice.%0D%0A%0D%0AYou need to figure out how far crosses the line%2C however%2C if you%27re going to be handing down judgements like this. You%27re still missing my point%2C which is that this is the start of the slippery slope. This guy is%2C in my opinion%2C an unrepetant bastard who has no business being a father. But that%27s life. Society doesn%27t have the right to decide that%2C and it shouldn%27t.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 71|7|I reread the article twice|dsc||02:40:31|11/24/2001|He was found guilty of one charge of failure to pay child support %28%2425%2C000%29 for which he was sentenced to 3 years. He was found guilty of another two counts for which the judge put him on probation with the stipulation you find so odious. The hearing described in the article is clearly a sentencing hearing where there would be no jury. But he was found guilty of an actual criminal felony which means he was either%0D%0A%0D%0Aa%29 found guilty by a jury%0D%0A%0D%0Ab%29 found guilty by a judge or%0D%0A%0D%0Ac%29 pled guilty%0D%0A%0D%0AIn cases a and b the standard would have been beyond a reasonable doubt. Also he would have been entitiled to a jury trial so b is only possible if he waived a. Further in some states the people also have to waive the jury. Finally in case c he certainly would have known the conditions of the probation before hand as c would have been the result of a plea bargain. %0D%0A%0D%0AActually no. Every mother who mothers 9 children out of wedlock%2C leaves them with 4 different men%2C and refuses to pay support should be locked up. Also to be fair I had actually stated 6 children would be enough. Incidently I would lock up the man in this case without regard to whether the state or the women or some combination of the two are paying the bills. These women could be Bill Gates long lost children and he still should have to pay support. 72|8|It was a judge|lazarus||02:47:07|11/24/2001|Sorry%2C I remember this case when it first came out. Haven%27t found it yet%2C though. But it was family court%2C if I remember correctly%2C which means no jury. It was a contempt case.%0D%0A%0D%0AAs for the rest%2C well%2C it%27s amazing how much the right to choose goes out the window when it%27s pushed to the limit. That%27s the test I%27ve been talking about. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 74|9|If you are right|dsc||03:00:54|11/24/2001|then the article if very poorly written. Not only that the judge should have been overruled because contempt can only be used to make a person comply with previous orders not make a person comply with putative%28future%29 orders. To give an example.%0D%0A%0D%0AYou sue me and the judge gives you the right to depose me. I refuse to sit for the deposition. The judge can hold me in contempt for that and give me the choice of jail or sitting for your deposition. He can not say and BTW you also have to give him documents. %0D%0A%0D%0AIf this was indeed a contempt case then I would agree that the judge was out of line. But again the article directly states that this was a criminal case and the hearing described was a sentencing hearing. If that is not the case then that paper needs to hire a new reporter. 79|10|the problem is|lazarus||03:11:44|11/24/2001|Family Court. It%27s a strange place%2C with bizarre rules and a truly vicious system aimed at the father. I%27ll do some research and throw together a fun post on the abuses of the family court system. You%27ll be shocked.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 96|11|I actually read the case|dsc||16:30:29|11/24/2001|The man pled no contest to three charges of failure to pay support. He had agreed that the prosecution could ask for 6 years but that he would be free to argue for less. He did so and got 3 with 5 probation. Bottom line he was convicted of a crime and not contempt of court. %0D%0A%0D%0AThat makes him a criminal. 97|12|Debtor%27s prison|lazarus||16:42:57|11/24/2001|Child support is now the only debt for which one can be jailed%2C then. What%27s next%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 98|13|there are many|dsc||17:00:59|11/24/2001|debts for which one can go to jail if they do not pay. Try not paying your taxes. Try not paying speeding tickets or criminal fines. I for one think that child support should be on equal footing to these. %0D%0A%0D%0AThis is not like the money you borrow to buy a car or a house. This is not money that you borrow to buy jewelery or trinkets. If child support is not paid a child goes hungry or naked. If child support is not paid a child goes without medical care or education. Not paying child support steals a childs childhood. Frankly I consider it worse than not paying fines or taxes. %0D%0A%0D%0AHe ought to be glad he did not get me as a judge. He would have had the 6 years and the probation. 101|14|clever|lazarus||18:59:24|11/24/2001|Child support is often a debt the man did not contract for. Yet he can go to jail for not paying this debt.