74||0|53yes
0|0|Maps of Israel and Occupied territories|IndianaGreen||23:42:44|01/23/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jan-23-02 AT 11:45 PM (ET)[/font][p]I think it will be helpful to many of you to take a look at some maps and see the real estate over which the Israelis and the Palestinians are killing each other%3A%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fimage.guardian.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FGuardian%2FPix%2Fmaps_and_graphs%2F2001%2F07%2F18%2Fisrael_occupiedmap2.gif%0D%0A%0D%0ASource%3A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.guardian.co.uk%2Fisrael%2Fgraphic%2F0%2C5543%2C523588%2C00.html%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.globalpolicy.org%2Fsecurity%2Fissues%2Fisrael-palestine%2Fgraphics%2Fareas.jpg%0D%0A%0D%0ASource%3A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.globalpolicy.org%2Fsecurity%2Fissues%2Fisrael-palestine%2Fland%2F2001%2Flarge.htm%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.globalpolicy.org%2Fsecurity%2Fissues%2Fisrael-palestine%2Fmaps%2Fjerusalem.jpg%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.globalpolicy.org%2Fsecurity%2Fissues%2Fisrael-palestine%2Fmaps%2Fgaza2.gif%0D%0A%0D%0ASource%3A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.globalpolicy.org%2Fsecurity%2Fissues%2Fpalindx3.htm|
1|1|Maps are enlightening%2C educational things...|J B||23:45:16|01/23/2002|Glad I caught this post as I was browsing DU. Balkanized environments are always incomprehensible to the outside when there%27s no visual reference. |0
71|2|for you travellers%2C |Redstar||01:34:45|01/26/2002|here%27s a tip from Fodor%27s 4th edition guide to Bethlehem%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Bethlehem with its famous Nativity Church is only ten minutes by car south of Jerusalem. You can see the city and return to Jerusalem in two hours time. There is a choice-recommended only with a licensed tourists%27 guide-to continue the trip into the West Bank to Tel Azion that can be reached via the new road from Jerusalem%2C through Gilo quarter%2C thus avoiding the unfriendly Arab villages on the road.%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5De m a n c i p a t e y o u r s e l f f r o m m e n t a l s l a v e r y%5B%2Ffont%5D|1
2|1|Deuteronomy 19%3A 1-3|Redstar||00:06:48|01/24/2002|%22When the Lord your God exterminates the nations whose land he is giving you%2C and you take their place and settle in their cities and houses%2C you shall set apart three cities in the land which he is giving you to occupy.  Divide into three districts the territory which the Lord your God is giving you as patrimony%2C and determine where each city shall lie.%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5De m a n c i p a t e y o u r s e l f f r o m m e n t a l s l a v e r y%5B%2Ffont%5D|0
52|2|are you quoting the...|cantwealljustgetalong||01:29:54|01/25/2002|Torah or the Old Testament%3F %7D%3E%0D%0A%0D%0Adon%27t know what this gibberish means either way...|2
58|3|FYI|MikeGalos||03:59:37|01/25/2002|The Torah is the first 5 books of the bible %28the Old Testament to Christians%29%0D%0A%0D%0ASince Deuteronomy is Book %235%2C it would be in both.%0D%0A|52
62|4|yes%2C but...|cantwealljustgetalong||04:30:45|01/25/2002|%0D%0Aare the interpretations of the passages the same in both because the Hebrew Bible%2FTorah is one section of the Tanach %28written law with 24 books%29 and there is the Talmud with the Mishna %28oral law%29and Gemara and I was just wondering if that Deut. passage had the same interpretation in both religions what with all that commentary that follows in one and the New T that follows the other. %3Ashrug%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A|58
64|5|More detail|MikeGalos||05:55:33|01/25/2002|The Jewish %22Bible%22 is the Tanach. The Torah is the first five books. It is a pure subset. There is no difference in those five books.%0D%0A%0D%0AOf course%2C translations and interpretations differ but it shouldn%27t matter which source they%27re from since the sources are identical.%0D%0A|62
67|6|OK%2C then...|cantwealljustgetalong||12:36:13|01/25/2002|%0D%0Athe sources are the same but the translations and interpretations are different so...%0D%0A%0D%0Awhat was Rabbi Redstar trying to tell us%3F|64
68|7|Rabbi Redstar speaketh%21|Redstar||13:22:01|01/25/2002|from the Fifth Book of Moses - today we look at Deutoronomy 11%3A 22-25%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5D%3C%3C  For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you%2C to do them%2C to love the LORD your God%2C to walk in all his ways%2C and to cleave unto him%3B%0D%0A %0D%0A  then will the LORD drive out all these nations from before you%2C and ye shall possess greater nations and mightier than yourselves.%0D%0A %0D%0A  Every place whereon the soles of your feet shall tread shall be yours%3A from the wilderness and Lebanon%2C from the river%2C the river Euphra%27tes%2C even unto the uttermost sea shall your coast be.  %0D%0A%0D%0A   There shall no man be able to stand before you%3A for the LORD your God shall lay the fear of you and the dread of you upon all the land that ye shall tread upon%2C as he hath said unto you.%0D%0A %3E%3E%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5De m a n c i p a t e y o u r s e l f f r o m m e n t a l s l a v e r y%5B%2Ffont%5D|67
69|8|you are quoting...|cantwealljustgetalong||15:48:43|01/25/2002|%0D%0Anot interpreting...%0D%0A%0D%0Aand whatever they may have told you in Sunday school is probably not gonna be quite the same as what they told us in Saturday school...|68
70|8|OMG ROFLMAO %21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21|leave_no_millionaire_behind||22:44:27|01/25/2002|%22Rabbi Redstar%22 %3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ANever thought I%27d live to see that term %21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%0D%0A%0D%0AWeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee %21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A|68
3|1|Yeah Thanks%2C IG|Cappurr||00:23:01|01/24/2002|But truthfully%2C these maps confuse me even more.  It seems even if Israel moved its settlements the %22Palestinian areas%22 would be four or five areas surrounded by Israel and separated from one another by Israel.  How could such a scheme ever work anyway%3F  Or am I just reading the maps wrong.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Btable cellspacing%3D%220%22 cellpadding%3D%220%22%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd valign%3D%22bottom%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Fcat3.gif%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btd%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.plaudersmilies.de%2Ftiere%2Fcatmilk.gif%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btd%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.gifs.net%2Fanimate%2Fcat3.gif%5Bbr %2F%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DCats rule%3B Republicans drool%5B%2Ffont%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btd valign%3D%22bottom%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fimg.livejournal.com%2Fmood%2Fneko%2Fkaokitty%2Fpissed.gif%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5B%2Ftable%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D|0
4|2|Divide and Quit|IndianaGreen||01:02:01|01/24/2002|The Indians and Pakistanis chose in 1947 to %22Divide and Quit%22 %28a decision opposed by Gandhi%29. I firmly believe that the only solution to this conflict lies in the international community imposing a similar %22Divide and Quit%22 scheme in order to stop the violence and the killings in the Middle East.%0D%0A%0D%0AI outlined such a plan in this thread%3A%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fduforum%2Fduboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D890%26forum%3DDCForumID30%2326%0D%0A%0D%0APalestine will be the entire area of the West Bank plus Gaza. There will be no corridor between the West Bank and Gaza for obvious security reasons. This will be similar to the split of Pakistan into East and West Pakistan in 1947. I expect that%2C in time%2C Gaza will split from Palestine%2C just like East Pakistan became Bangladesh.%0D%0A%0D%0ANo Right of Return. The West and the rich Gulf states will compensate all victims of this conflict%2C and they will commit to help the two nations economically.%0D%0A%0D%0AIsrael will be for Jews %28and any non-Jew the Israelis allow to live in their country%29%2C Palestine will be for non-Jews %28there are Palestinian Christians%29. The two sides will be separated by a well armed international force that will include US and Russian troops. I like the suggestion made by The Magistrate of having a Korean-style DMZ separating the two countries.%0D%0A%0D%0AJerusalem will be under international control%2C in perpetuity%21 Jews will control the Jewish religious sites%2C Muslims will control their religious sites%2C and Christians will control theirs. Israel and Palestine can both claim Jerusalem as the capital of their respective countries%2C but Jerusalem will be demilitarized. the only armed force allowed will be the international peace enforcers.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe nationalists and the religious extremists on both sides will violently oppose this plan. Fuck them%21 They will be marginalized%2C and given enough time for peace to take hold%2C they will no longer be able to get new recruits for their cause.|3
5|3|Maps of India and Pakistan|IndianaGreen||01:23:33|01/24/2002|The 1947 partition was very painful. However%2C it did work%21%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.emory.edu%2FENGLISH%2FBahri%2F1945.GIF%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.emory.edu%2FENGLISH%2FBahri%2F1971.GIF|4