%0D%0A%0D%0AHere%27s a fun one. There%27s a case of a man who was in an accident and spent six months in the hospital. When he got out%2C he was jailed for failure to pay child support%2C even though he had no income and was utterly unable to pay it. This is fair%3F You%27re making the father nothing more than a check. So long as he pays%2C everything%27s fine.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut I have yet to see a woman get put up on charges for filing for welfare because she can%27t support the child.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 105|15|to the contrary|dsc||19:46:44|11/24/2001|When you had the kid you contracted to pay. There was no fine print that said if your wife is a shrew you don%27t have to pay. There was no fine print that said if your wife had an affair you did not have to pay. There was no fine print that said if you hate your wife more that you love your child you don%27t have to pay.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe case you sight about the guy with an accident is outrageous if your facts are right. Your track record is not so good on that so if you have a sight I can see the papers I would like it. %0D%0A%0D%0AI do not believe that men are soley checks far from it. Parents who refuse to see their children or refuse to let the other parent see them are even worse than those that refuse to pay. They are no less theives of childhood that the dead beat parents. Just like there is no fine print getting you out of your contract there is none to get them out either. 108|16|One issue|lazarus||20:09:30|11/24/2001|The man has no choice. The woman does. She can decide whether to bear the child%2C but he has no choice whatsoever. But he%27s still in for 18 years of support.%0D%0A%0D%0AAlso%2C I don%27t appreciate the implication about my %22track record%22. If you think I%27m making this stuff up%2C fine. %0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Ffact.on.ca%2Fnewpaper%2Fst991003.htm%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ll also remind you that there are Child Support Enforcement agencies in every state in the union%2C as well as a federal agency. Care to guess how many visitation enforcement agencies there are%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 110|17|you do have a choice|dsc||20:33:19|11/24/2001|you can refrain from sleeping with her. In point of fact though in the case of divorces when the woman becomes a single parent she no longer has the choice either. You are right that the track record thing was a cheap shot. I was referring though to our discussion about the Wisconsin case. %0D%0A%0D%0AI am sorry for this case that you have the site for. I wonder though what the parent on the other side would say if her side had been written up. I do also wonder if these people have not heard of SSI. The little girl should be on it which would pay for all the medical expenses. 120|18|The impression I got|lazarus||23:09:47|11/24/2001|Was that the mother is sympathetic. You need to understand that the mother is often not the demon here%2C it%27s the state. The state pays for the lawyer%2C the state determines when this stuff happens.%0D%0A%0D%0AInteresting bit of synchronicity%3A I just a few hours ago received a summons to family court in a couple of months. They finally noticed that I told them a year ago my income had gone up. Now they want more. And I%27ll have to pay the court costs%2C too. Despite the fact that I made that increase in pay by working 70%2B hour weeks for two years%2C while the ex has worked maybe 6 months in the last ten years. Of course%2C the example is wonderful for my daughter. Work your butt off to get ahead%2C so the state can take a chunk of money out of your check. Sit around and do nothing%2C and the state will send you a check.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe choice issue you bring up is the same tired argument brought up about abortion. There%27s a choice. Right. We can play with that one for a while if you like.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 122|19|actually|dsc||23:31:18|11/24/2001|You brought up choice not I. I was admittedly being flippant. I have to say that if you make extra money you should pay more. Your daughter is entitled to your standard of living. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe court should have adjusted this sooner. It also seems to me that even in cases the court is overseeing there should be some mechinism to adjust for income without court costs. Though having lived in the South I know how backward it can be. 124|20|standard of living|lazarus||23:37:59|11/24/2001|If the state wants her to share my standard of living%2C I%27ll be more than happy to take over custody.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd there is indeed a mechanism for doing this without court costs. The state lawyer decided not to pursue it. I%27ll be mentioning that to the judge. This lawyer I previously smacked around in court%2C and got the judge to smack him%2C too. A very good day%2C but he%27s out to get me now. Ah well.