10|4|partition|EdGy||09:49:53|01/24/2002|%22painful%22 is an understatement%2C and I%27m not sure what you mean by %22worked%22.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt was the partition itself that caused the massive violence and slaughter of millions in the case of British India.%0D%0A%0D%0AIndia and Pakistan have also fought a number of wars%2C and are now again on the verge of a war in which nukes might be used.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe Brits are big into partitions%2C because they inevitably cause many more problems than they purport to resolve.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe %2748 partition of Palestine among them.%0D%0A%0D%0AOf course 52 years later the partitions have created their own realities.%0D%0A%0D%0AThanks for the maps IG. One really notable thing%3A if you look at the plan that has been described as %22generous%22 to the Palestinians -- think about the implications of that word -- it is very similar to one of the maps above %28the one marking out areas under the PA and under Israeli control%29%2C which is a bunch of small areas and dots cut off from each other on the west bank.%0D%0A%0D%0AIn short%2C the map itself makes it very clear why among Palestinians this %22offer%22 was not popular%2C and hardly as generous as the media here has tended to present it.%0D%0A%0D%0AI think maybe for now%2C IG%2C your solution may be the least bad one.|5
35|5|The British had an unMidas touch...|HAL10000||17:33:42|01/24/2002|... everything they touched turned to shit.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D--%0D%0A%0D%0Al8r%0D%0AWill%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww3.nb.sympatico.ca%2Fpwalker%2Fdom.jpg%5B%2Ffont%5D|10
6|3|or we could keep trying darwinisim|bpilgrim||01:32:46|01/24/2002|and let em keep duken it out%3F %3Apuke%3A%0D%0A%0D%0Athere is no alternative%2C imo%2C Divide and quit%21%0D%0A%0D%0AIndianaGreen%2C you would NEVER make it in politics %3Aevilgrin%3A%0D%0A%0D%0Athanks for all your info and wisdom%21 %3Abounce%3A%0D%0A%0D%0Apeace%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D-- %0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fglobalfreepress.com%2Fimages%2FDr.Stranglove--8.jpg%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fglobalfreepress.org%0D%0A%28Now for PDAs%21 - take THAT FOX%29  %3B-%29%0D%0A%0D%0ASend an email blast to the media today%21%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fglobalfreepress.com%2Fmedia_blast.pl%0D%0A-- %0D%0A%22He that would make his own liberty secure%2C must guard even his enemy from oppression%3B for if he violates this duty%2C he establishes a precedent which will reach to himself.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0A--Thomas Paine %281737-1809%29%2C %0D%0Aconclusion%2C _Dissertation on First Principles of Government%2C_1795 %5B%2Ffont%5D|4
8|3|More difficult than you propose%2C but...|HAL10000||05:16:55|01/24/2002|%5Bb%5DPalestine will be the entire area of the West Bank plus Gaza. There will be no corridor between the West Bank and Gaza for obvious security reasons. This will be similar to the split of Pakistan into East and West Pakistan in 1947. I expect that%2C in time%2C Gaza will split from Palestine%2C just like East Pakistan became Bangladesh.%0D%0A%0D%0ANo Right of Return. The West and the rich Gulf states will compensate all victims of this conflict%2C and they will commit to help the two nations economically.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AHehe.  Won%27t happen.  Once Arafat was %22appointed%22 as head of the PLO%2C it allowed all the other Arab nations off the hook so they don%27t care one bit %28at best lipservice%29.  Besides%2C the people who knowingly stole Arab property should pay %2Ahalf%2A it%27s current value.  The other half should come from... Britain.  That%27s right.  Britain.  Damn British Empire boinked everything they%27ve ever touched and always got away with it.%0D%0A%0D%0AOr the US could %2Abuy%2A out the Palestinian claims.  After all%2C the US does give %245 billion to Israel every year%2C I%27m sure it can come up with something.  But like I%27ve mentioned in other posts%2C America has a vested interest in keeping this conflict going for a while still.  Once Russian oil is a viable alternative%2C expect the US to throw Israel to the wolves.  Then Israel is up the proverbial sh%2At-creek without a paddle.  When has US foreign policy ever given a rat%27s ass%3F  I hope Israel ain%27t countin%27 on the EU after that f%2Acked up shit in Yugoslavia.  And Yugoslavs are pretty much white...  Honestly%2C it still amazes me the Jews and Arabs STILL don%27t see who their real enemy is.  Fucking amazed.  They%27re both being used like tools so we can keep our goddamn gas-guzzling SUVs.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DIsrael will be for Jews %28and any non-Jew the Israelis allow to live in their country%29%2C Palestine will be for non-Jews %28there are Palestinian Christians%29. The two sides will be separated by a well armed international force that will include US and Russian troops. I like the suggestion made by The Magistrate of having a Korean-style DMZ separating the two countries.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AIt would be more like Cyprus though%2C not Korea.  We can deal without the landmines thank you.  %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DJerusalem will be under international control%2C in perpetuity%21 Jews will control the Jewish religious sites%2C Muslims will control their religious sites%2C and Christians will control theirs. Israel and Palestine can both claim Jerusalem as the capital of their respective countries%2C but Jerusalem will be demilitarized. the only armed force allowed will be the international peace enforcers.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AJust having a 3 member council from each side is reasonable%2C but remember%2C the zealots on all sides are NOT reasonable.  Remember Jerusalem is the eternal undividable capital of the %5BJews%2FPalestinians%5D.  Now%2C is Temple Mount Jewish or Arab%3F  Historically it%27s Jewish%2C but since possession is 9%2F10s of the law%2C it would be Arab.  Now convince people to accept the other view.  Good luck.  How do you decide is unbiased to be in the police force to any side%3F  How will you stop charges of favouratism%3F  How do you get the power-players to agree on anything%3F  By gunpoint %5Bb%5Dmight%5B%2Fb%5D be the only thing these people understand.%0D%0A%0D%0APersonally%2C I feel Jericho %28oldest known city in the world consistently inhabited%29 would be a much more interesting capitol for Palestine than Jerusalem anyway.  Allah shuttled Muhammed to what%2C the Noble Sanctuary in ... Jerusalem%3F%3F%3F I thought the Noble Sanctuary was Paradise%3F  Jerusalem is Paradise%3F%3F%3F  Damn%2C they must not get out much or have very LOW expectations for paradise.  %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DThe nationalists and the religious extremists on both sides will violently oppose this plan. Fuck them%21 They will be marginalized%2C and given enough time for peace to take hold%2C they will no longer be able to get new recruits for their cause.%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AEasier said than done%2C and now both sides have small arms up to their teeth%2C well... they%27ll probably succeed in scuttling as they always have.  Israel would actually have a much easier time routing their nationalists.  Just implement proportional representation and all those Israel fringe parties disappear.  Palestinians as a group have to get together and marginalize both Arafat %28you know he was elected by %22default%22 when the PLO was formed%29 and other groups like Hamas.  Now in a way%2C it should be easy too.  Just have to find someone willing to step up to the plate that the majority of both groups can respect %28Arafat isn%27t repected by the Palestinians anymore%2C hence he can%27t control them%29.%0D%0A%0D%0AYou forgot one of the big items though.  Israeli settlements.  Good luck getting them out.%0D%0A%0D%0ANow Israel is also in the West Bank now to ensure water for Israel.  That has to be dealth with as well.%0D%0A%0D%0AThen you have mutual defense agreements %28I%27m thinking Syria or if Egypt collapses into some Islamic state thanks to that retard Mubarak%29.  Jordan might be a problem also.  And when the US cuts aid to Israel%2C what then%3F   You think they can support their military by themselves%3F  I don%27t think so.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D--%0D%0A%0D%0Al8r%0D%0AWill%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww3.nb.sympatico.ca%2Fpwalker%2Fdom.jpg%5B%2Ffont%5D|4
44|4|that %245B to Israel every year is really...|cantwealljustgetalong||22:53:42|01/24/2002|%0D%0A%243B to Israel%0D%0A%242B to Egypt%0D%0A%0D%0Alast I looked they were not the same country...%0D%0A%0D%0Aand most of the %245B never leaves town going straight into the pockets of the American weapons suppliers...so basically the US is giving foreign aid to itself...|8
56|5|Where do the produced weapons go%3F%22|ecampbel||03:13:56|01/25/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-02 AT 03:19 AM (ET)[/font][p]Israel%2C so we%27re certainly not giving foreign aid to ourselves. Also%2C lately%2C Israel has been allowed to spend a greater portion of our aid on its own defense industries%2C which means we%92re basically helping to jump start the industries of a relatively rich country that%2C in time%2C will be our competitor. Furthermore%2C any aid we give to Israel means we have to match it with aid to Egypt at 66%25%2C so the two are inextricably linked. It%27s absurd to try to trivialize the %245 billion a year %28plus billions more worth of loans and loan guarantees%29 that U.S taxpayers are spending to support Israel.|44
57|6|I wasn%27t trivializing...|cantwealljustgetalong||03:52:51|01/25/2002|%0D%0AI was clarifying...%0D%0A5 for 1 vs. 3%2B2 for 2 - they are not the same thing %0D%0A%0D%0Asaying a good part of that aid is used to support our own defense industries is clearer than implying aid is unconditionally provided to Israel %0D%0A%0D%0Ahow much does the US spend to keep the rich Persian Gulf countries safe for oil interests%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AIs it %2430B per year%2C anyone have a number on that one%3F|56
63|7|Gulf|HAL10000||04:31:18|01/25/2002|Well%2C the US %5Bi%5Dmakes%5B%2Fi%5D a lot of money from the Gulf States.  Israel is a US investment to keep the Gulf States happy to provide their people with a kicking boy.  I still say once the US starts getting oil from other places than the Gulf%2C Israel will be thrown the the wolves.  The US %28and now the West%29 is a %22disposable%22 society addicted to convienience.  They%2Fnow we use stuff to get what they%2Fwe want then throw it away when it%27s no longer needed.  And I don%27t like it one bit...%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D--%0D%0A%0D%0Al8r%0D%0AWill%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww3.nb.sympatico.ca%2Fpwalker%2Fdom.jpg%5B%2Ffont%5D|57
65|8|Now|MikeGalos||05:58:53|01/25/2002|%5Bi%5DThey%2Fnow we use stuff to get what they%2Fwe want then throw it away when it%27s no longer needed%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AThis isn%27t anything new. In fact%2C it%27s probably been true for major powers as long as there have been any.|63
61|5|Yeah%2C like the Argentinian IMF bailout a couple months back before this crisis.  |HAL10000||04:27:53|01/25/2002|Money never even left New York.  Basically taxpayers giving money to the big banks.  Bankers can rot in Hell.  %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D--%0D%0A%0D%0Al8r%0D%0AWill%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww3.nb.sympatico.ca%2Fpwalker%2Fdom.jpg%5B%2Ffont%5D|44
46|3|A Small Correction Is Necessary|The Magistrate||23:06:16|01/24/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-02 AT 11:37 PM (ET)[/font][p]Mr. Green%2C in his proposal for a peaceful resolution of the conflict between Israel and Palestine %28contained in no. 4 above%29%2C has inadvertantly mis-stated my view%3A a physical seperation of the two peoples%2C by any %22iron curtain%22 style barrier%2C has never been proposed by me%2C nor does it strike me as a feasible thing%2C although there is no denying it has some political support within Israel. It is my view that the closest possible economic inter-twining of the two polities provides the most secure foundation possible%2C mutual interest%2C for a lasting peace.%0D%0A%0D%0AThis small mis-understanding aside%2C Sir%2C thank you very much for this information you have provided here%2C and for continuing discussion towards some possible agreement so effectively.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DOnce the Sage wrote%3A %22Because water seeks its level%2C the ocean rules ten thousand streams. Let the mighty bow low%2C and he shall rule ten thousand things.%22%5B%2Ffont%5D|4
31|2|It%27s quite simple.|HAL10000||17:24:04|01/24/2002|To ensure the PA is never viable so they can continue to claim the land%2C as a %22trust%22 you see because the Palestinians are murderous savages who need the Jews to guide them and prevent them from slaughtering one another.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D--%0D%0A%0D%0Al8r%0D%0AWill%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww3.nb.sympatico.ca%2Fpwalker%2Fdom.jpg%5B%2Ffont%5D|3
36|3|Of course|MikeGalos||17:43:36|01/24/2002|Nobody%27s actually said anything resembling that. But%2C apparently%2C you%27ve found it easier to counter imaginary postings that you make up yourself than to learn about the topic.|31
47|4|thanks%2C Mike...|cantwealljustgetalong||00:35:26|01/25/2002|%0D%0AI was beginning to wonder if it%27s me%2C and have I missed some nasty posts somewhere%2C or is it Hal just answering his own posts and basically talking to himself...|36
59|5|Well|MikeGalos||04:01:34|01/25/2002|you know he has the greatest confidence in the mission...%0D%0A%0D%0AWait till he starts singing %22A bicycle built for two%22%0D%0A|47
7|1|Yes%2C maps are fun|MikeGalos||02:55:28|01/24/2002|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.us-israel.org%2Fjsource%2Fimages%2Fottoman.gif%0D%0A%5Bb%5DOttoman Territory from 1516-1917%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0ANote the lack of %22Palestine%22%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.us-israel.org%2Fimages%2Fmandate1.gif%0D%0ANote the lack of an Arab state of %22Palestine%22%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.us-israel.org%2Fjsource%2Fimages%2Fmaps%2Fmandate2.gif%0D%0AStill no arab state of %22Palestine%22 but there%27s now an arab state of Transjordan where Jews are banned and the Jewish part is much smaller.%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.us-israel.org%2Fimages%2Funplan47.gif%0D%0AThe Jewish part is sliced up yet again and there%27s now room for another group of Arab states. Unfortunatly%2C the day this is implemented%2C six arab armies invade to stop this plan.%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.us-israel.org%2Fimages%2Fisrael49.gif%0D%0A%5Bb%5DIsrael%27s borders after the 1949 peace settlement%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0ANope%2C no Palestine here either. Looks like Jordan and Egypt decided they wanted the land for themselves..%0D%0A|0
9|2|Lebanon is also never mentioned in the maps.|HAL10000||05:28:25|01/24/2002|So we should just graft it back onto Syria because it didn%27t show up on any of your maps%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D--%0D%0A%0D%0Al8r%0D%0AWill%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww3.nb.sympatico.ca%2Fpwalker%2Fdom.jpg%5B%2Ffont%5D|7
21|3|I would like to know%3F|HAL10000||16:49:31|01/24/2002|Since Lebanon and Syria don%27t appear on those Turkish maps%2C and since Damascus was %22Jewish%2C%22 then shouldn%27t we just go in and expel those dirty Arabs and give it to the Jews%3F  %0D%0A%0D%0ALet%27s just turn the history of the region from 60 AD to May 1948 and just shred it like an Enron document like you want.  After all%2C Arabs aren%27t %5Bi%5Dreal%5B%2Fi%5D people are they and can%27t have a history%3F  They%27re just a bunch of racist childish murderous inferiors who call in to get autographed copies of the %22Protocols%22 and but were born to lie through their teeth.  %3C%2Fhyperbole%3E  Cheap shot indeed.  If they were that racist%2C they%27re be a lot more than just 130 Israelis dead in the last year and a half I%27ll tell you.  It%27s not %2Ahard%2A to get a gun and go on a rampaging shooting spree and it doesn%27t take any real intelligence to do so either.%0D%0A%0D%0AYou know it%27s like what Hillary Clinton said just after September 11.  She was the only senator I heard who stood up for Canada when others basically said Canada was %5Bi%5Dallowing%5B%2Fi%5D terrorists into the US.  She said these people went through US Customs.  Canada doesn%27t let people into the US.  The US does.  Same with Israel and the PA.  Maybe Israel should do the obvious.  Pull out their forces and concentrate on their OWN security and controlling their own ports of entry%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ANah.  Too much common sense.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D--%0D%0A%0D%0Al8r%0D%0AWill%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww3.nb.sympatico.ca%2Fpwalker%2Fdom.jpg%5B%2Ffont%5D|9
24|4|So you%27re suggesting|MikeGalos||17:04:48|01/24/2002|So you%27re suggesting that we give Syria%2C Iraq%2C Lebanon%2C Jordan and Israel back to Turkey%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AMight I suggest%2C then%2C that we return them in historical order. I%27m sure the Iraqis won%27t mind being part of Turkey again. After you convince them%2C you can work on the Syrians. After you convince them%2C you can work on Lebanon. After that%2C Jordan. Once you%27ve gotten all of those countries to abandon their governments and return back to Turkish rule%2C then we can talk about Israel.%0D%0A%0D%0AOr is it only Israel that bothers you%3F |21
27|3|That piece labeled LEBANON|MikeGalos||17:11:18|01/24/2002|is probably Lebanon.%0D%0A|9
33|4|But Lebanon doesn%27t show up on your old maps%3F|HAL10000||17:26:42|01/24/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-02 AT 05:27 PM (ET)[/font][p]Since Palestine isn%27t on those old maps and has no right to exist%2C then by the same logic%2C neither should Lebanon.  What%27s good for the goose is good for the gander.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D--%0D%0A%0D%0Al8r%0D%0AWill%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww3.nb.sympatico.ca%2Fpwalker%2Fdom.jpg%5B%2Ffont%5D|27
12|2|And here is my favorite map of all|Gussie||12:17:12|01/24/2002|A Palestinian map of Israel%2C with Israel missing.%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.palestine-net.com%2Fgeography%2Fgifs%2Fpalmap.gif|7
18|2|Looking at old maps......|rustydad||14:47:41|01/24/2002|....that show how the Brits and other colonials devided the third world might be %22fun%22 for some but have nothing to do with the reality of who lived%2C worked%2C and died on the land of their fathers and grandfathers before them. You might want to look at some of the old maps of the good ol USA before us white breads got here. Maps were a great way of appropriating to yourself someone elses land. The Zionist stole the land of Palestine and no amount of map twisting and BS will cover up that theft. Bob|7
19|3|So the State of Israel was outright theft%3F|Lurking Dem||14:51:53|01/24/2002|According to who%3F  The Palestinians%3F  But wait.  There WEREN%27T any Palestinians before the formation of Israel.  When Jordan and Egypt had the land it wasn%27t theft.  Only the %22Zionists%22 steal.%0D%0A%0D%0APeople who don%27t understand what this is simply don%27t WANT to.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bfont color%3Dblue%5D%5Bb%5DIn the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.%0D%0ADouglas Adams%5B%2Ffont color%5D%5B%2Fb%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D|18