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 138|21|You%27re right%2C Lazarus%2C but for the wrong reason...|Illuminatus||15:07:14|11/26/2001|The reason the Judge is out of line here is because the State doesn%27t agree with him. In fact%2C the State could very easily ensure that this reprobate doesn%27t reproduce%2C if it criminalized non-payment of support sufficiently. If the criminal penalties were big enough%2C he%27d be in prison for a VERY long time%2C and that would make it very wasy to prevent him from reproducing.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe Judge%27s problem is that the sentence for non-payment isn%27t long enough to really stop this man%27s behavior. But%2C well%2C that%27s a choice that the State has made.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bb%5DFnord%21%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%3Askull%3A%5B%2Ffont%5D 139|22|Illuminatus...|Cappurr||15:54:18|11/26/2001|Read my post %2334. There is no way the criminal justice system can deal with the number of parents that ignore support orders.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22And the criminal system would be overwhelmed if you tried to do it through the criminal court. Remember%2C you%27d have to have lawyers appointed%2C jurys empanelled. The whole nine yards.%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Fcat3.gif http%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Ftiere%2Fcatmilk.gif http%3A%2F%2Fwww.smilies-world.de%2FSmilies%2FSmilies_klein%2FSmilies_klein_1%2Fcat3kl.gif Cats rule%3B Republicans drool%5B%2Ffont%5D 142|22|Thankfully|lazarus||20:02:54|11/26/2001|No state has yet seen fit to so blatantly practise economic eugenics. Although I%27m sure it%27s coming.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 81|5|responsibility|FreeBilly||03:44:41|11/24/2001|%22And did you notice that he had multiple births on several of the mothers%3F At what point does responsibility also lie with them%3F%22%0D%0AI read nothing of the mothers abandoning the children to their fates%2C which is what he did by not providing for them. You have to agree that the mothers have shown SOME degree of responsibility beyond that shown by him.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Lots of talk about a woman%27s right to choose%2C don%27t mess with her body%2C etc. But we%27re more than willing to take away a man%27s right to choose.%22%0D%0A I don%27t see anybody who wants to take away his right to choose. He has already chosen NINE times to practically abandon his progeny. As far as criminality%2C I am no lawyer like Capurr%2C but I think it qualifies as some sort of fraud on the women. If he has paid 70%25 of the child support he owes%2C and assuming that the total child support amount is about half of what it takes to sustain a child%2C then the mother is paying an extra 30%25 than her share. And I%27m POSITIVE she%27s not a rich lady either.%0D%0A%0D%0A 92|6|Fraud%3F|lazarus||15:30:04|11/24/2001|Possibly she committed fraud%3F %22It%27s okay%2C I%27m on the pill.%22 Hmm%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AHis right to choose is being threatened. If he impregnates a woman%2C he goes to jail. That%27s a right being threatened if I ever saw one.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 64|4|side note...|haele||01:51:32|11/24/2001|Not quibbling %28I made my opinion clear upthread%29%2C but I%27ve known a few %22serial single mothers%22 with four to seven children by three or four men whom they%27ve never married %28the one with seven%2C six girls and one boy%2C lives across the street from me now%29%2C and they all get off scott free with benefits. Even CPS tends to give them the benefit of the doubt%3B three of the women mentioned have had their kids taken away several times - one because she was a tweeker and came up positive on her once a year test - only to be returned a few weeks later. %0D%0A%0D%0AAnd yet%2C the single fathers who%27s ex%27s divorced them%2C %28most times as a %22no fault - incompatability%22 and mothers get automatic custody%29 end up facing heavy fines and possible jail time - even if they fall behind on their payments due to layoffs or poorly paying jobs while sharing apartments with strangers and eat bulk frozen dinners.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s the inequality%2C the %22ideal victimization%22%2C that bothers me. Yes%2C I%27ve seen the jerky ex-husbands%2C too...but I%27ve seen just as many jerky ex-wives who use the kids as weapons.%0D%0A%0D%0AResponsiblity goes both ways. No one side should be automatically villified against the other.%0D%0A%0D%0ANow%2C for your second issue%2C the inner city youth%2C if the teenage girls are underage%2C then the 20-something males who prey on them should go to jail. Period. And same with older women%2Fboys. BTW%2C from what I remember of my high school%2C several of the %22cool boys%22 used to go out with college girls for experiance...that was supposed to be a badge of manhood%2C or something like that. Perhaps the difference is that the boys don%27t obviously become %22victims%22 with dependants on the public system like girls do when they%27re going out with an older preditor.