22|4|Playing with words...|HAL10000||16:50:51|01/24/2002|The Brits referred to the locals as Palestinians...%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D--%0D%0A%0D%0Al8r%0D%0AWill%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww3.nb.sympatico.ca%2Fpwalker%2Fdom.jpg%5B%2Ffont%5D|19
26|5|So|MikeGalos||17:09:23|01/24/2002|you are arguing that what the British called people is the most valid claim to governmental status%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AI really don%27t follow that one. Maybe you can explain.%0D%0A|22
28|6|Yes%2C I consider it...|HAL10000||17:15:39|01/24/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-02 AT 05:20 PM (ET)[/font][p]more valid than the UN arbitrarily dividing up somene else%27s territory%2C using some maps that are based on some text written 2000-5000 years ago by a group of men who %2Aclaim%2A it%27s the word of some supernatural invisible father figure who annointed them superior to all others.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D--%0D%0A%0D%0Al8r%0D%0AWill%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww3.nb.sympatico.ca%2Fpwalker%2Fdom.jpg%5B%2Ffont%5D|26
29|7|Wow.|jem note||17:17:29|01/24/2002|When did any of this happen%3F|28
30|7|Well then|MikeGalos||17:20:25|01/24/2002|Since the British called it %22The Jewish Homeland%22 in official documents%2C I guess we%27re done with that.%0D%0A%0D%0AWelcome to the pro-Israel side.|28
32|7|The English%2C Sir%3F|The Magistrate||17:25:25|01/24/2002|The English called them wogs%2C and gippos%2C Sir.%0D%0A%0D%0AThey are all a species of Bedouin%2C whether Hebrew or no%2C except in old Philistia%2C which was Greek.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D|28
34|8|Whee%21|HAL10000||17:29:58|01/24/2002|The British did refer to them %22officially%22 as Palestinians.  However%2C as an old British %22colonial%22%2C I know the British had nice little pet names for their subjects.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D--%0D%0A%0D%0Al8r%0D%0AWill%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww3.nb.sympatico.ca%2Fpwalker%2Fdom.jpg%5B%2Ffont%5D|32
53|7|Hal%2C ya know what%27s even funkier...|cantwealljustgetalong||01:35:36|01/25/2002|%0D%0Athan some supernatural invisible father figure%3F%0D%0A%0D%0Ahe begat a son...%0D%0A|28
72|8|See why I don%27t like religon%3F|HAL10000||04:33:01|01/26/2002|Well%2C one of the reasons.  Sounds pretty absurd when you sit back and look at it.  Walking on water%3F  Parting the Red Sea%3F  Earth created in six days%3F  God spoke to you through an angel and told you to write his words down%3F  If any of these religons came out today%2C you%27d be locked up as a kook.  Sure the old texts have really nice timeless stories about everyday and not-so everyday problems.  Words of wisdom at best%2C like Shakespeare%2C but the word of God%3F  As Dr. Evil says%2C %22yeah%2C right...%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D--%0D%0A%0D%0Al8r%0D%0AWill%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww3.nb.sympatico.ca%2Fpwalker%2Fdom.jpg%5B%2Ffont%5D|53
37|5|The British called the Jews%2C Palestinians.|Gussie||18:29:46|01/24/2002|There was a Palestinian Brigade that fought in WWII with the British. It was composed of Jews from Palestine.%0D%0A%0D%0AThere were not any Arabs in the brigade because they had chosen to side with Hitler.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DIn A.D. 130%2C the Romans rebuilt Jerusalem as a pagan city with a temple to Jupiter where the Jewish temple had stood. Provoked to rebellion%2C about 500%2C000 Jews were killed and thousands sold into slavery. The Romans angrily renamed Israel %22Syria Palaestina.%22 Jews living there became known as Palestinians. %0D%0A%0D%0ADuring World War II%2C the British Army had a Palestinian Brigade made up entirely of Jewish volunteers. The Palestinian Symphony Orchestra was all Jewish%2C and The Palestine Post was a Jewish newspaper. In 1948%2C Arabs who had fled from Israel %28attacking Arab nations had broadcast%2C %22All Arabs get out%22%29 began to claim they were the true Palestinians and that the land of Israel had always belonged to them. World media eagerly promotes that lie. Yet in 1948%2C Arabs owned a mere 3 percent of so-called Palestine.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.seghea.com%2Femails%2Ffarce.html|22
45|6|the Jews were the Palestinians...|cantwealljustgetalong||23:00:11|01/24/2002|%0D%0Aand the Arabs were the.............Arabs%0D%0A%0D%0Athen the Jews became the Israelis%0D%0A%0D%0Aand the Arabs became the..........Palestinians|37
23|4|sure it was.......|rustydad||17:03:44|01/24/2002|.....in the late 40s the Zionists pulled off a couple of massacres of whole villages and so frightened the local inhabitants %28call them what you like-I refer to the people living on the land%29 that they fled by the hundreds of thousands. Many returned after the fighting diminished to find Jews now %22owned%22 their land%2C orchards and homes. If this history is not to your liking I%27m sorry. We all no doubt hold dearly to our schema%27s but real scholars of history do in fact agree that the Jews of Israel stole much of the land and possessions of the indigenous people of that land%2C call them what you like. Bob|19
25|5|Maybe |MikeGalos||17:08:26|01/24/2002|once again%2C you%27d like to actually research what you%27re talking about%3F There are a lot of histories of the area that you could read. It might actually give you facts to base your arguments on.%0D%0A|23
38|6|Well Mr. Galos......|rustydad||19:33:56|01/24/2002|...perhaps you should read some history. Specifically the history of the village Deir Yassin and what happened there on April 9%2C 1948 and what the Irgun did there. Bob|25
40|7|I know lots|MikeGalos||20:06:58|01/24/2002|about Deir Yassin. It gets brought up a lot since it is the standard alleged atrocity that always gets brought up. And while it was a tragic battle with awful loss of civilian life%2C that%27s about all you got right.%0D%0A%0D%0AFor example%2C how is Deir Yassin a %22couple of massacres of whole villages%22%3F First off%2C it is one village%2C secondly the local arab sources say there were 110 casualties of the battle out of a population of 1%2C100. %28A bad thing but not a massacre of a whole village%29. The Red Cross inspected the battle and didn%27t call it a massacre%2C nor did the New York Times. The Bir Zeit University study based on interviewing families of survivors said%2C 107 dead%2C 12 wounded plus 13 soldiers not from the area %28There were Iraqi forces in Deir Yassin at the time. Another detail that doesn%27t get mentioned. As is the fact that the Lehi was evacuating civilians from the village during the battle to safety in Sheikh Badar.%29%0D%0A%0D%0AAs for it being the cause of flight. That was done totally by the Arab leadership who had exagerated reports of murder%2C rape and pillage broadcast on Palestine Broadcasting Service to embarass the Jews. The plan backfired and villagers around the country fled despite the Jewish leadership%27s pleas for them to stay and work with the pending Israeli government. This plan and its backfire was documented by the broadcaster%2C Hazam Nusseibi%2C to the BBC 50 years later.%0D%0A%0D%0AAs for the rest of the post%2C it was completely wrong. Again%2C look up some history.|38
42|7|Deir Yassin - the Irgun%27s account|IndianaGreen||22:45:07|01/24/2002|Deir Yassin was a pogrom%2C an ethnic cleansing. Here is the Irgun%27s own account%3A%0D%0A%0D%0ARaanan%2C Commander of the Irgun in Jerusalem%2C opened the meeting and explained that the conquest of Deir Yassin had both military and political objectives. From the military viewpoint%2C the aim was not only to liberate the western quarters of Jerusalem from the threat of Deir Yassin%2C but finally to seize the initiative. It was essential to move from defence to attack and to transfer the fighting to enemy territory. The conquest would also raise the morale of the Jewish population of Jerusalem and restore their self-confidence. %0D%0A%0D%0APolitically speaking%2C it would represent a change of approach and constitute a turning point in the war%3A no further retaliation operations%2C but from that point on conquest with the aim of holding on to an area. The Jewish people and the entire world would realize that the Jews were not going to give up Jerusalem and%2C if necessary%2C would take it by force. %28It will be recalled that%2C according to the UN resolution%2C Jerusalem was to come under international rule%29. Raanan added that since the operation was an act of conquest and not of reprisal%2C the fighters had to avoid inflicting needless injury on Arabs. In particular%2C he cautioned against harming old people%2C women and children. Moreover%2C any Arab who surrendered%2C including combatants%2C was to be taken prisoner and not harmed in any way. %0D%0A%0D%0AIn order to prevent unnecessary casualties%2C it had been decided that the strike force would be preceded by an armored car equipped with a loudspeaker%2C which would enter the village ahead of the troops. The villagers would be informed that the village was surrounded by Irgun and Lehi fighters%2C and would be exhorted to leave for Ein Karem or to surrender. They would also be informed that the road to Ein Karem was open and safe. %0D%0A%0D%0AAt 2 a.m. the Irgun fighters%2C commanded by Ben-Zion Cohen %28Giora%29%2C were driven from the Etz Hayim base to Bet Hakerem. The force moved into the wadi %28riverbed%29%2C where the squads split up%2C each squad climbing up the terraced slope to its allotted field of action. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe Lehi unit assembled at Givat Shaul and proceeded from there towards the target. Some of the force advanced behind the armored car which was proceeding along the path towards the center of the village. %0D%0A%0D%0AClose to 4%3A45 am%2C the village guards spotted suspicious movements. One of them called out in Arabic%3A %27Mahmoud%27%3B an Irgun fighter%2C mishearing the cry%2C thought that someone had shouted the password %27Ahdut%27 %28Solidarity%29 and responded with the second half of the password in Hebrew%3A %27Lohemet%27. The Arabs opened fire and shooting commenced from all sides. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe armored car advanced along the path and%2C on reaching the outskirts of the village%2C encountered a trench and was forced to come to a halt. The loudspeaker was switched on and the message was read out. Heavy fire was directed at the armored car from the adjacent houses and the fighters trapped inside had to be rescued. Injuries were reported%2C and a first-aid unit set out from Givat Shaul towards the armored car. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe other units began their attack%2C but Arab resistance was strong%2C and every house became an armed fortress. Fierce fighting was conducted from house to house. Many of the attackers were injured in the first onslaught%2C including a number of commanders who had been advancing ahead of their units. %0D%0A%0D%0AAfter the center of the village had been occupied%2C all the wounded were concentrated in one of the courtyards and ways were sought to evacuate them. It turned out that the road to Givat Shaul was impassable because of gunfire from the mukhtar%27s %28local leader%29 house%2C which stood on a hilltop overlooking the area. %0D%0A%0D%0ASince the fighting was taking place in a built-up area%2C the pace was slow%2C and both sides suffered heavy losses. In order to silence the source of gunfire%2C the fighters were forced to use hand-grenades%2C and in some cases even to blow up houses. There was firing from all sides and half the attackers were put out of action. On top of this%2C the remaining fighters suffered a shortage of ammunition. %0D%0A%0D%0AA report on the course of the battle was transmitted by courier to headquarters at Givat Shaul. When word started coming in about the number of casualties and ammunition shortage%2C several Lehi people went to the Schneller camp and asked a Palmach unit to come to the attackers aid. After receiving the consent of the brigade HQ%2C the Palmach troops set out in an armored car%2C equipped with a machine-gun and a two-inch mortar. On arrival in the village%2C they fired several shells and machine-gun rounds at the mukhtar%27s house. At that very moment%2C without prior co-ordination with the Palmach%2C Yosef Avni charged and captured the mukhtar%27s house. With the mukhtar%27s house occupied%2C firing ceased and the occupation of the village was completed. %0D%0A%0D%0AWhen the fighting was over%2C it was discovered that hundreds of villagers had retreated to Ein Karem%2C taking advantage of the fact that the road was open. Those who remained in the village surrendered and were taken prisoner. The prisoners%2C mostly women and children%2C were loaded onto trucks and taken to East Jerusalem%2C where they were handed over to their Arab brethren.%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.etzel.org.il%2Fpictures%2Fdiryasin.jpg%0D%0ADeir Yassin - The Village After the Attack  %0D%0A%0D%0AWord of the occupation of Deir Yassin spread through the city%2C and was viewed positively by the Jews of Jerusalem. Not only could the Jewish residents of the western quarters now breath freely%2C but they felt proud to have finally taken the initiative. The capture of the village marked the completion of the breakthrough of Operation Nachshon%2C and instilled new hope in the hearts of Jerusalemites. The slogan %27Ahdut Lohemet%27%2C which had grabbed the attention of the Jewish community in Jerusalem%2C reflected the turning point in the response to Arab aggression. In the days that followed%2C crowds flocked to the Etz Hayim base to express their solidarity with the Irgun fighters. %0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.etzel.org.il%2Fenglish%2Findex.html|38
43|7|Deir Yassin - Arabs and Jews unite to commemorate massacre|IndianaGreen||22:45:14|01/24/2002|%5Bb%5DArabs and Jews unite to commemorate massacre%0D%0ABy Robert Fisk%2C Middle East Correspondent%0D%0A15 March 2001%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AAs the Palestinian-Israeli war continues to grow ever bloodier%2C a group of British Jews and Arabs in London is to commemorate the Israeli massacre of Arab men%2C women and children at Deir Yassin in 1948%2C the slaughter that contributed more than any others to the mass depopulation of Palestinians from their land at the time of the founding of the Israeli state.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3Csnip%3E%0D%0A%0D%0ABut Rabbis Rayner and Jeffrey believe that acknowledgement of the cold-blooded killing of Arab men%2C women and children will %22contribute towards a future in which Jews and Palestinians live together%22. One supporter of the commemoration has compared a British-based Likud party official%2C Colin Leci%2C with deniers of the Jewish Holocaust for saying the Deir Yassin massacre never happened.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe facts of the slaughter were never denied at the time. The Arab village of Deir Yassin was attacked by Jewish commandos of the Stern Gang and Irgun%2C then led by Menachem Begin%2C on 9 April 1948%3B after its capture%2C they murdered more than 100 - perhaps as many as 254 - men%2C women and children. Some women were butchered with knives%2C others were shot with their children.%0D%0A%0D%0AOfficial Zionist leaders of the Haganah denounced the killings. Several victims lived an hour longer than their families as they were taken by truck through the streets of Jeru-salem%2C then returned to the quarry outside Deir Yassin where they were killed and their bodies burnt by Jewish gang members.%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fstory.jsp%3Fstory%3D60694%0D%0A|38
54|8|what really happened%3F...|cantwealljustgetalong||02:19:52|01/25/2002|%0D%0A%3Ashrug%3A%0D%0A%0D%0ANew facts behind Deir Yassin%3A The witness who was not there. %0D%0A%0D%0A%3Csnip%3E%0D%0A%0D%0AOn April 9%2C 1998%2C the DEIR YASSIN MEMORIAL COMMITTEE organized vigils throughout the world on the day that marks 50 years to the day when Arab civilians were killed in the Jerusalem Arab neighborhood that is known as Deir Yassin. %0D%0A%0D%0AUntil recently%2C the commonly held assumption amongst Jews and Arabs alike was that Jewish underground fighters had rounded up Deir Yassin%27s Arab civilians after the battle for control of the village and that they shot them in a ditch. To deny that a massacre ever took place at Deir Yassin would be like an American forgetting the Maine or forgiving the Alamo. %0D%0A%0D%0AYet what has now emerged is that the one eyewitness who gave credibility to the account of a massacre%2C the Haganah intelligene officer%2C Meir Pe%27il%2C submitted an entirely different report back in 1948 that has only recently been discovered and authenticated in the archives of the Israel Defense Forces. %0D%0A%0D%0AIn that report%2C Pe%27il writes that he arrived at Deir Yassin at 4PM on the day of the event%2C many hours AFTER the battle that had raged at dawn. In his report%2C Pe%27il described the dead strewn in the village%2C the bodies in the houses which had been used as defensive outposts by Arab gunmen%2C and no mention of any massacre. Pe%27il%27s massacre story began only the next day%2C after an Irgun fighter on the scene called together foreign correspondents and greatly exaggerated the amount of civilian casualties - to 254%2C instead of the estimated 100%2C to frighten the Arabs everywhere%2C as the fighter put it. %0D%0A%0D%0APe%27il picked up on this figure and simply added his own footnote days later%2C adding that the Arab civilans who survived the battle were machine-gunned to death by the dissident Jewish groups%2C known as the Stern and the Irgun organizations. Pe%27il%2C who was then in charge of a division of Haganah counterintelligence that engaged in a power struggle with the Stern and Irgun units%2C effectively spread the rumor that the Stern and Irgun groups had indeed massacred the remaining civilians from Deir Yassin. %0D%0A%0D%0APe%27il%27s word was taken as the gospel in almost all Zionist and Arab accounts of the 1948 war... Pe%27il%2C who later rose to the rank of colonel in the Israel Defence Forces%2C went on to become a military historian and founder of a member of a small left wing faction in Israel%27s Knesset%2C would not comment on recent revelations which demonstrate that he was not an eyewitness to an event at Deir Yassin. %0D%0A%0D%0AYet as recently as December 1996%2C Pe%27il addressed the Deir Yassin Memorial committee and described in graphic detail how he had seen the Jewish troops from Stern and Irgun drag out the Arab civilians from Deir Yassin to be executed... %0D%0A%0D%0AYet in the early days of the Palestinian Arab uprising in 1987 and 1988%2C the new communications wing of the PLO decided not to emphasize the issue of Deir Yassin. As one prominent PLO media expert put it then%2C the Deir Yassin account was too loaded with problems and not clear enough. That is why the PLO%2C at the height of the Intifada in the Spring of 1988%2C decided not to organize any ceremony to mark forty years to Deir Yassin. One Palestinian professor Beir Zeit University near Ramallah%2C said at the time that there was no proof of the amount of casualties and no real witnesses that he could find to the massacre. And as recently as January%2C 1998%2C Beir Zeit University issued a definitive report in which it published the names of the