%0D%0A %0D%0AHaele%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A 69|5|look|dsc||02:19:52|11/24/2001|I have said in many posts that I am not giving women some sort of free pass on this. Frankly if the tweeker mom was neglecting or abusing her kids she should have had them taken away until she cleaned up her act. Not only do I have no problem with that I would encourage that. Kids are not chattle that parents have some God given right to. They are gifts God bestows upon us that should be taken if we refuse to take care of them. %0D%0A%0D%0AI also have no problem with adjusting support to meet circumstances and believe all parents should be evaluated as to who is best. I am certainly not saying that all men who fall one day behind in child support ought to be jailed. Nor am I saying that all women are angels on this issue. Since I have not been married I have no personal experience about this. What I am saying is that this criminal deserves the sentence he got. %0D%0A%0D%0AYour point about boys vs girls is well taken which is why I said I did not know of boys fitting my second senario not that they did not exist. 70|6|Nobody deserves this|lazarus||02:29:15|11/24/2001|That sort of situational ethics is what%27s leading to the consideration of torture for terrorists. %22It%27s just that this case is so bad.......%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 40|1|does society have the right|Hamlette||00:08:18|11/24/2001|to make parents pay for the upkeep of their children%3F What can society do to enforce it%3F If so%2C why do you object to jail%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AThe analogy to abortion is a good one. Abortion is only legal until the fetus is viable. Then there is a conflict of rights and the mom can terminate only if her life is in jeopardy. %0D%0A%0D%0AHere there is likewise a conflict of rights. Rights of the children to support and rights of the father to procreate.%0D%0A%0D%0AIf you are looking for nightmare stories though I think we had the worse one here%3A Tom Green%2C polygamist with 5 current wives%2C 5 former wives%2C 30 children under the age of 18 by the 5 current wives %28unknown how many children total%29 and 3 of the wives are currently pregnant. The family%27s total annual income is %2416-%2420%2C000. The poverty level for a family that size is %2496%2C000. He was charged with bigamy%2C criminal non support and statutory rape %28one of his wives gave birth when she was 14 and 3 months old. He %22married%22 her at age 13. 3 were 14 when they married him and one was 15.%29%0D%0A%0D%0ATom took to the talk show circut a couple of years ago taking his wives and proclaiming it was a wonderful life and that he didn%27t receive any public assistance. The prosecutor got pissed because we all knew the family does receive tons of public assistance. %0D%0A%0D%0AWhat do you do with Tom%3F Does he have a right to keep adding to his harem%3F Does society have the right to limit the number of children%3F Wives%3F %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AJustice not Vengence. %0D%0ALet us not become what we abhor.%5B%2Ffont%5D 41|2|Society does have the right |dsc||00:14:02|11/24/2001|to limit both the number and age of wives. Mr. Green is definately breaking the law by having more than one wife. He also is breaking the law by marrying a 13 year old. 43|3|Mr. Green was smart...|Cappurr||00:44:59|11/24/2001|He legally divorced each %22wife%22 before marrying the next one. And I don%27t believe marriage to a 13 year old is against the law in Utah. Besides%2C what do we do with the children%3F Put them back%3F %3Acrazy%3A%0D%0A%0D%0ABTW -- Great post Hamlette. %3AD%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Fcat3.gif http%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Ftiere%2Fcatmilk.gif Cats rule%3B Republicans drool%5B%2Ffont%5D 49|4|really|dsc||00:55:27|11/24/2001|You can marry a 13 year old in Utah%3F Geeze I thought Mississippi was bad. There it was 14 and the parents had to say yes. 52|5|I THINK so...|Cappurr||01:01:08|11/24/2001|I DO know%2C whatever he did with regard marrying the 13 year old it wasn%27t illegal. Maybe he waited til she was 14. Don%27t really know.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Fcat3.gif http%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Ftiere%2Fcatmilk.gif Cats rule%3B Republicans drool%5B%2Ffont%5D 63|6|yick|dsc||01:41:59|11/24/2001|I can%27t imagine marrying a 13 year old. Very gross. Give me a real man any day. 60|4|Not legally divorced|Hamlette||01:33:40|11/24/2001|He said he %22divorced%22 each one but he certainly didn%27t do it legally. He couldn%27t because he didn%27t marry them legally either. They held themselves out as husband and wife %28wives%29 so it is common law marriage here.