civilians who died at Deir Yassin%2C demonstrating that there were about than 100 civilians who died there%2C not 254. %0D%0A%0D%0AAnd in the BBC television series%2C %22Israel and the Arabs%3A the 50-Year Conflict%2C%22 scheduled to air next month%2C an editor of the Palestine Broadcasting Service%27s Arabic news in 1948 claims that he was instructed by Hussein Khalidi%2C the secretary of the Arab High Command%2C to exaggerate abuses at Deir Yassin and to claim that children were wantonly executed and that pregnant women were raped. %0D%0A%0D%0AAnother reason why the PLO did not push the issue of Deir Yassin was because a prominent elder statesman of the Israel Labor Party%2C the eloquent former Foreign Minister Abba Eban%2C who openly expressed sympathy for the aspirations of Palestinian Arabs for a state of their own%2C was quick to point out to his Palestinian colleagues that when he was indeed the foreign minister back in 1969 that his office had published a study that challenged the veracity of any massacre at Deir Yassin%2C %0D%0A%0D%0AMeanwhile%2C both Morton Klein of the Zionist Organization of America and Daniel McGowan head of the%22Deir Yassin Remembered%22 committee%2C both of which are based in New York%2C each point out%2C each from their own point of view%2C that more than one hundred and sixty books that describe Zionist history had given credence to the account first reported by Meir Pe%27il that Jews had simply murdered Arab civilians%2C following the battle. %0D%0A%0D%0AYet none of these histories of 1948 mention primary sources - Only a commonly accepted assumption that a massacre at Deir Yassin had took place. A massacre did take indeed take place%2C following the events in Deir Yassin%2C which had occurred on Friday morning April 9%2C 1948. On Monday morning%2C April 13%2C 1948%2C an Arab mob%2C chanting %22Deir Yassin%22%2C massacred a bus convoy of Jewish doctors and nurses who were headed to Hadassah hospital on Mount Scopus in Jerusalem. 78 of Hadassah%27s medical personnel were murdered. Only recently was it revealed that some of the Hadassah nurses had found refuge in the nearby compound of the British consul%2C only to be turned over to Arabs who proceeded to slaughter them in revenge for what they thought had occurred at Deir Yassin. %0D%0A%0D%0ABoth sides used the symbol of %22Remember Deir Yassin%22 in 1948. There were Jews who intimidated Arabs with the slogan and their were Arab commanders who rallied their populace with the same adage. Meanwhile%2C what has fanned the flames of Deir Yassin has been the United Nations decision to confine more than three million Palestinian Arabs to refugee camps%2C under the premise and promise of the %22right of return%22 to Arab villages that no longer exist. %0D%0A%0D%0AUN Resolution %23194 on the subject of Arab refugees%2C reaffirmed each year%2C does not allow for any possibility of compensation for Arab refugees%2C only for the right of return. As the principal of one of the UNRWA Arab refugee camps declared in March 1998 on a news program of the Palestine Authority%27s Palestine Broadcasting Corporation%2C %22Deir Yassin and the right of return are on the lips of every Palestinian Arab schoolchild to this day%22. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe massacre at Deir Yassin may not have happened. Yet its legacy lives on. - As a media research analyst and bureau chief of a Jerusalem-based news agency%2C I am pleased to offer you the opportunity to peruse this timely essay concerning a Middle East subject that became an American issue this year. %0D%0A%0D%0A%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D%3D %0D%0A%0D%0ADavid Bedein%2C MSW is the Media Research Analyst Bureau Chief %3A ISRAEL RESOURCE NEWS AGENCY%2C Beit Agron International Press Center%2C Jerusalem%2C Israel. %0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fradiobergen.org%2Fhistory%2Fdeir-6.html%0D%0A%0D%0A %0D%0A|43
55|9|other sources...|cantwealljustgetalong||02:25:36|01/25/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-02 AT 02:33 AM (ET)[/font][p]%0D%0A%3Ashrug%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A...detailed research by Uri Milstein...proves quite convincingly that the %22Massacre%22 in DY was a fiction of the Hagana in order to smear the Irgun %26 Lehi. The Number of 254 of killed is  fiction which was very convenient to everyone %28Hagana%2C Irgun%2CArabs %5Bto perpetrate anger and unite the Arabs%5D and British%5D. The real number is estimated at 110. %0D%0A%0D%0AMost of the horror stories were fabricated by a Hagana officer Meir Pail which was not at the scene%2C but tried to manufacture a horrid version of the story. %5BHe was one of the most vigoros anti-Irgun officers and did nothing to hide it%5D. %0D%0A%0D%0AAll this information and a lot more %5Babout Palmach%27s part in the conquest of the village and the lack of any evidence for sexual abuse in the bodies by the Hagana and Red Cross although Pail claimed that he saw sexual abuse%5D can be read in Milstein%27s  book%3A %0D%0A%0D%0A%22History of the Independence War Volume 4%3A From Crisis came Decision%22 by Uri Milstein.%0D%0A%0D%0AA newpaper article %22There was no Massacre there%22 by Yerach Tal Ha%27Aretz 8.9.91 Page B3 reviews the Milstein research.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnother article which views the Arab side %22Massacre was done there%22 by Dani Rubinstein Ha%27Aretz 11.9.91 Page B2 states that in a new Bir-Zeit research of the affair the number of killed was estimated at 107. %0D%0A%0D%0AAll these sources had vested interest in exasgerating the truth. Irgun%3A To frighten the Arabs. Hagana%3A To frighten the Arabs%2C to throw mud on the Irgun. British%3A To throw mud on the Jews %28and praticularly Irgun%29. Arabs%3A to unify and envigorate Arab anger against the Jews and indeed this resulted in the Hadassa masscare of 78 Jewish doctors and nurses. This also created a by-product effect not desired by Arabs of enormous fear from the Jews. %0D%0A|54
49|5|can we have the names of any of  these real scholars of history...|cantwealljustgetalong||00:43:25|01/25/2002|%0D%0Athat you are %22quoting%22%3F|23
41|4|please read|EdGy||21:39:22|01/24/2002|Benny Morris%27s books%2C based on Israeli archives|19
51|5|Benny Morris fans...|cantwealljustgetalong||01:22:37|01/25/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-02 AT 06:10 PM (ET)[/font][p]   %0D%0ASpecial Dispatch 310 %96 Israel  December 9%2C 2001  %0D%0A%22The Arabs Are Responsible%22. Post-Zionist Historian Benny Morris Clarifies His Thesis %0D%0AFor the past two decades%2C Benny Morris %96 a prominent Israeli and international academic%2C and a leading figure in Israel%27s Post-Zionism camp %96 has been advocating the notion that Israel%27s official version of history is filled with misconceptions and misleading myths. However%2C in a surprising recent interview%2C Morris now argues that others have misconstrued his thesis. He argues that the Palestinians%2C not Israel%2C are to blame for the ongoing conflict and for the current state of affairs. %0D%0A%0D%0AIn an interview with Yediot Ahronot%2C Morris clarified his positions regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict %28this interview followed a September 2001 lecture at UC Berkley%27s Theological Institute in which Morris first articulated these positions%29. Following are excerpts from the article which included an interview with Morris%281%29 %0D%0A%0D%0A%22The audience at UC Berkley%27s Theological Institute thought it knew what they were in for. They were promised a lecture on the peace process by Professor Benny Morris %96 an Israeli historian%2C well-known leftist%2C who had a hard time finding a niche in Israel%27s academia due to his extreme opinions%2C which reject %28Israel%27s%29 official Zionist history. Berkley is still the stronghold of America%27s radical left %28and%29 all the listeners who filled the lecture hall were sure that the lecturer would say exactly what they wanted to hear%3A that Israel is to blame for everything%2C that Israel is the aggressor and the evil perpetrator%2C that the Palestinians are the good guys%85%22 %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Morris had different plans. He knew exactly what was in store for his audience%3A a surprise%2C a big surprise. %28In the lecture%29he told them that the Palestinians have been obstinately refusing to accept any compromise since the 1930%27s. They refused to accept the 1937 Partition Plan of the Peel Commission %28a Jewish State on 20%25 of the Sharon and Galilee regions of territorial Palestine%29%2C they rejected the 1947 UN partition plan %28an Arab state on 40%25 of the territory%29%2C they did not even want to hear about Sadat and Begin%27s %281979%29Autonomy Plan %28which was a part of the Camp David Accord and which was never implemented%29%2C and they rejected Bill Clinton%27s generous offer %28which included 95%25 of the West Bank%29. To make a long story short%2C %28Morris said that%29the Jews always agreed %5Bto various compromise offers%5D whereas the Arabs always refused to accept them%2C and the blame falls squarely on the Palestinians. They have been making historic mistakes for seventy years now%2C and there is a price for historic mistakes%85%22 %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Yes%2C the Palestinians are to blame. And this is true not only because they rejected Ehud Barak%27s generous offer but also because they are unwilling to come to terms with Israel%27s existence here. They want to throw %5Bthe Jews%5D into the ocean%2C and anyone who holds a different opinion is mistaken. These are the words of the Historian.