%0D%0A%0D%0ALegal age for marriage here was 14 with parental permission. It is now 16.%0D%0A%0D%0AYou are right%2C what do you do%3F Put %27em back%3F That is why we have always provided support to polygamist families here. We draw the line at child care support however. %282 %22sister wives%22 Jane and Sally each open an %22at home day care center.%22 Jane tends Sally%27s kids while Sally works at her %22at home day care center%22. Who does Sally tend%3F Jane%27s kids. We have refused to pay for that scam.%29 Anyway%2C lots of fun legal questions here but the real question is%3A what do we do%3F They say it is a violation of their religious beliefs to prosecute them so we usually don%27t. And if they support their kids%2C I don%27t mind...much. Not enough to prosecute them at least. But if they are marrying even 16 year olds and have 30%2B kids they can%27t support%3F I say lock %27em up. %28BTW%2C to the person who said welfare is not that expensive I would remind you that it isn%27t just cash assistance%2C we also subsidize housing%2C provide food stamps and the big ticket item%3A medicaid. Even for 9 kids that can be very expensive.%29 %0D%0A%0D%0AYeah%2C mom has some responsibility and should be held to the same standard. Problem is you gotta leave one of them out of the slammer to take care of the kids. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AJustice not Vengence. %0D%0ALet us not become what we abhor.%5B%2Ffont%5D 68|1|I think you%27re misinterpreting this case|bain_sidhe||02:19:30|11/24/2001|The man has already been convicted of a crime - failure to pay child support. As a result of that conviction%2C he received a sentence involving some jail time and some time on probation. Courts set conditions for remaining on probation instead of serving the jail time all the time. Many of them involve restrictions of rights that non-convicted citizens enjoy - not owning a gun%2C or not %22associating%22 with known criminals for example. In this case%2C one of the conditions for remaining %22in good standing%22 during probation is not to father children without supporting them.%0D%0A%0D%0AWomen have had similar - and even more intrusive - conditions placed on them for remaining in good standing during their probation. Women convicted of drug crimes or child neglect have been forced to have norplant implanted for the duration of their probation%2C for example.%0D%0A%0D%0AThat said%2C I am leery of this ruling as a kind of %22slippery slope%22 problem. As others in this thread have pointed out%2C this decision %28and%2C the norplant decisions I mentioned above%29 set a precedent for the state deciding who can and who can%27t have kids. That%27s a bad precedent%2C IMHO.%0D%0A%0D%0ATo those who say the women should bear some of the responsibility%2C perhaps I missed something%2C but aren%27t they already providing a home%2C food%2C and care for the children%3F I don%27t think any of them abandoned the children%2C did they%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AOn the issue of %22paper abortion%22 for men%2C I actually support the idea of a legal termination of parental interest in a child... I think some details have to be worked out%2C though. And the more difficult abortions are to obtain%2C the less I support the idea of %22men%27s choice.%22 It%27s one thing to say %22well%2C men should be able to %22terminate%22 just like women can%2C%22 it%27s quite another to make it easy for the man to do so and virtually impossible for the woman to do so. Another detail is the timing - I think the man should be required to make his decision early enough so that the woman still is able to obtain an abortion safely if she does not want to continue the pregnancy once she knows she won%27t be getting any help. There are probably more details that need to be worked out%2C but in general%2C I DO support the concept.%0D%0A%0D%0AOn the flip side... if the father %2Adoesn%27t%2A terminate his parental interests%2C I also think he should be required to share the burden - to the extent possible - of continuing the pregnancy. That means paying for half the out-of-pocket costs for medical care %28or insurance premium%29%2C half the lost wages if the woman gets fired for being pregnant%2C or %28if the girl is still in school%29 half the cost of home tutoring or special programs if the school requires them to drop out of %22regular%22 classes. I think it is simply unfair for one party of a two party act to bear the entire %22cost%22 of that act. So%2C it kind of sucks for women who chose to continue the pregnancy when the guy %22terminates%22 but at least she knows up front%2C and can make her decision about whether to continue the pregnancy with that knowledge.%0D%0A%0D%0AAbout the %22welfare%22 angle... well%2C in my personal opinion%2C if she knows she can%27t rely on the assistance of the father%2C I think she should either be prepared rely on herself%2C or not have%2Fkeep the baby. But I wouldn%27t be willing to make that decision %2Afor%2A the mother %28OR father%29%2C just like the abortion decision. Kinda sucks for taxpayers though.