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AWere The Palestinians Forced to Leave%3F%0D%0A%22One has to go back in time thirteen years in order to understand how surprising %28Morris%27%29 statements are. Morris %96 a Jerusalem Post reporter at the time%2C a Cambridge University Ph.D%2C and a Kibbutz and %28Israeli Defense Force%29Paratroopers veteran %96 published his book The Birth of The Palestinian Refugee Problem in 1988. His book created an immediate outburst %5Bof an acute debate in Israel%5D.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Up until then%2C it was generally assumed that 700%2C000 Palestinians left their homes voluntarily during the 1948 War of Independence%2C following promises by their leaders that they will be able to return and plunder Jewish property when the war was over. According to what Morris wrote in his 1988 book%2C that never happened%3B these stories are nonsense. The leaders of the Yishuv %28the Jewish Zionist community in pre-state Israel%29believed in a transfer%2C and in their actions contributed much to the fleeing of the refugees. Some ran away to escape the battles%2C others left after the Jews made their lifes difficult%2C and still others were simply expelled. %28According to Morris%27 1988 book%29%2C the Palestinians did not leave and did not run away%2C these words are too soft. They were also not expelled %96 that word is too harsh. The Palestinians %22were driven out.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0A%3Csnip%3E%0D%0A%0D%0A%22In the heart of every Palestinian exists a desire that the State of Israel will not be here anymore.%22%0D%0A%22%28Morris%29 is denying that his views have shifted. He claims that this was his opinion all along. However%2C no one knew it. Even when he expressed his opinion%2C the interviewers preferred not to quote him on that. %27It is not politically correct%2C%27 he says. Nevertheless%2C he admits%2C he has a lot of built up anger over the past two years against the Palestinians since they rejected Clinton%27s proposal. He says that Barak also made mistakes but that these were marginal. The bottom line is that Barak accepted Clinton%27s generous proposal which demanded %28of him%29to give up 95%25 of the West Bank%2C 100%25 of Gaza%2C and to divide Jerusalem.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0A%22By the way%2C with regards to Jerusalem%2C Morris disagrees with Barak. Morris would not be willing to give up the Temple Mount.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AMorris%3A %22If there is a nation that deserves the title to the Temple Mount it is we. But injustice was perpetrated and two mosques were erected on the ruins of the %28Jewish%29Temple 1%2C400 years ago%2C and %5Bnow%5D the Arabs %5Balso%5D have a claim to the Temple Mount. I accept a compromise in which both Jews and Arabs will control the Temple Mount. But why should the Palestinians have sole control over there%3F Why%3F What kind of justice is that%3F%22 %0D%0A%0D%0A%22In any case%2C everything shrinks when compared with Yasser Arafat%27s mistake %28when he%29 rejected the Clinton proposal. %22Both people %96Israelis and Palestinians - are paying with their lives for %28the Palestinian%29 mistakes%22 Morris says%85%22 %0D%0A%0D%0A%22In Camp David and Taba the issue of the %27right of return%27 emerged%3B it was prominent %5Bin the discussions%5D. The Israelis claimed that the Palestinian demand to allow millions of refugees to return into Israel destroys any possibility for peace%2C since this demand translates into the destruction of the state of the Jews. The Palestinian spokespersons tried to downplay the gravity of the dispute. Publicly they continued to demand the %27right of return%2C%27 while at the same time they were hinting %28to the Israelis%29 that it would be possible to reach an agreement on this issue. In his book A Guide for the Wounded Dove%2C Yossi Beilin %96 who headed the Taba negotiation team in charge of the refugee issue %96 claims that he reached satisfactory agreements on this issue with the Palestinians.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Morris%2C the one who brought this issue to public awareness%2C is very determined regarding this question. %28He believes that%29 any mentioning of the right of return is a disaster%2C a recipe for the destruction of the State of Israel. Even if Arafat will agree that Israel will only recognize its responsibility in creating the refugee problem while the Palestinians give up the actual right to implement it%2C Israel must still object to such a proposal.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AMorris%3A %22If you recognize the responsibility%2C millions will demand their lands in return immediately thereafter. If the notion of the right of return will be recognized%2C there is also going to be an attempt to utilize that notion%2C and that will be the end of the State of Israel. %28If that happens%29%2C there won%27t be a Jewish State here.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AYediot Aharonot %28Y.A.%29%3A %22In Taba it was proposed that Israel would recognize its responsibility in creating the refugee problem%2C but that the refugees will not be absorbed in Israel%2C except for a very small number on which Israel will decide. Do you think that this is also a bad idea%3F%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AMorris%3A %22The Palestinians told Beilin that they are willing to consider all kinds of formulas regarding refugees%2C but they lied to him. They will never back away from %28the demand for%29 the right of return. They cannot come to their people in the refugee camps and tell them%3A %27We gave in on the right of return.%27 They are unable to do this.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AY.A.%3A %22%28But%29 Sari Nusaiba%2C head of the PA office of Jerusalem Affairs said it himself.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AMorris%3A %22He is an exception. His statements are putting his life in danger. He is not one of the first rank senior leadership. I never heard Mohammad Dakhlan%2C Jibril Rajoub%2C or Abu Ala and their guys saying this. Even if they will sign on such a text at one stage or another%2C a new generation will emerge in ten or twenty years and will argue that they had no right to give up %28the right of return%29.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AY.A.%3A %22You are the man who revealed to the Israelis that they have responsibility for the refugee problem. Are you asking them to ignore what you revealed to them%3F%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AMorris%3A %22I revealed to the Israelis the truth of what happened in 1948%2C the historic facts. But the Arabs are the ones who started the fighting%2C they started the shootings. So why should I take responsibility%3F The Arabs started the war%2C they are responsible.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AY.A.%3A %22Should we ignore this issue in a permanent agreement%3F%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AMorris%3A %22We need to give some kind of a solution to the Palestinians but we must not recognize the right of return. Arafat and his generation cannot give up on the vision of the greater land of Israel for the Arabs. %5BThis is true%2C because%5D this is a holy land%2C Dar-al Islam. It was once in the hands of the Muslims%2C and its inconceivable %28to them%29 that infidels like us would receive it. And besides%2C even if Arafat will sign an agreement%2C I find it hard to believe%2C in view of his behavior during the last two years%2C that he or his heirs will abide by it.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AY.A.%3A %22Is that because they are Arabs%3F%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AMorris%3A %22Not because they are Arabs%2C but rather because they don%27t understand that justice exists on the other side as well. We do understand that justice exists on the other side. Have you ever heard a senior Palestinian official who says that the Jewish demand for the State of Israel is justified%3F I have never heard that being said%85%22 %0D%0A%0D%0A%22We will not reach a compromise in this generation%2C and I have a sneaking suspicion that we will never reach a true and permanent agreement. In the heart of every Palestinian exists a desire that the State of Israel will not be here anymore. For many of them this translates into more than just a desire. As far as they are concerned%2C all of their misfortunes are a consequence of our deeds%2C and our destruction will bring about their salvation. Their salvation is the whole of Palestine.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AY.A.%3A %22Do they not understand the reality%3F Do they not understand that they absorb all these blows as a consequence of their unwillingness to compromise%3F%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AMorris%3A %22Every nation has its own particular way to understand reality%2C and their reality is very fluid. They feel that demographics will defeat the Jews in one hundred or two hundred yeas%2C just like the Crusaders. Or %5Bthe Palestinians are hoping that%5D the Arabs will have nuclear weapons. Why should they accept a compromise that is perceived by them as unjust today%3F%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AY.A.%3A %22And when you hear Palestinian leaders%2C like Abu Mazen and others%2C who say that they are willing to accept Israel%2C and living alongside it%2C do you not believe them%3F%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AMorris%3A %22Not really. I do believe them when they cheer for bin Laden%85%22 %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A--------------------------------------------------------------------------------%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B1%5D Yediot Ahronot%2C November 23%2C 2001. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.memri.org%2Fsd%2FSP31001.html%0D%0A %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A|41
66|5|Read his books|EdGy||09:39:21|01/25/2002|have you actually read his books%3F Forget about how anyone else has interpreted them%2C read them yourself.%0D%0A%0D%0AHe is a solid historian%2C Israeli and zionist%2C and the books speak for themselves regardless of the backpeddling he is doing in this article you cite%2C which of course is taking place in a very particular political context.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem%22 is a good place to begin.%0D%0A%0D%0AYou know%2C I don%27t think anyone in the US who is honest would deny that in the course of US history the US government%2C in our name%2C has done some pretty bad things.%0D%0A%0D%0AThis is true of any state.%0D%0A%0D%0ACan we be honest and admit that various governments of Israel have likewise done things that are not in line with liberal%2C progressive values and ideals of the left in Israel or elsewhere%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd please don%27t deflect the question by using the right-wing strategy of pointing to the evil enemy.  That%27s exactly what right-wingers in this country did to anyone who criticized US foreign policy after 9%2F11.  %0D%0A%0D%0ALikewise%2C denying the humanity of the non-Jewish population of Palestine does not seem to be consistent with the values of DU.|41
20|3|Brits and other colonials |MikeGalos||15:07:40|01/24/2002|Of course%2C you meant to include the Turkish%2C right%3F After all%2C they had the land for about 600 years. And%2C of course%2C you meant to mention that the Israelis bought most of their land from the owners.%0D%0A|18
39|4|Please read more.....|rustydad||19:48:18|01/24/2002|...history Mr. Galos. Virtually all of the properties of fleeing Palestinians was appropriated by Jewish settlers or the army. Reparations were few if any. True%2C prior to the partition some 15%25 of Palestine was bought by immigrant Jews. Not so during and after the great flight. In the Israeli paper Haaretz an article stated %22Every piece of land which had been abandoned for any reason whatsoever-whether in the whirl of war%2C or during the truces%2C or soon after the Israeli occupation-was at once seized by the nearby %28Jewish%29 settlement or settlements and attached to their estates.%22%0D%0A%0D%0APerhaps you might enlighten me as to how much the legitimate owners of property taken by the Jews during and after the spring of 1948 were compensated. How much%2C to whom%2C and when Mr. Galos. Bob|20
50|5|they were compensated...|cantwealljustgetalong||01:00:00|01/25/2002|%0D%0Aas much as the Jews that fled from the Arab countries to Israel...|39
60|5|Land|MikeGalos||04:09:11|01/25/2002|Of course you realize that almost no land %2815%25 seems about right%29 was bought by immigrants. Almost all was bought by the Jewish National Fund %28JNF%29. You also realize%2C of course%2C that almost no land in Israel is privately owned. It%27s almost all leased from the JNF%27s descendant office. And%2C of course%2C you%27re aware that almost all the land prior to 1948 was held by absentee landlords and most of the residents were tenant farmers with no land.%0D%0A|39
48|3|did they also steal the land...|cantwealljustgetalong||00:39:48|01/25/2002|%0D%0Athat they already owned or that they bought%3F|18
11|1|Since we%27re all posting maps today%2C|jem note||09:58:16|01/24/2002|here%27s another one.%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.netaxs.com%2F%7Eiris%2Fmaine.gif%0D%0A %0D%0A %0D%0A|0
13|1|Here%27s some maps to consider|Redstar||13:53:57|01/24/2002|%5Bh5%5DDist. of Populations%2C by subdistrict- with percentages of Jews and Palestinians.%5B%2Fh5%5D %0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fakzzen.i8.com%2FMap_DistributionOfPopulations1946.jpg%0D%0A%5Bh5%5DUN Partition Recommendations%2C 29 Nov 1947%5B%2Fh5%5D%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fakzzen.i8.com%2FMap_UN_Partition_Recommendation29Nov1947.jpg%0D%0A%5Bh5%5DZionist Military Operations 1 April 1948 to 15 May 1948%5B%2Fh5%5D%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fakzzen.i8.com%2FMap_Zionist_Military_Operations15May1948.jpg%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5De m a n c i p a t e y o u r s e l f f r o m m e n t a l s l a v e r y%5B%2Ffont%5D|0
14|2|How about|MikeGalos||14:02:42|01/24/2002|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.us-israel.org%2Fjsource%2Fimages%2Finvade.jpg%0D%0A%5Bb%5DOn May 14%2C 1948%2C the day Israel declared its independence%2C the armies of Lebanon%2C Syria%2C Jordan%2C Egypt%2C Saudi Arabia and Iraq invaded the tiny new country with the declared intent of destroying it.%5B%2Fb%5D|13
15|1|Hmmm... Gussie%27s favorite map is also Arafat%27s favorite map.|jem note||14:09:29|01/24/2002|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-02 AT 02:11 PM (ET)[/font][p]That%27s why he and the PLO wear it on the sleeve of their uniforms%2C and use it on their official emblem. It%27s probably not Arafat%27s fault%2C though%3B someone must have forgotten to tell him.|0
16|2|I%27m sure they%27ll change it|MikeGalos||14:17:19|01/24/2002|right after they get the %22our goal is the removal of Israel by a strategy of violence%22 text out of their charter just like Arafat promised back in 1993 and 1995 and 1998 and 1999.%0D%0A|15
17|1|Or more accurately|MikeGalos||14:42:39|01/24/2002|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.us-israel.org%2Fjsource%2Fimages%2Fmaps%2Foslo2000.gif%0D%0A%0D%0ANotice in particular%3A%0D%0AArea C - %5Bb%5DStill to be Negotiated%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0AJerusalem - %5Bb%5DStill to be Negotiated%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AShame that Arafat decided that the PR value of walking out of the negotiations was worth more than negotiating the continuing transition of Area C lands into Area B status and eventually into Area A %28Full Palestinian Control%29 status.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A|0
73|1|The great deal Israel offered to Palestine|IndianaGreen||19:13:47|02/04/2002|The West Bank and the Gaza Strip%2C captured in 1967%2C comprise 22%25 of pre-1948 Palestine.  When the Palestinians signed the Oslo Agreement in 1993 they agreed to accept only these 22%25 and recognize Israel within the Green Line borders. Conceding 78%25 of the land was a historical Palestinian compromise.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut this compromise was not enough for Barak. In his offer to the Palestinians%2C Barak demanded the following%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A69 settlements are included in this area%2C where 85%25 of the settlers live.  It is clearly visible that The blocs create impossible borders%2C which severely disrupt Palestinian life%0D%0Ain the West Bank.%0D%0A%0D%0AIn addition to the settlement blocs%2C Barak came up with another demand%3B%0D%0A%0D%0ATerritories that will be under %93Temporary Israeli Control%94. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe %93Temporary Control%94 concept is unique.  It refers to sovereign Palestinian land that will remain  under Israeli military and civil control for an indefinite time.  %0D%0A%0D%0AThe remains are %93The Generous Offers of Barak%85%94%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat appears to be territorial continuity is actually split up by settlement blocs%2C bypass roads and roadblocks.  The Palestinians have to relinquish land reserves essential for their development and absorption of refugees. They also have to accept Israeli supervision of borders crossings together with many other restrictions.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DThis is no generous offer.%0D%0A It is a humiliating demand for surrender%21%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AData in this document are based on the maps Barak showed Arafat in December 2000 and generally termed %93Barak%92s Generous Offers%94.%0D%0AThe Israeli public%2C media and academics use this description unwittingly.  This document sheds light on the offer and exposes the truth by examining the details %96 the offer is a pretense of generosity for the benefit of  the media%21%0D%0A%0D%0ABarak%92s offer gives Israel control over all the border crossings of the Palestinian State.  No country in the world would accept that. The words %93territorial continuity%94 are deceptive.  No Israeli would agree to travel 50 miles from one town to another%2C if the real distance between them is only 5 miles.%0D%0A%0D%0AThis impossible offer%2C Barak%92s imperious attitude%2C the ongoing massive construction in the settlements and Sharon%92s provocation %96 all these contributed to the inevitable explosion.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe %93generous offer%94 is a fig leaf that conceals the intentions of those who justify this war against the Palestinians.%0D%0A%0D%0AIn December%2C no maps of the Gaza Strip were shown%2C so we cannot illustrate Barak%92s intentions there.  At Taba%2C Barak presented a much-improved map. The Palestinians consider it a basis for negotiation.  But Barak repudiated it after his election defeat so there is no point in bringing it up.%0D%0A%0D%0AAny future negotiation must be based on the same historical compromise- 78%25 for Israel%2C 22%25 for Palestine.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DFLASH presentation of Barak%27s %22Generous Offer%22%3A%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.gush-shalom.org%2Fmedia%2Fbarak_eng.swf|0
74|1|bumping the original so we don%27t have to write ALL THIS again...|MikeGalos||00:28:49|02/11/2002|For the newbies %28According to Indy%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%23333333%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5D%5Bhr%5D%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22%233333FF%22 size%3D%221%22 face%3D%22Verdana%22%5DZionism means that Jews don%27t have to sit in the back of someone else%27s bus%2C they can drive their own.%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%2Ffont%5D|0