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Btable align%3D%22center%22 border%3D%220%22 cellpadding%3D%221%22 align%3D%22center%22%5D%0D%0A%5Btr%5D%5Btd align%3D%22center%22%5D%5Bhr color%3D%22%23EF0039%22%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22%23000099%22 size%3D%22%2B1%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%22Freedom... is in a secure and undisclosed location.%22%0D%0A%5Bhr color%3D%22%23EF0039%22%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22%23000099%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DGeorge %22I wanna be a dictator%22 Bush%2C %5Blink%3Awww.whitehouse.gov%2Fnews%2Freleases%2F2001%2F11%2F20011119-5.html%7CNovember 19%2C 2001%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5B%2Ftable%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D 82|1|Courts Getting Too Many Powers%21|farmboxer||03:59:03|11/24/2001|I don%27t agree with the man%2C but I don%27t like the Courts using so much power over so many people for so many things%21 Something smells like a dictatorship here in America%21 Adolf Hitler is alive and well in America%21 84|1|I Hope It%27s Rush Limbaugh%21|CO Liberal||12:02:22|11/24/2001|Seriously%2C this is a bad example to make your case%2C Lazarus.%0D%0A%0D%0AAs a divorced father who went without for many years to make sure my two children were taken care of financially%2C I don%27t give a shit about this guy%27s %22right%22 to make more babies. He has shown by his actions that he is selfish%2C self-centered%2C and has no repect for the women he has been involved with%2C the children he has fathered%2C the law%2C or society in general. He has shown a lack of responsibility. So the judge is forcing responsibility on him.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s a shame this lesson is being learned now. I%27m sure this bastard%27s parents are SO proud of him..... %0D%0A%0D%0A%2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A %2A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DCO Liberal%0D%0A%0D%0A%3Abounce%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Outside of a dog%2C a book is man%27s best friend. Inside of a dog%2C it%27s too dark to read.%22 - Groucho Marx%5B%2Ffont%5D 89|2|I Was Hoping Rupert Murdoch|Slim Shady||15:21:23|11/24/2001|Because he%27s icky 93|2|that%27s the point|lazarus||15:33:45|11/24/2001|He%27s a bad example. I%27ve made the point several times on this thread%2C and nobody%27s caught it yet.%0D%0A%0D%0AThis guy is the extreme example. If we let this one slide%2C then where do we draw the line next%3F This is akin to the ACLU defending the Klan. It%27s an extreme case%2C and it%27s tempting to let it go. That%27s the danger here.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 137|1|this is in response to post 124|dsc||14:42:43|11/26/2001|Your post mentioned that the child should live with you in order to have your standard of living. You also mentioned that you work 70 hours a week in a previous post. Assuming your child goes to school for 8 hours a day she is gone for 40 hours. That leaves 30 hours of supervision. Since you are dealing with evening hours it will be very difficult to find day care. That leaves a nanny with things like Social Security taxes. You also would be paying for all the utilities and food consumed during those 30 hours. Just what do you think your standard of living would be after you did that%3F %0D%0A%0D%0AIncidently this does not even begin to cover the summer and other breaks from school. Just a thought Lazerus. 140|2|That was all|lazarus||19:58:29|11/26/2001|Rhetorical%2C I wasn%27t talking about my situation in particular. %0D%0A%0D%0AOn a personal level%2C if I had custody%2C I%27d be able to shave down the hours I work. It%27s a trade-off. I also wouldn%27t have to work so hard%2C since I wouldn%27t have to be supporting my own household and send a big chunk of change to the ne%27er-do-well ex.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%0D%0A%22We need to understand the international implications of the President%27s order%2C which sends a message to the world that it is acceptable to hold secret trials and summary executions%2C without the possibility of judicial review%22%0D%0A-- Senator Patrick Leahy%2C chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee%2C November 14%2C 2001%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This idea that you don%27t critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense%2C%22 %0D%0A --Richard Shelby%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We can support the troops without supporting the President.%27%27 %0D%0A --Trent Lott %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D 141|1|Tom Delay and Dick Armey should not be allowed to reproduce|Gman||20:01:23|11/26/2001|%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5Dre-elect gore in 2004%5B%2Ffont%5D